[EmperorIS]

http://www.news1130.com/news/local/article/127235--report-students-avoid-colleges-they-think-are-too-asian

intellectual cowards scared of a little competition

might as well save your college money and go do something else because in real society competition is even more fierce

[TheNewGirl]

.... those people are too ignorant to be educated to begin with.

[Qmx323]

Whaaaaat.

Thats just fucking sad man.

Thats just so fucking sad.

[SB7]

Wow I just read the article, if all non-asian people think this way, (which they don't...) it's going to be a complete asian takeover in the next few years.

I remember back when I was in elementary school, Richmond wasn't even half as asian as it was now. Slowly as the years went by, asian influence grew greater and greater. I think there is some merit in the non-asian's arguement... Only because it is probably true in most cases that parents push their children harder to succeed early on and some even till past their high school years.

In Japan, high school kids study harder than anywhere i've heard of, imagine a day where you wake up extra early (around 5-6am) to do your homework, go to school the whole day, grab whatever snack you can afterwards, and march straight on to cram school for another several hours.

The funny part is once Japanese students graduate and go to university... It's an all out party :rofl:

[2damaxmr2]

That is alright. We need more people working @ the kfc. I am sick and tired of 15min lineup for double down.

[Matlock]

The only reason this should be a concern to anyone is if there are not enough people enrolled to have the courses.
Otherwise /win
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[tool001]

well, one way or another they will have to deal with it, if not in school, then in job where they will be reporting to asians due to higher education

[gdoh]

wow complain more, how bout they man the fuck up and stop bitching

[Matlock]

Oh, I suppose you could also be pissed off if you wanted a minimum wage job and have to compete with these racists.

Otherwise /win
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[br2]

rofl this is the exact same thing the natives thought when the white people moved in

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

pussy

[bcedhk]

aren't we already compromising the gwai lo's by naming most colleges to
"universities" now to make them feel better?

[Qmx323]

rofl this is the exact same thing the natives thought when the white people moved in


Yes but natives can do jack shit and STILL get into university :)

[twitchyzero]

aren't we already compromising the gwai lo's by naming most colleges to
"universities" now to make them feel better?

I'm tempted to fail and thank this comment at the same time.

[Elder_MMHS]

Thanks - that was interesting/bizarre for me to read. I never considered a school's ethnic demography as any factor in education selection (I am a 'Banana').

Direct URL: http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/11/10/too-asian/

I don't always agree with stuff published in Maclean's as many articles I've read both now and in the past seem to have some sort of indescribable edge/bias... but they are pointed and thought-provoking.

[dachinesedude]

That MacLeans article was really interesting, some parts of it are so true too

If it is scientifically proven that Asians are smarter than others, then they can complain. But there is no such thing, so what are they ranting about? Blaming Asians for their own lack of determination, they're just fucking lazy to work hard and are afraid of a little competition

If they think its hard to get into a university here in Canada, they should really visit Asia

[darkfroggy]

LOL what a fucking cop out.

You might as well not breathe because too many people are doing it.

[sonick]

If it is scientifically proven that Asians are smarter than others, then they can complain. But there is no such thing, so what are they ranting about? Blaming Asians for their own lack of determination, they're just fucking lazy to work hard and are afraid of a little competition

lol wut

[The_AK]

That's some pathetic thinking. Why compete in life in general then? I must say I'm disappointed with these kind of people.
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[flagella]

Wow I just read the article, if all non-asian people think this way, (which they don't...) it's going to be a complete asian takeover in the next few years.

I remember back when I was in elementary school, Richmond wasn't even half as asian as it was now. Slowly as the years went by, asian influence grew greater and greater. I think there is some merit in the non-asian's arguement... Only because it is probably true in most cases that parents push their children harder to succeed early on and some even till past their high school years.

In Japan, high school kids study harder than anywhere i've heard of, imagine a day where you wake up extra early (around 5-6am) to do your homework, go to school the whole day, grab whatever snack you can afterwards, and march straight on to cram school for another several hours.

The funny part is once Japanese students graduate and go to university... It's an all out party :rofl:

Then obviously you don't know China, because it's 10x worse. The common thing they share is that, Asians (the good students) study their asses off to get into good universities, but once they are in, life becomes a lot easier.

In here, you just chill in HS, but work your ass off in university.

[bcedhk]

That MacLeans article was really interesting, some parts of it are so true too

If it is scientifically proven that Asians are smarter than others, then they can complain. But there is no such thing, so what are they ranting about? Blaming Asians for their own lack of determination, they're just fucking lazy to work hard and are afraid of a little competition

If they think its hard to get into a university here in Canada, they should really visit Asia

??? race does not determine smartness. Just look back @ the list of Nobel prize winners in the scientific field. There is as much, if not more caucasians in the list than asians.

[liu13]

university is pretty chill, highschool is super chill

[bcedhk]

Then obviously you don't know China, because it's 10x worse. The common thing they share is that, Asians (the good students) study their asses off to get into good universities, but once they are in, life becomes a lot easier.

In here, you just chill in HS, but work your ass off in university.

+1. When u made it to University in China, you know you will have 4 years of freedom/party time before u graduate and find a job.

[Jgresch]

I must admit the jump from a 90% white high school to a 95% colored university was a big change for me, but it doesn't bother me... everyone is just as friendly :)

[twitchyzero]

??? race does not determine smartness. Just look back @ the list of Nobel prize winners in the scientific field. There is as much, if not more caucasians in the list than asians.

it doesn't, but then again nobel prize is biased towards the west.

and if there was ever an EQ/IQ ranking by popultaion of everyone in the world..i wouldn't be surprised if koreans and jews top the list.

[Hondaracer]

If Asians were as skilled in walking as they are in math I wouldn't keep knocking em over in the halls, my only complaint with my highschool and subsequent post-secondary experiences on the matter :p
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[dachinesedude]

??? race does not determine smartness. Just look back @ the list of Nobel prize winners in the scientific field. There is as much, if not more caucasians in the list than asians.

That's what I meant, there's no such thing as a smarter race, so why are they complaining, everyone has the ability to compete
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[bcrdukes]

In all seriousness, c'mon. It's an article written by Maclean's magazine. Let's not forget about their editorial style and political stance. Most importantly, let's not forget which social class they cater to.

[will068]

As long as the hot white chicks do not decrease, I'm good.

http://captionsearch.com/pix/thumb/urvzh7oyn-t.png

[bengy]

So basically, the article says white kids don't want to go to University of Toronto because the majority of the population is no fun Asian kids that spend most of their time studying, while most white kids want to spend most of the time partying :rofl:

[deep87]

The article is about how a high percentage of asian students effects university culture. The quote about not wanting to compete with asian students was about the impact that always doing homework has on your social life. If anyone actually read the article they would have read that instead of going to the "Asian" schools the white kids went elsewhere not giving up on university altogether like some of you have said.

The article has some major flaws but also some truth to it. I'm studying at UBC right now and 2/3 of my class are 'Asian' (english is second language). The Asians hardly interact with the other 1/3rd of the class and vice versa. Hell, they even sit seperately not to mention that I havn't heard a word of english come out of that side of class for over a month. So I can kind of understand why canadian highschool student who want to study but also have some fun at University don't want to be surrounded by Asians.

"students have dubbed the Mathematics & Computer Building and the Computer Research Centre, respectively—“mainland China” and “downtown China,” and where some students told Maclean’s they can go for days without speaking English" :rofl:

[anti_rice]

And this is why if you walk down hastings all you see are caucasian homeless people and very rarely do you ever see an homeless asian person.

[1exotic]

And this is why if you walk down hastings all you see are caucasian homeless people and very rarely do you ever see an homeless asian person.

And this is why you're racist.

[GabAlmighty]

Honestly, the article does have some merit. If you would all get off your high pedestals and look at it from an objective view you would see that.

aren't we already compromising the gwai lo's by naming most colleges to
"universities" now to make them feel better?

I left SFU cuz it's a shit fucking university where all the profs care about is research and do not strive to educate students. Plus, the newly named university, UFV had the program I wanted.

For what it's worth there's still a shit ton of "asians" at UFV. And man are there way better looking girls at UFV.

[PiuYi]

In all seriousness, c'mon. It's an article written by Maclean's magazine. Let's not forget about their editorial style and political stance. Most importantly, let's not forget which social class they cater to.

what, what, and who?

And this is why if you walk down hastings all you see are caucasian homeless people and very rarely do you ever see an homeless asian person.

i've thought about this too, why there is a disproportionately low number of Asians as homeless people and I think the simple answer would be Canada's tough immigration laws. The Asians who do qualify to immigrate to Canada are either educated, skilled, or wealthy, so the chances of them falling into poverty are pretty much nil



an issue the article didn't address was really what universities as institutions are meant for... they are places of research, higher academic achievement, and are supposed to be the pinnacle of society. The fact that in recent decades it has come to be a 4 year drinking-fest extension of highschool doesn't mean it should be this way

[bcrdukes]

.

[bcedhk]

Honestly, the article does have some merit. If you would all get off your high pedestals and look at it from an objective view you would see that.

I left SFU cuz it's a shit fucking university where all the profs care about is research and do not strive to educate students. Plus, the newly named university, UFV had the program I wanted.

For what it's worth there's still a shit ton of "asians" at UFV. And man are there way better looking girls at UFV.

but thats is what university is meant for, research. if you want to be educated in the post-secondary level, you do it at your own will. On Maclean's magazine and other websites, you don't see SFU/UBC being rated for their ability to prepare you for a full-time job, rather than rate on the quality of research opportunities/standards. Profs in university are just there to talk about their own field of research and hopefully shed some light at those who wish to pursue it.

Ubc/sfu does not prepare you for real-life work experiences. If you want an education that will help you prepare for a job, then go to BCIT or a community college.

[Hondaracer]

in the end, getting a job in Canada/North America is based largely on who you know, and personal skills you have

people who have English as a second language are generally behind in both areas in your typical work force, so in some ways immigrants and first born generations of Canadians have to work even harder to obtain the same benefits and opportunities that a long time Canadian family may already have

generally speaking of course

[iEatClams]

Being an alumni myself, the only thing I dont like about UBC is that there are too many damn students that can't speak any English. They take the LPI 15 X so they can stay in the school. (I think they changed this rule or something from what I heard as I graduated awhile ago)

But HOLY FUCK !!!>>> A LOT of students there have the worst writing ever, and can't even hold a normal English conversation. Like HOW THE FUCK DID THESE PEOPLE GET INTO UBC!!?!?!?!?!!! And I find some of these students are in the harder programs to get into like Commerce and stuff too, and not any students on any exchange program where you would expect them to suck at English. This is the only thing that if I were White, I would be fucking pissed at, so I can understand some of the hate from white peeps.

UBC needs to address this issue, cause it brings down the reputation of the school.

[Jegz]

They get $$$

[Jgresch]

For what it's worth there's still a shit ton of "asians" at UFV. And man are there way better looking girls at UFV.

UFV: Where the girls are half as smart and therefore twice as likely to feliesh me

[Hondaracer]

Being an alumni myself, the only thing I dont like about UBC is that there are too many damn students that can't speak any English. They take the LPI 15 X so they can stay in the school. (I think they changed this rule or something from what I heard as I graduated awhile ago)

But HOLY FUCK !!!>>> A LOT of students there have the worst writing ever, and can't even hold a normal English conversation. Like HOW THE FUCK DID THESE PEOPLE GET INTO UBC!!?!?!?!?!!! And I find some of these students are in the harder programs to get into like Commerce and stuff too, and not any students on any exchange program where you would expect them to suck at English. This is the only thing that if I were White, I would be fucking pissed at, so I can understand some of the hate from white peeps.

UBC needs to address this issue, cause it brings down the reputation of the school.

Being stuck in a group for projects with somone that cannot speak english is beyond frustrating

when i first attended BCIT i remember we had a pretty large project with a week to do it, and one guy in our group could not speak english even to convey an idea on what should be done or how to do it

His contribution? he came to class the next day and handed out pirated copies of microsoft Excel to our group lol

[Wongtouski]

Being an alumni myself, the only thing I dont like about UBC is that there are too many damn students that can't speak any English. They take the LPI 15 X so they can stay in the school. (I think they changed this rule or something from what I heard as I graduated awhile ago)

But HOLY FUCK !!!>>> A LOT of students there have the worst writing ever, and can't even hold a normal English conversation. Like HOW THE FUCK DID THESE PEOPLE GET INTO UBC!!?!?!?!?!!! And I find some of these students are in the harder programs to get into like Commerce and stuff too, and not any students on any exchange program where you would expect them to suck at English. This is the only thing that if I were White, I would be fucking pissed at, so I can understand some of the hate from white peeps.

UBC needs to address this issue, cause it brings down the reputation of the school.

WERD.....I took t-log and holy mother of god I thought I had class in China, most of the Chinese girls you see in class are straight up China, and while their English is ok, they never interact outside their circle.

BTW, anyone here read Outliers? It talked a little bit about why Asians tend to get higher grades (strictly a cultural thing). And if you watch the "Ascent of Money" series (I THINK its from that show - 5-6 eps), it also talks about schools like UCLA and Berkeley having the same issue. Once they bump up the entry grades - all u see are Asians.

[Wongtouski]

Being stuck in a group for projects with somone that cannot speak english is beyond frustrating

when i first attended BCIT i remember we had a pretty large project with a week to do it, and one guy in our group could not speak english even to convey an idea on what should be done or how to do it

His contribution? he came to class the next day and handed out pirated copies of microsoft Excel to our group lol

LOL Speaking of group projects with people that don't speak Eng. I've had several times where there I had Korean partners that spoke literallly no English. I've had a China student (girl), who thought she was Japanese. Called her once only to get her voicemail.......in full-on Japanese.

Not as bad as what my friend had to go through though. She had a bunch of Mexican girls that were her partners. They were seen once or twice, the rest of the time they're either at Whistler or some other resort, they would ask her for materials to photocopy. And when they returned the stuff the papers were all mangled, in the wrong order and all the holes were ripped. MAN I miss UBC LOL.

[Arash]

Some cultures have a high discipline for education, where the parents would sacrifice their income and housing space to nurture their children so that they can get the best grades possible.

I feel Caucasian immigrants that have been in Canada for a long time, have had there priorities tainted by American culture. Even the system is broken with its fractional reserve banking, which leads to the rich getting richer and the systems plan to break the middle class.

If none Asian kids were to attend private schools (since high schools are dumbed down by the system), given proper food, and the kids not made to work, this would set the base for a successful student.

Now television, studying habits, and the kids friends are other influences, but overall, the more you study for your standardized test, the better grades you'll get.

At the end of the day, I want my doctor to have graduated from the best school and to be the top of his/her class.

[GabAlmighty]

Arash.

I have lived here my entire life. I went to a "dumb" public school. I guess I was given proper food (joys of having a french mom who likes to cook), and boy did I work and still do work alot. And i'm still successful

I watch alot of tv, game, forumemise (ya, I made Forum into a verb), and for the most part my friends don't go to school and just party (and I party hard with them), I don't study for whatever the fuck a standardized test is. And I still got good grades.

Basically, I've done the opposite of everything you've stated that you need to do in order to not suck at life and I don't suck at life.

Suck it, i'll make sure to scare the shit out of you when you're on my plane.

[dbaz]

I personally dont care that a race dominates a majority of the percent of certain colleges/universities. I live in richmond I'm used to it. What does piss me off is the english teachers that mark white people harder than all the other races.

[anti_rice]

And this is why you're racist.

how am i racist? go take a look. go take a walk and see for yourself. I'm purely stating the obvious. Not to mention i've spoken to many of them and ask why they don't find jobs and their response is "cuz i don't want to. Why work when i can get welfare"

I've had this conversation before with caucasian co-workers and they themselves are ashamed of the fact that it's mostly their race who are to lazy to find jobs and like to take advantage of tax payers money.

[Rogue951]

Just cause a comment is about a specific race does not make it racist.
Stereotype maybe.

But in all reality, really do go walk down hastings, there is the occasional asian (east indian, chinese, japanese) but predominantly they are caucasian or native.

There is no hate or discrimination directed from this remark, it is purely an observation.

you guys need to relax and read through before screaming racist.

[GabAlmighty]

you guys need to relax and read through before screaming racist.

RACIST!!!!!!

[MR_BIGGS]

Back when I was in university, some of my friends wouldn't take the more difficult classes in the summer because they thought the curve would be higher. Their thinking was that the keeners were only going to be enrolled.

[Vinny G]

Fuck there were SO many fobs at SFU when I went there. How the hell do all these people get in? I'm just glad I never had a group full of them or else I'd basically be doing a paper by myself.

Too many god damn fatties with copper-coloured hair speaking mandarin and dudes that look like long-haired freaks *shudder*

They should make people who fail the LPI twice do English courses and a university transfer program at a college.

[m!chael]

.

[Spooling]

i agree with the report.

[anti_rice]

Fuck there were SO many fobs at SFU when I went there. How the hell do all these people get in? I'm just glad I never had a group full of them or else I'd basically be doing a paper by myself.

Too many god damn fatties with copper-coloured hair speaking mandarin and dudes that look like long-haired freaks *shudder*

They should make people who fail the LPI twice do English courses and a university transfer program at a college.

and let me guess for some reason this post is not racist??

[Arash]

Arash.

I have lived here my entire life. I went to a "dumb" public school. I guess I was given proper food (joys of having a french mom who likes to cook), and boy did I work and still do work alot. And i'm still successful

I watch alot of tv, game, forumemise (ya, I made Forum into a verb), and for the most part my friends don't go to school and just party (and I party hard with them), I don't study for whatever the fuck a standardized test is. And I still got good grades.

Basically, I've done the opposite of everything you've stated that you need to do in order to not suck at life and I don't suck at life.

Suck it, i'll make sure to scare the shit out of you when you're on my plane.pics or it never happened :p

Also how do you explain what was said about the 90% demographic turn around?
And if you are smart and successful, what are you doing in this loser forum?


<-
*looks forward to many fails :)

[rslater]

Maybe I will get failed maybe I won’t, but here we go. I went to university for my undergraduate (big difference in this opinion if this was a Masters or PHD program) for the whole experience. I did not go to university to achieve exceptionally good grades, nor did I go with the expectation that my degree was going to land me a good job. I chose to go to the University of Victoria for the quintessential university experience of growing up. I think the article is pointing out that many students want the whole experience of university, while it may seem that some Asians are simply going there for only educational purposes. Thus, there are some people who feel that some Asians will not be enhancing their university experience.

Do I relate with the article because I’m white? Partially. I chose Uvic, over UBC because my peers were going to broaden my university experience. I had 18,000 students who were more like minded than me, in comparison to 20,000 Asians who want nothing to do with me at UBC. I'm not racist, nor am I prejudice, but I do believe that those that surround me are important in shaping my experience. I believe that the completely integrated Chinese on this board, those who have lived here their whole lives or for that matter “white washed”, would agree that having a classroom full of newly immigrated, non speaking Chinese do not make the environment as wholesome as you’d wish.

I did happen to graduate with distinctions from Uvic, while the whole time I was having sex, doing drugs, partying. and playing sports, and in hindsite not really caring much about school. All these activities were heightened because of my peers who were on the same mind set as me. I just think the article does not appropriate the real essence of what the study showed.

[bengy]

pics or it never happened :p

Also how do you explain what was said about the 90% demographic turn around?
And if you are smart and successful, what are you doing in this loser forum?
<-
*looks forward to many fails :)

You're an idiot because he never called anyone on this forum a loser.

[Arash]

Re-read my post again, you are mistaken.

To rslater
I believe what the article is saying is that classes with lots of Asians will have a higher standard thus harder tests and none Asian students to get lower marks.

Where in less Asian populated classes, you'd have a better chance to be in the higher end of your class in marks

edit - oh I never read the original article... fail on my part, anyone find it cached?

[bengy]

McLeans took down the article haha

[Wongtouski]

What you said.

........is essentially the cultural difference. For me, I'm one of those caught in the middle type of dudes, I'm raised by not quintessentially traditional Chinese parents, my mom made SURE I went to uni. Personally I'm quite white washed and although I respected good grades, I never studied to a degree that would ensure good grades. After I graduated, I began to see that what you take for the most part in Uni is relatively irrelevant to your future job.

I had a chat with our Financial D (he's English, I work in HK). The difference is clear, Asians just don't have the concept of "enjoying the experience". I have a "theory" on this. I think its partly due to the fact that, Asians in general never had it that good. The modern world is shaped by Western culture and its history, and if you take HK/Chinese as an example, it's only very recently where we've experienced any sort of peace and financial/political stability. What you find in Chinese parents usually is that we in a way live by fear of loss, you go to school to make sure you don't starve, not to "experience". It will take some time before Asians have the privilege and concept to tell their kids to be truly open minded and to "see the world"

[asahai69]

And this is why if you walk down hastings all you see are caucasian homeless people and very rarely do you ever see an homeless asian person.

how am i racist? go take a look. go take a walk and see for yourself. I'm purely stating the obvious. Not to mention i've spoken to many of them and ask why they don't find jobs and their response is "cuz i don't want to. Why work when i can get welfare"

I've had this conversation before with caucasian co-workers and they themselves are ashamed of the fact that it's mostly their race who are to lazy to find jobs and like to take advantage of tax payers money.

yeah. there are definitely arent any poor/homeless people in asia

/sarcasm

[Marco911]

I did happen to graduate with distinctions from Uvic, while the whole time I was having sex, doing drugs, partying. and playing sports, and in hindsite not really caring much about school. All these activities were heightened because of my peers who were on the same mind set as me. I just think the article does not appropriate the real essence of what the study showed.

I'll have a double latte soy to go please.

[Arash]

:D
I think I found the article on another site
http://www.parentcentral.ca/parent/education/article/888368--asian-students-suffering-for-success

edit; nope not it, I did anyone save it?

[MindBomber]

Re-read my post again, you are mistaken.

To rslater
I believe what the article is saying is that classes with lots of Asians will have a higher standard thus harder tests and none Asian students to get lower marks.

Where in less Asian populated classes, you'd have a better chance to be in the higher end of your class in marks

If this is how you interpreted the article, then you seriously need to work on your reading comprehension.

The article specifically refers to students being concerned with not receiving the experience they expect from university, not their concern about about the grading curve being driven up. Classes that Asians supposedly excel have a minimal, if any, grade curve. Succeeding in Math, Physics, Chemistry and Computer Science courses is strictly a matter of how well one understands the material, only in writing courses can the quality of other students work affect the marking of a paper. So, this has nothing to do with them making it more difficult to succeed in courses.
The article is referring to the different experience students receive at universities with a high percentage of Asian students, and yes, the environment is very different. Does that matter though?
The university experience is what an individual makes of it. Its every students choice whether they want to be a bookworm, with a 4.2 gpa, or a party animal whose shared a drink with everyone in their res building, and only has a 2.0 gpa.

[Arash]

:blush: I never read the original article and now its nowhere to be found :(

[MindBomber]

Re-read my post again, you are mistaken.

To rslater
I believe what the article is saying is that classes with lots of Asians will have a higher standard thus harder tests and none Asian students to get lower marks.

Where in less Asian populated classes, you'd have a better chance to be in the higher end of your class in marks

edit - oh I never read the original article... fail on my part, anyone find it cached?

:blush: I never read the original article and now its nowhere to be found :(

If didn't read the article, could you please explain why you felt the need to explain to rslater, who interpreted the article correctly, what it said?

[Marco911]

The problem with top universities in Canada is the admissions requirements. The strongest factor in the admission decision for Canadian universities is your grades. This leads to a complete lack of diversity in the class except for FOBs and shitheads that spend all their waking hours at the library. It also leads to "grade inflation" at the high school level where dumbasses who can't compete in life start getting >3.8 GPAs. Canadian universities are putting out far too many university "graduates" (highest number of graduates in the world) which leads to lowest average income among developed countries for university graduates. We need to redirect these university "graduates" ho can only get jobs at Starbucks making minimum wage to start contributing to the economy by going into vocational training such as carpentry, plumbing, electricians, construction. There is such a high demand for vocational professions that many of these people make ridiculous hourly wages unheard of in the rest of the world. Work at Starbucks with an Arts degree, and get 8/hr. Work as an electrician with fewer years of training and less tuition and make $50/hr. Gee whiz!

I went to an Ivy League university in the East Coast and the admission requirement is far, far stricter. They look at your total achievement in life and ensure that the class is diverse from a racial and social demographic perspective. Ivy leaguers are generally much higher regarded in the work force then graduates of Canadian schools because of this.

[sean_wong]

Arash,

Please go suffocate and die. You are breathing precious air, unworthy of your stupidity and existance.

[Arash]

Right back at you prick

@Marco911
I hear today's degree is worthless too and stricter admission only makes sense only by putting the best forward... which would be FOBs and shitheads that spend all their waking hours at the library.

If didn't read the article, could you please explain why you felt the need to explain to rslater, who interpreted the article correctly, what it said?I didnt read the McLean article, just the one that OP posted. But why do you think not so many none Asians are not stepping it up to take university courses?

[jackmeister]

Those caucasians got beat at their own game. Now they hating.

Last I saw, lots of asians study/work harder, party harder, and more ambitious.

[EmperorIS]

White people are complaining Asian Fobs have no personality.

White people needs to stop whining .. having more asians in university actually makes you white people look better

if you go for an interview at a big corporate company ... and if it was between you and a chinese guy with the exact same credentials i bet 8/10 times they would hire the white guy over him

and imagine this .. you getting in a school filled with asians who are known to be study freaks and u coming out on top .. that actually boosts ur credentials no ?

[Synaptik]

The problem with top universities in Canada is the admissions requirements. The strongest factor in the admission decision for Canadian universities is your grades. This leads to a complete lack of diversity in the class except for FOBs and shitheads that spend all their waking hours at the library. It also leads to "grade inflation" at the high school level where dumbasses who can't compete in life start getting >3.8 GPAs. Canadian universities are putting out far too many university "graduates" (highest number of graduates in the world) which leads to lowest average income among developed countries for university graduates. We need to redirect these university "graduates" ho can only get jobs at Starbucks making minimum wage to start contributing to the economy by going into vocational training such as carpentry, plumbing, electricians, construction. There is such a high demand for vocational professions that many of these people make ridiculous hourly wages unheard of in the rest of the world. Work at Starbucks with an Arts degree, and get 8/hr. Work as an electrician with fewer years of training and less tuition and make $50/hr. Gee whiz!



its not the hardcore studying high GPA kids that are working minimum wage.

its those party kids that coast though high school with barely a B and pick poli sci or history that end up at starbucks. these people are the ones that cheapen university degrees.

and you know what? they're mostly non-asians.

[MindBomber]

I didnt read the McLean article, just the one that OP posted. But why do you think not so many none Asians are not stepping it up to take university courses?

You didn't read the Macleans article, and you commented on what you thought it was about.

Most young Asian people choose to go to university, but very few enter technical school. Do Asians not apply to vocational schools, because they're afraid of the competition? Of course not. The majority of Asians aspire to careers that require a university education, hence the high number of Asian university students. Many Caucasians prefer vocational careers, and as a result there are more of them pursuing technical certificates.

I'm in university, and I've never had the slightest concern that the scholastic success of other students would result in my courses becoming more difficult. Also, I work, I have a social life and I maintain a 4.1 gpa, its not just shit-heads who spend all there time in the library who succeed.

[SkinnyPupp]

Yeah you hardly see any asians working at Starbucks

[Arash]

You didn't read the Macleans article, and you commented on what you thought it was about.


I blame the OP for not linking to the original article :p, It looks like a summery of it and if you read that alone its as if the Asians are taking all the good grades away because they only study in life, not because of the university experience.

Most young Asian people choose to go to university, but very few enter technical school. Do Asians not apply to vocational schools, because they're afraid of the competition? Of course not. The majority of Asians aspire to careers that require a university education, hence the high number of Asian university students. Many Caucasians prefer vocational careers, and as a result there are more of them pursue technical certificates.

I'm in university, and I've never had the slightest concern that the scholastic success of other students would result in my courses becoming more difficult. Also, I work, I have a social life and I maintain a 4.1 gpa, its not just shit-heads who spend all there time in the library who succeed.So you think the majority of Caucasians dont have the ambitions to acquire high end jobs? Is this because studying hard in their youth is seen as wasting the best times of your life.. or is it an environmental factor like their up bringing and or a dumbing down with culture?

[scottsman]

This article is so ridiculous i expected it to come from the States. Not sure what people have to gripe about, most of my friends are Asian and they party their asses off.

As the Asian families start to become 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generation Canadians they will adapt more to a "Canadian Culture." as an example when Asians started to come to Richmond in masses was around when I was starting Highschool. The football team got cut b/c there werent enough white people to play but that paved the way for badminton and ping pong.

Not to mention a lot of friends studied/partied in Highschool and Uni and then moved back to HK to work. Where they still work hard and play hard.

[Marco911]

its not the hardcore studying high GPA kids that are working minimum wage.

its those party kids that coast though high school with barely a B and pick poli sci or history that end up at starbucks. these people are the ones that cheapen university degrees.

and you know what? they're mostly non-asians.

True. The "hardcore" Asians who barely speak a lick of English yet get good grades in Math and Science don't work at Starbucks. In fact they don't work anywhere in Canada because they can't find jobs in Canada.

They have to come back to Asia to work.

[EmperorIS]

True. The "hardcore" Asians who barely speak a lick of English yet get good grades in Math and Science don't work at Starbucks. In fact they don't work anywhere in Canada because they can't find jobs in Canada.

They have to come back to Asia to work.

they don't speak english yet they get in universities and get good grades in a english spoken school..
what are the people who were born here and speaks the language's excuse?

[goo3]

Math and Science geeks get technical jobs where soft skills are secondary and sometimes not even considered. Eg.. if you write code all day, your English needs to be adequate, not good. Having both is ideal, but it tends to work better than the other way around.

Think of it this way.. you might not think they're social or fun to be around and you're probably right, but they think they're social and they have fun being around each other.

[4444]

that's so stupid, i went to UBC, did economics & accounting, the most asian of all subjects and i normally came in top 5-10% of students... and i worked enough to pull in enough to pay FULLY for my education, + i was never single during uni, so i had to make time for a woman...

shit ain't hard if you're not an idiot... guess the ones who use this excuse are just that

on teh flip side, i did hate feeling like an outcast b/c i don't speak mandarin or cantonese - that has to change, we live in canada, and have 2 official languages, english & french, universities should mandate those languages as spoken in common areas (if i went to china, i'd try my best to communicate in the native language... maybe i have too much respect for hte country i'm in?)

[Meowjin]

White people are complaining Asian Fobs have no personality.

White people needs to stop whining .. having more asians in university actually makes you white people look better

if you go for an interview at a big corporate company ... and if it was between you and a chinese guy with the exact same credentials i bet 8/10 times they would hire the white guy over him

and imagine this .. you getting in a school filled with asians who are known to be study freaks and u coming out on top .. that actually boosts ur credentials no ?

go fuck yourself you dumb idiot.

[MindBomber]

I blame the OP for not linking to the original article :p, It looks like a summery of it and if you read that alone its as if the Asians are taking all the good grades away because they only study in life, not because of the university experience.

So you think the majority of Caucasians dont have the ambitions to acquire high end jobs? Is this because studying hard in their youth is seen as wasting the best times of your life.. or is it an environmental factor like their up bringing and or a dumbing down with culture?

I didn't say anything about Caucasians not having the ambition to acquire high end jobs; I said, a larger majority of Caucasians prefer vocational jobs in comparison to Asians. A contractor with a vocational degree is by no means a person entitled to less respect, when compared to an individual with a degree in commerce. The skill set required to perform either job is immense as are the financial rewards, but they are very different styles of work. Asians, as a result of their environmental influences, generally prefer the style of work accompanying a university degree, so more Asians attend university.

[deep87]

Looks like the toronto star did a similiar article about asian kids being forced to go to school and I guess Macleans took theirs down too.
Anyways heres a link to the reposted article. (didnt know whether is should paste the whole article or not)

http://www.ehdtstudios.com/2010/11/too-asian-canada-macleansca.html

[Wongtouski]

on teh flip side, i did hate feeling like an outcast b/c i don't speak mandarin or cantonese - that has to change, we live in canada, and have 2 official languages, english & french, universities should mandate those languages as spoken in common areas (if i went to china, i'd try my best to communicate in the native language... maybe i have too much respect for hte country i'm in?)

Agree with what you said, cuz if you went to China now and you spoke non Mandarin, and you make no effort to at least try, locals would not respect you. That's the gripe I have with hongers IN UBC. I mean its natural for people who are similar to be grouped together, but a lot of them make absolutely no effort to speak English at all.

[Arash]

I didn't say anything about Caucasians not having the ambition to acquire high end jobs; I said, a larger majority of Caucasians prefer vocational jobs in comparison to Asians. A contractor with a vocational degree is by no means a person entitled to less respect, when compared to an individual with a degree in commerce. The skill set required to perform either job is immense as are the financial rewards, but they are very different styles of work. Asians, as a result of their environmental influences, generally prefer the style of work accompanying a university degree, so more Asians attend university.
A professor, doctor, engineer, architect and lawyer get more respect and status then any vocational degree.

I agree with Wongtouski's post (#61) for why Asians prefer the style of work accompanying a university degree, but for Canadians, I believe Hollywood's transition from Oxford Blues to American Pie is one of the main reasons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPhECBeUfFw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcCxc5ZAX80

[GabAlmighty]

Rslater, agreed with your first post there. The degree has become the new High School diploma, hence why I plan on doing my masters at some point and from a "reputable" school so that my piece of paper looks good.
















And....











http://metamathics.org/denny/fuck_this_shit.jpeg

[tegz]

lol, I have a theory that UBC doesn't want to give all their spots to asian fobs, example being the large emphasis on UBC BCom supplemental, and med school supplemental applications as opposed to grades. These application methods successfully weed out those antisocial asian people that just study 24/7 and give a more "fair" chance to those who've been doing other stuff such as volunteering, playing sports rather than focusing just on studying.

[Lomac]

Correct me if I'm wrong but vocational jobs are considered in China to be the work of "lesser people," no? If so, that's very likely why most Asians tend to shy away from those sort of jobs because they fear the stigma that may be attached to them and the loss of respect from their peers.

I went to University but never with the intention of graduating at the top 5% of my class mainly because in order to continue my career path, I needed that $10,000 piece of paper stating that I knew what I was doing, despite the fact that I had already proven to my coworkers and bosses that I was more than capable of my job. However, when I was in school I noticed that the Asian portion of my class were the ones that acted in the standard stereotype - they studied long and hard and never mingled with those outside of their race - yet everyone else of other races hung out with one another, regardless of if they were white Canadian or brown Italian. The cliques really separated the classes. Not only that, most of us managed to pull off the same grades that the Asian kids did, despite partying to two in the morning the day before a test. It's not that we were in easy courses, it's just that we knew the difference between focusing your life on studying and mixing school with fun. And that's where I believe the article catches a good point - University has a stigma attached to it, deserved or not, of being a fun place to be. Most people go because they want to make something of themselves, yet they also want to be able to let loose every once in a while. However, they feel that with a higher percentage of studious students that fun aspect will disappear. It's not that they're being racist against Asians (the word Asian could just as easily be changed to white Christians if they had a similar mentality), they just want to be able to go to a school where the majority of students aren't anti-fun.

As for the comment about international students taking spots from local kids... well, I have a couple comments about that. First off, schools can make a shit load more money off of an international student (think upwards to 3-4 times as much), so of course they're going to milk that cow for what it's worth. Secondly, the requirements for international students aren't always necessarily as high. When I was considering a career change, I applied for a very prestigious school in England. Now, my grades weren't fantastic (they definitely were lower than a 3.98gpa), but they weren't what you'd consider terrible as well. Despite this, I was accepted into this school without even an interview. It was quite obvious they simply wanted my money since while they could take in a student from London for around $5000/semester, they would be sucking me dry at the rate of $20,000/semester. Ouch.

I think some people are reading too much into the article.

[MindBomber]

A professor, doctor, engineer, architect and lawyer get more respect and status then any vocational degree.

I agree with Wongtouski's post (#61) for why Asians prefer the style of work accompanying a university degree, but for Canadians, I believe Hollywood's transition from Oxford Blues to American Pie is one of the main reasons.


Keep this in mind when you read my post. When I began university I was doing pre-med, and now I'm planning on becoming a professor. I have no bias to argue against those professions.

No one commits a decade of their lives to become a doctor, engineer, architect, lawyer or professor, because they want respect and status; people choose those careers for personal fulfillment and the financial rewards. The respect and status those professions receive is almost entirely within their own fields. When was the last time you read about Calum Mechie's brilliant insights, on George Orwell? Never. Thats, because profs don't get that much respect outside of their given fields. Successful people with vocational degrees, are entitled to and receive a nearly equivalent amount of respect to someone with a university degree, since respect is primarily given within fields.
The respect given by society is what your referring to, and that has fuck all to do with what letters you have behind your name. That respect has to do with the car you drive, the size of your house and where you live.

[TRDood]

I am not going to comment on university admission practices or student preferences as they vary across different people.

One observation is that Canadian schools are absorbing a lot of foreign talent. I am talking about graduate degrees. At SFU, 1st = Chinese, 2nd = Iranians...
Only about 8 of 30 students in my year are Canadian citizens. Of course, top GPA of the class is a Chinese girl. Do I care? No. Am I discouraged to study because a machine from China will always beat me? Not really, as long as I try my best to be the better than average.
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[bcedhk]

True. The "hardcore" Asians who barely speak a lick of English yet get good grades in Math and Science don't work at Starbucks. In fact they don't work anywhere in Canada because they can't find jobs in Canada.

They have to come back to Asia to work.


In the end, you will get the majority of these FOBS going back to China to work for small/mid size companies since they lack english skills and real life skills. On the other hand you will get a handful who will work their asses off in English and career development and achieve high income for big firms like PWC/Google/Honda.

On the other hand, you will have a bunch of gwai lo's who will continue to blame and bitch about how asians took their spot for going to university and making themselves feel better by saying college is cheaper. On the other hand, your gonna get a small handful of hard working gwai lo's that will beat most of their asian counterparts in getting great jobs because they have excellent English and work experience.

[MindBomber]

I am not going to comment on university admission practices or student preferences as they vary across different people.

One observation is that Canadian schools are absorbing a lot of foreign talent. I am talking about graduate degrees. At SFU, 1st = Chinese, 2nd = Iranians...
Only about 8 of 30 students in my year are Canadian citizens. Of course, top GPA of the class is a Chinese girl. Do I care? No. Am I discouraged to study because a machine from China will always beat me? Not really, as long as I try my best to be the better than average.
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I'm exactly the same way.
If I only get 80% on a midterm, but I was as well prepared as possible, I'm satisfied.
If I only get 80%, and I wasn't prepared for it, because I partied all weekend, I'll be pissed at myself!

I could care less if I'm in the top or bottom 5% of my class, as long as I do my best.

[bengy]

On the other hand, you will have a bunch of gwai lo's who will continue to blame and bitch about how asians took their spot for going to university and making themselves feel better by saying college is cheaper. On the other hand, your gonna get a small handful of hard working gwai lo's that will beat most of their asian counterparts in getting great jobs because they have excellent English and work experience.

University doesn't guarantee you a career. College is actually something you can take and have a job ready for you when you graduate. And how the fuck do you get "excellent work experience" right out of college / university???? Do you even have post secondary education???

[Lomac]

University doesn't guarantee you a career. College is actually something you can take and have a job ready for you when you graduate. And how the fuck do you get "excellent work experience" right out of college / university???? Do you even have post secondary education???

He didn't state "right out of college." And besides, I imagine he meant that because they have better language skills, they'll be more easily employable, hence a better chance at gaining real life work experience in their chosen profession.

[bcedhk]

by work experience I mean working P/T and co-ops. "how the fuck" do you get a job ready for you after college? Are you implying during your graduation an employer is gonna be waiting for you to come in and work for them? LOL

And yes, university doesn't guarantee a career, but you can say the same any other schools. There was an article about how there are thousands of janitors with PH.D degrees, but does that mean anything? Nope.

University gives you greater oppertunites for bigger companies... when do you ever see the big 4 accounting firms recruiting at VCC? probably never.

[will068]

I am not going to comment on university admission practices or student preferences as they vary across different people.

One observation is that Canadian schools are absorbing a lot of foreign talent. I am talking about graduate degrees. At SFU, 1st = Chinese, 2nd = Iranians...
Only about 8 of 30 students in my year are Canadian citizens. Of course, top GPA of the class is a Chinese girl. Do I care? No. Am I discouraged to study because a machine from China will always beat me? Not really, as long as I try my best to be the better than average.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

Reminds me of how Ivy league schools capping the admissions for non US citizens.

[dachinesedude]

Sure post-secondary education does not guarantee you will get a good job, but it opens more doors and which one you walk through depends on yourself

I think the most important thing on getting a good job is networking. Its soooo much easier to get a job if someone refers you into it. Don't matter if you have experience or what not, NETWORK.

[rslater]

I'll have a double latte soy to go please.

I own my own business.

[SkinnyPupp]

Haha major pwnage

[LiquidTurbo]

Macleans being trolls, or trying to boost readership I think.

[TheKingdom2000]

That MacLeans article was really interesting, some parts of it are so true too

If it is scientifically proven that Asians are smarter than others, then they can complain. But there is no such thing, so what are they ranting about? Blaming Asians for their own lack of determination, they're just fucking lazy to work hard and are afraid of a little competition

If they think its hard to get into a university here in Canada, they should really visit Asia

Umm even if it were scientifically proven what does that matter?
black men/woman have more muscle mass than any other race. That is a fact. It's not fair, but no one really complains.

Besides, I don't care if you're black white yellow or green. If you're the best at what you do, I want your services. I don't want a doctor who only knows 60% of his/her shit. So if on average ill have an asian MD then so be it.

Though it's not that asians are smarter which is why there are more asians at UBC. It's just that there are so many more of us I feel in vancouver. Ie. Say 1/5 kids are going to university. And in vancouver there are 10,000 asians who graduate and only 2000 white kids that graduate (not that white kids don't graduate, just that there is a higher asian population which merits the higher graduation rate) so the absolute number of asians going to UBC is higher. But, the % from each population that goes to UBC is the same it's just the number from each population is different
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[TheKingdom2000]

And this is why if you walk down hastings all you see are caucasian homeless people and very rarely do you ever see an homeless asian person.

This is true. Honestly, imo asians are harder working on average. At every job I've had, the white people barely work. At VCH all the immigrants that were there bust their ass. Not just asians, all the immigrants. But, the caucasian workers seem to just chill and take their time doing the work. This is what I've noticed.

I think the reason why you don't see homeless asian people as often is because even if they can't find a job they'll at least be digging for those cans.
I don't see an asian just sitting around doing nth.
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[Meowjin]

it's called opium lounges. Oh wait.

[MindBomber]

This is true. Honestly, imo asians are harder working on average. At every job I've had, the white people barely work. At VCH all the immigrants that were there bust their ass. Not just asians, all the immigrants. But, the caucasian workers seem to just chill and take their time doing the work. This is what I've noticed.

I think the reason why you don't see homeless asian people as often is because even if they can't find a job they'll at least be digging for those cans.
I don't see an asian just sitting around doing nth.
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Have you considered that its generally not the impoverished Asians, with a poor upbringing and genetic pre-dispositions for drug and alcohol abuse that can afford to emigrate. Whereas its that segment of the Canadian population that is most likely to be shooting up on hastings. Its those Asians who have at least comfortable finances or a good education, who come to Canada. I'm pretty sure a lower percentage of Asian teens in Asia drive GR-1s than in Canada.

[Hondaracer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLni3wbndls

[twitchyzero]

this is why i'm againist BC secondary schools opting out of provincial exams. There is no standardizing exams which can account for grade inflation which will just drive up admission averages. It's pretty bullshit that sketchy private colleges can hand out inflated grades for those overseas Chinese student. The only thing really stopping these folks is the LPI. I also see out-of-province students getting in pretty easy too since they don't have a standardized admission.

and quite honestly my experience at UBC is that those that can't speak fluent English generally don't make up a huge percentage of an undergrad class. For MBA/Grad school it's different IMO.

When i entered university few years ago the average was already 90%. It's hard to believe that it's probably going up a little higher now that the provincial exams are gone.

[Brianrietta]

I'm exactly the same way.
If I only get 80% on a midterm, but I was as well prepared as possible, I'm satisfied.
If I only get 80%, and I wasn't prepared for it, because I partied all weekend, I'll be pissed at myself!

I could care less if I'm in the top or bottom 5% of my class, as long as I do my best.

See, when I get 80% on a midterm because I partied all weekend and wasn't prepared for it, I throw another fucking party to celebrate not getting 50% on it.

Personally, I couldn't care less what my grades are provided I'm somewhere in the top 35% of the class. So long as I am continuing to make the contacts and develop the relationships that I'll need once I'm back out in the workforce again, I'm content.

[Sid Vicious]

an education is what YOU make out of it

there are unsuccessful highly educated people and vice versa. the variable here is a person's own determination

but i doubt many socially retarded people will be successful

[bcedhk]

this is why i'm againist BC secondary schools opting out of provincial exams. There is no standardizing exams which can account for grade inflation which will just drive up admission averages. It's pretty bullshit that sketchy private colleges can hand out inflated grades for those overseas Chinese student. The only thing really stopping these folks is the LPI. I also see out-of-province students getting in pretty easy too since they don't have a standardized admission.

and quite honestly my experience at UBC is that those that can't speak fluent English generally don't make up a huge percentage of an undergrad class. For MBA/Grad school it's different IMO.

When i entered university few years ago the average was already 90%. It's hard to believe that it's probably going up a little higher now that the provincial exams are gone.


the best option for universities is for every faculty to not just look at grades, but to review also community involvement, work experience, and extra curricular activities. But thats impossible to do because universities do not have the man power to do so, plus they probably wont give a shit what kind of students they take. As long as they get $ (especially from international students) , thats all they care about.... When they have $$, they can hire and bring in well-known profs and researchers to their school and stand out (e.g. UBC).

Just look at SFU, they are willing to invite international students with a 2.5CGPA average, thats like a C+ which is soooo easy to accomplish if you finish your HW and study a bit for exams....

[jigga250]

how am i racist? go take a look. go take a walk and see for yourself. I'm purely stating the obvious. Not to mention i've spoken to many of them and ask why they don't find jobs and their response is "cuz i don't want to. Why work when i can get welfare"

I've had this conversation before with caucasian co-workers and they themselves are ashamed of the fact that it's mostly their race who are to lazy to find jobs and like to take advantage of tax payers money.

Maybe thats because you're in CANADA!?!? Do you think the country is going to go out of its way to attract homeless chinese immigrants?:rofl:

I don't mind all the try-hards who spend all their time studying, trying to get the best grades. In the real world, grades aren't everything and MANY companies value social skills and ability to work with others just as much or more than what marks you got.

Straight A's may get you the interview, but when they realize you have no communication skills, or life experience outside of studying alone in your basement, good luck getting the job.

[drunkrussian]

i'm not even sure it's an asian thing, so much as an immigrant thing. I'm not talking about the top grades, but rather the mindset - of getting your bang for your buck. I found it was usually the people born here, who are generational canadians, and who want this whole "good time experience" and don't really give a shit about grades and major in General Studies. The rest of us still wanna have fun, but we know that ultimately we're there for a degree.

If u wanna blow tens of thousands of dollars on just having a good time, University's not the best choice.

[bengy]

by work experience I mean working P/T and co-ops. "how the fuck" do you get a job ready for you after college? Are you implying during your graduation an employer is gonna be waiting for you to come in and work for them? LOL

And yes, university doesn't guarantee a career, but you can say the same any other schools. There was an article about how there are thousands of janitors with PH.D degrees, but does that mean anything? Nope.

University gives you greater oppertunites for bigger companies... when do you ever see the big 4 accounting firms recruiting at VCC? probably never.

Actually yes, my employer came and recruited a bunch of us at BCIT.

[Arash]

. No one commits a decade of their lives to become a doctor, engineer, architect, lawyer or professor, because they want respect and status; people choose those careers for personal fulfillment and the financial rewards. The respect and status those professions receive is almost entirely within their own fields.

....

The respect given by society is what your referring to, and that has fuck all to do with what letters you have behind your name. That respect has to do with the car you drive, the size of your house and where you live.Nicely said, I think you answered the question in this thread.

[yohoho]

I guess i better step up my game if i want to win against these other asians

[TouringTeg]

We are all competing on a global scale. Compete or be left behind.

[twitchyzero]

the best option for universities is for every faculty to not just look at grades, but to review also community involvement, work experience, and extra curricular activities. But thats impossible to do because universities do not have the man power to do so, plus they probably wont give a shit what kind of students they take.

Excellent point. imagine going over 8,000 to 10,000 supplemental applications a year in a 3 months span.

and quite honestly people will just exaggerate their hours or attend one single meeting and put it in their app unless they request reference letter to all activities.

[Marco911]

I own my own business.

While I do respect entrepreneuralism, you just proved my point - it was better for you to work for yourself than your next best alternative (Starbucks?)

[Marco911]

Excellent point. imagine going over 8,000 to 10,000 supplemental applications a year in a 3 months span.

and quite honestly people will just exaggerate their hours or attend one single meeting and put it in their app unless they request reference letter to all activities.

Admission dept resources are not an issue. Top American universities charge a couple of hundred $ for application fees. You gotta pay to play.

[Marco911]

We are all competing on a global scale. Compete or be left behind.

You assume that the world works based on pure meritocracy. It does not.

[PiuYi]

this is why i'm againist BC secondary schools opting out of provincial exams. There is no standardizing exams which can account for grade inflation which will just drive up admission averages. It's pretty bullshit that sketchy private colleges can hand out inflated grades for those overseas Chinese student. The only thing really stopping these folks is the LPI. I also see out-of-province students getting in pretty easy too since they don't have a standardized admission.

When i entered university few years ago the average was already 90%. It's hard to believe that it's probably going up a little higher now that the provincial exams are gone.

theres no provincial exams anymore?~?~ whattt theeee fuckkkkkkkkkkkk

[MindBomber]

Admission dept resources are not an issue. Top American universities charge a couple of hundred $ for application fees. You gotta pay to play.

When I left high school I applied to UBC, SFU and UVic, so I wouldn't need to worry about not getting in somewhere. At $50 for each school that wasn't an issue, but if each school was $250 it would have been.
Finances should never be a barrier to receiving an education, and for many people they already are; raising tuition rates or fees is not an answer to any problem.

[MindBomber]

theres no provincial exams anymore?~?~ whattt theeee fuckkkkkkkkkkkk

There are provincials, but they're optional.

[Jun_Y]

ok, here's my 2 cents into this. I graduated high school early had pretty good grades considering i even slept through half of one of my provincials and still passed it.

All the people that complain or bitch and whine about UBC being a school of a billion chinese kids taking over the population in school are a mix of canadian chinese and international chinese from china or hong kong. Yes, the fact that they pay more the schools are more than welcome those who pay more to go attend at their institution like any other place weather it may be BCIT or UBC or SFU or even any other college. The fact is, and I'm not being racist because i'm half chinese myself, is that chinese way of thinking is the "image" of their kids. And all you chinese folks out there don't lie cuz you know its true when I say that your mom and dad want to brag to other parents or family and others that their son or daughter is a University grad from who the hell cares and so you're educated and even if you hold a degree you can still be a dumb ass with no common sense. With that piece of paper stating you're a graduate, doesn't mean that they'll find a good career since a job requires you to be a self sufficient worker and blah blah blah with people skills as well as wait for it.................................ENGLISH!!!!!

These "skills" aren't in a book that can be studied which is why they won't contribute to society THAT much.

I know guys at work who barely speak the english language and are probably soon to be on the cutting block because they just don't get it and have little skill YET they have a piece of paper saying they could do the job. But in the end, it comes down to you can do it or you can't.

[Jgresch]

Actually, reading a post a couple pages back just now brought something to mind.... I have nothing against any race, in fact I have a lot of close friends that are azn, brown and black, and I also don't mind being in a school full of non-white people.

But what does actually piss me off, is peer editing a girls work in my class who has worse spelling and grammar skills than my cat. It is obvious some people have a terribly hard time with english, and if they want to take a job dealing with people eventually, how the fuck are they going to succeed?

IMO, if you are going to an English based school, you should need to take a couple years practicing before applying. I actually feel bad knowing a lot of the people aren't understanding the material in the courses because of the language barrier. I'm sure they are very smart, but without the English skills they are going to have a hard time getting some places.

[CP.AR]

I wanted to leave this comment on the website comment box but I know it will be rejected almost right away

WHO THE FUCK CARES

The issue they need to address is the fact that most people (at least in my classes), don't even speak proper English anymore. Universities ANYWHERE need to make sure they admit students who at least know the official language used in the University itself.

at least speak the damn language right?

What pisses me off the most is that most students nowadays, they approach me (I'm Chinese - Cantonese to be exact), and speak in Mandarin IMMEDIATELY. I mean, I know I'm Chinese at all, but for myself, out of respect for all those around me, I was taught to always approach another person first in English, then proceed onto whatever language you choose. that DOES NOT happen anymore, and if you don't speak Mandarin, you are generally excluded from that group (especially girls). I'm not against you speaking in your own language or anything... but yeah... ridiculous.

[Jgresch]

^damn you for taking this thread to the next pg so nobody sees my comment, but you basically summed up what I was trying to get at.

[Mr.C]

http://www.news1130.com/news/local/article/127235--report-students-avoid-colleges-they-think-are-too-asian

intellectual cowards scared of a little competition

might as well save your college money and go do something else because in real society competition is even more fierce

It's not horrible new, actually. What would society be without unskilled labor, or crappy skilled labor?

Actually, reading a post a couple pages back just now brought something to mind.... I have nothing against any race, in fact I have a lot of close friends that are azn, brown and black, and I also don't mind being in a school full of non-white people.

But what does actually piss me off, is peer editing a girls work in my class who has worse spelling and grammar skills than my cat. It is obvious some people have a terribly hard time with english, and if they want to take a job dealing with people eventually, how the fuck are they going to succeed?

IMO, if you are going to an English based school, you should need to take a couple years practicing before applying. I actually feel bad knowing a lot of the people aren't understanding the material in the courses because of the language barrier. I'm sure they are very smart, but without the English skills they are going to have a hard time getting some places.

Agreed. That's one of the oddities of this country. I am an non-white, non-asian, and I damn well better read and write in English, because I live in an English speaking country. If I didn't want to, I'd be better off going back home.

[MindBomber]

^Now people will see your comment.

Actually, reading a post a couple pages back just now brought something to mind.... I have nothing against any race, in fact I have a lot of close friends that are azn, brown and black, and I also don't mind being in a school full of non-white people.

But what does actually piss me off, is peer editing a girls work in my class who has worse spelling and grammar skills than my cat. It is obvious some people have a terribly hard time with english, and if they want to take a job dealing with people eventually, how the fuck are they going to succeed?

IMO, if you are going to an English based school, you should need to take a couple years practicing before applying. I actually feel bad knowing a lot of the people aren't understanding the material in the courses because of the language barrier. I'm sure they are very smart, but without the English skills they are going to have a hard time getting some places.

My second year English class got our midterms back yesterday, and only myself and two other people scored above an 80%. Its like an 8th grade English class, with 2 year material.

[Marco911]

When I left high school I applied to UBC, SFU and UVic, so I wouldn't need to worry about not getting in somewhere. At $50 for each school that wasn't an issue, but if each school was $250 it would have been.
Finances should never be a barrier to receiving an education, and for many people they already are; raising tuition rates or fees is not an answer to any problem.

There is free education available to everyone - it's called the public library and it's far cheaper than university. Funny how universities seem to be full of people and public libraries comparatively empty. People such as yourself really want a piece of paper that gives you an expectation of higher future income but you expect the rest of society to pay your way through.

If you want to get to a top university, for the most part, you should have to pay your way for the true cost of education while you're there. Subsidies should only go to the best students selected on the basis of a wide range of factors that predict their future contributions to society.

Canada subsidizes university education because the thinking goes that graduates earn higher salaries and that means more tax revenues. It seems like investing in many student's higher education today is a bad investment. Graduates barely make enough income to pay for their already massively subsidized student loans much less become worthwhile tax payers.

Instead a university degree should be available to fewer elite students, which will increase the value of a degree and increase wages and employment prospects for graduates. The people who don't make the cut will be redirected to occupations that have a shortage of people such as nursing, cooking and the trades. The increase in supply of people to these professions will drive down wages for trades back to a more reasonable level. There is something seriously wrong when many people in the trades that don't own their own business can earn six figure salaries, while the average income for undergraduates is $45K/yr. There needs to be better balance between blue-collar and white-collar work.

[MindBomber]

There is free education available to everyone - it's called the public library and it's far cheaper than university. Funny how universities seem to be full of people and public libraries comparatively empty. People such as yourself really want a piece of paper that gives you an expectation of higher future income but you expect the rest of society to pay your way through.

If you want to get to a top university, for the most part, you should have to pay your way for the true cost of education while you're there. Subsidies should only go to the best students selected on the basis of a wide range of factors that predict their future contributions to society.

Canada subsidizes university education because the thinking goes that graduates earn higher salaries and that means more tax revenues. It seems like investing in many student's higher education today is a bad investment. Graduates barely make enough income to pay for their already massively subsidized student loans much less become worthwhile tax payers.

Instead a university degree should be available to fewer elite students, which will increase the value of a degree and increase wages and employment prospects for graduates. The people who don't make the cut will be redirected to occupations that have a shortage of people such as nursing, cooking and the trades. The increase in supply of people to these professions will drive down wages for trades back to a more reasonable level. There is something seriously wrong when many people in the trades that don't own their own business can earn six figure salaries, while the average income for undergraduates is $45K/yr. There needs to be better balance between blue-collar and white-collar work.

University students hardly expect society to fund thier educations; To imply they do is not only a completely unsupportable statement, but unaware of the realities of life as a student. Even top students with scholarships would not be able to afford an education without government for subsidies, unless they accepted crippling student loan debt. Very few, if any, students enroll in their degree programs with the their future increasing their potential future salaries in mind. As you stated, many graduates with Bachelor of Arts degrees do not find a job in their given fields. We don't live under rocks, we know that. Students enroll in school for the experience, enlightenment and personal fulfillment they gain from an education; if monetary success was their prime concern, they would have enrolled in a vocational school and secured the six figure salaries you mentioned.

If you believe that university degrees should be reserved for elite students with the highest probable contributions to society, I'd like to inform you of the existence of graduate degrees. A university degree where only students with a 3.8gpa or higher are considered, and likely future contributions are factors in the admissions process. Also, to become a RN requires a Bachelors of Science in Nursing, and thats one of the most competitive degree programs at any university.

People like you, with your innate desire to prevent others from bettering themselves, because of your fear that you won't be able to compete with their superior skills, should be sources of both great pity and detest. A world without such extreme ignorance, would be a much better place to live.

[m4k4v4li]

Have you considered that its generally not the impoverished Asians, with a poor upbringing and genetic pre-dispositions for drug and alcohol abuse that can afford to emigrate. Whereas its that segment of the Canadian population that is most likely to be shooting up on hastings. Its those Asians who have at least comfortable finances or a good education, who come to Canada.

you are ultimately a product of your environment.
the article itself is a fucking embarrasment and just demonstrates how privileged we are when "university life" is a factor in "deciding" which post-sec institute to attend.

[m4k4v4li]

it's called opium lounges. Oh wait.

what are we in the 1800s? you're comparing modern day lazy asians to those who were victims of british colonialism? how about vap lounge where people make the conscious decision to be lazy and blaze? (nothing wrong with that)

a little different from whole cities being addicted to a substance that was forced in through mandatory unrestricted "trade"

[Marco911]

University students hardly expect society to fund thier educations; To imply they do is not only a completely unsupportable statement, but unaware of the realities of life as a student.

I didn't make an unsupportable statement. You stated that, "raising tuition rates or fees is not the answer to any problem," which implied that you expected society to make up the difference in your tuition cost. You, meanwhile, make the unsupportable statements: "Realities of life as a student" is hardly an argument. Where are education subsidies coming from, if not from tax payers?

Not only can you not figure out simple economics, it seems like reading comprehension isn't your strong point either.


Even top students with scholarships would not be able to afford an education if it without government for subsidies, unless they accepted crippling student loan debt.

There you go with your feeling of entitlement once again, which only proves my point. You'd rather someone else pay for your education than take on personal "crippling student loan debt." Why are you so unwilling to pay for the true cost of your education?


As you stated, many graduates with Bachelor of Arts degrees do not find a job in their given fields. We don't live under rocks, we know that. Students enroll in school for the experience, enlightenment and personal fulfillment they gain from an education; if monetary success was their prime concern, they would have enrolled in a vocational school and secured the six figure salaries you mentioned.

If you had to pay the true cost of your education, perhaps you wouldn't sit on your ass and feel entitled to "the experience, enlightenment and personal fulfillment." If you had to pay the true cost of your education, you'd realize that it made poor financial sense. Rather than get a useless Arts degree like thousands of other students with Arts degree that flood the job market every year, you might instead have to become a plumber. Unfortunately, society is burdened with having to pay for your education, while you admit that there isn't much of a financial return in it. And when my plumbing breaks, I have to wait hours for some asshole to show up and charge $200 to fix a leaking pipe.

People like you, with your innate desire to prevent others from bettering themselves, because of your fear that you won't be able to compete with their superior skills, should be sources of both great pity and detest. A world without such extreme ignorance, would be a much better place to live.

Learning the skills necessary to become my plumber is bettering yourself and is definitely bettering society since we are short of tradesmen. Recall, I went to an Ivy League school, so people of my ilk can do all the thinking and white collar work that society needs. Witness the fact that you have an Arts degree and can hardly out-debate me on this topic. I want a world where there are fewer Arts degree holders, but the ones that exist are a breed that is smarter, more informed and more literate than the mass of peons waving their society funded B.As and whining about not being able to find employment. These are the same people that feel too proud to take up trade jobs and occupations, which are more suited to their marginal intellectual capabilities so they end up in the civil service and are a further burden on tax payers.

Do you think it is fair that a plumber who never went to university, that works hard and is in a high income tax bracket as a result, should be forced to pay high taxes on his income so your ass could be in school for "personal fulfillment"? That, in my opinion, should be the source of great pity and detest.

[Nightwalker]

.

[tofu1413]

I wanted to leave this comment on the website comment box but I know it will be rejected almost right away

WHO THE FUCK CARES

The issue they need to address is the fact that most people (at least in my classes), don't even speak proper English anymore. Universities ANYWHERE need to make sure they admit students who at least know the official language used in the University itself.

at least speak the damn language right?

What pisses me off the most is that most students nowadays, they approach me (I'm Chinese - Cantonese to be exact), and speak in Mandarin IMMEDIATELY. I mean, I know I'm Chinese at all, but for myself, out of respect for all those around me, I was taught to always approach another person first in English, then proceed onto whatever language you choose. that DOES NOT happen anymore, and if you don't speak Mandarin, you are generally excluded from that group (especially girls). I'm not against you speaking in your own language or anything... but yeah... ridiculous.



and usually the hotter ones speak mando... :(

im in the same shoes. im canto. i barely understand mando, let alone speak it.

[no_clue]

I do agree that a person who JUST gets a Bachelors/Master/Ph.D in a liberal arts field is useless and generally caucasian but I do respect the people who get it as a stepping stone to further enhance their education such as law school or CA designation. I know one person who got into med school with a B.A.

[Elements604]

The problem is we are letting too much of one race into the province. I thought Canada was supposed to be multicultural but it is obviously unbalanced. We should only let a certain number from each race come in so it doesn't turn into another china.
This imbalance could lead to a disruption , especially when the people we let in don't bother to learn the culture and stick to themselves.

[Vinny G]

and let me guess for some reason this post is not racist??

I suppose you don't realize that I am Chinese.

Also, SkinnyPupp gave me a 20 point infraction for that post :lol

[darkfroggy]

Well you know, your parents...

http://knowyourmeme.com/i/000/048/900/original/tumblr_l0kwr9VAYb1qakgigo1_500.jpg?1273371846

[twitchyzero]

The problem is we are letting too much of one race into the province. I thought Canada was supposed to be multicultural but it is obviously unbalanced. We should only let a certain number from each race come in so it doesn't turn into another china.
This imbalance could lead to a disruption , especially when the people we let in don't bother to learn the culture and stick to themselves.
good one, that just negates our Charter of Freedom and Rights

[Great68]

I remember from my first year at BCIT asians were probably the majority of any one race in my classes.
But I also remember that by the second year the majority of drop-outs or those who had to take a modified schedule because they did not pass all their previous courses were also asians...

It never bothered me much. I got awesome grades, and even won a graduating award and I could have tried a lot harder.

[darkfroggy]

good one, that just negates our Charter of Freedom and Rights

Charter of Rights and Freedoms don't apply to immigration cases though. They can deny you for multiple reasons.

What really irks me is that it's more efficient to illegally come to Canada and declare refugee status than apply legally.

"hey gaiz, you kan skip the queue if u cum here on a boatz!!" it free and guaranteed admisshun!"

[MindBomber]

I didn't make an unsupportable statement. You stated that, "raising tuition rates or fees is not the answer to any problem," which implied that you expected society to make up the difference in your tuition cost. You, meanwhile, make the unsupportable statements: "Realities of life as a student" is hardly an argument. Where are education subsidies coming from, if not from tax payers?

Not only can you not figure out simple economics, it seems like reading comprehension isn't your strong point either.



There you go with your feeling of entitlement once again, which only proves my point. You'd rather someone else pay for your education than take on personal "crippling student loan debt." Why are you so unwilling to pay for the true cost of your education?



If you had to pay the true cost of your education, perhaps you wouldn't sit on your ass and feel entitled to "the experience, enlightenment and personal fulfillment." If you had to pay the true cost of your education, you'd realize that it made poor financial sense. Rather than get a useless Arts degree like thousands of other students with Arts degree that flood the job market every year, you might instead have to become a plumber. Unfortunately, society is burdened with having to pay for your education, while you admit that there isn't much of a financial return in it. And when my plumbing breaks, I have to wait hours for some asshole to show up and charge $200 to fix a leaking pipe.



Learning the skills necessary to become my plumber is bettering yourself and is definitely bettering society since we are short of tradesmen. Recall, I went to an Ivy League school, so people of my ilk can do all the thinking and white collar work that society needs. Witness the fact that you have an Arts degree and can hardly out-debate me on this topic. I want a world where there are fewer Arts degree holders, but the ones that exist are a breed that is smarter, more informed and more literate than the mass of peons waving their society funded B.As and whining about not being able to find employment. These are the same people that feel too proud to take up trade jobs and occupations, which are more suited to their marginal intellectual capabilities so they end up in the civil service and are a further burden on tax payers.

Do you think it is fair that a plumber who never went to university, that works hard and is in a high income tax bracket as a result, should be forced to pay high taxes on his income so your ass could be in school for "personal fulfillment"? That, in my opinion, should be the source of great pity and detest.

If you were to re-read my response, you'd realize you were the one with reading comprehension issues. Realities of life as a student is more than a sufficient for argument given the context, if this were a formal paper being submitted for peer review of course I would of outlined the specific details. Anyone who has attended university, which you apparently have, would understand the difficulty of the enormous costs associated with an education, while earning a minimal income. Costs, which would put university out of reach of all except the extremely wealthy if it were not for education subsidies. Canada student loans are subsidised, would you propose we do away with those as well,and force students to use credit cards instead?

Explain what people of your ilk means, do people who went to ivy league schools? The only real difference between your ivy league schools and UBC, Mcgill or UofT, is tuition cost. American ivy league schools are ranked higher than Canadian schools of equivalent quality, because their geographic locations put them in a far superior position for name recognition and grant money.

Also, I'm proud to say that my gpa has never dropped below 4.1 while working on my Arts degree. I assume that qualifies me to be included in, "a breed that is smarter, more informed and more literate than the mass of peons"; If not, I'll refer you to the 4.0 gpa I had while working on my BS.

[Vinny G]

If you were to re-read my response, you'd realize you were the one with reading comprehension issues. Realities of life as a student is more than a sufficient for argument given the context, if this were a formal paper being submitted for peer review of course I would of outlined the specific details. Anyone who has attended university, which you apparently have, would understand the difficulty of the enormous costs associated with an education, while earning a minimal income. Costs, which would put university out of reach of all except the extremely wealthy if it were not for education subsidies. Canada student loans are subsidised, would you propose we do away with those as well,and force students to use credit cards instead?

Explain what people of your ilk means, do people who went to ivy league schools? The only real difference between your ivy league schools and UBC, Mcgill or UofT, is tuition cost. American ivy league schools are ranked higher than Canadian schools of equivalent quality, because their geographic locations put them in a far superior position for name recognition and grant money.

Also, I'm proud to say that my gpa has never dropped below 4.1 while working on my Arts degree. I assume that qualifies me to be included in, "a breed that is smarter, more informed and more literate than the mass of peons"; If not, I'll refer you to the 4.0 gpa I had while working on my BS.

Well it's a double-edged sword. If you want post-secondary education to be affordable/heavily subsidized then prepare to have the value of your degree significantly reduced.

Just looking at my office, it's a little sad(?) that the administrative assistants all have stuff like arts/criminology/marketing degrees.

[EmperorIS]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inpRaoYdQOI&feature=related

[no_clue]

Explain what people of your ilk means, do people who went to ivy league schools? The only real difference between your ivy league schools and UBC, Mcgill or UofT, is tuition cost. American ivy league schools are ranked higher than Canadian schools of equivalent quality, because their geographic locations put them in a far superior position for name recognition and grant money.

Also, I'm proud to say that my gpa has never dropped below 4.1 while working on my Arts degree. I assume that qualifies me to be included in, "a breed that is smarter, more informed and more literate than the mass of peons"; If not, I'll refer you to the 4.0 gpa I had while working on my BS.

There is a HUGE difference between UBC/UT/Mcgill and an ivy league. Even if you graduate with a 4.0GPA in commerce, you cant even get into Goldman Sachs as a mailroom worker. It's about networking/alumni and nothing beats an ivy league for that. Also, ivy leagues are very selective such as creating quotas for different demographics and ethnicity to ensure a diverse student life. Thus a kid from Idaho can network with a son of the CEO of a multinational corporation. Also, if your parents earn less than $75,000/year, most ivy leagues will pay your whole tuition! Not being shallow but rarely a Fortune 100 company will recognize what UBC stands for, compared to say Harvard or Princeton.

[Marco911]

If you were to re-read my response, you'd realize you were the one with reading comprehension issues. Realities of life as a student is more than a sufficient for argument given the context, if this were a formal paper being submitted for peer review of course I would of outlined the specific details.

This is exactly the problem I have with university graduates from degree mills such as the school you went to. Besides your excuse of intellectual laziness, a truly educated person would be able to form an opinion or a cogent argument based on rational thought. You have proven that you can do neither. You show no evidence of your opinion having evolved despite being unable to refute any of my arguments. That is the essence of ignorance.

Incidentally, "realities of life as a student" is a statement, not an argument.
It is equivalent to arguing that one should not kill cockroaches because of the "realities of life of a cockroach."


Anyone who has attended university, which you apparently have, would understand the difficulty of the enormous costs associated with an education, while earning a minimal income. Costs, which would put university out of reach of all except the extremely wealthy if it were not for education subsidies.

Let me introduce you to a concept that you might not have heard of called Net Present Value. It has to do with initial cash outflows with the expectation of future cash inflows that provide a positive internal rate of return. If people had to pay the true cost of college, they would pick degrees that would allow them to pay off their school in the future. This surplus economic value benefits society.

I don't agree that universities would ONLY cater to the wealthy. I accept that there will be a disparity in the proportion of students from higher income families in universities and perhaps only the most capable students from lower income families would see the economic value of going to universities. So be it. Life isn't fair. The unwashed masses shouldn't feel entitled to an expensive college degree at the best schools on someone else's dime without society being able to extract a fair return.

If you think I'm being unfair, think about this: A wealthy student didn't choose the family he was born into anymore than a poor student chooses the intelligence he was born with.


Canada student loans are subsidised, would you propose we do away with those as well,and force students to use credit cards instead?


Interest rates are low enough that loans don't have to be subsidized. Student loans should always be available for those who need it. My argument has always been about ACCESS to higher education. If access were overly wide, there would be a surplus of graduates who drive down the value of degrees and the ability to repay student debt. These subsidies also result in an imbalance in the work force. The high taxes required to support an inefficient distribution of skills in the workforce make it less attractive for corporations to create high paying jobs. That's why there are so few major corporations based in Canada.


Explain what people of your ilk means, do people who went to ivy league schools? The only real difference between your ivy league schools and UBC, Mcgill or UofT, is tuition cost. American ivy league schools are ranked higher than Canadian schools of equivalent quality, because their geographic locations put them in a far superior position for name recognition and grant money.

An Ivy league is equivalent quality to a Canadian university, the same way Johns Hopkins or the Mayo Clinic is equivalent quality to VGH. They are pretty far from equivalent. A recruiter from McKinsey or Goldmann knows that at Harvard or Stanford most of the students are going to be cherries because of the school's heavily selective criteria that ensure a well-rounded and balanced class. At the degree mills, it would be difficult to find the cherries among the thousands of 4.0GPAs where university spots are filled by sorting applicants from the highest grades to the lowest.


Also, I'm proud to say that my gpa has never dropped below 4.1 while working on my Arts degree. I assume that qualifies me to be included in, "a breed that is smarter, more informed and more literate than the mass of peons"; If not, I'll refer you to the 4.0 gpa I had while working on my BS.

Judging by the quality of your arguments, it does not, I'm afraid. If you think your degree is just as good as mine, come up with something of substance to prove your arguments and refute mine!

[Marco911]

Also, if your parents earn less than $75,000/year, most ivy leagues will pay your whole tuition! Not being shallow but rarely a Fortune 100 company will recognize what UBC stands for, compared to say Harvard or Princeton.

Admissions at Ivy Leagues are "needs blind." They do not look at your ability to pay in their decision process to admit a student.

That does not mean they are free or someone else will pick up the tab if you can't afford it. If you can't afford it, you have to apply for either loans or scholarships. Loans are guaranteed, but you have to pay this onerous debt of >$100K once you graduate and start working. To get a scholarship or subsidized tuition you have to qualify. Only a small proportion of top students qualify - and the critieria is not just grades.

As a result, many admitted students choose to go to cheaper state schools and the places that become available get filled by children of wealthier families that are on the waiting list. The schools can claim they are needs blind in their admission process, the quality of students remains high, and those that can afford to pay and are competent are admitted, which adds to the mystique and appeal of the school. You didn't think that Ivy Leagues just happened to be filled by the network set based on pure merits alone, did you?

[Lomac]

There is free education available to everyone - it's called the public library and it's far cheaper than university. Funny how universities seem to be full of people and public libraries comparatively empty. People such as yourself really want a piece of paper that gives you an expectation of higher future income but you expect the rest of society to pay your way through.

The problem is that no matter how many books you read, nor how many binders you fill with notes, you still can't advance in certain jobs without that piece of paper stating you actually know that information. It's not that people necessarily want their degree in such-and-such, it's because it's so often a requirement.

If you want to get to a top university, for the most part, you should have to pay your way for the true cost of education while you're there. Subsidies should only go to the best students selected on the basis of a wide range of factors that predict their future contributions to society.

Okay, so how and what would you base this screening on? Social peers? Who their parents are? Their grades in school? An IQ test? Or perhaps a simple written and oral test designed to tax their knowledge on certain subjects?

Canada subsidizes university education because the thinking goes that graduates earn higher salaries and that means more tax revenues. It seems like investing in many student's higher education today is a bad investment. Graduates barely make enough income to pay for their already massively subsidized student loans much less become worthwhile tax payers.

I agree with you here...

Instead a university degree should be available to fewer elite students, which will increase the value of a degree and increase wages and employment prospects for graduates. The people who don't make the cut will be redirected to occupations that have a shortage of people such as nursing, cooking and the trades. The increase in supply of people to these professions will drive down wages for trades back to a more reasonable level. There is something seriously wrong when many people in the trades that don't own their own business can earn six figure salaries, while the average income for undergraduates is $45K/yr. There needs to be better balance between blue-collar and white-collar work.

...yet disagree with this. Again, how do you screen students in order for them to become said elite students? As stated, thousands of students who hold GPA's of 3.8+ apply to universities throughout Canada every year. You can't base a screening standard on grades alone, yet going into areas like who you know creates an unfair advantage for those students who have family members already well connected in various places.

Admissions at Ivy Leagues are "needs blind." They do not look at your ability to pay in their decision process to admit a student.

That does not mean they are free or someone else will pick up the tab if you can't afford it. If you can't afford it, you have to apply for either loans or scholarships. Loans are guaranteed, but you have to pay this onerous debt of >$100K once you graduate and start working. To get a scholarship or subsidized tuition you have to qualify. Only a small proportion of top students qualify - and the critieria is not just grades.

As a result, many admitted students choose to go to cheaper state schools and the places that become available get filled by children of wealthier families that are on the waiting list. The schools can claim they are needs blind in their admission process, the quality of students remains high, and those that can afford to pay and are competent are admitted, which adds to the mystique and appeal of the school. You didn't think that Ivy Leagues just happened to be filled by the network set based on pure merits alone, did you?

I don't agree that universities would ONLY cater to the wealthy. I accept that there will be a disparity in the proportion of students from higher income families in universities and perhaps only the most capable students from lower income families would see the economic value of going to universities. So be it. Life isn't fair. The unwashed masses shouldn't feel entitled to an expensive college degree at the best schools on someone else's dime without society being able to extract a fair return.

If you think I'm being unfair, think about this: A wealthy student didn't choose the family he was born into anymore than a poor student chooses the intelligence he was born with.

I don't think the majority of people feel that they're entitled to an expensive degree for the lowest price possible. It's simply that if tuition was jacked up to the price that it really is, most people wouldn't be able to afford it. It doesn't matter how smart you are, there are only a very limited amount of scholarships available to the market. Someone who could be the next Einstein, Tesla, or whomever else may not be able to afford an education at a high calibre school (read: not an Ivy League school, but at least a high ranking one), and is instead relegated to a community college or a mid-range University like UBC at best. In fact, if he was subjected to a screening process like you proposed earlier, he may not even be able to get into a career path that he wanted. That tangent aside, many people who may be capable of changing the face of the earth for the better may be left behind and instead relegated to blue collar jobs or working as an accountant instead of behind a lab desk, experimenting.

Learning the skills necessary to become my plumber is bettering yourself and is definitely bettering society since we are short of tradesmen. Recall, I went to an Ivy League school, so people of my ilk can do all the thinking and white collar work that society needs. Witness the fact that you have an Arts degree and can hardly out-debate me on this topic. I want a world where there are fewer Arts degree holders, but the ones that exist are a breed that is smarter, more informed and more literate than the mass of peons waving their society funded B.As and whining about not being able to find employment. These are the same people that feel too proud to take up trade jobs and occupations, which are more suited to their marginal intellectual capabilities so they end up in the civil service and are a further burden on tax payers.

Do you think it is fair that a plumber who never went to university, that works hard and is in a high income tax bracket as a result, should be forced to pay high taxes on his income so your ass could be in school for "personal fulfillment"? That, in my opinion, should be the source of great pity and detest.

:thumbsup:

[1exotic]

http://www.gifbin.com/bin/052009/1243594993_cupcakedog-war-flashbacks.gif

this thread.

[Marco911]

The problem is that no matter how many books you read, nor how many binders you fill with notes, you still can't advance in certain jobs without that piece of paper stating you actually know that information. It's not that people necessarily want their degree in such-and-such, it's because it's so often a requirement.

That doesn't change the fact that there are too many people chasing too few jobs and too few people chasing trade jobs. The few white-collar jobs are going to go to the few best candidates anyway (and companies are not focussing on people who have the best grades). This pushes down wages for white-collar work and leaves the rest of the degree holders to work at Starbucks.



Okay, so how and what would you base this screening on? Social peers? Who their parents are? Their grades in school? An IQ test? Or perhaps a simple written and oral test designed to tax their knowledge on certain subjects?


Grades, Standardized tests, community work, essays for first stage applicants and a personal interview to pick the final candidates. The school should also consider whether a parent or sibling went to the school. That's how you create a small, selective and diverse class. You get to know the students as much as possible before. You don't just send an acceptance letter based on a person's grades.


...yet disagree with this. Again, how do you screen students in order for them to become said elite students? As stated, thousands of students who hold GPA's of 3.8+ apply to universities throughout Canada every year. You can't base a screening standard on grades alone,

See above


yet going into areas like who you know creates an unfair advantage for those students who have family members already well connected in various places.


If there are a few marginal people who get in due to connections, so what?

Do you believe in affirmative action? If you do, there is no difference between the two.


I don't think the majority of people feel that they're entitled to an expensive degree for the lowest price possible. It's simply that if tuition was jacked up to the price that it really is, most people wouldn't be able to afford it.

Boo-effing-hoo. I think people would work a lot harder in school, and they would pick degrees which have a high future financial return. If company's have to fight for good job candidates, wages will increase and signing bonuses often cover the cost of school. This was what the job market was like for IT graduates during the early phases of the dot-com boom. This is about the alignment between the skill set of the work force and the skills required by society.



It doesn't matter how smart you are, there are only a very limited amount of scholarships available to the market. Someone who could be the next Einstein, Tesla, or whomever else may not be able to afford an education at a high calibre school (read: not an Ivy League school, but at least a high ranking one), and is instead relegated to a community college or a mid-range University like UBC at best. In fact, if he was subjected to a screening process like you proposed earlier, he may not even be able to get into a career path that he wanted.

I don't really agree with this. Scholarships are always available for top candidates and most innovation is still coming out of expensive American schools, not Canadian degree mills.


That tangent aside, many people who may be capable of changing the face of the earth for the better may be left behind and instead relegated to blue collar jobs or working as an accountant instead of behind a lab desk, experimenting.


The people who are capable of getting into grad school would certainly be selected for undergraduate degree programs. My concern is for the thousands of other graduates with expensive tax-payer funded degrees that are working low end jobs and have driven down the wage to the point that it is pretty much impossible for them to even afford housing in Vancouver.

[m!chael]

LOL this thread is awesome

[MindBomber]

This thread is going nowhere.

Is like trying to convince Steven Harper to vote Liberal.

[slammer111]

Being stuck in a group for projects with somone that cannot speak english is beyond frustrating

when i first attended BCIT i remember we had a pretty large project with a week to do it, and one guy in our group could not speak english even to convey an idea on what should be done or how to do it

His contribution? he came to class the next day and handed out pirated copies of microsoft Excel to our group lolShoot, I spit out my lunch. :rofl:

[darkfroggy]

Affirmative action is fucking retarded.

Bright kids with futures don't get in because some dumbass was a certain skin colour.

[t_sack]

its alllll gooodd. makes it easier for china to take over the world with no resistance

[Marco911]

This thread is going nowhere.

Is like trying to convince Steven Harper to vote Liberal.

It's going nowhere because you haven't been able to come up with any worthy arguments showing why taxpayers should fund expensive degrees for many thousands of mediocre candidates who struggle to earn a living post-graduation and end up leaving the country to work in countries like PRC and Hong Kong where the job prospects are much better and the skill set required, lower.

[Marco911]

Affirmative action is fucking retarded.

Bright kids with futures don't get in because some dumbass was a certain skin colour.

It's not really about skin color. It's about bringing diverse view points and people from different socio-economic backgrounds into the class profile. If you came from a certain background, it's probably fairer for you to compete against your own peer group, than to be a marginal candidate with a profile similar to the rest of the class who scored better than you did.

[darkfroggy]

It's not really about skin color. It's about bringing diverse view points and people from different socio-economic backgrounds into the class profile. If you came from a certain background, it's probably fairer for you to compete against your own peer group, than to be a marginal candidate with a profile similar to the rest of the class who scored better than you did.

So if I'm X, that means I have to work twice as hard as Y to get in?

AA screws people over. Spots are supposed to be earned, not given.

Canadians students can practically go into any domestic University they wish, government will loan you until you can repay.

[Marco911]

So if I'm X, that means I have to work twice as hard as Y to get in?

No, you have to meet the standard of other Xs. A Y from an underpriviledged background who is at the top of other Ys might make up about 5% of the class.



AA screws people over. Spots are supposed to be earned, not given.

People are not competing on a level playing field, so there has to be a few spots reserved to ensure that the class represents people from diverse backgrounds.



Canadians students can practically go into any domestic University they wish, government will loan you until you can repay.

That is why there is almost no value to a Canadian undergraduate degree other than Engineering.

[darkfroggy]

No, you have to meet the standard of other Xs. A Y from an underpriviledged background who is at the top of other Ys might make up about 5% of the class.




People are not competing on a level playing field, so there has to be a few spots reserved to ensure that the class represents people from diverse backgrounds.




That is why there is almost no value to a Canadian undergraduate degree other than Engineering.

What do you mean by "underprivileged"? In Canada, high school education is free and mandatory.

If you mean by material wealth, then I would argue that my family was underprivileged in that regard. Yet, I received no special entrance admissions.

Affirmative action is essentially reverse discrimination in place. Applications should be based on merit, not on your appearance.

Undergraduate degrees are not that special anywhere, regardless if they're American or Canadian.

[MindBomber]

It's going nowhere because you haven't been able to come up with any worthy arguments showing why taxpayers should fund expensive degrees for many thousands of mediocre candidates who struggle to earn a living post-graduation and end up leaving the country to work in countries like PRC and Hong Kong where the job prospects are much better and the skill set required, lower.

Honestly, I'm just to busy to commit more than a couples minutes to a post in between homework. If I devoted more time to my arguments they would have better structure and content.

I'll admit my arguments weren't great, but they're a product of the effort I put into them. Just curious, whats your degree in, Business?

[Lomac]

That is why there is almost no value to a Canadian undergraduate degree other than Engineering.

Good; Glad to see that the degree I'm pursuing gets your approval for a valid, Canadian degree. :lol

[Marco911]

Affirmative action is essentially reverse discrimination in place. Applications should be based on merit, not on your appearance.

A talented musician, ice skater or football player who need to spend 30+ hrs a week practicing and has their grades suffer as a result, should they be denied a spot at university compared to a mediocre person who has almost no talents but has a lot of time to spend studying in the library and has better grades?

Should the Hispanic community be denied access to sufficient Hispanic doctors/lawyers who speak their language and understand the culture because not enough Hispanic people can meet the standard of an arguably culturally-biased admissions process?

If you have good answers to these questions, perhaps you would have a stronger argument against affirmative action.

[Death2Theft]

Just to throw a curveball into the mix....

How do you feel about more than 50% of post secondary population being female, when they spend all this time and money getting degrees..... only for the majority of them to plan on having kids within 5-10 years of graduation?

That means they blocked out a bunch of guys from getting into the class, who would have made real careers out of their chosen field only to have these chicks come in fart around in the field and decide ok time to pop out kids. Alot of the big $ corprate ladder jobs dont really hit their stride till 15-20+ years.

[rslater]

Just to throw a curveball into the mix....

How do you feel about more than 50% of post secondary population being female, when they spend all this time and money getting degrees..... only for the majority of them to plan on having kids within 5-10 years of graduation?

That means they blocked out a bunch of guys from getting into the class, who would have made real careers out of their chosen field only to have these chicks come in fart around in the field and decide ok time to pop out kids. Alot of the big $ corprate ladder jobs dont really hit their stride till 15-20+ years.

You bring up an interesting point as I have a freind who has a masters already in internation diplomacy, and is persuing her law degree, and has even admited that all she wants to really do in the future is have a family and kids and be a house wife. I questioned the same thing, why she would persue this avenue now, when she has already chosen her near future.

[Death2Theft]

So the real intresting question is..... where are all these over educated women going to find suitable husbands? Since less than 50% of post secondary is female.... Surely they wouldn't settle for a blue collar....

Funny part is all that education but these women wont be able to handle the simple cooking/cleaning etc stuff that guys want in a wife.

So a blue collar guy marrying these chicks isn't going to do it for money because she's going to stop working.... so what kind of guy would want to marry these chicks and for what reason? To have "educated stimulating" conversation? I think not.
You bring up an interesting point as I have a freind who has a masters already in internation diplomacy, and is persuing her law degree, and has even admited that all she wants to really do in the future is have a family and kids and be a house wife. I questioned the same thing, why she would persue this avenue now, when she has already chosen her near future.

[RollingStone]

Just to throw a curveball into the mix....

How do you feel about more than 50% of post secondary population being female, when they spend all this time and money getting degrees..... only for the majority of them to plan on having kids within 5-10 years of graduation?

That means they blocked out a bunch of guys from getting into the class, who would have made real careers out of their chosen field only to have these chicks come in fart around in the field and decide ok time to pop out kids. Alot of the big $ corprate ladder jobs dont really hit their stride till 15-20+ years.

Ever think that not everyone is obsessed with just money and stuff? People that get masters degrees (or higher education in general) do so for the intrinsic rewards as much (if not more so) than the expected material rewards.

The women (and men) who obtain these degrees are not only getting a great educational experience, they're also expanding the range of their options. Who are you to judge whether someone is more or less deserving of university spot? If the student in question meets the qualifications of a certain academic institution then that person is deserving. People that are afraid of a little competition and then blame others who are more successful are pathetic. [i.e. blaming others because you weren't good enough to get accepted into X school] It is the said student's business what she chooses to do or not to do with her degree, not yours. She worked for it, you didn't. It's self-evident that women who pursue advanced degrees want more fulfilling lives. Maybe they want to be good mothers AND have a successful career. Having advanced degrees/skills gives them the option to not only pursue a fulfilling career after the formidable years of child-rearing but makes them more "attractive" as well. To many men (obviously you are not among this group), intelligence is a critical factor when choosing a partner.

[snowball]

I cant tell if Death2Theft is being sarcastic or not

[Death2Theft]

Say what you want but sooner or later you'll have to realize that you can't have both a full time career and raise kids properly. Look at how many young punks we have out there causing trouble that wouldn't have happened with more devoted parents. Look at all the singlemoms cranking out these future drug dealer/thieves, do you think more of these kids are going to be post secondary grads vs kids with a fully family?

I like intelligent women as much as the next guy, but there comes a point where you have to be "intelligent" enough to realize that if you want succesful full time career dont have kids. Or do have kids and leave them for society to deal with.

This leads into another tangent, about women demanding equal pay for work as men. Since we know how the majority of female grads arn't going to be busting their ass for the rest of their life in the field in which they have gotten/taken grant money from. (out of a pool of $ that could have been invested in guys that would have gotten more use out of it)
So why should women get equal pay to men if they arn't going to devote their entire lives to their career? How "right" is that?

So I'm sure you going to say hey women are equal to men! Your just too stupid to realize it!
Well we all know there are plenty of businesses run by men with pretty much only male employees. So if women are equal to men why arn't there companies that are 100% female and can crank out the same profits and earning reports as the male companies? Simple answer? Refer to the above paragraph.


Ever think that not everyone is obsessed with just money and stuff? People that get masters degrees (or higher education in general) do so for the intrinsic rewards as much (if not more so) than the expected material rewards.

The women (and men) who obtain these degrees are not only getting a great educational experience, they're also expanding the range of their options. Who are you to judge whether someone is more or less deserving of university spot? If the student in question meets the qualifications of a certain academic institution then that person is deserving. People that are afraid of a little competition and then blame others who are more successful are pathetic. [i.e. blaming others because you weren't good enough to get accepted into X school] It is the said student's business what she chooses to do or not to do with her degree, not yours. She worked for it, you didn't. It's self-evident that women who pursue advanced degrees want more fulfilling lives. Maybe they want to be good mothers AND have a successful career. Having advanced degrees/skills gives them the option to not only pursue a fulfilling career after the formidable years of child-rearing but makes them more "attractive" as well. To many men (obviously you are not among this group), intelligence is a critical factor when choosing a partner.

[Vinny G]

Who are you to judge whether someone is more or less deserving of university spot?

So you think the government should be subsidizing education for someone pursuing an essentially useless degree that the government has no hope in hell of recovering through taxes or societal/economic contribution?

Marco's right. If you want personal fulfillment, go to the library and read books. When you're spending $10,000+ in education knowing you want to be a housewife, you're past the point of "intrinsic rewards" and just going to school for your own enjoyment. How is it different from me spending $10,000 watching art-house flicks? Oh right, I don't get that piece of paper at the end.

For what it's worth, I don't equate intelligence with a person spending huge amounts of money and years of time on useless degrees.

[GabAlmighty]

FUCK

[snowball]

I think you're over generalizing to say that people with women with careers aren't capable of raising children properly. You assume that women are the only ones responsible for raising of children, what is the role of the fathers in raising these "young punks?" What about single mothers? You won't let them have equal pay, and with no child support you're implying they should somehow raise their kids without any money.

What about rich families with two career driven parents living in the west side, do you see them raising young punks as well? It is a socioeconomic phenomenon that often causes the situation where children aren't raised to "your" standards. It takes (arguably) two parents to raise children, why are you assuming that fathers should take no role in raising their children? That only men are capable of devoting 100% to their careers? Are we living in a society that has no compassion for the ones we love?

You've fallen into the hole of using neo-liberalist efficiency driven examples where men are still the breadwinner and women take care of the home and children. Your examples are a result of historical stigma and are only true because that's the way it's always been. It has always been men taking the role of CEOs and upper level positions and only recently has this been changing, which is why you don't have examples of companies composed of 100% women... yet.

The declining birth-rate in Canada, and much of the developed world has much to do with this too. Families (not just women) are choosing to have less children than before often because everyone is choosing career over family. Most of the population in growth in Canada is from immigrant populations that have come here not for careers but just for jobs so they can raise their kids. And just like many of our parents who sacrificed a lot to allow their kids to have an education, pave the way for their children to have a better education, which will allow them to have careers, and they too will have less kids too.

It may be true that CEOs and high level positions are held by men. But a you cannot define an entire economy by the highest level positions. Girls at a young age are beginning to dominate in many areas of early education even in areas of math and science because many parents have assumed that boys will naturally be better than girls at school: look up "Boys are being failed by our schools" on google or any academic journal for more information.

Also, the argument that women should be paid the same as men is a valid argument because the jobs that are being compared are equal-level, equal-seniority positions. What justifies the gender wage gap for the exact same work? This has yet to be determined.

Say what you want but sooner or later you'll have to realize that you can't have both a full time career and raise kids properly. Look at how many young punks we have out there causing trouble that wouldn't have happened with more devoted parents. Look at all the singlemoms cranking out these future drug dealer/thieves, do you think more of these kids are going to be post secondary grads vs kids with a fully family?

I like intelligent women as much as the next guy, but there comes a point where you have to be "intelligent" enough to realize that if you want succesful full time career dont have kids. Or do have kids and leave them for society to deal with.

This leads into another tangent, about women demanding equal pay for work as men. Since we know how the majority of female grads arn't going to be busting their ass for the rest of their life in the field in which they have gotten/taken grant money from. (out of a pool of $ that could have been invested in guys that would have gotten more use out of it)
So why should women get equal pay to men if they arn't going to devote their entire lives to their career? How "right" is that?

So I'm sure you going to say hey women are equal to men! Your just too stupid to realize it!
Well we all know there are plenty of businesses run by men with pretty much only male employees. So if women are equal to men why arn't there companies that are 100% female and can crank out the same profits and earning reports as the male companies? Simple answer? Refer to the above paragraph.

[Death2Theft]

The role of the fathers is to bring home the bacon, and support the mom in discplining the kids. Two career driven parents = latch key kids. Of course dads forced into having kids because the mom refused to get an abortion... well yeah lets just say I dont blame the dad if he isn't a 100% committed to raising the kids properly. Before you even try to say "dont have sex "to the dad, the end decision to go thru with the kid is up to the mom.
So to all the single moms out there i'd like to say thank you for raising the next batch of criminals/strippers etc.
I'm saying single mothers should either think twice before they spread their legs or consider abortions when they are not in the right enviroment to raise kids.

Money isn't all it takes to raise kids hence only one parent should be the bread winner, certainly I think there are plenty of capable house husbands around. However do you think thats what CEO career driven women is going to be looking for? I think not. She wants someone who can "meet her" same level of education preferable more earning power etc etc.
All money gives you are more OPTIONS. You have the option of sending your kids to better schools, tutoring, camps. Which in turn gives kids more chances to meet other people that do well.

So your saying in 50 years (roughly one working generation) there hasn't been one company that caters to women.... and have only women working for them, yet can crank out earnings?
Truth is women at work more often then not are just moonlighting till they find mr.right. They sit around and plan birthday parties, show pictures of kids, gossip and generally arn't as focused as men are about getting work done. If there was a group of women that wern't like this then.... there would be a company like I've described.

Good so you wind up with a highly educated country with imported blue collar workers to order around. Just make sure you dont complain about "those damned minorities" when they become the majority because you chose career over family.

Again you've missed the point here, the reason there are more male CEO's is because they are working from the day they graduate till the day they die with no real excuse for any "sabbaticals" in between. Especially if they are supporting a family as the bread winner. So you have educational genius females blowing guys out of the water, what does that accomplish? Know it all wives that are going to order their husbands around or have kids by themselves because they dont need a man?

Hey i'm all for equal work equal pay. Problem is women are feminists when it suits them. They want equal pay yet they arn't willing to embrace the other aspects of being equal. Simply put how many attractive girls have taken you out on dates compared to how many times you've paid for them? If women are equal then buck up and STFU.

In the end I think women are just as capable as men in anything but physical labour. I'm just pissed off at women wasting resources. Having education is certainly better than not but at the cost of taking someone elses chance away simply because of affirmative action? If you make the grade i'm all for it, but if you got in because they needed x females to get a 50/50 gender split then I dont support that.


So if there are any attractive non bulldykes that would like to discuss this further and stand up for your gender feel free to pm me ;)
I think you're over generalizing to say that people with women with careers aren't capable of raising children properly. You assume that women are the only ones responsible for raising of children, what is the role of the fathers in raising these "young punks?" What about single mothers? You won't let them have equal pay, and with no child support you're implying they should somehow raise their kids without any money.

What about rich families with two career driven parents living in the west side, do you see them raising young punks as well? It is a socioeconomic phenomenon that often causes the situation where children aren't raised to "your" standards. It takes (arguably) two parents to raise children, why are you assuming that fathers should take no role in raising their children? That only men are capable of devoting 100% to their careers? Are we living in a society that has no compassion for the ones we love?

You've fallen into the hole of using neo-liberalist efficiency driven examples where men are still the breadwinner and women take care of the home and children. Your examples are a result of historical stigma and are only true because that's the way it's always been. It has always been men taking the role of CEOs and upper level positions and only recently has this been changing, which is why you don't have examples of companies composed of 100% women... yet.

The declining birth-rate in Canada, and much of the developed world has much to do with this too. Families (not just women) are choosing to have less children than before often because everyone is choosing career over family. Most of the population in growth in Canada is from immigrant populations that have come here not for careers but just for jobs so they can raise their kids. And just like many of our parents who sacrificed a lot to allow their kids to have an education, pave the way for their children to have a better education, which will allow them to have careers, and they too will have less kids too.

It may be true that CEOs and high level positions are held by men. But a you cannot define an entire economy by the highest level positions. Girls at a young age are beginning to dominate in many areas of early education even in areas of math and science because many parents have assumed that boys will naturally be better than girls at school: look up "Boys are being failed by our schools" on google or any academic journal for more information.

Also, the argument that women should be paid the same as men is a valid argument because the jobs that are being compared are equal-level, equal-seniority positions. What justifies the gender wage gap for the exact same work? This has yet to be determined.

[Marco911]

Just to throw a curveball into the mix....

How do you feel about more than 50% of post secondary population being female, when they spend all this time and money getting degrees..... only for the majority of them to plan on having kids within 5-10 years of graduation?


Not a curveball at all. The shortage of doctors has been attributed to an increase in the amount of women that attend medical school. Some of these women either work fewer hours then men or they become full time mothers, which has created the shortage. I think the two solutions are:

1) As I proposed earlier, to reduce tuition subsidies. If women had to pay off large student loans, they would either work harder, or choose an alternative profession.

2) Increase capacity of professional programs that have a shortage of workers.

[Marco911]

So the real intresting question is..... where are all these over educated women going to find suitable husbands? Since less than 50% of post secondary is female.... Surely they wouldn't settle for a blue collar....

Funny part is all that education but these women wont be able to handle the simple cooking/cleaning etc stuff that guys want in a wife.

So a blue collar guy marrying these chicks isn't going to do it for money because she's going to stop working.... so what kind of guy would want to marry these chicks and for what reason? To have "educated stimulating" conversation? I think not.

There's a high % of women that just do a bachelor of Arts since women have less abilities in Math and Science. They don't end up getting any better jobs than males without university degrees. I presume these couples woud pair up. It's the women in professional degrees that are looking for the smarter men.

[Marco911]

Ever think that not everyone is obsessed with just money and stuff? People that get masters degrees (or higher education in general) do so for the intrinsic rewards as much (if not more so) than the expected material rewards.



We are not disputing WHY people choose to go to university. We are asking WHO should be burdened with funding these expensive university degrees. In the most egregious cases of abuse are the idiots who are unemployable but feel they are too good for a blue collar jobs and instead just spend their time in university/colleges in non-degree programs. These make up 1/3 of candidates that the government sponsors.


According to government statistics (http://www.cmec.ca/pages/canadawide.aspx)

In 2004-2005, the Canadian government spent $30.6 BLN in post-secondary education funding.

There were 1.5M enrolled students, including 1M in credit programns and 0.5M non-credit candidates.

If you run the Math, that means the govt. is spending about $20,000 per student per year. That's fairly similar to U.S. universities where the avg. cost is about USD $20-$25K / yr.

Is $20K per student per year a good value to society just for "intrinsic rewards"?

[Vinny G]

lol, don't bother Marco. All that idiot knows how to do is hit the fail button as if it even means anything.

[PJ]

This article made me lol

[Sid Vicious]

We are not disputing WHY people choose to go to university. We are asking WHO should be burdened with funding these expensive university degrees. In the most egregious cases of abuse are the idiots who are unemployable but feel they are too good for a blue collar jobs and instead just spend their time in university/colleges in non-degree programs. These make up 1/3 of candidates that the government sponsors.


According to government statistics (http://www.cmec.ca/pages/canadawide.aspx)

In 2004-2005, the Canadian government spent $30.6 BLN in post-secondary education funding.

There were 1.5M enrolled students, including 1M in credit programns and 0.5M non-credit candidates.

If you run the Math, that means the govt. is spending about $20,000 per student per year. That's fairly similar to U.S. universities where the avg. cost is about USD $20-$25K / yr.

Is $20K per student per year a good value to society just for "intrinsic rewards"?

you could honestly make that argument about any gov't funded program

the gov't spent $X amount on the military last year. is $X amount a good value to society for Y reason?

the gov't spent $X amount on health care last year. is $X amount a good value to society for Y reason?

in the cases above you can easily claim diminished use or benefit from gov't funded programs, and argue against the amount being spent. everyone has their own ideas and justifications what the gov't should spend their money on

[LiquidTurbo]

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/4/25/129167157391801999.jpg

[Death2Theft]

Looks like Gatorade ran outta ammo and everyone else knows it's true.

[asian_XL]

didn't bother to read all 8 pages. Did they take international students into the account?

I am sure most of the asian students get their degree, then fly back immediately to their home land, just because tuition in Canada is relatively cheap and the school ranking is much higher than those asian local universities.

[snowball]

Looks like Gatorade ran outta ammo and everyone else knows it's true.

Ran out of ammo? you kidding me? I didn't respond to you to in order to get you to change your mind. The point of my post was to present an alternate point of view to the discussion so that other readers are aware that your view is not the only one out there and not everyone needs to believe in the dominant discourse.

No matter what I say you're not going to change your mind anyways, and if you believe that society is best with your stay-at-home mothers and working fathers then let your decisions follow that path, but do not impose your beliefs on other people. If someone out there wants to waste their money on a useless university education, let them do it, and to say that they aren't even entitled to the chance to become doctors, or engineers just because they are women and may plan to have children in the future is not yours to decide. You can take away subsidies and maternity leaves if you want to create a situation you feel is "equitable" and make it harder to be a parent and have a career at the same time, but it won't stop many people from doing both.

You're entitled to your point of view and you choose to run your family the way you want to, but recognize that not everyone has the same values as you do.

[goo3]

we're not better off with half the population not working or getting edumacated

[m4k4v4li]

the only valid argument you made is that women are disadvantaged if they decide to have a child and consequently go into labor. everything else you stated is pretty much chauvinistic garbage you have been cultured to believe

[Lomac]

So to all the single moms out there i'd like to say thank you for raising the next batch of criminals/strippers etc.
I'm saying single mothers should either think twice before they spread their legs or consider abortions when they are not in the right enviroment to raise kids.

Really? You're actually going to sit on that comment? This part is just asinine at it's best. To assume that all single moms come as a result of unwanted pregnancies is hugely stereotypical and vastly untrue.

[Death2Theft]

Whats more assasnine is to assume i said the word ALL. Sorry I meant majority, is that better? In none of my points do I state ALL it's generally or majority so cut and paste as needed.:rofl:
Really? You're actually going to sit on that comment? This part is just asinine at it's best. To assume that all single moms come as a result of unwanted pregnancies is hugely stereotypical and vastly untrue.

[Death2Theft]

Ok as long as u admit that when it comes to the majority i'm generally right. Thx lah:thumbsup:
Ran out of ammo? you kidding me? I didn't respond to you to in order to get you to change your mind. The point of my post was to present an alternate point of view to the discussion so that other readers are aware that your view is not the only one out there and not everyone needs to believe in the dominant discourse.

No matter what I say you're not going to change your mind anyways, and if you believe that society is best with your stay-at-home mothers and working fathers then let your decisions follow that path, but do not impose your beliefs on other people. If someone out there wants to waste their money on a useless university education, let them do it, and to say that they aren't even entitled to the chance to become doctors, or engineers just because they are women and may plan to have children in the future is not yours to decide. You can take away subsidies and maternity leaves if you want to create a situation you feel is "equitable" and make it harder to be a parent and have a career at the same time, but it won't stop many people from doing both.

You're entitled to your point of view and you choose to run your family the way you want to, but recognize that not everyone has the same values as you do.

[Death2Theft]

How would it be chauvinistic? Did you get all emotoinally riled up and can't think straight? I've always said that women CAN be equal to men in a white collar profession if they *CHOSE* to be. Do the majority chose to be?
lmao death2theft you have your head so far up your ass im surprised gatorade even took the time to respond.

the only valid argument you made is that women are disadvantaged if they decide to have a child and consequently go into labor. everything else you stated is pretty much chauvinistic garbage you have been cultured to believe

[RFlush]

So to all the single moms out there i'd like to say thank you for raising the next batch of criminals/strippers etc.
I'm saying single mothers should either think twice before they spread their legs or consider abortions when they are not in the right enviroment to raise kids.

Whats more assasnine is to assume i said the word ALL. Sorry I meant majority, is that better? In none of my points do I state ALL it's generally or majority so cut and paste as needed.:rofl:

Why are you even in a thread about higher education when clearly not only is your own reading comprehension equivalent to a 5th grader, but your spelling and grammar is worse than a kid who has never been to school.

Do you even know what "assasnine" (asinine) means without having to google it?

[Death2Theft]

Your absolutely right I have no idea what asinine means and i'm not a 5th grader. I'm actually a first grader.
I thank ALL single moms doesn't mean that they ALL can't raise one proper kid between the lot of them. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
If this happens ever again keep in mind I mean "majority/generally".
So with that out of the way would you care to discuss with logic and facts, perhaps to the topic at hand at pointing out more errors in my statements? Thanks.

[taylor192]

I think playing the race card lost what the MacLeans article should have focused on: universities are career factories now, not institutions of higher learning.

What I mean is: if you work hard, stick your head in a book and memorize everything you can do very well at university. Worse, you expect a career afterwards for your hard work. Thus if you help out your fellow classmate you hinder your own job prospects later as they become your competition.

I saw this at Waterloo when I would visit my friends there. The university is soo competitive that many students spend a lot of time studying - alone. Grades are posted with class ranks on your transcript. Thus when applying for jobs afterwards, an employer will know where you rank amongst your peers. If you rank high, why would you want to help them in school, cause then they might out rank you.

I went to a school that was predominately Indian/Middle Eastern and the article would apply equally. So it is not just Asian, nor is it Indian, Middle Eastern, ... what it is that Universities have changed into career factories.

60% of young Canadians will attend college/university and struggle to get that piece of paper which will help them land a career, so it is no wonder university life supports that competitive lifestyle that some are finally realizing - sucks. I would have skipped university if I could have, yet I sadly needed that stupid piece of paper too.

University used to be about learning and finding yourself, now it is about memorizing and finding a job. :(

[Oleophobic]

Whats more assasnine is to assume i said the word ALL. Sorry I meant majority, is that better? In none of my points do I state ALL it's generally or majority so cut and paste as needed.:rofl:

Ok as long as u admit that when it comes to the majority i'm generally right. Thx lah:thumbsup:

How would it be chauvinistic? Did you get all emotoinally riled up and can't think straight? I've always said that women CAN be equal to men in a white collar profession if they *CHOSE* to be. Do the majority chose to be?

let me introduce you to this button: http://cdn.revscene.ca/styles/darklight/images/buttons/multiquote_off.gif

use it

[taylor192]

let me introduce you to this button: http://cdn.revscene.ca/styles/darklight/images/buttons/multiquote_off.gif

use it
Relax dude, he's responding to different people, and his comments would be lost while quoting each of them.

Let me introduce you to this feature: http://www.revscene.net/forums/profile.php?do=ignorelist
If you don't like his post style, just ignore him.

[darkfroggy]

Why are you even in a thread about higher education when clearly not only is your own reading comprehension equivalent to a 5th grader, but your spelling and grammar is worse than a kid who has never been to school.

Do you even know what "assasnine" (asinine) means without having to google it?

Run-on sentence. You also asked a question without ending in a question mark. Let me fix that for you, smarty:

"Why are you even in a thread about higher education? Not only is your reading comprehension equivalent to a 5th grader, but your spelling and grammar are worse than a kid who has never been to school."

How about you respond to his comments instead of nitpicking about stupid shit in a forum? All I've seen you do is hit the FAIL button with no points of your own.

[Oleophobic]

Relax dude, he's responding to different people, and his comments would be lost while quoting each of them.


Alright fine I won't get into a debate on whether or not comments will get lost when quoting 3 people. It just makes sense to me to use the multi button since the purpose of that button is for quoting multiple people (and responding) as opposed to making three separate posts, especially if the response is only 1 or 2 sentences long.

Don't mean to take this thread OT, sorry folks, carry on with the discussion.

[darkfroggy]

LOL RFlush running around and failing all my posts in random topics.

http://cdn1.knowyourmeme.com/i/30403/original/YouMad.jpg

[Death2Theft]

Thats how u know the guys a crazy bitch. He fights with emotions instead of facts and since he can't address you directly, he has to get at u passively omg fail button kakak!

[taylor192]

Thats how u know the guys a crazy bitch. He fights with emotions instead of facts !
Then there are a lot of crazy bitches on RS :rofl:

[terkan]

Your absolutely right I have no idea what asinine means and i'm not a 5th grader. I'm actually a first grader.
I thank ALL single moms doesn't mean that they ALL can't raise one proper kid between the lot of them. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
If this happens ever again keep in mind I mean "majority/generally".
So with that out of the way would you care to discuss with logic and facts, perhaps to the topic at hand at pointing out more errors in my statements? Thanks.
I'd like to thank your mom. That is all.
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