[asian_XL]

http://news.asiaone.com/a1media/news/08Aug10/20100823.131655_afp_hijacker1.jpg
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/08/23/philippines.bus.hostages/t1larg.jpg

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/08/23/philippines.bus.hostages/index.html?hpt=T1#fbid=rvcEx0UA4An&wom=false
omg...anybody watched the news?

it took those dumbass 45 minutes to snipe that motherfucker.
8 person were killed


Screenshots:
http://news.discuss.com.hk/viewthread.php?tid=12924430&extra=page%3D1

Boom headshot
http://i.discuss.com.hk/d/attachments/day_100823/20100823_988add59241a9adb7ad4LPl6gxJNN2Pj.jpg

[SkinnyPupp]

Yeah I watched the whole thing lived. One of the most fucked up live events I remember seeing. It was great seeing the live hostages walk out on their own (I think I saw 4) but sad to see them drag the dead bodies out :(

Make sure to post the Apple Daily video as soon as it shows up!

[mx100]

watched the whole thing starting from 7:00 pm.

very intense and saddening to see dead bodies being dragged out.

RIP.

[Bouncing Bettys]

it took those dumbass 45 minutes to snipe that motherfucker. at least 2 hongers were killed

it took over 4 hours for the RCMP to finally put a stop to Vince Weiguang Li beheading, mutilating, eating of his victim on that greyhound bus in manitoba and that was only after he attempted to escape the bus.

[asian_XL]

^ this time it took 11 hrs, 45hrs to smash the windows, and everybody wonders why they didn't kill him while he was standing at the door in the day time... :\

http://news.asiaone.com/a1media/news/08Aug10/20100823.131655_afp_hijacker1.jpg

[SkinnyPupp]

#1 priority is to never kill anyone, even the suspect. At that time, he was peaceful and hadn't harmed the hostages yet.

[ZenZa]

he was an ex-cop

[pure.life]

reports say his son is a cop as well.

[StylinRed]

All this because he wanted his job back? oO

he must have known he wouldn't get his job back and was only doing this to show how unjustified he felt his dismissal was

i wonder what the story is behind his dismissal I can't imagine it being a simple case of extortion

[SkinnyPupp]

Apparently he was part of a group of cops busted for extortion. They're all probably fall guys for even deeper corruption

[Ferra]

#1 priority is to never kill anyone, even the suspect. At that time, he was peaceful and hadn't harmed the hostages yet.
not when you are in countries like philippine and brazil... :lol

[chun]

All this because he wanted his job back? oO

he must have known he wouldn't get his job back and was only doing this to show how unjustified he felt his dismissal was

i wonder what the story is behind his dismissal I can't imagine it being a simple case of extortion

Something about an "unjust" dismissal (who knows, extortion was mentioned) and loss of pension. I don't agree with him but I can "understand"... slightly.

[Zyzz]

wow just saw this on the news

were the tourists killed? or the chinese diplomats?

cause according to the picture it saids all the diplomats were killed

[SkinnyPupp]

Chinese diplomats?

They were all tourists man

[Vale46Rossi]

In the end 7 tourist were killed and the ex cop so 8 deaths

RIP

[bbbj]

Last update about 30 min ago was that 6 chinese confirmed dead I believe.

[SkinnyPupp]

One of the kids was set free in the day, but his parents stayed behind. Anyone know if they survived?

[danned]

whose mother fuckers dumbass swat had no idea what they are doing to the bus
they should get americans dealing this
that probably takes like 2hours

[Vale46Rossi]

whose mother fuckers dumbass swat had no idea what they are doing to the bus
they should get americans dealing this
that probably takes like 2hours

If there were dunkin donuts near the area I bet you the americans would not even show

[TRDood]

This is so sad. There will be a lot of explaining to do for the CEO of that tourist company.

They are partners of Super Trio!

[danned]

why the president of PHILIPhine is not showing?

[pure.life]

If there were dunkin donuts near the area I bet you the americans would not even show

jokes can be saved for another time. This is a serious matter with innocent lives lost.

What struck me on top of the attack is the way the cops strategized their tactic. The (young)cops seem fazed and not well coordinated. I am not a big fps fan but I would imagine there would be a better tactic to approach the hostage-takers. Perhaps they thought smashing the windows would draw the ex-cop's attention preparing an opening for snipers. Nonetheless, there is a lot of explaining to do.

[HonestTea]

Just heard about this from a friend in HK and shit, such a sad thing to see the dead bodies being pulled out :( :(

RIP to the victims :(

[SkinnyPupp]

This is so sad. There will be a lot of explaining to do for the CEO of that tourist company.

They are partners of Super Trio!
Why would they have to answer for anything? A former cop hijacked their bus with an assault rifle, it's not like they had anything to do with it.

[hotjoint]

Heard about this on the radio on the way to work. Crazy.

[CP.AR]

RIP seven unfortunately died.... :(

GL Philippine tourism industry - when your former cops hijacks buses

[Vale46Rossi]

11-hour long hostage taking in Manila ends with 7 Hong Kong tourists dead


English.news.cn 2010-08-24 00:31:14 FeedbackPrintRSS
by Prime Sarmiento

MANILA, Aug. 23 (Xinhua) -- The eleven-hour long hostage-taking incident in the Philippine capital ended Monday night with seven Hong Kong tourists dead.

Fifteen Hong Kong tourists, three of whom are children, survived the ordeal. Eight were injured - two of whom are critical condition and they are being treated in local hospitals. The rest were billeted in a hotel where they underwent a "stress debriefing" by Tourism Secretary Alberto Lim and Social Welfare Secretary Corazon Soliman.

The hostage-taker, former Police Senior Inspector Rolando Mendoza, was killed after local police assaulted the bus to save the hostages.

The Hong Kong government is dispatching a chartered plane to transport family members of the tourists involved in the abduction.

Medics, community volunteers and psychologists were also onboard to help the victims.

Shortly after the incident ended around 9 p.m. local time, the Security Bureau of the Hong Kong government has issued a "Black Outbound Travel Alert" for the Philippines, urging Hong Kong residents to avoid all travel to the country.

The black alert is the highest level of Hong Kong's three-sign Outbound Travel Alert system, indicating a "severe threat" exists and all travel to the destination should be avoided.

The Hong Kong government said it has asked the Travel Industry Council to forward messages to Hong Kong's tour groups still in the Philippines, requiring them to come back to Hong Kong as soon as possible.

Mendoza, brandishing an M-16 rifle, hijacked a tourist bus Monday morning, around 10 a.m. There were 25 people onboard, 22 were Hong Kong tourists, three others were Filipinos: a bus driver, a translator and a photographer. The abduction was held near Rizal Park, a major tourist site in Manila.

Mendoza was dismissed from service for extortion and forcing a chef to swallow "shabu." He hostaged the bus, demanding local officials to reinstate him.

Local police went to the scene and cordoned the area. Two police officers, Superintendent Orlando Yebra Jr. and Chief Inspector Romeo Salvador negotiated with Mendoza. After hours of talks, Mendoza freed seven tourists, the Filipino translator and the photographer.

Senior Police Officer 2 Gregorio Mendoza, the brother of hostage-taking cop, joined the negotiations, urging him to surrender peacefully.

Gregorio walked away from the negotiations within five minutes, telling his brother "Walang mangyayari dito (Nothing will happen here)."

The bus driver managed to escape from captivity around 7:30 pm, local time. He claimed that Mendoza killed the remaining 15 hostages. This spurred the police to assault the bus, killing Mendoza.

Hong Kong Chief Executive Donald Tsang said Monday night he was very sad and disappointed over the tragedy and the losses of lives of Hong Kong residents and felt very angry over the deeds of the thug. He extended condolences to the families of those killed and injured in the incident.

Tsang said his government would provide everything needed to assist those families to overcome current difficulties.

Tsang said Hong Kong would lower the flag of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region at half-mast to mourn the death of the seven tourists, adding that his government would ask the Philippine government to explain the incident.




Better Article.

[Vale46Rossi]

Also

Hong Kong has sent a chartered plane to get the rest of the survivors.







HONG KONG, Aug. 23 (Xinhua) -- Lau Mei-sze, manager of Hong Thai travel agency which had organized the Hong Kong tour group to the Philippines, said the Hong Kong government has decided to send a chartered plane to the Philippine capital Manila on Monday night to carry back tourists involved in the abduction incident.

Lau told reporters that the chartered plane was expected to leave for Manila before Monday mid-night local time. Aboard the chartered plane would be representatives from the Security Bureau of the Hong Kong government, Department of Immigration and Hong Thai travel agency as well as medics and psychologists.

Lau said the city's government has issued the Black Outbound Travel Alert for the Philippines. The black alert is the highest level of Hong Kong's three-sign Outbound Travel Alert system, indicating a "severe threat" exists and all travel to the destination should be avoided.

[TRDood]

Why would they have to answer for anything? A former cop hijacked their bus with an assault rifle, it's not like they had anything to do with it.

Security of their tourist groups? Policies and strategies when an unexpected event occurs?

On top of that, this is Hong Kong we are talking about. Even though it's not within their control, their reputation will still be directly affected.

[marc0lishuz]

All this because he wanted his job back? oO

They should've just been like - "Ok you can have your job back!" ... then snag him when he leaves the bus.

[InvisibleSoul]

GL Philippine tourism industry - when your former cops hijacks buses

Yes, because a single random instance is indicative of an ongoing problem.

Security of their tourist groups? Policies and strategies when an unexpected event occurs?
You've got to be joking. Yes, let's hire security guards armed with automatic weapons for every single tourist bus around the world just because there is a 0.0000000001% chance that some random person will storm the bus and take the passengers hostage.

This is a completely RANDOM event. It doesn't matter how dilligent the tourist company is, there is NOTHING logical they could have done or planned for in advance to prevent this from happening.

On top of that, this is Hong Kong we are talking about. Even though it's not within their control, their reputation will still be directly affected.
Maybe, but if so it's only due to people out there with illogical minds. Those with good logic reasoning will understand it's a complete anomoly. Saying you won't use that tourist company anymore because of this incident is like saying you won't ever cross the street again because you heard someone got ran over.

[StylinRed]

Maybe, but if so it's only due to people out there with illogical minds. Those with good logic reasoning will understand it's a complete anomoly. Saying you won't use that tourist company anymore because of this incident is like saying you won't ever cross the street again because you heard someone got ran over.

i agree with all you've said but this last point you KNOW chinese people won't cross the street cuz someone died there especially so when more than 1 have died its "unlucky" etc ;)

sadly thats the mentality of quite a few people (trdood :D ) which is why one of the first articles notes the tourist agency saying that their tour guide tried to stop (who they thought) was a police officer from hitching a ride on the bus :rolleyes: damage control from the outset? sure seems like it



They should've just been like - "Ok you can have your job back!" ... then snag him when he leaves the bus.

rofl yeah i wonder what his reaction would have been like? "... really....? wooot!"

[FerrariEnzo]

anyone has the video link for this?

[CP.AR]

Yes, because a single random instance is indicative of an ongoing problem.



at least the ones from Hong Kong - one event like this and it would take some time for the tourism from HK to recover. Maybe it's just me, but similarly, I will think twice before doing a trip via Greyhound - even though the beheading incident was completely random, and from years ago.

Sure some may say "Picard you gotta get your head out of the gutter"... but hey, psychological barriers are the toughest to get through.

[TRDood]

Yes, because a single random instance is indicative of an ongoing problem.


You've got to be joking. Yes, let's hire security guards armed with automatic weapons for every single tourist bus around the world just because there is a 0.0000000001% chance that some random person will storm the bus and take the passengers hostage.

This is a completely RANDOM event. It doesn't matter how dilligent the tourist company is, there is NOTHING logical they could have done or planned for in advance to prevent this from happening.


Maybe, but if so it's only due to people out there with illogical minds. Those with good logic reasoning will understand it's a complete anomoly. Saying you won't use that tourist company anymore because of this incident is like saying you won't ever cross the street again because you heard someone got ran over.

I totally agree with you that this is a random act and a logical person will understand that the tourist company cannot do anything to prevent this from happening.

Has 911 prevented me from flying? No.

But what I am saying is, that tourist company has been in HK for many years, the CEO will have some work in maintaining their public image and please the media. Plus, not everyone is rational, especially in HK.

Maybe a stretch comparison, but this has been proven with the Edison Chen case. To me, he is a hero for sleeping with so many girls. But for Hong Kong, they see it as a "scandal".

Regardless, it sucks to run into a crazy gunman while families are having a fun time. :(

[SkinnyPupp]

Security of their tourist groups? Policies and strategies when an unexpected event occurs?

On top of that, this is Hong Kong we are talking about. Even though it's not within their control, their reputation will still be directly affected.
I see your point about Hong Kong, but that's not really the agent's fault. As far as security, not sure what you'd expect them to do when confronted by a man with an assault rifle...

I remember Hong Thai being mentioned in another incident a few years ago. Forgot what it was though :(

I bought tickets to Thailand from them before, they have good prices :thumbsup:

[dachinesedude]

cant really blame the tourist company, like they expected some dude with a M16 hijacking their bus, how often does that shit happens right?

RIP, hope the tourists bought travel insurance

[greyfixation]

Watching the videos, I could hear background laughter from the audience at odd times. It makes me go 'what the fuck'.

[woob]

Apparently he was part of a group of cops busted for extortion. They're all probably fall guys for even deeper corruption

Knowing the Philippines... most definitely. Fuck man... cops on a daily basis pull people over for no reason, just to extort a small amount of money from them.

[Ludepower]

watching the video...they had many chances to sniper him dead...clear as day.

This was a complete failure by the police force.

[will068]

Knowing the Philippines... most definitely. Fuck man... cops on a daily basis pull people over for no reason, just to extort a small amount of money from them.

This.

The majority of extravagant kidnapping cases are done by cops/soldiers to extort money. Blame all levels of government for nurturing this extreme level of corrupt environment for decades. From one of the best countries in Asia 50 years ago to one of the most poorest countries in the world today.

[you!]

They should've just been like - "Ok you can have your job back!" ... then snag him when he leaves the bus.

exactly what i was thinking...i really wonder if anybody in the scene even thought about this

[BNR32_Coupe]

watching the video...they had many chances to sniper him dead...clear as day.

This was a complete failure by the police force.

Any idea what they said in the negotiations?

This guy was simply asking for his job back. The negotiators could have simply told the gun man "fine, you start on monday, 6am" in exchange for letting the hostages go.

[Noir]

watching the video...they had many chances to sniper him dead...clear as day.

This was a complete failure by the police force.

I must be watching too much TV but it could be because until a hostage is harmed, police officers are trying to bring in the hostage-taker alive as well.

[AccordCouped]

fucking flips..

[waves13]

Anyone have the link for the full video?

I can only find the last bit on youtube.

[darkfroggy]

Couldn't they have just thrown a flashbang and stormed in while everyone is stunned/dazed?

Granted, it's not a very great solution but it would probably get the job done.

They had lots of chances to snipe him, don't see why they didn't do that there.

[AccordCouped]

Couldn't they have just thrown a flashbang and stormed in while everyone is stunned/dazed?

Granted, it's not a very great solution but it would probably get the job done.

They had lots of chances to snipe him, don't see why they didn't do that there.

flashbangs are pretty deadly.. they can make your ears bleed and fuck up your eyes permanently especially if its so close

[TRDood]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRt1aNsNM0c&NR=1

Wow, what happened at the end!?

[TRDood]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtFszNQ8SpU&NR=1

[wouwou]

I totally agree with you that this is a random act and a logical person will understand that the tourist company cannot do anything to prevent this from happening.

Has 911 prevented me from flying? No.

But what I am saying is, that tourist company has been in HK for many years, the CEO will have some work in maintaining their public image and please the media. Plus, not everyone is rational, especially in HK.

Maybe a stretch comparison, but this has been proven with the Edison Chen case. To me, he is a hero for sleeping with so many girls. But for Hong Kong, they see it as a "scandal".

Regardless, it sucks to run into a crazy gunman while families are having a fun time. :(
The tour guide is the first one to call and break the news about the kidnapping, within a minute something went wrong.

I can't really see what the company can do, this time it is 100% the cops' fault, I mean, the vid speaks for itself.

[PiuYi]

Aquino said the news media may have worsened the situation by giving the shooter "a bird's-eye view of the entire situation," but said he had little choice but to let it play out the way it did. "If we ordered a news blackout, you would tell us we were guilty of censoring news," he said. "We did vow transparency."

what the fuck kinda reasoning is that?? i think temporarily censoring news is justified when peoples lives are at stake....

[AVS_Racing]

fuck RIP

[TRD3000GT]

That's just horrible! RIP...

[luibei]

pls dont tell me the deaths occurred when the police entered the bus near the end

[Solo_D33A]

I still don't understand why are they molesting the bus instead of sniping or charge in... What's the point in hammering and breaking the windows? hostages may well be sitting that the window seats that when they throw in the hammers, the shattered glass may deal significant damage along with possibility of injuring or killing hostages by the hammer.

Really, when in a hostage event, you hear gun shots from within, that's already the worst case scenario, if they charge in, at least the suspect may most likely shoot at the attackers, which have bullet proof vests instead of what happened here, murdering innocent civilians. There should be more lighting to at least see through the curtains with shadows or light in front the the bus to see the suspect, and proceed to have sniper in front by the light that the suspect will be hard to notice the sniper.

RIP for the tragic ending.

[SkinnyPupp]

pls dont tell me the deaths occurred when the police entered the bus near the end
He was shooting them before some people even escaped. When the driver was let go, he said he thought all the passengers were dead already

[TRDood]

pls dont tell me the deaths occurred when the police entered the bus near the end

if you look at part 4, the cops threw in some yellowish gas. i hope that didn't trigger the gunman to go crazy and spray the hostages.

ohly fuck, a 21 yo girl and 14 yo girl got killed! :(

http://www.chinanews.com.cn/tp/hd/2010/08-23/U90P4T303D4836F14530DT20100823210218.jpg

the body to the right is apparently the tour guide.

[TRDood]

He was shooting them before some people even escaped. When the driver was let go, he said he thought all the passengers were dead already

I still don't understand why the driver said everyone got killed.

[SkinnyPupp]

I can imagine everyone was playing dead at least, once shots were fired

[Dinan3]

I still don't understand why the driver said everyone got killed.

Probably some of them pretend to be dead. I cannot imagine the horror inside, hiding next to a dead body, wondering when you're next to go. RIP. :(

[SkunkWorks]

Absolutely brutal, RIP.

[TRDood]

Here might be the answer:

在事件中獲救的團員梁太，丈夫遇害。她說，丈夫從旅遊巴的後排衝上前，阻止槍手殺人而犧牲，而特警營救時， 不斷聽到槍聲，子彈更射到她的座位，她不滿菲律賓警方營救行動遲緩。在事件中首名獲釋的本港女導遊，則形容 自己執回一命。

Translation:

- Mrs. Leung got rescued while her husband was killed
- When the hostages were forced to the back of the bus, her husband ran up and blocked the bullets as the gunman sprays
- However, at the same time, the SWAT team keep on shooting at the bus. The bullets even hit her seat.
- Mrs. Leung is not pleased with the flip SWAT team because they were being too slow

Source: http://hk.news.yahoo.com/article/100823/18/jufu.html

[SkinnyPupp]

AppleDaily's whacky animated video is u (http://hk.dv.nextmedia.com/template/dv_channel/index.php?fuseaction=dv15.player&mode=section&id=4104&range=d&dv_iss=20100824&sort=view&iss_id=20100824&sec_id=4104&art_id=14376579&av_id=14376780&page=1)p. It looks like they are saying he flipped out after seeing his brother arrested on the news. I've never been on a bus that shows live TV...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACMDgzAwzOg

[TRDood]

so... the row of gun shots near the front row is by the gunman? it's getting sad looking at more of the live videos. fuck.

[iEatClams]

Knowing the Philippines... most definitely. Fuck man... cops on a daily basis pull people over for no reason, just to extort a small amount of money from them.

This.

The majority of extravagant kidnapping cases are done by cops/soldiers to extort money. Blame all levels of government for nurturing this extreme level of corrupt environment for decades. From one of the best countries in Asia 50 years ago to one of the most poorest countries in the world today.

Fcking brutal in Phillipines. . . . soo many kidnapping scandals. Government there is corrupt to the max.

Vietnam has bad corruption too, although not as bad as phillipines. cops would come around every month to collect "tax".

[ASG111]

wait... i don't get the 2 dozen bullet roles that riddled thru the windows near the end of the video. was this by the gunman or sniper? if it's the gunman, is it where he killed the 7 hostages? or was this after?

[6793026]

I agree this is sad, but really think of it from the police and SWAT's perspective.
I hear people saying why don't you just snipe. Do you know how much decision making and red tape you have to go through?

Negotiator to his boss who's analyzing the situation, then to police and multiple commander in chief (SWAT, police, negotiation specialist) AND then you probably have to go through the president of Philippines.

Decisions are made ONLY at the very last moment when negotiation FAILS with a point of no return would there be an order to kill. That takes another good hour until that passes down million of levels until it reaches to the sniper and his "partner".

Then you'll have to do the math and consider the muzzle velocity on the equipment you have, the level of accuracy, the sub-MOA (Minute Of Angle)accuracy, rifle twist ratios and eg// bullets between 40 and 65 grains you have to compensate the tumble after penetrating a target.

We have to keep in mind these are REAL bullets we are talking about, this is not COD MW2. Stop flaming... and just be thankful.

To put this into perspective, imagine you're playing paintball and you tell me if you're really going to be Rambo and just rush in. These are real lives and not where you can insert more coins and continue.

[Not really racist!]

Couldn't they have just thrown a flashbang and stormed in while everyone is stunned/dazed?

Granted, it's not a very great solution but it would probably get the job done.

They had lots of chances to snipe him, don't see why they didn't do that there.

This ain't CS 1.6 buddy, flashbangs are deadly and don't mysteriously go away after a couple seconds.

Horrible news, at least some people walked out free.

RIP

[van19]

shit ..

RIP

[Anjew]

They should've just been like - "Ok you can have your job back!" ... then snag him when he leaves the bus.

this has gotta be the best idea.....

i mean not so much as to give his job back but give him an offer to re-establish his pension and clear his name of the extortion... but he will still need to goto jail for the hostages...

thats a believable compromise.... then when he comes out, shoot his ass...

[moomooCow]

^ lol but you have to think about how much shit people would give the government for lying like that. + future hostage situations wouldn't work at all because there's no trust anymore..

[ds226]

Different angle, sniper firing multiple rounds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfwSZuts1w0&feature=player_embedded

[Teriyaki]

How many shots did the "sniper" need to take for him to take down one guy? Sounded like he just barraged the whole bus with gunfire. fuck

[LancerBoy]

I agree this is sad, but really think of it from the police and SWAT's perspective.
I hear people saying why don't you just snipe. Do you know how much decision making and red tape you have to go through?

Negotiator to his boss who's analyzing the situation, then to police and multiple commander in chief (SWAT, police, negotiation specialist) AND then you probably have to go through the president of Philippines.

Decisions are made ONLY at the very last moment when negotiation FAILS with a point of no return would there be an order to kill. That takes another good hour until that passes down million of levels until it reaches to the sniper and his "partner".

Then you'll have to do the math and consider the muzzle velocity on the equipment you have, the level of accuracy, the sub-MOA (Minute Of Angle)accuracy, rifle twist ratios and eg// bullets between 40 and 65 grains you have to compensate the tumble after penetrating a target.

We have to keep in mind these are REAL bullets we are talking about, this is not COD MW2. Stop flaming... and just be thankful.

To put this into perspective, imagine you're playing paintball and you tell me if you're really going to be Rambo and just rush in. These are real lives and not where you can insert more coins and continue.

JUST BE THANKFUL????? For what?

A bunch of gung ho farmers playing SWAT, with a 50% hostage lives recovery rate?

It took them 45 min trying to get into the bus, and they still failed using farmer tools a hammer and an axe. Go see what the SWAT teams around the world are using to breach a bus.

IT WAS A FAILURE.

The only thing I'm THANKFUL for is it was a bus, and not a 747. Fuck.

[bcedhk]

suppositly, a person died because the swat teams sleg hammer wacked someone in the head.

the swat/police team there is gonna get a lot of beating thats for sure.

[BlacknJean]

is that really a swat team? those guys look nervous as hell!


i bet half of the hostages were killed by the police

[murmur]

is that really a swat team? those guys look nervous as hell!


i bet half of the hostages were killed by the police

not surprisingly, it's possible.
apparently couple of the sniper's shots accidentally killed the window side passenger.

now there's a discussion stating that one of the sledge hammer accidentally slammed against the hostage's head..leading to his death.

all of this are still unconfirmed
yet those might be mysteries that will never be revealed :(

[bcedhk]

is that really a swat team? those guys look nervous as hell!


i bet half of the hostages were killed by the police

well i guess you would be nervous as heck when your country's police lacks funding and training... just look, some of the dudes were holding battons... if this was the states, they would had decked out body armor, xray goggles and like robots...

[Solo_D33A]

Many people apparently are going to wear black tomorrow (today the 24th...) to mourn the deaths...

I most likely will even when I'm mostly detached from HK and never plans to go back...

[SkinnyPupp]

Nobody is wearing black who wouldn't have been anyway.

The Google logo at com.hk is white today with no explanation why.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[BNR32_Coupe]

notice how everyone on this thread forgot about the negotiating, but focused on the nostalgic counter-strike type of action. some of you guys should fly over to phillipines with your expert knowledge and shoot first, ask questions later mentality

[you!]

wow it looks like the snipers just open fired without knowing where the target actually is..all this while in heavy rain too..

[Solo_D33A]

notice how everyone on this thread forgot about the negotiating, but focused on the nostalgic counter-strike type of action. some of you guys should fly over to phillipines with your expert knowledge and shoot first, ask questions later mentality

They did negotiate, it was going well until they arrested his brother as well, then it all went downhill.

[Noir]

They did negotiate, it was going well until they arrested his brother as well, then it all went downhill.

Whow, I missed this bit of the story. I thought he was assisting the negotiation process.

[SpuGen]

Whow, I missed this bit of the story. I thought he was assisting the negotiation process.


Senior Police Officer 2 Gregorio Mendoza, the brother of hostage-taking cop, joined the negotiations, urging him to surrender peacefully.

Gregorio walked away from the negotiations within five minutes, telling his brother "Walang mangyayari dito (Nothing will happen here)."

5 whole Minutes.

[SkinnyPupp]

As if the poorly trained police weren't bad enough.. How about poorly equipped?

[mx100]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs398.snc4/46158_153670187977466_153381241339694_463267_18509 53_n.jpg

I see what they did there... hmm

[SkinnyPupp]

So you think they only destroyed the windows because that's where the signs were?

Hmmm

Apparently the police are directly responsible for 4 deaths, including one person being hit with the hammer.

I was actually thinking about the Philippines a few days ago, considering it for a vacation next month. But then I remembered what a shit hole everyone says Manila is (not saying anything about the people). Then this happens...

Yes it's an isolated incident for someone to go nuts and hijack a bus, but how they handled it is indicative of how the country is run, and that is the problem.

[mx100]

So you think they only destroyed the windows because that's where the signs were?

Hmmm



I don't really see a reason for it, might be just coincidence, nonetheless its an interesting fact.

[TRDood]

So you think they only destroyed the windows because that's where the signs were?

Hmmm

Apparently the police are directly responsible for 4 deaths, including one person being hit with the hammer.

I was actually thinking about the Philippines a few days ago, considering it for a vacation next month. But then I remembered what a shit hole everyone says Manila is (not saying anything about the people). Then this happens...

Yes it's an isolated incident for someone to go nuts and hijack a bus, but how they handled it is indicative of how the country is run, and that is the problem.

Another illogical person invisiblesoul! :rolleyes:

It angers me that the police accounted for more than half of hostage deaths.
On the bus today, I was thinking how would Canadian forces react to an incident like this? hmmm.

[SkinnyPupp]

For one, they probably wouldn't have tried pulling a door open that can only be opened by pushing it.

And if they had decided to attack, it surely wouldn't have taken an hour.

The more I watch this, the more disappointed I am, in that the poorly trained police lead to more deaths rather than preventing them.

[TRDood]

They did negotiate, it was going well until they arrested his brother as well, then it all went downhill.

Read on that chinanews forum yesterday that they have arrested his brother as well as his family, saying that they are part of this.

I guess that really pissed him off. However, Mendoza probably only killed the tour guide (for making a call) and 2 others.

Damn police killed 4! All members of the Leung family got killed except for the wife.

[TRDood]

For one, they probably wouldn't have tried pulling a door open that can only be opened by pushing it.

And if they had decided to attack, it surely wouldn't have taken an hour.

The more I watch this, the more disappointed I am, in that the poorly trained police lead to more deaths rather than preventing them.

They also tried to enter from the back of the bus, but isn't the back the engine and completely blocked off? If they can't pull the front door open, the emergency door can be pulled out as well.

The tear gas was uncalled for. Thankfully when they "hear" all the hostages were killed, they didn't throw a grenade in there.

[mx100]

They also tried to enter from the back of the bus, but isn't the back the engine and completely blocked off? If they can't pull the front door open, the emergency door can be pulled out as well.



There was a window at the back, BUT even if they did manage to break it, they'll probably need a ladder or some levage to climb in (WHICH THEY DID NOT PREPARE / PLAN FOR)...whats the point?

http://www.mid-day.com/imagedata/2010/aug/manilahd.jpg

fucking dumb.

[Red 5]

Nobody is wearing black who wouldn't have been anyway.

The Google logo at com.hk is white today with no explanation why.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

The color white is the color for mourning/death for Chinese people.

[danned]

they are not swat
SWAT
Swat: We Are Trash

[Ferra]

I agree this is sad, but really think of it from the police and SWAT's perspective.
I hear people saying why don't you just snipe. Do you know how much decision making and red tape you have to go through?

Negotiator to his boss who's analyzing the situation, then to police and multiple commander in chief (SWAT, police, negotiation specialist) AND then you probably have to go through the president of Philippines.

Decisions are made ONLY at the very last moment when negotiation FAILS with a point of no return would there be an order to kill. That takes another good hour until that passes down million of levels until it reaches to the sniper and his "partner".

Then you'll have to do the math and consider the muzzle velocity on the equipment you have, the level of accuracy, the sub-MOA (Minute Of Angle)accuracy, rifle twist ratios and eg// bullets between 40 and 65 grains you have to compensate the tumble after penetrating a target.

We have to keep in mind these are REAL bullets we are talking about, this is not COD MW2. Stop flaming... and just be thankful.

To put this into perspective, imagine you're playing paintball and you tell me if you're really going to be Rambo and just rush in. These are real lives and not where you can insert more coins and continue.
I bet you the police would've shot him the first chances they got (and they had plenty) if there weren't so many cameras and media attention pointing at it.

TBH, the gunman didn't seem that violent in the beginning...he let the elders and children leave, he stood unguarded in the open quite a few times...
i wonder what exactly triggered him to go on a bloodbath...i have a feeling it is something the police did...

it is sad watching the wife said how her entire family is now dead...
I think the police handled the situation extremely poorly...it is like they never had any plan in the first place...

[josel_atr]

this is one effed up shit.

RIP to the unfortunate tourists.

anyway, for your future reference, the coutry's name is Philippines.

[6793026]

I am thankful there were still people alive, the dude could have been a suicidal bomber etc. Don't get me wrong, YES, they handled this poorly, even the president said they didn't do such a good job negotiating and lack of equipment. The only issue I really want to see if how 'accurate' the report on how many bullets were shot by the police killing the hostages, (i'm going to take a stab and say zero)

Like most of you have said, he wasn't hostile at first, he did let hostages go therefore the president and the police commander in chief did not allow anyone to go shoot him. At situations like this, do you know how much heat you'll get if you were the one who decided to just shoot (without direct orders)? Not only would you get in shit for pulling a stunt to just try and shoot him but the consequences for not listening to orders....keep in mind the dude ain't Jack Bauer.

Anyone have the youtube video of a Chinese female negotiator who just went and shot the hostile even with the hostage on his arm while she was passing him a bottled water. (that scene would never happen in US / Canada)

I am not in SWAT but how else would you get into the bus? Flashbang? Gas grenade? You can't just rush into the bus. I would for someone to tell me WHEN the last time a sniper was credited to ending hostile hostage situation? It's extremely rare.

Lastly, there are 5 people with Canadian passports, The Leung's family I believe were mom, dad, brother and 2 daughters. The two daugthers were vacationing in Hk and decided to go to Philppines.

[marc0lishuz]

Can we please throw these retards on that bus, and save the tourists instead? Jesus fuck. Have some respect.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs380.snc4/44314_1430689961511_1060728855_31012504_4127509_n. jpg

這是一幅令人反感的照片。一群學生在災難現場，在巴士前面拍照，部分人還在笑。有這樣質素的總統，便有這樣 質素的人民，這樣質素的警隊。恕我一竹篙打一船人。（路透社圖片）

http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/photo.php?pid=31012504&id=1060728855&fbid=1430689961511

[Noir]

I am not in SWAT but how else would you get into the bus? Flashbang? Gas grenade? You can't just rush into the bus. I would for someone to tell me WHEN the last time a sniper was credited to ending hostile hostage situation? It's extremely rare.

Judging by the know-it-alls in this thread, I'm guessing: Aimbot.


TBH, I'm not really as disappointed in the outcome of the hostage crisis as I am in Philippines as a whole and the system that precipitated this event. I'm surprised nobody's taking more issue in the bigger flaw in the country's long-standing corrupted bodies of authority than an incapable 3rd world SWAT which one sort of expected. I sure as hell weren't expecting Navy SEAL tactical type shit.

[TRDood]

^^^^^^^

Oh my, mark their faces. No one in HK will hire them as maids.

[Minata]

this is tragic news, and i have to agree the phillipines is a poorly run country. it's very very unfortunate to hear. even though there is every right to hate and be angry, i don't understand the rising racism (HK) people feel towards phillipinos (i.e. friend's fb status = i want to punch everyone with phillipine passports). when i went to manila, EVERYONE there was friendly and helpful.

[TRDood]

this is tragic news, and i have to agree the phillipines is a poorly run country. it's very very unfortunate to hear. even though there is every right to hate and be angry, i don't understand the rising racism (HK) people feel towards phillipinos (i.e. friend's fb status = i want to punch everyone with phillipine passports). when i went to manila, EVERYONE there was friendly and helpful.

Can't really blame them, it is their attitude/thinking.

1. Cops being afraid to go into the bus
2. Corruption
3. Top it off, you have little girls smiling and taking pictures with the bus.

I will not hate philipinos after this incident, but I will definitely have second thoughts before stepping into a less developed country for my next vacation.

[marc0lishuz]

I will definitely have second thoughts before stepping into a less developed country for my next vacation.
Yes, because these types of attacks only happen in LDC's. :thumbsup:

I'm sure there will be a "post-9/11"-like hatred and racial profiling against Filipinos, unfortunately, no matter how "open-minded" and "understanding" one claims to be.

[SkinnyPupp]

this is tragic news, and i have to agree the phillipines is a poorly run country. it's very very unfortunate to hear. even though there is every right to hate and be angry, i don't understand the rising racism (HK) people feel towards phillipinos (i.e. friend's fb status = i want to punch everyone with phillipine passports). when i went to manila, EVERYONE there was friendly and helpful.
Your FB friends are racist cunts, that's why

[asian_XL]

this is what happened

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACMDgzAwzOg

[greyfixation]

Even the victims on the bus confirmed that the gunman was not hostile and did not threaten them in anyway at first. He even comforted them by saying no one will be harmed, and if anyone dies, it would be most likely himself.

Watching his brother and son getting arrested however triggered him to go berserk and shoot.

The brother did not have actual permission to negotiate with him, and was arrested for conspiracy.

They sure didn't think on the consequences of their actions thoroughly...

[Vansterdam]

wow that apply daily video was preety dramatic.

so im guessing judging from that clip the cops sprayed the bus after they gased it and then killed 4 people accidently? wow

heard a canadian and his 2 daughters were among the dead

RIP

http://news.sympatico.ctv.ca/home/canadian_two_daughters_killed_in_bus_hijacking/d3b8eeca

[Solo_D33A]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6gJy3hmYcI&feature=related @ 10:52 you can clearly see machinegunning from inside out, a person on that seat isn't moving, the bullet holes appears to have been at that person's head area, at 11:18 you can hear some people at the back laughing :(

[matter]

Besides being a last resort, a sniper knows that shooting through that type of automotive glass AT ANY ANGLE could result in refraction of the bullet. Unless the guy was very close to the window, there is not the 100% certainty the marksman will hit the target + bullet has not deflected + bullet still has enough velocity to kill him. If they missed, it would probably piss him off more.

Why not use a Barrett or higher power bullet? possibly a lack of equipment, but more likely the chance the bullet would pass through and hit whatever was behind the hijacker with unknown probability again.

[DOHCVTEC]

Terribly sorry for the victims' families.

Here's an article from the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11069616) on what the Philippine police did wrong. Not trying to play "armchair SDU commander" here, but I think the first item in that article is the key - after the breakdown in negotiations, of course. If the police do decide to launch an assault, they should commit to it and not do a half-ass boy-scout job, effectively only vandalising the bus for nearly an hour.

If an assault on a bus is ordered, this is one way to do it - 10 seconds and it's over: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJojZlNcKow

In China, however, a recent hostage situation ended like this (which, to me, is simply irresponsible on the part of the police, despite the positive outcome): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsPaqWTLUN4&feature=fvst

[tripleE]

^ the hostage was already stabbed multiple times and was bleeding to death

[CP.AR]

diu the more I look at this whole mess, the more enraged I become....

seriously... WTF

This picture is just FUCKING FAIL
http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/8942/failq.jpg

WHY THE FUCK ARE THEY EMPLOYING A BREACH TACTIC WHEN THE NEAREST GODDAMN POINT OF ENTRY IS 2-3 FEET ABOVE THEM?

AND WHY THE FUCK ARE THERE SO MANY OF THEM IN A LINE?? LINING UP FOR ICECREAM?


Manila admits to fault
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11076735


EDIT: Regarding that bus breach video above - you have to keep in mind that the Philippine situation had a full bus load of people right next to the windows - simply blowing them out was not an option.

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/7863/44314143068996151110607.jpg

[dinamix]

whats with the racism here?..theres over 2 million chinese filipinos in the phillipines...

[DOHCVTEC]

^ the hostage was already stabbed multiple times and was bleeding to death

Really? I take my opinion back then. To me it looked like she was definitely stabbed, but was not bleeding to death (she was still conscience and able to stand).

The woman cop has guts! Very steady in shooting.

[DOHCVTEC]

whats with the racism here?..theres over 2 million chinese filipinos in the phillipines...

There's a remote theory out there that the hostage-taker specifically choose Chinese tourists because he himself was discharged from the police by a Chinese-Filipino, Alfredo Lim, the ex-Mayor of Manila.

[DOHCVTEC]

Not to promote any racism whatsoever, I can't help but become angry whenever I read more of this on the news. My criticisms are solely at the Filipino police as an organisation, specifically the commanders and directors who ordered their ill-equipped, improperly-trained men to proceed with the assault. For all we know, the men who actually carried out the assault may not even have been SWAT (they sure didn't look like it).

Focusing only on the tactical side, here's what security experts have to say:

The following comments of President Benigno Aquino, the Manila Police Commander and some non-governmental security experts on the way the Manila Police handled the hostage-taking crisis on August 23,2010, have been extracted from despatches of the Agence France Press (AFP) :

* President Aquino: The tragedy highlighted many flaws in the ability of Philippine security forces to handle hostage situations. "There are a lot of things (that) resulted in a tragedy. Obviously we should be improving." One of the problems was the way the crisis played out through the media, with the gunman being allowed to speak on radio and watch events live on the bus's television, giving him insights into police actions. Waiting more than 10 hours before storming the bus was the right course of action, because police believed until that point they could convince the gunman to stand down.

* Mr.Leocadio Santiago, Manila Police Commander: "We saw some obvious shortcomings in terms of capability and tactics used, or the procedure employed and we are now going to investigate this।"

* Mr.John Harrison, Assistant Professor and homeland security analyst at the Nanyang Technological University in Singapore:"The fact that there was essentially live video was mistake number one." There should have been a media blackout to deny the hijacker feedback on what was going on around him. Instead, he was able to follow events -- including frenzied speculation by serving and former police chiefs appearing on Philippine networks -- via the bus' internal TV.

* Mr.Dennis Wong Sing Wing, an Associate Professor of applied social studies at the City University in Hong Kong:The police operation was "really shocking" to watch as it unfolded live on TV। "I am very angry about their unprofessional performance.They are indirectly responsible for the deaths of the Hong Kong people." The policemen assigned to end the hostage-taking appeared to lack modern weapons and communication equipment, and as a result were hesitant to attack the gunman, who was armed with an M-16 assault rifle. The Police failed to calm the hostage-taker down and hear him out.

* An unnamed retired Philippine military official who wrote a counter-terrorism manual and now runs a security consultancy:The police had enough expertise and equipment to deal with such an incident, but they were not put to use। "We have everything, except the execution was poorly done." He was critical of the stop-go negotiations and "tentative" assault launched after gunshots rang out from inside the bus, adding that the police should have disabled the TV monitor early on."Contact (by negotiators) should have been constant. It's the talking that does a lot.When you order an assault, it has to be an assault. There is no such thing as a tentative assault.If 10 policemen have to die, they have to die in that assault." Many of the policemen on the scene, some of them seen crouching without any body armour behind patrol cars, did not appear to be fully trained Special Weapons and Tactics (SWAT) personnel. "They just put helmets on certain people."

* Trial judge Jaime Santiago, a former SWAT officer:The police failed to impose crowd control in the hostage site and panicked after hearing gunshots from the bus। "They should have put a tactical force, SWAT snipers and an assault team on standby during the negotiation so that if the hostage-taker started harming people, they would act."

* Mr.Lionel de Souza, a former officer of Singapore's Criminal Investigation Department, recalled a similar hijacking of a bus in Singapore: "I think that was in 1978 in Seng Poh Road in Tiong Bahru। The police were chasing some robbers and they jumped onto an SBS bus which was (carrying) passengers। (The robbers) sort of held them hostage। At that time, hostage negotiation was not well known। Nevertheless, the retired assistant commissioner - Tan Kah Wan - I think he did a good job. There was no loss of lives but there was the arrest of the hostage takers." In the Manila hostage tragedy, one image that left many doubting was the action of armed police who had crept up around the bus."They started smashing the windows with the sledgehammer, trying to wrench open the door with a rope. That by itself is a provocation to the criminal, and because he is already agitated, adding more pressure to his already troubled mind would entail him to sort of do things that a person with a proper frame of mind would not do. He may be a decorated police officer, he may know the law, but these tensions were building within him." Negotiations could have gone on longer as it was important to wear down the hijacker in such a crisis. Singapore is well-poised to handle a similar crisis, with hostage negotiators being well-trained.

[will068]

There's a remote theory out there that the hostage-taker specifically choose Chinese tourists because he himself was discharged from the police by a Chinese-Filipino, Alfredo Lim, the ex-Mayor of Manila.

A lot of police officers hate him because he has a strict policy with regards to corruption. Most likely why the hostage taker was terminated. However, Alfredo Lim was a corrupt public figure in his heyday as well.

Keep in mind, 60-80% of the police over there succumb to corruption. The remaining few are newer officers or are just scared for their lives to whistle blow. If everyone you report to is corrupt, they can easily make your life a living hell.

[marc0lishuz]

If an assault on a bus is ordered, this is one way to do it - 10 seconds and it's over: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJojZlNcKow

@ 0:10 ... first guy on the ramp bails lol

[soujiro]

Can we please throw these retards on that bus, and save the tourists instead? Jesus fuck. Have some respect.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs380.snc4/44314_1430689961511_1060728855_31012504_4127509_n. jpg

這是一幅令人反感的照片。一群學生在災難現場，在巴士前面拍照，部分人還在笑。有這樣質素的總統，便有這樣 質素的人民，這樣質素的警隊。恕我一竹篙打一船人。（路透社圖片）

http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/photo.php?
pid=31012504&id=1060728855&fbid=1430689961511


Its too bad that its not a crime to be completely tactless and disrespectful after a tragic event where innocent lives were lost.

If you look at their faces, it makes me even more angry. Girl #1 on the far left has an expression that looks like someone put something gross and smelly under her nose. Girl #2 has a sour look on her face and worst of all, the second to last girl has an obvious big-ass smile on her face.

At least try and appear solemn when your whole country was put to international shame due to incompetency from both the police force and the politicians who are supposed to be prepared for situations such as these.

I'm just glad they're wearing long ass skirts cause no one would want to see any more than they need to of these ugly-ass bitches anyways.

[BNR32_Coupe]

To all the filipino's feeling burned in this thread, one thing's for sure, you guys have awesome hostage takers!!

[Solo_D33A]

not only those students will take a picture with smiles.....:(

[PDA_86]

I was wondering just now....

Since the hostages have been taken over for several hours already. The gunman himself should be pretty fatigued from all the stress. If only the SWAT could've waited a bit longer, perhaps the gunman might crash or faint, preventing all that unnecessary firing?

[spoon.ek9]

just completely classless. how on earth do you pose for pictures at the scene of a tragedy like this? one of them appears to be smiling too.

[jdmsai]

^oh wow....are those the failed polices taking pictures in front of the bus with a smile? :mad:

[TRDood]

not only those students will take a picture with smiles.....:(

What the fuck???

These are trained forces too!!! Where's the professionalism? Are they not going to remove the bus and make it a local attraction? Fucking flips (sorry for being racist)
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[AznK]

Everything about this is fuckin sad...

RIP

[josel_atr]

god damn stupid filos.

im a full flip myself but i feel horrible seeing these pics. what are they thinking?!?!?!

i thank my mom for taking me to canada and live a better life.

[JoshuaWong]

uhhh what the fuk ? they might as well dress as talibans in front of the 911 ground zero site

[BlacknJean]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2298/2267569173_5001075916.jpg

real classy guys!

[Gumby]

What the frick? Might as well make it a tourist attraction now...:rolleyes:

[CP.AR]

I'm pretty sure the HK/Chinese government is going to give the flip gov't shit for those pictures (particularly the police ones)...

It's one thing to take pictures for evidence etc...
It's another thing to take pictures of you smiling in front of a tragic site.

[q0192837465]

http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/1748/41035460327361494543996.jpg

For those who can't read Chinese

Caption: It's safer to hide behid a shield

1 - Scared shitless
2 - Useless POS
English - Philippine Police
Example 1 - Don't be such a Philippine Police la

[krazynuck]

as im here in manila and my hotel is a short 3 min walk from where this happened i can tell u there were lots of people taking pictures of this all day with themselves posing . . . I however got the hell away from the area. . . .it was a sad day here yesterday in manila with a lot of angry hk nationals leaving the city
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[CP.AR]

^^i won't be surprised if there will actually be a new slang coming to HK in the near future... "Bun Bun ging chat"

[6793026]

People in HK are saying they will not hire anymore maids from Philippines, I highly doubt that's going to happen.

I think people taking pictures are really disrespectful but not as bad as the STUPID police for not sealing off the area. They should have tarps and have the area blocked off and treat it as a crime scene. I really do not think it is the best interest of people to be around the area.

People are being super racist right now, i was in philippines twice and I would go back. Just cause NY 911 happened, you don't see people say "do not go to NY"... this is getting out of hand.

[LUUUUUUUU]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11069616

[wouwou]

People in HK are saying they will not hire anymore maids from Philippines, I highly doubt that's going to happen.

I think people taking pictures are really disrespectful but not as bad as the STUPID police for not sealing off the area. They should have tarps and have the area blocked off and treat it as a crime scene. I really do not think it is the best interest of people to be around the area.

People are being super racist right now, i was in philippines twice and I would go back. Just cause NY 911 happened, you don't see people say "do not go to NY"... this is getting out of hand.
yea, but if you look like a Muslim in an USA airport, you will feel "special" even a few years after 911.

[TRDood]

People in HK are saying they will not hire anymore maids from Philippines, I highly doubt that's going to happen.

I think people taking pictures are really disrespectful but not as bad as the STUPID police for not sealing off the area. They should have tarps and have the area blocked off and treat it as a crime scene. I really do not think it is the best interest of people to be around the area.

People are being super racist right now, i was in philippines twice and I would go back. Just cause NY 911 happened, you don't see people say "do not go to NY"... this is getting out of hand.

Actually, Honger families are turning to Indonesian maids. Both of my grandmas have them because they can communicate in chinese (some) and hongers say that they are more obedient (dumber/simple minded). I don't know if that's true though.

Nonetheless, my grandma had her flip maid fired last year because she was being a total bitch.
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[JSilver]

There's so much direct racism on this thread its amazing.

I'm Filippino myself, and this almost makes me embarrassed to say that I am because of the dumb asses who couldn't do things right during the incident.

RIP

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

man.

first of all, people posing with the bus is no different than a hunter posing with his prey. or a soldier posing with whatever (enemy, blown up tank etc). It was probably the most exciting/only thing they've ever done in their careers. whatever.

second of all... shit man. after he shot the first guy in the bus... i mean, he's one guy with an m16. I know it sounds ballsy, but after one guy gets shot, you know you or someone else on the bus might get shot next. As the gunman walked by i woulda grabbed his m16 and just pointed it upwards, the m16 is a long rifle, you'll have plenty of torque if you grab it near the "front". 1-2 other people could have easily subdue him by tackling him, or like grabbing his eyes, throat whatever you can and just taking him down, then throw the rifle out the busted window or shoot him first then throw it out. done.

that woulda been my plan, and i woulda fuckin did it, cuz i'd rather take a chance than die. and I sure as hell woulda hoped someone else on the bus woulda taken a fucking hint as i was struggling with the gunman to come and fuckin grab the gun as well or grab him.

fuck man.

the cops fucked up. but the people inside could have saved themselves if they just took a little initiative. fuck ESPECIALLY after one guy was already killed, i woulda become a fucking martyr. my mission would be to fucking aim the rifle in another direction and not fucking let go till he expends all his rounds or try to pull the magazine out or whatever. i wouldn't of let go even if he was gouging my fucking eye out i don't care. fuck it if i get mortally wounded in the process at least i saved everyone else. man for real im so pissed no one on the bus grabbed his rifle or at least tried. but now that I think about it, maybe no one else on the bus would have got up to help at all. what a fucking sad world.

before any of you flame me, let me tell you, ive handled m16 variants for over 8 years, i KNOW anyone that tried could have made him point the rifle in another direction if they just fucking TRIED instead of sitting there. reminds me of 911, at least the passengers of one plane decided to take action.

martyrdom can be used in a positive way as well.

[wouwou]

man.

first of all, people posing with the bus is no different than a hunter posing with his prey. or a soldier posing with whatever (enemy, blown up tank etc). It was probably the most exciting/only thing they've ever done in their careers. whatever.

second of all... shit man. after he shot the first guy in the bus... i mean, he's one guy with an m16. I know it sounds ballsy, but after one guy gets shot, you know you or someone else on the bus might get shot next. As the gunman walked by i woulda grabbed his m16 and just pointed it upwards, the m16 is a long rifle, you'll have plenty of torque if you grab it near the "front". 1-2 other people could have easily subdue him by tackling him, or like grabbing his eyes, throat whatever you can and just taking him down, then throw the rifle out the busted window or shoot him first then throw it out. done.

that woulda been my plan, and i woulda fuckin did it, cuz i'd rather take a chance than die. and I sure as hell woulda hoped someone else on the bus woulda taken a fucking hint as i was struggling with the gunman to come and fuckin grab the gun as well or grab him.

fuck man.

the cops fucked up. but the people inside could have saved themselves if they just took a little initiative. fuck ESPECIALLY after one guy was already killed, i woulda become a martyr fuck it if i get mortally wounded in the process at least i saved everyone else. man for real im so pissed no one on the bus grabbed his rifle.

before any of you flame me, let me tell you, ive handled m16 variants for over 8 years, i KNOW anyone that tried could have made him point the rifle in another direction if they just fucking TRIED instead of sitting there. reminds me of 911, at least the passengers of one plane decided to take action.

martyrdom can be used in a positive way as well.
some random HK C-Lai with her husband, and kids against a trained officer with a M-16.

Yeah, I don't think so.

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

dude, i don't care. a kid probably wouldn't of done anything. but even a middle aged man that "ran to block the bullets" woulda been smart enough to get up and help if someone else was struggling.

trained officer my ass. trained in what way? someone has two hands near the front of a long rifle, has more torque than you have over the rifle unless you're holding the other end the same way. a fuckin C-lai can even help during the struggle, just grab ontop him and start biting, start clawing, fuck anything. the man's power is in that rifle, which coulda been taken away or disabled if someone had enough courage.

and like i said, maybe not at first, but after someone else gets shot, you can be the type that becomes a coward or a martyr, cuz under both options means your death, i'd choose martyr anyday.

[SkinnyPupp]

Blaming poorly trained police force is one thing, but blaming the hostages? What the fuck is wrong with you?

[Solo_D33A]

how would you know when you're on the bus traumatized that he does not have any other weapon?

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

Blaming poorly trained police force is one thing, but blaming the hostages? What the fuck is wrong with you?

i'm not blaming them for the incident, but you cannot put 100% blame on the police.

police are here to protect and serve you, yes, but you have to protect and serve yourself as well.

i aint gonna sit there and put all hope on the police, neither should they.

I'm not blaming them for anything, i'm just saying, if any physically fit man survived the incident, or if I survived that incident, and didn't do anything about it at all, i would live a life full of fucking regret.

WOULDNT YOU?


how would you know when you're on the bus traumatized that he does not have any other weapon?

I wouldn't be that traumatized, half my brain would be in shock, half of it would be racing trying to figure out how to get out or how to make my plan work. for real. i wouldn't care if he had a knife or another gun. i told you, martyrdom. I would have TRIED to do something no matter what.
if he had another weapon it would have to be small to be concealed on him. a knife? another small hand gun? ok whatever, i woulda still tried to grab the fucking rifle. and i sure god fucking damn hope that if anyone of you guys were on the bus with me, you would have tried to help me take him down as soon as you saw me struggling.

seriously. the only guy that did anything was the dude that ran down the aisle to block the bullets. and that was probably a split second last decision of his life. if only there were 2 people like him on the bus.


C'MON ppl. yeah yeah bashing the cops, we can all do that, we already know the cops totally fucked up. BUT DONT ANY OF YOU WONDER -WHAT THE FUCK- is going on in the hostages heads? or if ANYONE of you were on the bus, wouldn't you of TRIED? or at least HELPED someone who TRIED?

you guys can blame the cops all you want, but when the day comes where we're in a similar situation, i sure as hell hope im not in the same room with you while you just cower in the corner. and i sure as hell hope if someone with you decides to do something, you have the the balls to get up and help after someone else has taken initiative.

there's gotta be at least 1 person on revscene who isnt a complete fucking coward. i'm not BLAMING the god damn hostages. if anyone's to blame, it's the hostage taker, not even the police, the police coulda done worse. 100% of the victims could have died.

please tell me one of you sees where i'm coming from.

[wouwou]

dude, i don't care. a kid probably wouldn't of done anything. but even a middle aged man that "ran to block the bullets" woulda been smart enough to get up and help if someone else was struggling.

trained officer my ass. trained in what way? someone has two hands near the front of a long rifle, has more torque than you have over the rifle unless you're holding the other end the same way. a fuckin C-lai can even help during the struggle, just grab ontop him and start biting, start clawing, fuck anything. the man's power is in that rifle, which coulda been taken away or disabled if someone had enough courage.

and like i said, maybe not at first, but after someone else gets shot, you can be the type that becomes a coward or a martyr, cuz under both options means your death, i'd choose martyr anyday.According to the news, the gunman pointed the gun at the hostages from a distance, and forced them to the back of the bus.

good luck fighting the guy after the 1st guy died.

[ecchiecchi]

According to the news, the gunman pointed the gun at the hostages from a distance, and forced them to the back of the bus.

good luck fighting the guy after the 1st guy died.

Apple News shows them to be sitting in their respective seats.

[Mr.HappySilp]

I agree this is sad, but really think of it from the police and SWAT's perspective.
I hear people saying why don't you just snipe. Do you know how much decision making and red tape you have to go through?

Negotiator to his boss who's analyzing the situation, then to police and multiple commander in chief (SWAT, police, negotiation specialist) AND then you probably have to go through the president of Philippines.

Decisions are made ONLY at the very last moment when negotiation FAILS with a point of no return would there be an order to kill. That takes another good hour until that passes down million of levels until it reaches to the sniper and his "partner".

Then you'll have to do the math and consider the muzzle velocity on the equipment you have, the level of accuracy, the sub-MOA (Minute Of Angle)accuracy, rifle twist ratios and eg// bullets between 40 and 65 grains you have to compensate the tumble after penetrating a target.

We have to keep in mind these are REAL bullets we are talking about, this is not COD MW2. Stop flaming... and just be thankful.

To put this into perspective, imagine you're playing paintball and you tell me if you're really going to be Rambo and just rush in. These are real lives and not where you can insert more coins and continue.

If this happens in chain that guy would get snipe down in 5mins no questions asked.

The SWAT and the police have so many fucking chanes. There were shots form video and pics that he guy was wide open for an sinpe shot.

Even in the beginning when he was talking to those 2 police, the police could easily use a tranquie shot or even later could gas him out.

And about the part where the beat and handcuff the ex police's brother in front of him was just BAD. Why would anyone in their right mind want to hurt his bro in front of him? That would just make him even more mad.

And using hammer and Axes to break the windows and doors. What are we? In the 17th ceuntry? Use something more effective.

[Solo_D33A]

Apple News shows them to be sitting in their respective seats.

in live vid footage, you can see the man that was machine gunned from inside the bus is sitting near the front, thus it's not like their initial report that they've all forced to the back.

And yeah, flight or fight, I'd agree if someone is going to do something about it in the bus I would too when i know the situation is deteriorating to a point he starts to kill off the hostages.

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

^
thank you. fight or flight. there's no where to flee. you fight.

c'mon skinnypupp. if you were on that bus, with your wife and or kids, even if you were 50 years old. i know you wouldn't of just sat there. and what fucking fucked up world this is, even if you have no relatives or friends on the bus, it shouldn't take them to trigger the want to save yourself and everyone else. what a selfish world this is.

[Ferra]

^
thank you. fight or flight. there's no where to flee. you fight.

c'mon skinnypupp. if you were on that bus, with your wife and or kids, even if you were 50 years old. i know you wouldn't of just sat there. and what fucking fucked up world this is, even if you have no relatives or friends on the bus, it shouldn't take them to trigger the want to save yourself and everyone else. what a selfish world this is.
in situation like this....everyone are confused, and no ones want to take the risk and piss of the gunmen more or be responsible for other innocent's death while struggling with the gunmen.
the key is, no one knew whether the gunmen will start killing everyone at that point.


but after a story like this, I am sure if a similar situation happens again, people will flight back.
It is like 911...before 911, people usually sitback and do nothing during a plane hijack, but after 911, I can assure you the entire crews and passengers will fight back if you try to hijack a plane in the US.

[asdfg123hk]

http://orientaldaily.on.cc/cnt/news/20100825/00174_001.html

don't bother translating the entire thing...but they DID try.

the hostages were at the back of the bus...like you said..there's only this narrow aisle on the bus...the gunman stepped back and fired when the hostages tried to rush to him. Killing the people who tried to fight back.

---
the 14yr old girl died trying to block the bullets for her brother.

[vash13]

The ex cop can also mention he had a bomb on him or something. Even if you rush to get his gun, who knows what other weapons he had on him (at that very moment)

[TRDood]

http://orientaldaily.on.cc/cnt/news/20100825/00174_001.html

don't bother translating the entire thing...but they DID try.

the hostages were at the back of the bus...like you said..there's only this narrow aisle on the bus...the gunman stepped back and fired when the hostages tried to rush to him. Killing the people who tried to fight back.

---
the 14yr old girl died trying to block the bullets for her brother.

If that article was true, then it overturns ulic's assumption of them being coward and hiding behind their seats. And what didmsome of us say this will hurt the tourism industry in philippines and have a negative impact? The evidence clearly shows here.

Most people think with their feelings and not with a clear mindset.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[luibei]

its hard to think what one would do in that situation. would you, trying to be a hero, cause even more deaths? wut happens if u fail at subduing the gun men who is trained and then wut? u lose ur life? sure, but he gets mad n turns on all the kids for your failed attempt? your thoughts of martyrdom results in many mroe deaths. who could've forseen the end result? the situation must be hella dire for anyone to do anything. not an easy situation here plus the fact that this gun men was apparently nice at first so people might've been thinking if we just ride this out obediently it might work out. it is a confusing situations with thoughts going through your mind i cannot even imagine. I see your point though but we can only speculate since we don't even have enough facts on the actual events that unfolded but the attention right now shouldnt even be towards the hostages but towards the lack luster performance by people in uniforms that day, people who thought they were cops.

on another note i hope we focus on the issues at hand and leave the racism aside.

those people taking pictures are from another world... makes no sense to me how one can be so classless

[asian_XL]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qondDZxg3U4&feature=search

[vash13]

Holy shit that video was powerful. Is this pretty accurate?

[Okitnam]

WOW!!!! .....this is embarassing......speechless..! they fawked up......! big time...!

[TomBox_N]

Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[scottsman]

Why are peoples reactions to things happening in other countries always so strong compared with then they are in Canada or USA. There have been multiple events such as this to happen in the USA but you don't think twice about going south.

People keep mentioning about corruption in the police force like its a new thing. I am sure in any South East Asian Country the levels of corruption are high. (Philippeans, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, etc.

The fact is that the media over covered this story. I guess the floods in Pakistan are a bit too boring for them.

Even the British guy who killed the US Marine in Phuket is completely blown out of proportion.

Ps. the updated apple daily is pretty intense.

[threezero]

Ulic several of the victims had gun shot wound + stab wounds some of those wounds were fatal. Mrs.Leung, one of the survivor also mention that her husband were kill trying to stop the gunman. So its not like 0 ppl tried to stop the gunmen.

But in reality, i bet those that survive are the ones that play dead and hide instead of being rambo. Not saying that the ones that die were being heros but as according to witness at least one hero die and not only did he no save anybody his whole family got wipe out except for his wife. His fault? probably not, but if he had just pussied out instead maybe things would have ended differently for him

You can no compare this to a 911 situation. they were on a bus on land with the whole world's eyes on them and the promise of "skill" proffesional who were suppose to rescue them.

911, they are in the air with ZERO chance of outside rescue


I know you are thinking i would sacrifice myself to save others. But would you feel the same if you grab the gun and in the mist of the struggle spray bullet everywhere killing everybody and maybe even the gunman. and you are the only one that survive? This is a very enclose area with no room for error. You are confident that you can handle a M16 by holding on to its barrel but how do you know if the gunmen knows karate,taekwondo, wingchun, or even just simple military training to prevent their weapons from being taken control of or taken away?

There is way too many factor, it might sound like a good idea to observer I'm sure you would otherwise if you are the one involve

[vash13]

If an assault on a bus is ordered, this is one way to do it - 10 seconds and it's over: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJojZlNcKow

You can see from this video the first guy climbing the ladder in the front of the bus fell flat on his face.lol

[Mr.HappySilp]

^^ I would pussy out and play dead. I have admit I don't have a hero in me.... well maybe when I have my own fmaily and they are threaten then that's a different story.

[Amuse]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVYCe3WFRYA&feature=related

[Naka San]

S.W.A.T - Sorry We aren't Trained :gun::2finger::gtfo:

R.I.P totally unprofessional

[lgman]

^
thank you. fight or flight. there's no where to flee. you fight.
..... what a selfish world this is.
So true man.
Anyone remember that crazy greyhound killer in Manitoba decapitated this dude? no one wanted to stop him, bus full of cowards right?

[ecchiecchi]

Ulic several of the victims had gun shot wound + stab wounds some of those wounds were fatal. Mrs.Leung, one of the survivor also mention that her husband were kill trying to stop the gunman. So its not like 0 ppl tried to stop the gunmen.

But in reality, i bet those that survive are the ones that play dead and hide instead of being rambo. Not saying that the ones that die were being heros but as according to witness at least one hero die and not only did he no save anybody his whole family got wipe out except for his wife. His fault? probably not, but if he had just pussied out instead maybe things would have ended differently for him

You can no compare this to a 911 situation. they were on a bus on land with the whole world's eyes on them and the promise of "skill" proffesional who were suppose to rescue them.

911, they are in the air with ZERO chance of outside rescue


I know you are thinking i would sacrifice myself to save others. But would you feel the same if you grab the gun and in the mist of the struggle spray bullet everywhere killing everybody and maybe even the gunman. and you are the only one that survive? This is a very enclose area with no room for error. You are confident that you can handle a M16 by holding on to its barrel but how do you know if the gunmen knows karate,taekwondo, wingchun, or even just simple military training to prevent their weapons from being taken control of or taken away?

There is way too many factor, it might sound like a good idea to observer I'm sure you would otherwise if you are the one involve

Wouldn't that just be one way of convincing yourself not to do it?

Another way of thinking would be, "The police are incompetent and I'm probably gonna die anyways. If I do something I might be able to save some people atleast."

What if the whole thing played out differently if someone inside did something? What IFs are pointless in arguments because the opposite argument can be used to negate it.

I think I'd last 2 hours with passive thinking. After that I'd be convinced that help isn't gonna come anytime soon and I have to do something myself. Like Ulic said, once 1 person dies, don't expect to be saved.

The bus driver would've been most effective at trying to wrestle the gun out of the culprit's hands. Sure he has one hand cuffed, but if he grabbed the rifle, no one would be caught if bullets started flying. Even when Mendoza started firing, the bus driver ran away by himself when he could've attacked the guy from behind.

I'm not sure how it really played out, but the husband who died was charging at the hostage-taker when he was already spraying bullets. And from the looks of it, he successfully covered some bullets meant for his wife. So if he pussied out, he'd probably be alive and his wife will probably be the one who's dead. In a situation like that, I'd rather be dead if my cowardice caused the life of my wife. For a lot of you, he may not be a hero for having been unsuccessful at saving more people, but what he did for his wife was heroic enough in my books.

We can say whatever we want, brag how heroic we'll be, criticize what they did wrong- but if we ever become involved in a situation like that, I hope we'll follow what we think is the right thing to do and not succumb to a mountain of excuses powered by our selfishness and cowardice.

Hero or coward, we're only humans. Whatever anyone did in that bus, I hope it was because they only meant well.

But it's not even that- It's just that as humans- we're all to selfish.

Life-threatening situation or not, it's not like we'll bother to lift a finger to help. We all have the mentality that "Oh- someone else will probably do it, so why should I bother." Even if it costs us nothing and happens right infront of us, we'll probably ignore it with the mindset that someone else will take care of it.

[goo3]

It's pretty obvious that wasn't a SWAT team. "They just put helmets on certain people."


The bus driver would've been most effective at trying to wrestle the gun out of the culprit's hands. Sure he has one hand cuffed, but if he grabbed the rifle, no one would be caught if bullets started flying.



You're not thinking this one through. Last I checked the vid, batman wasn't driving the bus.


Even when Mendoza started firing, the bus driver ran away by himself when he could've attacked the guy from behind.


Neither was Chuck Norris.

[JoshuaWong]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs142.ash2/40456_454577914121_515844121_6291814_7569259_n.jpg

Pretty much the Mainlander Chinese people say the Hong Kongers deserved it because they shouldn't travel abroad since China is such a good country. Kinda sad to see its been more tha 10 years since the Mainland and HK/Macau reunited yet when sensitive situation like these happens it shows that there is really nothing to merge the 2 societies together. HK will always be a colony either to the British or to China it seems... Sometimes I think I understand why some people feel Macau/Hong Kong/Taiwan should be one instead of being repatriated back to Mainland China.

[SkinnyPupp]

Whoever that mainlander is, that is some epic trolling, because I have seen this screenshot posted everywhere :lol

[Noir]

We can say whatever we want, brag how heroic we'll be, criticize what they did wrong- but if we ever become involved in a situation like that, I hope we'll follow what we think is the right thing to do and not succumb to a mountain of excuses powered by our selfishness and cowardice.

It's not powered by selfishness but rather everyone's innate instinct to survive. Look at the animal kingdom and even at your most carnivorous of predators. Majority of them would rather flight > fight when encountered by a predator more dangerous than they are. Think of bears, snakes, leopards, et al. Hell, there are even some animals that pretend to be dead as a survival tool.

I can understand Ulic's bravado as the guy has an army background but to expect that from your average joe because it is what you expect of yourself..... Get real dude.

In fact, if we were in a hostage situation together and I see you agitating the hostage taker with your aspirations of heroics, I'd tell you to STFU and sit down. Ask any police squad or hostage negotiator what kind of hostage they prefer. If the risks of casualties are greater with compliant hostages or out-of-control hostages.

You have to remember, it may play out as heroics in your mind, but ultimately, you're not just gambling with your life, but you've also decided to gamble others.


Too much hollywood movies for you my friend.

[palepilsenpin0y]

I'm Half Chinese and Half Filipino. Was born and raised in the Philz all my life (before quite recently moving here) so I will do anything to back-up my country.

However, what I witnessed from this whole thing was really really embarrassing on my country's part, and was overall a very tragic event. There are no excuses for all the mistakes and short-comings our law enforcement teams have done.

Watched pretty much the whole thing live via CNN stream and it really made me cringe at the fact that there were so many things that the Philippine S.W.A.T. team or whoever, could have done to prevent the number casualties..

Here's a BBC article titled "Ten things the Philippines bus siege police got wrong" ---> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11069616

The Philippines is not a perfect place. In fact, it's pretty safe to say that it's very far from it. I'm just afraid of the backlash my country will receive (or is currently receiving) as a result of this. I can't blame Hong Kong for getting pissed at the Philippines, but honestly, one man and very poor hostage-situation handling from their part shouldn't generalize how my country is.

Despite the fact that I've only read the first and last two pages of this thread, from what I have gathered, I appreciate how most, if not, all of you have treated this manner in a mature way. Without all that "teh philipenz suckz a$s" bullshit.

And for that, you guys have my sincere thanks.


R.I.P. to everyone who fell victim that day..

[!SG]

if you have lived there as you said you have, then you would know there is alot of hatred in the community. not everyone, but there are some true blood filipino's that dispise chinese, and even fil chi's (filipino chinese). like, i get it. i think it was the same in indonesia when the locals went crazy and started rioting against all the foreign asian investors, business owners, saying they are taking away jobs and exploiting the country.

I really wasnt aware of this hostage incident on monday. my co workers were talking about it, and one of my co workers blurted something out. he's true blood filipino, i think he's only been here for just over 5 years or so. but hearing from his reaction and voice, i sensed he sided with the gunman. he even blurted that possibly some of the hostages deserved it. i really had no clue what he was talking about til monday night when i saw this on the news. sigh.

RIP to those that died.

is it me, or are the police/officials/ppl in power, overseas in asian countries more concerned with what ppl see and what they can censor, rather than doing the right thing?



I'm Half Chinese and Half Filipino. Was born and raised in the Philz all my life (before quite recently moving here) so I will do anything to back-up my country.

However, what I witnessed from this whole thing was really really embarrassing on my country's part, and was overall a very tragic event. There are no excuses for all the mistakes and short-comings our law enforcement teams have done.

Watched pretty much the whole thing live via CNN stream and it really made me cringe at the fact that there were so many things that the Philippine S.W.A.T. team or whoever, could have done to prevent the number casualties..

Here's a BBC article titled "Ten things the Philippines bus siege police got wrong" ---> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11069616

The Philippines is not a perfect place. In fact, it's pretty safe to say that it's very far from it. I'm just afraid of the backlash my country will receive (or is currently receiving) as a result of this. I can't blame Hong Kong for getting pissed at the Philippines, but honestly, one man and very poor hostage-situation handling from their part shouldn't generalize how my country is.

Despite the fact that I've only read the first and last two pages of this thread, from what I have gathered, I appreciate how most, if not, all of you have treated this manner in a mature way. Without all that "teh philipenz suckz a$s" bullshit.

And for that, you guys have my sincere thanks.


R.I.P. to everyone who fell victim that day..

[7seven]

What a colossal fuck up by the Philippine's police and so called SWAT team :facepalm:

I got a call last night from one of my clients who had a vacation to Boracay booked in a couple weeks with her family and the original plan was for me to provide them with 2 private security personnel for the duration of their stay, last night she request a team of 5 because of the whole bus hostage situation. This morning I get a call again saying they're just going to cancel their vacation to Boracay and go to Belize haha.

[TRDood]

What a colossal fuck up by the Philippine's police and so called SWAT team :facepalm:

I got a call last night from one of my clients who had a vacation to Boracay booked in a couple weeks with her family and the original plan was for me to provide them with 2 private security personnel for the duration of their stay, last night she request a team of 5 because of the whole bus hostage situation. This morning I get a call again saying they're just going to cancel their vacation to Boracay and go to Belize haha.

Cool, does that mean you always get to travel with your clients all over the world? And probably your team of five is more effective than the whole philippines SWAT and police force.

Especially with this picture...
http://www.revscene.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1532&stc=1&d=1282654889

[hotjoint]

What a colossal fuck up by the Philippine's police and so called SWAT team :facepalm:

I got a call last night from one of my clients who had a vacation to Boracay booked in a couple weeks with her family and the original plan was for me to provide them with 2 private security personnel for the duration of their stay, last night she request a team of 5 because of the whole bus hostage situation. This morning I get a call again saying they're just going to cancel their vacation to Boracay and go to Belize haha.

:lol thats hilarious

[7seven]

Cool, does that mean you always get to travel with your clients all over the world? And probably your team of five is more effective than the whole philippines SWAT and police force.

Especially with this picture...
http://www.revscene.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1532&stc=1&d=1282654889

Yup, when contracted for events and vacations, we travel with the client.

haha, I'll tell you this much, we're far better equipped than the Philippines police department.

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

pretty insane on what happened, RIP to those innocent that got killed in this rampage

[SkinnyPupp]

Think they gave the press too much access during the hostage incident?

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=465664440627

Here they are opening the caskets of the victims to take pictures of the dead bodies (watch at 0:20)

Fucking disgusting.

[Gumby]

Yup, when contracted for events and vacations, we travel with the client.

haha, I'll tell you this much, we're far better equipped than the Philippines police department.
:bowdown:

[jmvdesign]

Think they gave the press too much access during the hostage incident?

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=465664440627

Here they are opening the caskets of the victims to take pictures of the dead bodies (watch at 0:20)

Fucking disgusting.

This is pretty common there. There has always been a lack of censorship in the Philippine media. I remember as a kid I'd see the news agencies showing full crime scenes with dead bodies uncovered being televised on afternoon news.

[neggo]

I really wasnt aware of this hostage incident on monday. my co workers were talking about it, and one of my co workers blurted something out. he's true blood filipino, i think he's only been here for just over 5 years or so. but hearing from his reaction and voice, i sensed he sided with the gunman. he even blurted that possibly some of the hostages deserved it. i really had no clue what he was talking about til monday night when i saw this on the news. sigh.


Quite surprising that a Filipino person feels that way. Everyone Filipino I've talked to has admitted to blaming the Philippine government, police, and the hostage taker. All of them were pissed. Your co-worker is a retard if he really thinks that way.

[neggo]

This is pretty common there. There has always been a lack of censorship in the Philippine media. I remember as a kid I'd see the news agencies showing full crime scenes with dead bodies uncovered being televised on afternoon news.

I remember seeing a broadcast of a guy running towards the police, swinging his machete with him ending up being shot dead by like 10 police.

News there is completely different from how it is here.

[CP.AR]

Don't hate the people, just the gov't /PD

[iamon]

As a Filipino i am embarrassed of what happened and how it transpired. The lack of censorship is probably a result of years of media censorship under the Marcos regime and martial law being introduced. In recent years there has been more and more controversy about censorship in the media because of the past president's dealings and covering it up in the media. The new president Benigno Aquino is the son of Ninoy Aquino who faught for de-censorship of the media and was killed by Marcos for trying to allow the people to know what was going on. The new president has called for more transparency in the media to build confidence in the filipino people that the government has nothing to hide from them. If the president did call for a media blackout it would repeat what Marcos had done years before and thus turning his back against the filipino people who voted him in. This problem also ties in with the repetitive corruption from president to president which has filled the pockets of their closest allies but has also taken away from the funding for public servants such as police and military personnel. This is probably why as many of you have noted that their tactics were questionable and looked like they were unable to handle the situation correctly. Training the correct personnel takes money and that money hasn't been going to the right people for years. My uncle was a cop in the Philippines and his wage wasn't enough to support his family.

[Gt-R R34]

if you have lived there as you said you have, then you would know there is alot of hatred in the community. not everyone, but there are some true blood filipino's that dispise chinese, and even fil chi's (filipino chinese). like, i get it. i think it was the same in indonesia when the locals went crazy and started rioting against all the foreign asian investors, business owners, saying they are taking away jobs and exploiting the country.

I really wasnt aware of this hostage incident on monday. my co workers were talking about it, and one of my co workers blurted something out. he's true blood filipino, i think he's only been here for just over 5 years or so. but hearing from his reaction and voice, i sensed he sided with the gunman. he even blurted that possibly some of the hostages deserved it. i really had no clue what he was talking about til monday night when i saw this on the news. sigh.

RIP to those that died.

is it me, or are the police/officials/ppl in power, overseas in asian countries more concerned with what ppl see and what they can censor, rather than doing the right thing?

Yup, I known true blood flips that have the same feeling towards chinese, but those are usually in the 40s+ or just recently immigrated. The ones that have been here for a long time or born and raised, don't have that feeling towards us as others

[hk20000]

As a Filipino i am embarrassed of what happened and how it transpired. The lack of censorship is probably a result of years of media censorship under the Marcos regime and martial law being introduced. In recent years there has been more and more controversy about censorship in the media because of the past president's dealings and covering it up in the media. The new president Benigno Aquino is the son of Ninoy Aquino who faught for de-censorship of the media and was killed by Marcos for trying to allow the people to know what was going on. The new president has called for more transparency in the media to build confidence in the filipino people that the government has nothing to hide from them....blah blah blah
Media blackout to politics is not in anyway related to tactical media blackout in an attempt to save hostages. :bullshit:

[bcedhk]

the president aquino fucker should just get shot too.

smiling while doing an interview abou the incident and smiling when arriving at the scene? wtf.. and his lame excuse was that he smiles when he is fustrated..

[ecchiecchi]

It's not powered by selfishness but rather everyone's innate instinct to survive. Look at the animal kingdom and even at your most carnivorous of predators. Majority of them would rather flight > fight when encountered by a predator more dangerous than they are. Think of bears, snakes, leopards, et al. Hell, there are even some animals that pretend to be dead as a survival tool.

I can understand Ulic's bravado as the guy has an army background but to expect that from your average joe because it is what you expect of yourself..... Get real dude.

In fact, if we were in a hostage situation together and I see you agitating the hostage taker with your aspirations of heroics, I'd tell you to STFU and sit down. Ask any police squad or hostage negotiator what kind of hostage they prefer. If the risks of casualties are greater with compliant hostages or out-of-control hostages.

You have to remember, it may play out as heroics in your mind, but ultimately, you're not just gambling with your life, but you've also decided to gamble others.


Too much hollywood movies for you my friend.

Hollywood? Not so much- It's just the way that I think. If I was face to face with a lion and had no way of escaping, I'd fight instead of run away. Did anyone in the bus had a means to escape? Not really- Wait... Actually, when the guy was releasing hostages, he wasn't even holding his gun. I would've taken that chance.

Let me just say this- My selfishness inclines me to fight back. Only doing so after thoroughly thinking about what to do. You have to be an idiot to just jump without a plan.

It's not about being a hero or not. I honestly don't give a flying fuck. It's more about doing something to ensure your survival and helping ensure everyone else's.

If you were face to face with a wild animal that's about to maul your family to death and it gave an opening for you to disable it, you're telling me you'd just sit there and play dead?

And also, knowing from experience how incompetent the police force in Philippines are, I'd probably come to the conclusion 30 mins in that I'd have a better chance of surviving if I did something.

[iamon]

Media blackout to politics is not in anyway related to tactical media blackout in an attempt to save hostages. :bullshit:

Its just an idea i threw out that may have been a reason, I agree with you that it would have been a good idea to blackout the media. Theres alot of things that should have been done differently and we don't really know what would have happened if one thing was done or another. It is f-d up.

[ecchiecchi]

Its just an idea i threw out that may have been a reason, I agree with you that it would have been a good idea to blackout the media. Theres alot of things that should have been done differently and we don't really know what would have happened if one thing was done or another. It is f-d up.

Couldn't they just have put up a signal jammer around the bus? I can easily buy signal jammers off the internet so I assume the police force would have easier access to such things.

[iamon]

who knows if the cops even thought of that. what I am afraid of is retaliation. There is a lot of anger over this and it may be directed to filipino's just because they are filipino. I am filipino and I am part chinese (my mom's half). There are many filipinos who work in HK and now there is talk that there may be retaliation. Does this incident change your feelings or attitude towards filipino's in general?

[will068]

Don't hate the people, just the gov't /PD

This.

To the HK Nationals out there. If you would voice your anger/resentment, please don't place it against the Filipino citizens. If you ask around your Filipino friends, they are probably even more angry than you are and surely are much more embarrassed as well.

Voice it out against the Philippine Government. Have your HK officials chastise the Government to the max and have them accountable for this. You know why ? Because the Philippine Government will use the local Police as a scape goat of a shitty job and probably just weep this under the rug in a year. Yeah it was shitty job, but when you don't pay the Police enough, ration their supplies, and go cheap on their training, this is what you get. You reap what you sow.

The police gets paid $300 USD a month. They are only provided a small supply of bullets per month. If they finish that, the police have to shoulder their own cost for extra bullets. That is around $65 a box. That's 20% of their salary right there. Ridiculous isn't it ?

And it's bullshit that the Government will claim that there isn't enough funding. If the public officials stop stealing government funds, there should be enough to boost the WHOLE public sector of jobs in every industry.

Keep in mind the last 2 presidents alone plundered more than $300 million USD. That's just the Presidents. The other officials in other levels of government do the same thing. If you voice out against them, they will just hire the underpaid cops/soldiers to shut you up.

[will068]

if you have lived there as you said you have, then you would know there is alot of hatred in the community. not everyone, but there are some true blood filipino's that dispise chinese, and even fil chi's (filipino chinese). like, i get it. i think it was the same in indonesia when the locals went crazy and started rioting against all the foreign asian investors, business owners, saying they are taking away jobs and exploiting the country.

I really wasnt aware of this hostage incident on monday. my co workers were talking about it, and one of my co workers blurted something out. he's true blood filipino, i think he's only been here for just over 5 years or so. but hearing from his reaction and voice, i sensed he sided with the gunman. he even blurted that possibly some of the hostages deserved it. i really had no clue what he was talking about til monday night when i saw this on the news. sigh.

RIP to those that died.

is it me, or are the police/officials/ppl in power, overseas in asian countries more concerned with what ppl see and what they can censor, rather than doing the right thing?

That's what I hate in the Philippines. Being Filipino is not a race, it's a nationality. With the Philippines being a colonized territory for over 400 years, it does not have a concrete racial identity. It's like saying - being Canadian. Hell, the current president has Chinese Blood in him if you want to be that technical. The National Hero is Chinese+White (Spanish). The current Ms. Philippines for Miss Universe 2010 is half East Indian. And yes, all these folks classify themselves as Filipinos regardless of what they look like.

True blood Filipinos ? Who classifies themselves as that. Your coworker is indeed an idiot for saying that.

The only True Blood Filipinos are the aboriginals that are actually of the Malay Race and are treated like shit by everyone in the Philippines and are too poor to get out of their rural areas they reside at ( consistent with the the folks you see in the Indonesian archipelago, Malaysian Peninsula, and perhaps the aboriginals in Australia ).

[!SG]

yeah i know. i have friends of all races and backgrounds. its the recent immigrated ones that seem to have the most prejudice judgements.

Yup, I known true blood flips that have the same feeling towards chinese, but those are usually in the 40s+ or just recently immigrated. The ones that have been here for a long time or born and raised, don't have that feeling towards us as others

[iamon]

even jackie chan is asking not to hate on people:

In his verified Twitter account http://twitter.com/EyeOfJackieChan , the actor said, “HK is a nation built by a lot of different people...don’t worry! We do not hate!”

“This kind of things always happens around the world. It happens to HK’s people. The whole HK is talking about it. It’s really sad.”

“If they killed the guy sooner, they will say why not negotiate first? If they negotiate first, they ask why not kill the guy sooner? So sad.”

[dinamix]

WW3? HK vs. Philippines..do it!

[Ludepower]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnRhcyEZb20&feature=related

Tottaly different situation but this is how Toronto's SWAT team handles things.

I think we can all agree. The situation was a complete failure by an incompetent police force and government.

[SlySi]

It's not powered by selfishness but rather everyone's innate instinct to survive. Look at the animal kingdom and even at your most carnivorous of predators. Majority of them would rather flight > fight when encountered by a predator more dangerous than they are. Think of bears, snakes, leopards, et al. Hell, there are even some animals that pretend to be dead as a survival tool.

I can understand Ulic's bravado as the guy has an army background but to expect that from your average joe because it is what you expect of yourself..... Get real dude.

In fact, if we were in a hostage situation together and I see you agitating the hostage taker with your aspirations of heroics, I'd tell you to STFU and sit down. Ask any police squad or hostage negotiator what kind of hostage they prefer. If the risks of casualties are greater with compliant hostages or out-of-control hostages.

You have to remember, it may play out as heroics in your mind, but ultimately, you're not just gambling with your life, but you've also decided to gamble others.


Too much hollywood movies for you my friend.


Very well said Noir.
The right thing to do is not agitate.

Although now, knowing what happened with this type of incident.
Fuck it.
My first instinct will be to jump the gunmen when the opportunity arises.


Im very deeply sadenned with the turn of events.
The outcome was simply unnecessary. My condolences.
We live in a fkn sick world.

[Noir]

Hollywood? Not so much- It's just the way that I think. If I was face to face with a lion and had no way of escaping, I'd fight instead of run away. Did anyone in the bus had a means to escape? Not really- Wait... Actually, when the guy was releasing hostages, he wasn't even holding his gun. I would've taken that chance.

You may only see one gun but how will you be certain he has no side-arm. Again, it's a gamble. If you lose and the guy regains control, he will be forced to take a more aggressive stance towards his hostage-takers to keep you all under control.

A more aggressive stance thanks to you. This goes back to not just gambling on your life, but you deciding to gamble on everyone else's.

Secondly, altercations with hostage takers is typically inadvisable by HRTs because when you are in close proximity to the hostage taker, it renders's HRT's firearms useless. They're not going to help you (and the other hostages) when they have no shot because of your little wrestling match.


Let me just say this- My selfishness inclines me to fight back. Only doing so after thoroughly thinking about what to do. You have to be an idiot to just jump without a plan.

The plan is to stay put and let a tactical team with tactical weapons and trained hostage negotiator do their jobs. Luckily for us, we live in a 1st world country with 1st world resources. Again, if we were caught in the same situation, I'd tell you to STFU and sit down lest you gamble the life of mine and my families'

Again mind you, just because a hostage situation is dragging out for hours on end to a day doesn't mean that your situation is deteriorating. That is a standard tactic for HRT's to fatigue out a hostage-taking-team. Also, as a hostage-taking-team fatigues, it gives HRT's something to barter with ie. supplies in food and water.

Yes, in this specific case the Philippine SWAT pales in comparison to the SWAT we see here in Canada and the US. But the rule of thumb still remains the same: A compliant hostage is still better than a wildcard hostage for a peaceful resolution - the primary resolution that all HRT's work towards to and what the hostages prefer. You'd be kidding if you think that was not anyone's primary goal.


It's not about being a hero or not. I honestly don't give a flying fuck. It's more about doing something to ensure your survival and helping ensure everyone else's.

You may not give a flying fuck, but everyone else does. Again, I've already shown why your acts of bravado can do more harm than help.

It's like gambling in a casino. You're deluded with the grandeur of winning big but fail to realize that although there is a chance to come out on top, generally speaking the odds are on the favour of the house - and I reiterate, you're not just gambling your own life, but with everyone else's as well.


If you were face to face with a wild animal that's about to maul your family to death and it gave an opening for you to disable it, you're telling me you'd just sit there and play dead?


Funny, here in Canada that's exactly what they tell me to do come face to face with a bear.


And also, knowing from experience how incompetent the police force in Philippines are, I'd probably come to the conclusion 30 mins in that I'd have a better chance of surviving if I did something.

Good luck with that. Again, I'm hoping I don't find myself in the same plane, bus, or cruise ship when that happens.

[BNR32_Coupe]

Noir don't bother with these guys. They're blinded by a combination of hollywood style thrills, testosterone, ignorance, and action games. They can't comprehend what the word "Risk" means to themselves and others.

I'm with you on this one, I sure as hell hope I'm not on the same boat/plane/train/bus as these wannabe rambo heroes. But if I am I just hope the hostage taker is reasonable enough to use that guy as an example and spare the rest of us.

[ecchiecchi]

Let's change the situation then- If the risk was lower, would you do it? What if the man was holding a bolo instead? You still wouldn't fight back even if he was already hacking at someone?

[CP.AR]

This.

To the HK Nationals out there. If you would voice your anger/resentment, please don't place it against the Filipino citizens. If you ask around your Filipino friends, they are probably even more angry than you are and surely are much more embarrassed as well.

Voice it out against the Philippine Government. Have your HK officials chastise the Government to the max and have them accountable for this. You know why ? Because the Philippine Government will use the local Police as a scape goat of a shitty job and probably just weep this under the rug in a year. Yeah it was shitty job, but when you don't pay the Police enough, ration their supplies, and go cheap on their training, this is what you get. You reap what you sow.

The police gets paid $300 USD a month. They are only provided a small supply of bullets per month. If they finish that, the police have to shoulder their own cost for extra bullets. That is around $65 a box. That's 20% of their salary right there. Ridiculous isn't it ?

And it's bullshit that the Government will claim that there isn't enough funding. If the public officials stop stealing government funds, there should be enough to boost the WHOLE public sector of jobs in every industry.

Keep in mind the last 2 presidents alone plundered more than $300 million USD. That's just the Presidents. The other officials in other levels of government do the same thing. If you voice out against them, they will just hire the underpaid cops/soldiers to shut you up.

This is why I made the "don't hate the people..." post
I was raised by a filipino maid for quite a large chunk of my childhood. She became my second mother (to this day I am still in contact with her, treating her LIKE my mother). Through her, I learnt to respect people, regardless of what they do, what they wear, or what they believe in. I carry that mindset out everyday. Sure I'll make the racist black joke here and there - but I make sure EVERYONE around me knows 100% that it means no harm, and is only a joke. What one person does is not representative of their country - what two people of the same origin does, does not represent their people.

I would like to add to the quoted text on how I feel
With this event, I really understand the horror and sorrow from both sides (Filipino and HK/Chinese). On one end, your government screwed up royally, causing the unnecessary deaths of innocent tourists, and putting your country's image at stake. There is nothing you can really do about it, being that the corrupt government siphons tax dollars such that various social services like the police police force gets so little training. It's easy to become enraged at the government, and those either working in or have relatives/friends working in Hong Kong or China feel threatened due to the sudden rise in rage against the filipino population.

On the other hand, those in Hong Kong feel that what the police force did was inadequate. Now don't get me wrong, it was completely inadequate and unacceptable on so many levels, but keep in mind - this is at the fault of the government itself, not the people. They all paid their taxes and went their merry way, but the corrupt government and their mad money siphoning means that only a minute portion of funding actually goesto the police. It's easy to blur the line between a country and it's people - sure there are those who took inappropiate pictures in front of the torn tourbus, but who is there to stop them? If a similar incident were to occur say in... Canada, a small group may similarly be tempted to take such photos, but thanks to the fact that police funding actually goes to the police, barriers are set up, and the crime scene is quickly covered up and dealt with. In short - enforcement and training makes the difference.

So whether or not you take posts on Revscene seriously or not, I urge all of us to think about my post. It's a traumatic experience for everyone, and the last thing on ANYBODY's mind is an all out hate war between the two peoples. It's not like the filipino people wantedthis to happen, hell they are probably even more concerned than most of us at this moment in time - as it really exposes how poorly equipped and poorly trained the police force really is.

Once again - hate on the government, accuse them all you want, but leave the people alone.

[hk20000]

you don't have to bold the stuff.....HK people as a whole aren't emotional or irrational by any stretch or mile. HK people tend to think about the consequences before they do anything.....which is probably more than what the Sorry We Aren't Trained team is capable of.

As far as I can tell we aren't going to do anything to the philipinos.....just swear a lot online. and probably a peaceful protest.

[TRDood]

This is why I made the "don't hate the people..." post
I was raised by a filipino maid for quite a large chunk of my childhood

...

Once again - hate on the government, accuse them all you want, but leave the people alone.

I agree with 80% of the things you said, but having law enforcement officers taking pictures of the crime scene like a local attraction is NOT acceptable.

To me, the government is made up of its people. So if the government blows donkey balls, not ALL filipinos are blame-free.

[speedking]

he went crazy right after he found out that they arrested his brother (his brother is a cop and his son is a cop as well). he wasn't asking his job back like nothing happened. he was asking to re-open his case and they didn't give him! my dad was in military and police for 25 years in philippines (retired now) and if this thing happened to him i bet he would do the same thing (not like he will hostage tourist but probably kill who ever fire him). i think the ombudsman use too much of his power to fire the guy. the guy got 10 or more awards for the last 22 years of service and you think he will just let someone take away everything from him just like that. the ombudsman should've seen this coming! i can understand if the guy was new on the job, but this guy is been in military/police for 22 years+10 or more awards. being that long on the service, i bet his been in so many gunfire situation. meaning, killing and firing a gun is like regular to him.

[iEatClams]

This is why I made the "don't hate the people..." post
]

agree to certain extend. Another major thing is that a lot of times the police are even more corrupt than the government. In many 3rd world countries, Police officers are worst than criminals. They take bribes and collect "protection tax". Many of the kidnappings are done by police officers. And if anyone wants to fight back. It's usually a police officers word against yours, so it becomes almost impossible to whistleblow. The few honest cops are also afraid to whistleblow due to repurcussions.

Even if the government were to triple the pay of every police officer, the bribes and corruption within the force would still occur due to the culture there (although bribes and extortions might decrease slightly).

All this said, there probably won't be any significant changes in the government/police force anytime soon, which is quite sad.
RIP to the victims.

[Noir]

Let's change the situation then- If the risk was lower, would you do it? What if the man was holding a bolo instead? You still wouldn't fight back even if he was already hacking at someone?

There's a difference between "already hacking someone" vs. "someone threatening to hack you." Ask any cop. What do you do when a robber threatens you at knife point for your wallet. And when I mean threaten I mean nobody has crossed the threshold of physical harm yet.

How many cops do you think would advise your typical male, female, child to fight for your wallet? How many would advise to just comply?


To tie that into the current discussion:

What you want is someone to Rambo it up and go toe-to-toe with a hostage taker. That's 2 people with one winner (either you or the hostage taker). You're gambling the lives of hostages on a 50/50 chance?

But wait.... It's not 50/50.

He's armed and you're not. It's more like 20/80 for the hostage taker. Think about that, you're going to gamble everyone else's life on 20%. There's a reason why someone else mentioned they don't want to find themselves in a bus/train/plane with you when shit goes down.



Secondly, you're Monday night quarterbacking. Not all hostage situations are 1 man shows. Tell me, what do you expect from hostages when it's a multi-person crew?

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

It's not powered by selfishness but rather everyone's innate instinct to survive. Look at the animal kingdom and even at your most carnivorous of predators. Majority of them would rather flight > fight when encountered by a predator more dangerous than they are. Think of bears, snakes, leopards, et al. Hell, there are even some animals that pretend to be dead as a survival tool.

I can understand Ulic's bravado as the guy has an army background but to expect that from your average joe because it is what you expect of yourself..... Get real dude.

In fact, if we were in a hostage situation together and I see you agitating the hostage taker with your aspirations of heroics, I'd tell you to STFU and sit down. Ask any police squad or hostage negotiator what kind of hostage they prefer. If the risks of casualties are greater with compliant hostages or out-of-control hostages.

You have to remember, it may play out as heroics in your mind, but ultimately, you're not just gambling with your life, but you've also decided to gamble others.


Too much hollywood movies for you my friend.


dude. i would run if i could run, but you cannot run. you're cornered, in a bus, or whatever. you CANNOT run.

my army experience has nothing to do with this, it's just reservist training. so what, i know how to handle an assault rifle and dig trenches, and ...?

they only really taught me 3 things, take initiative, be aggressive, and don't show any mercy.

those are 3 principals any fucking human being should have. not to sit there and be fucking idle and "let things play out" in such a situation. we're not fucking animals. we have brains that are capable of cognitive reasoning... we're not dogs.

the more I read this thread, the more i understand why some countries still instill military conscription. it takes a buncha idle slackass civilians, like most of you, into initiative taking men. i bet no one on that bus ever got in a fight in their life, or put in a situation where they have to think quickly and save their asses.

I'm just as average as you are. hell i bet some country boy is better at handling any firearm and better at everything to do with survival than i am.

the only difference is our minds.

no man, too many hollywood movies for YOU. people don't just sit idle and get saved. only if you're extremely lucky.

we have a service for everything now, locksmith to unlock your door, mechanic to fix your shit, and people to save your life? give me a break.

yes, gambling others lives is part of the game. that was always part of the equation.
wars are won by people on the field that make split second decisions that put the lives of people around them in danger. wars or also lost that way.
and you know who the leaders are? the people that make the decisions and act. everyone else is just a follower, or waiting to die.

you make a decision, fast, and you do it. and you don't turn back. that's the fastest and best way to survive.

this scenario is no different than if you were standing on a busy intersection and you saw someone get fucking hit by a car or crushed or whatever.

99% of you would sit there with your jaw dropped, or crying or whatever else. only 1% of you guys would actually snap out of it, shit kick the crying lady next to you and tell her to call 911, as you run down and try to help out.

it's the exact same thing. so now i ask you, are you the type that'll sit back and just be awe struck, or make a split second decision and take action? or do you need someone to take action for you?


all i had to know was this, there's many of us, in a small place, and 1 of him. he has one assault rifle, maybe some hidden weapons, and maybe a few magazines. who knows. it's an easy decision. 1-2+ people can take him down. i KNOW i can make him point that thing somewhere else as long as i get my hands on the barrel, luckily for me i know how to release the magazine. ok so at this point, it took me like fuckin half a second to analyze that. if i had 2+ hours or whatever, dude, i could easily think of all the other possibilities. ok he might have a bomb, he might have another hand gun.

THOSE ARE RISKS IM WILLING TO TAKE. so what if he has a knife? and another hand gun? he's gotta let one hand go to get the other. then i have twice as much control over the rifle. he starts swinging with his knife? go ahead, im not going to fucking let go.

everyone wears a belt. that can be used as a weapon. fuck. you know how quickly you can get a belt around someones neck and just yank and run down the aisle. if you're lucky you'll crush his trachea that way. there's so many possible things that COULD work. some better than others. but all u need is TWO people willing to risk their lives.

it's so easy to decide dude. SO easy.

1 guy shot already, possibility of you getting shot: high.
possbility of others getting killed: high.

so on one hand you have this: 2 people can risk their lives and save everyone, and maybe potentially get everyone killed (and you remember the "swat" are outside and might burst in to help, that's another possibility).

or on the other hand you can sit there and be slack and idle and watch another person get shot, and slowly run out of options and hope the swat will save you, when ONE person has already fucking been killed. ONE person is ONE too many. after ONE person, he has no reason to STOP.

don't tell me you've never been in a last stand, all in glory situation. you fucked up. there's no way out, you already fucked up, just fuck it all and fuck up even more at least you stood for something right? everyone's been in that situation. stubborn as hell, you fucked up, FUCK IT, just fuck it all. i know i have.

if i was the hostage taker, and i killed one person. u know what, im gonna kill them all. it makes no difference. especially with rage and anger filling up. the only thing that matters is pain and suffering that i can inflict. that's exactly how he felt. i know it, you know it.

it doesn't take a genius to figure that one out.


i'll tell you another scenario. imagine this was the exact same thing. except instead of being on a bus full of slack idle hongers. it's a bus full of texan americans. i fucking BET YOU my LIFE, that they woulda taken the hostagetaker down. maybe they woulda lost 1-2 hostages in the process. MAYBE, but that's worth it.

aggressiveness, initiative > slack and idle. always.

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

There's a difference between "already hacking someone" vs. "someone threatening to hack you." Ask any cop. What do you do when a robber threatens you at knife point for your wallet. And when I mean threaten I mean nobody has crossed the threshold of physical harm yet.

How many cops do you think would advise your typical male, female, child to fight for your wallet? How many would advise to just comply?


To tie that into the current discussion:

What you want is someone to Rambo it up and go toe-to-toe with a hostage taker. That's 2 people with one winner (either you or the hostage taker). You're gambling the lives of hostages on a 50/50 chance?

But wait.... It's not 50/50.

He's armed and you're not. It's more like 20/80 for the hostage taker. Think about that, you're going to gamble everyone else's life on 20%. There's a reason why someone else mentioned they don't want to find themselves in a bus/train/plane with you when shit goes down.



Secondly, you're Monday night quarterbacking. Not all hostage situations are 1 man shows. Tell me, what do you expect from hostages when it's a multi-person crew?

yeah you give up your wallet. a wallet isnt your life. you can buy another wallet. you cant buy another life.
like i said, someone's been shot already. killed. without any damn good reason.

so you should be asking, if there are a buncha you lined up, and the bad guy asks a guy for his wallet, the guy gives the wallet and then he gets shot anyway, when its your turn, are you just gonna hand over your wallet? FUCK NO. throw it in his god damn face and im gonna try to kick his balls or anything before i get shot.

it's not 20%. you have the element of surprise. the last thing he expects is a hostage to jump him.
that ambush, that element of surprise gives you a huge advantage for a very short window of opportunity. you know even if he were to walk past you and u grabbed his face and just gouged your fingers into his eyes, you've already almost won.

we're talking about THAT situation now ok. if there were 2-3 of them on that bus holding hostages, i wouldnt of done shit. cuz that's a 0% chance to win, unless somehow every hostage jumped them at the same time which wouldn't happen unless they could some how communicate.
unless you are extremely super lucky and somehow grab one weapon and mow everyone else down. but that's not realistic.

there's so many things u could do. another idea is, how many of you have lighters? just set something in the bus on fire.

yes im sorry that is very selfish, he could go berzerk and kill you all, you could end up killing someone else, but you know what, he aint gonna stay on the fucking burning bus. these are just all ideas im pulling out of my ass while i sit here eating cereal, listening to music. im not even trying.

another thing is, what are you gonna do? if im there and i do it, you're not gonna tell me to sit down when im already ontop of the gunman struggling. are you really gonna sit there?
im asking you to answer this ONE question. if you are in a hostage situation like this one. and someone took initiative, and they're struggling, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?
he's already made the decision for you slack idle ass. you have no choice. well you do, you can sit there and CONTINUE to be idle, or help out. WHAT are you going to do?

my point is, everything involves the risk of others' lives. and whoever takes initiative, controls their lives. if no one takes initiative, you might as well pray to god or jesus or allah or whatever, cuz all that's gonna get you is a one way ticket to heaven.

[SkinnyPupp]

If only Ulic had been on that bus...

[Not really racist!]

^ I wonder how much differently it woulda played out

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

I might have died. I might have saved them. maybe 9 people would have died instead of 8.
or maybe 7 instead.

my point is, it doesn't matter.

im just trying to say, you shouldn't be slack and idle. anyone of your lives should be expendable for the sake of wanting to save yourself and others. you shouldn't have to think too hard about it. it's only your physical body anyways, if you're religious, why would you even be scared? right?

yeah maybe you're right. if only i had been on that bus. I might of been that guy handcuffed and shot first. he killed the most serious threat first. probably the young man that woulda done something.

that young man could have been any of you. I sure as hell wouldn't of cooperated.

life sucks, and then you die. what are you going to do about it.

[rslater]

Part of the problem like you said is that no one knows how its going to play out. You can be sitting in that situation thinking shit I'm going to tackle him and hopefully he'll go down and maybe he'll only get a shot off an injure someone or kill just one guy. But fuck i'm also thinking that every 10 seconds from now the swat is coming onto the bus and their going to kill the guy and everyone's going to be safe. The problem with calling everyone here a pussy for wanting to wait out the situation is because god forbid I took initiative and got someone killed, and it turns out the the swat team had everything under control. Enjoy playing that situation out in your head over and over again before your fucking brain fry's thinking how you killed someone trying to be a man.

[will068]

I agree with 80% of the things you said, but having law enforcement officers taking pictures of the crime scene like a local attraction is NOT acceptable.

To me, the government is made up of its people. So if the government blows donkey balls, not ALL filipinos are blame-free.


Of course not, no one knows that more than the Filipinos in the Philippines. Hell even in this thread, you see people saying they are embarrassed for what their country/government has done. Like you said, it's fucked up with the police officers posing in the pictures, to the nursing students who were doing the same actions while the President of the Philippines acting/talking opposite of what you would expect a head of state should act/talk in a national press conference. He was suppose to be the "Obama" for the Filipinos when he was recently elected this year. Sadly, he acted like G.W. Bush.

[mb_]

Didn't read the whole thread, too much to read but here's a bit of what I'm thinking right now..


As a proud Filipino, I was disgusted and felt embarrassed on how the police force reacted to the incident. My relatives have been raging about this incident and feel embarrassed as well. I don't think anyone is really arguing that it could have happened anywhere in the world but it's pretty obvious the Philippine government and Police Force is being blamed for it. A lot of corruption happening indeed, I was still little when the whole Joseph Estrada took place but I wasn't that clueless that I didn't know something was wrong. I've read a lot of racism going on, don't think it's fair for the rest of the Filipino citizens being called this and that because of this incident. The pictures of people posing is just unclassy and very disrespectful. I'm glad my parents brought me here.

My 2cents

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

Part of the problem like you said is that no one knows how its going to play out. You can be sitting in that situation thinking shit I'm going to tackle him and hopefully he'll go down and maybe he'll only get a shot off an injure someone or kill just one guy. But fuck i'm also thinking that every 10 seconds from now the swat is coming onto the bus and their going to kill the guy and everyone's going to be safe. The problem with calling everyone here a pussy for wanting to wait out the situation is because god forbid I took initiative and got someone killed, and it turns out the the swat team had everything under control. Enjoy playing that situation out in your head over and over again before your fucking brain fry's thinking how you killed someone trying to be a man.

i've already considered that.

i've already mentioned it above. it is a risk im willing to take. and burden im willing to carry with me for the rest of my life.

if i chickened out all the times he walked by me and i just didnt think i had the right chance, or for whatever reason just couldnt get myself up, as soon as someone else took initiative, and i already planned to want to do something or thought some kinda action was possible. i'm their man. i'll follow him to the end. I'll glady die beside them than of sat idle.

this is one of the few situations where you can save a life and/or be responsible for death, but not pay the price of going to prison afterwards for fucking up. the choice is in your hands.

I never mentioned my other motive behind this, other than staying alive. If I did win, I'd execute him. I'll be more than gladly to pay the price of going to prison if I have to. It's okay.

my question to everyone and no one has answered it yet is, if someone else takes that initiative, are you going to sit there or get up?

[Noir]

dude. i would run if i could run, but you cannot run. you're cornered, in a bus, or whatever. you CANNOT run.

my army experience has nothing to do with this, it's just reservist training. so what, i know how to handle an assault rifle and dig trenches, and ...?

they only really taught me 3 things, take initiative, be aggressive, and don't show any mercy.

those are 3 principals any fucking human being should have. not to sit there and be fucking idle and "let things play out" in such a situation. we're not fucking animals. we have brains that are capable of cognitive reasoning... we're not dogs.

the more I read this thread, the more i understand why some countries still instill military conscription. it takes a buncha idle slackass civilians, like most of you, into initiative taking men. i bet no one on that bus ever got in a fight in their life, or put in a situation where they have to think quickly and save their asses.

I'm just as average as you are. hell i bet some country boy is better at handling any firearm and better at everything to do with survival than i am.

the only difference is our minds.

no man, too many hollywood movies for YOU. people don't just sit idle and get saved. only if you're extremely lucky.

we have a service for everything now, locksmith to unlock your door, mechanic to fix your shit, and people to save your life? give me a break.

yes, gambling others lives is part of the game. that was always part of the equation.
wars are won by people on the field that make split second decisions that put the lives of people around them in danger. wars or also lost that way.
and you know who the leaders are? the people that make the decisions and act. everyone else is just a follower, or waiting to die.

you make a decision, fast, and you do it. and you don't turn back. that's the fastest and best way to survive.

this scenario is no different than if you were standing on a busy intersection and you saw someone get fucking hit by a car or crushed or whatever.

99% of you would sit there with your jaw dropped, or crying or whatever else. only 1% of you guys would actually snap out of it, shit kick the crying lady next to you and tell her to call 911, as you run down and try to help out.

it's the exact same thing. so now i ask you, are you the type that'll sit back and just be awe struck, or make a split second decision and take action? or do you need someone to take action for you?


all i had to know was this, there's many of us, in a small place, and 1 of him. he has one assault rifle, maybe some hidden weapons, and maybe a few magazines. who knows. it's an easy decision. 1-2+ people can take him down. i KNOW i can make him point that thing somewhere else as long as i get my hands on the barrel, luckily for me i know how to release the magazine. ok so at this point, it took me like fuckin half a second to analyze that. if i had 2+ hours or whatever, dude, i could easily think of all the other possibilities. ok he might have a bomb, he might have another hand gun.

THOSE ARE RISKS IM WILLING TO TAKE. so what if he has a knife? and another hand gun? he's gotta let one hand go to get the other. then i have twice as much control over the rifle. he starts swinging with his knife? go ahead, im not going to fucking let go.

everyone wears a belt. that can be used as a weapon. fuck. you know how quickly you can get a belt around someones neck and just yank and run down the aisle. if you're lucky you'll crush his trachea that way. there's so many possible things that COULD work. some better than others. but all u need is TWO people willing to risk their lives.

it's so easy to decide dude. SO easy.

1 guy shot already, possibility of you getting shot: high.
possbility of others getting killed: high.

so on one hand you have this: 2 people can risk their lives and save everyone, and maybe potentially get everyone killed (and you remember the "swat" are outside and might burst in to help, that's another possibility).

or on the other hand you can sit there and be slack and idle and watch another person get shot, and slowly run out of options and hope the swat will save you, when ONE person has already fucking been killed. ONE person is ONE too many. after ONE person, he has no reason to STOP.

don't tell me you've never been in a last stand, all in glory situation. you fucked up. there's no way out, you already fucked up, just fuck it all and fuck up even more at least you stood for something right? everyone's been in that situation. stubborn as hell, you fucked up, FUCK IT, just fuck it all. i know i have.

if i was the hostage taker, and i killed one person. u know what, im gonna kill them all. it makes no difference. especially with rage and anger filling up. the only thing that matters is pain and suffering that i can inflict. that's exactly how he felt. i know it, you know it.

it doesn't take a genius to figure that one out.


i'll tell you another scenario. imagine this was the exact same thing. except instead of being on a bus full of slack idle hongers. it's a bus full of texan americans. i fucking BET YOU my LIFE, that they woulda taken the hostagetaker down. maybe they woulda lost 1-2 hostages in the process. MAYBE, but that's worth it.

aggressiveness, initiative > slack and idle. always.

yeah you give up your wallet. a wallet isnt your life. you can buy another wallet. you cant buy another life.
like i said, someone's been shot already. killed. without any damn good reason.

so you should be asking, if there are a buncha you lined up, and the bad guy asks a guy for his wallet, the guy gives the wallet and then he gets shot anyway, when its your turn, are you just gonna hand over your wallet? FUCK NO. throw it in his god damn face and im gonna try to kick his balls or anything before i get shot.

it's not 20%. you have the element of surprise. the last thing he expects is a hostage to jump him.
that ambush, that element of surprise gives you a huge advantage for a very short window of opportunity. you know even if he were to walk past you and u grabbed his face and just gouged your fingers into his eyes, you've already almost won.

we're talking about THAT situation now ok. if there were 2-3 of them on that bus holding hostages, i wouldnt of done shit. cuz that's a 0% chance to win, unless somehow every hostage jumped them at the same time which wouldn't happen unless they could some how communicate.
unless you are extremely super lucky and somehow grab one weapon and mow everyone else down. but that's not realistic.

there's so many things u could do. another idea is, how many of you have lighters? just set something in the bus on fire.

yes im sorry that is very selfish, he could go berzerk and kill you all, you could end up killing someone else, but you know what, he aint gonna stay on the fucking burning bus. these are just all ideas im pulling out of my ass while i sit here eating cereal, listening to music. im not even trying.

another thing is, what are you gonna do? if im there and i do it, you're not gonna tell me to sit down when im already ontop of the gunman struggling. are you really gonna sit there?
im asking you to answer this ONE question. if you are in a hostage situation like this one. and someone took initiative, and they're struggling, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?
he's already made the decision for you slack idle ass. you have no choice. well you do, you can sit there and CONTINUE to be idle, or help out. WHAT are you going to do?

my point is, everything involves the risk of others' lives. and whoever takes initiative, controls their lives. if no one takes initiative, you might as well pray to god or jesus or allah or whatever, cuz all that's gonna get you is a one way ticket to heaven.

I might have died. I might have saved them. maybe 9 people would have died instead of 8.
or maybe 7 instead.

my point is, it doesn't matter.

im just trying to say, you shouldn't be slack and idle. anyone of your lives should be expendable for the sake of wanting to save yourself and others. you shouldn't have to think too hard about it. it's only your physical body anyways, if you're religious, why would you even be scared? right?

yeah maybe you're right. if only i had been on that bus. I might of been that guy handcuffed and shot first. he killed the most serious threat first. probably the young man that woulda done something.

that young man could have been any of you. I sure as hell wouldn't of cooperated.

life sucks, and then you die. what are you going to do about it.

i've already considered that.

i've already mentioned it above. it is a risk im willing to take. and burden im willing to carry with me for the rest of my life.

if i chickened out all the times he walked by me and i just didnt think i had the right chance, or for whatever reason just couldnt get myself up, as soon as someone else took initiative, and i already planned to want to do something or thought some kinda action was possible. i'm their man. i'll follow him to the end. I'll glady die beside them than of sat idle.

this is one of the few situations where you can save a life and/or be responsible for death, but not pay the price of going to prison afterwards for fucking up. the choice is in your hands.

I never mentioned my other motive behind this, other than staying alive. If I did win, I'd execute him. I'll be more than gladly to pay the price of going to prison if I have to. It's okay.

my question to everyone and no one has answered it yet is, if someone else takes that initiative, are you going to sit there or get up?

We get it. In fact we got it 8 years ago a few years after Revscene started. You've always been pro-conflict.

Rationalize it all you want but at the end of the day "initiating" conflict on your hostage holder only makes things more complex not only to your hostage taker, but your hostage rescue team, and your fellow hostages.

But hey... at least you've stroked your manly pride right. You're not anyone's bitch. :rolleyes:

[EmperorIS]

We get it. In fact we got it 8 years ago a few years after Revscene started. You've always been pro-conflict.

Rationalize it all you want but at the end of the day "initiating" conflict on your hostage holder only makes things more complex not only to your hostage taker, but your hostage rescue team, and your fellow hostages.

But hey... at least you've stroked your manly pride right. You're not anyone's bitch. :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzBnFutegJE

[m4k4v4li]

.

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

lmao set the bus on fire? are you retarded? if he goes outside hes dead if hes inside hes dead. gg game over for everyone

im confident you would seriously consider doing something. but u can't say you would do something in a life or death situation you've never been put in. even say n00b trained marines may freeze up when they're put in situations that are real. everything they've been taught goes out the window.

a few nights ago i was blazing with like 10 guys in a park and someone mentioned getting attacked by racoons... my one buddy starts going off about how you have to stand your ground, scare it away blah blah blah and the sprinkler goes off behind us and hes the first one to book it lol... thats what you remind me of atm

that's not logical. he's dead outside? so what's the point of a negotiations if you're dead no matter what? please enlighten me. and you took what i said out of context. i said that was one of my few small ideas that just came to me while i was sitting here with my thumb up my ass. give me an hour in a stress situation and i'll build a laser rifle out of a pop can and a magnifying glass, i might need a flashlight. hah.
your friend knows logically what to, and he is the first to react. I'd go into battle with him than you guys. all that matters is he made a decision way faster than you guys could even blink.



Noir, you still didn't answer my question.

that's the only thing that matters here.

that's what this whole argument is about. whether people like you, would pick your idle ass up and do anything if anyone else got up BEFORE you.

there's no point arguing about whether DOING anything is right, cuz as long as there are people like me, and there are plenty, then this is a real possibility.

I stood my side, you still haven't even admitted to what you would do.

i asked you a serious and very rational and possible question. you can't even answer it.

who'd wanna be stuck on a bus with you. for real. i've asked you like 3 times.

i've booked it 3 blocks at 2-4am to 4 fatality car crashes that I hear just to go check up on the victim. and they're always dead or dying. No one else usually shows up. and if they do, they just stand about 100-200m away with cameras or their hands over their mouths. c'mon. I don't claim shit without having experience of competition against other people in act or react (or lack of reaction) situations.

sorry man.

I'm not arguing anymore, cuz i just realised another point.

Your life would be my hands in these situations. I'm willing to die for the cause, and take a chance. You might, you might not. so it doesnt fucking matter what you think anymore. Someone else decided for you, me.

I'm going to bed now.

[SkinnyPupp]

Chance of surviving a bus hostage takeover under different scenarios:

-In the US or Serbia: 99%
-In the Philippines: 55%
-In the US or Serbia with Ulic or some other hero wannabe on board: 35%

[Noir]

you still didn't answer my question.

that's the only thing that matters here.

that's what this whole argument is about. whether people like you, would pick your idle ass up and do anything if anyone else got up BEFORE you.

there's no point arguing about whether DOING anything is right, cuz as long as there are people like me, and there are plenty, then this is a real possibility.

I stood my side, you still haven't even admitted to what you would do.

i asked you a serious and very rational and possible question. you can't even answer it.

who'd wanna be stuck on a bus with you. for real. i've asked you like 3 times.


Fine, I'll answer. Yes I'll sit my ass down until things get to the point of no return.

Translation:
As long as situation has not escalated to violence, I will not provoke it. If does take that turn, then yes - survival instincts all the way. I don't care if you fight, I don't care if you play dead. But I only escalate when things are unsalvageable.


The reason why I'm getting into slavegeable vs. unsalvageable is because I think a lot of you are forgetting that in a hostage situation, you ARE the bargaining chip. Which means it is in the hostage taker's best interest to keep you alive as long as possible. So I don't see the sense of pushing a hostage taker to have to escalate the violence towards you and your peers.



sorry man.

I'm not arguing anymore, cuz i just realised another point.

Your life would be my hands, in these situations, I'm willing to die for the cause, and a chance, you're not, so haha. it doesnt fucking matter what you think anymore.
I'm going to bed now.

Jesus. And your camp is accusing my camp that we're the selfish ones :rolleyes:

[FerrariEnzo]

wow... i just read the last 2 pages, sooo much personal attacks...

everyone has their own ways to deal with situations. quick reactions maybe not always be good, some will be...

unless you have martial arts background or trained in hostage situations, never do anything and just listen, theres more of a chance of survival. just my thoughts.

[danned]

dont' ever go phillippines
its shit there

[Gumby]

my question to everyone and no one has answered it yet is, if someone else takes that initiative, are you going to sit there or get up?
I won't take the initiative, but if there was one hostage taker, someone jumped him and I was near by, I would jump in too.

Fine, I'll answer. Yes I'll sit my ass down until things get to the point of no return.
The moment someone jumps the bad guy - that would be the point of no return for me.

[Vinny G]

^^ yeah. I wouldn't randomly jump the attacker but if all the hostages made a plan and we all understood that we could die at any moment then yeah, I'd jump in. I think when the hostage taker gets to the point of shooting hostages for no reason and the police still haven't done shit, then that's when you have to make a plan to take him down.

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

Thanks you finally. That's all I was looking for.

I want to know what would make someone get up to help. What everyone's point of no return is.

Mine would be after the first person got shot. But I would be on the edge of doing something beforehand. Very very edge. If any other hostage even winked or nodded at me... Let's play ball.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[Gumby]

If any other hostage even winked or nodded at me... Let's play ball.
What if it was a chick and she winked at you just cuz she thought you were cute? :p

[Noir]

Thanks you finally. That's all I was looking for.

I want to know what would make someone get up to help. What everyone's point of no return is.

Mine would be after the first person got shot. But I would be on the edge of doing something beforehand. Very very edge. If any other hostage even winked or nodded at me... Let's play ball.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

I find it really entertaining that you view this as just a game and risk of life and death is just a trivial decision to you. Unfortunately real life isn't anywhere near CODMW2 where you can hit melee and you automatically warp onto the hostage taker for an auto-kill.

IMO, you only have the luxury to talk a big game because you can Monday Night Quarterback what you saw on the Philippine incident. I wonder if you'd still be as brave if your lone hostage taker also had a pressure trigger on explosive devices. Or if the hostage team was a multi-person crew.

It's going to take more than just a wink from another person to come out on top of the so many "what ifs" or unknown variables that can come into play.

[Gt-R R34]

Lots of resentment towards the Phillipines Govie. WELL F-ing DESERVED.

Let me propose another situation, Would things be handled differently.

If that bus was full of true-blood white American. Would the situation differ?
Would the situation be handled in a completely different manner? Instead of police, throwing glow sticks, or missing tear gas and leaving it on the ground.

Would the Army get involved?

Anyone?

[Ferra]

i would jump the attacker only if
1) I know with very high probability I will be killed eventually. (i.e. you got kidnapped and the kidnapper showed you his face, or you are in a hijacked plane and you know the hijacker is trying to crash it)
or 2) There is a 99% chance I can subdue him in the situation.

pretty sure I wouldn't jump the attacker in this case because I would've believed the police will place a high priority on our safety, and are competent to help us out (which didn't turn out to be true, but you can't look at this retrospectively)

If you are in Canada, i'd say your chance of getting hurt in a hostage situation is pretty low.
they wouldn't have expected the Philippine police force to be so incompetent in the first place.

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

I find it really entertaining that you view this as just a game and risk of life and death is just a trivial decision to you. Unfortunately real life isn't anywhere near CODMW2 where you can hit melee and you automatically warp onto the hostage taker for an auto-kill.

IMO, you only have the luxury to talk a big game because you can Monday Night Quarterback what you saw on the Philippine incident. I wonder if you'd still be as brave if your lone hostage taker also had a pressure trigger on explosive devices. Or if the hostage team was a multi-person crew.

It's going to take more than just a wink from another person to come out on top of the so many "what ifs" or unknown variables that can come into play.

I don't play call of duty. The only game I play is life. If you haven't noticed life is a big game. A very serious game. And I took all those decisions very seriously. They're not trivial.
I can flip it back right at you. Who are you to decide to do nothing? Who are you to decide that doing nothing is better? For the exact reasons I can do the same.

Dude we're talking about THIS situation. If they had multiple guys or bombs your chances of survival if you fight are OBVIOUSLY less. I don't even think you're thinking at the same level as I am. You're on a totally different page.

You honestly don't get it. All those "unknown variables" are nothing. They don't mean anything. They are risks you have to take. Whether you choose to be idle or choose to take action. You're facing the exact same unknown variables as I am. You're taking a leap of faith hoping doing nothing will help. I'm just doing the exact opposite. The only difference is something aint gonna come outta nothing.

To answer your question, I would still be as brave if there was multiple gunmen and bombs. But I'd have to think of another strategy to fight back cuz I obviously cannot win at all cuz its a different scenario. Which requires a different strategy, a strategy that probaby will not work. I'm being realistic. Perhaps I'd think to myself, if most or all hostages are dead but me. Well fuck it. Martyrdom. If there's a bomb, my life is worth the sacrifice to take those motherfuckers out.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[will068]

Lots of resentment towards the Phillipines Govie. WELL F-ing DESERVED.

Let me propose another situation, Would things be handled differently.

If that bus was full of true-blood white American. Would the situation differ?
Would the situation be handled in a completely different manner? Instead of police, throwing glow sticks, or missing tear gas and leaving it on the ground.

Would the Army get involved?

Anyone?

If it was white Americans involved. Yes, the CIA may have pushed the Philippine Government for American intervention or the Philippine Army involved.

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

Let me propose another situation, Would things be handled differently.

If that bus was full of true-blood white American. Would the situation differ?
Anyone?

Yeah,the gunman would be fuckin crushed by the hostages inside. If they were true blooded americans, they would have done something. It's the fucking phillipines. Who in their right mind would trust their enforcement agency to do anything?
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

The army getting involved wouldn't help. You forget that all those police officers have the same training as the army. They've all gone through it. Unlike canada they have to join the army. You'd have to get special forces or some force trained to rescue hostages. The only difference is the army and police there is, the army has bigger weapons, and they're more "kill first, ask questions later" which doesn't help the situation.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[bigG]

Sorry if this was mentioned already but the thread was too long.

It was a sad day when I saw that on the news. R.I.P to the victims and my deep condolences to the families.

Now, dealing with the government and it's authority will take some time, and hopefully after all of the investigation done that they find the person who was responsible for the failure of the negotiations (as well as other things,) but I think that was the main focal point.

From what I've seen the news the Police in the Philippines are now training for various hostage situations.

This incident that had occurred reminded me of the Munich summer games which involved hostage taking by terrorist and I the GSG9 were formed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSG_9

And I think SWAT in the U.S was formed (or helped it form) after the Texas Sniper Massacre in 1966.

[NinjaAceYork]

Guys, let your inner racism stay inside your heart.

I'm full blooded filipino and i'm very aware of how fking retarded the government in the Philippines are.. Specially the fking corrupt police or any type of security. They are corrupt coz they are poor. When you are poor, you do anything to make sure your family has food on the table and roofs over their heads. Like you guys, it irritates me how fking stupid they handled that situation, but keep in mind, it's a 3rd world country. To get real training you need MONEY, which they don't have.

That incident could've happened to any other country. You guys blow this out of proportion. How about those emo kids that spread bullets in school? Does that mean i shouldn't like schools because there is a chance that somebody is gonna start shooting because some kid couldn't handle being bullied anymore?

What about that korean guy that started shooting in school? should i hate koreans? Don't hate all filipinos because some ex-cop shot up tourists in the philippines. I admit those pictures taken by the bystanders after the incident is retarded. But that, in no way, shape or form, mean that all filipinos are like that..

Before you guys come out with opinions about a race, think about how that type of handling came to it's result. 3rd world country, means 3rd world government. Period.

God am i glad im in vancouver.

[Valour]

Hey! Let's talk about filipino celebs again!!


1) batista half
2) prince half
3) rob schneider half
4) nicole sczherzinger mixed

hmmmm, tere sure a lot of halfers... oh wait!!! PAQIAO! They should have sent him inside the bus! Him and Brandon Vera and ernie reyes jr!

[NinjaAceYork]

Hey! Let's talk about filipino celebs again!!


1) batista half
2) prince half
3) rob schneider half
4) nicole sczherzinger mixed

hmmmm, tere sure a lot of halfers... oh wait!!! PAQIAO! They should have sent him inside the bus! Him and Brandon Vera and ernie reyes jr!


they should've lol

[Not really racist!]

What a bunch of fucking pigs. These guys need to get shot

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs187.ash2/45044_154631861219336_100000175688469_514288_47120 17_n.jpg

[BNR32_Coupe]

I don't play call of duty. The only game I play is life. If you haven't noticed life is a big game. A very serious game. And I took all those decisions very seriously. They're not trivial.
I can flip it back right at you. Who are you to decide to do nothing? Who are you to decide that doing nothing is better? For the exact reasons I can do the same.

Hey I play that game too. Only I actually take mine seriously and the lives of others as well. In the right time I might risk my personal life against a hostage taker 1 on 1 but when other lives are at risk, I'm putting my ego aside and sitting this one through. With your mentality, Ulic, the police should just firebomb the entire bus and whoever survives, survives. Because if you're 40 yr old joe-blow and run up to 10-time award winning ex-cop with close quarter combat training hostage taker and run the risk of him further losing his mind and killing everyone else, then you're in the same boat with the police just firebombing the entire bus.


You honestly don't get it. All those "unknown variables" are nothing. They don't mean anything. They are risks you have to take. Whether you choose to be idle or choose to take action. You're facing the exact same unknown variables as I am. You're taking a leap of faith hoping doing nothing will help. I'm just doing the exact opposite. The only difference is something aint gonna come outta nothing.


No - the unknown variables are there's a sniper with a clear shot at the target and you just stood up and blocked it. The unknown variables are he could have a trigger to a remote bomb that would detonate a highly populated building. If you don't think logically then you're more comparable to a dog than those who "sit". I don't know if you understand this but logic and reason has gotten people further than thinking and reacting by emotions, like apes or wild animals.

You forgot to mention one more thing - the difference is you're risking other peoples lives for a lower probability of success. You're betting families lives with the odds against you.

The hostage taker was cooperative at first, then when he was agitated, he started killing people. Do you see a link here? Agitate hostage killer = hostages killed.

If you're so pro survival, Ulic, why haven't you raised the possibility of negotiating with the hostage taker? Psychology is powerful, and although I'm not a psych major (I hope one can step in) I know that our brains are hardwired to resist killing other members of our own race. Therefore by talking to the hostage taker and making yourself and others more "real" to him, you can make him hesitant to pull the trigger, or at the very least, you can convince him to release the women and children. But why do that when you can gamble everyones lives? It doesn't matter if you fail and have others killed - cause you'll be dead anyways right?

[Ford_Fanatic]

Ulic, you can be my wingman anyday!

[Jet]

What a bunch of fucking pigs. These guys need to get shot

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs187.ash2/45044_154631861219336_100000175688469_514288_47120 17_n.jpg

I sure hope that the picture of the President there is taken out of context and he wasn't smiling the entire time he was looking over the scene ... I don't like Aquino to start with but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt on these pictures ... but they are not looking good for him ...

[neggo]

^ He obviously wasn't smiling the entire time - he was most probably shitting and pissing himself about what happened.

Those pictures show just how retarded people can be. People can really be fucking dumb.

But I guess there will always be a handful of idiots and retards amongst any large group of people.

[Noir]

I don't play call of duty. The only game I play is life. If you haven't noticed life is a big game. A very serious game. And I took all those decisions very seriously. They're not trivial.
I can flip it back right at you. Who are you to decide to do nothing? Who are you to decide that doing nothing is better? For the exact reasons I can do the same.

Dude we're talking about THIS situation. If they had multiple guys or bombs your chances of survival if you fight are OBVIOUSLY less. I don't even think you're thinking at the same level as I am. You're on a totally different page.

You honestly don't get it. All those "unknown variables" are nothing. They don't mean anything. They are risks you have to take. Whether you choose to be idle or choose to take action. You're facing the exact same unknown variables as I am. You're taking a leap of faith hoping doing nothing will help. I'm just doing the exact opposite. The only difference is something aint gonna come outta nothing.

Exactly!

You're only talking about THIS situation because you have the luxury to Monday Night Quarter back it. What are the odds that most hostage crisis always plays out for you identitially?

Secondly you're the one who honeslty doesn't get it. Unknown variables are something and can mean everything. You're the one who already said you're just an army reserve. Rolando Mendoza has been a cop for all his career. What if he had hand-to-hand combat training? What if he had 30 lbs. on you? Sure you die and you don't care about that, but you've just escalated things for your other hostagees and the HRT's that have to deal with your mess. But hey, at least the honour and glory has been satisfied in your own personal pride is it not.

You see, you may play out the heroics in mind:

1. Grab M16 muzzle, point upwards in the air.
2. Free hand punch to midsection, disable attacker.
3. Wrestle rifle from surprised attacker, point rifle to attacker to subdue.
Summar Prognosis: I win, me macho, me get girls.

But I'll have to wish you good luck dude because I think you've been watching too much of Robert Downy Jr's Sherlock Holmes. :lol



To answer your question, I would still be as brave if there was multiple gunmen and bombs. But I'd have to think of another strategy to fight back cuz I obviously cannot win at all cuz its a different scenario. Which requires a different strategy, a strategy that probaby will not work. I'm being realistic. Perhaps I'd think to myself, if most or all hostages are dead but me. Well fuck it. Martyrdom. If there's a bomb, my life is worth the sacrifice to take those motherfuckers out.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

Good for you.

If you're that so good, why not buy a scuba suit and fight crime for a hobby. I think the harder you try, the easier to see that your faux-machismo is resembling closer and closer to Bradford Chow ridiculousness.

You're going from one of the most notorious posters of RS to one of the biggest joke in RS. "I don't care, I could still take care of an army of hostage takers. I just have to adjust my strategy a little bit." :bullshit::rofl:

[raygunpk]

Somebody tried to confront the guy, and then got killed along with his family. They were Canadian citizens.