[Tim Budong]

http://www.cknw.com/Channels/Reg/NewsLocal/Story.aspx?ID=1214923&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

so here it is
the petition law/policy that would force a referendum on this

so show your support guys

[StylinRed]

there's going to be a ton of people canvasing bc to get signatures

[sunny_j]

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk184/djsunny1/misc%20forum%20postings/Gordon_Campbell-Joker.jpg

[tool001]

so if they get enough votes, they will have to vote on it in the Legislature? however don't the liberals hold majority in the Legislature? this will only work if the some liberals vote against party line..

[MG1]

so if they get enough votes, they will have to vote on it in the Legislature? however don't the liberals hold majority in the Legislature? this will only work if the some liberals vote against party line..

I think a referendum means we, the people, get to vote - not the asswipes in parliament.

According to the source, getting to the point they hold a referendum might seem easy, but 10% of voters in each riding? One thing the government is counting on, is people are pretty damn lazy.

Having said that, Vanderzalm is heading the campaign to stop the HST, so ya never know............

[tool001]

I think a referendum means we, the people, get to vote - not the asswipes in parliament.

According to the source, getting to the point they hold a referendum might seem easy, but 10% of voters in each riding? One thing the government is counting on, is people are pretty damn lazy.

Having said that, Vanderzalm is heading the campaign to stop the HST, so ya never know............

if u read the article it says referendum or vote/repeal in the legislature.
either way , BC has gotten 1.x billion from federal govt. for this already...haven't they?



VANCOUVER/CKNW(AM980)
Jordan Armstrong | Email news tips to jordan.armstrong@corusent.com
4/6/2010

If you don't like the HST, take the lid off your pen. The Citizen's Initiative Petition to kill the blended tax launches Tuesday.

It's a legally binding petition that, if successful, would require the BC Government to hold a referendum on the HST, or repeal it in the Legislature. But, just to get to that stage, ten per cent of registered voters in each Provincial riding have to sign it. And they have to do so within 90 days.

Former Premier Bill Vander Zalm is the leader of Fight HST", "No trouble getting support, but we do have to go out and collect the signatures. And that's a big job."

The petition campaign kicks-off at 7:30 p-m at Kitsilano Secondary School which happens to be located in Premier Gordon Campbell's riding.

[MG1]

if u read the article it says referendum or vote/repeal in the legislature.
either way , BC has gotten 1.x billion from federal govt. for this already...haven't they?

So we're screwed either way. Thanks, Gordon "Drunken Bastard" Campbell.



As for the referendum, if it is in the legislature, it's basically futile. At least the petition, if it turns out to be massive, will send a clear message to the Liberals. Fuck, I hate them, but the NDP are worse.

[MG1]

Wait.........

BC Government to hold a referendum on the HST, or repeal it in the Legislature


or repeal it in the Legislature.

........hold a referendum suggests the public gets to vote.


the comma in there is key



EDIT: so who makes the choice between a referendum and a repeal? the speaker? This is provincial politics, so not hte same as federal? OK, who's into politics on RS?

[Tim Budong]

heres another take on all this
If infact that more ppl came out and voted at the last provincial election, we might not even be in this mess
dont care b4, look what happens

Its a good reason to come out and vote. I do understand that both parties thsi time around fought with no platform whatsoever, which made it confusing, but still. EVERY VOTE COUNTS in an election

[MG1]

heres another take on all this
If infact that more ppl came out and voted at the last provincial election, we might not even be in this mess
dont care b4, look what happens

Its a good reason to come out and vote. I do understand that both parties thsi time around fought with no platform whatsoever, which made it confusing, but still. EVERY VOTE COUNTS in an election

Agree. Nobody should complain if they did not go to the polling stations to excercise thier franchise. However, what the liberals did was go through with this HST thing, which I think is pretty significant to average Joe, without much public input. Even though they have the mandate to do whatever they want (to an extent) they should have put it to a referendum. I guess the money from the federal government was a little too good to pass up.


Edit" In other words, nobody voted for the liberals because they wanted the HST.

[Hehe]

Can any business owner share some inputs on how exactly is HST beneficial to your industry?

My friend runs a lil Chinese restaurant in North Van and he's scared of it. He said, it's not exactly a good time to raise prices, and if he were to eat the extra 7%, he calculated he would effectively lose about 5% of income by factoring all possible savings from a simplified tax system currently foreseeable. And he finished his bachelor degree with accounting options, so I don't think he is exaggerating.

Consider that service and housing are among the biggest industries in BC with restaurant taking a big share out of service, they are perhaps the worst hit industries for HST. I really don't see much benefit from HST unless they introduce some exemptions.

[Ch28]

I did my part by sending out an email to people in the office this morning.

Do your part and make sure everybody knows about this!

Bill Tieleman wrote a nice little article about it today in 24 Hours

http://vancouver.24hrs.ca/Columnists/NewsViewsAttitude/2010/04/06/13484991.html

[DuhDang]

so we have to go to kitsilano to sign the petition?

[Graeme S]

so we have to go to kitsilano to sign the petition?
You have to sign the petition in your local electoral area. I live in Burnaby, but I work Downtown. I have to sign the petition in Burnaby, I can't sign it downtown.

[Soundy]

If you were listening to Mike Smyth yesterday on NW, he explained what this means:

If Zalm gets his 10% in EVERY riding, it means a referendum must be held. That means the public votes on whether they want to see it repealed.

IF the referendum passes, they can introduce repeal legislation. However, the referendum itself is not binding. A call to repeal the bill is also not binding.

So in short, if the gov't wants this pushed through, nothing the Zalm does can stop it.

What this DOES do, if it gets enough opposition, is give the gov't a good indication of the level of support - or not - for the HST, and how dangerous it really is to them come the next election. If the opposition is strong enough, they MAY stop it to protect their own political asses... but none of this can force them to change anything.

All that said, most REPUTABLE economists state that the HST will be beneficial to the BC economy as a whole, and the other provinces that have implemented it bear this out, so... go ahead and sign the petition... be selfish and short-sighted and don't think about the future. Who needs a stable economy anyway?

[Soundy]

so we have to go to kitsilano to sign the petition?

It only started there because that Gordo's riding... it was done for the "big splash" factor.

[Tapioca]

Can any business owner share some inputs on how exactly is HST beneficial to your industry?

My friend runs a lil Chinese restaurant in North Van and he's scared of it. He said, it's not exactly a good time to raise prices, and if he were to eat the extra 7%, he calculated he would effectively lose about 5% of income by factoring all possible savings from a simplified tax system currently foreseeable. And he finished his bachelor degree with accounting options, so I don't think he is exaggerating.

Consider that service and housing are among the biggest industries in BC with restaurant taking a big share out of service, they are perhaps the worst hit industries for HST. I really don't see much benefit from HST unless they introduce some exemptions.

Has he really looked at how much he will be saving on his inputs? It seems to me that much of the concern from small businesses comes from the sales side. Well, let's say the average bill at a Chinese restaurant is $30 before taxes.

GST = $31.05
HST = $33.60

So, people are going to stop going out for lunch over less than $3?

If you introduce exemptions, this makes the tax less effective. We have the second lowest income taxes in the country. Consumption taxes have to make up the difference.

[misteranswer]

Can any business owner share some inputs on how exactly is HST beneficial to your industry?

My friend runs a lil Chinese restaurant in North Van and he's scared of it. He said, it's not exactly a good time to raise prices, and if he were to eat the extra 7%, he calculated he would effectively lose about 5% of income by factoring all possible savings from a simplified tax system currently foreseeable. And he finished his bachelor degree with accounting options, so I don't think he is exaggerating.

Consider that service and housing are among the biggest industries in BC with restaurant taking a big share out of service, they are perhaps the worst hit industries for HST. I really don't see much benefit from HST unless they introduce some exemptions.

Read up on what a Value Added Tax is and the comparisons to a Pure Sales Tax.

[misteranswer]

Has he really looked at how much he will be saving on his inputs? It seems to me that much of the concern from small businesses comes from the sales side. Well, let's say the average bill at a Chinese restaurant is $30 before taxes.

GST = $31.05
HST = $33.60

So, people are going to stop going out for lunch over less than $3?

If you introduce exemptions, this makes the tax less effective. We have the second lowest income taxes in the country. Consumption taxes have to make up the difference.

Not everyone, but some will. Perhaps instead of eating out 5 days a week you drop it to 4. Or perhaps instead of buying that 7 dollar meal you instead go for the 6 dollar meal. And then it might also only affect 10% of your customers.

[Hehe]

^

That's his main concern. He fears that by adding the price, his regulars will visit less often. He thought about promoting that they left the price at the same level pre/post hst will help (effectively reducing the price by same margin of the tax), but then he will be hit by the 5% reduction in revenue on average.

It's not about what kind of taxation this is. It's simply that given our current economy, raising price (not the price from sellers, but the absolute number consumer have to pay) only hurts the sales.

Some might argue that the percentage affected is small, but the chain effect of the whole thing is what's bad.

People spend less-->business spend less-->workers have less income-->spending even less...

[misteranswer]

It's not about what kind of taxation this is. It's simply that given our current economy, raising price (not the price from sellers, but the absolute number consumer have to pay) only hurts the sales.

Some might argue that the percentage affected is small, but the chain effect of the whole thing is what's bad.

People spend less-->business spend less-->workers have less income-->spending even less...

Actually it is all about what kind of tax this is.

You only see the tax at your end. What you don't see is the tax that is paid before the item reaches you.

[q0192837465]

^

That's his main concern. He fears that by adding the price, his regulars will visit less often. He thought about promoting that they left the price at the same level pre/post hst will help (effectively reducing the price by same margin of the tax), but then he will be hit by the 5% reduction in revenue on average.

It's not about what kind of taxation this is. It's simply that given our current economy, raising price (not the price from sellers, but the absolute number consumer have to pay) only hurts the sales.

Some might argue that the percentage affected is small, but the chain effect of the whole thing is what's bad.

People spend less-->business spend less-->workers have less income-->spending even less...

Taxes has a tendancy to reallocate wealth. Money just doesnt disappear, as shown in your example.

[Roach]

For the record, I support HST. I believe the this will make our province more lucrative to invest in and decrease a lot of complication that the PST structure provided.

That being said, I totally understand the consumer's frustration with the implemented changes. Having to pay more at a restaurant or barbershop is not the greatest feeling. That being said, I did read a study (http://www.cdhowe.org/pdf/commentary_253.pdf) recently by a University of Toronto professor analyzing the effect of HST implementation on maritime provinces which indicated that average prices did in fact decrease in subsequent years. Therefore, I'm not sure the impact of HST implementation warrants such a severe backlash.

In all honesty, I think people protesting the HST are missing the forest for the trees. So yeah, you will have to pay 7% more at a restaurant or for a haircut. Yet, when we shop at local retailers, or buy a new car, no one questions the fact we are paying at least 30% more for a product available 100km south of us? Why does a Mazdaspeed 3 cost $34k here, but only $23k in the US? Why do your shoes cost over $100 here, yet they are only $50 in the US? Motor oil, cheese, gasoline... you name it. For a long time our dollar has been within earshot of the US dollar, and now, we are at parity. Yet, I don't see the outcry of injustice when consumers are being obviously gouged by Canadian retailers. Yet, a 7% increase in tax on some items is motivation for a petition & referendum?

And even if that 7% increase in tax occurred, where is it going? To pay for our province's needs. The Olympics, that giant party that most everyone enjoyed, doesn't come free. Neither does any of the infrastructure that we have available here. Yet, the extra 30% you are paying for your new car? That's going straight into the pocket of a Japanese/German/American company that will do little to contribute to the way of life we enjoy here. The groceries used to make your dinner at your favourite restaurant cost the restaurant more than a similar restaurant in the US. Why?

I'm sure to get flamed for this post, but I can't help but feel people are being mobilized by politicians with an agenda rather than focusing on a much bigger issue that offers the potential for a lot more saving for the average consumer.

Kev

[q0192837465]

^but u gotta understand that humans are programmed to kick into self perserverence mode whenever there is a threat.

Yes, HST will create a better future. But the questions most people ask is, what do I get out of it? The middle class is taking the biggest hit because it lowers their purchasing power. No one is willing to sacrifice themselves willingly for the sake of others because we do not live in an ideal world.

[tool001]

well, u talk about long run and how prices are suppose to decrease, hows this for example

2 years ago, when gas was at $1.40-1.50 , prices for pretty much everything went up.
when price for gas went down to $.70 and now $1, did prices at retail level or wholesale level fall back down? no

i do see that argument that savings from HST will be passed on eventually to consumers. but by that time, inflation and other factors would have smash down the saving into nothing, and pretty much nothing will be passed on...

[TheKingdom2000]

In theory, the HST makes total sense. I mean so many other places only have one tax. Why should we have two? That's more resources that we could put somewhere else.
Although, 12% is frigging high imo.

I just don't think the businesses will pass on their savings to the customer?
I mean if their cost is $5 and they sell it at $10 and then they get $2 back (from HST), so now their cost is only $3, why would they want to sell their product less then $10 when people are buying it at $10?

The HST will only work if the businesses actually pass on their savings... which I do not think will happen. I mean why would they? All they care about is the bottom line anyways. This is excellent for business, but how many of us own our own business?

[misteranswer]

It's not going to happen instantly, but with competition those extra margins businesses may suddenly get start to become thinner and thinner.

This is a long term policy. You say other factors are going to "smash down" the savings, well what do you think the prices will be with the other factors and the PST? Greater or less than the other factors with the HST?

[TouringTeg]

12% is high. I read the other day that Nova Scotia is going up to 15%. I wonder how long until we follow suit.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2010/04/06/ns-budget.html

[twitchyzero]

^we were at 14.5% 4-5 years back with gst+pst combined

[Tapioca]

I just don't think the businesses will pass on their savings to the customer?
I mean if their cost is $5 and they sell it at $10 and then they get $2 back (from HST), so now their cost is only $3, why would they want to sell their product less then $10 when people are buying it at $10?

The HST will only work if the businesses actually pass on their savings... which I do not think will happen. I mean why would they? All they care about is the bottom line anyways. This is excellent for business, but how many of us own our own business?

Explain this to the small business owners. It doesn't really matter whether or not this leads to lower prices. If businesses absorb the savings, eventually the savings get spent on capital.

I suppose I can concede that the HST may hurt businesses that are price-sensitive in the short-term, like cheap restaurants. However, unless their inputs have been obtained questionably (i.e. under the table or on a cash basis), even they are supposed to benefit from the HST when they purchase things to sell, produce, etc.

Suits will continue to spend their 100s at your chain restaurant, while the yuppies will continue to shell out 1000s at salons, fitness centres, and so on.

[Roach]

I just don't think the businesses will pass on their savings to the customer?
I mean if their cost is $5 and they sell it at $10 and then they get $2 back (from HST), so now their cost is only $3, why would they want to sell their product less then $10 when people are buying it at $10?

The HST will only work if the businesses actually pass on their savings... which I do not think will happen. I mean why would they? All they care about is the bottom line anyways. This is excellent for business, but how many of us own our own business?

I'm glad you brought this up. Inevitably, this is the biggest stumbling block for most people. They simply don't conceive that businesses will cut prices to reflect their increased margins. I see why people are trained to think that way in light of how gasoline companies handle pricing. Oil goes up? Charge more. Oil goes down? Prices stay up. That's what people witnessed and as a result they don't trust businesses.

In a situation where there is a monopoly or oligopoly (oil companies come to mind), then perhaps pricing might not come down as they can control market pricing.

However, for the Magicuts on the corner, they can't control market pricing. So if Magicuts keeps their pricing the same, keeping the HST credit, and then Great Clips reduces their pricing in light of the credit, expect Magicuts to follow suit. In the service and restaurant industry competition will dictate the price. As a result, once someone takes the lead and cuts prices, expect others to follow suit or lose clientele.

Will this happen? I can't say. But this is the theory that I think is the biggest argument in the HST discussion.

Kev

[q0192837465]

^I think it'll really depend on the item we'r talking about. Luxury items, not so much since people are will to pay premium for bragging rights. There's no incentives to lower the price. Need-based items, it should come down in price because they operating in a high volume/low margin manner.

As for gas, it IS a luxury item. People are willing to pay a premium to stay in their car, so why would oil companies bother lowering prices.

[Gridlock]

The part that I don't understand is that when NS implemented HST, it was a net decrease in tax. I can't remember what the %'s were, but they put HST in at a less total amount than the 2 combined, on a wider variety of goods.

Here's the answer BC Liberals...make it 10%...people would be cheering.

PLUS...calc'ing HST would be super easy. You would be able to know the price before going to the till.

Fuckers don't know how to introduce stuff.

[Gnomes]

^Agreed. If it's 10% or even 11%, people wont hate the HST as much.

[Gridlock]

I own my own business. I get what they are trying to do.

I only charge GST and yet pay PST on supplies.

So here is what I am going to do. I am going to take my bill, add 12% and call it a day.

Yeah, I'm going to claim all the PST that I pay, and all the GST that I pay and charge all my customers the 12%.

Guess what...so is everybody else.

The reason is simple..no one is ever going to connect the two.

That leaves the only other advantage. I'm going to be left with more money every time I file for GST. Maybe I'll be able to do more with my business with the extra money. Or I'll buy something cool. We'll see.

[Graeme S]

Kev, I did a bit of reading about the whole Atlantic provinces HST thing. One thing that doesn't get brought up so much is that the total HST was less than the GST and PST combined.

Much of the reduced costs came from the combination of a lower tax rate.

[SlySi]

I own my own business. I get what they are trying to do.

I only charge GST and yet pay PST on supplies.

So here is what I am going to do. I am going to take my bill, add 12% and call it a day.

Yeah, I'm going to claim all the PST that I pay, and all the GST that I pay and charge all my customers the 12%.

Guess what...so is everybody else.

The reason is simple..no one is ever going to connect the two.

That leaves the only other advantage. I'm going to be left with more money every time I file for GST. Maybe I'll be able to do more with my business with the extra money. Or I'll buy something cool. We'll see.

All my clients are doing the same.
Its the easiest way to manage this.

Enjoy the price hikes everyone.

[Great68]

The biggest hit from this tax will be on big ticket items: Houses, cars etc...

It's hard to swallow shelling out an extra 20 grand on a new Condo in tax...

I know that because of the HST I won't even look at new construction in the future when I buy. And fuck am I glad I bought my cars when I did.

[SlySi]

The biggest hit from this tax will be on big ticket items: Houses, cars etc...

It's hard to swallow shelling out an extra 20 grand on a new Condo in tax...

I know that because of the HST I won't even look at new construction in the future when I buy. And fuck am I glad I bought my cars when I did.

Just call it what it is....
Its a luxary tax...

[TheKingdom2000]

Just call it what it is....
Its a luxary tax...

err. how is it a luxary tax?
when if you're rich or poor you still get charged this tax?

edit; unless you mean buying a new home?

[Graeme S]

It's less a luxury tax and more a consumption tax. Although there is a floor on things like new housing and the like.

One of the things that irritates me is that the combination into the HST is that the vehicle luxury tax is disappearing. So if anything, it's less of a luxury tax.

[nightkid]

let say if HST is in place now. what is going to hold them back from introducing another PST-like tax?

[skyze]

let say if HST is in place now. what is going to hold them back from introducing another PST-like tax?

The point of the HST is to remove cascading taxes like PST.

[Expresso]

let say if HST is in place now. what is going to hold them back from introducing another PST-like tax?

That would defeat the whole purpose of implementing the HST. What they could do is just increase HST in general though.

[godwin]

I thought NS increased the HST to 15%.

^Agreed. If it's 10% or even 11%, people wont hate the HST as much.

[q0192837465]

if they were to increase tax, it'll most likely in the form of a hidden tax, like the carbon tax

[Great68]

if they were to increase tax, it'll most likely in the form of a hidden tax, like the carbon tax

By applying the full HST to things where there was only one of GST or PST before, they ARE in effect increasing taxes...

[nightkid]

since when politians are to be trusted? this minute they could tell you the purpose of HST is to elminate GST & HST, the next minute they could tell you it is time to introduce another tax on top of HST. you can also think of it this way. to increase pst, it will have to go through provincial. to increase gst, of coz, it will be the federal. however, if there is only one tax, there will only be 1 step in order to increase it. am i saying it right?

[spoon.ek9]

i'll definitely sign this, spread the word! i do NOT want to have to pay HST on an apartment in the future!!

[cressydrift]

How is anyone going to be able to afford anything in 5 years on a 50k (which i believe is above average) a year salary?

HST on everything (Heard they are raising the gst to 12% on purchases of used cars even though its HST exempt)
Carbon Tax - goes up soon
Hydro went up + for sure will go up
Gas will always go up
Food prices are rising
Transit is crazy $$$
Post Secondary literally costs an arm and a leg
Housing -UP
ETC ETC

Can't imagine what the credit crunch will be like in 5-10 years. Personally I have been and am still learning finances to take care of my self. Many people how ever are not, and continue to rack up debt. We are doomed.


Maybe its time to buy some rental properties?;)

[misteranswer]

since when politians are to be trusted? this minute they could tell you the purpose of HST is to elminate GST & HST, the next minute they could tell you it is time to introduce another tax on top of HST. you can also think of it this way. to increase pst, it will have to go through provincial. to increase gst, of coz, it will be the federal. however, if there is only one tax, there will only be 1 step in order to increase it. am i saying it right?

no

[mikemhg]

This is the coming wave of the future, not just here in Vancouver, but worldwide.

We have moved to a service driven economy, along with massive inflation, redistribution of wealth, and lessening jobs. The future does not look very good, the idea of middle class is a middle century idea that will slowly fade away, most economists are calling this, none of us will have it like our parents did, and that is simple fact.

How is anyone going to be able to afford anything in 5 years on a 50k (which i believe is above average) a year salary?

HST on everything (Heard they are raising the gst to 12% on purchases of used cars even though its HST exempt)
Carbon Tax - goes up soon
Hydro went up + for sure will go up
Gas will always go up
Food prices are rising
Transit is crazy $$$
Post Secondary literally costs an arm and a leg
Housing -UP
ETC ETC

Can't imagine what the credit crunch will be like in 5-10 years. Personally I have been and am still learning finances to take care of my self. Many people how ever are not, and continue to rack up debt. We are doomed.


Maybe its time to buy some rental properties?;)

[trip]

in my opinion, what we are slowly seeing globally is the decimation of the middle class.

soon.. you're either going to be rich or poor... be served or be the servant

[Graeme S]

http://fighthst.com/locations/?region1=ALL%20LOCATIONS%20IN%20BRITISH%20COLUMBIA

For those people interested in going somewhere to sign the HST petition.

I HIGHLY RECOMMEND THAT YOU DO THIS. WE NEED 10% OF EVERYONE IN EVERY RIDING TO DO IT.

[taylor192]

Studies showed the introduction of the GST did not raise prices. The GST was introduced in a recession and prices had dropped, so introducing the GST only caused them to drop further and balance out.

Since our economy still isn't back to booming, stores will lower prices to deal with extra HST costs.

How do I know? I went into dealers looking for a new car 6 months ago - it is sad when I get cold calls from them now.

[Greenstoner]

Studies showed the introduction of the GST did not raise prices. The GST was introduced in a recession and prices had dropped, so introducing the GST only caused them to drop further and balance out.

Since our economy still isn't back to booming, stores will lower prices to deal with extra HST costs.

How do I know? I went into dealers looking for a new car 6 months ago - it is sad when I get cold calls from them now.

HOLY SHIT, Taylor is back !!!! :thumbsup:

[taylor192]

HOLY SHIT, Taylor is back !!!! :thumbsup:
I saw your posts when I was lurking while banned. :thumbsup: Checkout my latest post in the business section.