[Sid Vicious]

http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Poverty+kills+anyone+doing+anything+about/2284561/story.html

Gems from it
Is it fair that the average pay of the top 100 Canadian CEOs in Canada was 259 times higher than the average wage of a full time worker?

Why is it so important to keep taxes low for the very rich when it means that the poor die sooner?

Why do our governments create laws and policies that allow this to happen when people are suffering and dying because of it?

[Meowjin]

no.

/thread

[The_AK]

Some of the points he uses are a bit outrageous, "my calculator didn't have enough zeros to calculate how much money that is, so I did it by hand"
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[TekDragon]

The way I see it, if you're poor and live 11 years less, it's 11 less years of being poor. Where's the downside in that?

[taylor192]

I agree with MH: no.

Is it fair that the average pay of the top 100 Canadian CEOs in Canada was 259 times higher than the average wage of a full time worker?
No. Life's not fair.

The imbalance is even worse if you factor in Government employees. The typically upper management Government employee earns far more than the public (many studies have shown this, look them up), and robs it directly from the government funds this article wants directed to the poor.

This is why taxes should be low and government small. Government is a very inefficient way of getting things done.

Why is it so important to keep taxes low for the very rich when it means that the poor die sooner?
Our country was founded and continues to grow by rich immigrants bringing their money here to invest. Now picture what happens when the opposite happens.

The better question to ask is: Why do we Canadians buy cheap junk from other countries with social/environment atrocities are far worse than here? If we're so worried about the poor, why do we turn a blind eye to these atrocities in the name of having a cheaper flat screen TV?

There's worse things in this world than the DTES.

Why do our governments create laws and policies that allow this to happen when people are suffering and dying because of it?
Morales work both ways: Is it right to give money to people who continually show they are lazy and unable of being a productive or responsible part of society?

Most will say its not right to support lazy people.
Most will say its not right to see someone suffer.

So which direction does your morale compass take you?

[Gumby]

^
Well said, taylor192.

[Sid Vicious]

I agree with MH: no.


No. Life's not fair.

The imbalance is even worse if you factor in Government employees. The typically upper management Government employee earns far more than the public (many studies have shown this, look them up), and robs it directly from the government funds this article wants directed to the poor.

This is why taxes should be low and government small. Government is a very inefficient way of getting things done.


Our country was founded and continues to grow by rich immigrants bringing their money here to invest. Now picture what happens when the opposite happens.

The better question to ask is: Why do we Canadians buy cheap junk from other countries with social/environment atrocities are far worse than here? If we're so worried about the poor, why do we turn a blind eye to these atrocities in the name of having a cheaper flat screen TV?

There's worse things in this world than the DTES.


Morales work both ways: Is it right to give money to people who continually show they are lazy and unable of being a productive or responsible part of society?

Most will say its not right to support lazy people.
Most will say its not right to see someone suffer.

So which direction does your morale compass take you?

Those are the points I took from the article.
Not mine......
I was outraged by the bleeding heart socialism displayed in the article, and was outraged by the implication that someone who built an empire with hardwork and dedication should donate his money to people who don't want to work

[taylor192]

I hate these articles.

If you're poor where you're at, MOVE.
Our country was founded on people moving here for better opportunities.
Our country grew west as people explored for better opportunities.
Our country grows with immigrants moving here for better opportunities.

If you cannot make it in the DTES, move to a small fishing village in Nova Scotia. You can buy a house there for $50K. Hell, I could retire there right now and live off my savings for decades... yet by Vancouver standards I am not even remotely wealthy.

[carisear]

you see, i don't read those articles because it just makes me rage.

what she wants, is for her not to work or do anything, and get everything that someone whom has worked hard all their lives has. your standard left wing view.

[Sid Vicious]

you see, i don't read those articles because it just makes me rage.

what she wants, is for her not to work or do anything, and get everything that someone whom has worked hard all their lives has. your standard left wing view.

but isn't this type of bleeding heart liberalism that has infected our provincial and municipal government?

[oinkoinkpig]

it's a dog eat dog world

[taylor192]

I was outraged by the bleeding heart socialism displayed in the article, and was outraged by the implication that someone who built an empire with hardwork and dedication should donate his money to people who don't want to work
I'm outraged too, as you can see :D yet now I'll play the other side, cause there has to be a balance.

Warren Buffet identified what is wrong with the system: his tax percentage is lower than his secretary's.

Government has become so bloated, especially tax law, that the rich get rich and the poor get poorer. The rich can afford to find ways to "legally" beat paying their fair share of tax.

This, IMHO, does need to be changed: Flat tax everyone.
Imagine how much money the government would have if it didn't have to spend so much managing the taxes it collects! The government could spend this extra money on actually helping the poor - instead of the government sponsored adult daycare that is a government unionized career.

So next time someone complains about the rich and the poor, tell them the problem is the government sponsored adult daycare for the bloated middle class. This middle class is so big, that even a small cut would produce huge dividends to assist the poor.

[taylor192]

what she wants, is for her not to work or do anything, and get everything that someone whom has worked hard all their lives has. your standard left wing view.
She watched the Disney version of the The Ant and The Grasshopper growing up.

This is the biggest morale dilemma ever perpetrated on our society. Why? Cause in the original story the Grasshopper dies.

[PiuYi]

wow whys she complaining about $610 in FREE MONEY
if somebody got that and just put their lazy asses to work at mcdonalds full-time earning minimum wage they'd be feeding/clothing themselves just fine

and WHY should the guy with 30million build 150 housing units?? its his money, not yours, he can spend it on cow manure if he likes

fucking bullshit article pisses me off

[El Bastardo]

Can someone throw down that story about the rich guy, the middle class guy, and the poor guy drinking beer? It explains the reason for taxing the rich at such a low percentage.

[Blinky]

Naw. Why get angry? Everyone has their opinion, sometimes misguided.

I agree, it isn't "fair" that the Thompsons are so wealthy, but good luck with the proposed "wealth redistribution" alluded to in the article.

On the other hand, some points are valid IMO - CEO compensation is ridiculous, for instance.

[goo3]

If you can't make it here, you can't make it anywhere.

[wuuhoo]

She watched the Disney version of the The Ant and The Grasshopper growing up.

This is the biggest morale dilemma ever perpetrated on our society. Why? Cause in the original story the Grasshopper dies.

wow i can learn more from you then my economic class :thumbsup:

[dinamix]

If you can't make it here, you can't make it anywhere.

so true man..
so many doors are opened for us to be successful and well-off in canada.

go to school, get your BA and get a 25+hour job. simple as that.

if your too retarded too get shit done . go get support from the government.

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

Can someone throw down that story about the rich guy, the middle class guy, and the poor guy drinking beer? It explains the reason for taxing the rich at such a low percentage.

yeah what was that one again?

[LiquidTurbo]

yeah what was that one again?

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing. The fifth would pay $1. The sixth would pay $3. The seventh would pay $7. The eighth would pay $12. The ninth would pay $18. The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that’s what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. ’Since you are all such good customers, he said, ‘I’m going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20.

Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men – the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his ‘fair share?’ They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody’s share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man’s bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings). The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% savings). The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28% savings). The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings). The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings). The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

‘I only got a dollar out of the $20,’declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man,’ but he got $10!’

‘Yeah, that’s right,’ exclaimed the fifth man. ‘I only saved a dollar, too. It’s unfair that he got ten times more than I!’

‘That’s true!!’ shouted the seventh man. ‘Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!’

‘Wait a minute,’ yelled the first four men in unison. ‘We didn’t get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!’

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night the tenth man didn’t show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn’t have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore.

[LiquidTurbo]

http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Poverty+kills+anyone+doing+anything+about/2284561/story.html

Gems from it
Is it fair that the average pay of the top 100 Canadian CEOs in Canada was 259 times higher than the average wage of a full time worker?

Why is it so important to keep taxes low for the very rich when it means that the poor die sooner?

Why do our governments create laws and policies that allow this to happen when people are suffering and dying because of it?

Buddy, please. Could this be any more mental masturbation? If you are going to whine about the system, at least have a game plan.

So what's the game plan? I really hate these threads that basically deny the reality of life.

-Is it fair you have more money than over 2-3 billion people in this world? (A good chunk that live for under a $1USD a day?
-Why is it so important that you have hot running water to wash your ass with, when there are MILLIONS in this world who don't have access to clean FRESH water?
-Why do you cause unnecessary suffering by purchasing a pair of Nike shoes made in a factory where the work who put it together makes $2/hr? Do you complain about that?


I really fail to see how anyone could POSSIBLY complain about the world we live in, especially we are fortunate enough to be living in First World country.

Hell, our lives are so good we COMPLAIN about the rich having more money than us. That's our biggest problem?

Other people have to walk 30 fucking miles to a watering hole just to get fresh water to LIVE. I was in Nepal earlier and I met a guy who was a farmer, and we chatted a bit. I said "Great! What crops do sell?". He replied.

"Oh. I grow food just to feed my family. I don't have very much land. It's just enough food so we can live."

Completely humbling and mentally brought me to my knees. This is why I hate posts on the internet about this very topic. Whining and bitching about essentially nothing. Really, if you were at the very top of the pyramid, I highly doubt you'd complain. In a way you ARE already at the top of the WORLD pyramid, by the fact you own a computer connected to the internet, and water magically comes out of a tap warm and sanitized, ready to wash your ass with!

Instead of being greedy like the CEOs you so despise and "RAGE" on, how about helping the people below us in this pyramid of life, rather than whining about how you can't reach the top?

[taylor192]

and WHY should the guy with 30million build 150 housing units?? its his money, not yours, he can spend it on cow manure if he likes
He could build another house... in another country.

CFox had a retired Vancouver city worker on air, he has taken his good pension and moved to a nice island paradise. Cheaper living costs, better weather, friendlier people, ... its a wonder more people with money don't do the same.

[shenmecar]

To be truthfully honest, what is there to complain about? I don't blame CEOs in Canada for making massive numbers. They do so because they have made smart decisions in the past. If that same writer were to become the next CEO of The Thomson Corp, do you think she will give out $20 billion of her hard earned money to house the homeless? That $20 billion can be invested in something else to bring in $30 billion next year.....and $40 billion the next.......

We are greedy and we are envious, that is humanity.

[bengy]

A CEO can decide to cut everyone's pay by 10%, saving a company X% of money on payroll, thus getting himself a nice bonus. Or you know, decide that for this year, no merrit raises for anyone... yes smart decisions...

[taylor192]

A CEO can decide to cut everyone's pay by 10%, saving a company X% of money on payroll, thus getting himself a nice bonus. Or you know, decide that for this year, no merrit raises for anyone... yes smart decisions...
or if he doesn't, the stock tanks, investors flee, stock loses capital, and more people eventually lose their job.

Why is the CEO so aware of stock prices? Think of some of the largest investors in Canada - pension funds. These funds require 8% growth to pay for themselves, yet our economy doesn't grow 8%. So these investors start to look elsewhere for investments if the CEO doesn't stay competitive.

Who pushes those pension returns? The same working class people getting a 10% pay cut from their employer.

Its a vicious circle.

I do agree the financial rewards have gone looney-tunes lately, upper management making millions for poor decisions. The advantage of private CEOs is that eventually bad ones are punted, unlike the heads of Translink, BC Rail, BC ferries that cannot be punted and collect looney-tunes bonuses.

[hotjoint]

:lol your title says "rage" not "wage" i came in here thinking about road ragers

[sonick]

Buddy, please. Could this be any more mental masturbation? If you are going to whine about the system, at least have a game plan.

Read his post again. The bold portions are quoted from the article.

[CRS]

:lol your title says "rage" not "wage" i came in here thinking about road ragers

Hmm, I think the OP meant to say "did anyone read the article and then raged (or got mad)?"

Not about wage.

Rage is an emotion and verb! Or atleast it is on the internet...

[Sid Vicious]

Buddy, please. Could this be any more mental masturbation? If you are going to whine about the system, at least have a game plan.

So what's the game plan? I really hate these threads that basically deny the reality of life.

-Is it fair you have more money than over 2-3 billion people in this world? (A good chunk that live for under a $1USD a day?
-Why is it so important that you have hot running water to wash your ass with, when there are MILLIONS in this world who don't have access to clean FRESH water?
-Why do you cause unnecessary suffering by purchasing a pair of Nike shoes made in a factory where the work who put it together makes $2/hr? Do you complain about that?


I really fail to see how anyone could POSSIBLY complain about the world we live in, especially we are fortunate enough to be living in First World country.

Hell, our lives are so good we COMPLAIN about the rich having more money than us. That's our biggest problem?

Other people have to walk 30 fucking miles to a watering hole just to get fresh water to LIVE. I was in Nepal earlier and I met a guy who was a farmer, and we chatted a bit. I said "Great! What crops do sell?". He replied.

"Oh. I grow food just to feed my family. I don't have very much land. It's just enough food so we can live."

Completely humbling and mentally brought me to my knees. This is why I hate posts on the internet about this very topic. Whining and bitching about essentially nothing. Really, if you were at the very top of the pyramid, I highly doubt you'd complain. In a way you ARE already at the top of the WORLD pyramid, by the fact you own a computer connected to the internet, and water magically comes out of a tap warm and sanitized, ready to wash your ass with!

Instead of being greedy like the CEOs you so despise and "RAGE" on, how about helping the people below us in this pyramid of life, rather than whining about how you can't reach the top?

Reading comprehension fail hahahahah...the bolded quotes are from the article retard.
Where was I defending the author's opinion? Wow you are dense

[taylor192]

Reading comprehension fail hahahahah...the bolded quotes are from the article retard.
Where was I defending the author's opinion? Wow you are dense

Dude, a number of people who have misinterpreted your original post. That is a sign that you did a poor job of effectively getting your point across, especially considering some of the intelligent posts here, its weird that we all misread your words.

[LiquidTurbo]

Reading comprehension fail hahahahah...the bolded quotes are from the article retard.
Where was I defending the author's opinion? Wow you are dense

What'd you mean by 'rage'?

[Sid Vicious]

Dude, a number of people who have misinterpreted your original post. That is a sign that you did a poor job of effectively getting your point across, especially considering some of the intelligent posts here, its weird that we all misread your words.

i think its because most people did not read the article, and skimmed my post. i should've put CLIFFS from the articles, or something even simpler

What'd you mean by 'rage'?
fury: a feeling of intense anger;

[achiam]

The author of the article clearly has good intentions. But her ideals exist in a simple world where everything works. The issues in existence that control how society is shaped are so enormous and complex that it can't be simply solved by stealing from the very rich and giving it to the poor. The poor underclass would slowly form again from whatever avenues, and the system would quickly find itself lopsided again.

The poor and the rich have always existed, even a hundred years ago.

To be fair, and I believe other well traveled members here would agree with me, the poor in Canada and the West in general are incredibly rich when compared with the poverty seen in rural China, the slums of India, or indeed the Congo in Africa.

[bengy]

The author of the article clearly has good intentions. But her ideals exist in a simple world where everything works. The issues in existence that control how society is shaped are so enormous and complex that it can't be simply solved by stealing from the very rich and giving it to the poor. The poor underclass would slowly form again from whatever avenues, and the system would quickly find itself lopsided again.

The poor and the rich have always existed, even a hundred years ago.

To be fair, and I believe other well traveled members here would agree with me, the poor in Canada and the West in general are incredibly rich when compared with the poverty seen in rural China, the slums of India, or indeed the Congo in Africa.

How does that make anyone feel any better? I'm poor in Canada but I'm better off than some guy in India. We don't live in India. That's comparing apples to oranges.

[you!]

everyone just wants to be on top
crab mentality applies to all

[taylor192]

How does that make anyone feel any better? I'm poor in Canada but I'm better off than some guy in India. We don't live in India. That's comparing apples to oranges.
In reference to my previous post: MOVE

If you choose not to move, you choose to be poor, and that's not mine, tax-payers', or society's problem - its your problem.

[bengy]

In reference to my previous post: MOVE

If you choose not to move, you choose to be poor, and that's not mine, tax-payers', or society's problem - its your problem.

Yes, I'm gonna move to the Indian slums, cuz apparently I'm rich there! :haha:

[nack]

stop being a commie.

[achiam]

How does that make anyone feel any better? I'm poor in Canada but I'm better off than some guy in India. We don't live in India. That's comparing apples to oranges.

I wasn't trying to make anyone feel better. My point was to emphasize that the world has never been, nor ever will, be a fair place. In fact, the same applies in nature - smarter, stronger animals kill weaker animals for food. This may be a harsh example, but it is the basic tenet of Darwinism and evolution - survival of the fittest.

[antonito]

In reference to my previous post: MOVE

If you choose not to move, you choose to be poor, and that's not mine, tax-payers', or society's problem - its your problem.

:haha:

I'm curious, have you given this any thought whatsoever?

If someone has no money, and they move to Nova Scotia, they still can't buy a house, and they still won't have a job. They'll just be living off of government assistance in Nova Scotia...which is lower because of a lower cost of living.

Don't even get me started on the whole India thing.

[too_slow]

Your arguement is constructed very well. :thumbsup:

There's just too much hyprocrisy in today's society.

I agree with MH: no.


No. Life's not fair.

The imbalance is even worse if you factor in Government employees. The typically upper management Government employee earns far more than the public (many studies have shown this, look them up), and robs it directly from the government funds this article wants directed to the poor.

This is why taxes should be low and government small. Government is a very inefficient way of getting things done.


Our country was founded and continues to grow by rich immigrants bringing their money here to invest. Now picture what happens when the opposite happens.

The better question to ask is: Why do we Canadians buy cheap junk from other countries with social/environment atrocities are far worse than here? If we're so worried about the poor, why do we turn a blind eye to these atrocities in the name of having a cheaper flat screen TV?

There's worse things in this world than the DTES.


Morales work both ways: Is it right to give money to people who continually show they are lazy and unable of being a productive or responsible part of society?

Most will say its not right to support lazy people.
Most will say its not right to see someone suffer.

So which direction does your morale compass take you?

[Onassis]

you see, i don't read those articles because it just makes me rage.

what she wants, is for her not to work or do anything, and get everything that someone whom has worked hard all their lives has. your standard left wing view.

All she has to do is get married then :p

[taylor192]

:haha:

I'm curious, have you given this any thought whatsoever?

If someone has no money, and they move to Nova Scotia, they still can't buy a house, and they still won't have a job. They'll just be living off of government assistance in Nova Scotia...which is lower because of a lower cost of living.

Don't even get me started on the whole India thing.
I'm curious, have you given this any thought whatsoever?

Nova Scotia was my example, cause I could buy a house and live well off my savings. For others I expect them to move where is best for them if Vancouver is too expensive.