[dangonay]

There is a local car where the stock M3 V8 is ruined and needs replacement, and an LS7 (for those who don't know, it's the 505HP V8 from a Corvette Z06) is one possibility being considered.

Opinions? Should he do the swap?

[Boostslut]

Why shouldn't he? Go for it! Sounds like a neat swap! Good luck!

[GabAlmighty]

sure

[ilvtofu]

It makes a lot of sense in the long run will probably save him a lot of money
. Go big or go home ls9 ftw :p
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[carmaniac]

LS9 FTW

http://www.motorator.com/uploads/blog_images/0000/0335/LS9_Crate_Engine_5.jpg

:fuckyea:

[Z3guy]

if you plan to keep the M3, makes sense, best way to get 500hp. However, resale will be poor.

[freakshow]

You should only go for it if you're going to keep us posted with pics!

[orange7]

if you plan to keep the M3, makes sense, best way to get 500hp. However, resale will be poor.


well he can always sell it to a chick and her brother who doesn't know anything about cars. Just don't mention about the engine swap. :haha:

[mpr]

LS7: 505 hp at 6300 rpm and 470 lb·ft at 4800 rpm 7000 rpm redline 460 lb

S65: 414 hp at 8300 rpm and 295 lb·ft at 3900 rpm 8400 rpm redline 445 lb

even with improved "old" technology engine, on paper the ls7 sets the example that the bigger it is, the better it should be, however have you driven a Z06 before? 427 cu inch engine does not rev easily even with its forged titanium internals. To me I don't believe total power is the answer to everything, but it is the balance of the engine that makes the character of the vehicle. swapping the LS7 in would not be cheap either. your not going to find a LS7 laying somewhere in the junk yard and if you do find one, it will cost you about a leg or about $13K just for the motor, not mentioning the labour involved for custom engine, tranny mounts, drive axles, harness, bodywork, etc. What can you build with $13K into your S65 motor? most likely it will meet your LS7 power goals.

http://www.bmwclubuae.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3901

hmmm I guess I'll go with the S65. also note your resale value will be horrible with a LS7 engine swap.

[dangonay]

This is in a race car. An LS7 new with tranny would cost same as the M3 engine alone. Mounts are easy to weld up and making a driveshaft from the new tranny to mate with the diff would also be easy. Engine runs on a Pectel ECU so no problems making it work with the LS7. And the LS7 tuned would be 600HP whereas a tuned M3 barely makes more than a stock M3 since it's so highly tuned from the factory.

Then there's the reliability factor..
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[Phil@rise]

stellar idea!

[mpr]

dangonay: should of stated in your first post that this is for a "race car".

As a race car, there shouldn't be thoughts about resale value or emissions. all you would care is if you will win and how fast per lap can you do. Even though the cost will be negligible however if you are really thinking of putting the LS7 in, I'll recommend you to reconsider a LS2 or LS3 engine. building the LS2 will significantly reduce your "race car" build cost and with some work will also meet your 600 hp goal and probably more. Then again the owner may not have budget ceilings. It's good that he'll save alot on the other stuff when you do fabrication in house.

but most importantly, (not understanding what kind of racing you do ) have you read your rule books and what class are you going to run in? are you sure LSx engine with M3 platform is the ideal car to run in the unlimited class? food for thought.

Also, the "tuned" 600 hp LS7, can you define that abit more? I would assume running in umlimited class, you can do alot more than mild cams and heads. also buying a $13K LS7 is additional cost where as the owner already has a M3 engine in his garage (he just need to rebuilt it).

[fliptuner]

your not going to find a LS7 laying somewhere in the junk yard and if you do find one, it will cost you about a leg or about $13K just for the motor

$14k brand new from GM, complete. I've seen built ones go for $8k used and complete swaps, with the tranny, wiring, etc. for $6-9k.

[mpr]

Yeah. it is just estimated number. the problem is not the number, but finding $8-9K cdn used LS7 in a good running condition.

$13,625 usd for the new crate + shipping + tax.
http://www.crateenginedepot.com/store/images/17802397_large.jpg


I've seen used ls2 engine for $4-5K cdn. and it is available when you look around.

$14k brand new from GM, complete. I've seen built ones go for $8k used and complete swaps, with the tranny, wiring, etc. for $6-9k.

[dangonay]

Can't rebuild an engine that has a piston through the block. ;)

This isn't my car, it's a customers. Just throwing around a few ideas right now and no decisions have been made.
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[too_slow]

LS7/9 will NEVA LOSE!

P.S. do you still have your 400+hp B5 S4? I remember reading your build thread from like 5 years ago.. LOL

[shenmecar]

how is the engine ruined?

[originalhypa]

what about the large BMW motors, like an older 12 cylinder?
That would make a 3 series scream!

[fliptuner]

Can't rebuild an engine that has a piston through the block. ;)

how is the engine ruined?

2 posts above yours. :speechless:

[Redlines_Daily]

Swap sounds like a nice idea. Is the bmw V8 not covered under warranty?

[hk20000]

Swap sounds like a nice idea. Is the bmw V8 not covered under warranty?
If it's used in racing activity you are sol.:whistle:

[MindBomber]

what about the large BMW motors, like an older 12 cylinder?
That would make a 3 series scream!

I was going to say go with an m70, I've actually been researching swapping one into an E30 for a little while now. If budget isn't an issue though I say go with an s65 for the power, weight balance, availability of parts, technology.. and I saw one on craigslist for $10k not long ago.

Whenever someone swaps an engine from one manufacturer into a different manufacturers chassis it bugs me, it takes away from the cleanest and purity of the car.

Swap sounds like a nice idea. Is the bmw V8 not covered under warranty?

I think the warranty would have been voided by whatever caused a piston to shoot through the block, thats not exactly possible under stock conditions lol

[dangonay]

Looked at other motors. The guy who tuned this engine is the same guy who did the first ever BMW V10 aftermarket tune. That engine, some may remember, went into an E30. It's hella expensive and in the end makes the same HP as an LS7.
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[Great68]

I get a laugh at the "old technology" comments, I assume that is in respect to some perception that overhead camshafts are some sort of "new technology".

Overhead cam technology dates back to the 1920's...
The first modern pushrod V8 dates back to 1948.

One is not better than the other. It's not difficult to make pushrod motors rev to 9 grand. Strong block, light rotating assembly, solid lifters and strong valve springs.

[Death2Theft]

Dont be shy now what are you really trying to say? German engineering isn't reliable?
This is in a race car. An LS7 new with tranny would cost same as the M3 engine alone. Mounts are easy to weld up and making a driveshaft from the new tranny to mate with the diff would also be easy. Engine runs on a Pectel ECU so no problems making it work with the LS7. And the LS7 tuned would be 600HP whereas a tuned M3 barely makes more than a stock M3 since it's so highly tuned from the factory.

Then there's the reliability factor..
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[Great68]

German engineering isn't reliable?

Not in my experience.

[lowside67]

Interesting timing... I am actually in the process of an LS1 swap (which will grow into a lightly built LS6 once I blow up the "donor" motor) in my E36 3 series.

My car in the "Before" stage...

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs764.ash1/165587_10150140747583448_502773447_8068904_4297419 _n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/hs006.snc6/165619_10150141906693448_502773447_8087815_3804077 _n.jpg

New-to-me LS1 motor:

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1384.snc4/163650_10150144365863448_502773447_8133199_7126455 _n.jpg

Some info I posted on the UBC Sports Car Club forum regarding the swap into an E36:


Some people have asked about the fitment of the LS1 in the BMW and what it will do to the handling of the car.

This photo courtesy of Vorshlag is the best I can find demonstrating an LS1 installed in an E36 BMW. Technically this photo is of an LS1 installed in a Z3 engine bay but the Z3 engine bay is identical dimensionally in every way to the E36 3 series except that the Z3 is 2" longer in the very front section which you cant really see in the photo.

http://l23.sphotos.l3.fbcdn.net/hphotos-l3-ash1/hs774.ash1/166456_1707501577949_1550367655_31694948_4815799_n .jpg

Edit - another photo courtesy of Vorshlag, this one in a 3 series identical to mine:
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v4340/100/62/1550367655/n1550367655_30255991_5797872.jpg

As you can see, the motor will fit neatly next to the stock brake booster and master so nothing has to be changed there (ABS unit has been moved further forward and I will have to do the same in my car). Steering is also unchanged with one exception which is the stock BMW linkage between the steering column and the rack includes a big rubber connection point which is very close to one of the rear headers which would not stand the heat coming from the header. Luckily Vorshlag makes a very nice drop in aluminum linkage replacement which not only will deal with the heat but will also have the benefit of removing one of the points of "slop" in the stock steering arrangement.

The motor itself is actually lighter than the 6cyl it replaces by almost 20lbs with a full host of accessories thanks to its aluminum construction (although the T56 6-spd transmission is almost 30lbs heavier than the BMW 5spd so its a wash) and, as an added bonus, sits lower in the chassis and more rearward than the I6 (the V8 is completely behind the front of the shock towers as you can see while the I6 BMW motor extends almost another 4" forward).

As the days tick on I am getting more and more excited about this swap and am really looking forward to it, although everytime I identify a project that will have to be tackled, several more pop up, this really is going to be a project with 3 or 4 major steps and about a million "little" ones.

-Mark

[dangonay]

Dont be shy now what are you really trying to say? German engineering isn't reliable?

An M3 V8 spending it's entire life between 6500-8500 RPM on the track isn't the most reliable.

[Death2Theft]

So the ultimate driving machine isn't designed for that... then what is?

[MindBomber]

So the ultimate driving machine isn't designed for that... then what is?

A race car, tuned and built to spend it's entire life at high rpm...

An M3 is the ultimate street car.

[Volvo-brickster]

Dont be shy now what are you really trying to say? German engineering isn't reliable?

Im pretty sure he used to rock a tuned S4 amongst other things...don't think he is biased.:)

[CanadaGoose]

Im pretty sure he used to rock a tuned S4 amongst other things...don't think he is biased.:)

B5 or B6?

[daval]

B5 2.7T:thumbsup:

[R.A.R.E.01]

Is this M3 orange?

[Rich Sandor]

I'm fully onboard the LSxV8 powered bandwagon. Everyone I know who's done the swap into a Porsche or BMW, raves about it. They all say they wish they had done it sooner.

I've got enough seat time in vettes to know that the engine in stock form is glorious for racing. Parts are comparatively affordable, and the whole package is reliable. There are lots of kits for various cars, and there is a wealth of knowledge thats already out there.

You can be a fanboy and root for a jdm engine swap or you can be an elitist snob and root for keeping the oem engine, but at the end of the day, neither are as cost effective and efficient as an LSx swap. You can be 'that guy' who tries to do something different and original, but it always winds up costing wayyy more, taking way longer, and being less reliable.

[dangonay]

Is this M3 orange?

Pics (http://www.creagerimages.com/2010-Clients-1/The-BMW-Store-25-Hours-of/15169322_Zwzgy/1/1134610920_ep2Mq#1134610920_ep2Mq)

[mpr]

Nice Mark.

didn't know there is another lsx swap locally. think this is the 5th car i know locally. great stuff.


Interesting timing... I am actually in the process of an LS1 swap (which will grow into a lightly built LS6 once I blow up the "donor" motor) in my E36 3 series.

[lowside67]

Yeah I am really looking forward to it. I am at the point now where I have a solid base on the chassis, the car works really well, and it needed some power. My options were basically all the same price...

Twinscrew
+ Excellent torque curve, 400rwhp potential, relatively easy to install
- Major heat issues for track use, somewhat finicky

S54 (E46 M3 motor)
+ Easy to install (comparatively), BMW motor (hey I am still a BMW lover)
- Expensive to maintain, no real power options beyond approximately 315rwhp, relatively low torque levels

LS1 (Camaro motor)
+ Easy to find, reliable, tons of upgrade potential, naturally aspirated
- More complicated to install, not class legal for some classes

I chose the LS1 because the ultimate power goal for the car is 400rwhp, 400rwtq and it must be accomplished either NA or with an SC. For autocross especially, but track use in general, I much prefer the linear power delivery of NA or SC, turbos are great but on a rwd car at higher power levels, they are simply much harder to deliver the same driveability with. The LS1 is a starting point, once it's in the car, from there any LS motor will just bolt right in in a matter of hours. Once I blow this motor up, I will buy a crate motor LS6 Z06 motor and with a few small bolt ons, I will have 400rwhp in a reliable, nearly stock package with a flat torque curve and a 7000rpm redline. What's not to like?!?

-Mark

[Captain Bondo]

This is in a race car. An LS7 new with tranny would cost same as the M3 engine alone. Mounts are easy to weld up and making a driveshaft from the new tranny to mate with the diff would also be easy. Engine runs on a Pectel ECU so no problems making it work with the LS7. And the LS7 tuned would be 600HP whereas a tuned M3 barely makes more than a stock M3 since it's so highly tuned from the factory.

Then there's the reliability factor..
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What sort of racing class/series is it that having an engine block from a different manufacturer than the chassis is acceptable?

[lowside67]

The only road race classes that are accessible to amateurs that I know of is SCCA's SPO class. NASA also offers an unlimited class I believe but I'm not sure what it is called.

Personally, I am building my car for SCCA's "X-prepared" autocross class, CACC's GTO class for hillclimb, and the 2wd Open class for Pike's Peak.

Finally, not sure why all the love for the LS7 in this thread... they are extremely expensive direct from GM and the displacement is not necessary to make that kind of power. A LS6 crate motor direct from GM for a racer is $3600usd. An LS7 is approximately $11500usd. Many classes base minimum weight off of displacement so a 7.0L is at a disadvantage for that. For example, my car is required to weigh 2390lbs with a 5.7L for XP which it will make, with a 7.0L it would be required to weigh 2650. For much less than $10k you can have a brand new crate engine from a reputable builder that will make more power than the LS7 with the original 5.7L displacement.

-Mark

[dangonay]

What sort of racing class/series is it that having an engine block from a different manufacturer than the chassis is acceptable?

This car runs in the Thunderhill 25 hour race primarily and it's set up for endurance (you should see how thick the brake pads are). The car wasn't specifically built for a specific series or classification - to do that and be competitive against other teams is extremely difficult and expensive. The budget for this single race was over $20k. Nobody knows what the winning car spent but rumors are from $100-200k. They also hired professional drivers, and how can you expect to compete against that? This car would never win in unlimited class, but that doesn't mean the drivers aren't having the time of their lives.
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[originalhypa]

Looked at other motors. The guy who tuned this engine is the same guy who did the first ever BMW V10 aftermarket tune. That engine, some may remember, went into an E30.

:eek:

Now that is a hell of a swap. But dollar per HP, not much beats the GM lsx series. They're powerful, light, and compact. But most of all, simple to run and cheap. Plus the aftermarket for the lsx is really strong.

I get a laugh at the "old technology" comments, I assume that is in respect to some perception that overhead camshafts are some sort of "new technology".

Thank Honda, Toyota, and Mazda, and the fact that most of us cut our teeth on SOHC and DOHC import engines. The first motor I ever built was a 283, and it was a slug compared to the second motor I ever built which was a 4AGE from a Toyota GTS.

The "old tech" comes from the materials used, and the finishing of the final product. After a million+ SBC's were produced, not too many were finished like a mass produced import motor.

Still, this is what it's all about.
\/

You can be 'that guy' who tries to do something different and original, but it always winds up costing wayyy more, taking way longer, and being less reliable.

GM has the engine thing down with their ls series.

:woot2:

[Great68]

:eek:

Thank Honda, Toyota, and Mazda, and the fact that most of us cut our teeth on SOHC and DOHC import engines. The first motor I ever built was a 283, and it was a slug compared to the second motor I ever built which was a 4AGE from a Toyota GTS.

The "old tech" comes from the materials used, and the finishing of the final product. After a million+ SBC's were produced, not too many were finished like a mass produced import motor.



Fair enough. I like the simplicity of the old motors, I just helped my cousin rebuild his van's 350 two weekends ago. Bare fresh machined block, to installed & tuned well enough to drive in 16 hours. That included for the usual mistake of installing the distributor 180 out :p

[originalhypa]

hahaha, that's the classic mistake.
You figure it out when you shoot flame out of your carb.
:lol

I'm now tits deep in both a newer Subaru engine, and my classic 350 sbc. What frustrates me about the sbc is the fact that they didn't care much about engineering it. Once you get more into the high end SBC stuff, like serpentine systems and EFI, nicely done headers, etc then you get my attention. The SBC is built to be a cheap engine option, but man, once you start spending time on it, you can really make an SBC shine.

I love how Ford's new coyote series looks though. So hawt, with so many valves!
http://www.ontariostreetcar.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Ford-Coyote_02_issue_110_Original3.jpg

[maxx]

Mark....

I am dissapoint :(

[lowside67]

Dont be. I am forever a BMW enthusiast, if I wasnt, I would have simply sold the car and bought a Corvette or a tube frame car or any of a million other cheaper, faster, options. My daily is a BMW, my racecar is a BMW, the cars on my walls are BMWs.

In fact, it is because I love my E36 so much that I am doing this project. What I love about my BMW is the way it FEELS when I drive, and I am not changing that. What I dont love about my BMW is 205rwhp. And I am changing that!

-Mark

[R.A.R.E.01]

I say just DO IT ...... !