[Harvey Specter]

By Steve Gorman Steve Gorman – Wed Feb 10, 8:32 pm ET
LOS ANGELES (Reuters) – Added to a wave of personal injury lawsuits stemming from Toyota's massive recall, the automaker faces a growing number of consumer class-action cases -- more than 40 so far -- over the shrinking resale value of its cars.

Consumer lawsuits seeking economic damages for diminished value or lost use of a recalled Toyota vehicle have been filed in at least 30 states, mostly in federal court, and could end up costing the car maker over $2 billion, Tim Howard, lead counsel for a team of law firms handling about half the cases, estimated.

All the federal suits would be consolidated into a single class action in the next three to four months, following a hearing before a panel of judges set for March 25 in U.S. District Court in San Diego, Howard said.

Toyota Motor Corp's U.S. operations are based in California. A company spokesman declined to comment.

Litigation against the cash-rich Japanese automaker has mounted quickly in the weeks since it began the biggest recall in its history for repairs to ill-fitting floor mats and sticking gas pedals it blames for instances of unintended, sudden acceleration in its vehicles.

This week a separate recall was announced for braking flaws reported in Toyota's top-selling hybrid car, the Prius, and U.S. regulators say they are reviewing dozens of complaints of potential steering problems in new Toyota Corollas.

Toyota has recalled some 8.5 million vehicles.

Lawsuits related to injuries and death are the most obvious cases being brought against Toyota. Up to 19 U.S. crash deaths over the past decade may be linked to accelerator-related issues at Toyota, congressional officials have said. An unknown number of injuries also are likely to spur legal action.

A class-action suit was filed in Los Angeles on Monday on behalf of U.S. shareholders accusing Toyota of misleading investors.

Howard, a Northeastern University law professor, said the consumer class actions are based on the premise that for Toyota car buyers "if you went to sell your car today, it's worth a lot less than it was two weeks ago."

Major automobile valuation services like Edmonds and Kelley Blue Book have downgraded the resale value of Toyotas by as much as 3.5 percent, and further decreases up to 6 percent can be expected, Howard said.

Toyota has long boasted one of the industry's highest resale values for its vehicles, as well as a superb record of reliability and safety -- all major factors in the company's success in the U.S. market .

Class-action lawsuits are predominantly a U.S. phenomenon, involving a large group of plaintiffs who bring similar claims to court collectively.

Toyota is not the first car company to face such legal actions. In 2008, Ford Motor Co agreed to payouts of up to $500 per plaintiff, in the form of discount vouchers, to settle a diminished-value case on behalf of 800,000 customers after a tire recall prompted concerns about potential rollover crashes in its Explorer sport utility vehicle.

(Reporting by Steve Gorman, Editing by Dan Whitcomb, Leslie Gevirtz)

[impactX]

Hara-kiri time.

[maxx]

Jah, do you have the link to the article?
thanks

[jlenko]

LOL!

People should be used to this... all the domestics they USED to buy, depreciated like crazy as soon as you drove them off the lot. Forgotten already? Stupid sue-happy Yankees!

[slammer111]

Sucks for the owners for sure, but please tell me the customers aren't winning these lawsuits. Nobody buys a run-of-the-mill Toyota as an investment.

[ericthehalfbee]

Lame lawsuit.

The ones that are going to get Toyota are the wrongful death lawsuits and insurance companies going after them.

I like how the Toyota press release for the recall said there were no reported injuries or deaths when the government says there have been at least 19 deaths.


There was a fatal crash almost 1.5 years ago involving a Toyota that's part of the pedal recall. ICBC investigators thought there was a throttle related failure that caused the accident, but Toyota denied it. ICBC decided that instead of scrapping the car to seal it and put it into storage. Guess what they're doing now? Going over the car to see if the pedal is the problem, and if it is then they will go after Toyota for damages they paid out for the death involved.

ICBC now has 2 full time investigators going over all Toyota crashes that fit the profile of a stuck throttle. Now why do you think ICBC cares about accidents where they already paid out money? Simple, they want that money back and who do you think they're going to expect to pay that money?


This is going to be a financial disaster for Toyota. Insurance companies all across North America are doing the same thing. And how many people who had an accident and thought it was driver error (so they never put on the claim saying the vehicle throttle stuck) simply got their car fixed thinking they caused it? How many of those people are now looking back at their previous accident? How many people who own Toyotas simply accept them as being 100% reliable and when they crashed assumed it was driver error due to Toyotas excellent reputation? If they were driving a Ford they'd file a report with NHTSA based on reputation alone. What if this happened in an Audi?


Speaking of Ford and Audi, here are some interesting numbers:

- The famous Ford Pinto, which had a gas tank that could explode if you were rear-ended, had a total of 27 fatalities related to the problem.
- The Audi 5000 unintended acceleration problem that almost ended Audi in North America, only had 7 reported deaths.

Look at what these two incidents did for the reputation of Ford and Audi. Now NHTSA is saying 19 deaths from the Toyota issue, and the investigations haven't even finished. How many more will appear?

I think this shows the league Toyota is now in and how serious this will affect their business. This could be the most damaging recall ever to hit a car company.

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

toyota is seriously going down this time...

[Marco911]

I'm going to speculate that 95% of the accidents are the result of idiot toyota owners who confuse a gas pedal with a brake pedal...just like in the Audi 5000.

This issue is being blown way out of proportion by the media. Give it 6 mts, and it will be a distant memory and have little to no effect on Toyota's sales.

[jlenko]

How many people who own Toyotas simply accept them as being 100% reliable

Well, that's the problem now, isn't it? People are stupid.

[Lomac]

I haven't really read too much into this recall and the mechanics behind them, but does Toyota use drive by wire or cable?
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[q0192837465]

hmmm, stocks r gonna go down, good time to buy?

[Dragon-88]

I haven't really read too much into this recall and the mechanics behind them, but does Toyota use drive by wire or cable?
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

Drive by wire. also steering is all electronic.. No steering fluid needed.

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

hmmm, stocks r gonna go down, good time to buy?
i was thinking about that as well
Drive by wire. also steering is all electronic.. No steering fluid needed.

@@ didnt know that...cool

[Dragon-88]

i was thinking about that as well


@@ didnt know that...cool

Sounds cool but in a way but not very...

Drive by wire on the corolla is very slow.. One time i tried to beat a tercel at a red light. both lanes eventually merge into one.. Since i drive an auto i put my gear in low.. Green light came stepped on the pedal and got a 1 sec lag befor my car ever booted off.. All in all almost didnt beat the 90's tercel.. Sad...

Electronic steering is pretty gay imo.. Everytime i drive on the highway and get a crosswind my car weaves righ and left... Makes me feel like i'm drunk...
2 hands on the wheel or not. Although i do like the fact that i can turn any corner using my pinky... Not recommended though.

[orange7]

vtec lag is horrible as well. Floor the pedal but no power until the rev is at 4400rpm.


I think if honda made vtec kicked in at 2000rpm, they will sell a lot more cars. IMO

[Harvey Specter]

Jah, do you have the link to the article?
thanks

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100211/us_nm/us_toyota_lawsuits

[ericthehalfbee]

I haven't really read too much into this recall and the mechanics behind them, but does Toyota use drive by wire or cable?
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

Drive-by-wire on the affected vehicles. Problem is inside the accelerator pedal which can cause it to stick or bind.

As was mentioned in a different thread, apparently Toyota doesn't have the very simple safety feature of other manufacturers whereby stepping on the brake and throttle at the same time causes the engine to reduce power as it sees this as a fault. Vehicles will allow this to an extent (like when you're on a steep hill and give throttle before releasing the brake to avoid rolling back), but there's no reason for full throttle (or even half) when the brake pedal is on.

This simple feature would have prevented the deaths of the police officer and his family in California in the runaway Lexus. I'd put money that Toyota will (or has already) add this feature to new cars and will update software in current vehicles.

[jeff_alexander]

vtec lag is horrible as well. Floor the pedal but no power until the rev is at 4400rpm.


I think if honda made vtec kicked in at 2000rpm, they will sell a lot more cars. IMO

Do you even understand the reason for Vtec?

[Lomac]

vtec lag is horrible as well. Floor the pedal but no power until the rev is at 4400rpm.


I think if honda made vtec kicked in at 2000rpm, they will sell a lot more cars. IMO

:banghead:

[68style]

This simple feature would have prevented the deaths of the police officer and his family in California in the runaway Lexus. I'd put money that Toyota will (or has already) add this feature to new cars and will update software in current vehicles.

That police officer reading his owner's manual and knowing how to turn his Lexus off or shifting into neutral would have saved his life :p

[ericthehalfbee]

That police officer reading his owner's manual and knowing how to turn his Lexus off or shifting into neutral would have saved his life :pIt was a loaner from the dealer, not his personal car.

In case you missed the other thread, this is a quote taken directly from Toyota's website on how to deal with a runaway car:

- Shift the transmission gear selector to the Neutral (N) position and use the brakes to make a controlled stop at the side of the road and turn off the engine.
- If unable to put the vehicle in Neutral...

Now why whould they make a comment about being unable to shift the car into neutral?

[RenoMan]

vtec lag is horrible as well. Floor the pedal but no power until the rev is at 4400rpm.


I think if honda made vtec kicked in at 2000rpm, they will sell a lot more cars. IMO

you do know what vtec does right? and you do know why they created the vtec system right?

[hk20000]

vtec lag is horrible as well. Floor the pedal but no power until the rev is at 4400rpm.


I think if honda made vtec kicked in at 2000rpm, they will sell a lot more cars. IMO
http://i47.tinypic.com/2z56bud.jpg

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

Do you even understand the reason for Vtec?

obviously not, he is thinking SOHC

or I-VTEC which is always on just like VVTi but DOHC has a 2nd set of cams

[jlenko]

Now why whould they make a comment about being unable to shift the car into neutral?

Have you ever seen a Lexus' shift gate? It's hard enough to shift gears without being under the stress of a vehicle accelerating out of control:

http://z.about.com/d/cars/1/0/g/l/1/jf_09is_ShiftGate.jpg
http://z.about.com/d/cars/1/0/g/l/1/jf_09is_ShiftGate.jpg

You have to hit Neutral, which is right in the middle. Push too far, and you're not in Neutral anymore...

[Dragon-88]

Have you ever seen a Lexus' shift gate? It's hard enough to shift gears without being under the stress of a vehicle accelerating out of control:

http://z.about.com/d/cars/1/0/g/l/1/jf_09is_ShiftGate.jpg
http://z.about.com/d/cars/1/0/g/l/1/jf_09is_ShiftGate.jpg

You have to hit Neutral, which is right in the middle. Push too far, and you're not in Neutral anymore...

Gear lever shouldnt pass N to R unless brakes are depressed.

[hk20000]

dude it's directly UP from D without even the need to push sideways, my dick could pull that manuever...

[jlenko]

Maybe he was in sport mode... how the fuck do I know?

[ericthehalfbee]

There are a lot of reasons why you might not be able to select neutral.

What I find odd is that Toyota would mention the possibility of not being able to shift into neutral. This almost looks like they're admitting a possible fault or condition that would prevent you from shifting.

In this day of overblown lawsuits it just looks like they handed some "ammunition" to the lawyers by making such a statement.

[originalhypa]

This issue is being blown way out of proportion by the media. Give it 6 mts, and it will be a distant memory and have little to no effect on Toyota's sales.

Agreed.
And I put my money where my mouth is by buying a new Toyota, and shares during the last big drop in value. They have such a great product, and with new pricing on many models, they're poised to secure the number one spot as it should be. My GM costs me far more every year to fix cheaply made parts than it's even worth.

:(

[Zulu]

Dear Retarded Customer, go fuck yourself.

Sincerely, Toyota.

[some_punk]

I haven't really read too much into this recall and the mechanics behind them, but does Toyota use drive by wire or cable?
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

wire, cause the pedal actually returns and the PPS gets stuck inside and you cant stop it.

[ericthehalfbee]

I'd put money that Toyota will (or has already) add this feature to new cars and will update software in current vehicles.

And from the news today....

Toyoda promised a brake-override system in all future models worldwide that will add a safety measure against acceleration problems that are behind the recent massive recalls.

The system is a mechanism that overrides the accelerator if the gas and brake pedals are pressed at the same time.

The sad thing is when people read this it will look like Toyota is applying a band-aid fix to prevent runaway cars, even though most other manufacturers already have this feature in their vehicles.


To Marco911 and originalhypa, do you think NHTSA is blowing things out of proportion by continuing to investigate Toyota? Or should they have stopped once Toyota did the floor mat recall? How about in years past when NHTSA went after Ford and GM for major safety recalls? Do you think Toyota is being treated unfairly or differently from other manufacturers by NHTSA and/or the media?

[originalhypa]

I consider that there were two major gaffes by the NHTSA regarding Toyota.
The first was when the NHTSA announced that the recall wasn't actually voluntary, but that the NHTSA made Toyota recall the vehicles. This was rescinded the next day by the NHTSA as a "mis-communication".

The other gaffe was when the secretary of the NHTSA said, in congress, that Toyotas are not safe, and owners should not drive them. Again, this was taken back the next day.

The problem is that both of theses "false" statements affected Toyota's share price dropping it, and the overall value of the company drastically. Now, take into account the efforts the US gov't are going through in order to re-establish GM as the top, and the fact that the NHTSA is an arm of that same gov't, and the writing is on the wall.

[RRxtar]

^deserves a thanks for the insight, but a fail for the conspiracy theory it hints at.

[civic_rice]

so, we just purchased our second corrola. had an 07 and got a 10 becuase they were a lot cheaper payments then the 07 and a much nicer car. who cares about all the recalls. ford has one where the car could catch fire...anyone worried about that? im not a toyota fan by any means but they are good cars for a DD

[originalhypa]

^deserves a thanks for the insight, but a fail for the conspiracy theory it hints at.

And why is that?
Is it that hard to comprehend that the US gov't found that a simple attack on Toyota's quality and character could give them some time to stop the financial bleeding that GMAC and GMC are going through?

It seems that the AFP, one of the largest and oldest news agencies agrees with me.

Is US bullying Toyota on recall?

By Mira Oberman (AFP) – Feb 3, 2010

CHICAGO — The US transportation chief's public rebukes of Toyota's handling of a massive safety recall have raised eyebrows, given the US government's major stake in rivals General Motors and Chrysler.

"The optics are terrible because -- and this is what happens when a government owns a company - the two companies that are going to gain the most out of this are General Motors and Chrysler," said Peter Morici, a professor at the University of Maryland's business school.

"But their behavior is consistent with the general policy of the US government, whether it's dealing with coffeemakers or cars."

Safety officials understand that product design mistakes are inevitable and will work to help companies correct the problem and alert consumers. But they will not tolerate a slow or weak response, Morici told AFP.

Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood sat down with reporters Wednesday to lay out a timeline of how US officials had "pushed Toyota to take corrective actions" on its pedal problems since 2007.

The meeting came a day after he issued a statement accusing the Japanese automaker of dragging its feet on recalling vehicles in danger of sudden, unintended acceleration due to pedals which could get trapped under floor mats or become "sticky."

He also caused a brief panic when he told a congressional panel that owners of 5.3 million Toyota vehicles affected by the recalls should "stop driving" them.

LaHood later sought to tone down his remarks, telling reporters: "What I meant to say and what I thought I said was if you own one of these cars or if you're in doubt, take it to the dealer and they're going to fix it."

But he insisted that safety officials "will continue to hold Toyota's feet to the fire to make sure that they are doing everything they have promised to make their vehicles safe."

Legislators meanwhile signaled that they would expand their probe, demanding answers on why Toyota's Tacoma trucks -- which have a different pedal assembly than the 5.3 million vehicles recalled -- were also experiencing problems with sudden, unintended acceleration.

Toyota's top US official, Yoshimi Inaba, is set to testify at a congressional hearing Wednesday.

LaHood's strong initial comments could cause some "hysteria, but to some extent, we are such a litigious society, he has no choice but to say that because of the lawsuits that are lined up," said Rebecca Lindland, an analyst with IHS Global Insight.

"If one more person is killed, they can say that the government didn't act; Toyota did not act."

Weston Konishi, an expert on Japan at the Mansfield Foundation think-tank, said he doubted either Washington or Tokyo wanted the Toyota flap to escalate.

"Toyota is now a real stakeholder in the US economy -- think of its auto plants and jobs -- so trying to score points against it would be somewhat self-defeating," he added.

Konishi said he could only see Toyota becoming the governments' business if the company cut off contracts with US manufacturers due to lack of confidence in quality control after the problems with the US-made pedals.

David Champion, director of automobile testing for Consumer Reports magazine, said the reaction to the recall was overblown.

"When you look at the statistics we are putting an awful lot of effort on a very small risk," he said.

"There has been something like 2,000 complaints of unintended acceleration in some 20 million Toyota vehicles -- it's almost like trying to find a needle in a haystack."

Champion lamented as "unfortunate" that it took the death of an off-duty California state trooper and three members of his family to prompt Toyota to issue a mass recall in September to address the problem.

But he said a congressional investigation was an "overreaction" and noted that the "sticky" pedal problem that caused Toyota to halt production and sales of eight models last month was not linked to any accidents or injuries.

"I'm sure it's going to hurt Toyota in the short term over the next year or so," Champion said.

"But if their products are as good as they have been in the past, we're going to see that Toyota's going to bounce back as Ford has from the Firestone (tire recall) fiasco."

[ivanz]

Gear lever shouldnt pass N to R unless brakes are depressed.

Even if you put it in R while going at speed, it wont engage until you stop. It is a well known way to turn on your rear view camera if you are cruising to a stop or something. At least on the IS/GS...
Also, the shift pattern is the exact same on my Mitsubishi, which most people with decent muscle motor skills could do without even looking.

[rcoccultwar]

^deserves a thanks for the insight, but a fail for the conspiracy theory it hints at.

You know, it is good insight.

I dont really sense any hints of conspiracy theories from the poster though. Not over analyse characters on this site, but
Originalhypa doesnt really fall into the catagory of conspiracy theorist.
According to October's Psychology Today article on conspiracy theorist's, these people tend to be loner's, unsuccessful and they have the feeling that the "whole world is against them."

Now, I have to say that I think hypa definity has had some luck and good timing on his side for where he is today.

Back to the article though, Im waiting for a big court date..
You know, there are a lot of court case's that go through law without even a peep from the public eye.

Btw, the editor is kinda cute;)

[ericthehalfbee]

I consider that there were two major gaffes by the NHTSA regarding Toyota.
The first was when the NHTSA announced that the recall wasn't actually voluntary, but that the NHTSA made Toyota recall the vehicles. This was rescinded the next day by the NHTSA as a "mis-communication".

The other gaffe was when the secretary of the NHTSA said, in congress, that Toyotas are not safe, and owners should not drive them. Again, this was taken back the next day.

The problem is that both of theses "false" statements affected Toyota's share price dropping it, and the overall value of the company drastically. Now, take into account the efforts the US gov't are going through in order to re-establish GM as the top, and the fact that the NHTSA is an arm of that same gov't, and the writing is on the wall.
Toyota has done the same thing. When the NHTSA said they had not found any problems with the Lexus that the officer in Cali was killed in, Toyota quickly issued a statement that "the NHTSA has found no fault with the vehicle" making it sound like the investigation was finished and there was no problem with the Lexus. In fact, the NHTSA stated they hadn't yet found a fault, but were still looking. NHTSA informed Toyota of this and Toyota had to retract their statement.

Toyota's press release for the recall even states "there have been no reported fatalities" when in fact there are 19 (as of the last time I checked).

I personally don't think Toyota is being treated unfairly. The NHTSA has vigorously gone after Ford, GM and others in the past for safety issues. I don't see the NHTSA as acting differently, but the timing is just unfortunate for Toyota and good for GM.

Another problem involves the psychology and mindset of the typical Toyota owner. They believe their vehicles are perfect and therefore have a lower than normal rate of reporting of incidents by owners than domestics do. Simply put, if 1,000 people driving a Ford have an incident of unintended acceleration, maybe 100 will actually report it and the rest will take responsibility for their mistake in pressing the wrong pedal. With a Toyota, you might get 10-20 that would report it because they believe their Toyota is "too good" to have such a problem.

Yet even with this difference, Toyota still has a significantly higher rate of unintended acceleration problems than the average for all makes. When you consider that Toyota drivers are less likely to report, this makes the real numbers far worse than what is being reported. This is why, for example, insurance companies are taking a closer look at these accidents and not blindly attributing them to "driver error" (which is the norm for insurance companies, because it usually is driver error).

Another example of the "psychology" of this issue, the number of accidents in Toyota vehicles having unintended acceleration have shot up since the announcement of the recall by Toyota. Part of this is people are now reporting what they previously would have called driver error hoping Toyota will somehow cover their screw up. Another part is the subconsious - if you're driving a vehicle that you believe has a sticky throttle problem, then you're more likely to have an accident because in the back of your mind you're almost expecting it to happen.

There have been several studies done over the years that show this to be true. One example is courtesy cars for collision repair facilities. They have a very high rate of accidents vs the general population. This was found because the driver who is getting their car fixed is in a different state of mind, questioning their abilities and being just plain flustered. Even though the accident could have been days earlier, they still have these thoughts and because of this they make more mistakes with the courtesy car (or with their newly repaired car they just got back). They aren't bad drivers, but for a brief period of time in the back of their mind they think they are.

BTW, the statistics for Toyota having a higher rate of unintended acceleration problems is from before the recall was made public, so it's more accurate than recent statistics.

[Marco911]

The only failure on Toyota's part was not to have the brake overrride feature installed where consumers riding the accelerator and the brake at the same time for longer than 1 second would result in cutting 95% of the power to the engine.


I conjecture that most accidents are not caused by sticking throttles but buy dumb toyota drivers that mistake the gas pedal for the brake pedal ala Audi 5000. If you look at the data that Toyota gave CTS (posted on CTS' website) http://www.ctscorp.com/publications/press_releases/nr100127.htm
there is no data supporting any stuck accelerator pedals, only a dozen or so instances of pedals returning slowly to its orginal position.

[orange7]

Toyota has done the same thing. When the NHTSA said they had not found any problems with the Lexus that the officer in Cali was killed in, Toyota quickly issued a statement that "the NHTSA has found no fault with the vehicle" making it sound like the investigation was finished and there was no problem with the Lexus. In fact, the NHTSA stated they hadn't yet found a fault, but were still looking. NHTSA informed Toyota of this and Toyota had to retract their statement.

Toyota's press release for the recall even states "there have been no reported fatalities" when in fact there are 19 (as of the last time I checked).

I personally don't think Toyota is being treated unfairly. The NHTSA has vigorously gone after Ford, GM and others in the past for safety issues. I don't see the NHTSA as acting differently, but the timing is just unfortunate for Toyota and good for GM.

Another problem involves the psychology and mindset of the typical Toyota owner. They believe their vehicles are perfect and therefore have a lower than normal rate of reporting of incidents by owners than domestics do. Simply put, if 1,000 people driving a Ford have an incident of unintended acceleration, maybe 100 will actually report it and the rest will take responsibility for their mistake in pressing the wrong pedal. With a Toyota, you might get 10-20 that would report it because they believe their Toyota is "too good" to have such a problem.

Yet even with this difference, Toyota still has a significantly higher rate of unintended acceleration problems than the average for all makes. When you consider that Toyota drivers are less likely to report, this makes the real numbers far worse than what is being reported. This is why, for example, insurance companies are taking a closer look at these accidents and not blindly attributing them to "driver error" (which is the norm for insurance companies, because it usually is driver error).

Another example of the "psychology" of this issue, the number of accidents in Toyota vehicles having unintended acceleration have shot up since the announcement of the recall by Toyota. Part of this is people are now reporting what they previously would have called driver error hoping Toyota will somehow cover their screw up. Another part is the subconsious - if you're driving a vehicle that you believe has a sticky throttle problem, then you're more likely to have an accident because in the back of your mind you're almost expecting it to happen.

There have been several studies done over the years that show this to be true. One example is courtesy cars for collision repair facilities. They have a very high rate of accidents vs the general population. This was found because the driver who is getting their car fixed is in a different state of mind, questioning their abilities and being just plain flustered. Even though the accident could have been days earlier, they still have these thoughts and because of this they make more mistakes with the courtesy car (or with their newly repaired car they just got back). They aren't bad drivers, but for a brief period of time in the back of their mind they think they are.

BTW, the statistics for Toyota having a higher rate of unintended acceleration problems is from before the recall was made public, so it's more accurate than recent statistics.

can someone please summarize this for me?
it's too goddam long...

[ericthehalfbee]

The only failure on Toyota's part was not to have the brake overrride feature installed where consumers riding the accelerator and the brake at the same time for longer than 1 second would result in cutting 95% of the power to the engine.


I conjecture that most accidents are not caused by sticking throttles but buy dumb toyota drivers that mistake the gas pedal for the brake pedal ala Audi 5000. If you look at the data that Toyota gave CTS (posted on CTS' website) http://www.ctscorp.com/publications/press_releases/nr100127.htm
there is no data supporting any stuck accelerator pedals, only a dozen or so instances of pedals returning slowly to its orginal position.
You're still missing two key points. First is that Toyota has a higher than average (and not just slightly higher) recorded number of cases per 1,000 vehicles of unintended acceleration.

Second, unlike the Audi 5000, black boxes in new cars record the throttle position and brake application status when there is an accident. This can tell you right away which pedals were being pressed at the time of the accident.


BTW, I don't know about NHTSA in the US, but as of right now Toyota is not allowing Transport Canada access to airbag computer black box data. Kinda makes you wonder why they would do that, doesn't it?

[Marco911]

Toyota has done the same thing. When the

Yet even with this difference, Toyota still has a significantly higher rate of unintended acceleration problems than the average for all makes. When you consider that Toyota drivers are less likely to report, this makes the real numbers far worse than what is being reported. This is why, for example, insurance companies are taking a closer look at these accidents and not blindly attributing them to "driver error" (which is the norm for insurance companies, because it usually is driver error).


http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/the-truth-about-nhtsa-complaints/

I will go on the record to say that the incident today in California with the runaway Prius will prove to be a hoax.

[Lomac]

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/the-truth-about-nhtsa-complaints/

I will go on the record to say that the incident today in California with the runaway Prius will prove to be a hoax.

Those numbers are relatively meaningless. Oh, sure, they're great if you want to get an average of NHTSA complaints against certain manufacturers, but they're useless if you're looking for a proper pattern. As far as I'm concerned, they're all perceived issues, not actually problems. The only true way you can get proper data is by going through each company's warranty repairs and see what's been done. As well, that list is an average over many years. One company might have produced a shitty car between '01 and '04, but vastly improved afterwards. That would skew the relative complaint percent to them being merely average.

Oh, and MB, Smart and Porsche at the bottom? You can't tell me that's correct. The only way the latter two are able to place themselves at the bottom of the list would be because of the percentage of their cars on the road compared to Toyota and GM.

[Marco911]

Those numbers are relatively meaningless. Oh, sure, they're great if you want to get an average of NHTSA complaints against certain manufacturers,

The data shows that the media is overhyping this when they claim that the NHTSA has been inundated with complaints about Toyotas safety issues and unintended acceleration and that Toyota has been worrying about burying this issue.

-There is no problem with Toyota electronics.
-Toyota drivers are mistaking the gas from the brake
- There is a rare problem with accelerators being "sticky" - brakes are strong enough to bring the car to a safe stop for these types of issues. Toyota has addressed this issue and the floor mat issue. People need to move on...I don't know why this story still has legs. All the people crashing these toyotas and claiming it accelerated on their own are SENIORS.

There is no evidence that the CHP crash was anything other than a pedal stuck to the bottom of the floor mat.

[originalhypa]

I remember chatting with a cab driver in Vancouver a few weeks ago. He was driving a Prius and I asked how he liked it? He said after 20 years of driving a cab, he's driven everything from the Luminas to dodge minivans and everything in between. He said the Prius was the best car he's ever driven, and actually changed the face of cabs. He could let the thing sit idle without costing him profit, and his fuel costs were a third of what his domestic driving cohorts were putting down. Not to mention the lack of downtime. His 08' Prius had 300,000km on it, and had never had an issue. These are the kind of stories that ring true, not some retired jackass looking to cash in.

[Lomac]

Marco, I'm not disagreeing with the media overhyping the UA issue. I personally think 99% of all these new claims are bogus. I'm just saying that the raw data shown in the link doesn't tell much of a story.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[Great68]

That link also doesn't differentiate the type of problem/complaint...

I wonder how many complaints are actually due to serious "Car is non-driveable" problems, vs less serious problems.

[Marco911]

Marco, I'm not disagreeing with the media overhyping the UA issue. I personally think 99% of all these new claims are bogus. I'm just saying that the raw data shown in the link doesn't tell much of a story.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

Then we agree, because the media is using this data to imply Toyotas have a high proportion of complaints for UA.

[originalhypa]

Breaking: ABC News Admits to Faking Part of Toyota Acceleration Video

ABC News has now admitted that a part of the video it used to illustrate the unintended acceleration of a Toyota model in a recent report was faked. The video, outlining a tactic used by professor David Gilbert of Southern Illinois University to cause an unintended acceleration in a Toyota product, was not an actual shot of the car’s tachometer during the sudden acceleration, but a clip of the tachometer sweeping across the screen while the car was in park. Sure, it makes for great TV, with the rpms rising suddenly, but it’s not accurate. As such, it has called into question the validity of the entire ABC News story, which could have far greater consequences.

After all, just days after the story ran, Professor Gilbert appeared before the House Committee’s investigation into Toyota’s ongoing recall crisis with his report. Toyota has since debunked Prof. Gilbert’s findings showing that his method of creating an unintended acceleration is unnatural and not likely to occur in real world circumstances. Toyota and a third-party engineering firm (funded by Toyota) also showed that using Prof. Gilbert’s method, they were able to produce unintended acceleration in many different vehicles from other automakers. Conversely, Prof. Gilbert’s research was paid for in part by safety advocate group Safety Research & Strategies, which in turn receives funding from law firms suing Toyota.

ABC News has since used a different shot and issued, not an apology, but a reason for the original footage, saying the cameraman could not get a good picture and so a different clip was used.

“This was a misjudgment made in the editing room,” said ABC News spokeswoman Emily Lenzner. “They should have left the shaky shot in. But I want to make clear that the two-second shot that was used did not change the outcome of the report in any way. It was not like ABC was trying to alter the footage. There was no staging. There was no dramatization. It was an editing mistake.”

This isn’t the first time the report’s validity has been called into question either, as automotive personality and host of Autoline Detroit, John McElroy, recently challenged the ABC News story, recalling the 1987 60 Minutes story over unintended acceleration in Audis that was later proved to be absurd as well as a 1993 Dateline NBC story over exploding Chevy pickups that was later retracted after a General Motors investigation proved it was rigged.

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2010/03/breaking-abc-news-admits-to-faking-part-of-toyota-acceleration-video.html

:eek:

[ericthehalfbee]

^ CBS 60 Minutes did the same thing with Chevy pickups that caught fire from side impacts. They couldn't get one to catch fire on camera, so they rigged up "igniters" to make sure the fuel caught fire for their news broadcast.

Edit: NBC, not CBS. Was in a rush and got mixed up. Should have read previous post I guess. :(

NBC used explosives to make sure the gas tank caught fire. Slow motion films revealed smoke just before the actual impact occurred.

[no_clue]

So apparently the guy with the prius in san diego is bankrupt and in debt.
Also he missed like 3 payments on the lease.

So what good "luck" was it that his prius decided to accelerate and give him grounds for a lawsuit........ :)

[Marco911]

^^What is fucked up about that story though is that his Prius is equipped with a brake override system, which means that he can't brake and accelerate at the same time!

He can pull the emergency brake and accelerate, that would only burn the rear brake pads, but if there is evidence that the frt brakes are smoked, his car is legitimately fucked!

[!SG]

industry looking for the next scapegoat, it was ford in the 80s, then the big 3 just last couple years.

[tofu1413]

then FOX will report something about al-qaeda having something to do with this, and all the hate will be diverted from toyota to al-qaeda AGAIN.


pft. media. mis-informing since the printing press was invented

[originalhypa]

Guess what Marco?
You may be correct when you said this...
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/the-truth-about-nhtsa-complaints/

I will go on the record to say that the incident today in California with the runaway Prius will prove to be a hoax.




From the Montreal Gazette.

Runaway Prius story more fiction than fact

“On the very day Toyota was making a high-profile defence of its cars, one of them was speeding out of control,” said CBS News — and a vast number of other media outlets worldwide. The driver of a 2008 Toyota Prius, James Sikes, called 911 to say his accelerator was stuck, he was zooming faster than 90 miles per hour and absolutely couldn’t slow down.

It got far more dramatic, though. The California Highway Patrol responded and “to get the runaway car to stop, they actually had to put their patrol car in front of the Prius and step on the brakes.” During over 20 harrowing minutes, according to NBC’s report, Sikes “did everything he could to try to slow down that Prius.” Others said, “Radio traffic indicated the driver was unable to turn off the engine or shift the car into neutral.”

In fact, almost none of this was true. Virtually every aspect of Sikes’s story as told to reporters makes no sense. His claim that he’d tried to yank up the accelerator could be falsified, with his help, in half a minute. And now we even have an explanation for why he’d pull such a stunt, beyond the all-American desire to have 15 minutes of fame (recall the “Balloon Boy Hoax” from October) and the aching need to be perceived as a victim.

The lack of skepticism from the beginning was stunning. I combed through haystacks of articles without producing such needles as the words “alleges” or “claims.” When Sikes said he brought his car to a Toyota dealer two weeks earlier, recall notice in hand, and they just turned him away, the media bought that, too. In Sikes We Trust. Then the pundits deluged us with a tsunami of anti-Toyota sanctimony.

Where to begin?

Well, the patrol car didn’t slow down the Prius; the bumpers never touched. The officers used a loudspeaker to tell Sikes to use the brakes and emergency brake together. He did; the car slowed to about 55 mph. Sikes turned off the engine and coasted to a halt. He stopped the car on his own.

There wasn’t anything wrong with the transmission or the Prius engine button either.

Over a 23-minute period the 911 dispatcher repeatedly pleaded with Sikes to shift into neutral. He simply refused and then essentially stopped talking to her except to say that he thought he could smell his brakes burning.

“I thought about” shifting into neutral, Sikes said at a televised news conference the day after the incident. But “I had never played with this kind of a transmission, especially when you’re driving and I was actually afraid to do that.” Sikes, who has driven the car for two years, also said “I figured if I knocked it over (the gear knob) the car might flip.”

He told CNN, “I was afraid to try to (reach) over there and put it in neutral. I was holding onto the steering wheel with both hands — 94 miles an hour in a Toyota Prius is fast.” Yet for much of the ride he had a phone in one hand.

And this is especially interesting: Most gear shifts are on the console, requiring the hand to drop to shift. But in the 2008 Prius it’s located on the dash within inches of the steering wheel — precisely to allow shifting without the hand leaving the wheel. I sat in one and did it easily. Another unique feature of the shift is that it’s amazingly simple, with only forward, reverse, neutral and “B.” The express purpose of “B” is to slow the car while preserving the brakes, as in a steep descent. Sikes actually could have shifted into two different gears.

Moreover, why would Sikes describe shifting gears as somehow “playing with the transmission?” And apparently he’s never shifted while the vehicle was moving and thought somehow a gear shift could flip his car.

The dispatcher also pleaded with him repeatedly to hit the ignition button. Again, he says he was simply afraid to.

Early in the news conference he said it was because “there was too much traffic to just shut the car off. You know, turn off the vehicle and get hit in the rear.” But that’s always true when you slow down; just make sure nobody’s right behind you. Later he switched gears — pun not intended — saying he was afraid the steering wheel and wheels would lock up.

Then there are the brakes.

Sikes said his brakes had just been checked out a few weeks earlier, but during the incident he “was laying on the brakes. It was not slowing down.”

Others have made similar claims, so Car & Driver magazine recently put them to the test. They found a V-6 Camry at full throttle could be stopped at 130 metres. But to really test the claim, they used a powerful 540-horsepower supercharged Roush Stage 3 Mustang. It took 275 metres, but stop it did.

By comparison, the Prius can only muster 110 anemic ponies. Further, as Newton’s Second Law reminds us, weight is inherently a factor in slowing a moving object. The Prius weighs about two-thirds of what the Roush does.

But while these other cars were brought to full stop, Sikes says he couldn’t even reduce his speed. A video on the web also demonstrates a 2008 Prius easily slowed to a stop with the accelerator fully depressed.

An assisting officer said he saw Sikes apply the brakes and smelled them. But of course that was only when he drew close to the vehicle. The officer doesn’t know what Sikes was doing before he arrived on the scene.

Now here’s the potential smoking gun: Sikes told the reporters that “I was reaching down and trying to pull up on the gas pedal. It didn’t move at all; it was stationary.” That’s awfully daring for somebody who insisted he didn’t even want to take a hand off his steering wheel, notwithstanding that he did so to hold his phone.

I tried to imitate Sikes’ alleged effort in a 2008 Prius. From the front bottom of the steering wheel to the front bottom of the accelerator in up position, it’s 28.5 inches; while fully deployed it’s 2.5 inches farther away. I have average-length arms (33-inch shirt sleeve) and no gut. But even though the steering wheel was as flush to the dashboard as it goes, it prevented me from all but touching the accelerator in the up position.

To reach behind a deployed accelerator and get any kind of a grip you’d have to add at least three more inches. In my case, it required squashing my face against the radio and completely removing my eyes from the road. Only the tallest men could physically do what Sikes claimed he did and no press accounts refer his being exceptionally tall. But to settle this issue (albeit not the others), Sikes would simply have to sit in his Prius and show he could reach behind the pedal while it was fully depressed. Why has nobody asked him to do so? Moreover, even for an orangutan it would be an incredibly awkward move for somebody afraid to pop a car into neutral or hit the ignition button.

So why did he do it? Sleuth work at the websites Jalopnik.com and Gawker.com reveals that Sikes and his wife Patty in 2008 filed for bankruptcy and are over $700,000 in debt. Among their creditors is Toyota Financial Services for a lease on a 2008 Toyota Prius, with value at time of bankruptcy of $20,494. The Jalopnik website shows a copy of Toyota’s secured claims form, though when Jalopnik questioned Sikes by e-mail he denied being behind on his Prius payments.

Sikes also has a history of filing insurance claims for allegedly stolen items that is slowly coming to light. In 2001, he filed a police report with the Merced County Sheriff’s Department for $58,000 in stolen property, including jewelry, a prosumer mini-DV camera and gear, and $24,000 in cash, according to Fox40 in Sacramento. His bankruptcy documents show a 2008 payment of $7,400 for an allegedly stolen saxophone and clothes.

For what it’s worth, Sikes owned and operated a website called AdultSwingLife.com. More salacious material on this man will continue to pour in.

But the news conference alone makes it clear Sikes’ story didn’t wash. Journalism schools are supposed to teach that skepticism is paramount. “If your mother says it, check it out,” goes the adage. Yet comments on websites across the country reveal that practically everyone thought the Prius incident was a hoax — though they couldn’t prove it — except for the media.

They have been as determined to not investigate Sikes’ claims as Sikes was to not stop his car. It’s a Toyota media feeding frenzy and the media aren’t about to let little things like incredible stories and readily refutable claims get in the way.

Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Runaway+Prius+story+more+fiction+than+fact/2677474/story.html#ixzz0i58EnGYH

[ericthehalfbee]

^ Yeah, sounds pretty fishy. Just like the guy in the US who crashed his car into the dealership claiming the throttle stuck.

Regardless, just because there are going to be a lot of scammers coming out of the woodwork trying to take advantage of this situation doesn't mean that all accidents are hoaxes, not does it mean there are no problems with Toyota vehicles.

That link posted above is meaningless since it doesn't break down the types of problems. Here are some facts to consider:

- Toyota owners are less likely to report problems. A perfect example of this is the Pontiac Vibe vs Toyota Matrix, two mechanically identical vehicles, save for some cosmetic & trim options. Yet owner opinions of the Pontiac Vibe and its reliability are lower than the Toyota Matrix. This has also been used as an example of the flaws in Consumer Reports reliability ratings as these two cars often have different ratings when they should be identical.
- UA falls under two categories. Low speed accidents and high speed accidents. Low speed accidents are almost always driver error. You press the wrong pedal and hit another car or your garage before you even realize what happened. NHTSA and Transport Canada aren't concerned with these accidents. High speed are the types of accidents where the vehicle is on a highway or other road where the UA incident can last for several seconds or much longer. These are also the types of incidents where the driver has time to correct the problem. If they hit the gas by mistake, it's easy to take your foot off and try the brake again. It's intersting to note that Toyota's procedures they give to explain to drivers how to deal with UA only deal with high-speed incidents. When would you have time to put a car into neutral, switch off the key and so on when pulling into your garage?
- When NHTSA and Transport Canada investigate these incidents one of the things they do is take pedal measurements inside the vehicle. This has been done since the Audi 5000. Some vehicles have pedals that could be considered "safer" in that it's less likely a person would press the wrong pedal. Others have pedal placements that make it more likely a driver could make a pedal application mistake (FYI, the Land Rover Discovery is one of the worst and could be the modern day Audi 5000 - it's very easy to make an incorrect pedal application in these vehicles). The vehicles that Toyota is recalling would fall into the "safer" category in that they have "good" pedal positions, making driver error less likely than the average for all manufacturers.
- If you take out only UA complaints at speed and ignore the "meaningless" incidents, Toyota has a higher than average (based on incidents per number of vehicles) number of UA complaints.

You take all the above into account and it's pretty clear that Toyota has a real problem of UA that is greater than other manufacturers. They have better pedal placement (which should reduce UA complaints) and they have owners that are more likely to "own up" to their mistakes instead of questioning their car and filing a complaint. This should result in Toyota having far fewer UA complaints, but they in fact have more than their share.

The simple fact that Toyota has made 2 recalls of 8 million vehicles for 2 identifiable problems shows that this is a real problem, not something imagined by bad drivers.

Of course the media is going overboard. It happens everytime someone or some company that's put on a pedestal has a problem. Tiger Woods doesn't behave any differently than countless other celebrities. Problem is he has a clean-cut image which makes his adultery so newsworthy. Toyota is considered "perfect" and when they have a problem it's big news.

[Marco911]

I would love to see the dash cam of the police cruiser. I want to know if the brakes was being applied while the car continues to accelerate. You cannot do this with the brake override feature.

[- kT]

I haven't really read too much into this recall and the mechanics behind them, but does Toyota use drive by wire or cable?
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

like everybody else has said, drive by wire
problem wasn't with the throttle though, just isolated to the accelerator pedal itself

still, manufacturer's should just stick with mechanical throttles

[no_clue]

I'm going to side with marco911 that this guy is a hoax. The media is comparing him
with that balloon boy in colorado? a while ago.

Look at his history. what a dirtbag lol, I hope Toyota sues him if it's possible.

[Marco911]

yeah, it's a hoax. I figured out how he can apply the brakes and gas at the same time without activating the brake override feature. In my Porsche, the brake override doesn't kick in until you depress the brake pedal quite far together with the accelerator. Thus, you can ride the brakes and still not have the brake override activate. My guess is he had the handbrake applied to smoke the rear brakes

[no_clue]

SAN DIEGO – Investigators with Toyota Motor Corp. and the federal government could not replicate the runaway speeding reported by a Prius owner who said his car's accelerator stuck as he drove on a California freeway, according to a memo for a congressional panel. The memo, obtained Saturday by The Associated Press, said the experts who examined and test drove the car could not replicate the sudden, unintended acceleration James Sikes said he encountered. A backup mechanism that shuts off the engine when the brake and gas pedals are floored also worked properly during tests.

hahaha it's starting