[skyxx]

I thought I'd try and start something here since this is an automotive site. There isn't much debate on this site about oil and oil changes, whether people should use "this" weight and "that" weight or oil changes should be done every "5,000km" or "10,000km". I realized that even after years and decades of automotive discussions, different "words" and "recommendations" are still being thrown around and a lot of people are getting different(wrong) information. When I say a lot of people, I mean "enthusiast" , consumers and technicians/mechanics.

I would like to see what information and knowledge people have gathered about oil changes and the oils they use. Questions they have about it and using this thread as a way of throwing out the myths and getting all the proper facts that many others may find useful and interesting.

This should be a fun and long discussion/debate! :thumbsup:

(I know there's some grammatical errors, mods can fix them!)

[DC5-S]

for synthetic i go every 8,000 km's, or one year.

[OTG-ZR2]

Personally I change it every 5000km, but I use dino oil and cheap filters.

Average commercial transport truck at my work goes from 20,000km to 60,000km on a oil change :damn:. Mind you the oil gets sampled and sent to a lab between changes.

[TOPEC]

this is going to be hard, as different engines/driving conditions require different weights of oil, different applications require different oil change intervals.

[slammer111]

Why is there debate? Just trust the manufacturers' recommendations.

It was a shock when our family went from domestic (5000km) to German (15000km). But hey, if the manual and the dealer both say it's good enough.. good enough for me. Their engineers aren't stupid. Neither are their lawyers.

Maybe I'm just being new school, but with all the improvements in oil technology over the years, that 5000km limit is simply obsolete if you're going synthetic imo. Sure you can change it more often if you want; companies like Quaker and Mobil and Castrol thank you for your business. :)

Same deal with the weights. Just go with whatever the service bulletins/manuals suggest. Why mess with it?

[satek]

Every 5000km with Mobil1 10w30 + oem filter

[Amaru]

Why is there debate? Just trust the manufacturers' recommendations.

Not if you own a BMW. At least, not if you want to keep it in running condition.

BMW recommends 25,000km oil changes... sure, it's probably fine after 25,000km, but do you really want to risk it? That's especially insane for people who only drive their BMW as a "summer" or "weekend" car. They could go 3-4 years between oil changes.

Strangely enough, BMW changed their oil change interval to 25,000km around the same time they began offering free maintenance on all of their vehicles...


(*Edit: I remember reading somewhere they have revised the recommended oil change interval. Even if this is true, the 25,000km recommended interval was in place for many years. This is why some anal people caution against buying used late-model BMW's that do not come with service records as they could have run 25,000km+ without an oil change).

[Shun Izaki]

supposedly the BMW thing is because they have 6-7L or something compared to the traditional japanese import having 4-5L, so it "lasts" longer", i remember someone with an e92 telling me the manual SAYS 15,000km.

I change mine every 8-10k (depending how hard i've been on it) with regular... not that I beat on it, she's my daily anyways... OE/OE replacement filters, whatever works and isn't that paper thin fram stuff...

Judging (and having seen tons of oil) my own oil, it's still quite clean as it comes out, so it's literally a gigantic waste to have to change it... 2x-3x/year for me.

Also use the regular pennzoil stuff... nice and thick.

[slammer111]

BMW recommends 25,000km oil changes... sure, it's probably fine after 25,000km, but do you really want to risk it? That's especially insane for people who only drive their BMW as a "summer" or "weekend" car. They could go 3-4 years between oil changes. I thought it was xx,xxx km OR 1 year, whichever one comes first. But with that said, synthetic oil doesn't just magically go bad. This ain't dino oil. Usually the oil takes a few months just to get from the lab/factory to the store shelf, then who knows how long it sits there or in some guy's garage before getting poured into an engine. It's kind of like food. Milk is the only food I can think of that actually goes bad on the expiry date. (yes, I eat expired food all the time, haven't died yet. :D)

MB increased their service intervals to 15,000 in 1998, then 20,000 in 2005. The funny part is that these changes happened without developing new engines. Not sure about other makers but MB only really changed the list of recommended oil, and in some cases, changed the material in the filter. There is much talk on the MB forums of people who increased their service interval simply by getting the "higher" grade of oil local and having the new filters (not available in North America) shipped in from funky places like South Africa.

I remember my SA at the dealer mentioning that the oil can actually easily go 25,000km+, but most of the customers are "old school" and couldn't handle the sudden jump, so they had to phase it in over the years. :lol I remember my dad freaking and driving down to the dealership, where the SA had to show him the official MB bulletin on paper.

[dark0821]

i think it depends on the car
on my corolla i do it generally every 5000KM ...
but on the 240
i was on it every 2500 to 3000KMs

was using royal purple for the longest time..and cheap CDN tire stuff for the corolla

[Shun Izaki]

i think it depends on the car
on my corolla i do it generally every 5000KM ...
but on the 240
i was on it every 2500 to 3000KMs

was using royal purple for the longest time..and cheap CDN tire stuff for the corolla

royal purple's so "thin" i'd think you'd be best off changing it within 2-3000km anyways XD

[Warp9Racing]

i change every 6k/3 months, mobil 1....
i've seen first hand what the lack of oil changes can do...engine sludge/noise/blown motors etc.

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

for synthetic i go every 8,000 km's, or one year.

would you do that if you drove hard during a certain period?

same thing for ppl who go to the track, they usually change out the oil after that.

I drove my car pretty hard recently, its only been 3000-3500km and im feeling bad already....feel like i need to change out the motul 8100 lol

[oldsnail]

6k/ mobil1-syntec 5w20 grade..
oil filter.. either OEM or NAPA.

[LiquidTurbo]

I made a post a long time ago I feel might be worth a repost. And yes, there is no debate. Let me dig it up:



The 5,000km oil change is an absolute myth, perpetuated by companies like Jiffy Lube. (How else are they going to make their money from you?)

Modern cars and modern oils can go much longer. Just as how car tech has improved since the 70s, so has oil technology. For example, many new cars are equipped with an oil life monitor, which recommend oil changes that are far longer than 5,000km.

It's hard to believe, but the color of the oil has nothing to do with its remaining life and additive package.

One way to check is to do a Used Oil Analysis. (Collect some on the next drain with the free kit you can order from their website), then send it to http://www.blackstone-labs.com.

You'll get a report like this, and you can determine the ideal oil interval for your car.


http://www.jeffgoji.org/D90803.jpg
Amsoil 10W30 - 16,000km. 04 Mazdaspeed MX5, 1.8 turbo


Need more proof? Check out this guy running Amsoil 0w30 with a bypass filter and prelube pump in his S2000. 30,726 miles on the oil! That almost 50,000km!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v711/Slalom44/9-08UOA.jpg


Things to look for when analysing the data.

-TBN # still exists.
-Oil viscosity are still within the specs as SAE has outlined.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/images/visc.jpg

So for oils like 5w30 or 10w30, 30 represents a range of 9.30-12.49 CsT or Centistokes.


Things to realize.
1. Oil color is NOT a good indication of Total Base Number (TBN), or oil life.

2. 5,000km oil change is unnecessary and is a waste of money and oil resources. (In MOST cases. If I drove an engine known for fuel dilution solely in the city, exclusively all short trips, say 1km each, then perhaps I would be a good candidate for 5k oil change interval) Another situation is perhaps if I drove a Mazdaspeed3, or GTI, where the engines have been know to shear the oil out of viscosity a little faster than other engines.

3. Oil change interval is heavily dependent on car and driving conditions. If you drive highway frequently you can extend your oil change intervals, because it takes roughly 15-20km for oil to reach full operating temperature. At this temp, you'll be able to burn off the fuel dilution.

Frequent short trips = shorter oil change interval.

By most standards, take an average Corolla or Civic. They can easily go 8,000km on regular conventional oil, even longer on a synthetic fluid.

Personally, I run 12,000km OCI in my RSX with a quality synthetic and sleep well at night. (Confirmed with some used oil analyses). I would have no problem extending out to 16,000km if I had to, the 4,000km is just a nice safety margin. In fact my last oil change I did had 17,000km. I drive 95% highway.

[shenmecar]

i change my oil around 7k with penzoil 5w30 syn with oem filter. My oil becomes quite dark after the 5k mark.
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[Wykydtron]

Having an older car/engine, I change every 5000ish with synthetic. It only costs me roughly $30 to do my oil change with synthetic so I would rather do it a little more often than needed to just be on the safe side and have peace of mind.

[LiquidTurbo]

Having an older car/engine, I change every 5000ish with synthetic. It only costs me roughly $30 to do my oil change with synthetic so I would rather do it a little more often than needed to just be on the safe side and have peace of mind.

It's tough to get over that psychological barrier. If you have an older car and changing every 5,000, you might as well use dino. Using synthetic for that little time you aren't receiving any of the benefits it can offer.

Might as well save a bit of money by switching to dino.

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

I made a post a long time ago I feel might be worth a repost. And yes, there is no debate. Let me dig it up:



The 5,000km oil change is an absolute myth, perpetuated by companies like Jiffy Lube. (How else are they going to make their money from you?)

Modern cars and modern oils can go much longer. Just as how car tech has improved since the 70s, so has oil technology. For example, many new cars are equipped with an oil life monitor, which recommend oil changes that are far longer than 5,000km.

It's hard to believe, but the color of the oil has nothing to do with its remaining life and additive package.

One way to check is to do a Used Oil Analysis. (Collect some on the next drain with the free kit you can order from their website), then send it to http://www.blackstone-labs.com.

You'll get a report like this, and you can determine the ideal oil interval for your car.


http://www.jeffgoji.org/D90803.jpg
Amsoil 10W30 - 16,000km. 04 Mazdaspeed MX5, 1.8 turbo


Need more proof? Check out this guy running Amsoil 0w30 with a bypass filter and prelube pump in his S2000. 30,726 miles on the oil! That almost 50,000km!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v711/Slalom44/9-08UOA.jpg


Things to look for when analysing the data.

-TBN # still exists.
-Oil viscosity are still within the specs as SAE has outlined.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/images/visc.jpg

So for oils like 5w30 or 10w30, 30 represents a range of 9.30-12.49 CsT or Centistokes.


Things to realize.
1. Oil color is NOT a good indication of Total Base Number (TBN), or oil life.

2. 5,000km oil change is unnecessary and is a waste of money and oil resources. (In MOST cases. If I drove an engine known for fuel dilution solely in the city, exclusively all short trips, say 1km each, then perhaps I would be a good candidate for 5k oil change interval) Another situation is perhaps if I drove a Mazdaspeed3, or GTI, where the engines have been know to shear the oil out of viscosity a little faster than other engines.

3. Oil change interval is heavily dependent on car and driving conditions. If you drive highway frequently you can extend your oil change intervals, because it takes roughly 15-20km for oil to reach full operating temperature. At this temp, you'll be able to burn off the fuel dilution.

Frequent short trips = shorter oil change interval.

By most standards, take an average Corolla or Civic. They can easily go 8,000km on regular conventional oil, even longer on a synthetic fluid.

Personally, I run 12,000km OCI in my RSX with a quality synthetic and sleep well at night. (Confirmed with some used oil analyses). I would have no problem extending out to 16,000km if I had to, the 4,000km is just a nice safety margin. In fact my last oil change I did had 17,000km. I drive 95% highway.

lol i remember that thread

u are like the king of lubricants
:haha::thumbsup:



PS

now if you semi race your car, stuck in traffic, or got a heavy foot...i would imaging you would finally say change it more frequently. FOr the s2k, with 50,000km until oil change i think that is absolutely crazy. first of all it redlines at 9000rpm, and Vtec engines are known to burn oil especially under heavy load or high rpm

[LiquidTurbo]

I thought I'd try and start something here since this is an automotive site. There isn't much debate on this site about oil and oil changes, whether people should use "this" weight and "that" weight or oil changes should be done every "5,000km" or "10,000km". I realized that even after years and decades of automotive discussions, different "words" and "recommendations" are still being thrown around and a lot of people are getting different(wrong) information. When I say a lot of people, I mean "enthusiast" , consumers and technicians/mechanics.

I would like to see what information and knowledge people have gathered about oil changes and the oils they use. Questions they have about it and using this thread as a way of throwing out the myths and getting all the proper facts that many others may find useful and interesting.

This should be a fun and long discussion/debate! :thumbsup:

(I know there's some grammatical errors, mods can fix them!)


There is no debate.

For 99% of people, just follow the manufacturer's recommendation or the Oil Life Monitor. They are written by tribologists (look that up) and engineers far smarter than you, who designed the engine. They understand what they are doing.

For enthusiasts, you can get the UOA's done by understanding the condition of the oil, you can make an informed decision about running a longer interval than the recommended. What? Doesn't that contradict what I just said with following the recommendations? Those recommendations are written to cover a wide range or circumstances and driving conditions which most people fall in. If you understand where you stand in terms of driving conditions, oil selection, you can override their recommendation with something you know they would have personally recommended for your style of driving.

If I had to guess, most car manufacturers would love to write different oil change intervals, perhaps even different viscosities for different situations (ie, if your S2000 goes on track all the time), but people just simply can't handle that.

Shit, it's tough enough just to get people to change their oil. I've talked to some women that are like "WTF you need to do oil change? I never knew that?".. BRAND NEW CARS they have. Another reason I would never buy "lady-driven" :).

[LiquidTurbo]

PS

now if you semi race your car, stuck in traffic, or got a heavy foot...i would imaging you would finally say change it more frequently. FOr the s2k, with 50,000km until oil change i think that is absolutely crazy. first of all it redlines at 9000rpm, and Vtec engines are known to burn oil especially under heavy load or high rpm

As crazy as it sounds.. it the oil manages to

1. Stay in the correct viscosity range and not shear out of grade
2. TBN / TAN numbers stay above zero (Base number)
3. Oil levels are fine
4. Insoluble filtration is sufficient, (would involve changing filters sooner than oil
5. Burnt off oil is topped off


What's the problem? But yes, I agree with you. Different situations warrant different oil 'prescriptions'. For the S2K owner that had the bypass system installed, clearly the combo is working well for him. He probably does exclusively highway.

[taylor192]

Not if you own a BMW. At least, not if you want to keep it in running condition.

BMW recommends 25,000km oil changes... sure, it's probably fine after 25,000km, but do you really want to risk it? That's especially insane for people who only drive their BMW as a "summer" or "weekend" car. They could go 3-4 years between oil changes.
Mercedes recommends 1yr or 15000 kms, whichever comes first.

Does BMW give the same advice? It seems you don't even know what the current recommended BMW interval is, and you're just bitchin to bitch.

[taylor192]

Having an older car/engine, I change every 5000ish with synthetic. It only costs me roughly $30 to do my oil change with synthetic so I would rather do it a little more often than needed to just be on the safe side and have peace of mind.

If you really wanted to be on the safe side, you'd get your oil tested for $30 rather than throw away $30 changing oil when you might not need to.

[skylinergtr]

my jeep is currently getting mopar 15w-40, i'm going to switch back to 5w-30 in my next change. Because its an older car with some mileage on it. I make the intervals every 3000-4000kms. My BMW gets Lubro Moly 5w-40 Synthetic. When driven regularly i make my oil change intervals every 10,000kms. I have opened the valve cover, rebuilt the engine, opened the oil pan, and it looks very very clean. It also does not consume any oil. This is why i like this oil.

[LiquidTurbo]

Mercedes recommends 1yr or 15000 kms, whichever comes first.

Does BMW give the same advice? It seems you don't even know what the current recommended BMW interval is, and you're just bitchin to bitch.

Eurocars often have special oil requirements, where the oils have passed certifications not required by other manufacturers..

If I recall correctly newer BMWs need to use an ACEA A3/B4 oil maybe need C3 as well. It will need either a LL01 or LL04 rating;he needs to look in the owner's manual.

Another example is the RDX with is boosted engine. The requirements are synthetic that passes the HTO-06 deposit spec. Would be a bad idea not to follow that.

[LiquidTurbo]

Also use the regular pennzoil stuff... nice and thick.

royal purple's so "thin" i'd think you'd be best off changing it within 2-3000km anyways XD

No offense but that's incorrect.

As per manufacturer's specs:

Royal Purple 5w30
Visc @ 40C = 64.8 cST
Visc @ 100C = 10.7 cST

Pennzoil Platinum 5w30
Visc @ 40C = 57.5 cST
Visc @ 100C = 10.3 cST

In reality the Royal Purple is actually thicker in both room temp and at operating temperature...:thumbsup:
But the difference is so small, it doesn't really matter; they're essentially the same. This is unlike German Castrol 0w30, where it's on the higher end of the 30 scale (I think around 13 cST when cold)

Also, thinner oils doesn't mean you are receiving inadequate protection. A lot of new cars spec 0w20 now.

PS. I use PP 5w30 in my RSX. Great oil, cheap, stellar UOAs. (For my application)

[unit]

i always hear people say 8-10k on synthetic, but my bmw oil monitor usually goes into the yellow zone around 15k. i just follow that.

[Great68]

Pennzoil platinum 5w30 in my Mazda. Change every 6000kms, which works out to every 4 months of driving. Three oil changes a year is perfectly reasonable.

[Phil@rise]

Personally I don't care about manufacturers recommendations I change mine and recommend others to do so every 5000km's synthetic or petroleum based. Why? Its cheap insurance and if something internal is failing would you rather find out now or 3000+ km's later when it could be to late.

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

^

werd

i rather spend $50 bux or so and sleep better at night, or the next time i redline my car

[tofu1413]

^

werd

i rather spend $50 bux or so and sleep better at night, or the next time i redline my car

+1


not to mention checking the oil level each time i get gas too. the more i vtak, the more often i change my oil.

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

i like vtak

[underscore]

jebus, I've just been changing my oil when it looks dirty (I leak/burn a bit though so it gets topped up fairly frequently) which is probably around 5k or so. My g/f felt bad about how dirty she let the oil in her car get, but after reading this now I know we should both be able to go longer. I think I'll do some of those tests soon.

Here's my question: I was told to avoid Quaker State and Penzoil because they have wax in them, which can build up in the engine (oil pump intake etc). Truth or fiction?

[tofu1413]

jebus, I've just been changing my oil when it looks dirty (I leak/burn a bit though so it gets topped up fairly frequently) which is probably around 5k or so. My g/f felt bad about how dirty she let the oil in her car get, but after reading this now I know we should both be able to go longer. I think I'll do some of those tests soon.

Here's my question: I was told to avoid Quaker State and Penzoil because they have wax in them, which can build up in the engine (oil pump intake etc). Truth or fiction?

half truth half fiction.

it was the old pennzoil from way back that causes it. Pennzoil/ Quaker have some pretty decent stuff for the money.

[LiquidTurbo]

jebus, I've just been changing my oil when it looks dirty (I leak/burn a bit though so it gets topped up fairly frequently) which is probably around 5k or so. My g/f felt bad about how dirty she let the oil in her car get, but after reading this now I know we should both be able to go longer. I think I'll do some of those tests soon.

Here's my question: I was told to avoid Quaker State and Penzoil because they have wax in them, which can build up in the engine (oil pump intake etc). Truth or fiction?

Absolute fiction. God damn it. It's the year 2010 and people still say there's wax in Pennzoil? A lot of oils are made with paraffainic base stock. People just assumed that meant paraffin wax :D. In fact, they are less likely to form sludge than naphthenic-based crude oils.

The myth has been around for decades. In the 50s when information wasn't so freely passed, a mechanic would see an engine sludged up. What oil was used? Probably Pennzoil, because it was the most widely used oil at the time. Therefore Pennzoil is to blame!

[LiquidTurbo]

Personally I don't care about manufacturers recommendations I change mine and recommend others to do so every 5000km's synthetic or petroleum based. Why? Its cheap insurance and if something internal is failing would you rather find out now or 3000+ km's later when it could be to late.

Sure. I disagree with your logic though. There was a place in time where a 5,000km oil change was justified. The dirty days if carburetion, shitty tolerancing, and shitty oil made from Group I basestocks.

For example take the Honda B series engines which recommended valve adjustments every 50,000km. With new K engines, they aren't needed till 176,000km.

Technology progresses, and so does oil tech. It's just hard for people to get over the psychological barrier.

As for the idea that it's cheap insurance, do you change your underwear 3x a day? Get valve adjustments every 10,000km? Change brake pads every 10,000km? Put in 'fuel injector cleaner' in every tank of gas?

Simply not necessary in today's age. To each their own, but personally it's just pissing away money unnecessarily.

Lubrication related failures are quite rare too, when the recommendations are followed.

[tofu1413]

Lubrication related failures are quite rare.

i heard horror stories of RDX'es blowing up using the wrong synthetic oil..

same goes for S2000's..? i think the timing chain tensioner or something goes wack when someone uses mobile 1...??

[LiquidTurbo]

jebus, I've just been changing my oil when it looks dirty (I leak/burn a bit though so it gets topped up fairly frequently) which is probably around 5k or so. My g/f felt bad about how dirty she let the oil in her car get, but after reading this now I know we should both be able to go longer. I think I'll do some of those tests soon.

Here's my question: I was told to avoid Quaker State and Penzoil because they have wax in them, which can build up in the engine (oil pump intake etc). Truth or fiction?

Skip to 1:10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeLV9v5vvzw

[LiquidTurbo]

i heard horror stories of RDX'es blowing up using the wrong synthetic oil..

same goes for S2000's..? i think the timing chain tensioner or something goes wack when someone uses mobile 1...??

Link me to the RDX stories.. I'm actually interested. But again, the failure was because of user being idiot and using oil that didn't meet HTO-06 standard. Pretty idiotic if you ask me, especially since M1 is written right on the engine cap. Only 4 oils that I know of meet this spec, M1 5w30, PP 5w30, Amsoil 0w30 SSO, and Kendall 5w30.

As for the S2K TCT issue, is that really oil related? S2k owners were getting funny noises because slack in the chain was causing improper contact with the various chain guides/tensioners and upper timing gear. Oil problem or timing chain system design problem?

I highly doubt that the BRAND of oil had anything to do with it.. Ie if M1 wasn't used, it wouldn't happen.

M1 is just extremely popular with S2K users, so its not surprising the blame would be pinned onto them. Correlation doesn't = causation of course. A friend of mine w/ an S2k used Amsoil (which is actually a full synthetic btw), and still had TCT issues.

PS. It's Mobil1, not Mobile1.:thumbsup:

[Meowjin]

Why is the guy trying to talk me out of putting synthetic in my car. This is mr lube btw
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[Meowjin]

Wait I'm retarded. My tl doesn't need synthetic last service was 5-20 non synth
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[LiquidTurbo]

Why is the guy trying to talk me out of putting synthetic in my car. This is mr lube btw
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

Could be a few reasons,

-So you see him more often and he makes more $$ out of you.
-Bulk 5w30 dino oil used in speedy lube shops are VERY cheap. Better profit margin for him.

[tofu1413]

Link me to the RDX stories.. I'm actually interested. But again, the failure was because of user being idiot and using oil that didn't meet HTO-06 standard. Pretty idiotic if you ask me, especially since M1 is written right on the engine cap. Only 4 oils that I know of meet this spec, M1 5w30, PP 5w30, Amsoil 0w30 SSO, and Kendall 5w30.

As for the S2K TCT issue, is that really oil related? S2k owners were getting funny noises because slack in the chain was causing improper contact with the various chain guides/tensioners and upper timing gear. Oil problem or timing chain system design problem?

I highly doubt that the BRAND of oil had anything to do with it.. Ie if M1 wasn't used, it wouldn't happen.

M1 is just extremely popular with S2K users, so its not surprising the blame would be pinned onto them. Correlation doesn't = causation of course. A friend of mine w/ an S2k used Amsoil (which is actually a full synthetic btw), and still had TCT issues.

PS. It's Mobil1, not Mobile1.:thumbsup:


my bad on the spelling.

i remember back in my mr lube days, i heard someguy in the north van store didnt put the specified mobil 1 5w30 in it or w/e and the RDX motor ended up grenading...

majin// what do you drive?

[Meowjin]

08 tl. I got mobil 1 synth 520 put in
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[Phil@rise]

"Sure. I disagree with your logic though. There was a place in time where a 5,000km oil change was justified. The dirty days if carburetion, shitty tolerancing, and shitty oil made from Group I basestocks"

It's not just a case of carburation or shitty tolerances. (tolerancing isn't a word FYI). Changing your oil frequently and inspecting whats comes out with it or suspended in it is just cheap insurance against premature engine failure.
Sometimes parts go bad. And the best way to find out if that's the case is regular inspection and that includes inspecting your oil and filter. This is especially true if you abuse your motor and spinning up into VTech isn't the only form of abuse that warrants frequent oil changes and inspection.

[LiquidTurbo]

It's not just a case of carburation or shitty tolerances. (tolerancing isn't a word FYI). Changing your oil frequently and inspecting whats comes out with it or suspended in it is just cheap insurance against premature engine failure.
Sometimes parts go bad. And the best way to find out if that's the case is regular inspection and that includes inspecting your oil and filter. This is especially true if you abuse your motor and spinning up into VTech isn't the only form of abuse that warrants frequent oil changes and inspection.

First of all, Tolerancing is most definitely a word. Just because spellcheck says no, doesn't mean it's not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_dimensioning_and_tolerancing

Second, the only way to check the condition of oil is to perform a Used Oil Analysis, not by looking at it. I bet if you did one, the analysis will say your oil will have plenty of life left at 5,000km.

Lastly, VTech is not a word, it's a brand of phone :lol

[tofu1413]

08 tl. I got mobil 1 synth 520 put in
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i dont see why nott :thumbsup:


inspecting the car more often is often a good insurance of mechanical failures.

[Phil@rise]

"Second, the only way to check the condition of oil is to perform a Used Oil Analysis, not by looking at it. I bet if you did one, the analysis will say your oil will have plenty of life left at 5,000km."


Ohh jeeze just cus the oil has plenty of life left in it at 5000km's of use doesn't mean the motor does.
That's the point I'm trying to make.
When doing a visual inspection of the oil and filter you are looking for contaminants indicative of engine wear that could lead to premature failure obviously the oil still has a usable service life at 5000km's.
So do an oil change at 5000km intervals and catch that cam wearing out early before it takes out the whole motor cus you were a lazy cheap dumbass and went 10000km's between oil changes.
Get the point I'm trying to make.

[LiquidTurbo]

"Second, the only way to check the condition of oil is to perform a Used Oil Analysis, not by looking at it. I bet if you did one, the analysis will say your oil will have plenty of life left at 5,000km."


Ohh jeeze just cus the oil has plenty of life left in it at 5000km's of use doesn't mean the motor does.
That's the point I'm trying to make.
When doing a visual inspection of the oil and filter you are looking for contaminants indicative of engine wear that could lead to premature failure obviously the oil still has a usable service life at 5000km's.
So do an oil change at 5000km intervals and catch that cam wearing out early before it takes out the whole motor cus you were a lazy cheap dumbass and went 10000km's between oil changes.
Get the point I'm trying to make.

You might think I'm trolling you but I'm actually having a serious discussion.

If the oil has plenty of usable life at 5,000km (thus doing it's job) why would the cam be wearing out early to the point of seeing chunks of cam in the oil?



Wear metals are on the order of microns, when the oil is doing it's job, which a Used Oil Analyses can check. Ie, checking Iron levels in parts per million. You can't use your eyes to see this.

If you are concerned about inspecting the cam's in the car the most effective way is to simply open up the head and look at them.


Here's some valvegear photos of a K20A3 head at 176,000km running 12,000km intervals with conventional non-synthetic oil. (Halvoline 5w20). No issues what so ever. Spotless engine.

The owner determined this oil interval via UOA he performed, and he's found a combination and interval that's been working well for him. Looks like it could serve him another 176,000km easily.

Here's the UOA data.
http://i46.tinypic.com/2i07pzp.jpg


Valve gear pics:
http://i26.tinypic.com/2z6v5me.jpg

http://i25.tinypic.com/fk1gdu.jpg

http://i30.tinypic.com/fthtmo.jpg

http://i25.tinypic.com/2qa8orn.jpg

The point you were trying to make is essentially invalid.

If you love your car, you're better off doing a UOA and interpreting the results, rather than spending more money changing the oil unnecessarily. Physically looking at the oil is a terrible way of inspecting the engine. In fact, it doesn't really tell you anything.

[Phil@rise]

Ohhh my god not trolling my ass.

BECAUSE THERE MAY BE A FAULTY PART I've seen it first hand on many occasions and can point you in the direction of many other engine builders who also have.

That's why its called PREVENTATIVE MAINTENANCE and if you know what your looking for you can determine if something is going amiss by looking at your oil and inspecting the filter material in your filter and you don't need a microscope to do so, common sense and experience will do just fine.
Again its cheap insurance about 40 bucks every few months. That aint so bad compared to the extreme alternative.

Nice cam pics but the cam was just an example of many engine components that can wear out prematurely for many reasons and take out the rest of the motor if left undetected till the bitter end.

[Kaolinite]

motul every 5km

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

smart man

[Eff-1]

If you look at the S2000, Honda is all over the map with respect to the maintenance schedule.

Owner's manual says for normal conditions, change it every 12,000km or 12 months.

For severe conditions, owner's manual says change it every 6,000km or six months.

But if you go to honda.ca and choose S2000, it says change it every 6,000km or three months (both normal and severe).

For me I just change it every six months. Truth is I never end up reaching the max kms before the max time. Regular oil is fine for me (never bought synthetic oil for any of my cars, and probably never will unless its required).

[taylor192]

Ohhh my god not trolling my ass.

BECAUSE THERE MAY BE A FAULTY PART I've seen it first hand on many occasions and can point you in the direction of many other engine builders who also have.

That's why its called PREVENTATIVE MAINTENANCE and if you know what your looking for you can determine if something is going amiss by looking at your oil and inspecting the filter material in your filter and you don't need a microscope to do so, common sense and experience will do just fine.
Again its cheap insurance about 40 bucks every few months. That aint so bad compared to the extreme alternative.

Nice cam pics but the cam was just an example of many engine components that can wear out prematurely for many reasons and take out the rest of the motor if left undetected till the bitter end.

Dude, you're making your company look very amateur.

Yes you can do an oil change for $40 and check it for visible substances, or you can siphon off 250 ml and send it for oil analysis for $30 and get a printout of non-visible substances too.

The oil analysis report is very valuable, knowing that elevated levels of certain metals/chemicals/moisture/... can identify engine problems earlier than your simple visible check.

Please do not call Liquid Turbo a troll. He's provided techniques used by commercial vehicles, racing teams, ... that is available to the public for less than the price of an oil change. Meanwhile you're sticking to outdated garage mechanic tips that waste $$$ and give people false sense of security.

[LiquidTurbo]

motul every 5km

Shit, must be annoying to change oil everyday!:haha:

[tofu1413]

Shit, must be annoying to change oil everyday!:haha:

must be a 4G63 :p

[LiquidTurbo]

If you look at the S2000, Honda is all over the map with respect to the maintenance schedule.

Owner's manual says for normal conditions, change it every 12,000km or 12 months.

For severe conditions, owner's manual says change it every 6,000km or six months.

But if you go to honda.ca and choose S2000, it says change it every 6,000km or three months (both normal and severe).

For me I just change it every six months. Truth is I never end up reaching the max kms before the max time. Regular oil is fine for me (never bought synthetic oil for any of my cars, and probably never will unless its required).

Honda has decided that due to most of the climate of Canada, that Canada is considered completely 'severe' condition driving. The owner's manual is written for a North American audience, if you look closely, you'll see a note in the owner's manual saying that all of Canada is considered severe.

Vancouver's weather is very unlike most the rest of Canada.

[StealthFighter]

just use any oil that's manufacturer's spec and has a SM rating. then run to the oil change intervals in the manual. doing an used oil analysis will provided the best way to tell if you should run shorter or longer OCI.

though i like using a 0w oil for better pour point at cold starts. even though the manufacturer recommends a 5w-30. better fuel economy, less engine wear, less strain on alternator and battery.

for a filter, just use OEM, purolator pureone, bosch premium, napa gold, wix.

i would avoid using fram

http://www.knizefamily.net/minimopar/oilfilters/reference.html

[LiquidTurbo]

just use any oil that's manufacturer's spec and has a SM rating. then run to the oil change intervals in the manual. doing an used oil analysis will provided the best way to tell if you should run shorter or longer OCI.

though i like using a 0w oil for better pour point at cold starts. even though the manufacturer recommends a 5w-30. better fuel economy, less engine wear, less strain on alternator and battery.

for a filter, just use OEM, purolator pureone, bosch premium, napa gold, wix.

i would avoid using fram

http://www.knizefamily.net/minimopar/oilfilters/reference.html

Silly Fram with their cardboard endcaps. Still, hard to prove that doesn't work well, but most people want the reassurance of steel. After all, the classic blue Honda OEM filter was once made by Toyo Roki, is now made by Honeywell, a division of, you guessed it, Fram, and there are millions of Hondas running with them.

My dad's old 83 Honda Civic had over 400,000km using nothing but the dreaded Orange Frams + Castrol GTX conventional (because it was the cheapest) for its entire life until it was sold to the guy in the neighbourhood. I still see him zipping around in it occasionally.

That being said, I think there are better alternatives.

What engine do you have? What 0w30 you use? M1 AFE?

[Eff-1]

Honda has decided that due to most of the climate of Canada, that Canada is considered completely 'severe' condition driving. The owner's manual is written for a North American audience, if you look closely, you'll see a note in the owner's manual saying that all of Canada is considered severe.

Vancouver's weather is very unlike most the rest of Canada.

Yes i'm aware that most manufacturers consider Canada as "severe". Still doesn't change the fact that honda.ca says one thing while the owner's manual says different.

[LiquidTurbo]

Yes i'm aware that most manufacturers consider Canada as "severe". Still doesn't change the fact that honda.ca says one thing while the owner's manual says different.

You missed my point. If you read the owner's manual again it says "Use Severe Guide in Canada."

Therefore it's consistent with honda.ca's recommendations.

[Eff-1]

You missed my point. If you read the owner's manual again it says "Use Severe Guide in Canada."

Therefore it's consistent with honda.ca's recommendations.

I didn't miss any point.

Read my post again.

Owner's manual says for normal conditions, change it every 12,000km or 12 months.

For severe conditions, owner's manual says change it every 6,000km or six months.

But if you go to honda.ca and choose S2000, it says change it every 6,000km or three months (both normal and severe).

[LiquidTurbo]

I didn't miss any point.

Read my post again.

Owner's manual says for normal conditions, change it every 12,000km or 12 months.

For severe conditions, owner's manual says change it every 6,000km or six months.

But if you go to honda.ca and choose S2000, it says change it every 6,000km or three months (both normal and severe).

If the owner's manual lists that Canada is considered severe, then it's recommending 6,000km changes 'no exceptions'.

Honda is saying "there are no Normal conditions in Canada". :thumbsup: Hence the website defaulting to 6,000km for all S2Ks in Canada. But yes, why are we arguing semantics? We agree that 6 month 6,000km OCI is good.

Don't the newer S2Ks have oil minders? When do they go off?

[Eff-1]

If the owner's manual lists that Canada is considered severe, then it's recommending 6,000km changes 'no exceptions'.

Honda is saying "there are no Normal conditions in Canada". :thumbsup: Hence the website defaulting to 6,000km for all S2Ks in Canada. But yes, why are we arguing semantics? We agree that 6 month 6,000km OCI is good.

Don't the newer S2Ks have oil minders? When do they go off?

There's no argument. All I was saying is there is inconsistency on when the recommended oil change is, depending on what source you use. I realize that 6000 represents severe conditions (i.e. Canada). But even so:

For severe conditions, owner's manual says change it every 6,000km or six months.

But if you go to honda.ca and choose S2000, it says change it every 6,000km or three months (both normal and severe).

06 and up had the "Maintenance Minder". Mine is an 05, so I'm not sure.

Regardless, I've been sticking with changing oil every six months. I'm only driving around 10,000 kms per year. I'm not worried.

[LiquidTurbo]

^
Ahhhh gotcha. I didn't see the 3 month 6 month ! My bad!:D

6 month 6,000km works just fine, especially if you take it to the highway occasionally. Unlike Engine temp, Oil takes 15km-20km to fully warm up and burn off any fuel dilution. 3 month OCI doesn't make much sense either, since a lot of people store their S2000s in the winter.

[Eff-1]

^
Ahhhh gotcha. I didn't see the 3 month 6 month ! My bad!:D


All good.

[Noizz]

Dude, you're making your company look very amateur.

Please do not call Liquid Turbo a troll. He's provided techniques used by commercial vehicles, racing teams, ... that is available to the public for less than the price of an oil change. Meanwhile you're sticking to outdated garage mechanic tips that waste $$$ and give people false sense of security.

+1, if there is a problem with you're engine, it will show in the UOA. This might be stretching it, but to put it into another perspective: think about an ectomorphic person (cannot gain weight, lacking fat) who eats a lot of fast foods. Sure he may physically look healthy because he is still slender, but sampling his blood and analyzing it could actually determine that he has high cholesterol, thus unhealthy.

Doctors don't test whether you have AIDS or HIV by looking at you. They run blood tests, hence the reason why LiquidTurbo suggested getting your used oil tested & analyzed so you can get reliable data as well as a comparison of what the ppm levels should be at from past data. How would u assess whether there was antifreeze or too much fuel in the oil by looking at the filter material? :confused: And whether or not those levels are acceptable or not for an engine with XXXXX amount of km?

[TOPEC]

Dude, you're making your company look very amateur.

Yes you can do an oil change for $40 and check it for visible substances, or you can siphon off 250 ml and send it for oil analysis for $30 and get a printout of non-visible substances too.

The oil analysis report is very valuable, knowing that elevated levels of certain metals/chemicals/moisture/... can identify engine problems earlier than your simple visible check.

Please do not call Liquid Turbo a troll. He's provided techniques used by commercial vehicles, racing teams, ... that is available to the public for less than the price of an oil change. Meanwhile you're sticking to outdated garage mechanic tips that waste $$$ and give people false sense of security.

that is the WHOLE POINT of doing used oil analysis, knowing what is in ur oil which ur eyes cannot see. by the time u see metal particles in ur oil, it is already too late switch up to another brand and damage had occurred.

[Harvey Specter]

If you look at the S2000, Honda is all over the map with respect to the maintenance schedule.

Owner's manual says for normal conditions, change it every 12,000km or 12 months.

For severe conditions, owner's manual says change it every 6,000km or six months.

But if you go to honda.ca and choose S2000, it says change it every 6,000km or three months (both normal and severe).

For me I just change it every six months. Truth is I never end up reaching the max kms before the max time. Regular oil is fine for me (never bought synthetic oil for any of my cars, and probably never will unless its required).


Funny you mention this. When I leased my BMW E92 I was told not to worry about changing the oil until I hit 15,000 - 20,000 and only do it when the on board computer tells me to. When I got my Audi A5, the first oil change is suppose to happen at 6,000. I even asked my friend at BMW if it's a smart idea to not change the oil say at 5,000. He told me not to waste my money because it was a leased car and let BMW worry about it. He also said some people don't get the oil changed until they hit 20,000 km's.

[iam_dan]

i remember being told for the average driver, you can change your oil every 10,000-14,000kms, and that synthetic isnt necessary for these numbers either.

ive read all the posts thus far, and im concluding that this is probably fairly accurate?
how about the synthetic vs non?

[LiquidTurbo]

Funny you mention this. When I leased my BMW E92 I was told not to worry about changing the oil until I hit 15,000 - 20,000 and only do it when the on board computer tells me to. When I got my Audi A5, the first oil change is suppose to happen at 6,000. I even asked my friend at BMW if it's a smart idea to not change the oil say at 5,000. He told me not to waste my money because it was a leased car and let BMW worry about it. He also said some people don't get the oil changed until they hit 20,000 km's.

If you were leasing a BMW, then follow their suggestions with nothing to worry about. After all, if anything happens, it's their responsibility.

If you were owning a BMW, that's an entirely different beast. The folks at Blackstone tend to recommend not to ride out BMW's recommendations fully based on the UOA's that they've seen.

They only way is to do one then judge the interval that works best. I wonder why BMW stretched to such lengths. Is it perhaps to upkeep a perception of "luxury, less maintenance", or reduce maintenance costs for themselves, (since BMW offers the free scheduled maintenance program)?

PS: If anyone wants to look up a database of UOAs, head on over to www.bobistheoilguy.com.




This dude didn't change oil on his 3 series for 100,000km. :facepalm:


http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/2382/dsc00851m.jpg

http://www.tomsandersonphotography.com/VANOS/_MG_2318.jpg

http://www.tomsandersonphotography.com/VANOS/_MG_2317.jpg

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1261/dsc00860rvk.jpg

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/9883/dsc00858w.jpg

http://www.tomsandersonphotography.com/VANOS/_MG_2319.jpg

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/2046/dsc00861x.jpg

http://www.tomsandersonphotography.com/VANOS/_MG_2321.jpg

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/86/dsc00862twg.jpg

http://www.tomsandersonphotography.com/VANOS/_MG_2324.jpg

[LiquidTurbo]

i remember being told for the average driver, you can change your oil every 10,000-14,000kms, and that synthetic isnt necessary for these numbers either.

ive read all the posts thus far, and im concluding that this is probably fairly accurate?
how about the synthetic vs non?

What car do you have and what kind of driving do you do?

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

motul every 5km

LOl u mean every 5000km
:haha:

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

man that 3 series is really fucked, needs a rebuild or sth...jesus its like someone shoved mud into his engine

[taylor192]

man that 3 series is really fucked, needs a rebuild or sth...jesus its like someone shoved mud into his engine

I'll see if I can find the thread, yet I think they actually got it going with a lot of cleaning a few flushes and the owner reporting back weeks later it was still running.

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

^

simply amazing tho

100,000km without an oil change


WOW! not even the world's best oil can last that long

[satek]

BMW engines are bulletproof.

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

i guess so


in that case dont change oil than, waste of money
:thumbsup:

[unit]

nice thread :hat:

[the_law82]

Great thread.

A lot of talk about about oil and oil analysis, but what about the oil filter? Should that be changed the same time as the oil? More or less frequently?

I assume that if the oil analysis comes out good that the filter is still in good condition and doesn't need to be changed until the oil is changed?

The reason I ask is that for my 1992 MR2 Turbo, the manual lists different intervals for the oil and filter:

Severe:

Oil - 4500kms or 3 months
Filter - 8000kms or 6 months


Normal:

Oil - 8000kms or 6 months
Filter - 16000kms or 12 months

[LiquidTurbo]

Great thread.

A lot of talk about about oil and oil analysis, but what about the oil filter? Should that be changed the same time as the oil? More or less frequently?

I assume that if the oil analysis comes out good that the filter is still in good condition and doesn't need to be changed until the oil is changed?

The reason I ask is that for my 1992 MR2 Turbo, the manual lists different intervals for the oil and filter:

Severe:

Oil - 4500kms or 3 months
Filter - 8000kms or 6 months


Normal:

Oil - 8000kms or 6 months
Filter - 16000kms or 12 months


Hard question to answer since the answer differs for different cars, different engine designs, and driving habits.

The job of the filter is to trap insoluables (particles that can't be dissolved into the oil by the detergent additives), the UOA can measure this in %. The measure should be ideally below 0.5%. If the UOA shows above this, good idea is to change it out earlier.

If you're willing to get your hands dirty, you can also cut the oil filter open to examine the filtration media.. any signs of deformation, and you might want to change it a bit earlier.

Perhaps you can stretch the oil to change it the same time as your filter. Again, the only way to really know if you can do that is to do a UOA. Keep in mind the job of the filter is not to 'clean' the oil, or change its color, but rather to trap particles that are large enough to cause damage if circulated. Since it's messy to change the oil and you're already working on the engine, it doesn't take much effort to change the filter as well.

[Phil@rise]

Dude, you're making your company look very amateur.

Yes you can do an oil change for $40 and check it for visible substances, or you can siphon off 250 ml and send it for oil analysis for $30 and get a printout of non-visible substances too.

The oil analysis report is very valuable, knowing that elevated levels of certain metals/chemicals/moisture/... can identify engine problems earlier than your simple visible check.

Please do not call Liquid Turbo a troll. He's provided techniques used by commercial vehicles, racing teams, ... that is available to the public for less than the price of an oil change. Meanwhile you're sticking to outdated garage mechanic tips that waste $$$ and give people false sense of security.
Again the point I'm attempting to make here is that the oil isn't gonna be bad after 5000km's but its cheap insurance to change it by then. I've got clients that take it even further by doing so every 3000km's and they run synthetic. By doing a visual inspection of your oil and filter at those intervals can point out EXTREME wear conditions that can lead to engine failure. That is why I recommend every 5000km's and that is why most mechanics and engine builders I deal with suggest the same.
Now an engine oil analysis will point out many things contributing to regular wear and age but to point extreme wear conditions its not needed.
A most recent example of failure I diagnosed was in a boat. The motor had approx 800 hours of use on it and ran full synthetic. The PO of the boat had changed his oil every 100 hours, in my books thats not often enough for a boat they have slow going motors that carbon foul quick. I suggested 50-75 hours. His boat began to run rough on a recent outing so he called me to come down and find out why. I pulled the valve covers off and found the exhaust valve on cylinder seven wasn't opening all the way and also cylinder number four the intake wasn't opening all the way. His cam was fucked. I asked him when he changed his oil last and inspected it, his response just over 100 hours ago. When I drained the oil and pulled the filter it was full of visible metallic debris. The cam took out his bearings rod and mains. $12000 later his motor was rebuilt and reinstalled in the boat. This would have been avoided if he changed his oil more frequently and before the visible debris suspended in his oil took everything else out. If he changed his oil on the intervals recommended then his repair bill would have been limited to a faulty camshaft replacement. A $50 (his case) oil change could have saved him $10000 the other $2000 would have been for the cam (Its a 40 Grenfell foot boat and no engine repair is cheap on a motor buried below deck).
Is my point clear now? I do have more circumstances like this I've encountered in my 15 years in this business.



I will admit tho on one of my trucks it sees an oil change every few years and unknown mileage I just top up as needed but if she goes its just an excuse to build myself a sweet motor for it

[bloodmack]

For me, I try to do my oil changes every 30-45days. This oil change coming up I'll be doing a flush because I had to take the valve cover off and reseal it and theres some pretty dirty oil :(.

[taylor192]

Again the point I'm attempting to make here is that the oil isn't gonna be bad after 5000km's but its cheap insurance to change it by then. I've got clients that take it even further by doing so every 3000km's and they run synthetic.
The point you're making is that you believe in false sense of security.

By doing a visual inspection of your oil and filter at those intervals can point out EXTREME wear conditions that can lead to engine failure. That is why I recommend every 5000km's and that is why most mechanics and engine builders I deal with suggest the same. Now an engine oil analysis will point out many things contributing to regular wear and age but to point extreme wear conditions its not needed.
By the time those EXTREME wear indicators are present, the damage is done and only indicate something needs to be fixed. The UOA can give indicators before it gets to this point.

A most recent example of failure I diagnosed was in a boat. The motor had approx 800 hours of use on it and ran full synthetic. The PO of the boat had changed his oil every 100 hours, in my books thats not often enough for a boat they have slow going motors that carbon foul quick. I suggested 50-75 hours. His boat began to run rough on a recent outing so he called me to come down and find out why. I pulled the valve covers off and found the exhaust valve on cylinder seven wasn't opening all the way and also cylinder number four the intake wasn't opening all the way. His cam was fucked. I asked him when he changed his oil last and inspected it, his response just over 100 hours ago. When I drained the oil and pulled the filter it was full of visible metallic debris. The cam took out his bearings rod and mains. $12000 later his motor was rebuilt and reinstalled in the boat. This would have been avoided if he changed his oil more frequently and before the visible debris suspended in his oil took everything else out. If he changed his oil on the intervals recommended then his repair bill would have been limited to a faulty camshaft replacement. A $50 (his case) oil change could have saved him $10000 the other $2000 would have been for the cam (Its a 40 Grenfell foot boat and no engine repair is cheap on a motor buried below deck).
That's a nice story, yet facts are better than stories.

If this owner has pulled a sample at 50 hrs and had a UOA done, he would've been saved too. Plus he might have caught high metal content before there were visible metal particles in the oil. Then he wouldn't be doing a $2000 repair with fingers crossed nothing else was damaged from the visible metal.

Is my point clear now? I do have more circumstances like this I've encountered in my 15 years in this business.
Crystal clear. You support analyzing oil before there is a problem. Why you don't support UOA is still beyond the rest of us.

[taylor192]

Hard question to answer since the answer differs for different cars, different engine designs, and driving habits.

and very different types of oil filters. Mercedes has 2 types: fleece and paper. The fleece filters will last a long time, while the paper filters might not even make 15K miles before breaking down and getting sucked into the engine.

[Phil@rise]

Jeeze I'm starting to feel ignorant for trying to get through to the ignorant

That wasn't a story it was personal experience.
Aaaaand I'm done.

[taylor192]

Jeeze I'm starting to feel ignorant for trying to get through to the ignorant

That wasn't a story it was personal experience.
Aaaaand I'm done.
Lets hope so.

This thread is about dispelling common myths, not pointing out isolated EXTREME cases. UOA is cheap, easy and gives far more info than a visible inspection. Ignorance is not doing a UOA.

For your boat example, the owner might have caught it at 75 hrs if he did an oil change, or might have missed it if visible particles were not evident. The owner might have caught it if he did a UOA at 25, 50, or 75 hrs even if visible particles were not evident.

[underscore]

This dude didn't change oil on his 3 series for 100,000km. :facepalm:

A lady in the US went 97k miles without a change in her (then) brand new Lexus. There's pics and a story out there somewhere.

[iam_dan]

What car do you have and what kind of driving do you do?

im driving a 98 240sx..very laid back driving..usually changing gears at 2500-3000rpms

just the regular daily driving style

[N.A Honda]

I have a couple of questions for you guys, sorry to hi-jack this thread.

I have a 88 tercel with 300,500kms. I bought this car recently and have been changing the oil every 3000kms. Is it necessary? What brand of oil and weight should I use? At the moment I'm using the 5w30 Castrol High Mileage with OEM filter. I do a mix of highway and city driving.

[LiquidTurbo]

im driving a 98 240sx..very laid back driving..usually changing gears at 2500-3000rpms

just the regular daily driving style

If your car is in good shape (PCV valve working, no coolant leak in the oil, clean air filter), then yes, most modern passenger cars can easily do 8,000-12,000km region, especially with synthetic oil.

I'm not making this up based on 'feelings' or what 'mechanics' have told me, it's based on the UOA's I've browsed on bobistheoilguy.com.

BTW, most 'synthetic' oils aren't really synthetic oils at all, but a highly refined form of conventional oil.

[LiquidTurbo]

I have a couple of questions for you guys, sorry to hi-jack this thread.

I have a 88 tercel with 300,500kms. I bought this car recently and have been changing the oil every 3000kms. Is it necessary? What brand of oil and weight should I use? At the moment I'm using the 5w30 Castrol High Mileage with OEM filter. I do a mix of highway and city driving.

Does the engine not burn oil? Are the seals good? Coolant leak? Functioning PCV valve?

If yes. If it was my car, I would just use any cheapest dino, change every 5,000km / 6months, and call it a day.

Weight is dictated by owner's manual. In 1988, 10w30 was used a lot. Check the manual.

Just my opinion. Do a UOA if you are bored want to know what's in the oil.

[taylor192]

I have a couple of questions for you guys, sorry to hi-jack this thread.

I have a 88 tercel with 300,500kms. I bought this car recently and have been changing the oil every 3000kms. Is it necessary? What brand of oil and weight should I use? At the moment I'm using the 5w30 Castrol High Mileage with OEM filter. I do a mix of highway and city driving.Siphon off a few ounces and do a UOA and you'll get better advice than from anyone here.

Instead of hijacking the thread - read it :p ;)

[taylor192]

BTW, most 'synthetic' oils aren't really synthetic oils at all, but a highly refined form of conventional oil.
There is a report somewhere that compares all the synthetics and concludes that several of them are no better than conventional oil.

[LiquidTurbo]

^.

I tend to agree. In day to day driving (unless you have a car like the RDX that requires synthetic due to it's turbo), synthetic oil really isn't needed. Oil companies have been very successful with it's marketing strategies, not to mention Oil engineers have found a cheap way to refine 'synthetic' oils from crude basestocks.

However, one big plus of synthetics is generally longer drain intervals than conventional - they tend to be more shear stable than conventional. (True Group IV and V and 'conventional' Hydrocracked Group III basestocks)

People who change oil more frequently than 8,000km with synthetics are wasting their money IMO. Conventional will perform just as well in such a short interval.

[LiquidTurbo]

What's a good way to share a PDF file? I have an interesting SAE study performed by Honda Engineers showcasing 0w20 oils vs 5w30.

[underscore]

^ rapidshare?

also: true or false, once you have switched to synthetic oil you cannot go back to conventional, as it has changed the seals in some way.

[LiquidTurbo]

^ rapidshare?

also: true or false, once you have switched to synthetic oil you cannot go back to conventional, as it has changed the seals in some way.

I'll let Mobil1 answer it for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-sz-ZfnhSw


But short answer, totally false. Conventional and Syn Oils are completely mixable and compatible, as long as they are API certified. Just look at all the synthetic blend oils there are, which are a mixture of both.

[TOPEC]

is mobil 1 a true synthetic now or is it still a blend?

[LiquidTurbo]

is mobil 1 a true synthetic now or is it still a blend?

All M1 are blends now, it's not like the good old days. Oil is made of basestocks + additive package (detergents, conditioners, etc).

M1 now contains a mixture of basestocks:

Group III+ (refined conventional)
Group IV PAO, (Poly-alpha-olefins) <- True Synthetic materials.


It's anybody's guess exactly how much, since they don't release formulation information. Difference viscosities will have different blends. People speculate that Oils like their 15w50 is almost exclusively PAO, where as the 5w30 is fairly little.

But most people agree that M1 Extended Performance 5w30 (the Golden Lid that allows 1 year, 24,000km oil changes)
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41nOARRfmFL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

contains more PAO than the regular 5w30.
http://www.factorydirectoil.com/images/mobil_1_7wur.jpg




ExxonMobil is world's largest producer of PAOs. 5w30 is also their top selling oil, so I wouldn't be surprised if they put as little PAO as they can get away with it in their 5w30. PAO is expensive. There's also evidence that for awhile, M1 5w30 was NOT formulated correctly, and failed the SAE Sequence IV wear test for a long time.

[eFx[A2C]]

mobil 1 0w-40 is apparently a group iv oil.

[LiquidTurbo]

;6994889']mobil 1 0w-40 is apparently a group iv oil.

I agree that's probably quite likely. It's tough to get that kind of viscosity spread with conventional basestocks.

[chris walter]

I just change my oil whenever I can here a difference in the engine noise
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[LiquidTurbo]

Hi all, here are two links that will be of interest to anyone actually wanting to learn more about oil. They are SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) technical papers written by Engineers and Tribologists, so don't expect a Dr. Seuss bedtime story. But if you're willing to read them in detail you'll definitely learn something.


A Study on Longer Drain Intervals
A Study on Longer Drain Intervals


The Effect of 0W-20 Low Viscosity Engine Oil on Fuel Economy <- Performed by Honda Japan.
The Effect of 0W-20 Low Viscosity Engine Oil on Fuel Economy

[LiquidTurbo]

I just change my oil whenever I can here a difference in the engine noise
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

How does your engine sound different?

[crazyazn]

There is a report somewhere that compares all the synthetics and concludes that several of them are no better than conventional oil.

What type of synthetics are you referring to? True synthetics (Group IV+) or "synthetics"?

Also, GC and Motul 8100 are group IV right?

[chris walter]

Sounds more tired and almost tinny
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[LiquidTurbo]

Also, GC and Motul 8100 are group IV right?

Yes.

[skyxx]

I'm really happy that this thread is informing/educating people. I should re-phrase that this thread can also be for questions regarding the oil, change intervals, and filters that members have for their car. Then other members can help them out by leading them the proper way. I'm seeing quite a few people doing exactly that and members like "Liquid Turbo" is doing a great job of explaining. :D So if you guys have any questions regarding the stuff you use, don't hesitate to ask! This thread is for all the questions you have or what not.

I'm just trying to make a thread that educates people (RS has been lacking threads like these :/). So please keep the thread as civil as possible. :thumbsup:

[Expresso]

Has there been a recent shootout or comparison of the current blended synthetics out there? ie. mobil/castrol/vavoline etc... Just curious which one is better.

[LiquidTurbo]

Sounds more tired and almost tinny
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

Spent oil doesn't offer any sound dampening effects, so I'm pretty sure it's just psychological. Post a vid of the engine sound before and after an oil change, it'd be interesting to hear any difference.

[crazyazn]

Question: Will OEM filters last long enough for the extended drain intervals with synthetic? I'm talking about 10k-12k intervals.

[LiquidTurbo]

Question: Will OEM filters last long enough for the extended drain intervals with synthetic? I'm talking about 10k-12k intervals.

What kind of filter, for what car? For extended intervals it's advised to use a quality filter like Amsoil EaO, Pure1, Wix. These filters have sturdier construction with the steel endcaps (as opposed to cardboard in Frams) and in the case of the Amsoil EaO, extra filtration media. It's just extra assurance that the filter media won't deform or the bypass valve failing - though I haven't seen a case where an OEM filter ever failed in that region of interval. For my car I just use the Honda OEM filters. They work just fine, I cut one open one time and it was fine for a 12k interval. Should've taken a photo, my hands were way too oily though :D.

[crazyazn]

^I see, I'm using JDM Green Hamp filter + Motul 8100 5w-40 right now...08 CSX-S.

It's recommended to change oil when the Oil Life Meter is at 15%...and that was ~6000km with the OEM 5w-30 (it's "semi-synthetic"...dunno what the means). So I'm planning to take the Motul up to 10k...which should be pretty safe right?

[LiquidTurbo]

^

You're still under warranty w/ the CSX right? If so, I would adhere by the OLM because if you need your warranty, they might hassle you, blaming extended oil intervals.

BTW, JDM HAMP is a great filter for the K20Z1/Z3.

[skyxx]

^ As long as you show receipts and have written down the oil change intervals, the warranty should still be intact.

[LiquidTurbo]

^I see, I'm using JDM Green Hamp filter + Motul 8100 5w-40 right now...08 CSX-S.

It's recommended to change oil when the Oil Life Meter is at 15%...and that was ~6000km with the OEM 5w-30 (it's "semi-synthetic"...dunno what the means). So I'm planning to take the Motul up to 10k...which should be pretty safe right?


Nice thing about the K20XX engines is that all the UOAs show them to be very easy on oil.

Check out this report from forums from Bobistheoilguy of a 06 Civic SI (similar engine )

This is how he drives:

"Driving Conditions: I still commute 65 miles round trip each day, but for the past 4 months I've started doing some more in between trips (grad school). On this oil change, I've never driven the car harder. I cruise at 4000 rpms (about 80mph). I hit redline/tap the 8300 rpm fuel cut somewhere between 5-8 times a day, and usually in 2nd, 3rd, nd 4th gear. I sometimes let the engine brake at 6000 rpms for a minute or two.

I never beat on it till it reaches operating temperature (i.e. 15+ minutes of driving). I never drive it until it's been idling for 15-20 seconds, in the cold it's more like 45-60 seconds. I never idle it for more than 2-3 minutes straight. I typically drive it between 3000-4000 rpms to help it warm up."

26-36k on engine: Amsoil Series 2000 0w30
36-50k on engine: Amsoil SSO 0w30
50k-66k on engine: Amsoil SSO 0w30
~66k-77k on engine: Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 (this UOA:)
http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/ae281/joefrompa/06CivicSIOilReport16-Dec-09.jpg

Note that this is all in miles. He's been doing 16,000 MILE (24,000km) intervals and his 06 Civic SI is now over 120,000km. And he doesn't baby his car either. He ran this interval 'only' till 10,000miles, (16,000km) because he was curious how Pennzoil Platinum would perform. And it did well.

I would bet a case of beer that your CSX could easily tackle 10,000km no problem, especially with a nice 'synthetic' oil, like M1, Motul 8100v, or PP. Do a UOA at the end of the 10,000km and check if you want even more peace of mind. The info would give you a good baseline on how to run your next several oil changes.

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

^


shit maybe i shouldnt change my motul so often than, thx a lot for the decent data and knowledge

appreciated
:thumbsup:

but i guess even if my milleage didnt rack up as quick, when the timeline is due...i should still change

every...6 months - 12 months ish? depending driving habite

[LiquidTurbo]

If you're paying extra for a nice quality, expensive synthetic, you might as well use it's benefits that make it more expensive.

Part of those benefits is better ability to keep shear stability over a longer interval. So why dump it at 3,000km?

For K20XX owners, changing 2-3times a year is more than enough. If people drive 24,000km a year, then 4month 8,000km intervals are just fine. They got bigger problems to worry about at that point.. like 2nd gear grind :D

[AWDTurboLuvr]

Agreed on the above post.

I'm waiting for my kit to arrive and I'll test my Mobil1 0W-40 after a track day later this year. The oil by then will have 6000km on it.

[SumAznGuy]

Has there been a recent shootout or comparison of the current blended synthetics out there? ie. mobil/castrol/vavoline etc... Just curious which one is better.

I highly recommend finding some time and going onto Bobistheoilguy and read some of the stuff there. Lots of people have done UOA on some of the more common brands and grades of oil and some of the people there are current/former employees from certain oil companies. I can't remember who is who off the top of my head, but LT is bang on about "Johnny" being a retired Shell person. And if you go there, you might see LiquidTurbo trolling there. =)

LT, there was some advancement on the S2k TCT and M1 issues. Gotta dig up the thread, but IIRC, there is some belief that the M1 lubricated too well which caused the TCT to fail. =P

I still have my UOA kit but have been too lazy to record any of my data to send off to get the oil analysed. I think I add about 1L of oil every 2500 km's. Might be a bit more than that.

[crazyazn]

Sweet, thanks for the info LT. Seems like PP is a very good oil too...why's it got so much more Moly than the Amsoil?

PP is pretty cheap at CT, am I right?

[LiquidTurbo]

^

Moly is added as an antiwear additive, the factory fill Honda has much of it. This is parts per million, even though 33ppm seems like much more than 8ppm, in reality the difference is minuscule. It's just a different formulation.

By far the cheapest place for PP is in the states. $20 USD for a 4.7L jug. It's $37 at CT last time I checked. That's a big difference! Everytime I go to the states I stock up =D

[LiquidTurbo]

Agreed on the above post.

I'm waiting for my kit to arrive and I'll test my Mobil1 0W-40 after a track day later this year. The oil by then will have 6000km on it.

When you get the results please post! Would be interesting to see.

[Spectre_Cdn]

By far the cheapest place for PP is in the states. $20 USD for a 4.7L jug. It's $37 at CT last time I checked. That's a big difference! Everytime I go to the states I stock up =D
FYI: Pennzoil Platinum is on sale at CT for twenty-something staring tomorrow.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[eFx[A2C]]

Cheapest place to get PP is walmart, 19.88 for 4.4L in 5 and 10W30

[crazyazn]

^

Moly is added as an antiwear additive, the factory fill Honda has much of it. This is parts per million, even though 33ppm seems like much more than 8ppm, in reality the difference is minuscule. It's just a different formulation.

So more moly doesn't necessarily mean better right? But higher the TBN the better right?

[skyxx]

After I'm done my batch of Mobil 1 0W40, I will head down to the country of Star Bangle Banner to hoard a box of Pennzoil Ultra 5w40. They don't carry the Ultras in Canada so I must trek downwards!

[Expresso]

I'll post my old UOA for the heck of it!

[bcrdukes]

^
Kingshit results! :D

[Delerious]

In regards to the orange fram filters of death, a forum member recently had a near-failure with said filter, I'll post pictures if you guys want.

Not sure if this has been posted before, but I found it an interesting read (long)

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=haas_articles

[eFx[A2C]]

Yes please post pics. Fram orange can gets a lot of crap but the bottom line is it works fine for 3k/5k intervals. Folks at bitog though bash it to hell.

[Delerious]

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n198/Armineus/DSC00629.jpg

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n198/Armineus/DSC00633.jpg

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n198/Armineus/DSC00634.jpg

[LiquidTurbo]

So more moly doesn't necessarily mean better right? But higher the TBN the better right?

The jury is still out on Moly DiSuphide. I have yet to come across any reading that conclusively proves it's harmful to passenger cars. (Motorcycles apparently is a different story with their wetclutchs)

Benefits are anti-wear properties and increased fuel econ.

Honda's factory fill has high moly, and Genuine Honda Oil contains good amount of moly. So that kinda swayed me to be confident with an oil like PP. That being said, it's just a different formulation.

Higher TBN is a good indictor the oil can be extended. One thing to note is TBN decreases non-linearly, it goes down slower near the end.

Extended drain oils like Amsoil SSO start out with high TBNs.

[LiquidTurbo]

LT, there was some advancement on the S2k TCT and M1 issues. Gotta dig up the thread, but IIRC, there is some belief that the M1 lubricated too well which caused the TCT to fail. =P

I highly doubt this. You have the link? Would be interesting to read.

I would have imagined it might have more to do with this:

http://www.jobbersworld.com/artwor55.gif
http://www.jobbersworld.com/March%2020,%202009.htm

This is where Castrol Edge and Valvoline get their crazy 8x, 4x better wear protection claims from. Funny thing is, ExxonMobil has stayed totally silent on the matter.

I stopped using M1 long ago.

[KiDEclipse]

FTW >>>>>>>>>>http://www.newlaunches.com/entry_images/0610/18/hello_kitty_engine_oil.jpg

[LiquidTurbo]

^

haha. Nah, this is betta ;)

http://i34.tinypic.com/e7gg0h.jpg

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

FTW >>>>>>>>>>http://www.newlaunches.com/entry_images/0610/18/hello_kitty_engine_oil.jpg

OH SHIT!!! tat is king! i should switch over, forget motul Agip yo


:thumbsup:

[Spaceship_coupe]

LiquidTurbo what do you think of the Mobil 1 oil filters that they now recently started carrying at Canadian Tire? I'm currently using Napa Gold oil filters with regular dino oil with 7000km oil changes. Do you think it's worth it to switch over to the Mobil 1 filter?

BTW, this is for a 98 Civic Dx beater. Thanks!

[CorneringArtist]

^

haha. Nah, this is betta ;)

http://i34.tinypic.com/e7gg0h.jpg

You know that's scented right? Would be funny to know that you had an oil leak when you smell strawberries LOL.

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

i wonder how much a bottle

[eFx[A2C]]

LiquidTurbo what do you think of the Mobil 1 oil filters that they now recently started carrying at Canadian Tire? I'm currently using Napa Gold oil filters with regular dino oil with 7000km oil changes. Do you think it's worth it to switch over to the Mobil 1 filter?

BTW, this is for a 98 Civic Dx beater. Thanks!

If you switch to Mobil 1 filters you could leave the filter on for another interval. How much are the napa golds costing you right now? I'm not sure how much the M1 filters cost at ct right now but i'm guessing 15ish ? Napa gold itself can go further than 7k.

[LiquidTurbo]

LiquidTurbo what do you think of the Mobil 1 oil filters that they now recently started carrying at Canadian Tire? I'm currently using Napa Gold oil filters with regular dino oil with 7000km oil changes. Do you think it's worth it to switch over to the Mobil 1 filter?

BTW, this is for a 98 Civic Dx beater. Thanks!

It makes it a lot easier that you say it's your beater. 7k dino + Napa should serve you just fine.

I haven't seen any studies/data that demonstrate that synthetic media (such as in the new M1 filters) is superior to paper media in such a short interval. I would tend to think that the choice of oil is a more important decision than the oil filter. The job of the oil filter is just to trap large particulates. Most filters even the crappy ones do just fine. 7k is not really an extended interval either. Napa Golds are well-constructed too.

I've never really heard of a car engine life being impacted by the oil filter. If anyone has data that shows otherwise, please share.

What's the price premium on the M1 filters? Your current combination has served your Civic well for 12 years. Keep on doing what you're doing and it should last another 12. Do a UOA and check for % of insolubles if you're worried. I would bet that it's Ultra-low and nothing needs to be changed.

[Spaceship_coupe]

The M1 filters are $15 each at Cdn Tire.

I've only had the Civic for about a year and have already put on 30k kms. I have no idea what oil/filter combo the previous owner had but so far so good. I had to use the Fram filter once because of Cdn Tire's promotion where you get it free with a purchase of a jug of Castrol GTX. I have yet thought of doing a UOA but will probably extend the change to 8k kms.

PS...I really like the Napa Gold filters, imo they are great for the money and I'm thinking of buying a master pack. :)

[LiquidTurbo]

How many kms on the car?

[Spaceship_coupe]

The car currently has 280k kms. I'll be getting the timing belt service done in the near future as well as a new rad and thermostat.

I plan to keep this car for a few years.

[ericthehalfbee]

I went back through our database at work for the last 5 years and appx 3,000 customer vehicles and looked at all of the engines that needed significant repair work (mechanical repair work on the engine assembly only).

We had one engine with a lubrication failure, and that was because it was a used vehicle and the previous owner did an improper repair to the engine (so stupid I can't even believe they were able to actually remove the engine to rebuild it and get it back in the car, yet they could miss something on the inside so obvious).

The remainder of the repairs fell into the following categories (most common items first).

- Timing chain/belt failures or tensioner failures.
- Head gasket failure.
- Dropped valve seat, sticky valve, weak spring or other valvetrain issues.
- Moving cylinder liner.
- Spun bearings.

Absolutely none of these problems would be detected with a UOA and a UOA would save you nothing in the repair costs by early detection as the companies who sell UOA promote.

Let's take a bearing problem as an example. Your UOA analysis indicates higher than normal values of bearing material in the oil. So where on your UOA report does it tell you which bearing is wearing? Are all your bearings wearing slightly more than normal, or is all the material suspended in the oil from a single bearing that's about to fail? And if your UOA tells you your bearings are wearing, what are you going to do to fix the problem? Are you going to assume that all your bearings are wearing slightly more than normal and change your oil sooner, or are you going to be worried that a single bearing is about to fail? Are the methods the mechanic uses to check your bearings going to suddenly drop in price now that the UOA has identified bearing material in the oil? No, you still need to do the long process of dis-assembling the engine to locate the bad bearing (bearings) and replace them.

In the end, having a UOA tell you there's more bearing material in the oil will do nothing to prevent the bearing problem, it will do nothing to identify the exact source of the problem, and it will make no difference on your final repair bill.


UOA is the answer to a question that nobody asked. I firmly believe that UOA can help you to find out what oil change interval is good for you and how many KM's you can expect to get from a certain oil with your driving habits. I also firmly believe that modern engines with modern oils can go much longer than people think before they need to have their oil changed. But I call BS on the idea that UOA is going to help you determine if your engine is going to fail or make any difference to your repair costs through early detection. Most of the things that can break on your engine aren't going to leave traces in the oil for you to detect. And the ones that do (like bearings) will still require an old-fashioned engine rebuild to locate and repair.

We looked at UOA years ago for our customers and decided based on the repairs we were doing that UOA would have simply been an additional expense that would have made no difference to our customers repair bills. If we did regular UOA's on our customer cars we would be spending upwards of $30,000 per year on tests and receive no benefit. We decided our customer money would be better spent elsewhere.



In my case I can spend $30 on an oil change every 5,000km or I can spend $60 ($30 oil change and $30 UOA) every 10,000km's. In the first scenario I change my oil twice as often and the second I stretch my oil change and have some report tell me that "your oil is good to for 10,000km oil change intervals".

I'll go with the first option, thank you. I don't need a report to tell me my oil is OK just like I don't need to spend money to tell me the sun is going to rise tomorrow or anything else that's so obvious. Oil related lubrication failures are so rare I don't even worry about them with my personal (or customer) vehicles.

For people where your oil change costs significantly more (like using 8 litres of synthetic and an OEM filter), you could save money in the long term by getting a UOA done and getting the maximum life from your oil, but for most cars the savings just simply aren't there. So I'll go with using my money to change my oil more often, and while my car is in the air I'm going to look over the rest of my car. There's where the possibility of saving money exists as I can visually see if components on my car (belts, hoses, brakes, exhaust, suspension, mounts and so on) need attention.

[LiquidTurbo]

Nice post. I thought you were a software developer? ;)

For the most part I actually agree with you. I've never advocated that a single pass UOA can early detect an imminent engine failure..


The remainder of the repairs fell into the following categories (most common items first).

- Timing chain/belt failures or tensioner failures.
- Head gasket failure.
- Dropped valve seat, sticky valve, weak spring or other valvetrain issues.
- Moving cylinder liner.
- Spun bearings.

How many of these are related to oil failing? (Except perhaps the last one). I agree that a UOA cannot possibly detect these things. (Neither can visually inspecting the oil). UOA is good for seeing if you have a coolant leak in the system, or if you have insufficient air filtration.

Most UOA companies that I've seen have never promoted the idea that doing a UOA will be able to catch something early. UOA is not X-Ray vision to inspect the components inside the engine. The best way for that is to open up the engines and physically look inside. UOA is good to see if your intervals are sufficient. I don't recommend doing a UOA every single oil change unless you're a serious oil enthusiast. I think it's sufficient every other change.

Why don't you feel the need to change your oil every 3,000km? Because you know that it's completely unnecessary. It's possible to make the same jump of faith from 5,000 to say, 10,000. UOA is a great tool to help you do that.

Most people don't give two shits about their oil changes , but it's RS , where people are willing to wash and wax their cars every other day, so certain members may be interested. You make a good point about the car being up and being able to inspect components, however. But again, most average people simple don't care about that kind of thing.

[SumAznGuy]

I highly doubt this. You have the link? Would be interesting to read.

Billman is a trusted S2000 mechanic out of NY.

http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=397724&st=175&#entry17605449

[LiquidTurbo]

Billman is a trusted S2000 mechanic out of NY.

http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=397724&st=175&#entry17605449

And he quotes:

"To recap:

Mobil1 is not the problem.

Sandblast your worm gear and fix the problem.

Don't buy a new tensioner. If you have, sandblast its worm gear right off the bat."

Nothing to do with an oil issue, but a design issue.

[shenmecar]

Related question, when do you check your oil level? When the engine is HOT or COLD? (*prepares for faggot to post a Katy Perry video*)

[Spaceship_coupe]

Check it when it's hot, I usually check it when I get home after a drive or at a gas station so this way you get a true level.

[jack_dangerous]

Check it when it's hot, I usually check it when I get home after a drive or at a gas station so this way you get a true level.

No. You're suppose to check it when its cold. Best time to check your oil level is in the morning when the oil has all drained into the pan from the rest of the engine. Just pull the dipstick out and check, no need to wipe or anything since the oil has settled. Clean and easy.

[LiquidTurbo]

Check it when it's cold and when your car is level. When your car is running and warm, the oil pump has been running and residual oil will be in the engine internals rather than in the sump.

The dipstick is a measure of the oil in the sump. It's also easier to see when the engine is cold.

[Spaceship_coupe]

Damn...I never knew that. Guess I've been doing it wrong all these years. Thanks for the correction.

*EDIT*

I just looked it up in my manual.

Checking the engine oil level
The best time to check the engine oil level is when the oil is warm.

To get a true reading, the vehicle must be on level ground.
- After turning off the engine, wait a few minutes for the oil to return to the oil pan.
- Pull out dipstick (arrow) and wipe it clean with a rag.
- Reinsert dipstick; push it all the way in.
- Pull dipstick out again and read the level:
a - You must not add oil.
b - You can add oil. The oil level may go into the a range, but not above the a range
c - You must add oil. After fillin in oil, make sure that the oil level is somewhere within the b range.
- After checking the oil level, please make sure that the dipstick is pushed back in all the way.

A refers to the high mark, b the middle range and c is the low mark.

I guess it must differ from manufacturers as I have been following this method since I've owned this car.

[SkinnyPupp]

Yeah from what I recall, the oil needs to be warm, and the car needs to be running, but you shouldn't check immediately after it's running. A few minutes is best.

[LiquidTurbo]

Damn...I never knew that. Guess I've been doing it wrong all these years. Thanks for the correction.

*EDIT*

I just looked it up in my manual.



A refers to the high mark, b the middle range and c is the low mark.

I guess it must differ from manufacturers as I have been following this method since I've owned this car.

Interesting! Check the oil when cold AND warm and see how much of a difference it makes. Perhaps your Audi's sump is large. How many liters of oil does it take per change?

[Great68]

Check it when it's cold and when your car is level. When your car is running and warm, the oil pump has been running and residual oil will be in the engine internals rather than in the sump.

The dipstick is a measure of the oil in the sump. It's also easier to see when the engine is cold.

Unless you have a drainage problem in your block, the amount of oil left in the engine after 5 minutes of an engine being shut off is pretty miniscule.

My MS3's manual outlines the following procedure to check the oil (verbatim):

1. Be sure the vehicle is on a level surface.
2. Warm up the engine to normal operating temperature.
3. Turn it off and wait at least 5 minutes for the oil to return to the oil pan.
4. Pull out the dipstick, wipe it clean, and reinsurt fully.
5. Pull it out again and examine the level.

My Ranger's manual also says to warm the engine, then let sit for 5 minutes for oil to drain to pan.

See a trend?

[Spaceship_coupe]

Interesting! Check the oil when cold AND warm and see how much of a difference it makes. Perhaps your Audi's sump is large. How many liters of oil does it take per change?

I shall do that next time and post an update. It takes about 7 litres.

[LiquidTurbo]

Hmm, guess I'm the one that's been doing it wrong. :lol. Check the oil cold and warm to see how much of a difference it makes in the oil levels. In my past few cars, it hasn't made much of a difference with the exception hot oil is a bit harder to read.

[Spaceship_coupe]

Hey no worries man! This is why I find this forum is useful (at times :p). I just hope people actually read through the whole thread instead of just a specific post. The information us automotive enthusiasts have should be shared.

I'm just glad you replied in a mature way, other forums would be jumping on my back with e-thuggin. haha

[underscore]

I've always checked it with the car off for at least 5 minutes, being a DOHC a good bit of the oil is all over the engine when it's running. I wouldn't think the oil being warm vs cold would make *that* much of a difference, obviously it'll expand when it's warm but by how much? a noticeable amount?

[LiquidTurbo]

I've always checked it with the car off for at least 5 minutes, being a DOHC a good bit of the oil is all over the engine when it's running. I wouldn't think the oil being warm vs cold would make *that* much of a difference, obviously it'll expand when it's warm but by how much? a noticeable amount?

The temporary oil film thats left in the engine internals would affect the oil level far more than any thermal expansion.

[TOPEC]

dip sticks should have 2 "full" marks on it, at least on mine it does.

one is the "F" or full mark, its for cold readings
then above the mark about 1/8 to 1/4 higher has a notch on the side of the dip stick, this is the "full" reading for when the oil is hot. check ur dip sticks and see if theres 2 marks.

http://www.subaruforester.org/gallery/images/18308/large/1_IMG_0662.JPG

[jack_dangerous]

i guess technically it doesn't really matter if you check the oil when the engine is warm or cold as the difference in level should be minimal. Just check it regularly, more often if your vehicle is higher mileage, or you got vtakkk since you burn some oil when its engaged.

[death_blossom]

I'm not gonna go through this whole thread, but what are people's opinions on 5w20 weight oil?

I know this is what is recommended and used by manufacturers these days, for many vehicles. but personally, I don't believe in using such a low viscosity oil. I know it is more efficient (less friction for the engine components allowing better fuel consumption), but I feel that a 20 weight simply won't provide the type of lubricating protection that a 30 weight (or higher) would.

for example, the RX-8 is supposed to use 5w20 as per Mazda's manual. I'm sure the Renesis motor has mad many advances compared to the RX-7's 13b(t) engines of yester year, but it's still a rotary engine. an oil burning, gasoline guzzling rotary... using a low viscosity oil like 5w20 isn't going to help in the oil burning department.

discussions? can someone please fill me in on what I'm missing on using 5w20 oil.

[skylinergtr]

^^

on a car like a mazda rx-8 i would not use 5w-20 with it's high rev's. However, on say normal cars or trucks its fine. My 2002 Ford Explorer V8 has been using conventional 5w-20 since it was new. It doesn't leak or burn a drop. I've driven the piss out of it before. It runs absolutely great. Normal daily commuter 'no fun cars', 5w-20 viscosity should be fine, rev happy sport cars... look at heavier weights.

[TOPEC]

I'm not gonna go through this whole thread, but what are people's opinions on 5w20 weight oil?

I know this is what is recommended and used by manufacturers these days, for many vehicles. but personally, I don't believe in using such a low viscosity oil. I know it is more efficient (less friction for the engine components allowing better fuel consumption), but I feel that a 20 weight simply won't provide the type of lubricating protection that a 30 weight (or higher) would.

for example, the RX-8 is supposed to use 5w20 as per Mazda's manual. I'm sure the Renesis motor has mad many advances compared to the RX-7's 13b(t) engines of yester year, but it's still a rotary engine. an oil burning, gasoline guzzling rotary... using a low viscosity oil like 5w20 isn't going to help in the oil burning department.

discussions? can someone please fill me in on what I'm missing on using 5w20 oil.

in an engine thats designed to burn oil, using a higher weight oil isnt going to prevent oil burning like in a conventional 4 stroke where a thicker weight will prevent seepage pass the rings.
but again, if ur using a higher weight oil to prevent seepage pass the rings, ur just masking a problem that is there.

[LiquidTurbo]

I'm not gonna go through this whole thread, but what are people's opinions on 5w20 weight oil?

I know this is what is recommended and used by manufacturers these days, for many vehicles. but personally, I don't believe in using such a low viscosity oil. I know it is more efficient (less friction for the engine components allowing better fuel consumption), but I feel that a 20 weight simply won't provide the type of lubricating protection that a 30 weight (or higher) would.

for example, the RX-8 is supposed to use 5w20 as per Mazda's manual. I'm sure the Renesis motor has mad many advances compared to the RX-7's 13b(t) engines of yester year, but it's still a rotary engine. an oil burning, gasoline guzzling rotary... using a low viscosity oil like 5w20 isn't going to help in the oil burning department.

discussions? can someone please fill me in on what I'm missing on using 5w20 oil.

It's just my opinion, but I believe 5w20 is not ideal for a number of reasons.
Here are my thoughts:



1. Any car that specs 5w20 can use 5w30 with no issues.

For example, in Japan, here is the manual for a car with the same engine in an RSX.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Liquid_Turbo/1.gif

In the NA version, only 5w20 is recommended. Another thing to note is that in Japan for this engine, SL oils (an older spec) recommended where in NA, SM oil ir recommended.

2. Manufacturers that sell cars in North America that have lines of cars that use 5w20 qualify for fee reductions from CAFE regulations (corporate average fuel economy) This is incentive for car makers to push for 5w20.

Read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Average_Fuel_Economy


3. Cars that spec's 0w20 and 5w20 initially had some problems with oil consumption, were then spec'd back to 5w30. 8th Gen Corolla is one of these cars, I believe there was a TSB issued for this.

4. Cars that used to use 5w30 were then spec'd to use 5w20. Same engine, same car, just different year. A couple Ford models had this.

5. 5w20 causes more wear that 5w30, although 5w20 provides adequate protection as per SAE engine wear standards.


http://i37.tinypic.com/syatzd.jpg

6. 5w20's promises of increased fuel economy are virtually undetectable, although if a million cars used 5w20 vs 5w30, there would be a difference.


So, conclusions. 5w20 and 0w20 cause very slightly more engine wear, slightly more oil consumption at the expense of very very little fuel savings per vehicle. Cars that spec 5w20 can use 5w30 with zero repercussions. (I have yet to see any evidence against this. Cars used to spec different grades of oil for different ambient temperatures all the time; now it seems that cars want to use a one-oil-fits-all approach.)

I believe in a car that specs 5w20, you can use 5w30, or even 10w30 with zero issues. If you check the pour point for synthetic 10w30, they're good for temperature warmer than -20C. Your engine is not going to explode if you use a different grade of oil. My car's spec'd for 5w20, but I use a 5w30.

[skyxx]

Woot, glad the thread is back! With Prof liquid turbo at it!!!
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[Alphamale]

I believe in a car that specs 5w20, you can use 5w30, or even 10w30 with zero issues. If you check the pour point for synthetic 10w30, they're good for temperature warmer than -20C. Your engine is not going to explode if you use a different grade of oil. My car's spec'd for 5w20, but I use a 5w30.

I have personally found this not to be true. Depending on the age of the car and how well it's been taken care of, using 10w-30 on a 5w-20 or 5w-30 car may result in the car feeling "sluggish". This is of course, on Japanese and some American cars with American cars being more indifferent.

I'm not saying that you CAN'T use 10w-30 (as I'm sure as per the manual, it's probably okay and within spec)...some people have just told me they've felt a difference.

[Leopold Stotch]

lol try checking the oil in a VQ35 after you run it

i swear ihave to wait like 10-20 mins before it settles. the WORST dipstick design i've EVER seen and i used to change oil for cars lol

[death_blossom]

It's just my opinion, but I believe 5w20 is not ideal for a number of reasons.
Here are my thoughts:


....

so, you're agreeing with me? :D
you totally reinforced my opinion on why 5w20 isn't really that great of a lubricant.


as for the checking oil thing, I was taught something different from my Toyota mechanic. he would run the car, cut the ignition and check oil right away. he actually wanted oil in the head so he could check what oil was in the oil pan. he would then ensure it was full with all the extra oil in the head. the idea was that you would want an oil pan full of oil (or near full) when you are driving with the rest of the oil in the head. this idea comes into play more-so for cars that are being driven hard, at say, a track day. you would want full lubrication available in both the head and block.

so now, when I check oil I make sure it is a little bit over the Full mark when the car has been sitting for a while. :)

[LiquidTurbo]

lol try checking the oil in a VQ35 after you run it

i swear ihave to wait like 10-20 mins before it settles. the WORST dipstick design i've EVER seen and i used to change oil for cars lol

I agree with you, I've checked the oil in my friend's VQ. It's also impractical/annoying to wait 20min to do a simple oil check. I think if you do a check when car is hot, and cold, you can get an idea at the level fluctuation. As long as the oil is safely within the MIN and MAX, I think you're :thumbsup:.

I don't think there's a car where hot and cold makes the difference between MIN and MAX... if there was, it's a pretty shitty designed car. :lol. For my car, (K-series), the difference between 5min after shutoff and overnight cold is about 1/8 of a quart, which is 1/8 of the dipstick difference.

[LiquidTurbo]

so, you're agreeing with me? :D
you totally reinforced my opinion on why 5w20 isn't really that great of a lubricant.


My opinion is that 5w20 is a 'good enough' lubrication solution, but not the best option. Car makers push for 5w20 as much as they can to reduce their CAFE fees.

I don't think it's right to classify the entire range of 5w20 as 'not that great'.

That being said, I'd happily use quality synthetic 5w20 over a low quality dino 5w30 made from a shitty basestock, assuming that 5w20 is spec'd for the application. But head to head same quality synthetic 5w20 vs 5w30, I'd take the minisicule, immeasurable drop in fuel econ for slightly better wear protection by using the 5w30.

[Leopold Stotch]

My opinion is that 5w20 is a 'good enough' lubrication solution, but not the best option. Car makers push for 5w20 as much as they can to reduce their CAFE fees.

I don't think it's right to classify the entire range of 5w20 as 'not that great'.

That being said, I'd happily use quality synthetic 5w20 over a low quality dino 5w30 made from a shitty basestock, assuming that 5w20 is spec'd for the application. But head to head same quality synthetic 5w20 vs 5w30, I'd take the minisicule, immeasurable drop in fuel econ for slightly better wear protection by using the 5w30.

yea i dont like 5w20 very much. but unless it's driven hard, burns excessively or something like that i'd just keep it in DD cars.

half the cars in my house use 5w20

[iamon]

a question for all of you, this is the first time i will be changing my own oil at home, and my driveway is slanted, do you think it would be dangerous if I jack my car up on the driveway and use jack stands or would I break any bylaws by doing my oil change on the street?

[SumAznGuy]

Don't know about bylaws, but type of jack do you plan on using? Jack stands is a really good idea, but what type of pavement do you have? Since it is so hot out, asphalt will go soft and the jack stands might/will sink into the ground.

[iamon]

its concrete i believe doesnt go soft in this heat we've been having, i think they call it a trolley jack the one I would be using. I'm just worried about the car rolling while I'm working on it.

[skyxx]

Bumpity bump! shameless bump.

[Bahhbeehhaaaa]

LiquidTurbo. Thanks man! I've learned a lot from you! =) Now I drive a 03 Sienna 89,000km on the clock, oil change every 5000km w/ mobil 1 synthetic. I do the same with my bro's 06 TSX with 74,000km. I understand that having an oil change every 8k is fine on newer vehicles but what about high mileage? i'm talking about the ones with 250.XXX on the clock?? is it okay to do an oil change every 8000k?

[AWDTurboLuvr]

As long as you are using the proper, recommended oil (that is of high grade) there is not problem sticking with a 8000K oil change interval, unless your manufacturer calls for something else. That's what my car is on, using 0W-40 Mobil 1, and even after a slew of track days, my oil analysis was spot on. I highly recommend doing at least one oil analysis to see if you can detect excess bearing wear or additives breaking down early.

[q0192837465]

I have been changing mine (M1 0W40) every 12-13k km and it's running fine. Opened up the valve cover to change the seals and no sludge at all

[rageguy]

I've been following the recommended 6000km interval using Mobil1 5W-30 for my previous car and Royal Purple XPR 5W-30 for the current car. To be honest, just make sure you change your oil at the correct specified interval and you'll be fine. Mobil1 works just fine.

[CorneringArtist]

Oil filters...I just changed oil on my car and since I just bought it, I found out the PO goes to Jiffy Lube since 1. he mentioned it, and 2. there was a Pennzoil oil filter. Since I work at a dealership, I went with OEM (Toyota/Denso). Would I be correct in my assumption that most quick lube shops use Fram-quality filters, and if so, are they poorer in comparison to OEM?

Keep in mind I have read a couple of articles reviewing oil filters, and they say Napa Gold is pretty good. It's the Fram ones that bug me a bit.

[bcrdukes]

Oil filters...I just changed oil on my car and since I just bought it, I found out the PO goes to Jiffy Lube since 1. he mentioned it, and 2. there was a Pennzoil oil filter. Since I work at a dealership, I went with OEM (Toyota/Denso). Would I be correct in my assumption that most quick lube shops use Fram-quality filters, and if so, are they poorer in comparison to OEM?

Keep in mind I have read a couple of articles reviewing oil filters, and they say Napa Gold is pretty good. It's the Fram ones that bug me a bit.

FYI, word on the street is that Toyota's filters aren't as good as they used to be since Nippon Denso split up. I don't know this for a fact simply because I haven't driven my MR2 in ages. :D

Napa Gold, K&N, Wix & Purolator filters are supposedly very good.

[TypeRNammer]

Been using Napa Gold since ownership, no complaints here.

[Bahhbeehhaaaa]

Is it worth getting an OEM oil filter? vs Fram.

[skyxx]

Oil filters...I just changed oil on my car and since I just bought it, I found out the PO goes to Jiffy Lube since 1. he mentioned it, and 2. there was a Pennzoil oil filter. Since I work at a dealership, I went with OEM (Toyota/Denso). Would I be correct in my assumption that most quick lube shops use Fram-quality filters, and if so, are they poorer in comparison to OEM?

Keep in mind I have read a couple of articles reviewing oil filters, and they say Napa Gold is pretty good. It's the Fram ones that bug me a bit.

Pennzoil/Quaker State filters are now produced by Purolator. So it's safe to say it's a better overall filter compared to the older findings which were made by FRAM. Though running FRAM(extraguard, High mileage) for 5,000KM OCI should be fine but I'd stay away from all FRAMs other than their Extended Guard/Synthetic Filter. You'd be surprised to find that this particular filter is actually quite well built, 2 layer filter media, Metal end caps, ADBV.

If I remember correctly, some Honda filters are made by FRAM, but the delearship does sell two types apparently.

Don't forget, just because a filter is made with Metal end caps doesn't necessarily mean it's great. The number of pleats, flow, filter material, and the actual thickness of the filter housing plays a big role as well.

[hk20000]

Friends don't let friends use FRAM

[CorneringArtist]

Pennzoil/Quaker State filters are now produced by Purolator. So it's safe to say it's a better overall filter compared to the older findings which were made by FRAM. Though running FRAM(extraguard, High mileage) for 5,000KM OCI should be fine but I'd stay away from all FRAMs other than their Extended Guard/Synthetic Filter. You'd be surprised to find that this particular filter is actually quite well built, 2 layer filter media, Metal end caps, ADBV.

If I remember correctly, some Honda filters are made by FRAM, but the delearship does sell two types apparently.

Don't forget, just because a filter is made with Metal end caps doesn't necessarily mean it's great. The number of pleats, flow, filter material, and the actual thickness of the filter housing plays a big role as well.

That's surprising to know that Pennzoil filters are Purolator. The article I read was from a few years ago, and mentioned the Pennzoil filters were garbage. The vehicle in question is my 1990 Corolla GT-S, and when I compared my old filter to OEM, the Pennzoil looked shorter but was the same diameter, had a weaker shell, and I believe had a crappy paper material.

[skyxx]

In recent years, I believe 1-2 years ago. Pennzoil/Quaker changed their Oil filters to Purolator. Most common filters on the market are made of a hybrid blend of Paper and some (minor) synthetic fibres. Some have more, some have less. Ofcourse this is all according to cost. But in the end, even a cheapy filter can filter out decent stuff as long as you do your oil changes regularly.

Anyway, in the end. Do your research properly, Just because a lot of filters are made by Purolator, Wix etc etc doesn't mean it's Super awesome. On a 3-5 dollar filter that's made by either of them, the internals may be of decent grade but the housing might be fairly thin or weak. Though, If I had to choose between a cheapy FRAM or a purolator, ofcourse I'd choose the latter.

Anyway, I thought about cutting up my filters and posting pictures but I need a decent size Pipe cutter or an oil filter cutter. Those things are quite expensive and no, a can opener won't do.

[syee]

If I remember correctly, some Honda filters are made by FRAM, but the delearship does sell two types apparently.


This is true. The 15400-PLM-A01 is made by Filtech and the 15400-PLM-A02 is made by Honeywell (which is the same company that makes Fram).

[Death2Theft]

Since there are so many "good quality" oils out there, and everyone says dont use "crappy" oil lets list what kinds of oils are "crappy"

[Expresso]

OEM Toyota should be fine if you are doing regular oil changes. If you are going for extended intervals, then I would maybe look into something else. OEM Toyota is definitely better than your average FRAM though.

[Bahhbeehhaaaa]

a question for all of you, this is the first time i will be changing my own oil at home, and my driveway is slanted, do you think it would be dangerous if I jack my car up on the driveway and use jack stands or would I break any bylaws by doing my oil change on the street?

i don't think you will break any laws.. and is not safe at all.

[rageguy]

Yikes. Don't be on the news. Jacking your car up while on a slanted road is asking for instadeath.

[matrixfwd]

where do you guys get your oil changed (besides DIY)? I don't want to go to the dealer anymore (toyota). The oil change itself is not expensive, around $40, but when they do the bigger service every other time, it's like $200- $250 and when I read the list of what they did, it's mostly check this, check that, not really fixing or replacing anything.... I wouldn't mind paying $200 if they actually replaced something but most of the time it's a thorough inspection... maybe a tire rotation but i can get that for free at Costco.

[freakshow]

where do you guys get your oil changed (besides DIY)? I don't want to go to the dealer anymore (toyota). The oil change itself is not expensive, around $40, but when they do the bigger service every other time, it's like $200- $250 and when I read the list of what they did, it's mostly check this, check that, not really fixing or replacing anything.... I wouldn't mind paying $200 if they actually replaced something but most of the time it's a thorough inspection... maybe a tire rotation but i can get that for free at Costco.
Why don't you tell them to just do the oil change?

[DIEH4RD]

What's your guys opinion on high mileage vehicles (150KM+) running synthetic oil? I've heard it could eventually lead to oil leaks. What's your guys opinion on it?
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[Volvo-brickster]

for my beater with 300+ km i run this

http://balestech.com/images/supertech_float.jpg
+
http://i.walmartimages.com/i/p/00/07/45/09/91/0007450991078_500X500.jpg

ive been doing this for over 30,000km and it runs fine

mind you it burns about 1/2 a liter every 1000km or so

i change it every 3 months religiously

$15 and change :D

my weekend toy = OEM Motorcraft + Mobil 1

[CorneringArtist]

Why don't you tell them to just do the oil change?

This. You can decline the maintenance service, they're just trying to upsell you (I should know since I work at a Toyota dealer LOL).