[kungpow]

http://www.honda.ca/HondaCA2006/Models/S2000/2009/Specs?L=E

Take S2000 for example, it only has 237HP and 162Torque. Why is the car so pricey at 50 grand with such low specs? Same with the CSX, TSX, TL, etc their numbers in terms of performance are so low.

Why doesn't Honda put more punch into their cars?

[death_blossom]

"put more punch into their cars"

one reason why is to keep their cars good on gas, a big selling point for any Honda. what car are you comparing with Hondas? the higher end of Hondas seem to have good powerplants, like the Acura TL or RL. the Accord has a pretty beefy v6 available as well.

[!LittleDragon]

Honda built their brand on fuel economy and reliability. HP goes up, those two go down.

[sas]

Honda does not create sport cars; they're fwd economical cars that are reliable. The problem is, when ppl throw an exhaust (actually, I shouldn't even say exhaust, Muffler or tip is more accurate) on their civic and mistake it for a dragster.

Your point of "underpowered" is also not that accurate. The TL has enough power in its class as does the CSX. You may be thinking that the CSX is $$ and overpriced, but it has adequate power for its perspective buyers. Honda knows this. Everyone Knows this. And they sell. Sometimes, ppl just want a civic with an Acura emblem.

Drive a TSX and S2k and you will find why they have sold well. You neglected the Accord and other vehicles which have more than enough power for a FWD vehicle without the issue of torque steer (yes I know about their SHAWD).

End of the day, Honda does not aim to win HP wars. They never have. The Civic Si back in the hey day, was the darling not because of its 127hp, but because it was nimble and fun to drive (how many j bodies back than did that?).

They do like to equip their cars with small brakes though. Anyone else remember when the EP3 came out with the small tires? That was quite comical.

[impactX]

The S2000 and RSX-S used to have "more" horsepower when they cheated; then SAE hp rating came in...

[kungpow]

Your point of "underpowered" is also not that accurate. The TL has enough power in its class as does the CSX. You may be thinking that the CSX is $$ and overpriced, but it has adequate power for its perspective buyers. Honda knows this. Everyone Knows this. And they sell. Sometimes, ppl just want a civic with an Acura emblem.


I got a mini cooper S convertible (172HP, 177ft-lbs) to drive around on the weekend and it's very responsive with the turbo charger. The 0-60mph is very close to the s2000 and gas mileage is pretty much the same as the s2000 or better.

Is just got me thinking why pay 50G for an s2000? I would expect more out of a car for 50G thus I would rather buy an BMW 335i convertible over the s2000 anytime.

[impactX]

I don't mind paying more for a car that looks better (though subjective) and is RWD.

[Blinky]

The S2000 is overpriced at Canadian MSRP. Used however, its price starts to make more sense. BTW a 335 cabrio is going to run far north of $50k and is in a different class than a S2000 anyways.

[sas]

I got a mini cooper S convertible (172HP, 177ft-lbs) to drive around on the weekend and it's very responsive with the turbo charger. The 0-60mph is very close to the s2000 and gas mileage is pretty much the same as the s2000 or better.

I understand your point, but you need to compare vehicles vs. their direct competition. As someone mentioned, the 335 is north of 50k. I would compare it to the Z4, SLK, Audi TT, Solstice, Mustang, Vette etc..

It stacks up pretty well, while def. not the fastest.

Honda's have never been cheap and you will never see them offering "employee price discounts" anytime soon.

You can pretty much argue that a fox body with 5k dropped into it will blow away.... well you know where I am going.

[marc0lishuz]

Pretty good for value, me thinks.

Like when I bought my Si, all other competitors were priced more and equipped less.

[asian_XL]

http://www.ridelust.com/wp-content/uploads/lotus_elise.jpg

[d1]

The S2000 and RSX-S used to have "more" horsepower when they cheated; then SAE hp rating came in...

Yeah no kidding. I'd much rather have the beast, 240hp ap1 than the 237hp weak sauce ap2.

[Eff-1]

Yeah no kidding. I'd much rather have the beast, 240hp ap1 than the 237hp weak sauce ap2.

How does 3 hp turn a "weak sauce" into a beast?

[TOPEC]

How does 3 hp turn a "weak sauce" into a beast?

ap1 was consider more lively because it didnt have traction/stability control, and the rear end was more drift happy where as the ap2 was more "tame" and numbed down

[Eff-1]

AP2 only introduced the VSA/traction on 06 and up. 04-05 AP2 had none of that.

Yes suspension changes were made to the AP2, but I guess I'm not one who thinks that snap oversteer tendencies are a positive thing...

[some_punk]

I havent driven a v6 honda product that was good on gas the TL was worse than my trans am.

[keifun]

I always thought the RSX type S was quite powerful in its class.. 210HP for a NA car which isnt bad.

[ilvtofu]

The 4 cylinders aren't good on power if u leave them stock, V6 is decent but uses loads more gas than any competitor V6 without giving much more power, I doubt it's much more reliable than toyota's too which is now being used in the evora :)

And the handling of stock Honda's aren't that great either, for around 30k I'd take a GTI over an SI anyday, more torque, DSG, More solid, tons of other plusses including the engine,

Honda used to be famous for reliability but now not so much, because everyone's engine quality has significantly improved in the last 10 years, even mercedes, (not saying a mercedes is more reliable than a honda, never in a million years...)

Most importantly though, reliability is a subjective thing and so is fuel economy, Prius drivers may find that their toyota doesn't get as good reliability or fuel economy as claimed, but what we can determine is track times :haha: and when it comes to those numbers none of the current stock honda lineup really has what it takes, when you take into consideration things like power:weight, and price.

[Blinky]

The 4 cylinders aren't good on power if u leave them stock, V6 is decent but uses loads more gas than any competitor V6 without giving much more power, I doubt it's much more reliable than toyota's too which is now being used in the evora :)

And the handling of stock Honda's aren't that great either, for around 30k I'd take a GTI over an SI anyday, more torque, DSG, More solid, tons of other plusses including the engine,

Honda used to be famous for reliability but now not so much, because everyone's engine quality has significantly improved in the last 10 years, even mercedes, (not saying a mercedes is more reliable than a honda, never in a million years...)

Most importantly though, reliability is a subjective thing and so is fuel economy, Prius drivers may find that their toyota doesn't get as good reliability or fuel economy as claimed, but what we can determine is track times :haha: and when it comes to those numbers none of the current stock honda lineup really has what it takes, when you take into consideration things like power:weight, and price.

Remember kids. Be cool--stay in school.

(I haven't even highlighted a bunch erroneous stuff in the quote above).

[jeffh]

simple, if you dont like the car, you arent its target market

a mini is a long long stretch off a true sports car like an s2000

and come talk to us about reliability when your mini hits 200k+

honda doesnt need big numbers to sell cars, its all about the soul of them

[jeffh]

The 4 cylinders aren't good on power

And the handling of stock Honda's aren't that great either,

Honda used to be famous for reliability but now not so much,

, but what we can determine is track times :haha: and when it comes to those numbers none of the current stock honda lineup really has what it takes, when you take into consideration things like power:weight, and price.


wat?

i read your post after the other guy made fun of your grammer, and man, you must be fucked

honda has an incredible track record with 4 cylinder motors, they were the first to break the 100hp per litre mark
they were the first to offer variable valve timing on a production car
Honda is a benchmark for reliability and quality of products

a stock civic si is faster around an autoX track than a gti, gti's are fat slow numb pigs, the honda just laques a bit of the tourqe that vw needs a turbo to make, a stock s2000 is still the car to have for AS class autocrossing and has been since 2000 when it came out.

what does price have to do with track times? the ridgeline won the baja 1000 last year in the stock category, integra type R's, s2000's, crx si and ef civic si's are all still winning trophees every year in the states at competition events, and the NSX was described in the early 90's as the car that made the exotics blush, as it would turn the same lap times as their current scrap with 1/3 of the horsepower

all in all, Honda is probably glad you arent out repping their cars, as you have no clue :haha:

[!Aznboi128]

some honda's are powered just enough

http://www.motorcities.com/media/image/640/05E21213518840K/2005-Ariel-Atom-Honda-Powered-Street-Legal-Mini-F1-K-640.jpeg

[orange7]

sport cars aren't all about hp, torque, and 0-60.

This thread reminds me of the thread where a guy thinks his v6 Camry is the best sport cars because it can outrun a rx-8 in 0-60, fuel economy, comfort, utilities, etc.


if you've never driven an s2k, you'll never understand. Then again, not everyone likes the s2k's ride feel.

[kungpow]

s
This thread reminds me of the thread where a guy thinks his v6 Camry is the best sport cars because it can outrun a rx-8 in 0-60, fuel economy, comfort, utilities, etc.


Sure he can outrun the rx-8 on a straight but when it comes to cornering, his camry's is going to wobble like a boat and go overboard lol.

[124Y]

sport cars aren't all about hp, torque, and 0-60.

This thread reminds me of the thread where a guy thinks his v6 Camry is the best sport cars because it can outrun a rx-8 in 0-60, fuel economy, comfort, utilities, etc.


if you've never driven an s2k, you'll never understand. Then again, not everyone likes the s2k's ride feel.

Fully agreed.

It's the "nature" of the car and the thrill you get from driving it that makes it sporty.

[orange7]

Why doesn't Honda put more punch into their cars?

because they don't want to.

[Qmx323]

VTAK Y0!!!11!!

[Kamui712]

how much HP do you need to drive around vancouver? unless you need to win every stop light race I can't see the real need for tons of HP.

I had a v6, drive an i4 now and I get everywhere in the same amount of time.

[kungpow]

how much HP do you need to drive around vancouver? unless you need to win every stop light race I can't see the real need for tons of HP.


It really depends on your driving style. I don't need a lot of horsepower for the daily commute or to get around but I do need the horsepower (5-6 second car) and good car dynamics for the leisure car to take out for a spin to cypress/squamish.

[tonyvu]

not really... they are okay for horsepower... the new accord has a pretty beefy V6

[Kamui712]

It really depends on your driving style. I don't need a lot of horsepower for the daily commute or to get around but I do need the horsepower (5-6 second car) and good car dynamics for the leisure car to take out for a spin to cypress/squamish.

well ya that's understandable for the extra hp. my point was that driving in van, even w/lots of extra hp you won't get anywhere much faster bcs there are so many cars + traffic lights.

[Euro7r]

No point in having a powerful car. A Honda Civic is more than enough for traffic in this city. Tons of drivers having the balls to drive 40km on the city street.

[death_blossom]

wat?

i read your post after the other guy made fun of your grammer, and man, you must be fucked

honda has an incredible track record with 4 cylinder motors, they were the first to break the 100hp per litre mark
they were the first to offer variable valve timing on a production car
Honda is a benchmark for reliability and quality of products

a stock civic si is faster around an autoX track than a gti, gti's are fat slow numb pigs, the honda just laques a bit of the tourqe that vw needs a turbo to make, a stock s2000 is still the car to have for AS class autocrossing and has been since 2000 when it came out.

what does price have to do with track times? the ridgeline won the baja 1000 last year in the stock category, integra type R's, s2000's, crx si and ef civic si's are all still winning trophees every year in the states at competition events, and the NSX was described in the early 90's as the car that made the exotics blush, as it would turn the same lap times as their current scrap with 1/3 of the horsepower

all in all, Honda is probably glad you arent out repping their cars, as you have no clue :haha:

jeff, you make lots of good points. and I agree that Honda makes some brilliant and very racey engines. but most ppl can't take advantage of what Honda has to offer as they want low-end power for daily driving. not to mention most ppl are afraid to stomp on the gas pedal. I think the OP prefers an engine with low-mid range grunt.

[achiam]

wat?

i read your post after the other guy made fun of your grammer, and man, you must be fucked

the honda just laques a bit of the tourqe

GRAMMAR

LACKS

TORQUE

Fuck! At least hold a proper command of the English language when you land here from Hong Kong! You're making myself and other Chinese Canadian immigrants look torrid!

[wouwou]

they are not under powered

they are over priced.

[ecsw]

sport cars aren't all about hp, torque, and 0-60.

This thread reminds me of the thread where a guy thinks his v6 Camry is the best sport cars because it can outrun a rx-8 in 0-60, fuel economy, comfort, utilities, etc.


if you've never driven an s2k, you'll never understand. Then again, not everyone likes the s2k's ride feel.

lol. this thread also reminds me of that too... oh wait, that thread was created by me. :D
now it was also claimed Rav4 V6 does 0-60 in 6 seconds. :p

[ecsw]

Sure he can outrun the rx-8 on a straight but when it comes to cornering, his camry's is going to wobble like a boat and go overboard lol.

that's what most ppl told the guy with v6 camry, but he insisted with daily drive, straight acceleration is more important and there's not much to make turn anyway. :rolleyes:

[shenmecar]

they are not under powered

they are over priced.

they are neither.

Compare a MDX to a FX35.

Both got around 300hp. yet the FX is more expensive.

When you shop for an Acura around the year end sale, you really notice the difference. Last year they were selling the MDX/CSX for 10G's off for last years models.

[vo_hantu]

Wait, wait, wait.

Your first problem is that you are a dude driving a mini cooper convertible :D

[Kamui712]

^LOL

[Adsdeman]

They rev high, power is all at the top! Doesnt need to have 500hp to be quick around a track.

[Tapioca]

In the late 80s and early 90s, Honda sold a lot of cars because they provided pretty decent value. Sure, they didn't have great numbers, but they provided decent handling (for FWD cars) and had relatively advanced suspensions (double-wishbone suspensions were considered 'elite' in those days.) Also, the seat fabrics and interior materials were pretty darn good compared to the rest of the competition. Moreover, most Hondas had great ergonomics and low cowls which made them easy to drive and park (notice that for the average 5'10" to 6' guy, the driving position just works?). Of course I'm biased, but after sitting in some new cars, I think that my 17 year old Integra has better quality materials than some cars today with fabric inserts in the doors and vinyl that doesn't look nor feel cheap (which after a bit of fading has stood the test of time.)

[q0192837465]

I really like the new TSX. But I do think it needs a bit more power. But on second thot, 4 cyclinder w/ 200hp is more than enough for the city.

[Kamui712]

last winter i literally drove my 95 civic everyday w/out problems of going up hill or being stuck with the snow. i didn't see many high hp pow wow vehicles moving, i even waved at a few as i drove by =)

my 3000K civic > 60K+ pow wows.

[skyxx]

What you need is torque. :)

[ilvtofu]

Remember kids. Be cool--stay in school.

(I haven't even highlighted a bunch erroneous stuff in the quote above).

You worry about stuff like apostrophes and capitalization on a forum?

get a lifes

[Topgrinder]

very underpowered

[tool001]

I really like the new TSX. But I do think it needs a bit more power. But on second thot, 4 cyclinder w/ 200hp is more than enough for the city.


tsx v6 being rel. in 2010
http://www.acura.com/ModelLanding.aspx?model=TSX

[ilvtofu]

wat?

i read your post after the other guy made fun of your grammer, and man, you must be fucked

honda has an incredible track record with 4 cylinder motors, they were the first to break the 100hp per litre mark
they were the first to offer variable valve timing on a production car
Honda is a benchmark for reliability and quality of products

a stock civic si is faster around an autoX track than a gti, gti's are fat slow numb pigs, the honda just laques a bit of the tourqe that vw needs a turbo to make, a stock s2000 is still the car to have for AS class autocrossing and has been since 2000 when it came out.

what does price have to do with track times? the ridgeline won the baja 1000 last year in the stock category, integra type R's, s2000's, crx si and ef civic si's are all still winning trophees every year in the states at competition events, and the NSX was described in the early 90's as the car that made the exotics blush, as it would turn the same lap times as their current scrap with 1/3 of the horsepower

all in all, Honda is probably glad you arent out repping their cars, as you have no clue :haha:


Please learn to read, I did state that current hondas at the dealership simply just don't give much bang for the $, CRX SIs, NSX, Type R integra... S2000 is practically obsolete too.

The baja 1000 win is the first after 3 years, and all the engine, transmission, suspension, spaceframe, tires have been tweaked by honda, and please don't try to tell me that's a stock car even though it's in a stock series and even then, the baja series is largely driver based, unlike F1 which is largely a display of the manufacturer

as it would turn the same lap times as their current scrap with 1/3 of the horsepower

examples please

But maybe I'll give one
NSX vs cheaper 911, similar power, similar track times

Now don't get me wrong I like the S2k, but if you're trying to tell me that's worth 50k, even after almost 10 years on the market...

This thread is all about performance, and bang for the buck, HP per litre doesn't help...

And all this about being first and innovative, that's not what the OP is buying... it doesn't matter NO ONE GIVES A SHIT it's the present that matters

Sure a GTi needs a turbo, but for the same price as an Si it's more practical, powerful, better gearbox, stiffer chassis, better interior, Just as good on gas.
The Si weighs a good 400lbs less than the GTi so come on... with only 10 hp less, it has so much going for it, lower centre of gravity, massive weight difference, coupe shape why is it only a tiny bit better on the track if better at all?

As an everyday runabout sports car GTI FTW anyday

and to an answer to the OP's question, YES

[Great68]

When I was shopping for a new car and I took one look at a Civic Si and said "If I have to run premium gas, It's going to have enough power to be worth it" and then I moved along.

[Blinky]

You worry about stuff like apostrophes and capitalization on a forum?

get a lifes

Actually the first thing I noticed was how you don't understand the difference between subjective and objective judgements. Then I realized how much incoherent dumbassery was evident in the rest of your post and decided to do what I did.

Seriously. Stay in school... or beg them to let you back in.

While you're at it, learn to read:

This thread is all about performance, and bang for the buck, HP per litre doesn't help...

And all this about being first and innovative, that's not what the OP is buying...

Thread title: Are Honda cars under powered?(sic)

I would say for most Honda models (for their intended applications), they are not. It appears that the buying populace shares my view.

[kroy546]

speakin of power, honda makes pretty good power for their engine sizes..
but i have never heard of any1 saying that power from honda is underrated tho..
anyways, it is just, different car for different people, if you want a beefy car with tons of low end torque, you are probably looking for a tow truck or something along the line, honda is all about reliability and simplicity and that makes every honda product more expensive than its competitors..for example: lawn mower......

[kungpow]

And all this about being first and innovative, that's not what the OP is buying... it doesn't matter NO ONE GIVES A SHIT it's the present that matters


I can't agree more. Take for example the mazdaspeed3 car for 30grand:
http://ca.askmen.com/cars/car_vs_car/35_car_vs_car.html

0-60mph in 5.5seconds, now that's top stuff for the price and the car dynamics is decent too! It may not be the best looking car but still beat the looks of Honda cars and beats the hell out of Honda cars in terms of performance.

[d1]

I can't agree more. Take for example the mazdaspeed3 car for 30grand:
http://ca.askmen.com/cars/car_vs_car/35_car_vs_car.html

0-60mph in 5.5seconds, now that's top stuff for the price and the car dynamics is decent too! It may not be the best looking car but still beat the looks of Honda cars and beats the hell out of Honda cars in terms of performance.

You drive a mini cooper S, correct?
Lets see: MS3 - 263hp, Civic Si - 197hp, Mini Cooper S - 172hp. Sure the MS3 beats out it's Honda competition but it rapes your Cooper as well. The speed3 is also as fast as, if not faster than the 350z, s2000, c350, bmw 3-series, 645, and a bunch of other cars that cost twice as much, so the thread can be changed to: Are Honda, Mini, Nissan, Mercedes, and BMW cars under powered?

[orange7]

Kungpow dislikes honda cars because he feels they are not worth their value.
(Okay, I'm fine with that because everyone here has freedom of speech.)

No matter what happens in this thread, he is still going to hate honda cars, so why bother making this thread if he's going to hate them no matter what some of us say?

There is only one explanation to all this, and it is because Kungpow is not one of honda's targeted customers.

[skyxx]

^ He only likes chicken......

[orange7]

^
maybe..

but i do like chicken. don't you?

[bcrdukes]

You drive a mini cooper S, correct?
Lets see: MS3 - 263hp, Civic Si - 197hp, Mini Cooper S - 172hp. Sure the MS3 beats out it's Honda competition but it rapes your Cooper as well. The speed3 is also as fast as, if not faster than the 350z, s2000, c350, bmw 3-series, 645, and a bunch of other cars that cost twice as much, so the thread can be changed to: Are Honda, Mini, Nissan, Mercedes, and BMW cars under powered?

Not to mention, the MS3 is powered by a forced-induction based motor while the S is still FI'd, it's supercharged. As for the Civic SI, naturally aspirated. Looks like Kungpow needs to figure out the difference between apples, oranges, and bananas. :rolleyes:

[spenny]

not to mention the MS3 is like 6g more then a Civic Si. It's like comparing the MS3 to an STI, 135i, Evo, or 370z.

I drove the GTI before buying my Si, and it wasnt as much fun. Yes is has torque, but it disappears far before the redline which left me disappointed. It also doesnt have an LSD which I think all semi-powerful FWDs should have. I drove a MS3, and it was quick but wasnt worth the extra money to me. I drove the WRX and it felt like a family car, similar power curve as the GTI and was killed by a 5 speed manual.

Yea, the Si isnt fast. But neither are cars your comparing it to. To me it comes down to fun, and I thought the Si was more fun then the other cars I drove. If I wanted something fast, there are way better (not to mention cheaper) options then a new MS3, GTI or WRX.

[jlenko]

The thing I don't like about Honda engines... they have to rev high to make horsepower... and they still lack sufficient torque to climb hills. I live on Burnaby Mountain.. we have big hills. I visit North Van often, even more hills.

Example: going over the Coquihalla, some punk in a Civic passed me on every flat stretch, like a bat outta hell.... but every single hill, I passed him in my stock Crapalier like he was standing still... I didn't change my speed (average 130 km/h, yes I know.. speeding.. who cares..)... but still managed to catch up to him.

It's not like my Cavalier is anything special... but it's got a nice flat torque curve that starts at 120 ft/lbs at 1000 rpm, yet tops out at 150 ft/lbs at 4000 rpm... which means I can drive around the city, shifting normally at 2000 rpm, and having no problems climbing hills, curbs, pedestrians, etc... I don't have to rev it to 6500 rpm to pass people. And low revs means better gas mileage...


And the worst part about a modified Honda... especially those of you with fart cannons... they rev so high to make any power, that I go deaf in my car sitting next to you... argh!

[bcrdukes]

The thing I don't like about Honda engines... they have to rev high to make horsepower... and they still lack sufficient torque to climb hills. I live on Burnaby Mountain.. we have big hills. I visit North Van often, even more hills.And the worst part about a modified Honda... especially those of you with fart cannons... they rev so high to make any power, that I go deaf in my car sitting next to you... argh!

Some people like to think they're F1 race car drivers. Honda does a very good job in helping people achieve that dream of theirs. :p

[spenny]

The thing I don't like about Honda engines... they have to rev high to make horsepower... and they still lack sufficient torque to climb hills. I live on Burnaby Mountain.. we have big hills. I visit North Van often, even more hills.

Example: going over the Coquihalla, some punk in a Civic passed me on every flat stretch, like a bat outta hell.... but every single hill, I passed him in my stock Crapalier like he was standing still... I didn't change my speed (average 130 km/h, yes I know.. speeding.. who cares..)... but still managed to catch up to him.

It's not like my Cavalier is anything special... but it's got a nice flat torque curve that starts at 120 ft/lbs at 1000 rpm, yet tops out at 150 ft/lbs at 4000 rpm... which means I can drive around the city, shifting normally at 2000 rpm, and having no problems climbing hills, curbs, pedestrians, etc... I don't have to rev it to 6500 rpm to pass people. And low revs means better gas mileage...


And the worst part about a modified Honda... especially those of you with fart cannons... they rev so high to make any power, that I go deaf in my car sitting next to you... argh!

You're ripping on Civics and you drive a Cavalier?

[Kamui712]

^ so true, hills = loose for me
I'm ok if i speed up near the bottom and get a good run at it, but if there's someone say driving a corolla in front of me i end up turtling it up the hill.

[Great68]

Not to mention, the MS3 is powered by a forced-induction based motor while the S is still FI'd, it's supercharged. As for the Civic SI, naturally aspirated. Looks like Kungpow needs to figure out the difference between apples, oranges, and bananas. :rolleyes:

While one may be N/A and the other may be Turbo, they are still considered to be in the same CLASS ie: Both are the most hopped up version of that manufacturer's compact econobox. Magazine reviews group the Si with MS3, Cobalt SS, GTI, WRX etc...

If the Civic Si had 260 Naturally aspirated horsepower instead of 197, would you still say it's "Apples to oranges"?

not to mention the MS3 is like 6g more then a Civic Si.

It's closer than you think when you consider the options.

Let's do some math here:
(Rounded numbers for simplicity)

Si: 27K
MS3: 32K

Now, an Si comes stock with 17" rims, an MS3 comes with 18's.

For Honda upgrade to 18" rims, add: $1900

An MS3 comes stock with a 6 disc changer. If you want Honda's changer, add: $900.

So just TWO options on the Civic, which are standard on the MS3 bring it to within 3 Grand of the MS3.

Not to mention the MS3 has HID's, Fully automatic climate control, Rain Sensing wipers, Limited Slip Diff, etc.

[shenmecar]

MS3 has quite a lot of goodies. Even rain sensing wipers O.o

[rsx]

Wait, wait, wait.

Your first problem is that you are a dude driving a mini cooper convertible :D

beat me to it.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[ecsw]

Not sure if Mazda is a good example here.

Mazda is suppose to be a bit cheaper than Honda. I found all of my Honda has better quality than all of my Mazda. I bought Mazda because of the cheaper price.

[Blue92]

This thread is full of fail...

Mini Cooper S as fast as an S2000? Really???...no.

and the guy who thinks the AP1 has more power than the AP2... *face palm. They were measured on two different scales...

I don't really see a problem with the power output of most Honda's...I would like to see them equip their "sporty" cars with better tires in the NA market though, especially the Acura's.

[jeffh]

GRAMMAR

LACKS

TORQUE

Fuck! At least hold a proper command of the English language when you land here from Hong Kong! You're making myself and other Chinese Canadian immigrants look torrid!

im white, borne and raised right here in BC
i make you immigrants look bad by nature, dont like it? go home


as for the ms3 vs si debate, you dont read about civics motor mounts falling apart with 2000ms on them, Mazda has a service bulletin on the speed

and id like to see 6 years down the road when its trade in time, the SI owner is going to be downright laughing in the face of the ms3 owner.

[Great68]

as for the ms3 vs si debate, you dont read about civics motor mounts falling apart with 2000ms on them, Mazda has a service bulletin on the speed
.

Nah, you hear about the transmissions grinding themselves to death instead. Oh but Honda has a service bulletin out for the Si, released after ignoring protests by owners for a long time.
http://consumerist.com/384246/protesting-honda-civic-si-get-transmission-tsb

[46_valentinor]

the s2000 is outdated now and its not worth 50 grand for it, however it is still a BLAST to drive compared to other cars such as 335s, 135s and z4s. Sure the 335s and 135s have more torque and power, but for dd i find them pretty boring and not as raw as the s2000 in the corners. I also think that the low end power and long revs makes it even better, cause there's nothing like watching the revs slowly climb pass 5k and BOOM the power kicks in and the engine screams to 9k, well there is the r6 with a redline of 17k and power delivery at 10k but that is another story. =D

[spenny]

Let's do some math here:
(Rounded numbers for simplicity)

Si: 27K
MS3: 32K

Now, an Si comes stock with 17" rims, an MS3 comes with 18's.

For Honda upgrade to 18" rims, add: $1900

An MS3 comes stock with a 6 disc changer. If you want Honda's changer, add: $900.

So just TWO options on the Civic, which are standard on the MS3 bring it to within 3 Grand of the MS3.

Not to mention the MS3 has HID's, Fully automatic climate control, Rain Sensing wipers, Limited Slip Diff, etc.


Hmm.. if you want to do math. Now, I'm lazy and I wont check these, so correct me if I'm wrong but..

Yes, I will say the MS3 is faster then an Si (which does have an LSD btw). But if you dont mind turning on your windshield wipers, adjusting your own HVAC controls, can see without HIDs, dont actually use CDs anymore, and the prefer a more comfortable ride of the 17" wheels (even though the factory all-seasons suck balls) to the heavy overpriced OEM HFP 18" wheels..

2010 Civic Si - $26,880 ($31,950.75 total off Honda site)
with a 48 month finance - $677.94/mth @ 0.9%IR
48 month total = $32,061.12

2010 MS3 - $32,995 ($38,599.45 total off Mazda site)
with a 48 month finace - $869.81/mth @ 3.9%IR
48 month total = $41,750.88

$41,750.88 - $32,061.12 = $9689.76

(I did the math on a 135i and 370z too and theyre just over 10g more in total compared to a MS3)

If I round my numbers thats a $10,000 difference. Thats a lot of scratch for a ricer. Think how many fart cans I can buy!?

But yea, thats if the websites numbers are close to correct.. as I know there are fees for this and that all over the place.

OK for fun I decided to do a GTI (4 door as both the MS3 and Si are 4 doors) with zero options as well.

2009 GTI - $28,975.00 ($30,335.00 total off VW website)
with a 48 month finance - $738.04/mth at 1.9%IR (was closer to 4% when I was looking at one)
48 month total = $35,425.92

$3,364.80 more then an Si.

[Great68]

Hmm.. if you want to do math. Now, I'm lazy and I wont check these, so correct me if I'm wrong but..

Yes, I will say the MS3 is faster then an Si (which does have an LSD btw). But if you dont mind turning on your windshield wipers, adjusting your own HVAC controls, can see without HIDs, dont actually use CDs anymore, and the prefer a more comfortable ride of the 17" wheels (even though the factory all-seasons suck balls) to the heavy overpriced OEM HFP 18" wheels..


What's that sound I just heard???

It's my point flying right over your head.

You pay more because you GET more. Whether you want those options or not.

Get it?

Your analogy is like going to a BMW dealer and saying "Can I get my M3 with plastic hub caps and a tape deck? I don't need all that fancy stuff the car normally comes with"

[spenny]

Exactly. Since we're comparing cars the way you compare cars. The 370z is a much better choice then then MS3. Oh wait. The C63 is way better choice then the 350z. No.. You've gotta get the GTR because the C63 doesnt have automatic fart sensing devices.

So dont buy a Si, a GTR is a much better choice. You get what you pay for kids.

[Great68]

:facepalm:

[spenny]

:facepalm: x10

[CivicTypeRice]

:facepalm:
Was that the look you mother had when she found out she was pregnant with you.

[EagleSpeaker]

im white, borne and raised right here in BC
i make you immigrants look bad by nature, dont like it? go home


white > immigrants

fucking immigrants, hate them

[Great68]

Was that the look you mother had when she found out she was pregnant with you.

Oh did I hurt your wittle Si loving fewwings?

Awwww.

[Great68]

:facepalm: x10

See your logic admits the MS3 is so awesome it belongs in a class with RWD sports cars.

Not in a class with other FWD sport compacts where one would typically think it belongs.

[spenny]

Now now, no personal attacks.. whats wrong with a good debate?

My logic is that the MS3 costs 10g more then an Si. It's like comparing the MS3 to a car that costs 10g more then it, like a 370z for example. I sure hope the 370z is better, because it costs 10g more. See?

Actually I think a good comparison is the Cobalt SSTC to the MS3 and Si. Similar (if not more) performance compared to a MS3, but cheaper then an Si.

I can hear "But its a Cobalt!" already...but isnt a Mazda a Ford when it comes down to it?

[Great68]

Now now, no personal attacks.. whats wrong with a good debate?

Actually I think a good comparison is the Cobalt SSTC to the MS3 and Si. Similar (if not more) performance compared to a MS3, but cheaper then an Si.

I can hear "But its a Cobalt!" already...but isnt a Mazda a Ford when it comes down to it?

Personal attacks? I have not initiated any.

I have not even slammed on the Civic, but CivicTypeRice seems to be a passionate Si owner that has misinterpreted what I have said.

The Cobalt drives amazing, I almost bought one. But on that balance of performance vs luxury it's very lop sided. 10 years ago I would have said "Fuck I want the fastest thing out there, who cares what amenities it's got".

[CivicTypeRice]

Personal attacks? I have not initiated any.

I have not even slammed on the Civic, but CivicTypeRice seems to be a passionate Si owner whom has misinterpreted what I have said.

The Cobalt drives amazing, I almost bought one. But on that balance of performance vs luxury it's very lop sided. 10 years ago I would have said "Fuck I want the fastest thing out there, who cares what amenities it's got".
Fixed.

[pandalove]

this thread is fail

[spenny]

Personal attacks? I have not initiated any.

I have not even slammed on the Civic, but CivicTypeRice seems to be a passionate Si owner that has misinterpreted what I have said.

The Cobalt drives amazing, I almost bought one. But on that balance of performance vs luxury it's very lop sided. 10 years ago I would have said "Fuck I want the fastest thing out there, who cares what amenities it's got".

Yea, I wasnt talking to you about the personal attack crap. Anyway.

I agree, with the MS3 you do get what you pay for, with more money you get more performance and more features/options. But you also get what you pay for with an Si, 370z or even the Cobalt SS (questionable reliability, lol).

[ilvtofu]

Cobalt SS has decent reliability, it's just ugly as shit and has worse in class interior. LMFAO

If you're looking for bang for the buck then an EVO GSR or STI base for around 40k would be your best bet. Just look at the top gear times, those 2 are fast! much faster than a 370Z. I do admit the 370 is way nicer to look at and interior is way better though but thats what u pay for i guess.

WRX 265 is a much better car than the 227 hp one btw.

[Jackygor]

Were Ms3 affected by the hitting the side of the door when the locks open thing?

[shenmecar]

Were Ms3 affected by the hitting the side of the door when the locks open thing?

no, only the earliest mazda 3 were.

[Adsdeman]

Not if there booooosted like my old one!

[boibuddha]

To answer the OP's question, Honda engines do lack the torque of their competitors. Honda makes up for this with shorter gearing in their transmissions. I'm not familiar with the newer Honda 6 speeds but the older engines would be spinning at 3000 RPM while doing 105 KPH.

[vo_hantu]

How much hp/torque do you guys need to get around town?

Seems like some of you want to go uphill or pass people on 5th or 6th gear.

I have a newer civic, no problem going uphill. It's called momemtum and proper gear.

[ilvtofu]

^agreed, pretty much all the cars for sale in canada, even a smart, has enough power for the city.

But since this is RS we're going for a bit more spirited driving

[shenmecar]

^
RS people prefer going sideways yelling "POWER"

[roastpuff]

Then both the MS3 and Si are wrong cars for RS people then.

Fox-body Mustang 5.0? :D

[pandalove]

^
RS people prefer going sideways yelling "POWER"

what ya expect .... we are a generation raised on initial D :P

[ilvtofu]

yeah... DRIFTO!!!
FWD FTL!!!

[1990TSI]

I'm surprised no one brought up the Gen coupe in the SI/MS3/Cobalt etc. comparison.

civic SI is one of the worst possible value vehicles out there right now. and at the end of the day it's still fwd haha

[ilvtofu]

Genesis coupe V6 FTW!!! I love it!

[1990TSI]

I still have to drive one. a lot of people have told me great things about them. unfortunatly when you get to the V6 track pricing, there are better options available.

base model 2.0T FTW, nothing even close in it's class ....yet.

when nissan comes out with it's "new" silvia I'll trade up

[pandalove]

I'm surprised no one brought up the Gen coupe in the SI/MS3/Cobalt etc. comparison.

civic SI is one of the worst possible value vehicles out there right now. and at the end of the day it's still fwd haha

at the end of the day ... any car on the street is still a street car
theres no point to anything therse always a car faster then the nxt ... its all depends on preferences and driving style

[spenny]

I'm surprised no one brought up the Gen coupe in the SI/MS3/Cobalt etc. comparison.

civic SI is one of the worst possible value vehicles out there right now. and at the end of the day it's still fwd haha

lol, have fun with your super amazing RWD Hyundai. Check out the massive numbers this thing has put down! :haha:

http://www.grimmspeed.com/images/Genesis/dyno_baseline_vs_adjustment.jpg

[d1]

lol, have fun with your super amazing RWD Hyundai. Check out the massive numbers this thing has put down! :haha:

What are you trying to get at? The Si probably has around the same peak whp but a lot less torque. Genesis wins.

[ilvtofu]

Yeah that's really not bad for a 26k? sports coupe, i doubt the SI puts down that kinda power and IMO doesn't look as good

[Meowjin]

I like the power my tl puts out. It's enough for me :)

[J-Chow]

Yeah that's really not bad for a 26k? sports coupe, i doubt the SI puts down that kinda power and IMO doesn't look as good

don't forget,

the new 2.0t genesis although is I4 turbocharged, uses 87 Octane :haha:
Regular gas FTW !!

I went to the Hyundai dealership this week at Richmond Auto Mall just to take a quick peek at the genesis.

[ilvtofu]

^oh shit that's awesome!!! my 300zx needs 89 :(
Wow It's probably way faster, handles better, and better on gas than my car

[GordonTse]

Yeah that's really not bad for a 26k? sports coupe, i doubt the SI puts down that kinda power and IMO doesn't look as good

people have put down 175-180whp stock, but a lot less torque. and do you see many intakes(for a honda) putting down 8whp, 10ft.lb? t1r carbon intake did, and thats on a dyno. colder/denser air with the ram air scoop while driving = more power. VTAAAAK!

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h70/lilsicsoul/vtak-1.gif

[Noizz]

What are you trying to get at? The Si probably has around the same peak whp but a lot less torque. Genesis wins.

Genesis also weighs 400 lbs more.

Si has LSD standard, you have to get the Genesis GT to get LSD

[Kamui712]

^oh shit that's awesome!!! my 300zx needs 89 :(
Wow It's probably way faster, handles better, and better on gas than my car

the prelude uses 91 =(

[Jackygor]

Genesis also weighs 400 lbs more.

Si has LSD standard, you have to get the Genesis GT to get LSD

Genesis has a turbo and RWD as standard...

[orange7]

The Genesis beats the Mini cooper as well.

[wahyinghung]

Well they used to be especially the regular plain old civic. However over the years the civic has gotten a larger engine one gen after the next and their engine nowadays are pretty much on par with the competition imho

[vo_hantu]

Would you guys buy a hyundai?

...over ms3, Si, GTi or whatever we are comparing in its class.

[cho]

i like my honda cause it has VTAKKKKKK

[Great68]

The si and genesis 2.0T are about equal in terms of performance, both around .9 on the skidpad and average 15 second 1/4 mile times. The genesis is a touch cheaper.

But really, they are two completely separate classes of cars and shouldn't really be compared together. FWD sport compact vs RWD sport coupe....

[!SG]

my first car was a prelude. it had the 2.3L. i checked the engine specs and they are almost identical with the mazda3's 2.3L, from hp numbers, tq numbers, and even redline.

it was plenty of enough to work with as a first car. both cars were fun to drive too for their price range.

[!Aznboi128]

wait I thought we all have a little jermy clarkson in us

yelling POWER! every time we mash on the gas

[Noizz]

Genesis has a turbo and RWD as standard...

And yet the Hyundai only manages to be on par with the Si. Even though it has the advantage of a turbo and RWD.

The si and genesis 2.0T are about equal in terms of performance, both around .9 on the skidpad and average 15 second 1/4 mile times. The genesis is a touch cheaper.

But really, they are two completely separate classes of cars and shouldn't really be compared together. FWD sport compact vs RWD sport coupe....

[Jackygor]

Would you guys buy a hyundai?

...over ms3, Si, GTi or whatever we are comparing in its class.

Get over yourself, Hyundai is not a shitty brand that it once is, it makes cars more than comparable to the likes of ms3, Si, or the GTi. Unless it was a serious question, yes I would since they are in the same price range.

[vo_hantu]

I don't know about the performance on the hyundai, but I know the K20 engines respond very well with bolt-ons. Stupid good actually.

!SG - that's a nice first car. Mine was an 89 camry!

[!Yaminashi]

Would you guys buy a hyundai?

...over ms3, Si, GTi or whatever we are comparing in its class.

I'd rather buy the MS3 than the Genesis, actually over all the cars you listed
I wouldnt even have to do any sort of engine mods, its already a beast stock

[Jackygor]

And yet the Hyundai only manages to be on par with the Si. Even though it has the advantage of a turbo and RWD.

I never doubted Civic SI's performance, however, the OP's question (he probably shouldn't have opened this can of worm on RS LOL) was if honda cars are underpowered, then it slowly drifted to which car is good bang for bucks. My argument is that the Genesis coupe is good bang for buck because its RWD and it has a turbo. RWD, in comparison to FWD platform, cost more to manufacture, so technically, you are getting "more" from the genesis. The advantages of turbo and RWD goes beyond its stock form, the main advantage of both is so you can efficiently lay down the added power (if you wish to mod it) at a much cheaper price compared to the SI.

[1990TSI]

I don't know about the performance on the hyundai, but I know the K20 engines respond very well with bolt-ons. Stupid good actually.

turbo cars are waay easier to make power with, and for cheaper. Genesis gets 10hp 12tq for free, with 5 mins worth of work. how much does it cost to get that out of an SI?

one downfall is hyundai engeneered the exhaust and intake so well that you can't make any power with aftermarket intake or exhaust until you go to a bigger turbo.

just wait till someone gets inside the ECU and the real power will unfold, for cheap.

[CivicTypeRice]

Conclusion: MS3,SI,Genesis,Mini Cooper-S would all have their ass fed to them by a stock 17 year old 5.0 mustang with 275000kms on the motor.

If you think Honda's are underpowerd and torque less,dont't buy one.

[ilvtofu]

Well a 5.0 Mustang is pretty much a POS

But how about a modern V6 camaro, way more power than any of these imports and looks cooler

[hk20000]

V6 Camaro I wouldn't count on them for being much of a performer....that's like V6 Stangs....

[Ferra]

Honda isn't about sport car (at least not anymore)
They are now focusing on the major crowds, such as your mom and dad who wants an economical and reliable car for "transportation"

and 50k for an s2000 is just silly

[CivicTypeRice]

Honda isn't about sport car (at least not anymore)
They are now focusing on the major crowds, such as your mom and dad who wants an economical and reliable car for "transportation"

and 50k for an s2000 is just silly
LOL....So you're suggesting that s2k's and Si's are for moms and dads?
If thats the case, I wish my mom would buy an ITR.

[death_blossom]

V6 Camaro I wouldn't count on them for being much of a performer....that's like V6 Stangs....

Doesn't the new V6 Camaro have something like 300hp?

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

s2k underpower lol


240hp 162 torque , have u look at weight ratio first?


do you see s2k slower than rx-8, or 350z in its class?


despite the 40hp more on the 350z and like 100 pounds more torque which makes up for the extra weight, u dont see s2k trailing a bus length behind 350z do you?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

guess you gonna complain a Lotus elise is underpower too

name how many 2.0L N/A without force induction that makes 200hp +, none and over 200 pounds of torque? no car manufacture in history can do it

[!SG]

horse power is nice, but torque is where its at.

not knocking the s2k, but the whole point was to show the world that honda can squeeze so much hp out of such a small displacement NA engine. its still an awesome fun car to drive and it feels very nimble compared to the 350z.

the veq35 was proven many times to be a very good engine, adaptable right across the whole nissan board of cars.

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

I'd rather buy the MS3 than the Genesis, actually over all the cars you listed
I wouldnt even have to do any sort of engine mods, its already a beast stock

werd

i heart MS3 absolutely every inch of my heart

best $30g spent, 260hp 280 torque

Hyundai? no thank you


SE or samsung?
Sony or Samsung/LG?
if all of them are in similar price range

simple

[kungpow]

I saw a Honda Prelude that's year <1999 (definitely not the latest generation one, probably the one before) today and it was just cruising with a Honda 600RR motorcycle on the s2s.

What impresses me was that the prelude was blazing fast and kept up with the bike the whole time. They were probably doing 160-210 in the corners and just a couple car lengths apart.

What kinda of engine would be under the hood of that prelude and rough estimate of the HP and torque? It was not stock for sure as it was plowing up the hill like it had 500ft-lbs. It was impressive on the amounts of power that prelude put out even though they shouldn't have been cruising so fast.

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

H22 2.2L 200hp 155ish torque


probably forced induction


stock prelude is pretty slow

[death_blossom]

^
also, the chassis of the BB6 prelude is quite heavy. I wouldn't doubt the Prelude was modified to give it better acceleration and handling. perhaps the 600RR wasn't being ridden to the full limit of the bike's potential? also, cars can be more faster and stable on corners since they have more tire touching the pavement.

[1990TSI]

seeing cars on the highway isn't the best way to judge their performance.

Last time I went to kelowna I rolled with a bentley, bike, G35c and some AMG mercedes, and we did hope-kelowna in less than an hour and a half. we did 180-220 most of the way, but it still doesn't put my car in the same ranks as the bentley or the bike.

http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs006.snc1/4165_122222035224_529405224_3104157_2728471_n.jpg (bike was behind us at the time)

as for the prelude, my friend had an 02, and our other friends turbo fireflea with a ghetto boost controller was faster. preludes FTL

[Kamui712]

as for the prelude, my friend had an 02, and our other friends turbo fireflea with a ghetto boost controller was faster. preludes FTL

clearly you know nothing about preludes, they were discontinued in 01

[ilvtofu]

Doesn't the new V6 Camaro have something like 300hp?

yup, he's just like any other close minded individual who judged the book by it's cover, It's got 300hp and independent suspension

3.6 with 304hp, weighs about 3700lbs-38000, not bad at all
Good on gas too under 12L/100km in the city rating.

I would totally buy one if i had the money :(

[Great68]

Conclusion: MS3 would all have their ass fed to them by a stock 17 year old 5.0 mustang with 275000kms on the motor.



Nope.

[?NR]

fireflea :lol

[1990TSI]

clearly you know nothing about preludes, they were discontinued in 01

don't know or don't care, either way they're junk.

they looked decent, but were too heavy and had as much torque as my lugnuts need.

[pandalove]

It ain't a Tight car if it ain't a Type -R

enough said
/thread

[ilvtofu]

^pretty much

[!SG]

you are over torquing ur lug nuts like a noob then. you should not be going over 100 ft lbs.

and you owned yourself there... how much does the prelude weigh?

here are some stats.

97-01 Honda Prelude 2970lbs. 200Hp / 2970lbs = power to weight ratio of 1HP / 14.85lbs

how much does the genesis coupe weigh?

Genesis Coupe 2.0T curb weight - 3294lbs 210Hp / 3294lbs = power to weight ratio of 1HP / 15.68lbs
Genesis Coupe 2.0T curb weight - 3294lbs 223Hp / 3294lbs = power to weight ratio of 1HP / 14.77lbs (premium gas)

thus the genesis coupe weighs more, and has to work harder to push more weight per horsepower it produces unless you are on premium gas, then u edge out the prelude... so as heavy as the prelude was, your car is still heavier. but the turbo makes up for that. the torque numbers are what make the difference.



don't know or don't care, either way they're junk.

they looked decent, but were too heavy and had as much torque as my lugnuts need.

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

you are over torquing ur lug nuts like a noob then. you should not be going over 100 ft lbs.

and you owned yourself there... how much does the prelude weigh?

here are some stats.

97-01 Honda Prelude 2970lbs. 200Hp / 2970lbs = power to weight ratio of 1HP / 14.85lbs

how much does the genesis coupe weigh?

Genesis Coupe 2.0T curb weight - 3294lbs 210Hp / 3294lbs = power to weight ratio of 1HP / 15.68lbs
Genesis Coupe 2.0T curb weight - 3294lbs 223Hp / 3294lbs = power to weight ratio of 1HP / 14.77lbs (premium gas)

thus the genesis coupe weighs more, and has to work harder to push more weight per horsepower it produces unless you are on premium gas, then u edge out the prelude... so as heavy as the prelude was, your car is still heavier. but the turbo makes up for that. the torque numbers are what make the difference.




holly shit, genesis weighs a shit load
no wonder the V6 aint that fast

[!SG]

the v6 genesis is only a bit heavier, but making 300hp, makes up for the weight.

its a good first attempt by hyundai that should make a lot of the other car manufactuers take a good long look at their own progression


and yes, i got all my info by just google searching.

[GordonTse]

Nope.

+1

[ilvtofu]

Nope.

+2?

lol definitely not a stock 5.0

3rd gen cobra just maybe...

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

It ain't a Tight car if it ain't a Type -R

enough said
/thread

werd :thumbsup:

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

hmm 266 pounds of torque for V6

233 for turbo version

[1990TSI]

I wonder what a stock prelude would put down on the dyno though...

http://www.grimmspeed.com/images/Genesis/dyno_baseline_vs_adjustment.jpg

This is stock, and stock with a free 5 minute wastgate adjustment.

186Whp 212Wtq

just saying if we're armchair racing, we should get wheel power numbers, not what a company says it probably puts out at the motor.

feel free to find a stock prelude dyno sheet, I'd do it, but it could be a conflict of interest. ( I did find one but it shows 135hp 120tq ;) )

[ilvtofu]

^It's gotta be better than that... are u sure u were looking at the last gen?
But Honda has become pretty infamous for not delivering in WHP,

Didn't the Genesis V6 put out more power than claimed at the crank?

[1990TSI]

It was a 1998 prelude that I found.
my dyno sheet there was a 2.0 on 87 octane
V6 didn't put out more than claimed, but the 2.0 was pretty close

[Kamui712]

^ I can't speak for all owners, but a few prelude owners (myself included) don't consider it a real sports car. It's more of a fun, daily driver that looks attractive and has good handling. The weight distribution is poor, yes it's fairly heavy, and not a lot of torque but for city driving who cares.

Not everyone will be attracted to the prelude, a certain population likes it. Just like a cooper or genesis, not everyone's going to like it.

This debate is almost as pointless as photographers arguing back and forth between Canon and Nikon, or cell phone people arguing between JDM phones, Nokia, and Blackberries.


It's called diversity.

[ilvtofu]

I think we can all agree preludes still look nice, it's not like canon/nikon because prelude isn't really in the same league of performance, whereas cameras would be DSLR vs DSLR of similar capabilities, because for cameras it's hard to argue with the numbers

[Kamui712]

lol you just had to 1 up me didn't u?

[!SG]

yeah but your friend also has a 02 honda prelude. very rare indeed. :)

the numbers you put up are for the 2.3L non vtec.

your arguement was based on what you observed and supported by facts that were drawn out in your head. i simply google searched to find the correct facts. and your right, whp is never told on the specs sheet.

no one is doubt the potential of the genesis coupe. especially the 2.0T, where hyundai smartened up and found a solid built engine already. now its just a matter of time for aftermarket companies to catch up to the level as they provide for every honda out there.

It was a 1998 prelude that I found.
my dyno sheet there was a 2.0 on 87 octane
V6 didn't put out more than claimed, but the 2.0 was pretty close

[!SG]

preludes were never popular in japan. for that price range, you have a hell lot more selection. if i was in japan, and had a budget aroudn the price of the prelude, i would get something else. id get an evo!

here in north america, no evo =( hence why the prelude was popular.

^ I can't speak for all owners, but a few prelude owners (myself included) don't consider it a real sports car. It's more of a fun, daily driver that looks attractive and has good handling. The weight distribution is poor, yes it's fairly heavy, and not a lot of torque but for city driving who cares.

Not everyone will be attracted to the prelude, a certain population likes it. Just like a cooper or genesis, not everyone's going to like it.

This debate is almost as pointless as photographers arguing back and forth between Canon and Nikon, or cell phone people arguing between JDM phones, Nokia, and Blackberries.


It's called diversity.

[falcon]

after competing at the Packwood National Tour autocross this last weekend and seeing S2K's pulling times as quick and faster than many of the 300whp+ modified and prepared class cars, my views on Honda's have drastically changed. Also, the car I co-drove... a 95 SM prepped CX w/ an ITR engine (that was slapped together over the last month) held it's own against a 440whp 240SX with racelogic.

[Eff-1]

Here's my take on S2000

1. Yes it's not a car for everyone. But you can say that about ANY car. BMW is not for everyone. GM is not for everyone. Yaris is not for everyone. Rolls Royce is not for everyone. It all depends on your priorities and your needs and wants.

2. When compared to all other sub $60,000 roadster/sports car, it is easily the most fun you can have.

3. I average 9L/100km. That's the best thing about Honda engines. You can keep to lower RPMs around the city and you get amazing fuel economy. And then you go find an open road, step on the gas pedal, and have fun screaming around. That's when fuel economy plummets, but who cares, you're having fun.

4. Is it worth $50k today? Nope. But it's nine years old and has been largely unchanged over that time. When it first came out, we all agreed it was worth $50k. And if Honda was to refresh it and release a new one, say AP3, nobody would cry foul over that price.

And that's all I have to say about that.

[Eclypz]

IMO, S2000 is definitely overpriced, but only in Canada.

Head south of the border and you'll find the 2009 S2000 has a MSRP of $35Kusd (~$40k cdn?) vs our Canadian model for MSRP $50.5K


and my contribution to the thread:
Honda has always been fuel economy before power. So if you're looking for raw power, or don't care about fuel economy, then look elsewhere.

[J-Chow]

well, you could always give the NSX a try :)
That's raw power at its best.

[lardo4life]

^oh shit that's awesome!!! my 300zx needs 89 :(

What? That's not right, even turbo Z31s use 87!

[GordonTse]

What? That's not right, even turbo Z31s use 87!

he probably thinks it's better for his 21yo car. ha:haha:

[PDKGD3]

he probably thinks it's better for his 21yo car. ha:haha:

My honda Fit takes 94 D:
Prepare for impact! *flame suit on*

[GordonTse]

My honda Fit takes 94 D:
Prepare for impact! *flame suit on*

cuz ur boosted. lol :thumbsup:

[PDKGD3]

cuz ur boosted. lol :thumbsup:

Good to know that people still pay attention to the details :haha:

[ilvtofu]

he probably thinks it's better for his 21yo car. ha:haha:

Definitely has stranger noise on 87 but power is the same

[1990TSI]

Definitely has stranger noise on 87 but power is the same

It's because you're 15

[twitchyzero]

OT, but can anyone comment on the long time reliability of Hondas made in NA?

Thought they opened in the late 90s..but some were opened in the mid 80's

I know they probably have the same QC has the ones from Japanese plants..but yeah?

as for last gen preludes..i used to think they look nice..but now they look too long and bulky when you compare them to 8th Gen Civic/RSX

[ajax]

now, would we still be having this discussion had honda made the engines mclaren had wanted for the f1?

[BoS_DC2]

It's because you're 15

lol