[Gt-R R34]

Obvious, but now look @ the numbers done by Stats. Canada.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/households+hard+analysis+shows/3183438/story.html

B.C. households to be hit hard by HST, analysis shows


By Andrew A. Duffy , Victoria Times ColonistJune 22, 2010 11:24 AM



An analysis model prepared by Statistics Canada shows that the average B.C. household could take a hit of $521 next year as a result of the HST.
Photograph by: Mark Blinch, ReutersVICTORIA — The average B.C. household could take a hit of $521 to its bottom line next year as a result of the harmonized sales tax, according to a model prepared for the Victoria Times Colonist newspaper by Statistics Canada.


The change could range anywhere from $78 for households with single parents and one child to $801 for a married couple with no children, the figures show.


"There are certainly individuals and households that will feel the impact of this tax," said Dr. Herbert Schuetze, economics professor at the University of Victoria. "For example if you are unattached and 65 years or older we're talking about $262 a year. That's a considerable amount of money for some people."


At the request of the Victoria Times Colonist, Statistics Canada analyzed 15 different household types and 15 different income classifications using its social policy simulation database and model.


The model is used by the federal government and other organizations to analyze financial interactions between government and individuals.


For the HST analysis, it synthesized four databases — the Survey of Household Spending, Survey of Labour and Income Dynamics, EI claimant history and personal income tax returns — to establish a synthetic sample of B.C. households. The weighted total of households in the sample was 1.935 million.


Statistics Canada determined what that synthetic sample spent on various items, its household income and characteristics and then followed the rules of the income tax system and applied all of the rebates, tax credits and rules surrounding the HST and GST to the sample to determine the impact of the tax.


The figures suggest the more money households bring in, the more they will pay out.


For example, a household with an annual income of $40,000 to $50,000 will pay $253 more because of the HST, while households in the $80,000 to $90,000 range will pay $1,128 more annually.


"It looks like families get hit pretty hard," Schuetze said.


Statistics Canada model incorporated a number of initiatives designed to offset the effects of the tax.


Those include a B.C. HST credit of up to $230 annually to low-income households, an increase to the personal tax credit, a rebate for home energy and point-of-sale rebates for a number of other items.


Yet each of the 30 household types for which Statistics Canada provided figures shows some negative impact as a result of the HST.


That does not jibe with material in the March provincial budget, although the parameters for the government's analysis were not the same as those used by Statistics Canada.


The budget documents showed a family of four with $30,000 of income coming out ahead $535 annually, while a family of four with an income of $60,000 would spend an extra $107 a year and a family of four with an income of $90,000 would spend $178.


According to the province, single individuals with an income of $80,000 faced a $314 increase in spending, while single people with $25,000 incomes would end up $2 ahead and a senior couple with an income of $30,000 up $1 annually.


The model Statistics Canada used for the Victoria Times Colonist analysis did not take into account the effect of the HST on housing, which is significant.


Previously new homes were exempt from provincial sales tax. Starting July 1, they will be subject to the HST, although purchasers will be eligible for a rebate on the provincial portion of the tax up to a maximum of $26,250.


The model also assumed all costs to business as well as savings a business might realize as a result of the HST would be passed on to consumers.


But perhaps the largest unknown is behavioural change caused by the new tax.


Schuetze said that is a significant caveat.


"It may be an overestimation of the impact in part because there's no change in consumption assumed here," he said. The Statistics Canada model assumed households would spend as much as they did pre-HST, something that is unlikely to happen.


Indeed dozens of Victoria residents for this series said they would be cutting back on unnecessary expenditures after July 1.


"I may have to make some cutbacks like eating out and I will have to think more before I spend," said Jeff McKay, a 33-year-old executive with Oak Bay Marine Group.


"I will have to be more careful," said Caitlin Flanders, 24, who works for the Queen's Printer. "Going out for coffee or lunches, which I don't do that much anyway, I won't do as often because of that tax."


The “Real” Fight HST Hit List
Here is a list of the items previously exempt from PST that will now have HST applied to them at 7% additional.
Accounting
Admission Fees
Advertising
Airline tickets
Animal feeds (hay is exempt)
Appliance repair & maintenance
Architects
Art Galleries Admission
Attractions / Events
Ballet Lessons
Basic Cable TV
Bicycles
Campgrounds
Cigarettes / Cigars
Catering
Chinese medicine
Clothing –adult sized children
Clothing – used adult (less than $100)
Coffee shops
Commercial Leases
Compost
Computer servicing
Concert Tickets
Condo management fees
Consulting services
Conveyance fees
Delivery Services
Dietary supplements
Dry cleaning
Driving Range fees
Electronics repair
Energy equipment
Esthetician Services
Fast food – Beverages
Fire extinguishers
First aid kits
Fishing charters
Fitness Club memberships
Fitness Trainers
Food producing trees and plants
Freight (in BC)
Funeral services
Golf fees
Grass Cutting
Hair cuts
Hall rental
Health equipment
Helmets
Hockey tickets
Hockey rink rentals
Home appraisals
Home inspections
Home maintenance
Home renovations (Labour)
Horse Boarding
Horse Shows
Horse riding lessons
House Cleaning services
Insulation
Interior design services
Investment Counseling fees
Landscaping
Life jackets
Limousine rentals
Magazines/ newspapers
Marketing services
Massage therapy
Membership fees
Moorage
Museum admissions
Movies / Theatre
Moving Costs
Music MP3 downloads
Naturopathy
New Homes (some rebates applicable)
Nicotine replacements
Non-prescription meds
Painting
Parking
Photography
Postage
Private Bus fares
Printing
Rail travel (originating in BC)
Real estate fees
Reflexology
Rentals for Weddings, Canopy, Tuxedo etc.
Reroofing House
Restaurant meals
RV parks
Safety equipment (Not all safety and Energy Equipment is affected)
School supplies
Shoe repairs
Skiing
Smoke detectors
Snow removal
Solar power
Some groceries
Spa services
Sports Training / Lessons
Storage lockers
Tailoring
Taxi fares
Telephone (Basic Charge for landlines will be affected)
Theatre admissions
Veterinarian
Video downloads
Vitamins
Wedding Planner
Windows (energy star)

Rentals / Strata fees (Though they are HST exempt, most people will notice increases brought on by an increase in maintenance costs and other costs associated with owning Rental and Strata properties)
Used cars / trucks / boats / non-turbine aircraft (Private Sale will have an additional 5% tax, it is not called HST)
Please also note that the reduction on liquor will be made up by simply increasing the mark-up!

[q0192837465]

I think wut's gonna happen is that business will pass on savings to consumers in the beginning as a gimmick to maintian ppl's spending habits. Then those savings will be slowly withdrawn so eventually ppl will consume like the pre-HST days but in effect give businesses a larger margin. In the end consumer will still be shafted but at least they can adapt to a smaller stick before moving up to a bigger stick.

[TheNewGirl]

It depends hugely on the business. I work in a retail company that is reliant on people's discressionary spending. If their pool of "fun" money is limited then we're actually going to have less money in the end.

I don't think that the government is taking into account the huge impact this is going to have on the service and retail sector.

[q0192837465]

It depends hugely on the business. I work in a retail company that is reliant on people's discressionary spending. If their pool of "fun" money is limited then we're actually going to have less money in the end.

I don't think that the government is taking into account the huge impact this is going to have on the service and retail sector.

Small business r gonna choke for sure. But the good thing is that once ppl r used to the idea of HST, they'll start spending again. North American has high consumption and we'r programmed to spend spend spend. As long as business can ride out for first 3-6 months, things should be back to "normal".

my 0.02

[Greenstoner]

more HST news ? fuck, im tired of these crap news... since im living in BC, im just gonna have to deal with it

[mpr]

Or you can do something about it

http://www.saynotohstinbc.ca/

Got few weeks left.

[TheNewGirl]

Or you can do something about it

http://www.saynotohstinbc.ca/

Got few weeks left.

I so signed on the first week.

[taylor192]

This was pointed out on another forum:

Even if BC successfully fights the HST, it has already been passed at the federal level and would go through.

[taylor192]

Indeed dozens of Victoria residents for this series said they would be cutting back on unnecessary expenditures after July 1.

"I may have to make some cutbacks like eating out and I will have to think more before I spend," said Jeff McKay, a 33-year-old executive with Oak Bay Marine Group.

"I will have to be more careful," said Caitlin Flanders, 24, who works for the Queen's Printer. "Going out for coffee or lunches, which I don't do that much anyway, I won't do as often because of that tax."
I dare anyone here to name something that will cost more after HST other than eating out, sports and travel. These are all luxuries, which if you can afford them, you can afford to pay tax on them, and I'm surprised were not taxed previously.

These people are idiots and the media just as dumb for reporting it:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/public_opinion.png

[satek]

HST is going to happen if you you like it or not. It sucks donkey dick.

[Yc]

Yes sports and travel could be luxuries, but for ratio sake its far smaller than food comsumption, but gov't cant just tax the rich, b/c they need money from them, so instead they just do it on everyone

[TheNewGirl]

I dare anyone here to name something that will cost more after HST other than eating out, sports and travel. These are all luxuries, which if you can afford them, you can afford to pay tax on them, and I'm surprised were not taxed previously.

These people are idiots and the media just as dumb for reporting it:



My 10 year old daughter already wears women's small clothing.
Are her clothes a luxury? Her shoes?

School supplies were previously exempt. Are those luxuries?

Any groceries beyond absolute staples (bread, milk, eggs, meat, produce, flour) are now taxed with both taxes. Congradulations you want to eat anything prepared at all, need some tomato sauce for your pasta? You pay HST now. Want some spices for your steak? That too.

Summer camp for kids? Sports programs for children? All previously only 5% tax now 12%. That's enough to break the bank and make the differance between parents being able to afford to have thier kids be in sports and not. Especially if they have more then one. And in the land of fat kids, I don't consider swimming lessons and soccar camp luxuries. They're important.

I think the notion that this is a "luxury" tax is absolutely insane. As is the idea that it's only going to cost the average family "$500" a year. I'm looking at $500 between now and September. For one child.

For single folks that might not sound like a lot. For me that's a good chunk of change in the time of year where my expenses are at their highest already.

[q0192837465]

My 10 year old daughter already wears women's small clothing.
Are her clothes a luxury? Her shoes?

School supplies were previously exempt. Are those luxuries?

Any groceries beyond absolute staples (bread, milk, eggs, meat, produce, flour) are now taxed with both taxes. Congradulations you want to eat anything prepared at all, need some tomato sauce for your pasta? You pay HST now. Want some spices for your steak? That too.

Summer camp for kids? Sports programs for children? All previously only 5% tax now 12%. That's enough to break the bank and make the differance between parents being able to afford to have thier kids be in sports and not. Especially if they have more then one. And in the land of fat kids, I don't consider swimming lessons and soccar camp luxuries. They're important.

I think the notion that this is a "luxury" tax is absolutely insane. As is the idea that it's only going to cost the average family "$500" a year. I'm looking at $500 between now and September. For one child.

For single folks that might not sound like a lot. For me that's a good chunk of change in the time of year where my expenses are at their highest already.

I feel you pain.

The other side of the argument is that prices may drop so at the end it evens out. And more income tax credit = more take home money.

It's hard to say right now how it's gonna pan out. We'll be recieving a cheque in July to somewhat offset the initial hit of the tax. Hope things will turn out fine.

[Lomac]

I feel you pain.

The other side of the argument is that prices may drop so at the end it evens out. And more income tax credit = more take home money.

It's hard to say right now how it's gonna pan out. We'll be recieving a cheque in July to somewhat offset the initial hit of the tax. Hope things will turn out fine.

I know many businesses wont be cutting prices. I work at a major retail chain (albeit not at a salesperson level) and, because the prices are set at a national level in Ontario, we wont be lowering our prices. This is also a company that caters largely to school supplies, which were once tax exempt. And before anyone says anything, only certain school supplies will remain HST exempt. Many items wont be now.

[TheNewGirl]

Unfortunitely, most chains aren't likely to lower their prices. And small businesses are so crunched right now that they need the extra margin to survive. I don't forsee a lot of price decreases with the HST. I hope though that I'm wrong in that assumption.

Are there ANY school supplies that are exempt still? When I was at the HST seminar last week they told me non. Mind you they also said that Natives would retain their exempt status which it was revealed today they will not. So they don't seem to know much at these stupid things.

[orange7]

HST is going to benifit chinese owned restaurants.

[Amuse]

The other side of the argument is that prices may drop so at the end it evens out.
LOL prices will drop. Yeah right. Not in BC.
When businesses say their stuff will drop in price, what they mean is just a few cents.
Gas prices will go up, not drop.

[q0192837465]

LOL prices will drop. Yeah right. Not in BC.
Gas prices will go up, not drop.


lol, just playing the devil's advocate. I highly doubt businesses will cut their margin for the "greater good" but it's always good to have hope.

HST is going to benifit chinese owned restaurants.

sad but true. Cash transactions seem mighty attractive these days.

[Amuse]

Or you can do something about it

http://www.saynotohstinbc.ca/

Got few weeks left.
Didn't it go past 10 or 15%? All that effort for nothing? Gordo will just think it's a joke..

[!Yaminashi]

[QUOTE=TheNewGirl;7001258

I don't think that the government is taking into account the huge impact this is going to have on the service and retail sector.[/QUOTE]

Since when does the government take how anything will affect anybody into account?

[StylinRed]

Didn't it go past 10 or 15%? All that effort for nothing? Gordo will just think it's a joke..

their goal right now is like 50% of the voting population



the signatures will force the govt to either repeal the tax or bring it into a referendum

the results of the referendum though can be rejected by the govt

so although Campbell is done.. i don't think the Liberal Party wants to commit political suicide

[q0192837465]

^ if HST is demolished, will we have to pay back the money get got from the Feds?

[raygunpk]

^ if HST is demolished, will we have to pay back the money get got from the Feds?

no, the government states that we would haBZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

[johny]

I dare anyone here to name something that will cost more after HST other than eating out, sports and travel. These are all luxuries, which if you can afford them, you can afford to pay tax on them, and I'm surprised were not taxed previously.

car repairs, home repairs etc. basicly any labour is now taxed I believe.

[PDA_86]

My parents were talking the other day about raising the prices on our food menu in our shop. Now for a decent lunchbox would cost someone $8.00 instead of $6.50.

[sunny_j]

My parents were talking the other day about raising the prices on our food menu in our shop. Now for a decent lunchbox would cost someone $8.00 instead of $6.50.

whats the shop called?

[taylor192]

My 10 year old daughter already wears women's small clothing.
Are her clothes a luxury? Her shoes?

School supplies were previously exempt. Are those luxuries?

Any groceries beyond absolute staples (bread, milk, eggs, meat, produce, flour) are now taxed with both taxes. Congradulations you want to eat anything prepared at all, need some tomato sauce for your pasta? You pay HST now. Want some spices for your steak? That too.

Summer camp for kids? Sports programs for children? All previously only 5% tax now 12%. That's enough to break the bank and make the differance between parents being able to afford to have thier kids be in sports and not. Especially if they have more then one. And in the land of fat kids, I don't consider swimming lessons and soccar camp luxuries. They're important.

I think the notion that this is a "luxury" tax is absolutely insane. As is the idea that it's only going to cost the average family "$500" a year. I'm looking at $500 between now and September. For one child.

For single folks that might not sound like a lot. For me that's a good chunk of change in the time of year where my expenses are at their highest already.
Sorry dude, I assume this forum is mostly young people without families so like you point out, they would be affected very little outside of the typical luxuries.

As for your sob story - save the tears. 7% is not going to break the bank for sending your kid to summer camp. If $500 is 7% extra, you're spending $7100 on that one child, or $2K/mn between now and Sept! If you can afford to spend like that, you're making enough you can afford to pay your fair of tax on these programs.

So you're either lying about who much $500 affects you, or about it being $500. Take your pick, either makes your point moot.

PS: I eat mostly fresh food, very little prepared other than pasta and sauce which is such a small portion of my grocery spending it will not affect me. For the unheathly person who eats all processed/frozen crap, they should be forced to pay tax on it.

[taylor192]

Yes sports and travel could be luxuries, but for ratio sake its far smaller than food comsumption, but gov't cant just tax the rich, b/c they need money from them, so instead they just do it on everyone
Everyone should pay their fair share of taxes.

I support consumption taxes like the HST. Want to pay less tax - consume less. It is about time we punish those who spend, we cannot continue an economy based on 70% retail spending and mounting debt - it will eventually collapse under its own weight.

[Lomac]

Sorry dude, I assume this forum is mostly young people without families so like you point out, they would be affected very little outside of the typical luxuries.

As for your sob story - save the tears. 7% is not going to break the bank for sending your kid to summer camp. If $500 is 7% extra, you're spending $7100 on that one child, or $2K/mn between now and Sept! If you can afford to spend like that, you're making enough you can afford to pay your fair of tax on these programs.

So you're either lying about who much $500 affects you, or about it being $500. Take your pick, either makes your point moot.

PS: I eat mostly fresh food, very little prepared other than pasta and sauce which is such a small portion of my grocery spending it will not affect me. For the unheathly person who eats all processed/frozen crap, they should be forced to pay tax on it.

All-day day care can cost between $500-$2000/month for one child, depending where in the GVRD you live. While some of it can be subsidized by the government, it's often cheaper for parents to send their kids to summer camp. As a result of the high costs of day care, parent(s) are now paying an extra tax in order to find a cheaper alternative. And yes, while it's often lighter on the wallet to do summer camp, that extra money parents were able to save would now be quickly gobbled up by the extra tax.

[TheNewGirl]

All-day day care can cost between $500-$2000/month for one child, depending where in the GVRD you live. While some of it can be subsidized by the government, it's often cheaper for parents to send their kids to summer camp. As a result of the high costs of day care, parent(s) are now paying an extra tax in order to find a cheaper alternative. And yes, while it's often lighter on the wallet to do summer camp, that extra money parents were able to save would now be quickly gobbled up by the extra tax.

Exactly.

Look at right now. I either pay $200/week for all daycare (daycare's still taxfree). Instead I have sent my child to summer camp. Away camp is about $200/week through the cub scouts, and day camp which is about $150 and gives me a $50 break a week that I use that.

Camp is now (with taxes) $224 and day camp now $168. Right there for the 10 weeks of child care I need to cover over the course of the summer that's costing me 24 x 3 = 72, 18 x 7 = 126.... so just in child care/activities alone $198. When you're talking childcare for the summer being between 1500 and 2000 PER child, a $198 increase per kid is a big big deal.

I have absolutely no idea how families with more then one child survive the summers.

Taylor> You said you dared anyone to come up with anything not a luxury that it effects. I gave you a list. One day you'll have kids too. I don't imagine you'll be so blaise about it all.

Oh though for our younger members... tuition and text books. University just got that much more expensive.

[adambomb]

Can any of you anti-HST supporters give me an idea of how the gov't can collect revenue without the HST? Our population is growing and our service needs are also growing. Show me a major metropolitan city in Canada that has shown a decrease in population.

Can you also give me a list of services you are willing to see cut if the HST does not pass? Perhaps more cuts to public schools, or less money spent on our highway infrastructure (traffic jams are fun). How abouts cuts to old age pensions since the its seems many of our parents are approaching the retirement age. Let's cut their benefits before they are able to cash them in. So when they are too old and weak to work, they'll all have to move back in with us, their kids. The same kids who just spent $300,000 on a 2bd apartment.

Stop looking at the pennies your are losing from increased costs at kids camp and look at the economical benefits in the long run. In the long run, the HST will benefit the people who mean the most to you....Your kids.

[Amuse]

For stores, like one that sells Chinese home made frozen dim sum, that charge no tax now, will they charge any tax after July 1st?

[orange7]

For stores, like one that sells Chinese home made frozen dim sum, that charge no tax now, will they charge any tax after July 1st?

probably just increase the price and keep the additional earning, after all it is ran by Chinese.

[TheNewGirl]

adambomb that is NOT why the Government origionally said it needed the HST. Infact initially they tried to claim it was revenue neutral and that it's only benifit was in lowering busines costs and attracting new business.

I do understand how it will do this, by essentially neutralizing the provincial tax from a business to business point of view, it's put BC on equal footing with Alberta when it comes to businesses deciding where to locate their offices on the west coast. This is the biggest (perhaps only) benifit of the HST. It will create jobs. This is true. In the very next 10 years though, job shortage is unlikely to be a problem given the retirement projections. Infact in BC we're projected to have over 20%+ of our population over retirement age inside this decade.

The Liberal government has also shifted the provincial economy away from goods and trade and towards a heavier focus on a tourism & service base and then installed a tax that hampers exactly that - this makes absolutely no financial sense to me. If they were focusing on attracting industry and production the HST would make a great deal more sense (as it does in Ont.). I don't know if anyone knows the projected impact on the tourism industry (yes travel is a luxury but many in this province make their bread and butter from those who travel), I'm curious to see it.

Regardless of their claims it's undeniable the government of BC will gain additional revenue from the implimentation of the HST. Both from the 1.9 billion they took from the federal government and the additional goods now subject to the provincial portion of the HST.

Are they spending more on education because of it? No. They're cutting bugets. Recently the provincial government negotiated a wage increase for the teachers union even and neglected to increase funding for the schools who have to pay it to compensate them for it. The province would be better served letting individual districts negotiate with the teachers, or at least not hamstringing the school districts by knowingly increasing thier costs without increasing thier funding accordingly.

Are they spending more on Health Care because of it? No. They're cutting bugets. The province would be better served reducing the massive duplication of costs between fraser and vancouver coastal health and amalgamating them then forcing them, having reduced combined over head, to actually adhere to their bugets.

Are they spending more on streets? Actually most of the large scale infostructure upgrades have been funded with either 1. Olympic money or 2. federal economic stimuli money. Municipalities, also, manage the maintanince of local road ways, funded via property taxes. This is not impacted by the HST.

Will the HST change old age pensions (I assume you mean CPP)? No those are federally managed not provincially. The federal government gets no extra $ due to the HST they just get to use it immediately which does impact short term/stimuli type spending but doesn't impact long term projects such as pensions. The money that goes into these come from you and your employer as well, not HST/PST/GST.

Do you know that the premire of BC makes more a year then the president of the United States (400K/year for Campbell, 300K/year for Obama). No private jet or white house but still, all his living/travel expenses are covered for his term. Do you know that many other civil servants make in that ballpark as well? As well as many of the heads of crown corperations (ICBC, BC Hydro, Work Safe, BC Ferries, Translink, The BC Liquor Commision... the list is long). Also our MLAs and MPs are running up 200 - 600K/year personal expenses that come out of our pockets?

The government could start by trimming the top 10% of civil servant's wages by 10%. That would literally save millions a year and be the fiscally responsible first move to balancing their buget. They've been demanding that we, those of us with the least money in the province tighten our belts yet they don't do so themselves. A guy is being paid 400K of YOUR money a year to lie to you about the fiscal reality of this province. That shouldn't be okay with you. It isn't okay with me.

And that's just economics, it doesn't even touch the ethical autrocity of a government believing they're a tier above the people they're suposed to be representing. Or bald faced lies that the liberal government have spewed in regards to their bringing about the HST.

/rant

[1exotic]

lol chill shawty

[_Hotsauce_]

I dare anyone here to name something that will cost more after HST other than eating out, sports and travel. These are all luxuries, which if you can afford them, you can afford to pay tax on them, and I'm surprised were not taxed previously.

These people are idiots and the media just as dumb for reporting it:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/public_opinion.png

Bicycles and everything related to Bicycles are included. I rode a bike because it's so much faster and easier then commuting by bus or car , it doesn't pollute, it has much much lower maintenance costs per year, and it keeps me in shape. I am now paying tax on my mode of transportation.

Also, energy products like solar panels. "Because we wouldn't want people to get out of their cars and use solar power or anything" Lets tax it more and make it even less appealing to the public.

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

fuck u HST, along with all these bullshit taxes


jesus

[MarkyMark]

If I made 400k a year I could give a fuck about the HST too, you just have to see the HST through Campbells eyes and wallet
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[Ducdesmo]

Everyone should pay their fair share of taxes.

I support consumption taxes like the HST. Want to pay less tax - consume less. It is about time we punish those who spend, we cannot continue an economy based on 70% retail spending and mounting debt - it will eventually collapse under its own weight.

Our income/debt ratio is at all time high because of easy credit/low interest rate. You have Carney (who used to work for Goldman Sachs) and Flaherty to thank for that. So you think taxing is the answer? We all pay our fair share in taxes already...everything ranging from your basic income tax to liquor to carbon tax (which is a complete tax grab BTW). Do you think you are driving less because of it? NO.

Do you think the Vancouverites will purchase less groceries due to HST? NO. Maybe the poor because they can't fuking afford to.

How about raising interest rates so people save? Consume less (import) and produce more (export)? Cut government spendings? Let the free market work and fuk any future bailouts.

G20 is coming in at close to 1 billion dollars for a 3 day scam and according to CSIS, there is a very low terrorist risk. The government also spend 2 billion dollars on a gun registry database system that some kid at UBC could have wrote as a school project. Harper and these politicians are blowing your hard earned money like nothing, and you think we need to pay more taxes to support such ventures. The propaganda is well underway and we will see an abundance of new tax laws underway as long as the majority are continually lead to believe we need it.

If you really want to know why our 10 year surplus streak has turned into a deficit, take a hard look at the kind of crap the Harper government is spending their money on and let me know if you still think we need the HST.

[Tapioca]

I do understand how it will do this, by essentially neutralizing the provincial tax from a business to business point of view, it's put BC on equal footing with Alberta when it comes to businesses deciding where to locate their offices on the west coast. This is the biggest (perhaps only) benifit of the HST. It will create jobs. This is true. In the very next 10 years though, job shortage is unlikely to be a problem given the retirement projections. Infact in BC we're projected to have over 20%+ of our population over retirement age inside this decade.

In my personal opinion, the looming labour shortage will never materialize because boomers will be working until the day they die to maintain their lifestyles. Employers are no longer interested in hiring younger people and developing them - they instead contract out and hire retirees as consultants.


The Liberal government has also shifted the provincial economy away from goods and trade and towards a heavier focus on a tourism & service base and then installed a tax that hampers exactly that - this makes absolutely no financial sense to me. If they were focusing on attracting industry and production the HST would make a great deal more sense (as it does in Ont.). I don't know if anyone knows the projected impact on the tourism industry (yes travel is a luxury but many in this province make their bread and butter from those who travel), I'm curious to see it.

The focus of this government is resource development in the Peace River region as well as possibly off-shore drilling. Mining and petroleum companies will benefit from the HST, as well as foresters. In my opinion (and based on what I have seen because I happen to be a public servant myself), this will be the bread and butter of the BC economy.


Regardless of their claims it's undeniable the government of BC will gain additional revenue from the implimentation of the HST. Both from the 1.9 billion they took from the federal government and the additional goods now subject to the provincial portion of the HST.

Yep. Would you turn away 1.9 billion based on principle alone? I highly doubt it.


The government could start by trimming the top 10% of civil servant's wages by 10%. That would literally save millions a year and be the fiscally responsible first move to balancing their buget. They've been demanding that we, those of us with the least money in the province tighten our belts yet they don't do so themselves. A guy is being paid 400K of YOUR money a year to lie to you about the fiscal reality of this province. That shouldn't be okay with you. It isn't okay with me.

I understand where you're coming from and I am personally dismayed at the mis-management of various public agencies. But, we could easily have a debate about what's wrong with health care in this province (and country) without wading into budgets. And we could with the other public programs too.

Sure, skimming the salaries would save millions, but the provincial treasury needs billions, not millions which is why Campbell took the 1.9 billion from the feds to mitigate the deficit.


And that's just economics, it doesn't even touch the ethical autrocity of a government believing they're a tier above the people they're suposed to be representing. Or bald faced lies that the liberal government have spewed in regards to their bringing about the HST.

Okay, so you're going to vote the NDP in the next election?


If you really want to know why our 10 year surplus streak has turned into a deficit, take a hard look at the kind of crap the Harper government is spending their money on and let me know if you still think we need the HST.

Which is why cutting the GST was a terrible move in the long-term.

[Hehe]

The HST is simple. It's a neutral (arguably, see later part of my post) tax that shifts taxation from Businesses to consumers.

In a perfect economic point of view, businesses will lower the price (due to a lower cost+new competition) and whatever the consumer paid will be returned to their pocket eventually.

However, in real world, there are too many factors to consider. Would a business lower its price when having a lower cost? Possibly, but NEVER if the consumer is willing to pay for it. The reasoning is very simple, if the effect of HST brings them higher amount of profit, even at a lower demand, they won't move from there. Why would they want to return to the original point?

Furthermore, how long exactly would it take for the market to react and adjust the price? In simple economic, the P(Price) is a constant given for most of the businesses. Now with the demand being lower, but the profit being higher, they mostly cancel out each other. How long will the demand become low enough for the profit start to suffer and P starts to move? a year? 5? 10? no one can tell... Until then, all BC residents have to suffer the consequence from it. As a BC resident myself, this is not a desirable effect. Hell, moving to Alberta or try to find a job in the US start to look more and more attractive.

It's true that HST might help to attract future employers to the province, but for me at least, I'm 27 now and it's a stage where I don't have time to wait for this to normalize. It might sound selfish, but isn't BC government or any of you PRO-HST'r the same? We only consider what's best for ourselves, and right now, HST is good for very small portion of people in BC. Hence, I'm against it.

[TheNewGirl]

Tapioca> I have NO idea who I'm going to vote for.

Neither the Liberals or the NDP satisfy my needs for a government that's both fiscaly and ethically responsible. And I have no alternative choices that are genuinely viable.

Maybe Conservative since the BC Conservative Party's making a come back? Though they stand against a lot of things I believe to be important I'm sick of the devils I know in this province.

What I would LIKE is a real liberal party that's actually ideologically liberal not a conservativish party that calls itself liberal.

[Ronin]

If people consume less, that's less money in our city's economy. Apart from eating out, not much of the HST is going to affect me since I don't have kids. The study shows what I thought, that this is mostly going to affect families with children.

The part that gets me is that they're upping taxes and blowing all sorts of money putting stupid bike lanes downtown and supporting hippie assholes.

[TheNewGirl]

The bike lanes are funded by city of Vancouver dollars. Again that's municiple money it comes from property taxes. Unless you live in the city of Vancouver, that's not your dime, don't worry about it :).

[Ducdesmo]

Tapioca> I have NO idea who I'm going to vote for.

Neither the Liberals or the NDP satisfy my needs for a government that's both fiscaly and ethically responsible. And I have no alternative choices that are genuinely viable.

Maybe Conservative since the BC Conservative Party's making a come back? Though they stand against a lot of things I believe to be important I'm sick of the devils I know in this province.

What I would LIKE is a real liberal party that's actually ideologically liberal not a conservativish party that calls itself liberal.

Sorry to tell you this, but it's the same people running the show now matter who you vote for.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[taylor192]

Camp is now (with taxes) $224 and day camp now $168. Right there for the 10 weeks of child care I need to cover over the course of the summer that's costing me 24 x 3 = 72, 18 x 7 = 126.... so just in child care/activities alone $198. When you're talking childcare for the summer being between 1500 and 2000 PER child, a $198 increase per kid is a big big deal.

I have absolutely no idea how families with more then one child survive the summers.

Taylor> You said you dared anyone to come up with anything not a luxury that it effects. I gave you a list. One day you'll have kids too. I don't imagine you'll be so blaise about it all.
So your $500 just became $198?

My GF has a daughter so I am very aware of how the HST will affect prices for kids. I agree, it sucks, yet its not the backbreaking numbers, ie $500 ahem $200, that drama queens are fear mongering.

What is the alternative? Business needs to be more competitive internationally, and giving them tax breaks to compete with countries with similar tax breaks will certainly help. The alternative is to subsidize business (never good) or to cut business taxes and raise personal taxes.

Oh though for our younger members... tuition and text books. University just got that much more expensive.
I have no problem with this. University in Canada is cheap and we're churning out too many grads with worthless degrees.

Do you know that the premire of BC makes more a year then the president of the United States (400K/year for Campbell, 300K/year for Obama). No private jet or white house but still, all his living/travel expenses are covered for his term. Do you know that many other civil servants make in that ballpark as well? As well as many of the heads of crown corperations (ICBC, BC Hydro, Work Safe, BC Ferries, Translink, The BC Liquor Commision... the list is long). Also our MLAs and MPs are running up 200 - 600K/year personal expenses that come out of our pockets?

The government could start by trimming the top 10% of civil servant's wages by 10%. That would literally save millions a year and be the fiscally responsible first move to balancing their buget. They've been demanding that we, those of us with the least money in the province tighten our belts yet they don't do so themselves. A guy is being paid 400K of YOUR money a year to lie to you about the fiscal reality of this province. That shouldn't be okay with you. It isn't okay with me.
I moved from Ottawa and saw all this first hand. I agree 100% with you on this.

Bicycles and everything related to Bicycles are included. I rode a bike because it's so much faster and easier then commuting by bus or car , it doesn't pollute, it has much much lower maintenance costs per year, and it keeps me in shape. I am now paying tax on my mode of transportation.

Also, energy products like solar panels. "Because we wouldn't want people to get out of their cars and use solar power or anything" Lets tax it more and make it even less appealing to the public.
The HST is not going to make biking any less appealing.

I also bike so I feel your pain, yet if dedicated bike lanes cannot convince more people to ride, a little more tax isn't going to hurt much.

Regardless of their claims it's undeniable the government of BC will gain additional revenue from the implimentation of the HST. Both from the 1.9 billion they took from the federal government and the additional goods now subject to the provincial portion of the HST.
The Atlantic provinces did not, they actually lost money. They are not industry heavy like Ontario either.
Are they spending more on education because of it? No. They're cutting bugets. Recently the provincial government negotiated a wage increase for the teachers union even and neglected to increase funding for the schools who have to pay it to compensate them for it. The province would be better served letting individual districts negotiate with the teachers, or at least not hamstringing the school districts by knowingly increasing thier costs without increasing thier funding accordingly.
Unions suck, and are sucking the budgets dry. This is not a government problem, this is a union problem.
The province would be better served reducing the massive duplication of costs between fraser and vancouver coastal health and amalgamating them then forcing them, having reduced combined over head, to actually adhere to their bugets.
Amen!
Are they spending more on streets? Actually most of the large scale infostructure upgrades have been funded with either 1. Olympic money or 2. federal economic stimuli money. Municipalities, also, manage the maintanince of local road ways, funded via property taxes. This is not impacted by the HST.
I still don't understand why the GVA has not amalgamated yet. There is so much duplication of services in the various cities that could easily be saved.

[_Hotsauce_]

If people consume less, that's less money in our city's economy. Apart from eating out, not much of the HST is going to affect me since I don't have kids. The study shows what I thought, that this is mostly going to affect families with children.

The part that gets me is that they're upping taxes and blowing all sorts of money putting stupid bike lanes downtown and supporting hippie assholes.

I'm neither a happy, nor an asshole, and I ride a bike. Way to generalize.

[Milhouse]

If people consume less, that's less money in our city's economy.
More people will buy groceries and stuff over the border, since after July 1st, no tax for Canadians in Washington.

[tool001]

so the general idea is business will pass on the saving?
how many fucking times u see businesses reduce cost.
gas prices went up 2 years ago.. prices for everything shot up, price of gas went down, did price for services -retail go back down... no..

businesses never reduce cost.

[TheNewGirl]

Taylor the $198 is for childcare alone. That's not even getting into school supplies, activities for the fall & clothing. It is the biggest chunk of it but the $20 here, $30 there will adds up quick for the rest. It's not fear mongering. That's the reality that those of us who buget ahead deal with now. And those of us who don't will just be suprised with later.

Any how I was using myself mostly as an example of how this is going to impact most BC families more then it was my intention to bitch about my personal costs.

There's a LOT of places where as a province we can cut costs and save more then we will make with the additional cash grabs from the HST and that will make the province run more efficently as a whole.

[Gt-R R34]

*updated list on first posting that HST affects.

[Tapioca]

More people will buy groceries and stuff over the border, since after July 1st, no tax for Canadians in Washington.

Unless you live in White Rock, Aldergrove, or some other community within walking distance of the border, how cost effective is it to buy your groceries and other household basics across the border? When you factor in your time, dealing with border guards who are not necessarily pleasant, and gas, is it really worth saving a buck on a jug of milk?

And cross-border shopping for other goods, like electronics, luxury clothing, etc. is going to happen anyway regardless of the HST.

[taylor192]

There's a LOT of places where as a province we can cut costs and save more then we will make with the additional cash grabs from the HST and that will make the province run more efficently as a whole.
You're confusing very different issues.

The HST is revenue neutral, and the Atlantic provinces actually lost tax revenue after switching. The HST is not meant to be an additional cash grab.

The HST has nothing to do with making the province more efficient, nor program cuts. That's a different topic. Remember - revenue neutral and in practice, revenue lost.

The HST is meant to make BC business more competitive against places where business is not taxed. As you pointed out, this province is being turned into a tourism/service economy as industry leaves to tax-advantaged areas. The HST is meant to help bring industry here as BC becomes tax-advantaged.

The HST will do something you've commented on in this thread: reduce government spending. They are laying off PST employees as now we don't need a provincial and federal office to administer taxes separately.

so the general idea is business will pass on the saving?
how many fucking times u see businesses reduce cost.
gas prices went up 2 years ago.. prices for everything shot up, price of gas went down, did price for services -retail go back down... no..

businesses never reduce cost.
How old are you?

Did you live through the GST being implemented all all these same arguments being made? Studies showed business did pass on the savings, cause consumer spending was in the toilet cause if you remember - we were in a recession then.

Realistically we're still in a recession in Canada, since GDP gains have been driven almost entirely by housing which has been subsidized to bring sales forward. Unemployment has not dropped significantly, and what drops there were can be attributed to part time employment eroding the quality of employment.

Look around at the deals still to get consumers spending. If sales drop off a cliff due to the HST, business will cut prices further. It happened before, it'll happen again.

[Tapioca]

I think most people get the fact that the tax is revenue-neutral. The problem is that many see this tax as a "tax shift" from the average joe to big businesses.

Then again, most people work for businesses of some sort, so the savings are going to be held by someone. The key is to either realize those savings in the form of capital investments (new computers, new staff, etc.), salary raises, or to put it bluntly, become a business owner yourself.

[the_law82]

You're confusing very different issues.

The HST is revenue neutral, and the Atlantic provinces actually lost tax revenue after switching. The HST is not meant to be an additional cash grab.

The HST has nothing to do with making the province more efficient, nor program cuts. That's a different topic. Remember - revenue neutral and in practice, revenue lost.

The HST is meant to make BC business more competitive against places where business is not taxed. As you pointed out, this province is being turned into a tourism/service economy as industry leaves to tax-advantaged areas. The HST is meant to help bring industry here as BC becomes tax-advantaged.

The HST will do something you've commented on in this thread: reduce government spending. They are laying off PST employees as now we don't need a provincial and federal office to administer taxes separately.


Just to back up some of what taylor192 has said, here's the report that the Fraser Institute published on Monday.

http://www.fraserinstitute.org/researchandpublications/publications/7364.aspx

The report highlights that the average family will actually pay less tax if the income is <$80,000. However, I only skimmed the report and don't know what they determine as the "average" family.

I am a strong believer that the businesses will pass down the savings but as some people have already pointed out, the businesses will only do so if consumers make the decisions to spend less, thus driving businesses to lower prices. With all this hype, I strongly believe people's spending patterns will change to saving more and businesses will have no choice but to pass on the savings to encourage spending again.

Considering that the HST is supposed to be revenue neutral, I just hope the federal government incentive is being put to good use. My biggest gripe with government is their inefficiency, some of the points which have been covered already (ie. duplication of services).

[taylor192]

Taylor the $198 is for childcare alone. That's not even getting into school supplies, activities for the fall & clothing. It is the biggest chunk of it but the $20 here, $30 there will adds up quick for the rest. It's not fear mongering. That's the reality that those of us who buget ahead deal with now. And those of us who don't will just be suprised with later.

Any how I was using myself mostly as an example of how this is going to impact most BC families more then it was my intention to bitch about my personal costs.
I like examples, and you're making for a very good one. I don't consider it bitching, yet I do not like big numbers thrown around to scare people.

$198 for child care leaves $300 to get to your "I will spend $500 by Sept on my one kid". That's > $3000 spent on clothes, school supplies, ...

Oh wait - that's not even correct cause child clothing is still exempt: http://hst.blog.gov.bc.ca/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/GST_PST_HST_List_v04.pdf

Thus its not going to cost you $500 more by Sept unless you're spending a lot - then you can afford to pay your fair share.

I think most people get the fact that the tax is revenue-neutral. The problem is that many see this tax as a "tax shift" from the average joe to big businesses.

Then again, most people work for businesses of some sort, so the savings are going to be held by someone.
A business owner I met in Utah when my car broke down said something very profound:

My business pays $0 tax, my customers pay it, they just don't see it.

The problem with his statement is when dealing out of province or internationally. The customers just see higher uncompetitive prices and decide not to buy.

http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2010/06/23/april-retail-sales.html

Coles: retail down 2% with no sign of improving.
Tip: look up deals on RedFlagDeals.com before buying anything as retailers will need to offer incentives.

[Ducdesmo]

Just to back up some of what taylor192 has said, here's the report that the Fraser Institute published on Monday.

http://www.fraserinstitute.org/researchandpublications/publications/7364.aspx

The report highlights that the average family will actually pay less tax if the income is <$80,000. However, I only skimmed the report and don't know what they determine as the "average" family.



LOL Fraser Institute. More like right wing institute...nothing short of a shill for the liberal government..

[q0192837465]

People should start surfing smartcanucks.com religiously. Use the time u spend driving down to the States or going to Church to study that site and u'll save more shopping locally.

[Milhouse]

*updated list on first posting that HST affects.
That's a HUGE list. Gasoline should be there somewhere.
Why not say that EVERYTHING will be taxed in BC?
Maybe you will see people at the night market start to charge tax.
HST is GAY.

[Graeme S]

Taylor, please be more concise. I just had to go through and merge a fuckton of your posts. If you want to rebut multiple people, open quotes in new tables and copy/paste your responses. Don't take up more room than you have to.