[TheNewGirl]

So. Pigs fly.

As a consumer I loathe and hate the HST, I fall into the very small margin of people though that's hit the worst by it though. As someone who does the books for small business though... I have to admit (grudgingly), it's made life easier and more importantly, it has, I admit, positively impacted the financial well being of the companies I work for. (Let it never be said that I can't eat crow now and then).

Now. I don't think the system is flawless. There are big glaring differences between it's stated goals and how it functions that most people (unless they're doing book keeping or accounting for a large company, probably aren't aware of). And I still think things need to be addressed about these issues, but with the exception of claimable caps for large corps, I think they're largely PR problems on the government's part.

The government said this was going to be a revenue neutral tax... it turns out that's untrue. But unlike our previous government, Christie Clark's actually asking people what they want to do with that revenue (I'm pretty sure there's still a thing for feedback on the provincial gov's web site if you haven't already sent in some input but even better, take 10 minutes to write an email to your MLA).

Any how, recently I was looking over some of the new studies that have come out about the HST, which I hope everyone else will do the same.

Someone sent me this video which while it's about 15 minutes long, has some useful information. Now, the guy's clearly biased so, critical thinking caps on, but he does make some very good points.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZXu3LXNwEg&feature=player_embedded

[drunkrussian]

There are income taxes at the end of the year which take into account my income. There are also taxes which are charged for certain items because analysis was done that I should be paying more or less for those items. There are also fees, also based on income and other factors, for things such as gasoline or liquor, which are indirect ways of taxing people and generating revenue.

The HST charges every person of every income, for every good they buy, all the time. I don't need to read anymore about this to know that this is not fair.

[Levitron]

That guy sounds like Seth Rogen.

[murd0c]

If they show how the extra money is being used then I maybe for it but if they just go out buying ipads for everyone or use it for bigger bonuses why should I be for the HST?

[TheNewGirl]

That's where stand too. I want to know exactly where the profits are going. Christie Clark's made a few suggestions of things the government's willing to explore (I still favor dropping the tax by 1%) but I wish they would pick one BEFORE the vote.

[gars]

That's where stand too. I want to know exactly where the profits are going. Christie Clark's made a few suggestions of things the government's willing to explore (I still favor dropping the tax by 1%) but I wish they would pick one BEFORE the vote.

I'd rather drop income tax than drop sales tax. I know spending stimulates the economy - but in our culture of credit cards, I'd rather be encouraged to save my money.

[TheKingdom2000]

I'd rather drop income tax than drop sales tax. I know spending stimulates the economy - but in our culture of credit cards, I'd rather the be encouraged to save my money.

I agree, a drop in income tax would be far better for the individual. I mean, if you don't consume as much as the other guy in your same tax bracket you are actually saving more.

[carisear]

problem is, people don't 'see' that tax savings.

drop HST by a percent and everyone notices immediately.

this has been the problem forever. What is better for you, will not win you any votes.

[TheKingdom2000]

problem is, people don't 'see' that tax savings.

drop HST by a percent and everyone notices immediately.

this has been the problem forever. What is better for you, will not win you any votes.

I know. People just don't understand what the hell is going on.
I swear, they turn a blind eye on purpose.

[Gridlock]

LOL...I have said this from the very beginning.

Get ready. Gonna solve some problems.

Can you see Gordo giving this speech? He'd still be premier.

Hst. Boom! Gotta do it. A billion dollars and change for the province.

HST is gonna affect more goods than our current tax system. So, right now a lot of goods are getting hit with 12%, and some are only 5%. What we're gonna do is make the HST 10% and nuke the PST. Savings for business. Savings for consumers. No annoying PST returns.

Done.

Send the MLA's out to sell it to the people and anytime someone bitches...you have "but its 10% which means you SAVE when you buy the following items: list em out"

Fuck. I should run as premier.

[Gridlock]

So. Pigs fly.

As a consumer I loathe and hate the HST, I fall into the very small margin of people though that's hit the worst by it though. As someone who does the books for small business though... I have to admit (grudgingly), it's made life easier and more importantly, it has, I admit, positively impacted the financial well being of the companies I work for. (Let it never be said that I can't eat crow now and then).

Now. I don't think the system is flawless. There are big glaring differences between it's stated goals and how it functions that most people (unless they're doing book keeping or accounting for a large company, probably aren't aware of). And I still think things need to be addressed about these issues, but with the exception of claimable caps for large corps, I think they're largely PR problems on the government's part.

The government said this was going to be a revenue neutral tax... it turns out that's untrue. But unlike our previous government, Christie Clark's actually asking people what they want to do with that revenue (I'm pretty sure there's still a thing for feedback on the provincial gov's web site if you haven't already sent in some input but even better, take 10 minutes to write an email to your MLA).

Any how, recently I was looking over some of the new studies that have come out about the HST, which I hope everyone else will do the same.

Someone sent me this video which while it's about 15 minutes long, has some useful information. Now, the guy's clearly biased so, critical thinking caps on, but he does make some very good points.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZXu3LXNwEg&feature=player_embedded

That video has its own bias thats a little disturbing too.

Like when he talks about people buying new homes and how no body goes and buys a brand new home or something to that affect, so discussing the tax ramifications are useless.

Um, condos? People, regular people buy them all the time. Shit, we bought a shrink wrapped townhouse and we're broke.

Its at 8:23.

And to add: Of course its not revenue neutral! I'm a contractor. Used to charge 5% on top for GST, now charge 12%...more than double.

Funny thing is...I look at the sub-total as my number, but my clients look at Total. My business has not changed. I don't get to keep any tax. Yes, I get to rebate my HST on inputs, but realistically, all that is is pre-paying the HST that I submit. I never look at the final total. Not my money. But its my clients money, and all they look at is how much the check is.

So this wonderful change that is supposed to make me all kinds of money? Nope.

Yes, I don't have to eat PST anymore. Cool. Let's look at that:

Small job...$5000...plus tax.

Old system:

sub-$5000
GST-250
Total-5250

Let's say my materials are 35%. And lets assume I paid PST on everything.
materials-1750
PST-122.5

So I "ate" $122.5. Technically, I passed it on to my client, but its hard to say, because of the nature of a quoted job.

New system:

sub-5000
HST-600
Total-$5600

Same materials: 1750
No PST(charged hst of $210, but claim it back)

So, I "save" $122.50, but it costs my client an extra $350! That can be the difference in whether they do the project or not.

Thanks governments of BC and Canada. Stop by and help my business anytime!

[Gt-R R34]

The main flaw of our system is that -

It lets the minority dictate what the majority wants.

200 people kicking, screaming, yelling and pounding on the govenment long enough, the government will eventually cave and give them what they want while the rest of the 2 million that doesn't want to say anything but really thinks thats bullshit gets utterly shafted but don't speak up.

That's how life goes, unless the unjust is to great then that's what happening in Middle East and that took 40 years.

But off topic -

So If you want or don't want this HST. Vote On it.

[TheNewGirl]

Oh I agree, as I said, the video is clearly bias.

It DOES though present some interesting counter points.

But ultimately I think the problem is that the general public doesn't interact with the HST in a way that allows them to understand exactly what it does.

As I said, I was staunchly against it. It does cost me a few hundred extra dollars a year (especially coming up to the summer time when my costs are at their peak) and that sucks. If I didn't have the job that I have I would probably still be staunchly against it.

But, working with the input and output credits daily, and seeing how it takes the burden of paying that huge PST bill every month off of my company's budget and allows me to use more of the money I take in, I understand how it better serves especially small businesses from a cash flow and cash savings perspective.

[taylor192]

The government said this was going to be a revenue neutral tax... it turns out that's untrue. But unlike our previous government, Christie Clark's actually asking people what they want to do with that revenue
Either reduce the HST or reduce income tax.

[taylor192]

The main flaw of our system is that -

It lets the minority dictate what the majority wants.

The flaw isn't the system, its the people. People are more than capable of affecting change in our system, they chose not to so the minority gets heard.

[taylor192]

The HST charges every person of every income, for every good they buy, all the time. I don't need to read anymore about this to know that this is not fair.
What is not "fair" about that? Everyone should pay for what they use, that is the most fair - especially for choices like eating at restaurants which is a luxury, not a staple. If you can afford to eat out, you can afford to pay your fair share - my taxes should not subsidize that choice.

Do not take that comment 100%, tiered income tax should still exist so the better off in society subsidize the worse off. I'm talking about subsidizing people's choices, especially luxuries.

[Soundy]

There are income taxes at the end of the year which take into account my income. There are also taxes which are charged for certain items because analysis was done that I should be paying more or less for those items. There are also fees, also based on income and other factors, for things such as gasoline or liquor, which are indirect ways of taxing people and generating revenue.

The HST charges every person of every income, for every good they buy, all the time. I don't need to read anymore about this to know that this is not fair.

First of all, this is false: as with all other taxes, there are exemptions.

Second, the vast majority of items you bought before already had the SAME level of tax on them (5% GST + 7% PST). There are a RELATIVELY SMALL number of items that were charged GST and were PST-exempt before, that you now pay an extra 7% on. One thing that's also overlooked is that anything that had PST but no GST before... now has no HST.

Third, a consumption tax is ultimately more fair than an income tax: you buy something, you pay; you don't buy, you don't pay. Buy something cheaper, pay less tax. Go ballin', pay more tax.

Income taxes ding you whether you're buying things or not.

[TheKingdom2000]

There are ONLY TWO downsides to the HST I have come across. And only one of them affect me.

1) paying more when you go out and buy shit. ie. food/clothes (groceries still exempted)
2) restaurants losing money
I read a report of restaurants losing business because of the new HST and their revenues are down. I also read something about some other small businesses that the HST has negatively affected them.

Are there anymore I missed?

Otherwise, the benefits seems to outweigh both of those for me, especially since #2 doesn't directly affect me since I do not own a restaurant.

[gars]

1) paying more when you go out and buy shit. ie. food/clothes (groceries still exempted)


When have you ever not had to pay PST on clothing? Unless you were one of those idiots who say you're buying clothing for a 14 yr old, and trying to scam your way out of it...

[Soundy]

I honestly believe a lot of The Restaurant Industry's woes with the HST are self-inflected. The minute it was announced, their spokespeople were all over the media proclaiming how this would jack prices and people would be staying away in droves, and... well... it happened a little bit.

But when's the last time they raised their prices by 7%? Did people avoid eating out then? Did the industry die a horrible death when the GST first came in at 7%? Umm... no.

Seriously, if they'd just kept their collective mouths shut, the vast majority of people would never have noticed the difference (especially if they didn't print "HST" in HUGE letters at the bottom of the bill) and they'd have seen little or NO impact.

Think about it: what did you pay for a meal out before the HST came in? Come on now, tell me quickly... can't do it? Okay, now what do you pay for the EXACT SAME MEAL at the SAME RESTAURANT today, with the HST? Can't tell that either without looking? How many people do YOU know who always order the same thing at the same place every time they eat there, and compare prices one visit to the next? You can cause more than a 7% difference in your own bill by ordering your Caesar Keg-sized instead of regular. Or by getting a salad instead of fries.

The ONLY time it's even been obvious to me was that I used to be able to get a McDouble, small fries and drink with a $5 bill... now I have to scrounge an extra 10 cents or so. Minor inconvenience.

If the Industry hadn't been bleating about how it was going to bankrupt people to eat out, NOBODY WOULD HAVE KNOWN THE DIFFERENCE, OR CARED. SELF-INFLICTED WOUND.

[Roach]

There are ONLY TWO downsides to the HST I have come across. And only one of them affect me.

1) paying more when you go out and buy shit. ie. food/clothes (groceries still exempted)
2) restaurants losing money
I read a report of restaurants losing business because of the new HST and their revenues are down. I also read something about some other small businesses that the HST has negatively affected them.

Are there anymore I missed?

Otherwise, the benefits seems to outweigh both of those for me, especially since #2 doesn't directly affect me since I do not own a restaurant.

I don't think it's fair to blame the problems with the restaurant industry solely on HST. The new drinking and driving laws have also adversely affected their sales.

Realistically, when I go out to dinner, I'm not going to eat less because of an increase in tax. However, I will drink nothing if I'm being threatened to have my car taken away.

http://www.hospitalitybusinessnews.com/article/10528/new-tax-and-dui-laws-hurt-british-columbia-restaurants-and-bars

Kev

[taylor192]

I honestly believe a lot of The Restaurant Industry's woes with the HST are self-inflected.

I don't think it's fair to blame the problems with the restaurant industry solely on HST.

The restaurant industry expanded as much if not more than the real estate industry, creating a bubble that was bound to be popped by a recession. People eat out when they have extra money to do so, and right now money is tighter even without the HST - the HST and drinking laws just serve as good scapegoats for an industry due for a correction.

[Mr.HappySilp]

Either way the gov only wants our money one way or another.

About the whole restaurant thing. I think is totally BS they blame it on the HST. I use to eat at this place at crystal mall (food court) before HST they charge about $5.50 for a meal. As soon as HST came in place they charge me $7.50! I do not think HST is an increase of $2. So I stop going there and eat more often at home. Don't blame HST for the lost sales when business decide to jack up their price.

[Roach]

Either way the gov only wants our money one way or another.

About the whole restaurant thing. I think is totally BS they blame it on the HST. I use to eat at this place at crystal mall (food court) before HST they charge about $5.50 for a meal. As soon as HST came in place they charge me $7.50! I do not think HST is an increase of $2. So I stop going there and eat more often at home. Don't blame HST for the lost sales when business decide to jack up their price.

It's funny you mention that. A place I frequent also did the same thing. Once July 1st hit, they upped their pricing across the board about 10%. When I questioned it, they tried to blame the HST. Ridiculous. Stopped going there.

Kev

[gars]

Funny thing - I'm sure a lot of those restaurants in Crystal Mall don't pay all their taxes - Just like how there are a few restaurants I've been to that will take the tax off if you pay cash.

And with the HST - people actually save 5% of taxes with Alcohol - I know Restaurants blame the new drinking/driving laws for lower alcohol sales, but shouldn't they be benefiting from higher sales before those new laws were put into place?

[TheKingdom2000]

Yeah, I wasn't too convinced on the Restaurant thing. But, even if that were somewhat true, it still doesn't affect most of us.

I just want to gather as much info as possible because come voting time for the HST i'm going to send out a massive facebook message to all my friends outlining how the HST is beneficial to us.
And list the pro's and con's so people can really understand how the HST affects them.

I'm going to be really choked if people vote Yes to axe the HST (Or is it NO? to axe the HST, i'm confused about that). We'll lose $1.6billion instantly to the federal govt. plus the millions to get the pst/gst system back and the millions we already invested to change the pst/gst system to the HST system.

[TheKingdom2000]

One more question on the HST vote.

I read this,
The Recall and Initiative Act says the measure needs the support of 50 percent of registered voters—everyone on the voters list, not just those who vote—plus a majority of registered voters in two-thirds of the province's 85 constituencies.

So say there are 1 million registered voters in BC (just throwing out a number)
So for the vote to pass 500,001 people must vote to get rid of the HST?

So if only 700,000 registered voters come out and vote and 400,000 of them vote to get rid of the HST, that still won't be enough to get rid of it?

[Sp0r3]

I totally understand the principles of HST which makes it a better than the GST/PST system we had before (in theory). But think about this. The current business owners who requires to pay the intermediate taxes are now free from the burden of extra costs. Will those savings be passed down to the consumers? I think not. Business owners are there to maximize their profit. If the consumer are willing still pay the same price as they did before the HST, the owners will not lower their prices. Which means business owners will get extra profit (as it reduced their cost). So how will the HST help reduce the burden of consumers? The answer is none. In the end, consumers get the short end of the stick and business owners get the red carpet treatment.

[TheKingdom2000]

I totally understand the principles of HST which makes it a better than the GST/PST system we had before (in theory). But think about this. The current business owners who requires to pay the intermediate taxes are now free from the burden of extra costs. Will those savings be passed down to the consumers? I think not. Business owners are there to maximize their profit. If the consumer are willing still pay the same price as they did before the HST, the owners will not lower their prices. Which means business owners will get extra profit (as it reduced their cost). So how will the HST help reduce the burden of consumers? The answer is none. In the end, consumers get the short end of the stick and business owners get the red carpet treatment.

I had the same thought mentality as you before. The reality is, the smaller chain places will likely do this. But, the BIG chain stores will not. They are far more educated and have a better marketing team.

My friend works for Superstore and has told me that their costs are actually passed on to the customers. NOT because they want the customer to save, but because they want to take business away from their competitors.

Because of the extra money in Superstores pocket, they can afford to have more and better sales. Which will attract people to their store over Walmart lets say. She said they still pocket some of the extra cash back they get. But, there is a portion of that, that goes to reducing costs for us the consumer, in the form or reduced product costs and sales.

So for the big chain stores this is their thought mentality. So hopefully you'll notice more sales and better prices when you shop at the big box stores.

[q0192837465]

The difficult thing for most people is that it is hard to look beyond the personal level. Yes in theory HST is beneficial to all of us as a society in the long run. But in the short run it's not the the common people who will reap noticeable benefits, but large corps.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[Gt-R R34]

The flaw isn't the system, its the people. People are more than capable of affecting change in our system, they chose not to so the minority gets heard.

no doubt thats true but our system also caters to the minority.

Anyways off topic -

HST - Vote and Be Heard.

[wstce92]

I totally understand the principles of HST which makes it a better than the GST/PST system we had before (in theory). But think about this. The current business owners who requires to pay the intermediate taxes are now free from the burden of extra costs. Will those savings be passed down to the consumers? I think not. Business owners are there to maximize their profit. If the consumer are willing still pay the same price as they did before the HST, the owners will not lower their prices. Which means business owners will get extra profit (as it reduced their cost). So how will the HST help reduce the burden of consumers? The answer is none. In the end, consumers get the short end of the stick and business owners get the red carpet treatment.

The trouble is that so many people fixate on "passing savings to the consumer" as some kind of literal, "you'll save a tonne of money".

As mx703 said, reductions DO occur, and he explained why pretty well. But one thing hindering reductions is the fact that while HST has saved businesses money, depending on sector: rising gas prices, rising food crop prices, impending minimum wage increase, etc has really put a damper on reductions for goods and services.

But back to what I wanted to say, the "savings to the consumer" isn't so much a finite, measurable, cash quantity, as it is the well being of the consumers. Now that businesses are saving money, like you said, they like to maximize profits, milk it for all it's worth. If the climate is good, they'll want to make the most of it, and that means expanding their buisness (more stores, larger stores, etc), increasing investments, hiring more employees (to handle more business), raising wages (to keep employees through the increase in business): All of that keeps people employeed, gets more people employeed, betters our economy.
Business owners aren't just going to sit on their extra earnings, they'll use it to make more. And that is where consumers like you and I benefit, jobs and higher paying jobs.
Just because you don't immediately benefit in your wallet does not mean this is bad policy, think about the future.
When businesses are taxed to hell and riddled with restrictions, THAT's when consumers will get the short end of the stick.

Give a man a fish, he eats for a day.
Teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime.

[Soundy]

I had the same thought mentality as you before. The reality is, the smaller chain places will likely do this. But, the BIG chain stores will not. They are far more educated and have a better marketing team.

My friend works for Superstore and has told me that their costs are actually passed on to the customers. NOT because they want the customer to save, but because they want to take business away from their competitors.
This is what people tend to overlook - competition. Assume every business is saving a couple bucks (whether via HST, or whatever) - if one doesn't pass the savings on to the customer, and his competitor does, then the competitor is going to get more business.

The difficult thing for most people is that it is hard to look beyond the personal level. Yes in theory HST is beneficial to all of us as a society in the long run. But in the short run it's not the the common people who will reap noticeable benefits, but large corps.

It's NOT just big corps, though - I work for a small company (just me, another tech, the boss, and the boss's wife who does the books) and they LOVE the HST. Not only does it save them money, but it makes her life doing the accounting a TON easier. It's not just that it's HALF the paperwork; the PST paperwork itself was hideous, and now that's gone.

The other thing people overlook in their short-sighted, self-centered haste is that if it's good for business, it allows business to hire more people, or to pay their people higher wages. Someone complaining about the HST because he's unemployed needs to look a little more big-picture and realize this improves his chances of GETTING a job (assuming he's actually looking).

[taylor192]

no doubt thats true but our system also caters to the minority.

Anyways off topic -

HST - Vote and Be Heard.
Our system doesn't cater to the minority. The majority don't give a crap, look at voter turnout numbers, so when the minority chose to "vote and be heard" they get heard.

[TheNewGirl]

One more question on the HST vote.

I read this,


So say there are 1 million registered voters in BC (just throwing out a number)
So for the vote to pass 500,001 people must vote to get rid of the HST?

So if only 700,000 registered voters come out and vote and 400,000 of them vote to get rid of the HST, that still won't be enough to get rid of it?

Yes. 50% of the resgistered voters have to come out against it, not 50% of the people who vote. As I understand it.

[Gt-R R34]

Our system doesn't cater to the minority. The majority don't give a crap, look at voter turnout numbers, so when the minority chose to "vote and be heard" they get heard.

Disagree -

But Like i said again it's off-topic. If you want to discuss PM me. I don't mind a debate.

This is bout the HST.

[Glove]

why do you always post debateable topics about current events? Is work really that boring? You need to lurk the fucked up shit thread more

[taylor192]

why do you always post debateable topics about current events? Is work really that boring? You need to lurk the fucked up shit thread more

Some of us enjoy topics that elicit a better response than:
Mad tight whip yo
Moar bewbs
Go Canucks
...

If you enjoy that, as you point out there are lost of threads for it. :hi:

[UFO]

It's NOT just big corps, though - I work for a small company (just me, another tech, the boss, and the boss's wife who does the books) and they LOVE the HST. Not only does it save them money, but it makes her life doing the accounting a TON easier. It's not just that it's HALF the paperwork; the PST paperwork itself was hideous, and now that's gone.

So has your company decreased pricing to clients as a result of the cost savings from HST? If it makes the accountant/book-keepers job way easier, one could argue that their wages should also be decreased or at least the business' cost allocated to this task should be decreased... it doesn't make sense to pay somebody the same or more, to do half the work does it?

Like the above poster, and I'm sure many others, I am skeptical that the cost savings realized by businesses will be passed on to consumers in a reasonable amount of time, and in a way that will offset the increased cost to the consumer in a way that is easy to see.

ie. restaurants: I shouldn't be expected to tip 15-20% any more now because I am paying an extra 7% on my food bill due to HST, which is in turn helping the restaurant save money and time at the operational level, which allows the restaurant to pay the servers and waiters more than minimum wage as a result so now my tip can be 5-10% instead. Does it work like this? Obviously no, but why shouldn't it?


The other thing people overlook in their short-sighted, self-centered haste is that if it's good for business, it allows business to hire more people, or to pay their people higher wages. Someone complaining about the HST because he's unemployed needs to look a little more big-picture and realize this improves his chances of GETTING a job (assuming he's actually looking).

The problem I see with this view is that it's TOO big-pictured, the polar opposite of the short-sighted self-centered haste. If businesses save money, you are assuming that they are going to WANT to hire more peope, or WANT to pay their existing staff higher wages. What if they don't? Then all of a sudden many of the benefits of HST to this greater good of the economy no longer exists.

Personally, I am less than impressed with how I have to pay more to eat out mainly... it is a luxury and we are now eating out less as a result of it. We can afford to if we wanted to, but we choose not to more often now. Aside from that, and what I posted below, HST has not really impacted my lifestyle in a significant manner.

"Another advantage of going to HST is that tax will no longer be payable on most used goods purchased privately. However, used vehicles, aircraft and boats purchased privately (not from an HST registrant) would still be subject to provincial sales tax, which is being increased from 7% to 12%. If an HST registrant purchases a used vehicle privately, the 12% PST paid on the transfer of the vehicle is not recoverable as an input tax credit."

HST also screwed me when buying a private pre-owned car. The tagline back then was that HST would not apply to anything that GST was not applied to, so used cars should be completely tax free now... except used car dealerships would now be at a significant disadvantage and the province would lose a significant chunk of "free money", so instead of paying only 7% PST on private sale used cars we have to pay 12% PST now, extra $1000 out of my pocket. Having to pay sales tax on privately bought items that have already been taxed by the original consumer is a big enough crock on its own, this INCREASE in PST only rubs salt into the wounds and reeks of a cash grab. I don't care if its called PST/HST/whatever, all I know is I had to pay an extra 5% for no good reason other than a pure cash grab.

I would not mind HST at all if all of the previous equivalent GST and PST exemptions applied the same way; all of the cost savings to business and government would still be seen equally but I'm sure then that the government will not get their share of the $ (see example above) and this is the major reason why I am opposed to it.

[TheNewGirl]

^

My business hasn't actually lowered our prices. BUT we haven't had to increase our prices in the face of rising product and labour costs. Without the HST we would be doing that.

[RacingMetro92]

Looks like they're changing up the HST a bit.

Families will get "transition cheques" of $175 with children under 18.

HST goes down from 12% to 10% by 2014

Corporate Taxes go up to 12% from 10%

SOURCE: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/thewest/Liberals+lower+rate+offer+rebates+hike+corporate+t axes/4838204/story.html

So does this change anything? I'm still pretty on the fence about the vote, but I can still see why the HST is both good and bad. I wonder if this will sway some voters.

[TheNewGirl]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2011/05/25/bc-hst-changes.html

This is exactly what I wanted them to do and effectively remedies my concerns with the tax.

I got to participate in one of the phone in round tables with the minister of finance and I'm really glad to see that the feed back from those meetings clearly was heard by the government.

[gars]

The problem I see with this view is that it's TOO big-pictured, the polar opposite of the short-sighted self-centered haste. If businesses save money, you are assuming that they are going to WANT to hire more peope, or WANT to pay their existing staff higher wages. What if they don't? Then all of a sudden many of the benefits of HST to this greater good of the economy no longer exists.


The problem with your argument, is that all you can see is Businesses making money of the customers. You forget that Businesses need to compete to survive.

Do you know how Walmart has expanded so much across the states? It's because they are able to offer low prices which takes out competition. If they can lower prices, they will because the guy next door won't be able to offer the same price. If through HST - they are able to lower prices even further, they will. I'm not going to get into an argument about big box corporations, or how Walmart underpays their employees - but they're the biggest example of how lower prices benefits the companies.

[Mr.HappySilp]

What I don't like about the whole tax thing is for example I just order a laptop off dell.ca it was on sale for $1300 with tax it is around $1500. If I just go to the states and buy it I could save myself $200 lol.

[Walperstyle]

I will get failed and hated for this post. But many of you should come to Alberta like I did.

$70,000+/year wages
No provincial Tax
No Air-Care emissions BS (tune all you want)
No ICBC (I pay about 1/3 the cost for insurance out here)

I understand many of you care about the environment, but what drives a province is Industry. On a global scale, its all about 'getting the other guys money'. Vancouver has way too many consumer jobs, and not enough industry.

Cheers!

[endless402]

What I don't like about the whole tax thing is for example I just order a laptop off dell.ca it was on sale for $1300 with tax it is around $1500. If I just go to the states and buy it I could save myself $200 lol.

sure u can use it in the states but you'll get taxed on the way back unless you mean illegally importing it back


there are lots of illegal things you can do to avoid tax...

[Mr.HappySilp]

I will get failed and hated for this post. But many of you should come to Alberta like I did.

$70,000+/year wages
No provincial Tax
No Air-Care emissions BS (tune all you want)
No ICBC (I pay about 1/3 the cost for insurance out here)

I understand many of you care about the environment, but what drives a province is Industry. On a global scale, its all about 'getting the other guys money'. Vancouver has way too many consumer jobs, and not enough industry.

Cheers!

I would come if only it is not so cold.

[TheNewGirl]

I will get failed and hated for this post. But many of you should come to Alberta like I did.

$70,000+/year wages
No provincial Tax
No Air-Care emissions BS (tune all you want)
No ICBC (I pay about 1/3 the cost for insurance out here)

I understand many of you care about the environment, but what drives a province is Industry. On a global scale, its all about 'getting the other guys money'. Vancouver has way too many consumer jobs, and not enough industry.

Cheers!


I think the glory days of Alberta are slowly coming to an end though. I anticipate you'll have a sales tax inside of the next handful of years.

[2damaxmr2]

Right... Go troll somewhere else.

[UFO]

The problem with your argument, is that all you can see is Businesses making money of the customers. You forget that Businesses need to compete to survive.

I forgot nothing. The whole point of business IS to make money off consumers, otherwise they would be called charities. Your basis of competition is based on money and dollars only, but level of service, quality of product, these are all things that need to be factored into the competition equation.

Do you know how Walmart has expanded so much across the states? It's because they are able to offer low prices which takes out competition. If they can lower prices, they will because the guy next door won't be able to offer the same price. If through HST - they are able to lower prices even further, they will. I'm not going to get into an argument about big box corporations, or how Walmart underpays their employees - but they're the biggest example of how lower prices benefits the companies.

Your example is as one sided as mine. You are saying Walmart lowers their prices to knock competition out because they know that the competition cannot match their pricing (unlevel playing field).

With HST, if Walmart can reduce the price of a product 2%, so can Superstore/Safeway/Whole Foods/Capers/Canadian Tire, so MAYBE there are savings to be seen by the consumer. But does this guarantee that they will? No way. Why would Walmart lower their pricing when they know everyone else can do they same thing, what incentive is there to decrease their profit margin when everybody else can offer the same price decrease?

[gars]

With HST, if Walmart can reduce the price of a product 2%, so can Superstore/Safeway/Whole Foods/Capers/Canadian Tire, so MAYBE there are savings to be seen by the consumer. But does this guarantee that they will? No way. Why would Walmart lower their pricing when they know everyone else can do they same thing, what incentive is there to decrease their profit margin when everybody else can offer the same price decrease?

If they don't decrease their profit margin, and their competitors do, they will lose business. If they decrease their profit margins, and their competitors don't, they will take business away from their competitors.

[Walperstyle]

I think the glory days of Alberta are slowly coming to an end though. I anticipate you'll have a sales tax inside of the next handful of years.

By that time I'll have have my house paid off, and probably still have some renters. :fullofwin:

sorry for trolling, I just wish someone told me 11 years ago after highschool to move here. I'm 6 years behind on life because I stayed in BC and Delt with its BS backward thinking.

[TheKingdom2000]

By that time I'll have have my house paid off, and probably still have some renters. :fullofwin:

sorry for trolling, I just wish someone told me 11 years ago after highschool to move here. I'm 6 years behind on life because I stayed in BC and Delt with its BS backward thinking.

Bro. You can't just compare Alberta and BC like you do.

For one, Alberta is NOT BC. Some people like BC and want to stay in BC.
If I moved to Abbotsford i'm sure I could buy a really nice house for $500k and probably get a good chunk of land.
What's the problem with that? I don't want to live in Abby. I want to live in the GVR.

I'm currently in Toronto for school and I would probably be better off in Toronto as cost of living is lower and there are far more jobs. But, would I want to stay here after graduation?
No. But, if people do that's good for them. Toronto is just not the city for me.

Yes, some people might be like you, but you can't generalize your idea's to the rest of the population. It doesn't work that way my friend.

[4444]

By that time I'll have have my house paid off, and probably still have some renters. :fullofwin:

sorry for trolling, I just wish someone told me 11 years ago after highschool to move here. I'm 6 years behind on life because I stayed in BC and Delt with its BS backward thinking.

don't blame BC for this, blame yourself.

i'm in BC and make a lot more money than you and am the same age as you, i could make more elsewhere... i deal with it

on topic, i knew this would happen... cutting HST is just a ploy to get ppl to not turn out to vote against it, HST will not go away, HST is not bad, the implimentation was terrible & it cost Gordo his job (to some degree)

Christy Clark is an idiot - raising corporate taxes and cutting taxes on purchases is stupid for the economy on the whole.... you may think you won't personally see the 2% corporate tax rate, but you will if it means a big company goes elsewhere based on this, or if it means your company moves out of province partially to do with this.

i wish we had a strong conservative leader in BC, non of this liberal BS vs. NDP BS

[Gt-R R34]

i wish we had a strong conservative leader in BC, non of this liberal BS vs. NDP BS

No..

We just need a Competent one.

[UFO]

If they don't decrease their profit margin, and their competitors do, they will lose business. If they decrease their profit margins, and their competitors don't, they will take business away from their competitors.

If it's as simple as that, I'm going to open up a gas station and sell gas $0.05 less than everywhere else and profit :D

If they don't decrease their profit margin, and their competitors don't decrease their profit margin, then all businesses will reap extra profit because they know what price the market can sustain for a certain product. The decrease in product pricing that we MAY see as a result of HST is so small, that it is easily offset by things like increasin labour costs, inflation, energy and fuel costs, and to the consumer any savings will be more or less invisible and only theoretical, just like your example of how businesses like to sell things at lower profit margins to gain a competitive edge.

[Meowjin]

So why do people avoid the can am in point roberts like fire?

[wstce92]

The problem I see with this view is that it's TOO big-pictured, the polar opposite of the short-sighted self-centered haste. If businesses save money, you are assuming that they are going to WANT to hire more peope, or WANT to pay their existing staff higher wages. What if they don't? Then all of a sudden many of the benefits of HST to this greater good of the economy no longer exists.



As someone who has worked with, supervised, hired, and fired many employees; I can tell you, good employees are EXTREMELY hard to find. Maybe it's the culture and this generation, but majority of people lack responsibility, discipline, or even a half decent work ethic. When businesses start to do more business, when the workload increases, I've had plenty of experience with people just quiting because they don't want to do the work or because they just couldn't handle a job that ceased to be "slack".

If you have employees that work well, you WILL want to keep them. Simple as that. Most of the time, that means giving them a raise.
To meant the increased demand of your business, you also have no choice but to hire more people (given that expected revenue covers the costs of new employees and then some).

It's not that big pictured.
If you feed your family one steak each every night, but then all the sudden you get an entire cow for dinner... you're either going to have to give each member of your family more than the standard one steak, OR you're going to have to invite more people over, OR both. You aren't just going to sit and watch the cow rot.


In terms of your eating out concerns. My parents, uncle, and one of my cousins, all own restaurants, and I'm very familiar with their books. they can't do anything about what they charge, because increased crop prices, along with increased fuel prices, have made their costs go up; and strict liquor regulation, along with the street parking meter increases (both cost of and time in effect) have made people refrain from spending too much time and money at dinner. With costs up, average spending down, average number of tables a night down; even with the savings from HST, times are tough. (This is from talking to our regulars, who say that they used to be able to sit and drink as much as they wanted over dinner, or that they used to be able to put in an hour for parking at 7 and not have to worry about it; but now it's all changed)

[darkfroggy]

Discrimination also keeps many skilled people off the workplace.

Look at administration offices. All of them are staffed by white people. Board positions at big companies? All filled by middle-aged white men.

To get good employees, you have to get rid of the nepotism, racism, and sexism in the workplace.

I have seen a TON of incompetent people in workplaces. CS reps that don't have a single clue, waiters who don't know how to serve, computer sales rep that don't even know the specs of products, etc. When managers/supervisors invite their friends/acquaintances over it becomes a total shitmess.

[TheNewGirl]

i wish we had a strong conservative leader in BC, non of this liberal BS vs. NDP BS

No you don't. If we had only a true conservative leader vs the NDP the NDP would win 9 times out of 10. Because while we all hate them, we're not a conservative province on the provincial level and most of us take HUGE issue social conservatisim.

Our provincial "liberal" party is more blue then red (that's why it's their party colors), and they're far more conservative than a "liberal" party aught to be to the extent that the federal liberals won't stand on a stage with them. BUT if they went more Tory we'd out them. Look what happened to Campbell.