[k3mps]

Found this on msn today.
i know it's in the states, but you never know, one day maybe our prisons will have too many inmates.
what are you views on this?

The U.S. Supreme Court on Monday endorsed a court order requiring California to cut its prison population by tens of thousands of inmates to improve health care for those who remain behind bars.

The court said in a 5-4 decision that the reduction is "required by the Constitution" to correct longstanding violations of inmates' rights. The order mandates a prison population of no more than 110,000 inmates, still far above the system's designed capacity.

There are more than 142,000 inmates in the state's 33 adult prisons, meaning roughly 32,000 inmates will need to be transferred to other jurisdictions or released.

Justice Anthony Kennedy, a California native, wrote the majority opinion, in which he included photos of severe overcrowding. The court's four Democratic appointees joined with Kennedy.

"The violations have persisted for years. They remain uncorrected," Kennedy said.

Justice Antonin Scalia said in dissent that the court order is "perhaps the most radical injunction issued by a court in our nation's history."

Scalia, reading his dissent aloud Monday, said it would require the release of "the staggering number of 46,000 convicted felons."

Scalia's number, cited in legal filings, comes from a period in which the prison population was even higher.

Justice Clarence Thomas joined Scalia's opinion, while Justice Samuel Alito wrote a separate dissent for himself and Chief Justice John Roberts.

Prisons designed to hold 80,000

The case revolves around inadequate mental and physical health care in a state prison system that in 2009 averaged nearly a death a week that might have been prevented or delayed with better medical care.

The facilities were designed to hold about 80,000 inmates.

The state has protested a court order to cut the population to about 110,000 inmates within two years, but also has taken steps to meet, if not exceed, that target.

Earlier this year, Gov. Jerry Brown signed a bill that would reduce the prison population by about 40,000 inmates by transferring many low-level offenders to county jurisdiction. The state legislature has yet to authorize any money for the transfer.

Kennedy said the state could ask for the court order to be modified to allow for up to three additional years to reach the 110,000-inmate target.
-cbc.ca

[Teh Doucher]

makes sense. the states is fucking retarded, they throw people in jail for having a little bit of weed on them...

[k3mps]

california has that "3 strikes law" right?
is that what's causing this?

[Meowjin]

^you just asked a long and complicated question.

[Vale46Rossi]

Canada is turning in to America.

We are introducing the mandatory minimum which will populate our prison a lot more.

Also we are now discussing about a billion dollar new expansion to house the inmates.

[k3mps]

^you just asked a long and complicated question.

ya i realized it after i reread it

[gars]

Canada is turning in to America.

We are introducing the mandatory minimum which will populate our prison a lot more.

Also we are now discussing about a billion dollar new expansion to house the inmates.

It's really hard to find a balance.

On one hand, we see all the time - in the news, murderers, pedophiles, etc, being released on parole way too soon - and everybody bitches about the system and how they shouldn't be allowed to roam the street so soon.

On the other hand, we look at the states, and see just how bad the other extreme could be.

[StylinRed]

Harper wants to turn us into the usa even though the usa is a clear example of how fucked up their "way" is

hell Harper is even siding with Israel now

[CRS]

Harper wants to turn us into the usa even though the usa is a clear example of how fucked up their "way" is

hell Harper is even siding with Israel now

Not sure if that israeli the problem we have here.

[Ronin]

Should open this place back up. It's only got like 350 cells but every little bit helps!

http://www.thingstoseeinsanfrancisco.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/alcatraz-island.jpg

Just make sure none of this shit is still lying around...especially if you're concerned about health care.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_iLSmTPwJGZY/SfHzA4S7w-I/AAAAAAAALfA/CXGBlKpQsTs/s400/13.jpg

[geeknerd]

throw in a couple shanks, give them a "do whatever you want without consequences" day.
itll probably kill of tons of child molestors, sincei hear theyre the worst.

[TheNewGirl]

Wow, there's more people in prison in California, then in all of Canada.

[TheKingdom2000]

Just legalize marijuana. That would solve a lot of the problems.

Mother fuckkkkka just doooo it!
And maybe then the HST will be lowered, social services will increase, and income tax will be lowered.

It's so damn simple. Just legalize it! Then all those weed dealers will be obsolete, the people who go to jail with more than an ounce will be obsolete, etc.

Or just legalize the production and manufacturing of hemp. That will generate a lot of new business and other random goodness.
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[TheNewGirl]

I don't think legalizing pot will solve all problems every where.

But I think it would be a great start. Especially in the states where you can get major time for very small possession.

[Death2Theft]

Again why are tax dollars paying to house inmates? Why the hell arn't they doing manual labour turning a profit?
Take your average road repair crew, throw in cell mates pay them 1/4 of what the normal crews make use the rest of the money on guards and quality inspectors. Bet the roads would be alot smoother.

[flagella]

Outsource the prison to China and they will probably learn some lesson. These inmates here are living the life many on earth wish to have.

[gars]

Wow, there's more people in prison in California, then in all of Canada.

There are also more people in California, than all of Canada - but I'm sure the ratio of # of Inmates per capita is much higher in California.

[ilvtofu]

It's really hard to find a balance.

On one hand, we see all the time - in the news, murderers, pedophiles, etc, being released on parole way too soon - and everybody bitches about the system and how they shouldn't be allowed to roam the street so soon.

On the other hand, we look at the states, and see just how bad the other extreme could be.

The media makes money off of the bad press they give to the justice system, no one wants to hear about the system just doing their job properly, those and police brutality are the biggest stories, just as the biggest celeb stories are always scandals. The media will always highlight more scandals than success stories because they sell, so what you think about our justice system is most likely skewed if you're knowledge is based off news.

[mr_chin]

Again why are tax dollars paying to house inmates? Why the hell arn't they doing manual labour turning a profit?
Take your average road repair crew, throw in cell mates pay them 1/4 of what the normal crews make use the rest of the money on guards and quality inspectors. Bet the roads would be alot smoother.

How and where would they do this? In a factory? Out on the streets paving roads? There is a reason why they are in prison and there is a reason why there is maximum security.

If there is one little chance they can escape, they would. You can't just lock them in a warehouse and let them work, and then escort them out to their bedroom whenever their job is done.

They should of made the Texas into a prison. Build a concrete wall around it with electrical barbed wires and one exit/entrance that have a motion sensor machine gun that can only be turned off by authorities. Throw inmates who convicted serious crimes like murder, raping, serial killers, arm robbers, etc. and let them deal with each other in there. Every day, a helicopter drops a shipment of food for them. Clothes and shelter? Well survival of the fittest.

[k3mps]

Again why are tax dollars paying to house inmates? Why the hell arn't they doing manual labour turning a profit?
Take your average road repair crew, throw in cell mates pay them 1/4 of what the normal crews make use the rest of the money on guards and quality inspectors. Bet the roads would be alot smoother.

if it was minimum security, maybe.
in a MAX / SUPERMAX security, they house the worst of the worst.
escaping one of those isn't impossible, there have been some in the past.
if an inmate can escape a MAX security prison, imagine what would happen if hundreds of MAX security inmates were allowed to work on public roads, let alone factories with almost zero securitry features

[TheNewGirl]

Again why are tax dollars paying to house inmates? Why the hell arn't they doing manual labour turning a profit?
Take your average road repair crew, throw in cell mates pay them 1/4 of what the normal crews make use the rest of the money on guards and quality inspectors. Bet the roads would be alot smoother.

Here in BC we had a prison farming program where prisoners worked in farms to train prisoners in trade, and also to provide food for the prison and the remainder was sold to the community. It was a great program, because not only did it make people productive but it gave them training and skills for when they left prison.

The program was canceled.

[StylinRed]

Not sure if that israeli the problem we have here.

just another example of moving towards more of a US Republican attitude rather than a traditionally Canadian one

it's Mulroney part 2 but more maniacal ;)

[apple_cutie]

How and where would they do this? In a factory? Out on the streets paving roads? There is a reason why they are in prison and there is a reason why there is maximum security.

If there is one little chance they can escape, they would. You can't just lock them in a warehouse and let them work, and then escort them out to their bedroom whenever their job is done.

They should of made the Texas into a prison. Build a concrete wall around it with electrical barbed wires and one exit/entrance that have a motion sensor machine gun that can only be turned off by authorities. Throw inmates who convicted serious crimes like murder, raping, serial killers, arm robbers, etc. and let them deal with each other in there. Every day, a helicopter drops a shipment of food for them. Clothes and shelter? Well survival of the fittest.

That sounds like Australia
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[Great68]

Again why are tax dollars paying to house inmates? Why the hell arn't they doing manual labour turning a profit?
Take your average road repair crew, throw in cell mates pay them 1/4 of what the normal crews make use the rest of the money on guards and quality inspectors. Bet the roads would be alot smoother.

So take away jobs from hard working honest people, and give them to criminals?

[Wykydtron]

There are people in the US that serve prison time for not being able to pay fines/tickets for things like lack of helmet while riding a bicycle. So of course these numbers are going to seem a lot higher than they "really" are.

[dangonay]

Canada is turning in to America.

We are introducing the mandatory minimum which will populate our prison a lot more.

Also we are now discussing about a billion dollar new expansion to house the inmates.
Harper wants to turn us into the usa even though the usa is a clear example of how fucked up their "way" is

hell Harper is even siding with Israel now
What a complete crock of shit. The US has about six times (yes, 6 times) the inmate population we do (per capita). I'd like to know exactly what Harper is going to do to increase our prison population by a factor of 6.

Why are you still campaigning? You know the election is over, so there's no need for your constant posting of BS mis-information.


Again why are tax dollars paying to house inmates? Why the hell arn't they doing manual labour turning a profit?
Take your average road repair crew, throw in cell mates pay them 1/4 of what the normal crews make use the rest of the money on guards and quality inspectors. Bet the roads would be alot smoother.

So take away jobs from hard working honest people, and give them to criminals?

The government has tried to do that. Corcan is the division of Corrections Canada that employs inmates and makes products. They have several industries, namely clothing, printing and furniture manufacturing.

The problem is they compete with regular hard-working Canadians. They have come under fire (rightfully so) because they can make products for much less than other companies can since their labour costs are basically nil. They have gotten into trouble with many local firms near prisons for unfair business practices.

This is why Corcan will typically only make things for government internal use (print shops make government forms, for example) or for non-profit organizations. But they try to keep a low profile while doing it.

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

^
yep, most of the "classroom tables" and other furniture in the military is all make by inmates. that shit is fuckin heavy as fuck and made to last lol.

i used to side hardcore with harsh punishments. raised as a kid i was subject to asian style punishment, so i know corporal punishment works, but to a degree, after that, it's just excessive and only makes people hate/fear, make you better at being bad/sneaky. you have to reason with them.

but u know what, after meeting some ex-"convicts" and visiting some prisons, and what i learnt in criminology, and then SEEING it applied in the real world, man, rehabilitation is the "right" way. a lot of these convicts, you wouldn't even be able to tell what they did. even talking to "murderers" in prison, some of them, they really just fucked up real fucking bad. wrong place wrong time. im sure most of you guys have been in a situation where if a gun magically appeared in your hand, someone would be shot.

of course there are exceptions, people that no matter what cannot adapt to our social environment and/or be productive or stay out of trouble/harm other people.

you really gotta see what rehabilitation can do to some of these "bad" people. they become good useful contributing citizens.

really, if you're gonna lock someone up and punish them really hard forever, you might as well shoot them in the back of the head. if they ever come out, they'll only be a train wreck and cause more trouble (either intentionally or unintentionally), or have some sorta fucking hatred toward everyone and their country/govt.

a prisoner costs us 65,000+ dollars per year to keep locked up, that's fucking more than most of you make, and maybe more than some of your parents make.

think about it hard, how would you like it if you went to PRISON for having some weed on you. or cuz you struck out 3 times doing retarded little things?

these things only come with age and experience. i used to be all about executions and super harsh punishments. only when you're older and you look back at your own life and the lives of the people you love, and realise, it could have easily been you in prison. that's not cool man.


anyways the people being released are probably people that would get a tiny slap on the wrist if they were convicted in canada, they're not gonna release serial killers and rapists.

[StylinRed]

What a complete crock of shit. The US has about six times (yes, 6 times) the inmate population we do (per capita). I'd like to know exactly what Harper is going to do to increase our prison population by a factor of 6.

Why are you still campaigning? You know the election is over, so there's no need for your constant posting of BS mis-information.


ur response has nothing to do with my quote... population size per capita??? ... the hell does that have to do with the policy leaning towards a failed example

[dangonay]

ur response has nothing to do with my quote... population size per capita??? ... the hell does that have to do with the policy leaning towards a failed example
Reading comprehension much? I clearly stated that the US locks up about 6 times as many inmates as we do per capita (over 700 per 100,000 people vs about 115 per 100,000 for Canada).

Canada has a LONG WAY to go before even being remotely as bad as the US for locking people up.

[Great68]

^Mandatory minimums is a pretty big step in that direction though.

[Death2Theft]

It's not like the jobs that they'd let inmates have are desirable cushy jobs. The general public has options for jobs,the inmates for the term of thier stay will not.

[drunkrussian]

our prisons ARE already overcrowded. But yeah the reason california doc has perhaps the most inmates out of many of the states is because:

-california has way more population than other states
-3 strikes law puts people in jail for life
-strict felony laws on weed and gang activity + gigantic gang population = tons of inmates
-california doc is notorious for its prison gangs. When you're in a prison gang and you kill someone or commit a crime while in prison, they have the right to extend your sentence. So you got some people going in on a 2 year violation serving life lol

so no i don't think it will ever get nearly as bad here in bc. Especially since the population of canada = the pouplation of california

[TheNewGirl]

^Mandatory minimums is a pretty big step in that direction though.

I think the Mandatory Minimums is a HUGE step away from rehabilitation and towards a vendictive justice system (which is what they have in the states).

Also, the move of the Federal Government to shut down programs like Insite, making harm reduction strategies that actually work basically illegal encourages criminal behavior and is a testament towards their shift towards a "War on Drugs" / "Tough on Crime" approach.

This approach is about vengence though rather then justice and imprisons more people, longer, in a situation that teaches them to be better criminals rather then better citizens.

[dangonay]

^ I don't see a problem with mandatory sentencing and I don't believe it's going to suddenly increase our prison population drastically. Mandatory minimums only apply to certain types of offences, usually related to organized criminal activity. They are also going to apply to sexual offences like child molestation. I don't see how anyone can be opposed to keeping these individuals behind bars for a minimum time.

My favorite quote comes from a well-known criminal lawyer in Toronto who's also strongly opposed to mandatory minimumns.

Mandatory minimum sentencing takes the decision-making power out of the hands of the judges. Everyone is treated alike, and that’s fundamentally unfair.
Wow, treating everyone alike is "unfair". As opposed to having individuals who can afford high-power attorneys getting reduced sentences or no sentence at all, simply because they have more money and resources?

Of course a criminal lawyer would be against this - it greatly reduces their possible income. I mean, why would someone pay you a fortune in counsel if you're going to get a standard sentence anyway?

And they should take some of the power away from judges. Judges don't know enough about the accused to determine if they're a good person who made a mistake or a habitual criminal. Accused rarely speak in court and the lawyer makes a prepared statement about them and their life. Of course they're going to really sell their client.

Parole officers and persons inside correctional facilities are far better to determine a course of action for an inmate since they see them everyday and see what type of person they really are. They can then make recommendations to the parole board based on what they actually witness about a person's behaviour, not what some slick lawyer tells the judge about them.

You can get day parole in as little as 1/6th of your sentence and full parole in 1/3rd. So if you're a "good person" who made a mistake, a mandatory sentence won't mean much to you since you'll likely be out in 1/6th of your time anyway.


And I don't get your idea that everyone who goes to prison ends up becoming some sort of "super criminal". That only applies to people who are habitual, not people who made a mistake (who would spend little of their time in prison anyway).

[TheNewGirl]

I have 0 problem with mandatory minimums with their current limitations (especially to child molestation, as they have some of the lowest rehibilitation rates and frankly I'm for locking them up for life when that's the case).

I do have issues when they start being expanded out of their origionaly intended limits. If you look at the civil forfiture laws, which were initially intended to claim the products of orginized crime but are now being used to impound the vehicles of drunk drivers and speeders (though in that instance I support it), we have started to form a history of applying the same crime strategies we use to combat organized crime, to other criminals.

In law, once precidence is established, it's terribly difficult to unroot and I'm concerned that minimums will begin to be applied particularly towards drug users for charges of possession. If it expands to this extent judges will lose their flexability towards sentencing into rehab programs.

[StylinRed]

Reading comprehension much? I clearly stated that the US locks up about 6 times as many inmates as we do per capita (over 700 per 100,000 people vs about 115 per 100,000 for Canada).

Canada has a LONG WAY to go before even being remotely as bad as the US for locking people up.

again.... you failed to understand

Im speaking of policy reflecting a failed system


you're saying "Well it may be a failed system but we have a long way to go before it becomes a problem"


lol WUT?

[k3mps]

last year, our school has "corrections canada" reps come in, who worked in some of the prisons in the lower mainland. (one security head, one rehab head and one guard)
we asked them about how many inmates each prison can hold.
what they all responded with was that they saw an increase in inmates coming in, not a rapid increase but a noticeable one.
they also said that they have never had a problem with inmate population, but they believe that vacant cells are disappearing.
in addition, they said that their rehab programs are relatively successful despite what many think, and that they rarely see returning inmates.

this is just what i've been told

[Meowjin]

last year, our school has "corrections canada" reps come in, who worked in some of the prisons in the lower mainland. (one security head, one rehab head and one guard)
we asked them about how many inmates each prison can hold.
what they all responded with was that they saw an increase in inmates coming in, not a rapid increase but a noticeable one.
they also said that they have never had a problem with inmate population, but they believe that vacant cells are disappearing.
in addition, they said that their rehab programs are relatively successful despite what many think, and that they rarely see returning inmates.

this is just what i've been told

My psych prof told me that we should't rely on info like that, and that stats will always trump hearsay. Kinda like saying how 10% of the brain is used but it's false.

maybe someone with a psych major can trump up. There should be alot of those on RS.

[k3mps]

My psych prof told me that we should't rely on info like that, and that stats will always trump hearsay. Kinda like saying how 10% of the brain is used but it's false.

maybe someone with a psych major can trump up. There should be alot of those on RS.

ya not many of us believed it cuz we initially heard different stuff from our law teacher.
but who knows what's going on in those facilities.

[Death2Theft]

Mandatory sentencing on things like possesion of guns I agree with, not so much other things.

[k3mps]

Mandatory sentencing on things like possesion of guns I agree with, not so much other things.

that's what sucks about californias 3 strikes law. the third strike could be something so minor, yet send you to jail

[quasi]

that's what sucks about californias 3 strikes law. the third strike could be something so minor, yet send you to jail

Ya, I remember when I was in college in the late 90's and my prof was talking about the guy who's third strike was stealing a slice of pizza from a bunch of kids. He got 25 years for that, not sure if it was succesfully appealed or not.

[achiam]

Having inmates sit around in prison is such an inefficient waste of manpower. If I had my way there'd be forced labor factories where inmates would need to work to eat, producing goods that would be used by everyone. If they refused, they wouldn't be fed and could die if they wanted to. The more serious the crime, the longer the work sentence!

[Manic!]

Having inmates sit around in prison is such an inefficient waste of manpower. If I had my way there'd be forced labor factories where inmates would need to work to eat, producing goods that would be used by everyone. If they refused, they wouldn't be fed and could die if they wanted to. The more serious the crime, the longer the work sentence!

So who's producing those goods that the the prisoners would make now? I bet those people would complain big time. Producing goods that people would buy is not that easy.

[Vale46Rossi]

Most people don't understand locking up criminals won't work. In the end they will come out eventually. A good approach is to rehabilitate them to society so they will be a useful mean to society. Of course I am not saying everyone gets a slap on the wrist or whatnot but we need to weight the benefits of both sides.

[Supafly]

Honestly imo, this would save us a lot of money....should be used for convicted rapists, murderers, molesters, drunk drivers.

http://www.timberwolf-uk.com/images/ShredderWorking.jpg


It would save us a whole of tax money.

[TheNewGirl]

Having inmates sit around in prison is such an inefficient waste of manpower. If I had my way there'd be forced labor factories where inmates would need to work to eat, producing goods that would be used by everyone. If they refused, they wouldn't be fed and could die if they wanted to. The more serious the crime, the longer the work sentence!

I know a lot of people want to think of things in simple terms like this. But ^ kind of thinking doesn't solve the crime problem. This kind of thinking actually makes it worse.

Frankly, as long as our penal system's focus is punishment, and not rehabilitation, the crime problems are not likely to change much. When we start to address Crime as a social and medical issue, and inject some compassion and forgiveness into the system we start to see far better results. Portugal's shifting approach to drug and drug related crime really does demonstrate this well.

Additionally the BIGGEST factors in preventing crime are education and community/family involvement. If we work on improving our education system and ensuring that all children in our country have equal access to it and what ever support they need, then we can take a bite out of crime before it happens. But the other, bigger step is supporting families with children who are starting to display dangerous behavior at a young age, and proving alternative activities for youth that are actually appealing to them (I know a lot of community programs are well meaning but I think too many of them miss the mark).

Majin> I did my degree in Psych but I only took one course psych involving criminal behavior. I do remember that rehabilitation rates are higher in productive programs (so in prisons that do have work programs, such as the prison farms program I mentioned earlier) and prisons that have education and drug rehab programs. Typically this is all most successful in minimum security institutions (both because you have a less violent population and because their time there is so short that they always have it in sight, they know what they do impacts that greatly).

Larger, Max Security prisons actually tend to force criminals to become better criminals to protect themselves. This is one of the reasons I object to the larger prison facilities that Harper wants to build. In smaller facilities, this can be mitigated to a degree but the larger the population, the harder it gets to be to do this.

[Walperstyle]

^sending inmates to work is rehabilitation. I know of a few prisons right now where you can get an education. (cant speak for all of them)

Work isn't punishment. Idle hands are bad for people that tend to do crime. If I wasn't in the garage working on my cars, I'd probably be out stealing solar panels or other industrial equipment, lol.

edit: I work with two ex convicts. One did 10 years. I'm not a specialist, but he isn't blaming Harper. He's actually thankful Harper's administration for keeping his job outside of prison.

[TheNewGirl]

It depends HUGELY on the approach to work.

If it's 'do menial, mindless labour or you starve' that's a punishment.

If it's ' You have the option to do something constructive with your time that will teach you skills that will get you a job when you're out of here ' that's rehabilitation.

The work must be something the prisoner can take pride in for it to have the effect that is desired. This is why I mourn the loss of the prison farm program as farming is something that can be extremely rewarding in this effect. When you work hard making something grow you can measure the impact of your efforts every day.

And yes, here in BC at least we used to have a very good penal education system. When I was younger I worked as a nanny for a woman who taught grade 12 English/Math to prisoners and while the job was stressful she really loved it. I'm not sure if this is still the case or what the state of the education system is there now but I hope it's still intact, it's a big and wonderful tool to preventing relapses.

[Walperstyle]

I think we both agree that education is a good thing, but you really have a sour attitude toward hard work and what it can lead to.

I work in the Oil Industry, 12 hour days, 2 weeks straight, and make $450/day.

Prisoners doing labor jobs is 'training' for a great career path outside of prison, being Canada is starving for Tradespeople right now.

I'm guessing you are one of the many vancouverites that work in the service/consumer industry?

[TheNewGirl]

Well I do accounting now but work consumer/industry/trade.

And I agree, oh boy how I agree we need tradespeople, though in my experience it's always been the higher educated tradespeople that are the most in demand.(My last company had to hire outside of the country and bring people to Canada to specialized technicians.)

I have no objection to them doing labor jobs. Like I said, I think it's the approach to it that's the most important part. What ever they do it's got to be something that feels like a learning experience and an accomplishment - be it making furniture or growing crops or making cabinets or making clothes. It's just got to be something that inspires a feeling of pride and contribution.

[Walperstyle]

On the other end though, here in Alberta, we had Children cleaning the highways on the weekend as volunteers.

I'm a firm believer that Inmates should do that though, at least once or twice.

Prison shouldn't be all glory and education. Then really, what would be the point of us to take out student loans and go into debt when the prison offers it for free. Catch my drift.:)

[Death2Theft]

If single moms would stop saying " i dont need a man" and squirting out the next generation of criminals we'd have more room for quality education.

Additionally the BIGGEST factors in preventing crime are education and community/family involvement. If we work on improving our education system and ensuring that all children in our country have equal access to it and what ever support they need, then we can take a bite out of crime before it happens. But the other, bigger step is supporting families with children who are starting to display dangerous behavior at a young age, and proving alternative activities for youth that are actually appealing to them (I know a lot of community programs are well meaning but I think too many of them miss the mark).

Majin> I did my degree in Psych but I only took one course psych involving criminal behavior. I do remember that rehabilitation rates are higher in productive programs (so in prisons that do have work programs, such as the prison farms program I mentioned earlier) and prisons that have education and drug rehab programs. Typically this is all most successful in minimum security institutions (both because you have a less violent population and because their time there is so short that they always have it in sight, they know what they do impacts that greatly).

Larger, Max Security prisons actually tend to force criminals to become better criminals to protect themselves. This is one of the reasons I object to the larger prison facilities that Harper wants to build. In smaller facilities, this can be mitigated to a degree but the larger the population, the harder it gets to be to do this.

[flagella]

Honestly imo, this would save us a lot of money....should be used for convicted rapists, murderers, molesters, drunk drivers.

http://www.timberwolf-uk.com/images/ShredderWorking.jpg


It would save us a whole of tax money.

You wanna volunteer cleaning up the mess? :fullofwin:

Much easier with a bullet, like in China.

[TheNewGirl]

If single moms would stop saying " i dont need a man" and squirting out the next generation of criminals we'd have more room for quality education.

Are you crazy? Our population growth is negative in this country, do you know that?

We actually don't have enough babies. Without people coming into the country we would be in decline.

It has nothing to do with "not having enough room".

[quasi]

You wanna volunteer cleaning up the mess? :fullofwin:

Much easier with a bullet, like in China.

Bullets cost money, make the inmates clean the mess.

[TheNewGirl]

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/997331--hudak-says-he-would-put-inmates-to-work-cleaning-up-the-province

Interesting article given we've just been talking about this:


Hudak proposes modern-day chain gangs
Published On Fri May 27 2011

Inmates from a sheriff's community service program clean Bourbon Street in the French Quarter of New Orleans the day after Mardi Gras, March a, 2006.

Inmates from a sheriff's community service program clean Bourbon Street in the French Quarter of New Orleans the day after Mardi Gras, March a, 2006.
ROBYN BECK/AFP/GETTY IMAGES
Richard J. Brennan and Rob Ferguson Staff Reporters

Tim Hudak says convicted provincial prisoners should be working on modern-day chain gangs cleaning up Ontario highways, not watching TV and taking yoga classes.

The Progressive Conservative leader said Thursday that if a Tory government is elected Oct. 6, about 2,700 inmates serving sentences in provincial jails will be forced to work up to 40 hours a week, replacing the voluntary program that exists now.

“It makes a lot of sense to ask prisoners who have taken from society to give something back: to clean up that graffiti, to start picking up the trash, raking leaves, cutting grass,” Hudak told reporters, pegging the cost at $20 million a year.

Critics say such bumper sticker politics sound great but in reality it would be an unwieldy and costly program that would need a large number of extra guards.

“I thought Tim Hudak was running for the premier of Ontario, not the governor of Alabama,” said Warren (Smokey) Thomas, president of the Ontario Public Service Employees Union.

Hudak’s tough-on-crime announcement was timed to gain the party maximum attention as the Tories head into a weekend convention at the Toronto Congress Centre, where more election policies will be unveiled.

The Liberal government later warned that Hudak’s plan is a reckless “catch-and-release approach” that will put Ontario families in danger by having convicted drug dealers, burglars, sex offenders and people convicted of violent assaults on the streets.

“It means a lot of characters you wouldn’t want to see in my neighbourhood or your neighbourhood,” said Community Safety and Corrections Minister Jim Bradley.

“What we have here is a failure to think an issue through,” said Bradley, paraphrasing an iconic line from the classic chain-gang movie Cool Hand Luke.

“The public expects governments to keep convicted criminals who could be a danger to our society behind the high walls, behind steel bars.”

Hudak emphasized he doesn’t care if the policy tramples on provincial or municipal union contracts, saying more help is needed cleaning up dirty roadsides and unkempt parks.

“He would be better served to focus on strategies to create good jobs rather than destroying good jobs,” said Mark Ferguson, president of Toronto Civic Employees Union Local 416, which represents the city’s outside workers.

“The crews in Toronto do an excellent job. Toronto is one of the cleanest cities on the continent.”

New Democrat Leader Andrea Horwath said she’d rather put unemployed Ontarians back to work in such jobs than have prisoners do them.

“That would be my priority,” she told reporters at a Canadian Union of Public Employees convention.

The Hudak policy hearkens back to 1995, when then Tory leader Mike Harris was swept to power promising a tough-on-crime agenda and tax cuts. In 2002 the Tory government introduced legislation on inmate work gangs but didn’t follow through.

Hudak boasted his would be the first mandatory program in Canada, replacing a voluntary system that now has a small and specially chosen number of inmates rewarded with jobs in jail kitchens, laundries and shops making licence plates.

The Maplehurst jail in Milton, for example, has a “work gang” of four inmates cutting grass in a nearby cemetery and shovelling snow at a seniors’ home.

To be part of the work gang, “you have to be the cream of the crop,” said Dan Sidsworth, head of the corrections division of OPSEU, which represents jail guards.

This spring, the Tories released documents obtained through access to information laws that yoga and creative writing classes were being offered in some provincial jails by volunteer organizations such as the Elizabeth Fry Society. The government said the free services help rehabilitate inmates.

Conservative concerns in April about prisoners being able to watch premium cable channels on TV prompted the government to scrap the services — which, ironically, had been put in place by the previous Tory government after programs to keep inmates busy were axed in spending cuts.

People familiar with the provincial prison system, in which the longest sentence is two years less a day, said Hudak’s work gang policy isn’t as simple to implement as it sounds.

Jails are designed so a relatively low number of guards can keep their eyes on large numbers of prisoners. As well, the two-thirds of prisoners in Ontario jails who are waiting for trials and sentencing would not be eligible for the work gangs.

That means jails would have to have enough guards to stay with them and others to take inmates outside the walls to various locations, along with the need to screen inmates for potential security problems such as rival gang members serving on the same work detail.

“The logistical challenges are tremendous,” said Paula Osmok, executive director of the John Howard Society. “It would make more sense to fund more programs for inmates to work within the prisons.”

[dangonay]

^ While I don't agree with this "chain-gang" approach, or forced labour, I also don't agree with the BS spin the writer is trying to put on it either. First this is a provincial program, and only affects inmates serving less than two years.

The writer goes on to say that this program will put Ontario families in danger by having convicted drug dealers, burglars, sex offenders and people convicted of violent assaults on the streets.

Clearly he doesn't know much about the provincial system. People who commit serious offences like he has listed do not go to provincial jails since they rarely get sentences of less than 2 years to qualify going to a provincial facility. The whole purpose of having provincial jails is so you can send first time offenders or offenders convicted of less serious crimes to serve time in a lower security institution. Provincial jails are not filled with hardened criminals. So trying to say letting inmates from provincial jails out to work is putting the public at great risk is just fear-mongering.


Frankly, as long as our penal system's focus is punishment, and not rehabilitation, the crime problems are not likely to change much.
Where the hell did you get this idea from? Have you even read the Mission Statement of Corrections Canada? The word "punishment" doesn't even appear. Here's the short version, direct from their website:

The Correctional Service of Canada (CSC), as part of the criminal justice system and respecting the rule of law, contributes to public safety by actively encouraging and assisting offenders to become law-abiding citizens, while exercising reasonable, safe, secure and humane control.

Corrections Canada has many goals, but the two primary ones are:

- Rehabilitation of offenders. This is done through programs such as drug addiction counselling, education or job training.
- The protection of society. This is where offenders who are a risk to society are kept locked up in prison. Either for life (murderers or violent sex offenders) or for a period of time sufficient to allow for rehabilitation.

"Punishment" is not one of their "goals", although I'm sure people would think even going to jail is a form of "punishment".