[nns]

It’s puzzling why, while so many folks continue to vent their rage over the HST, so few voice concern over the spiralling costs of civic government . . . and over hefty property tax hikes costing them at least as much cash.

I mean, the way salaries for our municipal politicians, managers and workers keep rising, you have to wonder whether those in the over-protected public sector are even aware the battered private sector, which pays their bills, is still under water.

Look no further than the eye-popping salary increases that Port Coquitlam Mayor Greg Moore (42 per cent) and fellow council members (27 per cent) unblushingly handed themselves.

Or how about the 17-per-cent pay raise, retroactive to Jan. 1, awarded Burnaby Mayor Derek Corrigan (from around $97,500 to just over $114,000)?

I’m happy to report, though, that of late there do seem to be a few community leaders prepared to speak out about wage bills that typically make up at least 70 per cent of spending by municipalities, school boards and other public agencies.

They include Barbara Sharp, the former City of North Vancouver mayor, who stated in a North Shore News article last Friday that she was in “shock and awe” over a story (by reporter Jane Seyd) about six-figure salaries being on the increase at metro municipal halls.

Deploring public apathy over the misuse of tax dollars, Sharp said the salaries for the mayor and chief administrative officer (CAO) of North Van city — with a population of just 45,000 — had already increased by more than 35 per cent in the past 4½ years.

Sharp pointed out her final salary as mayor at the end of 2005 was around $68,000. Now, North Van city Mayor Darrell Mussatto gets more than $100,000 annually — which, Sharp noted, is the equivalent of around $120,000 for normal salary-earners. That’s because one-third of the income of all municipal elected officials, except those in Vancouver, is tax free.

It’s a tax break that also applies to the generous remuneration paid civic politicians who attend Metro Vancouver board and committee meetings, and likely make a further $20,000 to $30,000 a year.

Sharp added that, in 2005, the salary of North Van city’s CAO was about $180,000. Last year, CAO Ken Tollstam pulled in a whopping $250,000.

“When so many North Vancouver citizens are struggling to pay their bills,” Sharp said, “it is totally incomprehensible that our leaders continue to give themselves such fat-cat increases at our expense.”

She’s absolutely right. Many Lower Mainland homeowners are being hit with property tax hikes of four and five per cent at a time when the economy is sputtering and the B.C. inflation rate is under one per cent.

Over the top salary and benefit increases are evident at virtually every civic level.

As Seyd reported, 183 municipal employees on the North Shore earned more than $100,000 last year — double the number in 2008 and almost quadruple that six years ago. (Police officers are not included in these figures).

The bottom line: We taxpayers badly need to redirect some of our understandable HST anger — and rein in civic spending that’s out of control.


http://www.theprovince.com/business/Ferry+Abuse+taxpayers+goes+beyond/3402666/story.html

Read the comments on that page.

[MG1]

The tax free part is a killer. Holy shit, that sucks.

Time to go into politics. I can learn to bullshit and lie through my teeth.

[hotjoint]

The tax free part is a killer. Holy shit, that sucks.

Time to go into politics. I can learn to bullshit and lie through my teeth.

Sounds like a plan :thumbsup:

[Gridlock]

Everytime I read an article about wage increases for elected civic politicians, they always mention that they need to maintain parity with other districts. It's a race you can't win.

There is always someone that you work with that makes more. They can justify it in some way, but you can't. To you, they do the equivalent job as you do, and yet make more.

Voting to give yourself a raise in a recession is bad mojo.

And yet...no one gives a shit.

[TRD Rs200]

Fuck, what has the world come to, the rich gets raises, while the poor lives life one day at a time
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[hung_low]

it's not just the employees in the civic sector, unions are the main cause reason for driving prices up. ie bus drivers, we all bitch about how expensive transit fees are, but the bus drivers get pay increases every year for doing the same shit, that $$ has to come from somehwere.

[TheNewGirl]

The tax free part is a killer. Holy shit, that sucks.

Time to go into politics. I can learn to bullshit and lie through my teeth.


No kidding. I wasn't aware that thier income received such a signifigent tax break!

[TheNewGirl]

it's not just the employees in the civic sector, unions are the main cause reason for driving prices up. ie bus drivers, we all bitch about how expensive transit fees are, but the bus drivers get pay increases every year for doing the same shit, that $$ has to come from somehwere.

This is true. If you look at the list of the top 100 paid civic employees in BC a huge proportion of them are nurses, university proffessors & other educators.

That said, Translink and BC ferries management are also on there with absoluetely rediculious wages.

[$_$]

My friend's dad was an engineer in Hong Kong, and after they moved here he became a bus driver for Translink and they live a relatively comfortable life. He said the pay is good and the benefits are good, and will probably never quit that job.

[Delerious]

Some would say, 'that's just inflation', however the average worker's wages are NOT increasing to match the said inflation rate. In fact, wages seem to be decreasing as unemployment increases. It's much easier to pay someone $10/hr for something that would previously have been 15 when there's 50 other people applying for the job.

[falcon]

I'd like to see some of you guys run a city and tell me after a year what you think the job should pay... $100,000+- is nothing these days. And it's not exaclty a cushy job. They DO work, you know.

And touching on the HST... the general public is so stupid on the subject. I get people come in on a daily basis (motorcycle sales) and they're like "oh right... theres that stupid HST now... so what's that %12?"

Ya dumb shit.... it was %12 before and it's still %12. The name just changed. Shows how "in the know" general people are. Bitch bitch bitch... complain complain complain. I haven't even noticed the HST take a big impact on day to day life I dont even notice it.

[darkfroggy]

Before, PST and GST was charged on mainly everything, so I don't get how it makes life much more "difficult" for people.

Some people are using the HST as a scapegoat for poor financial skills. If 7% more on your food bill makes it unbearable, you've got bigger problems to worry about.

The Maritime provinces had 15-20% sales taxes for quite a while now, and they haven't "gone under" like people had predicted.

I know that no one likes taxes, and I don't exactly agree with the HST, but something had to be done. Being in charge of government is like that: it's damned if you do, damned if you don't. Trust me, no government would cannibalize itself for no reason.

I expect a failstorm, but I just had to give my 2 cents.

[TheNewGirl]

I'd like to see some of you guys run a city and tell me after a year what you think the job should pay... $100,000+- is nothing these days. And it's not exaclty a cushy job. They DO work, you know.

And touching on the HST... the general public is so stupid on the subject. I get people come in on a daily basis (motorcycle sales) and they're like "oh right... theres that stupid HST now... so what's that %12?"

Ya dumb shit.... it was %12 before and it's still %12. The name just changed. Shows how "in the know" general people are. Bitch bitch bitch... complain complain complain. I haven't even noticed the HST take a big impact on day to day life I dont even notice it.


I'm going to continue to point out that while most of you are parents, for families HST increases the tax burden considerably. BC families were previously exempt from a lot of PST for family activies and things for thier children.

That will trickle down though to the lot of you, as unemployment continues to increase in the service sector (where HST previously wasn't charged but now is, the resteraunt industry is down about 10% as are other businesses that rely on discressionary spending) and your taxes (by way of your EI premiums) go up to cover that burden as well.

$100,000 is about 60K take home to an average person (which IS a very comfortable salary, in many parts of this country you could easily pay off a house in 5 years on that salary). To a public sector employee that's $80,000 given their tax breaks, that's more then comfortable, especially for people who are mismanaging our province.

As for the mayors earning those wages, personally I don't object, Municipalities tent to manage a balanced buget and for the most part are well run.

The ones I object to are Translink & BC Ferries Board directors who give themselves a 25% (or 5 million dollar combined increase) wage increase while claiming a deficit and laying off employees to cut wage costs to a combined total of "savings" equal to a fraction of what they gave themselves (as BC Ferries did last year or the year before).

[freakshow]

I'd like to see some of you guys run a city and tell me after a year what you think the job should pay... $100,000+- is nothing these days. And it's not exaclty a cushy job. They DO work, you know.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. Yes, some of them DO work, and they work hard. However, I'll venture to say that MOST of them do NOT work hard.
Everyone I know that works for the government (RCMP or CBSA) says themselves that it's easy, with great pay, and have no problem telling me about all the different ways that they (and most of their coworkers) slack off.
Then there are my friends who work for pseudo-crown corps, like Worksafe BC. They tell me how much they make with the experience they have, and it is truly sickening. More than that, most of their work stories involve how they love to email each other and watch youtube videos. They only take a break from youtube when their manager comes around -- to show them his newest iphone app..

[TheNewGirl]

Before, PST and GST was charged on mainly everything, so I don't get how it makes life much more "difficult" for people.

Some people are using the HST as a scapegoat for poor financial skills. If 7% more on your food bill makes it unbearable, you've got bigger problems to worry about.

The Maritime provinces had 15-20% sales taxes for quite a while now, and they haven't "gone under" like people had predicted.

I know that no one likes taxes, and I don't exactly agree with the HST, but something had to be done. Being in charge of government is like that: it's damned if you do, damned if you don't. Trust me, no government would cannibalize itself for no reason.

I expect a failstorm, but I just had to give my 2 cents.

I think one of the big problems here is that in BC our wage to cost of living ratio is skewd pretty far off the rest of the country. In the maritimes you can still buy a 5 bedroom house on three acres for less then $100,000 (My parents just bought one in prince edward island!). Wages are slightly less but not drastically.

In BC about 70% of an average family's wages go into cost of living expenses (rent/morgage, utilities, food, insurance, possibly operating a vehicle, daycare). Once you factor in income tax taking about 20% there's not much left... an additional 7% IS a big burden. I know for single folks with lots of play money this doesn't seem possible but for working families this is reality.

In the rest of the countery cost of living expenses sit closer to the 50% mark. Giving a lot more leeway for additional tax burden.

[taylor192]

I'd like to see some of you guys run a city and tell me after a year what you think the job should pay... $100,000+- is nothing these days. And it's not exaclty a cushy job. They DO work, you know.
Only the top 5% of Canadians make more than $100K. I do not think a city councilor deserves to be in that category. Yes I do know what a city councilor does, and a good one can do the job part time, and that's for a big city, not the smaller cities that make up the GVA.

The GVA needs to amalgamate like the GTA, which would reduce the number of mayors, councilors, fire/police chiefs, ... and take $Ms off the payroll.

[darkfroggy]

I'm going to continue to point out that while most of you are parents, for families HST increases the tax burden considerably. BC families were previously exempt from a lot of PST for family activies and things for thier children.

That will trickle down though to the lot of you, as unemployment continues to increase in the service sector (where HST previously wasn't charged but now is, the resteraunt industry is down about 10% as are other businesses that rely on discressionary spending) and your taxes (by way of your EI premiums) go up to cover that burden as well.

$100,000 is about 60K take home to an average person (which IS a very comfortable salary, in many parts of this country you could easily pay off a house in 5 years on that salary). To a public sector employee that's $80,000 given their tax breaks, that's more then comfortable, especially for people who are mismanaging our province.

As for the mayors earning those wages, personally I don't object, Municipalities tent to manage a balanced buget and for the most part are well run.

The ones I object to are Translink & BC Ferries Board directors who give themselves a 25% (or 5 million dollar combined increase) wage increase while claiming a deficit and laying off employees to cut wage costs to a combined total of "savings" equal to a fraction of what they gave themselves (as BC Ferries did last year or the year before).

Restaurant companies didn't get hit that badly. I have yet to see a restaurant suffer considerably from the HST.

You only pay $1.24 more on a $20 meal. The world is not going down.

Could you explain how $60k a year means you can pay off a house in 5 years? That's only $300k, won't buy you a livable house anywhere in the country. And that's if you don't spend it on FOOD, CLOTHING, SHELTER, etc.

If the people managing cities so "inept", then maybe you should apply for their jobs. It's not as easy as you think.

Even without the HST, the government would get its fix of money either way. They could raise income taxes, carbon taxes, implement new environment fees. If the HST gets repealed, they could simply make a new tax or raise existing ones.

Oops, sorry if came off harsh. T_T

[taylor192]

the restaurant industry is down about 10% as are other businesses that rely on discretionary spending
The number of restaurants more than doubled over the last decade while the population certainly did not double. People had more discretionary spending money cause of tax cuts and a booming economy, so they spent it eating out among other things.

I do not feel bad for the restaurant industry. They overbuilt during good times, and now will have to scale back to find an equilibrium.

[taylor192]

That's only $300k, won't buy you a livable house anywhere in the country.

All your other points are null and void if you're going to make asinine statements like this. $300K buys a fantastic house in many parts of our country.

If the people managing cities so "inept", then maybe you should apply for their jobs. It's not as easy as you think.
I am more familiar with Ottawa city politics, so excuse me for using Ottawa not Vancouver as the example.

In Ottawa there was a city councilor who kept getting elected cause he was the incumbent in a district with lots of candidates. People vote for the incumbent if they don't know better and nothing is really wrong in their district, so he would get just enough votes to win. He didn't attend a city council meeting for years, infact, no-one really knew what he did.

[Gridlock]

I'd like to see some of you guys run a city and tell me after a year what you think the job should pay... $100,000+- is nothing these days. And it's not exaclty a cushy job. They DO work, you know.

And touching on the HST... the general public is so stupid on the subject. I get people come in on a daily basis (motorcycle sales) and they're like "oh right... theres that stupid HST now... so what's that %12?"

Ya dumb shit.... it was %12 before and it's still %12. The name just changed. Shows how "in the know" general people are. Bitch bitch bitch... complain complain complain. I haven't even noticed the HST take a big impact on day to day life I dont even notice it.

I notice it as a huge jump. In construction, and I didn't charge PST. No one notices that my sub-total is the same, its the large increase on "Grand Total" at the bottom.

[J____]

Before, PST and GST was charged on mainly everything, so I don't get how it makes life much more "difficult" for people.

Some people are using the HST as a scapegoat for poor financial skills. If 7% more on your food bill makes it unbearable, you've got bigger problems to worry about.

The Maritime provinces had 15-20% sales taxes for quite a while now, and they haven't "gone under" like people had predicted.

I know that no one likes taxes, and I don't exactly agree with the HST, but something had to be done. Being in charge of government is like that: it's damned if you do, damned if you don't. Trust me, no government would cannibalize itself for no reason.

I expect a failstorm, but I just had to give my 2 cents.

ya, the maritime provinces also doesnt have housing cost to income ratio fo 10 to 1. Of course you probably live at home and dont give a shit about housing costs as long as you're making 25k a year and spending it on video games and drinking at the club.

[TheNewGirl]

Restaurant companies didn't get hit that badly. I have yet to see a restaurant suffer considerably from the HST.

You only pay $1.24 more on a $20 meal. The world is not going down.

Could you explain how $60k a year means you can pay off a house in 5 years? That's only $300k, won't buy you a livable house anywhere in the country. And that's if you don't spend it on FOOD, CLOTHING, SHELTER, etc.

If the people managing cities so "inept", then maybe you should apply for their jobs. It's not as easy as you think.

Even without the HST, the government would get its fix of money either way. They could raise income taxes, carbon taxes, implement new environment fees. If the HST gets repealed, they could simply make a new tax or raise existing ones.

Oops, sorry if came off harsh. T_T

I think you missed the part of my post where I pointed out that in other parts of the Canada you can get large homes on acerage for under 100K.

Please see above where I pointed out the margins of discressionary spending available to BC families as opposed to other parts of the country.

[TheNewGirl]

The number of restaurants more than doubled over the last decade while the population certainly did not double. People had more discretionary spending money cause of tax cuts and a booming economy, so they spent it eating out among other things.

I do not feel bad for the restaurant industry. They overbuilt during good times, and now will have to scale back to find an equilibrium.

It's not just the food industry though. There's a lot of service and entertainment jobs being lost because less money in the pockets of families means less money to spend doing fun things. And it's not just the extra 1.24 on a $20 meal. If I have to pay say tax on a summer program for my child now (cause I have to work and she's too young to be alone by herself) that's about $150 over the summer that goes to the government that I would have probably spent maybe going on an outting and out for a few dinners. It's not bank breaking but it removes the limited free cash from my pocket. Now remove $150 X how ever many families there are on a limited budget in the province (a whole lot) from the service industry and give it to the government.

Previously the service industry was keeping unemployment numbers steady in this province. Now with a hit to that sector we're starting to see unemployment numbers rise. So while it hurts me directly in that my buget as a parent is tightened, it hurts you folks as well in that now you (and me), the tax payers are supporting a higher unemployment load for a government on a deficit buget, also, there's that much more competition for jobs if you you find yourself looking for work (which you're now statistically more likely to be).

The trickle goes further though, as unemployment numbers rise due to cuts in the service industry, all those families cut back thier spending (or cut it back further) and of what they can spend a little bit more goes to the government and a little less to these industries which exaserbates the problem. Unemployment rises further, the weight of it falls further on the shoulders of those who are paying taxes.

So you understand how this works? Who pays in the end? You my young friends with the disposable income who blindly swollow what the government tells you and think 'oh it's just 1.24 more on a $20 meal'.

Additionally, and very quietly, while the HST support says that it is intended to bring more 'big buisiness' to BC. There's actually a cap on how much and on what HST rebates can be claimed by a company that earns over X dollars. Small businesses don't hit that threashold, large businesses? They do (And we're not talking that large in a business sense). Unfortunitely this defeats the whole purpose of creating a tax break to draw large businesses into the province when the tax actually puts large industries (which would bring in jobs) at a disadvantage.

[taylor192]

Now remove $150 X how ever many families there are on a limited budget in the province (a whole lot) from the service industry and give it to the government.
This is where you miss the point of the HST: it is not given to the government. It replaces money lost collecting tax from business. More on this later.

Previously the service industry was keeping unemployment numbers steady in this province. Now with a hit to that sector we're starting to see unemployment numbers rise. So while it hurts me directly in that my buget as a parent is tightened, it hurts you folks as well
Relying on the service industry was a mistake. We became uncompetitive globally, to the point it is cheaper to ship raw materials (logs for example) overseas to be processed than to process here. These economies need to become competitive globally, and reducing their tax burden is a good way of accomplishing this.

We cannot rely on 70% of our economy selling crap to each other. Looks what happens when our buying power is reduced, our economy sinks with it.

So you understand how this works? Who pays in the end?
I do understand how this works, you don't seem to be aware of how we got here. Who pays? We do, cause we created this mess.

Additionally, and very quietly, while the HST support says that it is intended to bring more 'big buisiness' to BC. There's actually a cap on how much and on what HST rebates can be claimed by a company that earns over X dollars. Small businesses don't hit that threashold, large businesses? They do (And we're not talking that large in a business sense). Unfortunitely this defeats the whole purpose of creating a tax break to draw large businesses into the province when the tax actually puts large industries (which would bring in jobs) at a disadvantage.
I'll argue the HST wasn't designed to attract just big business, it applies to all business.

Here's another little tidbit you might not know: small business creates jobs, big business tends to keep steady or shed jobs.

Look it up.

We need to encourage small business, and the best way to do that is ease their tax burden. I support this more than the government subsidies other provinces have tried in the past, cause then essentially the government is picking winners and losers in the marketplace, and we know the government's track record of business ventures.

[johny]

I'd like to see some of you guys run a city and tell me after a year what you think the job should pay... $100,000+- is nothing these days. And it's not exaclty a cushy job. They DO work, you know.

people aren't complaining so much about the high wage, but the high increases, especily durring such a slump. the fact is most private jobs are currently at frozen wages and lots of people are probably getting wage decreases (if lucky enough to not getted layed off).

so the fact that these people keep getting increases durring a time when nobody else is, is reason to get upset. had they just been content with their ~100k jobs and no increase, likly nobody would have noticed or cared. it's the increase amounts that pissed people off.

[johny]

We need to encourage small business, and the best way to do that is ease their tax burden. I support this more than the government subsidies other provinces have tried in the past,


my understanding is the company I work for buys most of it's products from wholesalers and we have acounts with PST / GST numbers so we never paid tax on anything in the first place. only when we bought the odd parts from reg stores would he eat the PST (but still get back the GST at year end). so he'll save a few bucks on tax when he buys the odd thing. (maybe a few hundred a year) but now we have to charge everyone 7% more on our bills. (as it's mainly labour)

this small business will be harmed, not helped by HST.

[taylor192]

my understanding is the company I work for buys most of it's products from wholesalers and we have acounts with PST / GST numbers so we never paid tax on anything in the first place. only when we bought the odd parts from reg stores would he eat the PST (but still get back the GST at year end). so he'll save a few bucks on tax when he buys the odd thing. (maybe a few hundred a year) but now we have to charge everyone 7% more on our bills. (as it's mainly labour)

this small business will be harmed, not helped by HST.
It depends on what the business is buying.

Items bought to resell to customers qualified for the PST/GST remittance, since the consumer will ultimately pay the tax. Yet the same is not true for equipment the business uses - like tools, vehicles, machinery, computers, ... This is where the HST is supposed to help. Picture a small business having to pay 12% on everything they need to open the doors.

[q0192837465]

But going back to how they vote for their own wages increase, is there really anything anyone can do? There's some serious conflict on interest there. They always justify the increase by showing some "studies" that say they'r underpaid for their work. Is there a way to say no to these guys? It really doesnt matter which party you vote for cuz in the end they'll do thet same shit.

[twitchyzero]

it's not just the employees in the civic sector, unions are the main cause reason for driving prices up. ie bus drivers, we all bitch about how expensive transit fees are, but the bus drivers get pay increases every year for doing the same shit, that $$ has to come from somehwere.

i thought the average bus driver makes 60k..which sounds about right for the work they do

[darkfroggy]

i thought the average bus driver makes 60k..which sounds about right for the work they do

Sometimes it amazes me with the amount of shit they have to put up with.

[BaoTurbo]

Basically, its what people benefit greatly from other people's loss that pisses everyone on the loss side off.

[City-bear]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. Yes, some of them DO work, and they work hard. However, I'll venture to say that MOST of them do NOT work hard.
Everyone I know that works for the government (RCMP or CBSA) says themselves that it's easy, with great pay, and have no problem telling me about all the different ways that they (and most of their coworkers) slack off.
Then there are my friends who work for pseudo-crown corps, like Worksafe BC. They tell me how much they make with the experience they have, and it is truly sickening. More than that, most of their work stories involve how they love to email each other and watch youtube videos. They only take a break from youtube when their manager comes around -- to show them his newest iphone app..

I think it has more to do with unions than working for the government. The higher up you get, the more you get paid, the harder it is to fire you. Unions reward loyalty and not hard work, and sadly, that is what I see at my workplace. So many people doing the bare minimum just so they can claim their government pension.

[Tapioca]

I think it has more to do with unions than working for the government. The higher up you get, the more you get paid, the harder it is to fire you. Unions reward loyalty and not hard work, and sadly, that is what I see at my workplace. So many people doing the bare minimum just so they can claim their government pension.

Actually, you'll find that most public servants who make 80K+/year are actually non-unionized.

My take is that the grass is always greener on the other side. If you're simply a clerk or an administrative person, life in the public service is a pretty sweet deal. However, if you're a professional of some sort (engineer, lawyer, etc.), you might actually take a pay cut. Check out job postings on the BC Public Service website (https://search.employment.gov.bc.ca/cgi-bin/a/searchjobs_quick.cgi) or the federal government's website (www.jobs.gc.ca) to see what public servants are actually getting paid.

[MelonBoy]

ehh.. a small raise compared to transits bull shit.. >.>

Major piss off points because they keep asking for more money and say they need funding to build more shit ..

When
1) There to retarded to add in the turn-stalls faster (aka increasing revenue because of the HUGE amounts lost from people who just jump) Hell even when I buy a bus pass I rarely ever get checked.. maybe once every 1-2months.. hmm no wonder people just hop on hop off.
2) The transit employees keep getting annual raises! Really?? I thought you were short on funding to build shit you greedy fucks. Hmmmm maybe your upper management like lets see your PR Manager should take a pay cut?? Last i heard she was making 200+k ???

[taylor192]

My take is that the grass is always greener on the other side. If you're simply a clerk or an administrative person, life in the public service is a pretty sweet deal. However, if you're a professional of some sort (engineer, lawyer, etc.), you might actually take a pay cut. Check out job postings on the BC Public Service website (https://search.employment.gov.bc.ca/cgi-bin/a/searchjobs_quick.cgi) or the federal government's website (www.jobs.gc.ca) to see what public servants are actually getting paid.
Remember to add 12-20% to those public salaries to account for the pension contributions. So those clerks become very overpaid, and the engineers salary is within reason.

[gdoh]

do we really do anything about this tho?? we just complain for a bit then forget about it until it happens again, and the MLA's, MP's and what not are supposed to be a voice for us but this is not true they are only a voice for themselves and the big wigs that run everything

[nns]

^I find for situations like this, it's not so much about caring then forgetting about it like it's the bandwagon-of-the-day sort of thing. It's more like just being aware of your city, how it runs, and how/where money flows.

This way, you won't be so ignorant to so many things, and hopefully, won't sound so foolish when you have the opportunity to voice your thoughts.

[Tapioca]

Remember to add 12-20% to those public salaries to account for the pension contributions. So those clerks become very overpaid, and the engineers salary is within reason.

I didn't deny that being a clerk is a good deal (and probably for some, a great deal) if that's all you wanted to be. We all know people whose ambition only reaches as far as their next Louis Vuitton purse or lens on their SLR camera.

^I find for situations like this, it's not so much about caring then forgetting about it like it's the bandwagon-of-the-day sort of thing. It's more like just being aware of your city, how it runs, and how/where money flows.

This way, you won't be so ignorant to so many things, and hopefully, won't sound so foolish when you have the opportunity to voice your thoughts.

This. We would all be better off if people actually cared about things outside of the next Steve Jobs press conference.