[!Yaminashi]

I need help again. I swear this will be my last thread :p
Today I went laptop shopping since all the xmas sales are starting up. Some of the prices were pretty good, a little over my budget but I decided to bite the bullet anyway. I went to bestbuy, then to london drugs, then to future shop, then back to bestbuy and had decided on a Toshiba Satellite.

It was a dual core, 2.1ghz, 4GB of ram and a 400GB hard drive. All of that for $529 I thought I was getting the best deal evar..
However when I told the guys at best buy I was using it for autocad and they went

"OOoohh.. this might not run it that well because its got an integrated graphics card, not dedicated." ...... Great...

From my other thread some of you guys were saying that if my drawings are just line drawings (which for the most part, they are) then it shouldn't really matter. But I thought about it, and the further I get into this course, the more I'll probably need my laptop. So I might as well get something decent/somewhat powerful while I'm at it.

So now I'm pretty much back at square one. I know next to nothing about computers (especially graphics cards). After talking with sales reps I'm probably looking at spending around $800 or so after tax..
What should I be looking for in terms of graphics cards?
Specific laptop model suggestions would be awesome too :)

Sorry I know I'm noob :(

[kchan]

PM ME
lets go line up for the ncix grand opening
theres laptops that for sale that are discounted!

[underscore]

Here's your problem YOU LISTENED TO THE GUYS AT THE STORE. Never, ever, ever listen to a person who works at the store, especially in the computers department. I'm no computer genius, but I had to take some computer classes in college and am essentially A+ certified (just like the FS jerkoffs, and I didn't learn much beyond what I already knew) and every single time I go in a computer department, I'm correcting the people that work there.

The only reason to go interact at all with the people in the store is when you walk in and tell them "I want one of those." Don't buy anything they suggest, no PSP, no cables no batteries NOTHING, just go in and get what you've already researched and decided on at home.

[underscore]

Also what are the requirements for your CAD program? Surely that would help you decide what you'll need.

[!Yaminashi]

Here's your problem YOU LISTENED TO THE GUYS AT THE STORE. Never, ever, ever listen to a person who works at the store, especially in the computers department. I'm no computer genius, but I had to take some computer classes in college and am essentially A+ certified (just like the FS jerkoffs, and I didn't learn much beyond what I already knew) and every single time I go in a computer department, I'm correcting the people that work there.

The only reason to go interact at all with the people in the store is when you walk in and tell them "I want one of those." Don't buy anything they suggest, no PSP, no cables no batteries NOTHING, just go in and get what you've already researched and decided on at home.

Dont worry, I turned down everything they offered me. But they did bring up a valid point. While I'm getting a laptop for CAD, I'd rather buy something that does the job with ease, rather than something that just cuts it. (If that makes sense?)

As for requirements, I just googled the autocad 2010 requirements, as thats the latest version.

It requires 1.6ghz dual core, at least 1GB of ram. However it didnt say anything about a graphics card on the site.

So now I'm asking you guys for some suggestions on specific models :)

EDIT: If it helps, leaning towards a Toshiba.
Ideally I'd like:

-Dual core at least 2.0GHZ
-3+GB of ram
-250GB hard drive is plenty for me.

But its the damn graphics card that I know absolutely nothing about. :(

[underscore]

If it doesn't mention graphics, then I wouldn't worry about it. If you really want to be sure, I'd say e-mail the Autocad 2010 people and ask. Yes CAD can generate a lot of pretty images, but I don't think it's very demanding on the graphics card, to the best of my knowledge all the rendering, etc is done by the CPU, and the video card just spits out the image it's given at the end.

[Razor Ramon HG]

Blah, I just sold my Lenovo Y550 the other day which would've suited your needs for $750.

Intel T6500, 4GB DDR3, 320GB HD, NVIDIA GT130M.

[underscore]

Also, courtesy of http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/index?siteID=123112&id=13784795

Additional Requirements for 3D Modeling (All Configurations)

Intel Pentium 4 processor or AMD Athlon, 3 GHz or higher; Intel or AMD dual-core processor, 2 GHz or higher
2 GB RAM or greater
2 GB hard disk space available in addition to free space required for installation
1,280 x 1,024 32-bit color video display adapter (true color) 128 MB or greater, Microsoft® Direct3D® capable workstation class graphics card

So even for the 3D, you only need 128MB worth of video memory. I say go back to Best Buy and get that Toshiba

[!Yaminashi]

Also, courtesy of http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/index?siteID=123112&id=13784795



So even for the 3D, you only need 128MB worth of video memory. I say go back to Best Buy and get that Toshiba

Thanks underscore! :)
For my own reference, whats a good graphics card for more demanding applications?
I might as well learn something while I'm here :p

Side note: This is the toshiba I had picked out http://www.bestbuy.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?sku_id=0926INGFS10132444&catid=28239&PCName=laptop_toshiba&logon=&langid=EN

[underscore]

Well when I got my laptop (2 years ago) everything was running an integrated NVidia 6150, and the HP 6424 I got (and still have) was the only thing in my price range running a dedicated graphics card, a 7200. Even this is only part dedicated and takes system RAM when needed but even still I max out my CPU before I run out of RAM or video (Turion 64 x2, 1.9GHz).

So basically anything in your price range with a dedicated card is gonna be better than one without. I couldn't see any Toshibas on the FS site, I went up to $699.99 before tax and found 4 with dedicated graphics though.

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10132285&catid=

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10131718&catid=

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10132131&catid=

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10131277&catid=

I have never heard of MSI though.

All the Toshibas I found on the BB site had integrated graphics

[underscore]

side note, my processor is a Turion 64 x2, does this mean I can run 64 bit? If so I'll have to add it to the list of shit I never knew before.

[!Yaminashi]

Well when I got my laptop (2 years ago) everything was running an integrated NVidia 6150, and the HP 6424 I got (and still have) was the only thing in my price range running a dedicated graphics card, a 7200. Even this is only part dedicated and takes system RAM when needed but even still I max out my CPU before I run out of RAM or video (Turion 64 x2, 1.9GHz).

So basically anything in your price range with a dedicated card is gonna be better than one without. I couldn't see any Toshibas on the FS site, I went up to $699.99 before tax and found 4 with dedicated graphics though.

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10132285&catid=

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10131718&catid=

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10132131&catid=

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10131277&catid=

I have never heard of MSI though.

All the Toshibas I found on the BB site had integrated graphics

Thanks man, that really helps alot
Even though you said I'll be safe with the toshiba maybe I'll go a bit higher and get something with dedicated graphics

[underscore]

Also just hit up the Toshiba Canada site, there aren't any in your price range with dedicated graphics.

I just saw your link to the one you were looking at, I'd say go for that. Even though it's integrated graphics with 4GB of RAM you've got enough to share, and for the most part only games are heavily demanding on your GPU.

edit: If you want the dedicated graphics then to me all the specs look the same aside from slightly more processing power out of the two with the 6600 vs the two with the 4300, someone else around here should know more about processors and if it's worth the $50-$120 more

[ddr]

does anyone have a definitive answer about if autoCAD utilizes your GPU? I always thought it was solely dependent on CPU/RAM

[!Yaminashi]

Also just hit up the Toshiba Canada site, there aren't any in your price range with dedicated graphics.

I just saw your link to the one you were looking at, I'd say go for that. Even though it's integrated graphics with 4GB of RAM you've got enough to share, and for the most part only games are heavily demanding on your GPU.

edit: If you want the dedicated graphics then to me all the specs look the same aside from slightly more processing power out of the two with the 6600 vs the two with the 4300, someone else around here should know more about processors and if it's worth the $50-$120 more

Thanks man, hopefully someone else can chime in
Will the toshiba I posted will be ok playing movies etc? The guys at best buy almost made it seem like this laptop is multimedia crippled
I dont plan on gaming, but the laptop wont be used JUST for school alone..
That would be boring :p

does anyone have a definitive answer about if autoCAD utilizes your GPU? I always thought it was solely dependent on CPU/RAM

Thats what I thought too, up until today *shrugs*

[underscore]

does anyone have a definitive answer about if autoCAD utilizes your GPU? I always thought it was solely dependent on CPU/RAM

From what I found, it just barely does for 3D autocad (128MB). Any computer you could buy in a store today should be able to run AutoCad 2010

Thanks man, hopefully someone else can chime in
Will the toshiba I posted will be ok playing movies etc? The guys at best buy almost made it seem like this laptop is multimedia crippled
I dont plan on gaming, but the laptop wont be used JUST for school alone..
That would be boring :p

It should be fine, I can run 1080p on this 2 year old thing, I wouldn't be surprised if your 4GB RAM + integrated would be better than my 2GB + dedicated. That's part of what I meant by completely ignoring the guys at the store, they're just trying to trick you into getting a more expensive machine because they're either clueless, or douchebags. I went to FS once looking for the cheapest desktop they had to run a game, I knew anything you could buy would run it just my parents computer was too old. The guy in the store was convinced I needed an $800 tower to run it, and wouldn't even show me what I wanted. I walked into Staples, dropped $300 on a tower and ran the game on near max settings :haha: the best part was both the $800 and $300 towers had the same integrated graphics.


If you really want to test it out, go to BB and if they ask you if you need help say you're just browsing, make your way to the Toshiba and google up System Requirements Lab, install the little app thing and check out any games you might want to play, and maybe toss a little 1080p movie sample from a torrent on a flashdrive to try out. But it should be fine, seeing as Netbooks run 1080p now.

[Jmac]

Here's your problem YOU LISTENED TO THE GUYS AT THE STORE. Never, ever, ever listen to a person who works at the store, especially in the computers department. I'm no computer genius, but I had to take some computer classes in college and am essentially A+ certified (just like the FS jerkoffs, and I didn't learn much beyond what I already knew) and every single time I go in a computer department, I'm correcting the people that work there.

The only reason to go interact at all with the people in the store is when you walk in and tell them "I want one of those." Don't buy anything they suggest, no PSP, no cables no batteries NOTHING, just go in and get what you've already researched and decided on at home.

side note, my processor is a Turion 64 x2, does this mean I can run 64 bit? If so I'll have to add it to the list of shit I never knew before.
Yeah, don't listen to an idiot like me who works at a store ... listen to the guy who doesn't even know if a Turion 64 is a 64-bit CPU ...

[Eclypz]

Which AutoCAD product will you be using? What will you be using it for?
For example, if you're only doing small line drawings, then onboard video should be fine, and you should stop reading here. You'll just have to wait longer for things to render, and it might not look as nice.



If you're doing 3d Rendering, then you'll want a dedicated GPU, which will provide hardware acceleration. And on that note, it also depends how much rendering you're doing. For example, 3d rendering a city block will benefit from a higher end card than rendering 1 house.

The problem lies here for you is this:
- Many of the mainstream laptops with dedicated graphics are for gaming. Gaming cards are optimized for high speed rendering in games, while sacrificing quality. Although some gaming cards will provide acceleration, it won't beat a card designed for the industry, which is designed to render fast, without sacrificing quality.

- If you want a laptop with a dedicated workstation card, be prepared to pay up the ying-yang for it, as its considered specialized equipment meant to be purchased by businesses. And in most cases, is custom equipment built to order.

As an example of the prices for this kind of equipment, check out Nvidia's line of graphics cards made for the industry (They are for desktops, but it gets the point across):
http://www.ncix.com/search/?categoryid=0&q=quadro+fx

- Also consider that a laptop runs on battery...the more performance you get, the shorter the battery life...and if your classroom doesn't have an easily accessible power source, it's something for you to consider.

Here's a link that will help you find a video card that's AutoCad certified (and there are mobile GPUs in the list):
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/hc?siteID=123112&id=6711853&linkID=9240618

And another helpful link:
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/ps/item?siteID=123112&id=2998493&linkID=9240617

[John]

I think everyone who uses AutoCAD is doing so for it's industry standard 2D capacities. In the 3D world, AutoCAD is the craps. Programs like it's sister product "Inventor" are much better, and that is not even very good in relation to it's competitors. For 2D work you will be fine with onboard video. For 3D modeling, the first video limitations arise when you try to "roll" the model. A slow GPU causes the roll to be jerky. This can't happen in 2D.

[underscore]

Yeah, don't listen to an idiot like me who works at a store ... listen to the guy who doesn't even know if a Turion 64 is a 64-bit CPU ...

If you work in a computers department of a big box store, and actually know what you're talking about, then you sir are a rare person indeed. Most of the guys that work in said departments don't even understand system requirements/recommendations for programs/games, they just try to convince you to buying the most expensive thing they can. Case in point, when the guys at BB made it sound like the laptop Coach Hines was looking at getting couldn't run shit. I figured it was 64 bit but since I'm just running the OS that came with my laptop, it never really mattered. If you're so smart why don't you say something useful and help Coach Hines here out, or do you only know that Turion 64 means 64 bit.

[!Yaminashi]

Eclypz: so far my drawings haven't been extremely demanding on my computer.
But further on down the line in my course I have no idea if it will get more complex
Right now all of my drafting work is done at home, so power source is not an issue
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[!SG]

when you start going into 3D rendering with CAD, it starts sucking up a lot of memory.

also, depends on how many layers you have. i personally would look for a laptop that has a seperate video card. i would even look at something in the 512M range.

and if ur doing 3D shading on top of that, say house building plans, and having a 3d scaled model, then yeah, id be looking at a desktop.

[Eclypz]

Eclypz: so far my drawings haven't been extremely demanding on my computer.
But further on down the line in my course I have no idea if it will get more complex
Right now all of my drafting work is done at home, so power source is not an issue
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Then unless you want to spend $500 for something that might not even last a year before you've outgrown it, I would wait until you know what the future holds before purchasing.

PS: Also keep in mind that laptops run at reduced performance when on battery power.

[underscore]

^ they don't have to, I have mine set to run full power all the time. The battery life takes a major hit, but I think screen brightness and wifi take quite a bit of the power.

[underscore]

if everything you do so far can be done at home, and isn't demanding on your current machine then wait, if you get a class that needs a laptop then you can get one at that time, and you'll end up with a more powerful machine for cheaper (as tech prices always drop)

[Eclypz]

^ they don't have to, I have mine set to run full power all the time. The battery life takes a major hit, but I think screen brightness and wifi take quite a bit of the power.

well..that's kind of the point i'm trying to get across....bump the performance to advertised specs and you'll have horrible life that might not last for the duration of the class.

On the other hand, leave the laptop running at reduced performance mode to extend battery life.

In other words, be prepared to make sacrifices when using a laptop for CAD work....and laptop performance specs is only half the story.

[underscore]

true, you also have to be careful when setting it to powersave mode, the default powersave on mine dims the screen and drops the processors to 50% when on battery, but it also ran it at 50% processor power when plugged in. Which is just dumb unless you're trying to speed up the recharge time as you use it.

[ddr]

From what I found, it just barely does for 3D autocad (128MB). Any computer you could buy in a store today should be able to run AutoCad 2010


OP, don't make any decisions if you can't find a definitive answer for this, as this is the main purpose for your machine. The system requirements on autodesk's site are almost pointless just like sys requirements in games. the sys.req.labs plugin is a great way to test games, but not autocad.

I'm still leaning on the fact that it's heavily cpu/ram dependent. buy the fastest laptop you can afford and install (yourself) as much ram as you can afford. use a 64-bit OS since it can utilize the extra ram and will run 64-bit dedicated applications faster (namely, AUTOCAD). everything else shouldn't be important to you as you're on a budget.

my friend's in arch. sci. @ BCIT. He's on his second Macbook Pro, as is half of his class. The other half are mostly rocking Asus's I heard. He uses autocad, revit, illustrator, and photoshop all the time.

sidenote, old generation Satellite's are known to overheat all the time, i'm not sure about the newer ones. google reviews.

how 'bout you email autodesk or ask your instructor/coworkers?

[!Yaminashi]

I actually have another question:

Lets say for example there are 2 laptops. Both have 4GB of ram. However one has integrated video memory of say 512mb, while the other has 128mb.

Under heavy load, wouldnt the laptop with 128mb be better since it only has 128mb that can be taken away from the computer's ram of 4GB, as opposed to a possible 512mb?

I'm just trying to understand how all of this works.

EDIT: Also just browsing BB and FS, under the specifications some of the laptops say no to both integrated AND dedicated video memory, but it will say "x amount of mb" next to video memory.

WTF does that mean? Neither integrated or dedicated so where is it getting the memory from?

[ddr]

u should not go by what the FS/BB websites say, the only thing that is accurate is the model number. google the model number or verify in store.

the scenario you described is correct, but many bios's let you configure exactly how much ram you want to allocate to your graphics card

[!Yaminashi]

Ok well the reason I ask is because I went back to BB today, and told them I wanted something with a dedicated graphics card

The guy pointed me to this one and assured me it had dedicated graphics
However on the bestbuy website it doesnt list it as having a dedicated graphics card
http://www.bestbuy.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0926INGFS10132133&catid=20354

Googling the model doesnt help me much. Next to video ram it says "Up to 1918mb total graphics memory". So am I safe to assume that its integrated?
http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/ca/en/ho/WF06b/321957-321957-3329744-64354-64354-4031721-4041685.html

So the rep says it does have dedicated graphics, the BB site says its integrated, god damnit I dont know what to believe

[ddr]

so from here (http://www.bestbuy.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0926INGFS10132133&catid=20354) it already tells you the radeon 4200 has 128mb, and on hp's site that you found it says up to 1918mb. This is exactly what I was talking about. The memory is not dedicated, meaning it's shared from you system ram and you are free to allocate up to 1918mb from the 4gbs of system ram or whatever it comes in.

don't get too hung up on integrated or not. most ppl when they say integrated they mean the intel crap. GMA4500HD or watever. they're all integrated. my definition would be if it has dedicated ram.

Even then, you should google up some mobile vga charts and see where that 4200 stands.

have you tried pricing out an inspiron on dell's website? they start at way lower prices than the hp you quoted, and might be cheaper after you add on everything i.e. ati 4330. how much better is the 4330 compared to a 4200? not by much (http://www.notebookcheck.net/Mobile-Graphics-Cards-Benchmark-List.844.0.html)

NCIX also has one that is the same price as the hp one you quoted:
Gateway P-7803H-CA Intel C2D P7350 4GB 500GB 17IN WXGA+ GTS 9800 1GB Vista Premium 64BIT Notebook
only 5 though, so you can try your luck at their one day sale.

[Eclypz]

Also, you should know that some of the newer laptops have 2 graphics cards in an attempt to conserve power usage...dedicated graphics generally suck power like crazy, so they offset that by using a non-dedicated for 2D and only switch to the dedicated when hardware acceleration is needed.

I'm too lazy to look up the 2 laptops you found, but that may be the reason for the confusion
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[Jmac]

The HD 4200 is integrated, although it sometimes has dedicated memory (known as Sideport memory). It's still slow ...

The HD 4330 is definitely better, but still an entry-level discreet card ...

http://www.staples.ca/ENG/Catalog/cat_sku.asp?CatIds=&webid=830077&affixedcode=WW

Much better card for a much lower price. HP > Gateway as far as reliability goes, though (not a huge difference, but still).

[underscore]

so from here (http://www.bestbuy.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0926INGFS10132133&catid=20354) it already tells you the radeon 4200 has 128mb, and on hp's site that you found it says up to 1918mb. This is exactly what I was talking about. The memory is not dedicated, meaning it's shared from you system ram and you are free to allocate up to 1918mb from the 4gbs of system ram or whatever it comes in.

don't get too hung up on integrated or not. most ppl when they say integrated they mean the intel crap. GMA4500HD or watever. they're all integrated. my definition would be if it has dedicated ram.

Even then, you should google up some mobile vga charts and see where that 4200 stands.

have you tried pricing out an inspiron on dell's website? they start at way lower prices than the hp you quoted, and might be cheaper after you add on everything i.e. ati 4330. how much better is the 4330 compared to a 4200? not by much (http://www.notebookcheck.net/Mobile-Graphics-Cards-Benchmark-List.844.0.html)

NCIX also has one that is the same price as the hp one you quoted:
Gateway P-7803H-CA Intel C2D P7350 4GB 500GB 17IN WXGA+ GTS 9800 1GB Vista Premium 64BIT Notebook
only 5 though, so you can try your luck at their one day sale.

some of them have a mix though, it has X amount of dedicated video RAM, but it can take system RAM up to XX on top of the dedicated if needed.

[underscore]

I still stick by what I said before though, if you're able to do all your work at home on your current machine then wait until you have a class that requires a laptop. I also found when I bought my laptop, that the best deals weren't during the regular back to school week sale, but the sale immediately afterwards. I was able to get a higher end 6000 series than my friend, for $100 less.

[!Yaminashi]

so from here (http://www.bestbuy.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0926INGFS10132133&catid=20354) it already tells you the radeon 4200 has 128mb, and on hp's site that you found it says up to 1918mb. This is exactly what I was talking about. The memory is not dedicated, meaning it's shared from you system ram and you are free to allocate up to 1918mb from the 4gbs of system ram or whatever it comes in.

don't get too hung up on integrated or not. most ppl when they say integrated they mean the intel crap. GMA4500HD or watever. they're all integrated. my definition would be if it has dedicated ram.

Ok I'm starting to get really confused :(
So the HP I linked, does that mean it has 128mb of dedicated video ram, then I an allocate up to 1918mb from system ram if need be?

[!Yaminashi]

Any thoughts on the LG R580 on futureshop's website?
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