[Evolutionian]

So i have a Mazda3, second one so far, went from 2.0L 4sp Auto to 2.3L 5sp Manual, done some bolt ons to it, mostly exterior and suspension, cant say its quick or anything, but it sure drives nice, being a FWD it still doesnt feel bad..

i know you guys think FWD = fail

but lets get over that.

Today i was talking to a friend of mine, and he basically said FWD = performance only happen on Honda cars (integra, Civics was his example)

my question is..

What makes Honda FWDs better than other FWDs?
What makes them better than some other FWDs in the market?

cars in question are for example:

Mazda3s, Lancers, Eclipses, Sentras, GTIs, etc..

talking about power/weight ratio.. hp/torque ratio.. etc..

[ToyotaPowah]

Your friend is a noob. While Honda does have several examples of fine FWD engineering, a lot of other manufacturers do as well. Take for example, the Mazdaspeed 3. Powerful, handles great, practical and..... driven by the front wheels. GTI is another good one.

[ChinesePetro]

your friend must be an ignorant honda fanboi

[!Yaminashi]

Your friend gets assfucked by his vtec engine, thats why he said it

[Evolutionian]

lol see? i dont agree with him, as i drive a mazda3, spend quite some money on it, and i have to listen to him blah blah all day about how Hondas are the only FWD cars that should be done up, love the speed3.. but wish sedan version was availiable..

also i realize hondas arent that good on the hp/torque ratio.. does that mean they are slower accelerating from a dead stop?

cause i seem to recall my other friends talking about how one of them's CSX type S couldnt get in front of the other guy's Mazda3 off the line..

[Supafly]

lol

also i realize hondas arent that good on the hp/torque ratio.. does that mean they are slower accelerating from a dead stop?

..


no, just means that it takes that much more money to make it go faster...lol

[!Yaminashi]

lol see? i dont agree with him, as i drive a mazda3, spend quite some money on it, and i have to listen to him blah blah all day about how Hondas are the only FWD cars that should be done up, love the speed3.. but wish sedan version was availiable..

also i realize hondas arent that good on the hp/torque ratio.. does that mean they are slower accelerating from a dead stop?

cause i seem to recall my other friends talking about how one of them's CSX type S couldnt get in front of the other guy's Mazda3 off the line..

If my memory serves me right the speed3 has 4 doors?
But yeah hondas lack torque for sure.

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

Your friend is a noob. While Honda does have several examples of fine FWD engineering, a lot of other manufacturers do as well. Take for example, the Mazdaspeed 3. Powerful, handles great, practical and..... driven by the front wheels. GTI is another good one.

werd


i thought Mazda 3 handles the best in it class

the suspensoin is pretty firm yet the ride isnt harsh at all


by the way, all 4 banger lacks of torque.

U dont hear ppl bitching holly fuck my V6/V8/V12 has no torque god damn!

[bcrdukes]

FWD (for all intensive purposes) for the mass consumer market has changed significantly over the past decade, it puts RWD to shame. There are many more FWD cars out there that can give Hondas a run for their money.

I know I'm comparing apples to oranges but why pay $40K for a 15 year old MKIV Supra that's falling apart and leaking oil like no tomorrow, when you can pay $30,000'ish for a 3 year old Acura TL Type-S which has 200+ HP, is newer, much more comfortable and still covered under warranty?

Most people don't even drive their cars anywhere beyond 10% of its potential anyway.

[!Yaminashi]

by the way, all 4 bangers lack of torque.



False. Clearly you've never driven a mazdaspeed3;)

[ChinesePetro]

back then honda had full f&r double wishbone suspension + light solid unibody chassis
not as much competition from other car manufacturers
then honda cheaped out

[ChinesePetro]

by the way, all 4 bangers lack of torque.


:rolleyes:

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

:rolleyes:

what?

which 4 banger doesnt lack torque


:rolleyes: the fuck

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

False. Clearly you've never driven a mazdaspeed3;)

yes yes i know, i love mazdaspeed 3 dont get me wrong, its one of my top 3 favorite car around that price tag



anything with turbo/SC will get hp/torque

thats a no brainer

[yvrnycracer]

what?

which 4 banger doesnt lack torque


:rolleyes: the fuck

4 banger lacks torque...

Thats funny... :haha:

[shenmecar]

False. Clearly you've never driven a mazdaspeed3;)

Well, I bet his argument would be that the Speed3 is turbocharged, but I know one engine that would shut him up.

the 3L Straight-4 in a 944 =D

Anyways OP: Your friend is just biased as fuck. Forget him.

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

what u wonna tell me 4 bangers make huge amount of torque?


seriously, dont give me the turbo, supercharge, nitrous bullshit. Any car with turbo, SC, nitrous can make power. A civic can make 500whp with turbo, so can EVo, STi. Supra can make 1000whp with turbo. Any car can make xxx amout of hp and torque when going FI


in general 4 cylinder cannot make torque because its smaller displacement

[shenmecar]

what u wonna tell me 4 bangers make huge amount of torque?


seriously, dont give me the turbo, supercharge, nitrous bullshit. Any car with turbo, SC, nitrous can make power. A civic can make 500whp with turbo, so can EVo, STi. Supra can make 1000whp with turbo. Any car can make xxx amout of hp and torque when going FI


in general 4 cylinder cannot make torque because its smaller displacement

Nobody said a 4-cylinder had to be small. You're saying N/A 4-cylinders lack torque. That is not true.

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

IN GENERAL!!!!!!!


:cry:

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

IN GENERAL

most 4 cylinder range from 1.6L to 2.5L their torque and hp number is around 110hp/110 torque to 160hp/160 torque which is fine


V6 3.0-3.5L

ranges 250hp-330hp torque number is around 260 pounds of torque


V8 torqu number is around 300 + , HP wise around 300hp to 400hp

so what im saying is because its a smaller engine , in GENERAL it is very hard or near impossible to get them to make more hp/torque without going boost. BUt as i mentioned, anything boost can go fast, that we can agree on right?

[shenmecar]

IN GENERAL

most 4 cylinder range from 1.6L to 2.5L their torque and hp number is around 110hp/110 torque to 160hp/160 torque which is fine


V6 3.0-3.5L

ranges 250hp-330hp torque number is around 260 pounds of torque


V8 torqu number is around 300 + , HP wise around 300hp to 400hp

so what im saying is because its a smaller engine , in GENERAL it is very hard or near impossible to get them to make more hp/torque without going boost. BUt as i mentioned, anything boost can go fast, that we can agree on right?

Now you're just trying to correct yourself. But you lost already.

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

ok watever u say

[Evolutionian]

^^^ LOL

well.. i dont have a speed.. i have a regular NA Mazda3 Sedan version not the "hatchback" version.. and i dont really like the look of the 5D.. but yes.. i do feel that the suspension are firm.. with the coilover its stiff as hell :D

as for my biased assfucked by vtec friend.. not so much friend but friend.. lol
he drives a base model lancer.. with intake in it.. and constanly guns it.. i dont bother with him but he always wants to race me :(

[d1]

Honda's just have so much more aftermarket support. Even the cheapest car in their lineup, the Fit, has a ton of parts available.

[Blinky]

FWD (for all intensive purposes) for the mass consumer market has changed significantly over the past decade, it puts RWD to shame. There are many more FWD cars out there that can give Hondas a run for their money.

This.

Older honduhs were decent FWD platforms because they were light and had good front suspension.

Most people don't even drive their cars anywhere beyond 10% of its potential anyway.

Aaaaannnd this. Most people would never really understand why RWD is superior for "fun" driving.

[Volvo-brickster]

werd


i thought Mazda 3 handles the best in it class

the suspensoin is pretty firm yet the ride isnt harsh at all


by the way, all 4 banger lacks of torque.

U dont hear ppl bitching holly fuck my V6/V8/V12 has no torque god damn!

it should be all N/A 4 bangers lack torque

and my 3.0L v6 is gutless with no horsepower or torque

:haha::D

[shenmecar]

Most people would never really understand why RWD is superior for "fun" driving.

Thats true. Most people who buys Merc and BMWs are old men who likes the title of "owning a european car". They are not going to go 0-60 as fast as possible in their M5 because they have kids.

[Spectre_Cdn]

Thats true. Most people who buys Merc and BMWs are old men who likes the title of "owning a european car". They are not going to go 0-60 as fast as possible in their M5 because they have kids.

Don't forget the parent-powered honger/mainland boys and girls that cruise around No. 3 Rd...

[ilvtofu]

LOL why are we even disputing it? larger displacement = more potential to yield power,

But anyways, I believe an FWD performance car is very valid, won't be a lemans track car but for a daily driver with a good amount of performance FWD isn't impossible

[shenmecar]

Don't forget the parent-powered honger/mainland boys and girls that cruise around No. 3 Rd...

em too.

[bcrdukes]

This.

Older honduhs were decent FWD platforms because they were light and had good front suspension.

Old Honda's were awesome. Double-wishbone suspension, light chassis, and a reliable 4-cylinder gas miser with so much potential, how can you lose? Sure, they may be a SOHC 1.6L 4-cylinder motor pushing 110hp, but who the hell cares when you're saving all that money from the get go? I'm sure there are people out there who rake in a 6-digit salary and are laughing all the way to the bank!


Aaaaannnd this. Most people would never really understand why RWD is superior for "fun" driving.

We can thank Initial-D. :D

[LiquidTurbo]

Here in my opinion are some good FWD (quick, nippy, or fun to drive)

Honda Civic SI
Acura RSX Type-S
Mazdaspeed 3
Acura TL Type-S (latest gen and previous gen)
Cobalt SS

As for your question as to what supposedly makes a Honda FWD "better". If you're talking about cars like the FD2, I think Honda's suspension and chassis design works well as a FWD platform.

Go drive a Civic SI, or a RSX Type-S, they're really neutral, no torque steer.

I can't speak for other FWD cars, but as far as I know, the FD2 is the fastest track stock FWD you can buy? Or perhaps the Mugen RR.?

[Rikaro]

^
he pretty much said it. Light chassis and double wishbone suspension. Some swaps are pretty much bolt on and yet you get good gas mileage out of it.

But being a Honda owner I feel ashamed of what your friend has said.

[godwin]

In General:

Most FWD fundamentally are limited due to the weight and layout of the engine.. There are several tricks like Ford's Revo Knuckle that partially solve the problems eg torque steer. not to mention Honda's SH differential. However it adds to R&D and manufacturing cost.. since FWD is relegated to economy cars.. it is just not worth it.

The bottom line is it is harder to have a good handling FWD.. it is even harder to modify / add power to a stock FWD car without causing a lot of other problems.

In the end RWD is easier, hence require less investment etc.

I would say Revo Knucle is probably the best FWD setup right now (for high HP ~300HP and general driving). and guess what? Ford licenses it from ZF.

[godwin]

Actually it is the suspension geometry that affects the handling more.. double wishbone or not is more of a packaging issue.

And yes the suspension geometry is also limited by the packaging of the engine and the drivetrain.

Fundamentally FWD is designed for manufacturing efficiency and low cost.. much like CVT. If you want real good performance that is on par with RWD, in the end you have to spend more to get the same results.

^
he pretty much said it. Light chassis and double wishbone suspension. Some swaps are pretty much bolt on and yet you get good gas mileage out of it.

But being a Honda owner I feel ashamed of what your friend has said.

[LiquidTurbo]

^

Yup. For example. the RSX uses front McPhersons.

[insomniacRA]

What makes Honda FWDs better than other FWDs?
What makes them better than some other FWDs in the market?
.

VTEC! :thumbsup:

[Blinky]

You can do decent things with McHappy struts, but if one is designing a performance car from the ground up, one generally wouldn't start with a strut setup.

FWD is never going to be able to put down power like RWD or have the handling balance quite like RWD either.

[impactX]

How do you feel having 2 back wheels doing nothing at all other than rolling?

[kumbo1]

werd


i thought Mazda 3 handles the best in it class

the suspensoin is pretty firm yet the ride isnt harsh at all


by the way, all 4 banger lacks of torque.

U dont hear ppl bitching holly fuck my V6/V8/V12 has no torque god damn!

LOL
4 bangers lack torque? My 2.5 sentra puts about 180 torque at around 2500 rpm...The SRT-4 Caliber pushes around 285....

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

^


2500rpm?
try again

With these modifications, the power achieved is 200 horsepower at 6,600 rpm and 180 lb-ft of torque at 5,200 rpm (when using premium unleaded fuel). Helping to put all this power to the ground is an optional Helical Limited-Slip Differential (available with Spec V only). The Spec V model is available only with a close-ratio 6-speed manual transmission. It also has unique suspension, brakes, tires and body structure changes (versus the base SE-R).

[ChinesePetro]

^


2500rpm?
try again

With these modifications, the power achieved is 200 horsepower at 6,600 rpm and 180 lb-ft of torque at 5,200 rpm (when using premium unleaded fuel). Helping to put all this power to the ground is an optional Helical Limited-Slip Differential (available with Spec V only). The Spec V model is available only with a close-ratio 6-speed manual transmission. It also has unique suspension, brakes, tires and body structure changes (versus the base SE-R).

Most people would rather get the 180lb-ft@5,200rpm than the 139lb-ft@6100rpm, unless he/she is a honda fanboi.

not to say, the spec V is 6 grands cheaper than the Civic. :eek:

[Great68]

Unless you are tracking your car, or breaking road laws on a regular basis, RWD is a novelty.

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

Most people would rather get the 180lb-ft@5,200rpm than the 139lb-ft@6100rpm, unless he/she is a honda fanboi.

not to say, the spec V is 6 grands cheaper than the Civic. :eek:

:rolleyes::rolleyes: and u are comparing with Si because?

did i say SER is a bad car? no i love it, its affordable yet its a huge improvement over the last gen. And i mean HUGE!


why not compare apple to apple, u are comparing a 2.5L to a 2.0L in terms of torque because?

TSX K24
4-cyl 172 @ 4300rpm torque
201@7100rpm hp

are you gonna apply that faggot logic of urs?

most people would prefer the 172@4300rpm torque over the 180@ 5200rpm logic again? oh wait, this time honda is being placed in the first place so i know u will apply someting else

[ilvtofu]

Unless you are tracking your car, or breaking road laws on a regular basis, RWD is a novelty.

+1

[ShaughnessyREN]

a stock civic SI will stomp your stock Mazda 3 anytime

to op: watch for r18 civics
cuz
si is outta ur league

[ilvtofu]

a stock civic SI will stomp your stock Mazda 3 anytime

to op: watch for r18 civics
cuz
si is outta ur league

LOL guess who's back! :eek:

the 148hp mazda 3 is slower than an si? :Orly:

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

a stock civic SI will stomp your stock Mazda 3 anytime

to op: watch for r18 civics
cuz
si is outta ur league

lol u are alive again

[BEEB]

Mazda 3 is a fine automobile. But a modified Honda is a bit more superior. I believe your friend was talking about Type R, SIR, B16 swapped Civic Hatch or even a H22 Prelude. I've driven the Mazda 3 and owned a Protege5. I have to agree that the Mazda 3 have a nice firm suspension and handles really well when breaking the municipal law. But I've to agree that Honda does built a better car in terms of FWD performance. I've also owned a H22 Prelude which is a very fun car to drive which i would rate it higher than a Mazda 3 or Protege 5. Let alone the Type R and B16 swapped Civics, these Honda have way more fun than a slightly suspension tuned Mazda 3. If you wanna compare Mazdaspeed 3 with hondas, you better stack it up with a Type R or a RSX-S or even a WRX for comparison.

[k20a]

a stock civic SI will stomp your stock Mazda 3 anytime

to op: watch for r18 civics
cuz
si is outta ur league

and my car can smoke both those cars. lol who gives a shit.

[gramser57]

^


2500rpm?
try again


He drives a SE-R not a Spec-v

Engine QR25DE - 2.5-litre DOHC 16-valve 4-cyl. Engine Horsepower - 177 @ 6000 rpm
Torque - 172 lb-ft @ 2800 rpm

[Jackygor]

Unless you are tracking your car, or breaking road laws on a regular basis, RWD is a novelty.

I couldn't disagree more saying that RWD is a novelty. It is true that most people who owns a RWD cannot utilizes 10% of its full potential, be it on the track or on the road, but we live in an era of excess, everything from the things you wear to the things you eat, I would even go as far as to say that it is the social norm to have things that are well beyond our needs.

[Meowjin]

yes yes i know, i love mazdaspeed 3 dont get me wrong, its one of my top 3 favorite car around that price tag



anything with turbo/SC will get hp/torque

thats a no brainer

focus st gets about 160 lb of torque which is more than most 4 bangers and is NA.

[Evolutionian]

a stock civic SI will stomp your stock Mazda 3 anytime

to op: watch for r18 civics
cuz
si is outta ur league

i never said my "stock" mazda3 is going to stomp a stock SI?
and are we talking SI or Civics? we're talking hondas in general.

[shenmecar]

I couldn't disagree more saying that RWD is a novelty. It is true that most people who owns a RWD cannot utilizes 10% of its full potential, be it on the track or on the road, but we live in an era of excess, everything from the things you wear to the things you eat, I would even go as far as to say that it is the social norm to have things that are well beyond our needs.


That is a very true saying. People like the luxury of having MORE. Even if you don't ever use them. Case and point, that Dubai guy with 5000 cars (from the other thread).

Even as a kid, I would go compare who has the most Pokemon cards.

[hk20000]

FWD is fun. Until you are understeering into a barrier and have to bail out of the car GTA style.

[Zulu]

FWD = fail.
4 banger = fail.
v6 = fail.

[Meowjin]

^actually I think v6's are a perfect mix of economy and power.

[godwin]

The problem with V6 FWD currently is the extra weight and the limitation of the gearboxes.. While RWD, 7 speeds is getting to be the standard in the next 12 months.. because FWD's width limitation, you can't really go that route.

Also you are compromising the turning radius... The same problem, that doomed US cars as unweldy in 80s and 90s. Except this time we are doing turbos.

Unless some company invest in the iQ setup for higher power application, where the differential is actually in front of the drivetrain. FWD is limited.

As for power of the 4bangers.. even Honda admit VTEC / high RPM is not sustainable.. it is more fuel efficient to have most of the torque in the lower RPM range.

Again FWD is cost first, performance second.

^actually I think v6's are a perfect mix of economy and power.

[MaGNuM16]

Cobalt ss ftw I got my 07 ss from the dealer it came with stage 2 and I paid 13500 before taxes . Car is over alla good car , other than wheel hop. I dynoed it during rg dyno day 180whp and 163torq and the selection for after market parts is endless.

[FeistyBearH22a]

FWD = fail.
4 banger = fail.
v6 = fail.

Feel free to bring your car to the track and feel the fail from all the 4 bangers all night long.

[godwin]

Err wheel hop is a symptom of the design limitation of FWD.

Yes FWD is cheap, but good performance ie no wheel hopping is not.

Cobalt ss ftw I got my 07 ss from the dealer it came with stage 2 and I paid 13500 before taxes . Car is over alla good car , other than wheel hop. I dynoed it during rg dyno day 180whp and 163torq and the selection for after market parts is endless.

[Zulu]

Feel free to bring your car to the track and feel the fail from all the 4 bangers all night long.


And tell me, which FWD 4 banger is going to cause me to feel anything in the vette? Yeah that's what I thought. Go back to counting your MPG riceboi.


^actually I think v6's are a perfect mix of economy and power.

That's because you = fail.

[Lomac]

^actually I think v6's are a perfect mix of economy and power.

That's because you = fail.

:rolleyes:

I've owned vehicles with engines as small as a 1.8 4cyl (Jetta) and as large a 427 big block V8 ('Vette) and many engines inbetween, both N/A and F/I'ed. When I was younger, it seemed like there was nothing better in the world than having a giant V8 in front of your feet, but as priorities change and you start to actually think about things like fuel economy and how much money you're burning, you learn to compromise a bit. While I still love V8's, I don't see much in the way of practical use for 'em. They simply are a novelty for 99% of the time. I'll never go back to a tiny 4cyl again, but my current two cars consist of a 2.5 V6 and a 2.4 I4 and the power/acceleration of both are very similar (well, until the V6 finally get's the blower installed), though the I4 has sooo much better fuel economy.

So for the best compromise, I'm going to have to agree with Majinhurricane and state that V6's tend to be the best all-rounder solution.

[Lomac]

And tell me, which FWD 4 banger is going to cause me to feel anything in the vette? Yeah that's what I thought. Go back to counting your MPG riceboi.

My twin-turbo 1.8L RWD 200sx would have definitely given your 'Vette a run for it's money at Mission Raceway and would definitely have walked all over it in Auto-X. ;)

[Zulu]

:rolleyes:

-but as priorities change and you start to actually think about things like fuel economy and how much money you're burning, you learn to compromise a bit-


Personally, I'd just not get so poor that it mattered... but that's me.

My twin-turbo 1.8L RWD 200sx would have definitely given your 'Vette a run for it's money at Mission Raceway and would definitely have walked all over it in Auto-X. ;)

Mmmm, probably not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5pboIuiYAA
Like the audi and the red 64 stingray? ;)

[Lomac]

Personally, I'd just not get so poor that it mattered... but that's me.



Mmmm, probably not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5pboIuiYAA
Like the audi and the red 64 stingray? ;)

I've no idea what the point of that video was, but okay? Had a '63 Split window Vette with a 427 implanted into it. It sounded very similar to that. In fact, my '03 Mustang GT with a Borla system sounded just as good. But comparing V8 exhaust tones is kinda pointless in a thread intended for talking about FWD performance, no?

[1990TSI]

while FWD may be as gay as mugen evolutions boyfriend, after watching a few modded FWDs with slicks race around the auto-x course, I have a little more respect for them.
They can be quick, and funny to watch as their inside rear wheel lifts off the ground and stops moving around a hard corner.

I started out with FWDs, even put down almost 400hp in one, but it was stupid. between wheel hop and torque steer, and that fact that tires can either corner or put down power, not both, FWD is not a performance platform. Fun sure, but not as fun as RWD.

I understand where a lot of you are coming from though. RWD is hard to find these days. Honda doesn't make one, mazda doesn't make one, toyota doesn't make one etc etc. (I know the S2000 is available on the used market and Lexus makes a RWD car but wait)

To buy a new RWD these days what does it take? We'll leave the Genesis Coupe out of this cuz it's a hyundai and fuck all of you, but realisticly. there are no affordable rwd cars out there and most of you are honda fanbois. Not everyone wants to run a early 90s S chassis or a RHD skyline, and a lot of us can't afford to maintain a european car. That leaves the masses with FWD cars.

and with that said, people think FWD is good because there aren't enough RWD options out there.

More people need to drive a RWD sports car THEN make comments about FWD being anything but gay as mugen evolutions boyfriend.

[Zulu]

I've no idea what the point of that video was, but okay? Had a '63 Split window Vette with a 427 implanted into it. It sounded very similar to that. In fact, my '03 Mustang GT with a Borla system sounded just as good. But comparing V8 exhaust tones is kinda pointless in a thread intended for talking about FWD performance, no?

It's actually a thread about FWDs lack of performance.

:p

* FWD pwns offroad. well. until AWD came along.

[AzNightmare]

hmm... this thread is getting kind boring now..


so umm.. I have a friend of a friend... that says AWD's > RWD in drifting.
:D


:Popcorn:

[Blinky]

I understand where a lot of you are coming from though. RWD is hard to find these days. Honda doesn't make one, mazda doesn't make one, toyota doesn't make one etc etc. (I know the S2000 is available on the used market and Lexus makes a RWD car but wait)

What da phuc bich? :D

Gaymobile and RX-8 are RWD. All that said, no "daily driverish" type car is really RWD anymore. Mainly the luxo stuff and performance stuff.

and with that said, people think FWD is good because there aren't enough RWD options out there.

In terms of a daily driven car, FWD is superior - it's more economical, which is what should matter for a daily driven car. Fortunately your priorities are different. ;)

Lomac, unless that 200SX was incredibly heavily modified, it wouldn't keep up with a C5 on the track or on the skidpad. AutoX stock, the C5 is classed with stuff like the 997, Elise and Viper.... so... "good luck with that".

Don't ask me about drag though... ask this guy...

http://blakstone.com/Dragstravaganza%20Site/Images/RuPaul_fl.jpg

[CorneringArtist]

hmm... this thread is getting kind boring now..


so umm.. I have a friend of a friend... that says AWD's > RWD in drifting.
:D


:Popcorn:

LOLWUT? Maybe off-road, but there's what, like 10 or 20 AWD cars that are in professional drifting (might not be many in Europe)? Pass me some of the shit he's smoking.

[jeff_alexander]

Miata

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

while FWD may be as gay as mugen evolutions boyfriend, after watching a few modded FWDs with slicks race around the auto-x course, I have a little more respect for them.
They can be quick, and funny to watch as their inside rear wheel lifts off the ground and stops moving around a hard corner.

I started out with FWDs, even put down almost 400hp in one, but it was stupid. between wheel hop and torque steer, and that fact that tires can either corner or put down power, not both, FWD is not a performance platform. Fun sure, but not as fun as RWD.

I understand where a lot of you are coming from though. RWD is hard to find these days. Honda doesn't make one, mazda doesn't make one, toyota doesn't make one etc etc. (I know the S2000 is available on the used market and Lexus makes a RWD car but wait)

To buy a new RWD these days what does it take? We'll leave the Genesis Coupe out of this cuz it's a hyundai and fuck all of you, but realisticly. there are no affordable rwd cars out there and most of you are honda fanbois. Not everyone wants to run a early 90s S chassis or a RHD skyline, and a lot of us can't afford to maintain a european car. That leaves the masses with FWD cars.

and with that said, people think FWD is good because there aren't enough RWD options out there.

More people need to drive a RWD sports car THEN make comments about FWD being anything but gay as mugen evolutions boyfriend.

when the fuck did i ever fucking mention OHHH WOWWWW FWD over RWD/AWD? are u fucking blind or something?


get ur fucking fact straight motherufucker
:rolleyes::rolleyes:

buttom line

AWD > everything

when u have too much power/torque , FWD or RWD whether u like it or not its still gonna slip and have traction issues. Therefore AWD > all enough said

[civic_rice]

The sad thing is i work for ford, i get to drive the new vehicles when need be. the mustang gt's are not that fun to drive imo....When i drive something like that that should be a "sports car" and then i get in my civic and feel better performance, that makes me believe in fwd performance. I cant say i have driven a lot of different makes, but i know that Fwd's can be great cars....or they can be gay

[chwks13]

Personally, I'd just not get so poor that it mattered... but that's me.


FWD = fail.
4 banger = fail.
v6 = fail.


OK, I`m going on a rant here. I hate people like you. Why? You're ignorant and completely full of yourself. Guess what? Reality kick here.... not all of us had money handed down to us from Mommy and Daddy, won the lottery, or were stupid enough to take out a loan to buy an expensive vette. Some of us actually work hard for what we drive, and take pride in what we drive, whether we spent alot of money on our car, or a little, and I"m not gonna sit here and let some ignorant tool like you undermine and make fun of other people's cars.

I work as a mechanic and drive a 92 GSR. Yeah, it's a Honda. Yeah, it's FWD. It is what it is, it's a fun car to drive. I've had RWD (two RX7s), domestics, imports, I've driven them. Some were better than others, but I'm not going to go up to somebody with his Civic and tell him it's a piece of shit. Why? Because I have no right to. The whole point of the automotive community is to support each others projects, and enjoy it in the process. Not to shoot them down and tell them that their Civic will never be as great as the almighty Corvette.

So how about you learn to respect the fact that these cars have alot of potential. Sure, they're not nearly as expensive, and don't have that "bling" factor that your super-fantastic Corvette has, but guess what? If I was to dump the same amount of money that you spent on your vette into my GSR, I'd rape you on the track any day of the week. Just because you have money, doesn't make you better than the rest of us, so grow up.

[Evolutionian]

OK, I`m going on a rant here. I hate people like you. Why? You're ignorant and completely full of yourself. Guess what? Reality kick here.... not all of us had money handed down to us from Mommy and Daddy, won the lottery, or were stupid enough to take out a loan to buy an expensive vette. Some of us actually work hard for what we drive, and take pride in what we drive, whether we spent alot of money on our car, or a little, and I"m not gonna sit here and let some ignorant tool like you undermine and make fun of other people's cars.

I work as a mechanic and drive a 92 GSR. Yeah, it's a Honda. Yeah, it's FWD. It is what it is, it's a fun car to drive. I've had RWD (two RX7s), domestics, imports, I've driven them. Some were better than others, but I'm not going to go up to somebody with his Civic and tell him it's a piece of shit. Why? Because I have no right to. The whole point of the automotive community is to support each others projects, and enjoy it in the process. Not to shoot them down and tell them that their Civic will never be as great as the almighty Corvette.

So how about you learn to respect the fact that these cars have alot of potential. Sure, they're not nearly as expensive, and don't have that "bling" factor that your super-fantastic Corvette has, but guess what? If I was to dump the same amount of money that you spent on your vette into my GSR, I'd rape you on the track any day of the week. Just because you have money, doesn't make you better than the rest of us, so grow up.

Chose to be silence when i first saw zulu's post.
but i guess now that you open up the flame can, ill do my part :)

Corvettes arent even "Super Fantastics", they can easily get raped by an Evo on the track lol oh yeah and off the track as well, during rainy days as well, oh also during snowing days as well.


yeah grow the fuck up

[jdmhaze]

Corvettes arent even "Super Fantastics", they can easily get raped by an Evo on the track lol oh yeah and off the track as well, during rainy days as well, oh also during snowing days as well.

Lets not get TOO far ahead of ourselves. The ZR-1 isn't so bad....

http://www.atomicnerds.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/zr1.jpg

[RabidRat]

I don't think you can really say that FWD cars don't perform as well as RWD cars in a blanket statement. About the only thing you can say is that they're at a disadvantage: it takes more work to make a FWD car as fast as a comparable RWD car in motorsports.

OP: Same idea with the Mazda3 vs Si argument. I had a Mazda3, a 4dr 2.3L 5MT just like yours. With a little prep work (coilovers, swaybars, camber links, brake pads, ate superblue, intake, exhaust, wider stickier tires), I was practically running circles around the Si in my run group the last time I brought the car out to a lapping day. Yes the Si is a faster car out of the box, but that doesn't mean it has to stay that way =).

[FeistyBearH22a]

And tell me, which FWD 4 banger is going to cause me to feel anything in the vette? Yeah that's what I thought. Go back to counting your MPG riceboi.




That's because you = fail.

My car will.
Friday October 2nd for the street legals. Put your money where you fat mouth is.

[Evolutionian]

Lets not get TOO far ahead of ourselves. The ZR-1 isn't so bad....

http://www.atomicnerds.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/zr1.jpg

you know what, corvettes are actually one of my favorite cars.
i just simply dont like the fact that many corvette drivers are ignorant people.
and think their corvettes are the best in the world.

I don't think you can really say that FWD cars don't perform as well as RWD cars in a blanket statement. About the only thing you can say is that they're at a disadvantage: it takes more work to make a FWD car as fast as a comparable RWD car in motorsports.

OP: Same idea with the Mazda3 vs Si argument. I had a Mazda3, a 4dr 2.3L 5MT just like yours. With a little prep work (coilovers, swaybars, camber links, brake pads, ate superblue, intake, exhaust, wider stickier tires), I was practically running circles around the Si in my run group the last time I brought the car out to a lapping day. Yes the Si is a faster car out of the box, but that doesn't mean it has to stay that way =).

yaya. i havve about the same modification :)
and it handles quite nice, just takes alot of thraottle control around the corners to keep traction :(

[RabidRat]

Lets not get TOO far ahead of ourselves. The ZR-1 isn't so bad....

http://www.atomicnerds.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/zr1.jpg

sure.

but Mr. Zulu, drives a base model corvette from the '90s.

[FeistyBearH22a]

sure.

but Mr. Zulu, drives a base model corvette from the '90s.

Preach! ZR1 is a totally different animal all together.

Zulu is just a dumb ass douche bag that likes to generalize with out knowing what the fuck he's talking about.

[!SG]

performance is good n all, but lets talk comfort... my GS is up there, all it lacks it the flight attendant asking if you need another pillow.

=)

[Zulu]

OK, I`m going on a rant here. I hate people like you. Why? You're ignorant and completely full of yourself. Guess what? Reality kick here.... not all of us had money handed down to us from Mommy and Daddy, won the lottery, or were stupid enough to take out a loan to buy an expensive vette.

Are you implying that because you're stupid and poor, I had to get my money from my parents? I actually moved around internationally, started different businesses, and became successful from my own sweat and blood. Go fuck yourself.

If I was to dump the same amount of money that you spent on your vette into my GSR, I'd rape you on the track any day of the week. Just because you have money, doesn't make you better than the rest of us, so grow up.

Uh, probably not. The C5 is the best bang for the buck performance car you can buy these days. If we spend $1 for every $1 the other spends, I guarantee you my car will run like a raped ape (it already does), and yours... well... it'll make a BUZZZZZ sound down the street. I will always accelerate harder, brake harder, and turn harder than you. Not to mention, being able to STREET DAILY DRIVE AT OVER 650HP (7psi procharger) as opposed to... you... who would need a trailer and probably grenade anyway. Fuck, go checkout the DPE corvette on youtube, that beasts at 920hp (13psi).

My car will.
Friday October 2nd for the street legals. Put your money where you fat mouth is.

Uh, I'm in SoCal kiddo. You're welcome to come join the big boys whenever you want.

sure.
but Mr. Zulu, drives a base model corvette from the '90s.

I bought my vette for cash and sent it to Felix Cadillac for some upgrades, and it's not from the 90s. Listen to the video above and guess the current displacement. ;)



Zulu is just a dumb ass douche bag that likes to generalize with out knowing what the fuck he's talking about.

No, I'm the guy in the corvette that sounds like it's about to rip your face of, and you're the guy in the h22. hahaha.

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

I don't think you can really say that FWD cars don't perform as well as RWD cars in a blanket statement. About the only thing you can say is that they're at a disadvantage: it takes more work to make a FWD car as fast as a comparable RWD car in motorsports.

OP: Same idea with the Mazda3 vs Si argument. I had a Mazda3, a 4dr 2.3L 5MT just like yours. With a little prep work (coilovers, swaybars, camber links, brake pads, ate superblue, intake, exhaust, wider stickier tires), I was practically running circles around the Si in my run group the last time I brought the car out to a lapping day. Yes the Si is a faster car out of the box, but that doesn't mean it has to stay that way =).
i agree, stock suspension on the 3 is pretty decent for wat it is already

[Lomac]

Are you implying that because you're stupid and poor, I had to get my money from my parents? I actually moved around internationally, started different businesses, and became successful from my own sweat and blood. Go fuck yourself.



Uh, probably not. The C5 is the best bang for the buck performance car you can buy these days. If we spend $1 for every $1 the other spends, I guarantee you my car will run like a raped ape (it already does), and yours... well... it'll make a BUZZZZZ sound down the street. I will always accelerate harder, brake harder, and turn harder than you. Not to mention, being able to STREET DAILY DRIVE AT OVER 650HP (7psi procharger) as opposed to... you... who would need a trailer and probably grenade anyway. Fuck, go checkout the DPE corvette on youtube, that beasts at 920hp (13psi).



Uh, I'm in SoCal kiddo. You're welcome to come join the big boys whenever you want.



I bought my vette for cash and sent it to Felix Cadillac for some upgrades, and it's not from the 90s. Listen to the video above and guess the current displacement. ;)




No, I'm the guy in the corvette that sounds like it's about to rip your face of, and you're the guy in the h22. hahaha.

Wow, we now have a Marco911 of the 'Vette variety! :lol

[d1]

There are many fwd cars that I like that are faster than my car but even so, I'd prefer mine. It's more about how well it feels than how fast it drives.

[Zulu]

Wow, we now have a Marco911 of the 'Vette variety! :lol

Kid, do your research. I'm not exactly new.

[Meowjin]

i never knew v6's were fail... considering some of the best engines ever made were twin turbo v6's.

[Volvo-brickster]

Kid, do your research. I'm not exactly new.

im fairly certain you once photoshopped a swastika on the forehead of some girl and posted on RS :haha:

[chwks13]

Are you implying that because you're stupid and poor, I had to get my money from my parents? I actually moved around internationally, started different businesses, and became successful from my own sweat and blood. Go fuck yourself.

Nope. I'm just saying that just because you have money doesn't make you special. Obviously it's a sensitive subject for you, so i'll leave it alone ;)

And yeah, I'm stupid and poor :)

Uh, probably not. The C5 is the best bang for the buck performance car you can buy these days. If we spend $1 for every $1 the other spends, I guarantee you my car will run like a raped ape (it already does), and yours... well... it'll make a BUZZZZZ sound down the street. I will always accelerate harder, brake harder, and turn harder than you. Not to mention, being able to STREET DAILY DRIVE AT OVER 650HP (7psi procharger) as opposed to... you... who would need a trailer and probably grenade anyway. Fuck, go checkout the DPE corvette on youtube, that beasts at 920hp (13psi).

No, you don't get what I'm saying. I don't know about where you're from, but around here, expect to pay about $25,000 for a C5 Vette. Great. Now, I bought my GSR for about $4,000. So that leaves me with $21,000 in mods I'd have to make just to spend the same amount on my car as you did on yours. If I were to do that, the GSR would be well ahead of you. Of course, I'm not going to, because I have other financial priorities in my life like buying a house, but you should at least see what I'm saying here.

Uh, I'm in SoCal kiddo. You're welcome to come join the big boys whenever you want.


It all makes sense now. Please stay there.

[FeistyBearH22a]

It all makes sense now. Please stay there.

God know's they need more fat retards down there.

[RabidRat]

Kid, do your research. I'm not exactly new.

I was just about to say, you and your marco911 sentiments are getting old.

[impactX]

haha Welcome back Zulu.

[Zulu]

haha Welcome back Zulu.

Return in style amirite? ;P

[Evolutionian]

maybe look at the AMS evo? lol

2.3L 4 cyl with 1130AWHP, you can kiss that 4 cyl ass good bye :)

daily drivable, and winter drivable as well, you just have a to be a good driver

[Meowjin]

:facepalm:

[asahai69]

No, you don't get what I'm saying. I don't know about where you're from, but around here, expect to pay about $25,000 for a C5 Vette. Great. Now, I bought my GSR for about $4,000. So that leaves me with $21,000 in mods I'd have to make just to spend the same amount on my car as you did on yours. If I were to do that, the GSR would be well ahead of you. Of course, I'm not going to, because I have other financial priorities in my life like buying a house, but you should at least see what I'm saying here.




i dont understand this logic. lets say sum dude had a lambo. i drove a sti. spent the $300 000 difference in upgrades i would still be totally behind. because im still driving a fucking Subaru. plus id look like a fucking moron spending 300k on a car worth a tenth of the price.

[bcrdukes]

^
What he's trying to say is, there are a lot of other things in life that are far more important than fast and expensive cars.

[Great68]

Is this the same FB RX7 Zulu?

If so, good job on the vette, that's just a little bit of an upgrade hey?

[AzNightmare]

lol, can't believe this is still going on. Just be happy with what you drive and stop shitting on other people's cars. If you keep bragging about your car, karma's gonna get you, and some idiots gonna run a red and T-bone your precious car. Then it's gone. :cry:

There's more to life than just cars.

[Johnrb]

fwds might have less potential but i wouldn't say their performance is non
existent O.o?

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Tsukuba-Time-Attack-EG6_34944.htm

[orgasm_donor]

Once I went back to RWD it was hard to think of anything else ever again...until I saw the new Euro Focus RS. That is one car (If we ever saw it in Canada) that I would rock and its 100% FWD. This thing is an STi and Evo contender and because of its limited slip, has nearly zero torque steer. 305-hp, 2.5L five-cylinder motor with 325 lb-ft of torque!

http://image.motortrend.com/f/17027737+w750/112_0902_03z+2010_ford_focus_RS+front_three_quarte rs_view.jpg

[TOMEI-RB26DETT]

http://ll.speedhunters.com/u/f/eagames/NFS/speedhunters.com/Images/Dino%20Dalle%20Carbonare/September2009/WTCC-Day3/IMG_0567.jpg

http://ll.speedhunters.com/u/f/eagames/NFS/speedhunters.com/Images/Dino%20Dalle%20Carbonare/September2009/WTCC-Day2/IMG_0247.jpg

[AzNightmare]

Once I went back to RWD it was hard to think of anything else ever again...until I saw the new Euro Focus RS. That is one car (If we ever saw it in Canada) that I would rock and its 100% FWD. This thing is an STi and Evo contender and because of its limited slip, has nearly zero torque steer. 305-hp, 2.5L five-cylinder motor with 325 lb-ft of torque!

http://image.motortrend.com/f/17027737+w750/112_0902_03z+2010_ford_focus_RS+front_three_quarte rs_view.jpg

Looks better than the current gen STI too.

[Johnrb]

Looks better than the current gen STI too.

not to mention
IT SOUNDS BADASS!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GCT2zHKi_0&feature=player_embedded#t=108

[godwin]

I have pointed out in one of the post that it is the RevoKnuckle that does most of the job of keeping the contact patches on the ground. The Quaife LSD provides even power.

Hopefully RevoKnuckle will survive to the next generation and we will get it in the 11 Focus.

Once I went back to RWD it was hard to think of anything else ever again...until I saw the new Euro Focus RS. That is one car (If we ever saw it in Canada) that I would rock and its 100% FWD. This thing is an STi and Evo contender and because of its limited slip, has nearly zero torque steer. 305-hp, 2.5L five-cylinder motor with 325 lb-ft of torque!

[CivicTypeRice]

i dont understand this logic. lets say sum dude had a lambo. i drove a sti. spent the $300 000 difference in upgrades i would still be totally behind. because im still driving a fucking Subaru. plus id look like a fucking moron spending 300k on a car worth a tenth of the price.

No STI needed. A civic with 20G under the hood will do the job!

Notice; street tires on the civic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaSk6atfuHA

Better view
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE6X5AX_wN8

You were saying?

[asahai69]

who cares if its faster than a lambo. its always gonna be a civic. which part of this do you not understand.

[Rikaro]

who cares if its faster than a lambo. its always gonna be a civic. which part of this do you not understand.

That's because the brand and image are more important than you. Not everyone cares about that when they're buying a car.

[91civicZC]

who cares if its faster than a lambo. its always gonna be a civic. which part of this do you not understand.

I always think talk like this is funny.

Its kind of like those "Even if you win driving a Honda, your still retarded" pictures. Who is more retarded, the guy who drives the eco box, or the guy who just raced and lost to an eco box?

Im a car guy. I like cars. Doesn’t matter what it is, Ill give anyone respect if they like a car enough to put some effort and money into it. Doesn’t matter if its a Cavalier or Lambo, if you like it and its done tastefully, good on you. I personally like Hondas, a lot. Some guys dont, that’s okay.

But to say "who cars if its faster than a Lambo, its still a civic" is pretty goofy. The lambo took his car to a drag strip, and got knocked. That’s a funny race, the bottom basement civic Vs a very high end car. The bargain eco box wins.

Anyone would half a brain would take the Lambo over the civic, but give the guy some props for building what looks to be a pretty clean quick FWD car. Saying "who cares, its still a civic" just makes you sound butt hurt.

[Jackygor]

but its a lamborghini murcielago....

some of you guys remind me of the dude in this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojB7KkaR03I

[CivicTypeRice]

who cares if its faster than a lambo. its always gonna be a civic. which part of this do you not understand.
^ A response from someone who has nothing better to say.

[SumAznGuy]

but around here, expect to pay about $25,000 for a C5 Vette. Great. Now, I bought my GSR for about $4,000. So that leaves me with $21,000 in mods I'd have to make just to spend the same amount on my car as you did on yours. If I were to do that, the GSR would be well ahead of you. Of course, I'm not going to, because I have other financial priorities in my life like buying a house, but you should at least see what I'm saying here.

Let's run the numbers.
On CL, $25,000 can get you this Z06.
http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/rch/ctd/1393686391.html
or this regular C5.
http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/pml/cto/1392443543.html

Say you had a GSR for $4000. What mods would you do with $21,000?
Say you spend $7K for a turbo kit. $2K on a set of light weight wheels and R-comp tires.
$3K for coil-overs, sway bars, and strut tower bars.
$1500 on an LSD, $500-1K for upgraded clutch, $$$ for an engine build. BBK?
Exhaust?
CF hood and trunk to save weight. Your $21K isn't going to go too far and will your GSR keep up with either of those 2 Vettes on the track? Say the only mods on either of those 2 cars are race pads and R-comp tires.
And can you DD that GSR with a heavy race clutch?

[124Y]

I would choose that lambo for DD over the civic even though the civic is faster (If I were to choose one for a drag race, i would choose the civic obviously).

OVERALL, for me the lambo is a far better car than that civic in the video. Everything from Aesthetics, driving experience(mid engine, V12, seating position, etc), identity, brand + model history and tradition, comfort, material of choice, quality, image, and a lot of unmeasurable factors that spanks that civic.

Chris Bangle refers to great cars as "art", which I can totally relate to. There is just so much more beyond performance in a car that a lot of people tend to neglect.

[shenmecar]

That turbo Civic VS murcielago doesnt prove anything other than its a quick dragster.

It doesnt mean the Civic is BETTER than the murcielago. It just proves its FASTER in a straight line.

Murcielago would still win all around.

Lets take the same cars to a race track and do a lap. I think the lambo would win.

Take the same cars to, say Robson and cruise, I think the lambo would turn more heads.

Take the same cars to a nice scenic place for a photoshoot. I think the lambo would make more little boys jizz in their pants.

Props to the Civic's owner for building a car HE likes. But it still aint better than a Lambo imo.

[jdmhaze]

Is this really happening? A Honda is being put beside a Lamborghini for comparison? Please refrain from stating the complete obvious.

[Zulu]

Let's run the numbers.
On CL, $25,000 can get you this Z06.
http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/rch/ctd/1393686391.html
or this regular C5.
http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/pml/cto/1392443543.html

Say you had a GSR for $4000. What mods would you do with $21,000?
Say you spend $7K for a turbo kit. $2K on a set of light weight wheels and R-comp tires.
$3K for coil-overs, sway bars, and strut tower bars.
$1500 on an LSD, $500-1K for upgraded clutch, $$$ for an engine build. BBK?
Exhaust?
CF hood and trunk to save weight. Your $21K isn't going to go too far and will your GSR keep up with either of those 2 Vettes on the track? Say the only mods on either of those 2 cars are race pads and R-comp tires.
And can you DD that GSR with a heavy race clutch?



If he's buying a $4k GSR odds are he can't afford the $7k to make it go fast in the first place.

;)

[Meowjin]

No STI needed. A civic with 20G under the hood will do the job!

Notice; street tires on the civic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaSk6atfuHA

Better view
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE6X5AX_wN8

You were saying?

:facepalm:

[SumAznGuy]

If he's buying a $4k GSR odds are he can't afford the $7k to make it go fast in the first place.

;)

Good point.
Who remembers a few years ago when Sport Compact had their first Ultimate Street Car challenge?
The winner was a bone stock Ferarri on Hoosier tires. How does this relate to this topic, well the stock Z06 on Hoosiers tires is going to be fast at the drag strip, autoX, and track.
Because it is stock, it is fine as a DD and will have little to no mechanical issues.
Take that turbo'd GSR and keep a spare tranny and drive shafts in case those break at the track. Save some money for a motor rebuild incase you detonate the motor.
And you will be cursing your head off when you are stuck in stop and go traffic with the race clutch.

[Lomac]

That turbo Civic VS murcielago doesnt prove anything other than its a quick dragster.

It doesnt mean the Civic is BETTER than the murcielago. It just proves its FASTER in a straight line.

Murcielago would still win all around.

Lets take the same cars to a race track and do a lap. I think the lambo would win.

Take the same cars to, say Robson and cruise, I think the lambo would turn more heads.

Take the same cars to a nice scenic place for a photoshoot. I think the lambo would make more little boys jizz in their pants.

Props to the Civic's owner for building a car HE likes. But it still aint better than a Lambo imo.

Is this really happening? A Honda is being put beside a Lamborghini for comparison? Please refrain from stating the complete obvious.

The argument was that a FWD econobox could never match the ability of a more powerful, focus-driven RWD performance car. There was never any intention of comparing the sex appeal and desirability of a Lamborghini to a Civic. You guys are trying to read far too much into something that was never there to begin with.

[!Yaminashi]

I cant believe i'm going to say this, but I really want a Focus RS after watching that video

[asahai69]

I always think talk like this is funny.

Its kind of like those "Even if you win driving a Honda, your still retarded" pictures. Who is more retarded, the guy who drives the eco box, or the guy who just raced and lost to an eco box?

Im a car guy. I like cars. Doesn’t matter what it is, Ill give anyone respect if they like a car enough to put some effort and money into it. Doesn’t matter if its a Cavalier or Lambo, if you like it and its done tastefully, good on you. I personally like Hondas, a lot. Some guys dont, that’s okay.

But to say "who cars if its faster than a Lambo, its still a civic" is pretty goofy. The lambo took his car to a drag strip, and got knocked. That’s a funny race, the bottom basement civic Vs a very high end car. The bargain eco box wins.

Anyone would half a brain would take the Lambo over the civic, but give the guy some props for building what looks to be a pretty clean quick FWD car. Saying "who cares, its still a civic" just makes you sound butt hurt.

are there any times in the video. for all we know the guy in the lambo was taking it easy. seeing isnt believing when it comes to the internet buddy. lol for fuck sakes. look at the first video. did you notice how awesome the first two cars were. then u see the civic doing the gayest burnout ever. lol. u wanna give "props" to that? a civic will always be a civic. honestly. if a mustang were the one killing the lambo you would definatley say the same thing. "oh fuck it, lambo is stock, mustang modded. its just a RUSTang"

you wanna see what really is a good comparison? take a stock fox body mustang. about 10g. buy a civic worth the same price. both each add 20g in mods to it. do you seriously think the civic will be faster? give me a break.

[91civicZC]

If it was a mustang beating the Lambo, good on him. Do I see it as the same accomplishment? Not really, as bank for buck, it’s pretty hard to beat a well modded mustang. Still though, Your assumption I would jump up and say "fucking mustang" is again, pretty weak on your part and also incorrect. I would actually probably laugh and just think about how pissed the Lambo owner would be as he watched the mustang pass him. If you read my post, you would see, Ill respect anything done tastefully if someone loves it enough to put the effort in. I have no issues with mustangs. Apparently you have a pretty big problem with Civics that maybe you should look into. Again, your just coming off butt hurt. I'm wondering why?

Your argument then meanders into something that is not even remotely related to what we are talking about. But Ill play along.

Your right, put both those cars together with the same amount in them, and the Mustang would probably EAT the Civic. So when a guy builds a Civic that can tear one down, why can’t you give him props? Because he didn’t sign the same check as you? Or is it because in your eyes “It’ll always be a Civic”? Great argument. How does this relate to FWD Performance again?

Built not bought still means something to some people, myself included. A car that’s built well with tasteful parts will always get more respect from me that someone who can sign a big check. Would I take the Civic over the Lambo? Of course not. Does the guy who owns the Lambo care what I think? Obviously not. Was that what we were talking about? Nope. We were talking about FWD performance. Does it exist? The video above illustrates it does along with countless Grassroots racing Chamionships and wins in all sorts of diffrent racing classes from Pro to your local Solo 2. Nuff said.

[Great68]

I would actually probably laugh and just think about how pissed the Lambo owner would be as he watched the mustang pass him.

Why would/should the lambo owner be pissed?

[!Yaminashi]

Why would/should the lambo owner be pissed?

I'm guessing cause the mustang costs 1/3 of what the lambo does and the lambo was passed..

[asahai69]

lol. im sure if the guy could afford a lambo, and was serious about drag racing. he would build himself a drag car.

[asahai69]

If it was a mustang beating the Lambo, good on him. Do I see it as the same accomplishment? Not really, as bank for buck, it’s pretty hard to beat a well modded mustang. Still though, Your assumption I would jump up and say "fucking mustang" is again, pretty weak on your part and also incorrect. I would actually probably laugh and just think about how pissed the Lambo owner would be as he watched the mustang pass him. If you read my post, you would see, Ill respect anything done tastefully if someone loves it enough to put the effort in. I have no issues with mustangs. Apparently you have a pretty big problem with Civics that maybe you should look into. Again, your just coming off butt hurt. I'm wondering why?

Your argument then meanders into something that is not even remotely related to what we are talking about. But Ill play along.

Your right, put both those cars together with the same amount in them, and the Mustang would probably EAT the Civic. So when a guy builds a Civic that can tear one down, why can’t you give him props? Because he didn’t sign the same check as you? Or is it because in your eyes “It’ll always be a Civic”? Great argument. How does this relate to FWD Performance again?

Built not bought still means something to some people, myself included. A car that’s built well with tasteful parts will always get more respect from me that someone who can sign a big check. Would I take the Civic over the Lambo? Of course not. Does the guy who owns the Lambo care what I think? Obviously not. Was that what we were talking about? Nope. We were talking about FWD performance. Does it exist? The video above illustrates it does along with countless Grassroots racing Chamionships and wins in all sorts of diffrent racing classes from Pro to your local Solo 2. Nuff said.

see. you got in here a little bit late. i was talking about the zulu/chwkef little arguement.

but if you want to talk about FWD performance. can you get performance out of a FWD car? Yes. would sumthing RWD or AWD destroy it? Yes. is a civic a good car? Yes. but not for anything other than going from point A to point B

[unit]

Looks better than the current gen STI too.

good performer but looks like a complete ricemobile in a box.
colors like lime green belong on exotic supercars.

[Great68]

I'm guessing cause the mustang costs 1/3 of what the lambo does

That's the key.

If I was in the lambo I wouldn't be pissed, I'd be the one that can afford a car that costs 3 times as much.

[91civicZC]

That's the key.

If I was in the lambo I wouldn't be pissed, I'd be the one that can afford a car that costs 3 times as much.


Most of the guys who I have met who own Lambos dont see it that way. Hopefully exceptions to the rule, as I would rather see a Lambo go to a car enthusiast rather than just some dude whos got money and dosent know what else to do with it.

[CivicTypeRice]

are there any times in the video. for all we know the guy in the lambo was taking it easy. seeing isnt believing when it comes to the internet buddy. lol for fuck sakes. look at the first video. did you notice how awesome the first two cars were. then u see the civic doing the gayest burnout ever. lol. u wanna give "props" to that? a civic will always be a civic. honestly. if a mustang were the one killing the lambo you would definatley say the same thing. "oh fuck it, lambo is stock, mustang modded. its just a RUSTang"

you wanna see what really is a good comparison? take a stock fox body mustang. about 10g. buy a civic worth the same price. both each add 20g in mods to it. do you seriously think the civic will be faster? give me a break.
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk89/amit87/butthurtalertwi6.jpg

[Meowjin]

^i'll take an italian supermodel over integragirl ty.

[Great68]

Most of the guys who I have met who own Lambos dont see it that way. Hopefully exceptions to the rule, as I would rather see a Lambo go to a car enthusiast rather than just some dude whos got money and dosent know what else to do with it.

These lambo owners you have met seem to be pretty ignorant then and if they are get butthurt just because they get beat by a modified "cheaper" car, then they bought their lambo for the wrong reasons.

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

That's the key.

If I was in the lambo I wouldn't be pissed, I'd be the one that can afford a car that costs 3 times as much.

i think the key is that when u spend $400g on a car


u would normally think you are the king of the hill

fastest and most amazing piece of art a man can buy in every single category

VEYRON boooyaaa

[91civicZC]

These lambo owners you have met seem to be pretty ignorant then and if they are get butthurt just because they get beat by a modified "cheaper" car, then they bought their lambo for the wrong reasons.

Yup, they were all pretty much douche bags. I have only met three that I can remember. Not one was a car guy, just people with too much money.

Yes, it made me jealous.

[SumAznGuy]

i think the key is that when u spend $400g on a car


u would normally think you are the king of the hill

fastest and most amazing piece of art a man can buy in every single category

VEYRON boooyaaa

Sounds like the same stereotype of guy in F&F.

More than you can afford, Ferarri!!!!!

As for me, I am a total car guy. If I could afford to race a Lambo, I would totally do it up, like what asahai69 said.

[hk20000]

^ that's if you can afford to do up a lambo.

Lambo parts are super expensive a modded up lambo easily costs twice the MSRP of the original lambo.

[Meowjin]

fuck this site is hilarious.

post up the hyundai and people would cry that it's in s-class territory but post up a modded civic and people would rather have the civic over a lambo?

[RabidRat]

You can do decent things with McHappy struts, but if one is designing a performance car from the ground up, one generally wouldn't start with a strut setup.

FWD is never going to be able to put down power like RWD or have the handling balance quite like RWD either.

You know the 911 Turbo has MacPherson struts up front? =)

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

^


didnt know that

[Blinky]

You know the 911 Turbo has MacPherson struts up front? =)

And the 911 is borked. Struts in front, engine waaay in the back.

Porsche from the ground up for an all-out car: take a look at the CGT. Double a-arm suspension and a mid engine.

[!Yaminashi]

And the 911 is borked. Struts in front, engine waaay in the back.

Porsche from the ground up for an all-out car: take a look at the CGT. Double a-arm suspension and a mid engine.

Carrera GT <3

[RabidRat]

And the 911 is borked. Struts in front, engine waaay in the back.

Porsche from the ground up for an all-out car: take a look at the CGT. Double a-arm suspension and a mid engine.

The 911 GT2 is still no slouch though, and it has that same MacPherson strut front, multilink rear. Same exact suspension setup btw, as a Mazda3.

You know the Mk4 Supra has dbl wishbone suspension front and rear? The thing is a pig; I think we can all agree a 911 GT2 would far outhandle it.

Idk. It's not that I disagree with you - Mac struts have crappy dynamic camber right? They gain positive camber as suspension compresses, while dbl wishbone/A-arm gains negative on compression? I always thought MacPherson struts were reserved for 1)saving space, 2)cutting cost, 3)durability (for say, rally cars). It's just bizarre that you find these things on such high end cars.

[Blinky]

I've never driven a SouPraaaaaaaa or GT2, so I won't guess. There's more that goes into a car's handling than just what type of suspension it uses.

Modern McStruts don't gain positive camber -- that would truly suck -- rather they don't gain very much negative camber when compressed. That aside, many German companies have really refined McStruts (look at BMW). I think it's just a well-engineered artifact on the 911, like the ass-engine. If it ain't broke...

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

mazda 3 uses MacPherson strut as well?


i thought honda was on crack putting that shit on MacPherson strut, when all the others are double wisbone (sp)

[orgasm_donor]

All I know is that my '03 Civic couple handles like an overweight pig in heat because of its asstastic suspension. Its a little bit lowered too but that doesn't make any difference. Gay Civic.

[RabidRat]

...if one is designing a performance car from the ground up, one generally wouldn't start with a strut setup...

There's more that goes into a car's handling than just what type of suspension it uses.


I think in the original context you were saying that newer civics with the new strut type suspension up front don't handle well because of their Mac struts. Is it necessarily true then?

I did some more digging and found out that the M3 and Z4 have Mac struts in front too. The M3 somewhat makes sense because it's built off a common 3 series, but the Z4 doesn't really have much of an excuse seeing as how it's built from the ground up with its own platform. Maybe it's just gotten to that point where Mac struts just aren't the limitation they used to be.

[SumAznGuy]

That's not true. Mac struts will always have limitations when comparing them the double wishbone type suspensions. But one of the issues with an independant suspension is the around of room you have to package everything.

And not all double wishbones are created equally. You need to take into consideration suspension geometry and a bunch of other things that are beyond me. Take a quick peek at some of the info on suspension on the VCMC forums and you will see what I mean.

Cost is another factor when car manufacturers design their cars.

[Blinky]

I think in the original context you were saying that newer civics with the new strut type suspension up front don't handle well because of their Mac struts. Is it necessarily true then?

All else being equal, a double A-arm suspension will be better than a strut-type suspension. Both old and new civics are front drive, front engine; the newer civic is heavier too which doesn't help. Without driving them back-to-back I would confidently guess that the older civic will be a bit nicer, because they're fairly comparable cars.

Conversely the SoooooooUUUUPRA and Peenmobile are quite different in layout, and I'm guessing weight. A "good" implementation of a more fundamentally limited design will be better than a "crappy" implementation of a fundamentally "better" design.

(compare a modern small-displacement inline 4 with an early 80s V8)

Maybe it's just gotten to that point where Mac struts just aren't the limitation they used to be.

99.9% of the time McStrut vs double a-arm doesn't matter. It certainly doesn't matter in day-to-day driving, and it's obviously possible to have tons of fun with McStruts. For that 0.1% of the time though (such as any high level of motorsport), the difference in performance makes the additional cost etc worth it.

[SumAznGuy]

All else being equal, a double A-arm suspension will be better than a strut-type suspension. Both old and new civics are front drive, front engine; the newer civic is heavier too which doesn't help. Without driving them back-to-back I would confidently guess that the older civic will be a bit nicer, because they're fairly comparable cars.

The 8th gen Civics run a Mac strut front with a Double wishbone rear. From a handling point of view, with mod for mod, the older Civic is definately a lot more fun to drive.
Just ask James and Roger in their STS Civic.

As for the Supra vs GT2, that isn't a fair comparison since the 2 cars do not belong in the same class. The Supra is more of a tourer while the GT2 is an all out sports car. Stock for stock, the GT2 has stiffer springs than the Supra. Different tires. The supra is longer with an inline 6 and a full trunk while the GT2 has the engine over the rear wheels.

Why not compare a C2 vs a GT3. Stock for stock, the C2 is deffinately not in the same league as the GT3.

But once you allow mods to band-aid specific short comings, things can get interesting really quickly.

I can't remember the specific year, and I don't feel like goggling it right now. But Al Unser Jr. won the Indy 500 and the following year both him and his team mate couldn't qualify for the same race. The reason was because the car had issues with the handling and the previous year, the problem was masked by the higher powered motor. The following year, CART limited hp production and so they found themselves not being able to compete with the other teams.