[scottsman]

QUEBEC — The debate on reasonable accommodation of religion differences in Quebec came into sharp focus Tuesday when four Sikhs were barred from entering the province's national assembly for refusing to remove their ceremonial daggers.

The four were coming to present their views on Bill 94, known as the niqab bill, which would require anyone dispensing or receiving government-paid services — including health and education — to show their faces.

"It is ironic that we were not accommodated at a hearing on accommodation," noted Balpreet Singh, one of the four Sikhs who showed up at the assembly wearing their ceremonial kirpans, secured under their clothing.

"It's (an) article of faith," Singh said, adding that Sikh men and women wear the kirpan all day, even in the shower and when they sleep.

"Accommodations have been made for the kirpan at the Parliament of Canada, at legislatures across Canada — B.C., Ontario and even at the Supreme Court of Canada," Singh noted.

"So we were hoping a similar accommodation could be made in Quebec."

Louise Beaudoin, chief provincial spokeswoman on Bill 94, defended the fact the four Sikhs were turned away.

"I agree with this decision," Beaudoin told reporters. "Security made this decision after reflecting and this decision is a good one."

On Tuesday, Beaudoin called Bill 94 "minimalist," and said the turning away of the Sikhs shows that the debate is broader.

In 2006, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled 8-0 that Gurbaj Singh Multani, a Montreal student, could wear a kirpan to school, that it was not a weapon and banning it would violate charter guarantees of freedom of religion.

"We did not agree with that decision," Beaudoin said. "We can disagree with the Supreme Court.

"Religious freedom exists but there are other values. Multiculturalism may be a Canadian value. But it is not a Quebec one.

"And we haven't signed the Constitution of Canada because it contains this notion of multiculturalism. I think we can be different."

Provincial Immigration Minister Kathleen Weil would not immediate comment on national assembly security staff's decision to refuse entry to the Sikh delegation.

"I would like to deliver a message to the Sikh community," the minister told reporters. "Quebec society is an open society, open to pluralism and that we will have an opportunity to exchange and that I hear their messages."

Without promising major amendments, Weil said she is open to clarifying Bill 94.

As the hearings ended Tuesday, Weil said most of those who had appeared agreed with the principle of equality of women and men and the idea that people must show their faces.

http://www.canada.com/life/Sikhs+wearing+kirpans+turned+away+Quebec+national+ assembly/4126151/story.html

How stupid are people to actually think bringing these Kirpans around would be a good idea? Especially in Quebec where I don't think they are quite as accepting of different religions and whatnot.

I am all for protecting peoples religious freedoms but this is just asking for attention. Next thing they will want to take this on an airplane.

[gars]

"Religious freedom exists but there are other values. Multiculturalism may be a Canadian value. But it is not a Quebec one.

"And we haven't signed the Constitution of Canada because it contains this notion of multiculturalism. I think we can be different."

I fucking hate Quebec sometimes - I understand protecting your own identity, but they take it too far. If you don't think you belong in a country, just get GTFO.

I'm a Chinese guy - but one of my best friends is a Singh, so I understand completely where they come from. I agree, that sometimes, there are people who try to push the boundaries, but they would never be stupid enough to bring their Kirpan onto a plane. I think it's completely fine for them to bring it to the Quebec National Assembly.

That said, I agree with the bill. In Canada, we use our faces as a way of identification. If you want to receive Gov't Services, I see no problem with them wanting to check your identity first. We're not going to go with a biometric database because of this.

[Jassanova]

These threads on RS always end up in someone saying something about creating their own religion so they can carry guns around freely while completely missing the point behind allowing the Sikh kirpan.

[Culture_Vulture]

Quebec is one of the main reasons Americans look at Canada and say, "lol, canaduh", the same way we look at Quebec and say, "lol, Quebecca".

[StylinRed]

Im quite surprised that Quebecers are so intolerant Albertans too

[Hondaracer]

albertans intollerant?

you dont get basically refused service in Alberta for not speaking french :P

[hchang]

Quebec's like that kind of mentally challenged kid in elementary school whom everybody thought was just so weird, but was forced to play with them anyways.

[Manic!]

aaaaaa

[StylinRed]

albertans intollerant?

you dont get basically refused service in Alberta for not speaking french :P

lol i guess ;)

i just remember having a discussion a couple years ago in a law class and the prof couldnt stand how racist/intolerant alberta is and it seemed every minority in class had a horror story about alberta

maybe they just made up stories to get on his good side ;)

[Manic!]

Im quite surprised that Quebecers are so intolerant Albertans too

http://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2/20101019/CGY_430_naheed_nenshi_101018_430241.jpg?2

http://www.canada.com/life/Sikhs+wearing+kirpans+turned+away+Quebec+national+ assembly/4126151/story.html

How stupid are people to actually think bringing these Kirpans around would be a good idea? Especially in Quebec where I don't think they are quite as accepting of different religions and whatnot.

I am all for protecting peoples religious freedoms but this is just asking for attention. Next thing they will want to take this on an airplane.


What do you want them to do stay at home because there is know way they will remove there kirpans. At one point in India's history it was illegal to wear a turban and people would get money for bringing in a stick with a Sikh head on it, and still Sikhs would not take off there turban.

[Manic!]

Double post.

[Sid Vicious]

you're never gonna reach a overwhelming consensus in society of how accommodating a country's laws should be to certain religious freedoms

[CRS]

So....This one time...

An Ontarian wanted to become a Newfie. He went to the neurosurgeon
and asked, 'Is there anything you can do to me
that would make me into a Newfie?'

'Sure it's easy.' replied the neurosurgeon. 'All I have to do is cut
out 1/3 of your brain, and you'll be a Newfie..'

He was very pleased, and immediately underwent the operation.
However, the neurosurgeon's knife slipped, and instead
of cutting 1/3 of the patient's brain, the surgeon accidentally cut
out 2/3 of the patient's brain.

He was terribly remorseful, and waited impatiently beside the
patient's bed as the patient recovered from the
anesthetic. As soon as the patient was conscious, the neurosurgeon
said to him 'I'm terribly sorry, but there was a
ghastly accident. Instead of cutting out 1/3 of your brain, I
accidentally cut out 2/3 of your brain.'

The patient replied 'Qu'est-ce que vous avez dit, monsieur?'

:troll:

[baggdis300]

honestly, quebec should leave canada, and take NB, NS, PEI and NFLD with them...

less paying welfare for broke ass eastern canada.

[MG1]

honestly, quebec should leave canada, and take NB, NS, PEI and NFLD with them...

less paying welfare for broke ass eastern canada.

OK, Quebec can go to hell, but the Atlantic Provinces stay. Throughout our country's history, they sacrificed many lives to protect our way of life - the two world wars. quebec, on the other hand, not so much.

Strange how their roots are from a country that was invaded by Germany, yet they had no desire to liberate it. Then again, the country of France fell to the Germans in record time. Too much 'gay Paris' and 'can can'......... Napoleon must be rolling in his grave..... "mon dieu, my people they are a wimps."

If there were such a thing as a bridge across the Atlantic to Canada, it's a good thing the Atlantic Provinces are there first, 'cause if there were an invasion and the quebecois were our first line of defence, we'd be screwed - they'd surrender before the first shot is fired. LOLOLOLOL.

As far as I'm concerned New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, and Newfoundland will always be part of Canada. They have earned the right and we owe them big time. If it weren't for the geographical location, quebec would be so kicked out - give them to the US! See how far they get with the Americans. "We want to keep our culture" Hell, no......... you are now going to melt in our pot!

Seriously, I like quebec. Without them, we'd have no poutine.

[Mr.C]

Strictly from an outsider's point of view (in a sense), I've always found it amusing how much Canada puts up with Quebec. They act like a spoiled child or something, geez.

[scottsman]

What do you want them to do stay at home because there is know way they will remove there kirpans. At one point in India's history it was illegal to wear a turban and people would get money for bringing in a stick with a Sikh head on it, and still Sikhs would not take off there turban.

We are not in India. Beheading people is slightly different from not allowing them to enter this assembly but I see how a reasonable person could make this comparison. :rolleyes:

I am not Sikh, but is it just as insulting to make someone take off their turban as it is to ask them to not wear a Kurpin? I am actually not really against people even wearing the Kurpins but common, pick your spots a bit better.

[Manic!]

We are not in India. Beheading people is slightly different from not allowing them to enter this assembly but I see how a reasonable person could make this comparison. :rolleyes:

I am not Sikh, but is it just as insulting to make someone take off their turban as it is to ask them to not wear a Kurpin? I am actually not really against people even wearing the Kurpins but common, pick your spots a bit better.

The whole point is they will not take them off. What if a Sikh gets elected to the Quebec legislature? Are they going his constituents the right for representation?

There are 5 things a Sikh must have on them at all times:

Kesh- uncut hair and beard, and a turban, the crown of spirituality.

Kangha- a wooden comb to properly groom the hair.
Kachera- specially made cotton underwear.

Kara- a steel circle, worn on the wrist.
Kirpan- the sword.

removing a kirpan is the same as removing a turban.

[Brianrietta]

What if a Sikh gets elected to the Quebec legislature?

Largely academic since out of 130ish people I'm pretty sure there's only one with a non-western ethnic background, Iranian born Amir Khadir.

[J-Chow]

whoa whoa whoa . . . .

Quebec can :gtfo: , but at least leave the hot chicks behind. :troll:

[Sky_2000]

White old people in Montreal are the biggest racist ever! I hate it when people tell me how nice it is in Montreal and how much of a party town it is here but the only place they have ever been to in Montreal is Downtown Montreal where the majority of English speaking people are. Sure the clubs and the night life here are way better then Vancouver but what major metropolis in North America isn't? One morning I was greeted with an awesome surprise! Turns out one of my neighbors hates me so much he went out of his way to order FRIED RICE and then proceeded to dump it all over my car! Awesome eh!

[Manic!]

Largely academic since out of 130ish people I'm pretty sure there's only one with a non-western ethnic background, Iranian born Amir Khadir.

What if Tim Uppal, Gurbax Malhi, or Navdeep Bains, who are all Sikhs and are members of parliament want to visit?

Is this a ban on all knives of just knives being held by people wearing turbans?

I bet a catering company could bring in all the knives they wanted.

[taylor192]

completely missing the point behind allowing the Sikh kirpan.
There's no "point" to wear the kirpan. It is an outdated religious formality based on society values that are not shared today.

Religion needs to adapt to modern values.

[taylor192]

The whole point is they will not take them off. What if a Sikh gets elected to the Quebec legislature? Are they going his constituents the right for representation?

There are 5 things a Sikh must have on them at all times:

Kesh- uncut hair and beard, and a turban, the crown of spirituality.

Kangha- a wooden comb to properly groom the hair.
Kachera- specially made cotton underwear.

Kara- a steel circle, worn on the wrist.
Kirpan- the sword.

removing a kirpan is the same as removing a turban.

I have underlined the most often broken tradition by those who want to wear the kirpan. Why is this broken? Cause society pressure to look good has trumped religion.. and the same should apply to the kirpan.

[taylor192]

What do you want them to do stay at home because there is know way they will remove there kirpans.
I would not move to a country where I felt oppressed. Perhaps they should move "home" where the rules are more accommodating.

Multiculturalism makes this country great, yet that does not mean bending over backwards for every minor issue. Most Sikhs in this country get by just fine without the kirpan.

[baggdis300]

If you say that then why the heck are Catholics so against abortions and divorce and pre marraige sex

They should get with the times and forget about all those things as well then


While we are at it might as well ask the Muslims to start eating pork and non halal meat cause times have changed

[taylor192]

If you say that then why the heck are Catholics so against abortions and divorce and pre marraige sex

They should get with the times and forget about all those things as well then
They should.

The majority of Sikhs in Canada do not wear turbans, like the majority of Catholics are not hard core and hold anti-abortion, homophobia, ... beliefs. It is funny that religion now only represents the few, not the many who are practicing yet choose to ignore many beliefs cause they do not fit into modern society.

[bloodmack]

They should.

The majority of Sikhs in Canada do not wear turbans, like the majority of Catholics are not hard core and hold anti-abortion, homophobia, ... beliefs. It is funny that religion now only represents the few, not the many who are practicing yet choose to ignore many beliefs cause they do not fit into modern society.

A lot of religions these days are just casual, I don't know many people who follow a religion because its their actual beliefs. Its just so people can identify themselves in society. Religion is and always will be a plague. I have followed both the Sikh and catholic religions in my lifetime and I have seen the same thing from both sides, bending the "rules".

[Manic!]

They should.

The majority of Sikhs in Canada do not wear turban

All baptized Sikhs wear turbans.

[Manic!]

I have underlined the most often broken tradition by those who want to wear the kirpan. Why is this broken?.
Because people would not hire them if they had a turban on. Many Sikhs who came 40 plus years ago cut there hair so they could put food on the table. Many of those people now have put there turbans back on.

[taylor192]

All baptized Sikhs wear turbans.
So? I could point out many people who will claim they are Sikh yet do not wear a turban.

All your point highlights is the number of people who will wear the kirpan is very small, and we should not be bending security rules to cater to such a minority.

[originalhypa]

Funny how we bitch about the Chinese not wanting a hospice in their backyard, yet most of us are intolerant of Quebecois culture. Having lived there I will be the first to admit that there were a lot of ignorant people in Quebec regarding language. Before I could speak french, I would be damn near abused by mostly low class french. The guy pumping my gas, or the waitress at the local diner for example. Professionals like the ones I was dealing with were always a lot more compassionate.

I'm the first to shit on Quebec's arrogance and intolerance. But that said, they truly believe in their culture, and know that if it's not protected, they're doomed to be like the rest of Canada, who frankly has no culture.

[Manic!]

So? I could point out many people who will claim they are Sikh yet do not wear a turban.

All your point highlights is the number of people who will wear the kirpan is very small, and we should not be bending security rules to cater to such a minority.

Lots of people claim there catholic, but how many abstain form having sex or being married?

[taylor192]

Lots of people claim there catholic, but how many abstain form having sex or being married?
Now the next question: are there laws against those choices?

There's laws against carrying weapons. If you want to compare apples-apples, pick a better Catholic belief that is illegal.

[baggdis300]

the kirpan is not a freaking weapon

hell sometimes its just the cover with a handle in it...

or if theres a blade its NOT sharpened at all.

so its no more of a weapon than a spoon.

[taylor192]

the kirpan is not a freaking weapon

hell sometimes its just the cover with a handle in it...

or if theres a blade its NOT sharpened at all.

so its no more of a weapon than a spoon.

Here's a simple test:
1. Walk through airport security with a spoon
2. Walk through airport security with a fake mini sword

Let me know the result.

A weapon is what we distinguish it to be, ie a societal norm. Canadians do not believe we have the right to carry weapons, despite our lack of a distinguishable culture, this is pretty much universally true.

[Manic!]

Here's a simple test:
1. Walk through airport security with a spoon
2. Walk through airport security with a fake mini sword

Let me know the result.

A weapon is what we distinguish it to be, ie a societal norm. Canadians do not believe we have the right to carry weapons, despite our lack of a distinguishable culture, this is pretty much universally true.

Are we talking about airports???
Anyways you can bring knives on a plane you just have to put them in checked baggage.

FYI: it is not illegal to carry a knife in Canada.

[ruthless]

Read it you'll gain something....hopefully
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirpan#Legality

so much fail in here, i just cant... :facepalm:

[taylor192]

Are we talking about airports???
Anyways you can bring knives on a plane you just have to put them in checked baggage.
Sikhs are required to wear the kirpan, otherwise I completely agree, put it in checked baggage. Much like attending school, leave it at home.

FYI: it is not illegal to carry a knife in Canada.
It is very illegal to carry certain knives in public, and you're welcome to read the Constant Companion law and the references to concealed weapons.

I think this one statement sums it all up: Since 9/11 boxcutters are no longer just boxcutters.

There's been a couple incidents of kirpans used as weapons, in particular at schools that do have 100% knife bans.

[Manic!]

Sikhs are required to wear the kirpan, otherwise I completely agree, put it in checked baggage. Much like attending school, leave it at home.


It is very illegal to carry certain knives in public, and you're welcome to read the Constant Companion law and the references to concealed weapons.

I think this one statement sums it all up: Since 9/11 boxcutters are no longer just boxcutters.

There's been a couple incidents of kirpans used as weapons, in particular at schools that do have 100% knife bans.
Here is the Criminal Code definition of a prohibited knife
"prohibited weapon" means
(a) a knife that has a blade that opens automatically by gravity or centrifugal force or by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to the handle of the knife, or
(b) any weapon, other than a firearm, that is prescribed to be a prohibited weapon;

[MindBomber]

"Religious freedom exists but there are other values. Multiculturalism may be a Canadian value. But it is not a Quebec one.

"And we haven't signed the Constitution of Canada because it contains this notion of multiculturalism. I think we can be different."

Multiculturalism is a part of what makes this country great, although the residents of some provinces may have a more American approach to race relations than others, overall I believe most Canadians are proud of our countries diversity. Beaudoin doesn't speak for all Quebecers, only the racist biggots in the province; just like Steven Harper doesn't speak for all Canadians.

[Graeme S]

This was a security issue in a montreal highschool a few years back, and the solution was that the kid could wear it but had to keep it in a sealed "envelope" which meant he couldn't get access to the weapon.

Is there any part of the religion which requires you to take the knife out other than during ceremonial rites? If not, why not just put a rivet through the blade and scabbard. Yes, you have a knife. No, you can't ever take it out.

Problem solved.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[ruthless]

This was a security issue in a montreal highschool a few years back, and the solution was that the kid could wear it but had to keep it in a sealed "envelope" which meant he couldn't get access to the weapon.

Is there any part of the religion which requires you to take the knife out other than during ceremonial rites? If not, why not just put a rivet through the blade and scabbard. Yes, you have a knife. No, you can't ever take it out.

Problem solved.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

The kirpan is both a defensive weapon and a symbol. Physically it is an instrument of "ahimsa" or non-violence. The principle of ahimsa is to actively prevent violence, not to simply stand by idly whilst violence is being done. To that end, the kirpan is a tool to be used to prevent violence from being done to a defenseless person when all other means to do so have failed. Symbolically, the kirpan represents the power of truth to cut through untruthhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirpan#Legality

It may be necessary to use it in certain circumstances so a "rivet" will not be appropriate...

[Manic!]

why not just put a rivet through the blade and scabbard. Yes, you have a knife. No, you can't ever take it out.

Problem solved.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirpan#Legality

In New York City a compromise was reached with the Board of Education whereby the wearing of the knives was allowed so long as they were secured within the sheaths with adhesives and made impossible to draw.

[impactX]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirpan#Legality

It may be necessary to use it in certain circumstances so a "rivet" will not be appropriate...

Just curious, what's the use of a dull knife in a self-defense?

[Manic!]

Just curious, what's the use of a dull knife in a self-defense?

The Kirpan is used for many other rituals that Sikhs have to perform in their daily lives. When a Sikh does ardas before the Guru Granth Sahib, the kirpan is used to .... the offering of food (or Kara parshad) to Akal Purakh (Almighty Lord).

Lots of good info here.

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Kirpan_is_not_a_weapon

[scottsman]

I bet a catering company could bring in all the knives they wanted.

I am not sure if you are trying to troll or not but either way after reading this comment I now know that you are a fucking idiot.

That is like saying Air Marshals are allowed to carry guns on planes so why can't I.

[Manic!]

I am not sure if you are trying to troll or not but either way after reading this comment I now know that you are a fucking idiot.

Go put on some underwear.

[scottsman]

Because people would not hire them if they had a turban on. Many Sikhs who came 40 plus years ago cut there hair so they could put food on the table. Many of those people now have put there turbans back on.

If they did this then why not take off the Kirpan for a few hours? At least no one cut thier head off.

Hey I think some more Tamils are headed this way..... you better get to the docks and welcome them in illegally.

[gars]

I've been doing research for a bit - haven't found much on assaults with a Kirpan in Canada. The only one the one in Brampton outside a Gurdwara. I found one about a kid who allegedly pulled it out and threatened his bullies - but the only witnesses were the 2 kids bullying him - and the judge said he only used his hairpin.

[Graeme S]

Genuine curiosity, I have no idea how this works in sikh culture.

The wiki says some kirpans are three feet long, but typically Canadian ones are three or so inches; is there a prohibition from owning two kirpans? One daily-use one that would be permanently secured, and another to be work to Temple or for other ceremonies?
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[baggdis300]

lol honestly, a devoted sikh will NOT pull the knife on just anyone for any reason.

they are extremely ANTI violence.

if anything id be more worried about some redneck white guy that carries a knife on his waist than a religious person.

[Manic!]

If they did this then why not take off the Kirpan for a few hours? At least no one cut thier head off.

Hey I think some more Tamils are headed this way..... you better get to the docks and welcome them in illegally.



So how did the Scotts get here?

[Manic!]

Genuine curiosity, I have no idea how this works in sikh culture.

The wiki says some kirpans are three feet long, but typically Canadian ones are three or so inches; is there a prohibition from owning two kirpans? One daily-use one that would be permanently secured, and another to be work to Temple or for other ceremonies?
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

No one wears a 3 foot long Kirpans for daily use and you can own as many as
you want. Some just wear tiny ones around the neck.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/attachments/united-states/3149d1278645802-wsc-ar-condemns-board-trustees-gurdwara-kirpan-necklace.jpg

Just for laughs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci_5JxXdU04

[deep87]

^:haha:at the fat guy trying to be diplomatic at the end.

"And we haven't signed the Constitution of Canada because it contains this notion of multiculturalism. I think we can be different."-Quebec

Quebec needs to be put in its place. Abide by the same rules as the rest of Canada if you wanna piece of the pie or gtfo. Honestly a sharp pencil is as much of a weapon as a kirpan. Quebec was just making a statement with this incident. They dont want multiculturalism and frankly I they don't deserve it.

What really bugs me is mandatory french for the rest of canada in school. It should be optional at most.

[Mr.C]

^:haha:at the fat guy trying to be diplomatic at the end.

"And we haven't signed the Constitution of Canada because it contains this notion of multiculturalism. I think we can be different."-Quebec

Quebec needs to be put in its place. Abide by the same rules as the rest of Canada if you wanna piece of the pie or gtfo. Honestly a sharp pencil is as much of a weapon as a kirpan. Quebec was just making a statement with this incident. They dont want multiculturalism and frankly I they don't deserve it.

What really bugs me is mandatory french for the rest of canada in school. It should be optional at most.

Wait, Quebec didn't sign the constitution? Just kick them out then. BC could use all those incentives that are sent to Quebec.

Or just kick them out, then we invade and conquer them. They're French, should be easy :p

[scottsman]

Manic! why does everything you say reference unrelated events in history that have nothing to do with what is happening today? What does it matter how Scottish people came to Canada? That has nothing to do with illegal immigration from Sri Lanka. How does comparing what went on in India prove a point with what is the present reality in Canada?

I am actually interested to know how you think these prove your point.

[Manic!]

Manic! why does everything you say reference unrelated events in history that have nothing to do with what is happening today? What does it matter how Scottish people came to Canada? That has nothing to do with illegal immigration from Sri Lanka. How does comparing what went on in India prove a point with what is the present reality in Canada?

I am actually interested to know how you think these prove your point.

My reference to India is that Sikhs would rather die than be forced to remove there articles of faith.

[scottsman]

please reference these mass beheadings.

My reference to India is that Sikhs would rather die than be forced to remove there articles of faith.

Because people would not hire them if they had a turban on. Many Sikhs who came 40 plus years ago cut there hair so they could put food on the table. Many of those people now have put there turbans back on.

[Culture_Vulture]

Im quite surprised that Quebecers are so intolerant Albertans too
Alberta got the influx of East Asian and Indian immigrants much more recently (as opposed to, say BC), with an already existing European minority population. It's not that hard to understand. The good news is, my ex is from Alberta and she says it's gotten much better since 5-10 years ago.

[Gary Oak]

Multiculturalism may be a Canadian value. But it is not a Quebec one.
this is why I hate quebec !
and because we have to learn french

[vitaminG]

please reference these mass beheadings.

here you go you ignorant fuck

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Gurdwara_Shahidi_Asthaan_Baba_Banda_Singh_Bahadur

He was offered the usual choice of death or conversion to Islam but like all his companions he chose death. He was ordered to kill his own four-year-old son Ajai Singh but he refused. Thereafter they butchered the innocent child. His heart was cut out and forced into Banda's mouth.

example of someone who would rather be scalped than cut his hair and renounce his religion:

Bhai Taru Singh ji
Bhai Taru Singh ji was a resident of village Puhle in Amritsar. He provided hospitality to Sikhs who happened to be passing by, and would get Langar (free kitchen) prepared and distributed to Sikhs living in the jungles. In those days there would rewards for those who led to arrest of Sikhs. Someone, in the want of such reward gave the establishment information on Bhai Taru Singh ji and he got arrested. He was asked to give up Sikhism, but to him Sikhism was dearer than his life - he refused. He was lured and tortured but he feared nothing, and the Mughals were unsuccessful in making him give up his ideals. Punishment was announced, which was that his hair would be shorn - but he refused to allow his hair to be dishonored. The heartless people removed his skull using saws. He became a martyr, but did not allow his hair to be dishonored. Bhai Taru Singh lived up to his Sikh requirements by not getting his hair shaved.

(accompanying graphic image)
http://www.sikhiwallpapers.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/bhai-taru-singh-ji.jpg



heres some other examples of why baptised sikhs are reluctant to give up their kirpan (graphic photos)


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4068/4446445498_3f8b4a9959.jpg
http://www.gurmat.info/sms/smsarticles/sikhmartyrs/bandasinghbahadur/muslimscarryingsikhheads.jpg
http://www.gurmat.info/sms/smsarticles/essaysonsikhvalues/subegandshahbaz.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6QAPpxmMJo8/SSmXYkEZvBI/AAAAAAAAAI0/sniUgbM8vJI/s400/pic29.jpg
http://www.sikhzone.com/uploads/01/85/85.jpg

[Teh Doucher]

if all the sheep in this world were able to realize that they themselves are idiots and that the religions they follow are fucking retarded and completely pointless, the world would be a much better place.

[LiquidTurbo]

^
Thanks for today's moment of mental masturbation.

[LiquidTurbo]

If the Kirpan is 'not a weapon' and strictly symbolic, why not simply reduce it down to a symbolic knife on a necklace and call it a day?

[Revive]

^^In Sikhism, the Kirpan and weapon do not even belong in the same sentence. Because of the western society, the Sikh's have been forced to defend the Kirpan as not being a "weapon" for their sake. If people actually knew the true meaning behind SIKHISM, then the Kirpan would not even be an issue in today's society. At the end of the day, reducing it down to "symbolic knife" will still be considered "a weapon" by the ignorant.

The bigger issue here is that the Quebec legislature will always do things differently just to create difference within their legislature and the rest of Canada. And to be honest, Quebec can go fuk themselves (except GSP and Scwartz).

[Graeme S]

^^In Sikhism, the Kirpan and weapon do not even belong in the same sentence. Because of the western society, the Sikh's have been forced to defend the Kirpan as not being a "weapon" for their sake. If people actually knew the true meaning behind SIKHISM, then the Kirpan would not even be an issue in today's society. At the end of the day, reducing it down to "symbolic knife" will still be considered "a weapon" by the ignorant.

The bigger issue here is that the Quebec legislature will always do things differently just to create difference within their legislature and the rest of Canada. And to be honest, Quebec can go fuk themselves (except GSP and Scwartz).

Then why not simply have two, as I suggested? One permanently secured for public use, and another that can be taken out for ceremonial use?

Almost all religions find some kind of compromise, though admittedly not all in the same way or the same type. Can't we work to try and find one here?
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[LiquidTurbo]

^^In Sikhism, the Kirpan and weapon do not even belong in the same sentence. Because of the western society, the Sikh's have been forced to defend the Kirpan as not being a "weapon" for their sake. If people actually knew the true meaning behind SIKHISM, then the Kirpan would not even be an issue in today's society. At the end of the day, reducing it down to "symbolic knife" will still be considered "a weapon" by the ignorant.

The bigger issue here is that the Quebec legislature will always do things differently just to create difference within their legislature and the rest of Canada. And to be honest, Quebec can go fuk themselves (except GSP and Scwartz).

That's great. But the rest of the world sees knifes as a possible weapon.

I disagree. Symbolic knife worn around the neck cannot seen as a weapon.

[Manic!]

That's great. But the rest of the world sees knifes as a possible weapon.

I disagree. Symbolic knife worn around the neck cannot seen as a weapon.

You would think so but not everyone has common sense.

The Kirpan ban is not about safety but about discrimination.

[Xnova86]

LOL the Sikhs back in the day are way different that now. These fuckin young SIKHs (Post 80 generation) drinks, smoke weed, sling drugs while at the same time wearing a fucking turban. HYPOCRITES!

[darkfroggy]

You would think so but not everyone has common sense.

The Kirpan ban is not about safety but about discrimination.

Really? How can you prove that?

The kirban, a ceremonial knife, is preventing them from entering the National Assembly... not their skin colour or religion.

Common sense dictates that you don't bring potentially dangerous objects into discussions that can occasionally get very heated.

[scottsman]

here you go you ignorant fuck

Why does asking for a reference to these beheadings make me ignorant? Someone made reference to something in History and I am only trying to learn more about it... I tried googling these events in history but with no luck.. Only trying to understand the discussion better.

Penis Head.

Manic! was comparing these beheadings to modern day situations. If this took place recently then perhaps it could be relevant.... 200 years ago, not so much.

[Manic!]

Really? How can you prove that?

The kirban, a ceremonial knife, is preventing them from entering the National Assembly... not their skin colour or religion.

Common sense dictates that you don't bring potentially dangerous objects into discussions that can occasionally get very heated.

Because Sikh members of Parliament have been wearing them for years in Ottawa buy the Bloc yesterday proposed a law banning them.


The national assembly’s decision to prevent access to people carrying the kirpan is completely legitimate,” said Bloc whip Claude DeBellefeuille in a statement.

Read more: http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/politics/Bloc+proposal+Sikh+kirpans+Parliament+called+Canad ian/4134967/story.html#ixzz1Bdf0Hy4Y


Look how they just talk about the Kirpan and not knives in general.

[Great68]

they are extremely ANTI violence.


:Orly:

That's quite the statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Flight_182

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh_extremism

I bet the ones that bombed Air India thought they were devoted Sikhs...

[Manic!]

:Orly:

That's quite the statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Flight_182

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh_extremism

I bet the ones that bombed Air India thought they were devoted Sikhs...

But they did not use there kirpans. :troll:

[ruthless]

:Orly:

That's quite the statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Flight_182

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh_extremism

I bet the ones that bombed Air India thought they were devoted Sikhs...

Theres ALWAYs going to be retards and a few bad apples that do stupid shit REGARDLESS of their religion...

[ruthless]

A bunch of racist garbage.
http://safeforlunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/NotSureIfSerious1.jpg

:facepalm::facepalm:

[LiquidTurbo]

Are you serious? Of course he's serious.

[gars]

From the Montreal Gazette

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/hs049.snc6/167914_145264362196823_114503541939572_268137_8436 75_n.jpg

[1990TSI]

I love quebec.

That is all.