[Meowjin]

I'll try the best of my ability to explain this

about 3 years ago I was hired by a smallt ime hockey league in vancouver to shoot photos. I was to do ~every 2 to 3 weeks, and I was paid a small amount of 1000 dollars.

While I didn't show up every 2 to 3 weeks I did do a considerable amount of work, and took ~1k usuable photos (so essentially 1 dollar a photo).

The guy who hired me claims I wasn't doing enough work, I claim I did enough. He wants 500 dollars back. I say that's not fair because i still did alot of work, and all the work I did (at home resizing and uploading the photos) surpasses 1000 dollars as that is the day rate for most photographers. Anyways we kinda drop it as i stop picking up calls.

fast forward 3 years later. He shows up at my house today. He invites himself in. We start talking/yelling. I show him on my computer the photos i still have and it showed that I showed up on 7 different dates. It's still not enough for him. So now, I want this guy at my house. So I threw him out physically.

He keeps telling me that taking me to small claims court would ruin my life and give me a record (lol). I gave him my number after I kicked him out and told him to meet in a place that isn't my house and somewhere public. He also knows where I work.

So My options are right now

1) pay him 500 dollars

2) try to mediate him 250 dollars and call it even

3) don't pay him shit

4) ask him for a judge to mediate it

5) restraining order.

options?

[Ducdesmo]

You didn't live up to your contract, so pay the man. If u only showed up half the time, pay the dude $500.

Otherwise take it to the courts....in which the judge will most likely rule in favor of the plaintiff.

[wnderinguy]

After 3 years does the guy even still represent the Hockey league in question?How were these photos to be used,even if you were paid ,the copyright is still yours .If they have been used in any commercial advertising threaten to counter sue for copyright infringement.

[Meowjin]

according to him there was no contract. And yes he still represents it.

[Senna4ever]

If he hired you to do a job, and you didn't live up to your end of the contract, then he should not have paid you the full amount. I don't get why he paid you in full up front? Was there a written contract, or was it a verbal gentleman's agreement? A written contract will hold up in court if both of your signatures are on the piece of paper/s, a verbal agreement will not. Why did he wait 3 years?? On the other hand, you were a bit immature to ignore his calls though - doing so can ruin your credibility, as it tells potential future clients you're not reliable. I would suggest you guys talk this over man to man, be as respectful as you can - don't lose your cool and see if you can come to an agreement. This thing is totally not worth going to small claims court, and in my opinion, he was just showing some bravado.

...and try not to burn any bridges in this industry, as it's quite small, and everyone knows everyone. :)

[Senna4ever]

After 3 years does the guy even still represent the Hockey league in question?How were these photos to be used,even if you were paid ,the copyright is still yours .If they have been used in any commercial advertising threaten to counter sue for copyright infringement.
NO! In Canada, the person/organization that hires the photographer automatically has legal copyright of the images unless it is written in the contract that the photographer retains copyright. Get your facts right.

[wnderinguy]

NO! In Canada, the person/organization that hires the photographer automatically has legal copyright of the images unless it is written in the contract that the photographer retains copyright. Get your facts right.

Could you link to that.

[Meowjin]

If he hired you to do a job, and you didn't live up to your end of the contract, then he should not have paid you the full amount. I don't get why he paid you in full up front? Was there a written contract, or was it a verbal gentleman's agreement? A written contract will hold up in court if both of your signatures are on the piece of paper/s, a verbal agreement will not. Why did he wait 3 years?? On the other hand, you were a bit immature to ignore his calls though - doing so can ruin your credibility, as it tells potential future clients you're not reliable. I would suggest you guys talk this over man to man, be as respectful as you can - don't lose your cool and see if you can come to an agreement. This thing is totally not worth going to small claims court, and in my opinion, he was just showing some bravado.

...and try not to burn any bridges in this industry, as it's quite small, and everyone knows everyone. :)

To him it was a verbal agreement. But I remember signing a contract, but I dont have it anymore.

[RCubed]

Could you link to that.

http://www.capic.org/copyright.html
scroll down to "EXCEPTION"

In commissioned (assigned) photographic works, if the creator does not have an agreement to the contrary with the commissioner of the work, the commissioner of the work shall own the copyright in the work, once the work has been paid for.
See laws.justice.gc.ca - rid-38969 Ownership of Copyright, Section 13(2).

[Senna4ever]

Could you link to that.
Google it yourself. It's a part of federal copyright law. Any professional photographer will know this.

[Meowjin]

I'm trying to be as civil as possible. I told him to take me to small claims court. If he's in the right and the judge sees that, Then I have no choice to pay the 500 dollars.

[Senna4ever]

Andreas, remember: if you lose, you're out $500 PLUS court costs, which can be at least twice that $500 you may end up owing to the plaintiff.

[Meowjin]

yes, But I don't think I'm in the wrong jason. Can you imagine selling your photos for 1 dollar each? Infact if you want to do it an hourly scale

I showed up 7 times for ~3 hours each. During that 3 hours I fill up a 4 gig photo card with ~300 photos.

Then I go home have to mass resize them and mass upload them and tag the team in the proper photos.

So lets say for those 7 times its about 5 hours of work.

7 x 5 = 35.

I'm getting paid 28 dollars an hour to photograph. The day rate for most event photographers is a 1000 dollars minimum a day. I'm trying to explain to him that it's a good deal. And why did he wait 3 years to settle with this?

Personally Just to defuse it I'll offer him 250. If he refuses, then I'll file a restraining order and suggests he meets me at small claims.

[Senna4ever]

I agree with your sentiment, but I'm just saying that you need to consider the options. It's up to you to convince the court that what you think is right. If the judge agrees, then great, if not - then you're going to owe more than the originally disputed $500. Of course, the other guy is in the same boat - he loses, he's out $500+. IMHO, without a written contract this case wont even be heard by the court, but I'm no lawyer, so don't take my word as gospel.

I think that photographer has come into some money problems if he's coming after you for this 3 years later.

[baldy]

tell him to go fuck himself. its been three years and its your word against his. if he paid you in full, it signifies his acceptance of your work, thus you have fulfilled contract.

and next time, be a better advocate for yourself. if you don't like the terms of the contract, don't accept them. and if you do, show up and do the work. Personally if I were him I would have fired your ass the first time you didn't show up and gone after you for the cash right then, you should consider yourself lucky he's not that on the ball.

ps - remind me never to contract anything to you.

[Meowjin]

good. I have the exif data to back me up for ~ 2 months of work. So I'm not worried.

I guarantee he wants me to come back and take free photos. Fuck this. I'm in the right. I did more than enough work. If were going off the verbal agreement bullshit there was clearly a miscommunication from my behalf.

[J____]

i think to save hassle just pay the guy back. In the end you didnt live up to your contract and i think the judge will rule in that favor if you decide to take it to court. You cant go through with an agreed contract then decide half way through that you did more than enough work in half the time and not show up for the other half. It's your own issue for underestimating/doing more work, not his. You cant agree to shoot an 8 hour weddng for $5000 with 400 delivered photos then at the 4 hour mark you find you have 400 photos already and leave and expect to get the full $5000... it's your problem that you over shot and did all the extra work. Part of a successful business is also client managment and time management in general. $500 is nothing to you in terms of keeping your reputation and saving you the hassle. See it as tuition for buying this lesson.

[Meowjin]

I'm strapped for cash right now :(

[J____]

then make an agreement to pay him back at a later date or in installments. i honestly dont believe you dont have $500 layin around.

[Meowjin]

I'll pay him 250. An apology and thats it. If he doesn't accept he can go to small claims.

[Meowjin]

and it's been 3 years since this work has occured, thats why I was suprised when he came to my door today.

[CP.AR]

according to him there was no contract. And yes he still represents it.

He just pretty much shot himself in the foot. Refuse to pay, and cite him on the "no contract"

[tiger_handheld]

according to him there was no contract. And yes he still represents it.


tell him to sue you.

if there was no contract, you can claim that u only needed to show up for 7 times. which u did.

[Kaiten]

dude spent too much over the holidays. 3 years later it seems he just wants some extra cash.

[Meowjin]

So I've decided to do 2 things.

1) I'm sick of him harrassing me especially 3 years after the fact. I've decided to write him an email that the next time he contacts me it better be in regards to small claims court. Any further contact without a court date will result in a restraining order and that violating the restraining order is a CRIMINAL offense.

2) Since there was no contract, I'll invoice him for the photo's on his website/day rate and claim that the 1k was a deposit and I stopped working when I no longer recieved payments. And that if no payment is recieved I will be opening a claim.

Douchish yes, but I want this problem to go away.

Ps. I was young at the time, so I didn't know what I was doing. Luckily I have much better business sense now.

[ddr]

maybe you should edit out part two of your decision... since it sounds like a different version of the truth

[lowside67]

So I've decided to do 2 things.

1) I'm sick of him harrassing me especially 3 years after the fact. I've decided to write him an email that the next time he contacts me it better be in regards to small claims court. Any further contact without a court date will result in a restraining order and that violating the restraining order is a CRIMINAL offense.

2) Since there was no contract, I'll invoice him for the photo's on his website/day rate and claim that the 1k was a deposit and I stopped working when I no longer recieved payments. And that if no payment is recieved I will be opening a claim.

Douchish yes, but I want this problem to go away.

Ps. I was young at the time, so I didn't know what I was doing. Luckily I have much better business sense now.
You can live with yourself at night lying in court? You truly are the epic douche that everybody makes you out to be.

[J____]

So I've decided to do 2 things.

1) I'm sick of him harrassing me especially 3 years after the fact. I've decided to write him an email that the next time he contacts me it better be in regards to small claims court. Any further contact without a court date will result in a restraining order and that violating the restraining order is a CRIMINAL offense.

2) Since there was no contract, I'll invoice him for the photo's on his website/day rate and claim that the 1k was a deposit and I stopped working when I no longer recieved payments. And that if no payment is recieved I will be opening a claim.

Douchish yes, but I want this problem to go away.

Ps. I was young at the time, so I didn't know what I was doing. Luckily I have much better business sense now.


:blueguy:

again... is this all worth $500? i thought u were loaded, even have a new TL.

[77civic1200]

I was to do ~every 2 to 3 weeks, and I was paid a small amount of 1000 dollars.

While I didn't show up every 2 to 3 weeks


That right there about sums it up. You didn't live up to your end of the agreement. You can't change your mind half way through and just expect it to go away by not answering the phone.

[Senna4ever]

So I've decided to do 2 things.

1) I'm sick of him harrassing me especially 3 years after the fact. I've decided to write him an email that the next time he contacts me it better be in regards to small claims court. Any further contact without a court date will result in a restraining order and that violating the restraining order is a CRIMINAL offense.

2) Since there was no contract, I'll invoice him for the photo's on his website/day rate and claim that the 1k was a deposit and I stopped working when I no longer recieved payments. And that if no payment is recieved I will be opening a claim.

Douchish yes, but I want this problem to go away.

Ps. I was young at the time, so I didn't know what I was doing. Luckily I have much better business sense now.

Dude.........

[Meowjin]

part 2 was a joke. but do yo u see where im getting at? Next time WE BOTH KNOW to sign a contract.

[OriginalJC]

You made this thread, so obviously you're open to criticism.

Sack up, pay the man, move on with your life. You made a deal, took the 'small' amount of money, and didn't live up to your end of the deal. Karma is a bitch...

[Meowjin]

ok, but why should i pay him back half? What If I feel like i did 100% of the work but he thinks I didn't? I already told him that if he doesn't think he wasn't properly compensated he can take me to small claims.

I'm still going to offer him 250. But 500? That's saying I did half the work.

[Mananetwork]

I agree with what J said.

Btw, batch resizing/tagging/uploading isn't work - the computer does all that

[baldy]

maybe we could have a photo meet which involves the two of you in a not-so-celebrity-death-match!

:worthless:

[Amaru]

yes, But I don't think I'm in the wrong jason. Can you imagine selling your photos for 1 dollar each? Infact if you want to do it an hourly scale

I showed up 7 times for ~3 hours each. During that 3 hours I fill up a 4 gig photo card with ~300 photos.

Then I go home have to mass resize them and mass upload them and tag the team in the proper photos.

So lets say for those 7 times its about 5 hours of work.

7 x 5 = 35.

I'm getting paid 28 dollars an hour to photograph. The day rate for most event photographers is a 1000 dollars minimum a day. I'm trying to explain to him that it's a good deal. And why did he wait 3 years to settle with this?

Personally Just to defuse it I'll offer him 250. If he refuses, then I'll file a restraining order and suggests he meets me at small claims.

Earlier in the thread, you said that you remembered signing a contract. Is there any possibility that he still has this contract?

If the contract stated that you were expected to show up at the hockey rink at least twice a month (or something similar) - and you didn't - then you are in the wrong, and a judge would almost certainly award him $500 or more.

The point is, at least in my assessment, that even though you may have produced 1000 good pictures, you failed to live up to the contract expectations which required you to regularly attend.

To illustrate with a metaphor, imagine that I'm a carpenter and I sign a contract agreeing to build someone a two-story, 2000 sq/ft house. If I build a 5000 sq/ft single-level mansion instead, I haven't fulfilled my contractual obligations, and thus I wouldn't be paid. Building the mansion would require more work than the 2000 sq/ft house, but the contract specified I was to build a two-story house, so I can't demand a paycheque simply because I put in more work.

Anyway, I don't even know what the truth is anymore, because in a later post you claim there was no contract. If he doesn't possess a paper contract, then you'll definitely win a court battle, because a verbal agreement won't be sufficient given the amount of time that has passed since the agreement was made.

[Meowjin]

I'm basing the "no contract" on the fact that he said there was no contract.

I do remember signing a contract. He probably lost it.

[ecchiecchi]

lol - I'd thread carefully if I were you. If he was a royal ass, he could say he doesn't have the contract, take you to small claims court, let you lie, then show you the contract that you signed that he said he didn't have.

[Slo40]

I love how you post all the details of how you plan on further ripping this guy off on a public forum that he can easily access, print off, and hand over to the judge - case closed...

Instead, since you say you are strapped for cash right now and you think he wants you to take more photos for free, just do it and you won't be out of pocket anywhere near $500. Contract or not, you admittedly didn't live up to your end of the deal, where he obviously did since he paid you in full 3 years ago.

[Meowjin]

I just found out he has no case after 24 months of the dispute, according to my lawyer.

/thread.