[pastarocket]

The way that the federal government under PM Harper spends our tax dollars makes my blood boil these days.

This article highlights the government plans to buy 65 jet fighters to replace the 40 year old CF-18 jet fighters:

http://www.canada.com/business/Feds+announce+billion+fighter+purchase/3286911/story.html

What pisses me off is that this government spends our hard earned tax dollars on military priorities instead of building a better healthcare program, social housing, and education for Canadians.

Do the feds even comparison shop and review defence contracts to get the best deal? Read the article yourself. Canada is getting single engine jet fighters, at around $140 million each, when you can buy twin engine jet fighters at a lower price.

Now I am all for the country to have a decent military which has the equipment to defend our airspace and coastline from foreign threats, fishing poachers, etc. But $9 billion dollars ?????? :fuuuuu:


Your thoughts about the latest government purchase on the military?

[Ducdesmo]

It's actually 16 billion due to future maintainece, training, and others. Complete BS. While the global economy is in a financial crisis, we are busy blowing money on stuff like this instead of learning from others mistake.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[CorneringArtist]

What a waste. The plane itself is pretty good (ie. it has basic stealth capability), but to spend THAT much to update our air force? I don't think I've heard the word "air superiority" used very much when Canadian military operations is discussed.

[b0unce. [?]]

imagine how much pot that would be @_@

[Not really racist!]

Spending money on the military is justified... but 9 billion?

shit.

[rice cooker]

Should have spent some that to incinerate the fucking downtown east side.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[murd0c]

Ok I'm not happy about it but that's something that's needed. The CF-18's we have are a joke and with the large land mass we have we need reliable jet's to protect our sky's. We can't just sit back because we are next to the US. We have some of the best military training in the world and we need to back it up with a more creditable air force.

Every country and nation have issues with healthcare, social housing but if shit hits the fan we have to protect our own backs which what will happen with this purchase.

[Hondaracer]

lets fall behind the rest of the world and look like a bigger joke than ever..

or maybe we should have just forked out the full price and picked up some F22's..

i'd rather have my tax dollars buy some fighter jets than help a homeless coalition.

[Bouncing Bettys]

Now the timing might not be the best but the purchase of these planes was going to happen one way or another. Long before the idiot Conservatives won a minority government, Canada had already spent quite a bit into the developement of the JSF F-35 knowing the CF-18s were long in the tooth and needing replacement sooner than later.

[jdmhaze]

Mr. Harper

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l5o1r2ycVR1qb8zzko1_500.jpg

[FerrariEnzo]

wow would we need jet fighters?

isnt canadian military just made up of peacekeepers! lol
no guns, armour, tanks.. no nothing...

[carisear]

What pisses me off is that this government spends our hard earned tax dollars on military priorities instead of building a better healthcare program, social housing, and education for Canadians.





now i can't stand quoting from wiki, but i'm too lazy to get a real source, so here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Total_health_expenditure_in_constant_1997_dol lars.png

go ahead and keep spouting your socialist propaganda saying harper eats babies.

the timing is NEVER right to spend money on military in canada, yet it's ALWAYS perfect to spend more on healthcare. we've spent more on healthcare already, time to spend more on other things as well now.

[taylor192]

What most don't appreciate is that our military is very linked to the US cause the political and economic fallout would be severe. There's reasons we buy American military products rather than cheaper European versions. There's a reason we're in Afghanistan.

Some military spending is required to maintain a good relationship with out biggest trading partner, and the biggest economy in the world. Sucks to spend so much and overpay for what we need, yet not every decision can be made from a purely budgetary point of view.

[Lomac]

Your thoughts about the latest government purchase on the military?

It's a good idea. The F-18's, while a good plane, are starting to reach an age where they need constant maintenance to keep flying. Canada was a JSF35 member from the start, so it's not a surprise that we're purchasing new planes.

[EmperorIS]

i certainly wouldn't mind one of these bad boys flying over my neighborhood once in a while :P

[tiger_handheld]

does anyone recall the figher that a canadain manuf. designed and built a loooooong time ago? it was before the "F-xx" days...

[Lomac]

does anyone recall the figher that a canadain manuf. designed and built a loooooong time ago? it was before the "F-xx" days...

Avro Arrow

[murd0c]

Avro Arrow

great movie, it's sad if we never did that guaranteed we would have the best air force in the world. Even to todays standards it's a good plane.

[Noir]

great movie, it's sad if we never did that guaranteed we would have the best air force in the world. Even to todays standards it's a good plane.

Really now? It's a 1960's plane. Me thinks the Canadian Pride floweth too much on this one.

[murd0c]

Really now? It's a 1960's plane. Me thinks the Canadian Pride floweth too much on this one.

Ok when I saw the movie in high school 12yrs ago it was decent. It still was unbelievable technology for the time period.

[Noir]

Ok when I saw the movie in high school 12yrs ago it was decent. It still was unbelievable technology for the time period.

Yeah I saw the doc too and I agree.

[ericthehalfbee]

I'm glad they spent the money. We have always had world class pilots in our Air Force, now they get some hardware to go with it.

I feel a sense of pride in our military, despite our modest abilities. I have no problems with them getting budget increases to update equipment. I personally think they should spend more money.

Back at the end of WWII we had the 3rd largest navy in the world. I'd love to see money spent on naval vessels too, considering our vast coastline.

[pastarocket]

Do the feds even comparison shop and review defence contracts to get the best deal? Read the article yourself. Canada is getting single engine jet fighters, at around $140 million each, when you can buy twin engine jet fighters at a lower price.

Now I am all for the country to have a decent military which has the equipment to defend our airspace and coastline from foreign threats, fishing poachers, etc. But $9 billion dollars ?????? :fuuuuu:


My biggest beef with the spending on these F-35 jet fighters is the astronomic cost for single engine jet fighters.

My point is that Canada's air force is not getting the best product for the billions of dollars in spending on American made weaponry.

I may not know anything about the defense contracting bidding process, but I know that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the weaknesses in this jet.

That canada.com article mentions some critics, American guys, who think that these F-35 jets lack features that even the old CF-18 jets have.

Hmmm, $16 billion dollars, which includes maintenance costs, for 65 jet fighters. Each jet fighter has one engine. The CF-18 jets have TWO engines.

If you google about the U.S. Airforce, the wikipedia site has information about the twin engine F15E jet fighters that the U.S. military uses.

You would think that the Canadian defence minister and his staff would actually find a jet with twin engines instead of one.

Are there any pilots on this thread? Twin engine or single engine?

Is the Canadian forces getting the best bang for its buck with its F-35s?

[Lomac]

Why are you focusing on a single- vs twin-engine debate now? Twin-engines don't necessarily mean they're inherently better than single-engine planes.

What else would we buy? The F-22 has an export ban, the F-15 and -16 are 30 years old, and the F-18's are primarily carrier based. As for the Typhoon... well, that's essentially Europe's variant of the F-35.

[jackmeister]

did you expect them to consider chinese/russian made fighter jets?

[vitaminG]

all you fucking hippies can stfu, we dont need to be some pussy welfare country. Believe it or not Canada does have military obligations to live up to.

The cf-18 are getting pretty outdated and the F-35 is the ONLY 5th generation fighter that is available to us, and by far the best available at this time. the other countries buying them include United Kingdom, Italy, Netherlands, Canada, Australia, Denmark, Norway, turkey, isreal, japan, saudi arabia, finland, brazil.... list goes on. I dont think i want to lie in a country that has shittier fighter jets than denmark.

[MoBettah]

did you expect them to consider chinese/russian made fighter jets?

Politically of course it makes no sense, but an argument can be made that the latest offerings by Sukhoi are superior than even the F-22.

[orange7]

military equipment isn't cheap. It's going to be used for defending our asses, so it better be up to date and isn't made in China.

9bill is not that bad, considering what other big countries spend on their air force

[Raid3n]

Politically of course it makes no sense, but an argument can be made that the latest offerings by Sukhoi are superior than even the F-22.

sukhoi was exactly what i was thinking of when the russians were brought up lol.

[The_AK]

Hmm... well we COULD use some fighter jets, Just in case

[SkinnyPupp]

The helmets they use are fucking rad!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/F-35_Helmet_Mounted_Display_System.jpg

[Hondaracer]

US airforce has all their F35's led by 1 F22 no?

guess ours are just for patrolling

[twitchyzero]

we spent 1.7 billion for 2 weeks of olympic games in our backyard (debt without sea-to-sky & canada line and what we've made back from the venues/condos)

yet the federal government spends 10 billion to protect our airspace for at least several decades.

do the math

[J____]

The helmets they use are fucking rad!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/F-35_Helmet_Mounted_Display_System.jpg

imagine walking around with this thing haha

http://www.redferret.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/f35fighterpilothelmet_small.jpg

[vitaminG]

all i have to say is money well spent
1005

http://www.pilotwinit.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/F-35-Lightning-II.jpg
http://members.cox.net/renegade_sith2/miscjunk/FA-22-Raptor.jpg
http://www.defpro.com/data/gfx/news/74ed4ebc3643b51bbcbee878c4d451c278e353c2_big.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3098/2653391974_42925770bd.jpg

[RRxtar]

i dont know if some of you are getting excited because $9 billion sounds like a really really scary big number...

usually these kinds of contracts are spread out over like a 2-5 year period, they usually dont get a container from china with 35 GTR's.... I mean, 35 jets all at once.

so basically this might be closer to $3billion per year. that still might sound really really scary to some of you who only make $14/hour, but the 2010 Budget is 280.5 billion. that means less than half of a percent of Canadas expendatures are on these planes.

some more numbers to throw at you, Canada's military spending is roughly $20billion a year which is 13th in the world, and less than 1.5% of its GDP. by comparison the USA spends $670billion/ year and nearly 4.5% of its GDP, Russia spends $65billion or $3.5% of its GDP, hell, even brazil spends more on their military than we do.

infact, theres only 7 countries in the top 50 countries of military spending who spend less of their GDP on their military than Canada... and one of them is Switzerland

in conclusion, $9billion sounds like alot, but isnt really that much when you're talking about a country's spending

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

9billion isn't that much in the larger scale of things.

we're dealing with a countries bankroll here. not some individuals.

[iwantaskyline]

lets fall behind the rest of the world and look like a bigger joke than ever..

or maybe we should have just forked out the full price and picked up some F22's..

i'd rather have my tax dollars buy some fighter jets than help a homeless coalition.

F-35 costs 191 million per unit while the F-22 costs 150 million. (wikipedia)

F-22 is also virtually dead. US has ceased all funding for the program and no more orders are in place for anymore to be in production.

Also all you hippies shouldn't be so scared either. If the Liberal's take control by the next election you can be sure this order will be scrapped.

[Hondaracer]

from wiki:

a US ban on Raptor exports, and the development of the cheaper and more versatile F-35 resulted in calls to end F-22 production

I thought the F22 was -it- for aerial combat and the F35 is just an more rounded/versatile based on the raptor and that at one point they were considering just loading the F22 up with a bombing package to add another dimension to it

also from wiki:

The United States intends to buy a total of 2,443 aircraft for an estimated US$323 billion

OMG 9 BILLION!!@

[Qmx323]

da fei gei

[goo3]

yeah man, that's a kick ass looking plane

[Hondaracer]

Raptor > *

http://modernations.com/images/military/airforce/F-22-Raptor.jpg

http://washingtonindependent.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/f22-raptors.jpg

http://politicspeaksvalleys.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/f-22-fighter-jet.jpg

would love to see one of either plane at an airshow

Best job in the world imo

[urrh]

F-35 costs 191 million per unit while the F-22 costs 150 million. (wikipedia)

F-22 is also virtually dead. US has ceased all funding for the program and no more orders are in place for anymore to be in production.

Also all you hippies shouldn't be so scared either. If the Liberal's take control by the next election you can be sure this order will be scrapped.

IIRC, the reason the US stopped placing orders for the raptor is b/c the F35 is cheaper to make

[Ronin]

The helmets they use are fucking rad!

I want to see what those look like on the inside but those are balls out awesome already.

I'd rather we blow $9b on planes than giving it to hippie assholes, which is what the government all too much.

[Mr.HappySilp]

I think the OP expects the gov to buy 2nd hand jet fighters like the sumbraines.

So OP you want our country to use outdates jet fighters to protect our country and you wonder why a lot of other nations thinks Canada is a joke?

[The_AK]

At least now i can sleep soundly knowing that I have C35's protecting the air above me, thank you Canadian gov't, thank you for allowing me to sleep.

[Marco911]

Harper is also making sure that $30 bln in parts get sourced from Canadian manufaturers for this plane if the deal is to go through.

[Ludepower]

Anyone know where the f35 compares to other jets? I don't mind spending money on military...aslong as we buy the best planes for the money.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[Brianrietta]

To be completely honest, I don't give a shit about the fighter jets, but for fucks sakes we need the Cyclones to replace the Sea Kings ASAP. They should all have been scrapped in the mid eighties, but hey they're still here.

[CorneringArtist]

The F35 is one of few "fifth-generation" jet fighters. Basically the top-end of planes in terms of technology; like the F35 having basic stealth capability. Many of the other planes in that category are either prototypes, or have yet to enter production. The only 5th-gen plane that is expected to enter production at the same time as the F35 is the Russian Sukhoi PAK FA. The previous 4.5-gens are relatively older, but somewhat decent planes in terms of abilities, like the Typhoon, Rafale M, Gripen, F16, and updated versions of the MiG-35 F15 and F18.

If it was up to me, and it was a production model, and it was ethical for Canada to buy Russian military hardware, I'd want the Sukhoi Su-47 protecting our skies. Shit's badass.
http://www.thaitechnics.com/aircraft/tg2/su47.jpg

[unit]

bill gates could buy like 300 of them

[RRxtar]

Harper is also making sure that $30 bln in parts get sourced from Canadian manufaturers for this plane if the deal is to go through.
that too.

In just the developement, Canada had a return on its investment.

"Ottawa has invested $168 million into the development of the Joint Strike Fighter Program, which has already produced a return of $350 million in contracts for 85 Canadian companies, research laboratories and universities"


I remember an article a while back which said that Canadian companies lost a few of the contracts for the JSF, but in general, Canada is still coming out of it in very good shape.

[cressydrift]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTSRbXTh-_A

[cressydrift]

Buying the F-35 is a waste of money compared to the F-22. We don't need the vertical takeoff capabilities. We need a long distance, high speed aircraft to patrol the lands of our vast country.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16ti9GwnlVs



Oh and I would say thats a pretty short take off^

[SkinnyPupp]

Did they say that Canada will be getting the short takeoff version?

[tool001]

all said and done, canada doesn't need F-35 type aircraft. yes canada has already $ invested in it , but the cost of maintaining these aircraft will be too high. and they haven't been arn't being even actively used. that means, no body know how much it will cost to keep them in the air. Take f-22 for example, for every hour it spends in the air, i needs 30 of hrs of maintenance.

Canadian air force, hardly sees action, and cannot justify purchasing F-35 type of machine. the most they should go for is Super Hornets , or other single engine type air crafts, or even EF.
2ndly the argument of parts being produced in canada will help canada, is a bogus argument. Cause that can be done with any manufacturer, not only US. case example India is in the process of procuring 126 fighter jets for around $10billion and they have put that 40-50% parts will be produced locally into the contract that means (40-50% will be re-invested by whoever they select into the indian economy for parts etc)
NOT to mention Transfer of Technology is also listed as a requirnment. THey just finished field testing 6 aircraft and will short listing 3-4. All the aircrafts that they are at, is what canada should be looking at also.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_MRCA_competition

Case example, take sea king helicopters. after the liberals came into power, they squashed that deal, costing another $500 mil to canada. (same fate is likely as liberals are already up against this deal).

[RRxtar]

its been said like 5 times in this thread.

the F22 is NOT AVAILABLE to Canada. and will be out of production in 2 years. Canada doesnt receive its first F35 for 6 years.

the F35 is basically the ONLY option for Canada.

from what I understand the F22 had such a short run because it simply costs way to much to keep flying and all the systems which were so advanced at first, are now already getting dated and are not compatable with any other systems. the JSF is supposed to be a very upgradable machine with a long life expectancy like the jets built in the 60s-70s which are still in the air and now on their 4th or 5th varients.


and one of the reasons Canada needs a fighter is the debate over claims to the North Pole are starting to heat up with Russia being one of the countries wanting a stake. dont doubt theres oil up there, and dont doubt the Russians want it as bad as we do. and dont think the environmental and financial impact of Canada losing the north, wont affect the whole country. I would not hesitate for a second to think the US 'suggested' Canada get more involved in such things.

[Solo_D33A]

The F35 is one of few "fifth-generation" jet fighters. Basically the top-end of planes in terms of technology; like the F35 having basic stealth capability. Many of the other planes in that category are either prototypes, or have yet to enter production. The only 5th-gen plane that is expected to enter production at the same time as the F35 is the Russian Sukhoi PAK FA. The previous 4.5-gens are relatively older, but somewhat decent planes in terms of abilities, like the Typhoon, Rafale M, Gripen, F16, and updated versions of the MiG-35 F15 and F18.

If it was up to me, and it was a production model, and it was ethical for Canada to buy Russian military hardware, I'd want the Sukhoi Su-47 protecting our skies. Shit's badass.
http://www.thaitechnics.com/aircraft/tg2/su47.jpg

I'd love to see one of these around (Not due to warfare of course:thumbsup: ), T50 PAK FA
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/3088/pakfaaerial.jpg (http://img199.imageshack.us/i/pakfaaerial.jpg/)
http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/4857/sukhoit50pakfaknaapo3s6.jpg (http://img641.imageshack.us/i/sukhoit50pakfaknaapo3s6.jpg/)

[El Bastardo]

This is a good start, but its not enough. We've updated our air support from a bunch of guys in cessnas dropping beer bottles full of gas on the enemy to something a little more modern. Now we need to take our navy and army seriously. Cold War-era equipment isn't going to cut it in 2010.

[Leparto]

our tax money!

[Lomac]

our tax money!

What about our tax money?

[cressydrift]

its been said like 5 times in this thread.

the F22 is NOT AVAILABLE to Canada. and will be out of production in 2 years. Canada doesnt receive its first F35 for 6 years.

the F35 is basically the ONLY option for Canada.

and one of the reasons Canada needs a fighter is the debate over claims to the North Pole are starting to heat up with Russia being one of the countries wanting a stake.

I understand that we can't get the F-22, but we need a plane with the same capabilities as the F-22. How are the F-35's going to stand a chance against the SU's in air to air combat? * If that was to ever happen*.

[TOS'd]

mmmmm

http://www.lisisoft.com/imglisi/5/Screensavers/159449b-2-spirit2.jpg

[SolidPenguin]

mmmmm]

Why the hell would we need that. The F35 makes sense, a B2 doesnt. Plus, then people will definately start complaining considering theyre $2billion+ each.

[Solo_D33A]

B2s are for attack bomb runs, unlike the F35, multi-role defense fighter. Plus, running F35 should be much cheaper than say a F22... Besides, what are the chances we'll face a whole bunch of fighters that have F35+ capability? UN and states ain't gonna attack Canada, China, India, and Russian fighter's still in the development phase, Mitsubishi's making a copy of the F22 iirc, It'll be much more possible we'll have to face long range missiles and fleets of submarines than have air to air combat... In any case, F35 can be fitted to all situations.... just like all season tires, not the best, but plenty enough.

[RRxtar]

air to air dog fighting is a thing of the past.

[Narayan]

The way that the federal government under PM Harper spends our tax dollars makes my blood boil these days.

This article highlights the government plans to buy 65 jet fighters to replace the 40 year old CF-18 jet fighters:

http://www.canada.com/business/Feds+announce+billion+fighter+purchase/3286911/story.html

What pisses me off is that this government spends our hard earned tax dollars on military priorities instead of building a better healthcare program, social housing, and education for Canadians.

Do the feds even comparison shop and review defence contracts to get the best deal? Read the article yourself. Canada is getting single engine jet fighters, at around $140 million each, when you can buy twin engine jet fighters at a lower price.

Now I am all for the country to have a decent military which has the equipment to defend our airspace and coastline from foreign threats, fishing poachers, etc. But $9 billion dollars ?????? :fuuuuu:


Your thoughts about the latest government purchase on the military?

20 posts and you're been failed in 25% of them... you rock sir

[JD¹³]

I laugh at the people saying the F35 is a waste of money and that we don't need it. The CF-18's are pushing 40 years old. They're updated to the very latest weapons and radar technologies available and are still very capable, but with fighters like the F-22, F-35, SU-37, T-50 and so on out there... Canada needs a 21st century jet.

There are 3 versions of the F-35 that were designed for different roles within the US militrary. A standard version (USAF), Navy version with bigger control services and beefed up landing gear for carriers (USN), and the STOVL version with vertical takeoff capabilities (Marines). Canada as far as I know is getting the Navy version, so no we will not have the planes that can hover. The Marines are using them to replace their Harriers.

Though a lot of people don't realize it, pretty much any major threat that might attack North America (Russia, North Korea, etc) is going to come by flying over the North Pole. Guess which country they come across first? The Russians pulled their old Cold War era Bear Bombers out of mothball a couple years ago and have been ROUTINELY punching into Canadian and American airspace over the Pole as a way of saying "We're here and look what we can do". Should a situation with the Russians ever arise the fighters that would be escorting them would be one of a number of VERY capable fighters such as the SU-37, SU-47, or the new Sukhoi T-50. In short, Canada's F18's wouldn't stand a chance. We NEED the F35.

Here's what we're up against: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VRAvXwnHDs

As an aside: there was a recent incident involving a USAF F15. They're about as old as the F18 and those airframes have been pushed hard for the past 30-40 years. One actually came apart behind the cockpit while in the air because the airframe was so tired it couldn't handle the stress anymore. Basically the same thing as when you bend a piece of metal back and forth over and over it eventually weakens and snaps. It grounded the entire F15 fleet for a period of time. We do not want that happening to our ONLY northern defense weapon. Bring on the F35 (and fingers crossed I get selected to fly it).

[Solo_D33A]

Isn't SU47 pulled out due to high twist on wing design?

[CorneringArtist]

^There's that, and the development of the MiG into a 5th gen fighter. Only one was ever made as a technology demonstrator.

[SkinnyPupp]

If you want to see a sneak peak of how awesome the F-35 is, watch Die Hard 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgwW_hxmZAU

[El Bastardo]

But... but... what if the terrorists have boxes?

[Brianrietta]

But... but... what if the terrorists have boxes?

The west has the hedgehog. He's wrecked enough box in his time that I doubt they'll be coming anytime soon.

http://www.perfectpeople.net/photo-picture-image-media/Ron-Jeremy-500x506-66kb-media-5052-media-124528-1193606561.jpg

[johny]

What pisses me off is that this government spends our hard earned tax dollars on military priorities instead of building a better healthcare program, social housing, and education for Canadians.

heath care and education is provincial. not federal.... lean how government works before ranting about it.

who cares about social housing. don't have a job, go sleep in the forest. I ain't paying for you.

I bet $10 that Russia will attack us within the next 10 years. we need defence.. the liberals didn't spend any money for years and now we have nothing. time to get some stuff back. is that the best choice? I have no idea. I'm not a rocket scientist. now we need some navy ships and arm the coast guard boats.

[mqr03]

bill gates could buy like 300 of them

The sultan of brunei could buy 1000 of them.

[ericthehalfbee]

The guy doing all the flips is the SU-37 showing us how good it can maneuver. The other guy is the F-35 watching from 50 miles away and putting a missile up his ass when the time is right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu5or22Gzso

[JD¹³]

now we need some navy ships and arm the coast guard boats.
Canadian Navy moves forward on new supply ships

By BRYN WEESE
Parliamentary Bureau

Last Updated: July 14, 2010 5:59pm

OTTAWA -- The feds are promising -- again -- to build new support ships for
$2.6 billion that will help the Navy stay out at sea longer.

The vessels -- a one-stop sea shop for ships and helicopters -- supply fuel,
ammunition, spare parts and repairs, food, water, and medical facilities.

Three federal ministers made the announcement in Halifax Wednesday.

While the two shipyards that will build the vessels have not been chosen,
Defence Minister Peter MacKay promised the ships will be built in Canada.

The support ships are part of the government's $35 billion plan to build 28
large vessels and 100 smaller ships for the Navy and Coast Guard over the
next 30 years.

"We're making a long-term commitment to building our new fleets at home in
Canadian shipyards," MacKay said. "This is going to be a boom time for
shipbuilding throughout Atlantic Canada and throughout the country."

The designs are expected in about two years, but it isn't known when they'll
hit the water.

In 2008, the Conservatives scrapped a plan to build three new supply ships
for $2.9 billion when contractors were unable to meet the requirements for
the government's low price.

In 2007, the government pledged to build six to eight Arctic patrol ships
for $3.1 billion, the first of which could arrive by 2014.

In 2008, Prime Minister Stephen Harper announced plans for a new flagship
icebreaker, the Diefenbaker, for $720 million. That massive 140-metre-long,
made-in-Canada icebreaker will be able to break through nearly three metres
of ice and be ready by 2017.

[murd0c]

The guy doing all the flips is the SU-37 showing us how good it can maneuver. The other guy is the F-35 watching from 50 miles away and putting a missile up his ass when the time is right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu5or22Gzso

and what does a clip of the movie never back down have to do with it?

[Amaru]

The debate should not be centered around whether or not Canada needs new fighter aircraft. We do, and anyone with half a brain realizes that.

1) Canada has international commitments, including NATO, that require we maintain & be able to contribute modern military equipment as-needed. Total inability to provide resources and support for an organization like NATO can have consequences, even if they may not be immediate.

2) Canada is the 2nd largest country in the world, geographically, and the fighter jet is the only vehicle that can defend remote portions of the country.

3) Canada's possessions in the high arctic are becoming increasingly valuable every year. Maintaining sovereignty through conventional means is nearly impossible given the inaccessibility, vast distances, and inhospitable conditions.

(On that note, Canada's arctic sovereignty concerns are unknown to the vast majority of the Canadian public. It is a very real issue that has the potential to become serious in a very short time frame. The shipping lanes and undersea oil deposits are both extremely volatile issues.)

4) The fighter jet is an incredible powerful weapon that, despite its costs, represents the most versatile, usable and cost-effective war machine available.

5) Image is important. Canada, like any prosperous freedom-loving country, must maintain a reasonably modern and capable military in order to deter attack (however unlikely) and to secure & maintain international alliances.

6) The fighter jet is a politically viable way of engaging in combat. Because the casualty rates are very low, there is generally high levels of support for military missions that involve only fighter aircraft. Pilots usually come home in a uniform and not a body bag, and thus people are willing to support their use in combat more readily.

7) The fighter jet is not simply a tool for dropping bombs and fighting other aircraft. One of it's most important functions is to escort. Many medium and large scale combat engagements (naval, infantry, etc) require air support.

As a much more dramatic example, say a war erupted between Israel and Iran. Canada might need to remove citizens and dignitaries from harm's way, and the civilian transport aircraft would require protection from surface-to-air missiles and hostile aircraft.

Canada absolutely needs new fighter aircraft. Frankly, we need to maintain modern fighter jets more than we need to maintain any other aspect of our defense forces. If you need to cut spending, the most powerful and versatile combat weapon you've got should be the last option and not the first.

A more debatable topic is the suitability of the F35 Joint Strike Fighter, but even then, the alternatives aren't particularly appealing.

I'm not very well versed in modern military aircraft specs & capabilities, but I know that Canada's needs call for a specific type of aircraft. Our budget demands a multi-role fighter jet that is capable in any situation. It must have good range and speed. Payload capacity, air-to-air combat abilities, and stealth characteristics are less important (although certainly still very desirable).

Since the current CF-18's are still usable and have recently been refitted, there's no urgency to replace them. That's why the F-18 Super Hornet wasn't Canada's first choice, as it is not a "fifth-generation aircraft" and thus it is more of a short-term solution. Australia ordered 24 Super Hornets, yes, but my understanding is that they desperately needed to replace aging F-16's. Canada's CF-18's are old, but they're not obsolete yet.

The story is similar with the Saab 39 Gripen and Dassault Rafale. They're simply not modern enough to be considered for a long-term replacement, which is what Canada requires. The Eurofighter Typhoon - perhaps the best active "4.5 generation" fighter aircraft - could certainly be considered. It is more advanced than the Dassault and Saab, and looks more poised to be a long-term option. Still, it is already a decade old, and despite planned upgrades it will have been in service for nearly 15 years by the time Canada is replacing it's CF-18's. Additionally, although it is used by many European allies, it is very different in design from the American-made Lockheed F-22 and Boeing F-18 which makes interoperability a concern.

The Russian and Chinese built aircraft (PAK FA and J-XX respectively), however capable, are simply not an option. They may be quality aircraft, but you don't buy $10 billion worth of aircraft from potentially hostile nations. Especially not when all your allies are using completely different aircraft. How do you update and retrofit your fighter jet fleet if the country that manufactured them becomes hostile and refuses its support?

What's left? The F-35. It has it's drawbacks, too: single engine design, questionable air-to-air capabilities, high cost, etc. But it's still the only Western fifth generation fighter jet available, and will likely have the longest service life. It will also be the most advanced aircraft aside from the F-22, and for the most part it meets Canada's multi-role needs.

Hopefully, the criticisms and concerns over the F-35's performance will be addressed in the next seven years. If that does indeed happen, then Canada will possess one of the world's most advanced fighter aircraft and will be able to maintain a cost-effective fleet of capable aircraft for the next 30-40 years.

[ericthehalfbee]

and what does a clip of the movie never back down have to do with it?
Funny, I thought it was quite obvious.

The SU37 is very maneuverable and the previous video of it showed some incredible moves other planes aren't capable of performing. The kind of stuff that wows the crowds at airshows.

But it doesn't mean shit cause while the SU37 is dancing around in the sky showing off what it can do an F35 will come along and knock it out.

[Amaru]

The sultan of brunei could buy 1000 of them.

Off topic a bit, but Gates is worth at least twice as much as the Sultan of Brunei.

Unlike the Sultan, Gates doesn't show off his money as much... no Veyrons, McLaren F1's, etc. (A lot of his money is in the charity foundation endowment fund he created.)

[Amaru]

Funny, I thought it was quite obvious.

The SU37 is very maneuverable and the previous video of it showed some incredible moves other planes aren't capable of performing. The kind of stuff that wows the crowds at airshows.

But it doesn't mean shit cause while the SU37 is dancing around in the sky showing off what it can do an F35 will come along and knock it out.

I agree that the video doesn't say much about the plane's overall effectiveness. The SU-37 and now the S-47 aren't really a big issue as Russia seems more focused on the PAK FA, which is more stealth-oriented and appears to be a direct competitor to the F-35.

Air-to-air combat (and specifically maneuvering) aren't a huge concern anymore. In this day and age, true dogfights seem unlikely thanks to long-range BVR missiles, stealth technology, active radar homing, guided surface-to-air missiles, etc.

Don't get me wrong, maneuverability and air-to-air capabilities are both important, but I think Canada is less concerned with dogfights and more concerned with things like versatility, range, stealth, etc.

[belka]

What's left? The F-35. It has it's drawbacks, too: single engine design, questionable air-to-air capabilities, high cost, etc. But it's still the only Western fifth generation fighter jet available, and will likely have the longest service life. It will also be the most advanced aircraft aside from the F-22, and for the most part it meets Canada's multi-role needs.

A modern single engine design is no longer a drawback. Modern jet engines today are extremely reliable compared to their 60's and 70's counterparts. After working with the F404 for the past 5 years I can tell you there is more tech and processing power in my cell phone then that engine.

As far as the F-22, you have to remember that it was designed and built with 90's technology, the F-35 has far superior electronics and radar systems when both were built. When we get the F-35, the F-22 will be a 20 year old design, and besides, the US won't sell them to anyone anyways.

What pisses me off the most is the Liberals and the other idiots complaining about an unfair selection process. What do they want, have a competative bid which may result in the cancellation of the F-35 order? It was them who sunk hundreds of millions of dollars into the program in the first place, its only appropriate that we give our industry and economy the rewards with a F-35 purchase. Parts will be easier to get from the US than lets say Europe if we got the Eurofighter or god forbid, a POS flying Russian tank.

[Bouncing Bettys]

I was reading about the F-35 on wiki and came across this:

Canadian Wikipedia controversy

On 28 July 2010 the National Post newspaper reported that IP addresses registered to the Canadian Department of National Defence Defence Research Establishment Ottawa had been used on 20 and 21 July to try to remove text critical of the Canadian government's F-35 purchase from the Wikipedia article on the aircraft. Repeated attempts to remove the text and add insults to the opposition were made by three IP addresses at the establishment. Martin Champoux, DRDC Manager of Public Affairs indicated it was not part of a government campaign to eliminate criticism, stating, "It sounds to me like someone was freelancing. This is not behaviour we commonly condone." Champoux indicated organization IT specialists are attempting to track down the people responsible and that employees will be reminded about government regulations regarding personal computer use.
Official Opposition leader Michael Ignatieff stated on 29 July 2010 that the Wikipedia incidents show the government has "something to hide". He added, "Instead of making the case for Canadians ... saying, 'this is why we need this plane,' they're playing these games with Wikipedia. If you can't prove this case straight up and you have to resort to these tricks, then there's something wrong with the very proposition.
New Democratic Party Leader Jack Layton publicly said on 29 July 2010, "Attempting to expunge the realities of debate. I mean what the heck is going on here? We all knew [Prime Minister Stephen] Harper operated a controlling operation, but we didn't think he was willing to go so far as to snatch the words out of people's mouths and pretend they never were spoken. I hope that DND are simply disavowing this practice and will put a stop to it ASAP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-35_Lightning_II#Canadian_Wikipedia_controversy

and then i found this http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/07/29/wikipedia-dnd.html
DND computers used to change Wikipedia site

[SkinnyPupp]

So? You'd think the DND would have the best authority on what the Wikipedia page should say about their equipment.

Wikipedia isn't the place for Jack Leighton's people to post their grievances about the F-35, or to even "criticize" Canada's purchasing of the jets.

[Bouncing Bettys]

So? You'd think the DND would have the best authority on what the Wikipedia page should say about their equipment.

Wikipedia isn't the place for Jack Leighton's people to post their grievances about the F-35, or to even "criticize" Canada's purchasing of the jets.

For this matter, I could hardly care less about the F-35 purchase or the fact that idiotic behavour occurs on Wikipedia, a site open to editing information by anyone in the public; which, on a side note, is exactly why I searched for a more credible news sorce after reading. As a further sidenote I'm not happy with the timing of the purchase but I believe it is a purchase that had to be made sooner or later.

What concerns me more is how close this appears to be the actions of a government attempting to suppress the free flow of ideas and expression by its public.

[SkinnyPupp]

If they were deleting blogs and facebook posts, that would be a story worth looking into.

[CRX SiR]

Did anyone read and/or buy the CDR magazine (Canadian Defense Review) Volume 15/Issue 3 Where they went and checked out the F-35? I found it a really good read and helped me appreciate the plane more.

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

somebody shoots that dumb motherfucker

[Anjew]

its the same people bitching about the f-35 plane purchase that will bitch about how incompetent our government is with dealing with situations like the russian bomber testing our borders

[riccof]

I'm happy to hear that our government is starting allocate more money to our military. Having more newer planes will ultimately enable us to rely less on American fighters for air support, who tend to be a little trigger happy and can't seem to differentiate the difference between Canadian soldiers and the "Bad Guys"

[Infiniti]

the whole arctic sovereignty issue hasn't come into full view yet, but it undoubtedly will. When that day comes, as a citizen of this great nation i truly hope we have the means necessary to defend our interests.

[CRX SiR]

the whole arctic sovereignty issue hasn't come into full view yet, but it undoubtedly will. When that day comes, as a citizen of this great nation i truly hope we have the means necessary to defend our interests.

Agreed. Imagine how much worse our military would be right now if the Liberals had been in power these last few years. :S I hope we can get these cyclones going here one day...

I really hope we get some global hawks with ordanance capabilities to help patrol our oceans and borders.