[68style]

I just saw a breaking story on CTV news saying that a plane crashed near Ikea in Richmond on #5 Road... no other details yet... crazy all the planes!!!

[Not really racist!]

wow, two quick threads.. shit gotta turn on the news

[68style]

I don't think their crews are on the scene yet... not even any media anywhere online either

[Jackwimmer]

hmm hope noone was hurt...

[Derek128]

WTF WTF WTF

[sexyaccord]

ikea must be having a sale

[lonelydriver]

fuck too bad they didn't crashed near my workplace on #6.

I hope the people on board are alright. They said the flames/wreakage is spread over 100m.

[ilvtofu]

oh shit, what kinda plane? I'd assume it'd be one of those piper's agaiin...
I wonder if it crashed right into ikea? and burnt down 50% of it hehe

[RTS]

big plane? small plane? details

[rslater]

Small plane.

[-EuroRSN-]

it was a small charter plane and no one died just watching the news now

[RTS]

whew. thought it may have been a passenger jet liner given the hour. thank God

[Tim Budong]

they are getting to the scene i think

[KingDeeCee]

Wow. So Ikea is selling planes now?

[Derek128]

Plane crash near Knight Street Bridge
Airport Authority confirms crash
News1130 Staff RICHMOND (NEWS1130) | Thursday, July 9th, 2009 10:25 pm
Bookmark

RICHMOND (NEWS1130) - A plane has crashed in what is believed to be an industrial area near the Knight Street Bridge. Alana Lawrence with Airport Authority says the plane is a Navajo, which is a small private aircraft. Unconfirmed reports suggest it went down around 10:15 p.m. near Bridgeport Road.

There's no word how many were on board, but Lawrence believes it was fully staffed and the Navajo can hold up to eight people. Stay with News1130 for more details.


http://news1130.com/more.jsp?content=20090710_012723_1400

[shenmecar]

wow that was recent then!

[Eff-1]

Apparently 2 people on board, both died.

[shenmecar]

Apparently 2 people on board, both died.

source?

[clowe]

Heard on 1130 radio that the plane was fully staffed. A caller said he saw ambulances leaving the scene without their emergency lights on.

[Eff-1]

source?

Global News at 11pm

[pandalove]

it crashed when i just drove past there

[smk]

friend uploaded a pic onto facebook, but really unclear..

http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs153.snc1/5690_1154900442181_1517801389_382293_8340728_n.jpg

[hypediss]

it crashed when i just drove past there

Was it when the lights suddenly went off?

I didnt hear the bang though I did see the streets lights going into knight street went off.

[Durrann1984]

yes channel 11 they say 2 ppl assume dead

[danned]

holy shit
richmond gonna be second 911?

[unit]

i just drove past there about 15 mins ago.
like 20 cop cars and a helicopter. kinda freaked me out for a sec cause this huge low flying plane flew pretty near the helicopter afterwards too. didnt see smoke or anything cops closed down the road from sweden all the way to 5 road.

[pandalove]

Was it when the lights suddenly went off?

I didnt hear the bang though I did see the streets lights going into knight street went off.

i actually didn't see any light i jus heard a plane flew by
i was heading on to knight bridge already north bound

[Derek128]

I hope its not cost by someone70+ years old AGAIN

[pandalove]

its probably some redneck that hates chinese ppl .. and thot the nightmarket opens tonight

[koukimonst3r]

I was just there.

[Derek128]

its probably some redneck that hates chinese ppl .. and thot the nightmarket opens tonight

should I LOL? :rolleyes:

[Rich Sandor]

witness said it went nose first into the ground, 100 foot+ high tower of smoke and fire.

RIP to the pilot and copilot.

[pandalove]

JASON SPEAKING ON CHANNEL 9

FROM REVSCENE?? HE CLAIMS HE IS WITNESS AND WORKING ON HIS CAR

[Cereal Killer]

Good thing this happened now instead of during the day when that area would've been packed.

[Eff-1]

JASON SPEAKING ON CHANNEL 9

FROM REVSCENE?? HE CLAIMS HE IS WITNESS AND WORKING ON HIS CAR

Yes it's Jason from RS, busy installing a fart can on a 92 Civic

[Rich Sandor]

FYI guys this is a small cargo/commuter plane on a night flight, usually crewed by low-time commericial pilots and usually the planes are really old, and if they are not maintained properly, could be dangerous. This is not a 9/11 type situation. Either the pilot fucked up or the maintenance fucked up. Once again, RIP.

[JBAUTISTA]

OMG! i missed it. hah me and freind was heading down to espot when we saw 2 cop cars turn around zooomingg past us guessing they where heading to that spot! weird.

[CivicTypeRice]

Just saw on the news that the plane hit a charter bus which went up in flames aswell.

[pandalove]

did that guy on channel M just say he witness the plane crash while he was eating lunch in his car?

[!Aznboi128]

it was a small plane 2 people on board and both are assumed dead at this point

[DanHibiki]

Anyone here that witness on the phone on global news? Every question they asked him he just replied with "Ya I aw Big boom big blast!"

[Roach]

Yes, some people work night shifts.

Kev

[Roach]

Anyone here that witness on the phone on global news? Every question they asked him he just replied with "Ya I aw Big boom big blast!"

That guy made my head hurt.

Boom boom bang.

I thought it was the new black eyed peas song.

Kev

[Not really racist!]

Shit.. apparently the plane was goin straight down and flames bursted up 100 feet with secondary explosions

[Eff-1]

lol at all the riff raff calling in claiming to be witnesses...

John on CTV says "I saw the plane go boooooooooooom"

lol

[Roach]

"John Dick"

Kev

[DanHibiki]

Idiot callers.


Man we're lucky this didn't hit a populated area or anything.

[chromechevy]

welcome to richmond where car or airplane drivers cant drive.:)

[Rich Sandor]

Here is an mp3 from vancouver tower right after the crash. Apex 511 is the Navajoe that crashed, it was a few miles behind an Airbus also inbound for landing at YVR.

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/cyvr/CYVR-Jul-10-2009-0500Z.mp3

[?NR]

i was driving on Knight St going onto Alderbridge, then the lights went out around that time.
Now I understand why..

sigh.

[Roach]

Here is an mp3 from vancouver tower right after the crash. Apex 511 is the Navajoe that crashed, it was a few miles behind an Airbus also inbound for landing at YVR.

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/cyvr/CYVR-Jul-10-2009-0500Z.mp3

Wow. When the Air Canada pilot mentions the explosion and fire... chilling.

Kev

[CivicTypeRice]

i was driving on Knight St going onto Alderbridge, then the lights went out around that time.
Now I understand why..

sigh.

I was at the gym @ around 10:30 and the lights went out for like 2 seconds. Related to the crash maybe?

[figure.09]

did that guy on channel M just say he witness the plane crash while he was eating lunch in his car?

LOLOL lunch 1015pm :haha::haha::haha:

[Domani]

eating lunch at 10pm, it's his second meal of the day during his night shift.

[asian_speedster]

Here is an mp3 from vancouver tower right after the crash. Apex 511 is the Navajoe that crashed, it was a few miles behind an Airbus also inbound for landing at YVR.

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/cyvr/CYVR-Jul-10-2009-0500Z.mp3

cool how they got that posted so fast, I didnt even know that you could listen in on the air traffic controllers.

[Rich Sandor]

looks like this is the airplane that went down:

http://www.airlinefan.com/airline-photos/1406500/Integra-Ops/Piper/PA-31-350-Navajo-Chieftan/C-GNAF/

[Rich Sandor]

cool how they got that posted so fast, I didnt even know that you could listen in on the air traffic controllers.

Uhh yeah, all you need is a radio tuned to tower freq... :)

[k20a]

rip

[Boostslut]

RIP thats sad.

[Navlys]

Blame the green laser pointers that these kids are running around with at the night market.
I always said that Richmond would either sink, or have a plane drop on it.
Wonder if it was pilot error or mechanical.
RIP to the fly boys.

[!Tigger]

RIP

[mmmk]

does anyone know the cause of the accident?

[AVS_Racing]

RIP i wonder what caused the accident

[metal]

Too early to know.

And yeah, you can listen to YVR and a lot of other airports on www.liveatc.net

[yoursyumiko]

Blame the green laser pointers that these kids are running around with at the night market.
I always said that Richmond would either sink, or have a plane drop on it.
Wonder if it was pilot error or mechanical.
RIP to the fly boys.

night market on thursday?

[The_AK]

Did you're guys lights flicker at around 10:15? My friend told me his did, mine did as well, anyone else in Richmond?

Anyways, after that my friend and I decided to go investigate for ourselves. This involved getting as close as possible. Unfortunately, the police set up a complete perimeter around the complete site. But I was able to get some pictures of the surrounding police.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/The_AK/IMG_2254.jpg
this guy in his 240sx tried to turn onto bridgeport (this is the intersection at 5 and bridgeport)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/The_AK/IMG_2272.jpg
we were walking down bridgeport and saw 2 cars with "Canada" written on the side of them approaching the roadblock near mcdonalds and ikea, we decided to go across between some buildings came across another road block

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/The_AK/IMG_2279.jpg
no pictures of faces

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/The_AK/IMG_2284.jpg
So they had a complete roadblock around Ikea (near Mobler and J's Racing building) and set up an additional roadblock at Garage Sale Inc. So... a roadblock within a roadblock
Some pictures of their barricades, lol

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/The_AK/IMG_2283.jpg
also, random picture of articulated bus in ikea parking lot... i'm not sure if they park them there regularily or not...

In the end, entertaining night playing private investigator, RIP to those who died in the accident :(

[124Y]

Wow...so this is where those cops are headed... I heard a lot of siren around that time; now i know why...

[Harvey Specter]

RIP, lucky no one on the ground got hurt and didn't crash into a gas station.

[Fafine]

i was playing ball at douglas and i saw a brightasss flash towards the richmond directions. at first i thought it was lightning but then it was the plane crash

[In_MODeration]

I was at the gym @ around 10:30 and the lights went out for like 2 seconds. Related to the crash maybe?

steve nash? i was working out at about the same time and the lights went out. they had it back up in 10 minutes though

[kumbo1]

My cable went out around that time and I heard a boom....

[azzurro32]

poor assembly job from ikea

[thumper]

news this morning said it was a regular chartered medical flight used for transporting blood (plasma?).

cops had to ram through a locked chain link fence/gate to get to the crash scene...

[thumper]

http://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2/20090710/450_mynews_crash2_090710.jpghttp://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2/20090710/450_bc_plane_090710.jpg

video footage: http://mynews.ctv.ca/mediadetails/1318750?collection=742&offset=0&siteT=

[reds]

RIP.

[Topgrinder]

that is nuts,, i was at a bbq in south van and then boom i seen a huge flash and then big thick smoke after. Woah crazy. Didnt know it was a plane!!

[Adsdeman]

I don't think their crews are on the scene yet... not even any media anywhere online either

Wow does this mean Revscene is quicker to gather info than the emergancy respose and the press there is money to be made here lol

[no_mercy]

there's a possibility that the Navajo might've came into the approach a little to close to the A320 up ahead and got caught in the wake turbulence and spiraled it straight down into the ground.

wake turbulence from transport jet is extremely powerful to say the least. i would never want to get caught in one of those if i was in a general aviation aircraft or light/medium sized...


RIP

[shenmecar]

So where exactly did the plane crash?

[pandalove]

Ikea... like near where aj racing used to be

[shenmecar]

apparently the plane was carrying blood!

http://www.vancouversun.com/entertainment/after+plane+carrying+blood+Vancouver+crashes+Richm ond/1776106/story.html

[GomGom]

Lucky AJR has moved to a new place. Otherwise....

[pandalove]

Lucky AJR has moved to a new place. Otherwise....

more S2ks in flames?

[moomooCow]

more S2ks in flames?

^ LoL ;)

[124Y]

^^ New addition at AJR: Real AIRPLANE wings!

[gnat.]

^^^ LOL!
wow another plane crash. sucks.
but yeah i was down at bridgeport last night too! (by oak bridge)
lights flickered....and then all of a sudden it was a blackout. apparently river rock was like that too.

RIP!

[asahai69]

^ umm. i live on bridgeport and my lights didnt flicker or even go out.

[thumper]

^ umm. i live on bridgeport and my lights didnt flicker or even go out.


different grid.

[slammer111]

I'd be willing to bet it was the wake turbulence. Very few other factors other than major mechanical failure (like a wing breaking off) will cause a plane to nosedive into the ground during the landing sequence.

During flight school, one of our instructors told us he was once caught in one behind a jetliner. He had to use full stick deflection just to stay level and almost crapped his pants.

[Selanne_200]

^That is most likley the cause of the crash. The initial reports and eyewitness reports both include something about the navajo following closey to a turbojet. Anytime you have a small prop plane flying following the path of a big turbojet isn't a good thing. I was told stories of such by my instructor both the planes during takeoff and landings. That being said, shouldn't the ATC be responsible for spacing out the aircrafts during landing sequence and I would also assume the piper was flying VFR and with the visibility we had, he should've been able to spot the plane that's in front of them tho.

[In_MODeration]

Wait so maybe it was explained already in this thread not sure but how did the plane crash connect to the 1-2 minute blackouts?

[Gumby]

For you pilots, are runways one way only? Common sense would say yes, but I swear, I saw a plane take off towards the east from the southern runway. I always thought planes landed on that runway heading west?

[pandalove]

Wait so maybe it was explained already in this thread not sure but how did the plane crash connect to the 1-2 minute blackouts?

when the plane crash landed it took out some power lines too

[hk20000]

For you pilots, are runways one way only? Common sense would say yes, but I swear, I saw a plane take off towards the east from the southern runway. I always thought planes landed on that runway heading west?

no common sense says the plane lands facing the wind as much as possible for maximum low speed lift.

So a run way is land-able in both directions. The decision is on the wind direction and control tower instructions.

[Harvey Specter]

For you pilots, are runways one way only? Common sense would say yes, but I swear, I saw a plane take off towards the east from the southern runway. I always thought planes landed on that runway heading west?

Nope, alternate landings/takeoffs.

[Gumby]

no common sense says the plane lands facing the wind as much as possible for maximum low speed lift.

So a run way is land-able in both directions. The decision is on the wind direction and control tower instructions.
Oops, forgot about other factors such as wind direction...

And I just saw on google maps that the YVR runways have tire markings on both ends of the runway... :)

[twitchyzero]

i live in east van and lights flickered around 10pm last night..related?

[Harvey Specter]

Wow, so sad.

http://a123.g.akamai.net/f/123/12465/1d/www.vancouversun.com/pilots+killed+thursday+night+year+from+tsawwassen/1780000/1780002.bin?size=620x400

RICHMOND - His friends and family had planned to honour Jeremy Sunderland tonight with a 28th birthday party, but instead they will gather to remember his life.

The charismatic Sunderland — a member of Tsawwassen’s long-time and well-respected Mills family — was one of two co-pilots who died Thursday night in a fiery plane crash in the parking lot of a Richmond transmission shop.

The news sent shockwaves through Sunderland’s many friends and family, including Andrew Davidson, who said his friend was “a genuine straight shooter that will truly be missed.”

“It’s hit us like a ton of bricks,” said Davidson, who grew up in a house on Tsawwassen Beach Avenue near Sunderland’s grandfather and step-father. “He was just a guy you’d see as you walked into a room and you knew you’d be in for a good conversation. He had a view on everything.”

Sunderland, who went to high school as Jeremy Mills but later changed his name to Sunderland after he graduated, is a member of the large and respected Mills family, founders of the Mills Paint chain.

An avid boater, he grew up spending his summers on the water and dreamt of becoming a pilot. His dreams were realized after he attended flight school in Victoria and got a job with Canadian Air Services.

He has been flying seriously for about six years and was often on the same route. His friends described Sunderland as a responsible, serious, hard-working and driven man, who had an entrepreneurial bent, painting houses on the side when he wasn’t working as a pilot.

By the time he was 15, Sunderland had raised $1,600 to buy a blue Nissan sports car. The car sat in his driveway for two months until he got his licence.

And when the Canadian dollar was higher, he bought a Porsche in California and brought it back to B.C. for resale. While he waited for the market to improve, he often drove it, Davidson said.

“He’d show up for a paint job in a Porsche,” he said. “He was a little entrepreneur, he always wanted to make money.”

Sunderland’s death came just two days after he turned 28 on Tuesday. His friends and family sent him messages wishing him a happy birthday, but he was planning to celebrate tonight in a joint party with a cousin.

Davidson said Sunderland loved to relax on his grandfather’s boat and was always in a good mood. “We’ve known the family for ages,” said Andrew’s father Ron Davidson. “He was a really nice kid. If he saw you, he’d come over and say hello and get the conversation going. He was personable, friendly, a good human being.”

The Davidsons said Sunderland didn't talk a lot about being a pilot or brag about it, although he wore a trademark bomber-style black leather jacket.

“He always had a leather coat on. He always looked good,” Andrew Davidson said. “He was beyond fun. Whenever you saw him it was smiles all around. He could always turn any situation into a fun situation. He was a character.”

His former high school teacher Stephen Fera was stunned to hear about the death of Sunderland, whom he described as a “very intelligent, good-looking young man with a bright future.”

“I’m just so upset,” he said. “I can’t believe it.”

As a student, Fera said Sunderland was attentive in class and highly liked and respected by his classmates and teachers.

“He was going places,” Fera said. “Maybe he had a sparkle in the eye or a mischievous glint in his eye but he never did anything bad. He had a lot of spunk.

“He’ll be sorely missed by the community. He was never down, he was always up.” ksinoski@vancouversun.com

lpynn@vancouversun.com

[JulyZerg]

Sad :( RIP!

[slammer111]

^That is most likley the cause of the crash. The initial reports and eyewitness reports both include something about the navajo following closey to a turbojet. Anytime you have a small prop plane flying following the path of a big turbojet isn't a good thing. I was told stories of such by my instructor both the planes during takeoff and landings. That being said, shouldn't the ATC be responsible for spacing out the aircrafts during landing sequence and I would also assume the piper was flying VFR and with the visibility we had, he should've been able to spot the plane that's in front of them tho.I'm guessing you're also a pilot? :)

It's hard to judge distance in the air as there is such a difference between wingspans. It's not like cars where every vehicle is pretty much the same width, and everyone knows how many motorcycles get run over because some driver misjudged distance. :rolleyes:

If it was indeed the wake turbulence that did the plane in, you're right, the controller would be at fault. It's probably just an honest accident though. You're looking at 3 runways, landing hundreds of problems a day. I'm sure controllers make mistakes all the time, as we're all only human. Unfortunately, this one resulted in 2 deaths.

I feel bad for the controller on duty. Not only does he/she now have to live with this forever, but his/her future career as an ATC could be completely hooped at this point.

[ilvtofu]

apparently the plane was carrying blood!

http://www.vancouversun.com/entertainment/after+plane+carrying+blood+Vancouver+crashes+Richm ond/1776106/story.html

Is it just me or is that article under entertainment? who is vancouver sun's new target audience? emo kids?

Sad to hear the guy was such a great person :(

[Rich Sandor]

I'm guessing you're also a pilot? :)

It's hard to judge distance in the air as there is such a difference between wingspans. It's not like cars where every vehicle is pretty much the same width, and everyone knows how many motorcycles get run over because some driver misjudged distance. :rolleyes:

If it was indeed the wake turbulence that did the plane in, you're right, the controller would be at fault. It's probably just an honest accident though. You're looking at 3 runways, landing hundreds of problems a day. I'm sure controllers make mistakes all the time, as we're all only human. Unfortunately, this one resulted in 2 deaths.

I feel bad for the controller on duty. Not only does he/she now have to live with this forever, but his/her future career as an ATC could be completely hooped at this point.


I'm also a pilot (commerical, multi, ifr, float, etc)

I think it's premature to lay ANY blame on the controller at this point.

Go look up the regs for spacing between VFR or IFR aircraft and whose responsibility each case is.

[MDMA]

i was leaving the gym and i saw this plane in the air, it looked like it was doing tricks at first went down then back up, then it went down and kept goin and i was like OH FUCK then i heard the boom! ther was a huge white flash and all of a sudden fire and smoke everywhere and all the lights went out around teh site, fuckin scary, the only thing runnin thru my head while the plane was going down was those guys know theyr fuckin dead, i called the cops and the line was jammed, one of the most fuckt up things i ever seen it was like 200 yards away from me

[chouchou]

wow.. intense. rip to those who passed :(

[no_mercy]

I'm also a pilot (commerical, multi, ifr, float, etc)

I think it's premature to lay ANY blame on the controller at this point.

Go look up the regs for spacing between VFR or IFR aircraft and whose responsibility each case is.

I agree with Rich here. It is reckless to accuse anyone. The pilots in the Navajo should've been fully aware that they were behind an A320 when being sequenced.


And regarding about runway directions, it's dictated by wind direction. Aircraft always want to fly into the wind to maximize airspeed (the speed of wind over the wing) and minimize ground speed (the speed relative to ground). That way the aircraft could take off in a shorter amount of distance.
This holds true for aircraft landing too.

In Vancouver Airport, 26L/08R (southern runway) is usually used for take-offs and 26R/08L (northern runway) is usually used for landings. But I have seen smaller aircrafts land on the southern runway and I think it's usually due to being closer to the parking gate I think.

[metal]

^Yeah, closer to the south terminals

[jimzilla]

The thing i dont understand is why didnt they take the other parallel at YVR if they knew they were following a heavy.

RIP Matt, its been a blast knowing you
Blue skies buddy.

[slammer111]

There are a couple of factors here. Mind you, this is all speculation.

Because of noise complaints, last time I checked they use ONLY the southern runway after a certain time. This is likely the case as the crash happened after dark.

Even if the alternate runway is used, depending on wind conditions, the vortices from the airbus can drift northward or southward. This is a common phenomenon. Even without any wind, 1 vortex will move in each direction perpendicular to a plane's direction of travel. So there could've been a huge vortex sitting directly over the landing path for the parallel runway that nobody knew about.

I'm not familiar with IFR rules. Can someone check their AIP or CARs and see who is responsible for separation, the pilot or the ATC?

[DC5-S]

that matt guy went to the same skool as me.. he wasnt in my grade tho i think.. anyways rip

[hal0g0dv2]

i was leaving the gym and i saw this plane in the air, it looked like it was doing tricks at first went down then back up, then it went down and kept goin and i was like OH FUCK then i heard the boom! ther was a huge white flash and all of a sudden fire and smoke everywhere and all the lights went out around teh site, fuckin scary, the only thing runnin thru my head while the plane was going down was those guys know theyr fuckin dead, i called the cops and the line was jammed, one of the most fuckt up things i ever seen it was like 200 yards away from me

that is scary shit

[sunny_31]

Summer Runway Operations at YVR
[Last updated on 6/19/2009 at 2:38:47 PM]



Starting July 5, 2009, Vancouver Airport Authority will undertake a three-year project to upgrade the south airfield lighting systems to meet Transport Canada standards.



This upgrade project will result in the south runway being closed from 9 p.m. to 7 a.m. for 9 weeks, from July 5 through to September 5. The north runway will therefore remain open 24hrs during this period for aircraft arrivals and departures as required. Similar closures will be required in 2010 and 2011.

[thumper]

i was leaving the gym and i saw this plane in the air, it looked like it was doing tricks at first went down then back up, then it went down and kept goin and i was like OH FUCK then i heard the boom! ther was a huge white flash and all of a sudden fire and smoke everywhere and all the lights went out around teh site, fuckin scary, the only thing runnin thru my head while the plane was going down was those guys know theyr fuckin dead, i called the cops and the line was jammed, one of the most fuckt up things i ever seen it was like 200 yards away from me

i think the transportation safety board would like to hear from you...

[jimzilla]

There are a couple of factors here. Mind you, this is all speculation.

Because of noise complaints, last time I checked they use ONLY the southern runway after a certain time. This is likely the case as the crash happened after dark.

Even if the alternate runway is used, depending on wind conditions, the vortices from the airbus can drift northward or southward. This is a common phenomenon. Even without any wind, 1 vortex will move in each direction perpendicular to a plane's direction of travel. So there could've been a huge vortex sitting directly over the landing path for the parallel runway that nobody knew about.

I'm not familiar with IFR rules. Can someone check their AIP or CARs and see who is responsible for separation, the pilot or the ATC?


I don't have my AIM/AIP handy, but all i can remember back when i did all the training is ULTIMATELY it is the PILOT's responsiblility to ensure safe operation of an aircraft.

An ATC controller is used to assist the PILOT to fly the aircraft safely, by providing separation distances and stuff.

At the end of the day, its the pilots life on the line and the ATC person goes home