[Jermyzy]

Not a full strike

CTV British Columbia - B.C. teachers file strike notice - CTV News (http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20110831/bc_teachers_strike_110831/20110831/?hub=BritishColumbiaHome)


B.C. teachers file strike notice

View Larger Image

Font-size: Share Print Comments(1)

FacebookTwitterDIGGStumbleUponNewsvineRedditdelici ousYahoo! Buzz
By: Andrew Weichel, ctvbc.ca

Date: Wednesday Aug. 31, 2011 4:36 PM PT

The B.C. Teachers Federation says it has filed a strike notice that will take effect on the first day of the 2011-2012 school year.

Federation president Susan Lambert announced the pending job action at a press conference Wednesday morning, lamenting the lack of progress achieved since bargaining began in March.

"What the government has done in this round of bargaining is come to the table with a mandate that is simply a refusal to bargain," Lambert said.

Teachers have been threatening a work-to-rule action for weeks as contract talks with the province have failed to result in an agreement.

Beginning Tuesday, classes will be in session, but teachers will not conduct routine administrative tasks, including filling out forms, collecting data or meeting with principals and other administrators.

They also will not be supervising playgrounds, writing report cards or conducting parent-teacher interviews.

But these terms only represents "Phase 1" of the job action, which teachers say could escalate if bargaining does not progress. They are asking for smaller class sizes, higher salaries and the right to bargain at the local level.

Education Minister George Abbott said Wednesday that the strike notice comes as no surprise, and the ministry is aware that teachers are dissatisfied with the bargaining process and the province's "net zero" mandate for all public sector wages.

"I respect that they would like to see [a wage increase]. We were able to provide a 12 per cent increase back in 2006," Abbott said. "We just don't have the flexibility that we had."

Abbott said he hopes the BCTF will eventually be convinced to accept the government's terms and avoid a full-blown strike.

"The possibility of having a protracted shutdown of schools would be unacceptable to any government, and certainly it would be unacceptable to us," Abbott said.

But Lambert said B.C. teachers' wages are falling behind their colleagues in other provinces, and have already sacrificed too much to give up on their other demands.

"Teachers for years sacrificed wages and benefit improvements in order to get collective agreement language around class size, composition and service ratios," Lambert said.

"What this government's doing is making choices like building the BC Place roof…. There is funding available."

[LP700-4]

Wait so what? No school on the 6th? :fuckyea:

[Jermyzy]

^Read again haha.

Beginning Tuesday, classes will be in session, but teachers will not conduct routine administrative tasks, including filling out forms, collecting data or meeting with principals and other administrators.

They also will not be supervising playgrounds, writing report cards or conducting parent-teacher interviews.

But these terms only represents "Phase 1" of the job action, which teachers say could escalate if bargaining does not progress. They are asking for smaller class sizes, higher salaries and the right to bargain at the local level.

[LP700-4]

Awwww, so we have to go to school, but no report cards? WTF?

[twitchyzero]

could you imagine if professors could go on a strike
next year's tuition: 12% hike

[Meowjin]

they can go on strike lol.

langara almost went on strike last semester.

[Meowjin]

universities are stupid anyways. charge so much and just roll around in bursary money.

[Graeme S]

Sigh. Media.

Collective bargaining legislation requires any union which wants to take *any action* (this includes something as small as wearing a pin to inform of the issue) must give strike notice, which is essentially worded:
"In the future at some point we will be willing to go on strike over some stuff if we can't reach an agreement in the mean time."


The comment about the 12% raise is semi-redirection. From the teachers I have talked to, the main issue is class size and composition; something that was removed from collective bargaining in the last contract negotiations because the then-government passed legislation (which was later found to be unconstitutional) mandating the removal of those provisions from any teaching contract. Something the media might not focus on is the contract before the 12%, teachers actually agreed to a 0-0-0 three-year agreement, on the condition the government increase hiring, reduce class sizes and increase the number of special needs assistants and teachers. The government failed to hold up their end and the teachers got pissed and dug in their heels.


Obviously, I'm taking the teachers' side on this one (not saying they or unions are always right), so it bothers me how people are already writing "teachers on strike!" Headlines when really they're still teaching and doing everything that students and parents would normally see, with the exception of report cards.

Also, teachers will meet with parents still, but will not participate in the board/administrator managed PTIs. So saying that they won't be doing parent-teacher interviews is a half-truth.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[cliffhanger33]

So no report cards will affect early admission to uni?

Although having no report cards may not be important to elementary and high school kids up to grade 11, I am pretty sure report cards are crucial to the grade 12s.............

[Death2Theft]

Fuck public schools, last thing I want is for my kid to get a degree on striking. Who goes on strike more often than teachers? It's every two years tops.

[q0192837465]

Man, sometimes I kinda want a union job. If I decide to strike tmr, my boss would just say cya.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[acrophobia]

Fuck public schools, last thing I want is for my kid to get a degree on striking. Who goes on strike more often than teachers? It's every two years tops.

So you are okay with your kids going to school for 13 years where every class is over-full and understaffed, as long as the teachers don't go on strike?

[tiger_handheld]

12% wage increase every 4 years -- not bad.

[taylor192]

From the teachers I have talked to, the main issue is class size and composition;

Then they can voluntarily take a pay cut so more teachers can be hired. Its that simple.

The suggestion that their wages and benefits are falling behind other provinces, yet they want to be able to locally collect bargain is hypocrisy. Of course their wages are below other provinces (namely Alberta) cause BC has an excess of teachers while Alberta struggles to fill positions. If they really wanted to collectively bargain locally they'd leave out what other provinces are making and focus on that there's a lot of teachers out of work who could be reducing class sizes if they took a pay cut to hire more.

Its disgusting that this union is holding kids hostage cause the want more money. I have 2 out of work teachers as friends who'd gladly take a job for less money.

Oh and lets add the $3B hole just introduced in the budget, it means no provincial union is getting an increase until this is filled. If the teachers were smart they would've campaigned to keep the HST as there'd be more money available. If you see a teacher complaining that had a "YES" HST sign, tell them they got what they voted for.

[chopstickz]

thank god i'm out of high school

[Mercy]

To make class sizes smaller you need more teachers right? You need money for teachers but they w ant higher wages...? Is that how it works? I can't think of any other ways to make classes smaller.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[Mr.HappySilp]

I don't get the whole class room size In Hk(where I study till grade 3), china, japan, Korea each classroom have around 40+ kids yet we did fine. I don't see how having just 30+ kids is so hard to teach.

[twitchyzero]

because 40+ is the norm...and back in the day if you weren't didn't give a two shit in class you'd probably end up getting beat with a stick.

[UnName]

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU this is my grade 12 year. They better not walk off the job if they can't settle this.

[Culverin]

pretty damned good job security
collective bargaining
12% every 4 years
guaranteed cost of living adjustment
2 months off


If you work in the private sector, you'll see how out of control that list is.
How many of those 5 items do you think we get in the private sector.
I'd give my left testicle for 2 of those items.

[goo3]

I don't get the whole class room size In Hk(where I study till grade 3), china, japan, Korea each classroom have around 40+ kids yet we did fine. I don't see how having just 30+ kids is so hard to teach.

I'm guessing it's not really about the kids.

[MG1]

I'd give my left testicle for 2 of those items.

or................. you can take the required courses and get into the profession.


Sick of politicians getting cushy job with great pension? Become one.

Jelly of how much nurses make with their overtime? Become one.

Hate execs who make six digit salary? Become one.

Sick of lawyers making a tonne of money? Become one.

Want to screw women all day long? Become a porn star.

Wanna be a rock star? Go right ahead......... money for nothing and your chicks for free.

Every job has its price/toll. Not everyone can do the job or is cut out for it.

If nurses were going on strike/job action, people would be all over how it's an easy job, blah, blah, blah. Walk a mile in people's shoes before you talk shit.

Sorry, Culverin. Not directed at you.

[Culverin]

No worries, no offence taken at all.
On the other side of the coin of "like perks, then become one", because of all those "perks" they already have, I don't think they have ever made a strong case for wage increases.

While I understand class sizes (especially for children) does factor into how much attention a teacher can give each student. It very much seems that it has become a bargaining chip and a bit of an unrelated excuse so they can string along for wage increases. I'd honestly have a lot more respect for the teacher's side if they went to bat for updated text books, teaching materials, equipment, paid workshops and the like. Maybe the teachers do that kind of stuff right now, but it happens behind the scenes? It sure as heck isn't public that it's a priority for them. So if they deserve my support, they sure as heck haven't demonstrated it and therefore don't command it.

Anyways, back to the main topic. I'm just saying, as things stand, their position sounds pretty cushy already. They just plain haven't made a strong case for to improve their compensation. And jelly or not, this isn't about some 6-figure Exec or Blood Sucking Layer. It's kinda my tax money going into it. So I do get to voice my opinion.


Side note:
I know the education system (especially at higher levels) is about jumping through a bunch of hoops. But unfortunately, that's not how I learn.

I found this quite enlightening.
RSA Animate - Changing Education Paradigms - YouTube

[MG1]

Interesting, indeed..........

[MG1]

No worries, no offence taken at all.

I'm glad. I tend to say too much.

[goo3]

While I understand class sizes (especially for children) does factor into how much attention a teacher can give each student. It very much seems that it has become a bargaining chip and a bit of an unrelated excuse so they can string along for wage increases. I'd honestly have a lot more respect for the teacher's side if they went to bat for updated text books, teaching materials, equipment, paid workshops and the like. Maybe the teachers do that kind of stuff right now, but it happens behind the scenes? It sure as heck isn't public that it's a priority for them. So if they deserve my support, they sure as heck haven't demonstrated it and therefore don't command it.


The pie is only so big. More money for that stuff kinda means less money for wages. I don't blame them for trying to bargain. At the same time, we don't have to believe everything they say.

[taylor192]

or................. you can take the required courses and get into the profession.
I know what you're getting at, if you cannot beat'em join'em, yet after having worked in the government for a bit I could never return knowing how much time/money I wasted due to stupid rules.

Some of us have a conscience... surprisingly :D

[C5_Ryder]

pretty damned good job security
collective bargaining
12% every 4 years
guaranteed cost of living adjustment
2 months off


If you work in the private sector, you'll see how out of control that list is.
How many of those 5 items do you think we get in the private sector.
I'd give my left testicle for 2 of those items.

Most people go into those types of civic jobs knowing the benefits. Your not going to get rich doing this but its a rewarding and stable career. If those benefits arent present, they wouldnt attract a lot of potential teachers.

The private sector has way more earning potential and perks IF your good at what you do.

[UFO]

or................. you can take the required courses and get into the profession.



Most people go into those types of civic jobs knowing the benefits. Your not going to get rich doing this but its a rewarding and stable career. If those benefits arent present, they wouldnt attract a lot of potential teachers.


I think that's the problem with teachers, at least in BC. The perks attract the good teachers, and the average joe schmoe who shouldn't be a teacher in the first place. There are a LOT of crappy teachers in the system, those who don't really care about the education of the children, but have taken on the profession because of its perks (and there are many of them as listed) and see teaching as just another job, putting in the bare minimum just to get by. These teachers are clogging up the system and preventing those who are passionate about teaching from doing the job which they love. These are the teachers who are unable to handle class sizes larger than 25 because they are unable/unwilling to put in the extra time and effort for the betterment of the children as a part of their job responsibility.

You can argue that there are these types of people in any field, but it seemed like when I was in university, teaching was the fall back plan of many who didn't know what to do with their useless bachelor's degree after graduation. At the other end of the spectrum, if retirement aged teachers don't have to retire by a certain age, this would also discourages cycling of young teachers into the system. Instead the union protects these seniors who often times are so jaded and tired of teaching that they are there just to babysit and read essentially, and these are the same teachers that get paid the most due to seniority.

If teachers were held more accountable, administrators had the ability to hire/fire based on performance, then everything would look much different. The union will never let this happen obviously, which brings us back to square one.

My views may be biased as my wife was a teacher by training but has given up on getting a steady position after being on the substitute list for 6 years, half of those years getting calls once or twice a week to work (and many times just for a morning or afternoon)--we all got bills to pay right? I've also known acquaintances and friends who have entered the field and were really not the teacher type of personalities.

[MR_BIGGS]

Matt Damon defends teachers against a [expletive] cameraman! - YouTube

[Jermyzy]

If nurses were going on strike/job action, people would be all over how it's an easy job, blah, blah, blah. Walk a mile in people's shoes before you talk shit.


My point is in this day and age, it's ridiculous that any group of workers, let alone a professional body is allowed to go on strike. Try going "on strike" in the private sector and see if you have a job to come back to the next day. Asking for guaranteed wage increases during a recession when people have lost jobs and when the HST referendum has put the province in a hole is not going to garner a lot of support IMO.

[MR_BIGGS]

This is from my friend who is a teacher:

She just started at a new school as a full time i think after being a sub for many years. Her classroom has no furniture or books.

In the school I'm in now we are just waiting for three to retire so we can do something good in there. By the time they do retire all our ideas and passion will be spent. It's just a sad state of affairs...ie me and having no furniture or books...school board response? We will get u furniture to make it a functioning classroom but it won't be what you need...as for books...sol. When they have the right furniture meaning age appropriate desks and chairs, we will get them but no promises. We have two smart boards in our school ready to be put up...can't cause board won't pay to put them up and we aren't allowed to cross unions and do it ourself. I want bargaining to address the poor functioning of schools and it's resources. It wont. Instead if my friend dies I can take two weeks off work paid

Although she wants a higher salary, she'd rather have people walk through the school and see the scraps they are working with.

[will068]

My point is in this day and age, it's ridiculous that any group of workers, let alone a professional body is allowed to go on strike. Try going "on strike" in the private sector and see if you have a job to come back to the next day. Asking for guaranteed wage increases during a recession when people have lost jobs and when the HST referendum has put the province in a hole is not going to garner a lot of support IMO.

If you exploit more money from your employers, why not ? It's business. At the end of the day, you try to bring home as much $$$ as you can.

[Tapioca]

Teachers start out making 40K a year and top out at around 80K. (after 25+ years)

I'd be curious to see what RS thinks they should be paid. 35K? 50K?

[snowball]

I think that's the problem with teachers, at least in BC. The perks attract the good teachers, and the average joe schmoe who shouldn't be a teacher in the first place. There are a LOT of crappy teachers in the system, those who don't really care about the education of the children, but have taken on the profession because of its perks (and there are many of them as listed) and see teaching as just another job, putting in the bare minimum just to get by. These teachers are clogging up the system and preventing those who are passionate about teaching from doing the job which they love. These are the teachers who are unable to handle class sizes larger than 25 because they are unable/unwilling to put in the extra time and effort for the betterment of the children as a part of their job responsibility.

You can argue that there are these types of people in any field, but it seemed like when I was in university, teaching was the fall back plan of many who didn't know what to do with their useless bachelor's degree after graduation. At the other end of the spectrum, if retirement aged teachers don't have to retire by a certain age, this would also discourages cycling of young teachers into the system. Instead the union protects these seniors who often times are so jaded and tired of teaching that they are there just to babysit and read essentially, and these are the same teachers that get paid the most due to seniority.

If teachers were held more accountable, administrators had the ability to hire/fire based on performance, then everything would look much different. The union will never let this happen obviously, which brings us back to square one.

My views may be biased as my wife was a teacher by training but has given up on getting a steady position after being on the substitute list for 6 years, half of those years getting calls once or twice a week to work (and many times just for a morning or afternoon)--we all got bills to pay right? I've also known acquaintances and friends who have entered the field and were really not the teacher type of personalities.

Any classroom whether run by a passionate teacher or a joe schmoe can be improved by reduced class sizes.

There are classes with with 28-29 kids and 5 of them might have IEPs and special needs. That's a lot to handle regardless of the teacher. But it is true that there are too many teachers there only for an easy pay check and don't really care about the students.

[dignatas]

Any classroom whether run by a passionate teacher or a joe schmoe can be improved by reduced class sizes.

There are classes with with 28-29 kids and 5 of them might have IEPs and special needs. That's a lot to handle regardless of the teacher. But it is true that there are too many teachers there only for an easy pay check and don't really care about the students.

my tourism teacher in richmond back in gr. 11 and 12 didn't give a damn about being in the school and teach. She just showed movies and made us do power points at the computer lab all the time and she only teach 6 out of 8 courses throughout the whole year! Easy easy paycheque and not giving a rats ass about students doing so well. I personally think it's too easy to be a teacher and get such big fat cheques.

[UFO]

Any classroom whether run by a passionate teacher or a joe schmoe can be improved by reduced class sizes.


Not doubting that at all. It would be even easier to run a classroom with 20 kids, 15 even. But the argument is round about. Want smaller class sizes, need to hire more teachers, need more money to pay more teachers, money needs to come from somewhere. The union seems to be asking for more and more money for its members, without addressing the fact of where this money has to come from. Unions (not just BCTF) really should have campaigned HARD to their members to vote to keep the HST and give themselves the best chance to get what they want. Having the $3B hole from voting HST out essentially gives the government the excuse they need to tell the unions to F off.

If teachers want a reduced and more easily manageable workload with smaller class sizes, then they need to be prepared to be paid less. In what other industry can anybody make a successful pitch to do less work and be paid the same or more?

Using the "think about what's best for the children" line to try and garner sympathy for the cause is pretty weak IMO given the state of the economy and situation these days.

[Anjew]

my tourism teacher in richmond back in gr. 11 and 12 didn't give a damn about being in the school and teach. She just showed movies and made us do power points at the computer lab all the time and she only teach 6 out of 8 courses throughout the whole year! Easy easy paycheque and not giving a rats ass about students doing so well. I personally think it's too easy to be a teacher and get such big fat cheques.

thats poor management by the school imo...

[RabidRat]

This is from my friend who is a teacher:

She just started at a new school as a full time i think after being a sub for many years. Her classroom has no furniture or books.



Although she wants a higher salary, she'd rather have people walk through the school and see the scraps they are working with.

Geez. Which area is this school in?

[drunkrussian]

Teachers start out making 40K a year and top out at around 80K. (after 25+ years)

I'd be curious to see what RS thinks they should be paid. 35K? 50K?

thats a starting pay of 40k for 10 months of work. thats a LOT. they are simply not underpaid, i just dont buy it. the average business graduate starts at 40k for 12 months and unpaid overtime
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[twitchyzero]

^i'd argue teachers are underpaid
if you step back and look at the big picture, they are such a huge influence on the future generations

they should start at least with 50k

and 40k is if you find full-time...not 6am on-call 2 days a week subbing

[Tapioca]

thats a starting pay of 40k for 10 months of work. thats a LOT. they are simply not underpaid, i just dont buy it. the average business graduate starts at 40k for 12 months and unpaid overtime
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

When teachers coach teams or sponsor clubs after classes are finished, that's unpaid time.

I personally don't think that a person in business is any more important to society than a teacher is just because they work longer hours for the same pay. And the business graduate has a higher career trajectory than a teacher does unless the teacher leaves the union and goes into administration. A person in business can easily make 6 figures in 5 years.

[Ch28]

Teachers start out making 40K a year and top out at around 80K. (after 25+ years)

I'd be curious to see what RS thinks they should be paid. 35K? 50K?

thats a starting pay of 40k for 10 months of work. thats a LOT. they are simply not underpaid, i just dont buy it. the average business graduate starts at 40k for 12 months and unpaid overtime
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

They're underpaid.

They have to spend time outside of regular work hours to properly plan a good teaching curriculum. That doesn't even include the time spent off work marking papers, hw, projects etc. They don't just leave work and forget about it until the next morning because a lot of what they do gets brought home.

High school kids are at the phase where they're the easiest to influence. Having GOOD teachers that are being paid a relatively good amount of salary equals happy teachers which are more likely to bring a positive attitude to school and their student's lives.

[Nocardia]

They're underpaid.

They have to spend time outside of regular work hours to properly plan a good teaching curriculum. That doesn't even include the time spent off work marking papers, hw, projects etc. They don't just leave work and forget about it until the next morning because a lot of what they do gets brought home.

High school kids are at the phase where they're the easiest to influence. Having GOOD teachers that are being paid a relatively good amount of salary equals happy teachers which are more likely to bring a positive attitude to school and their student's lives.

Everyone is underpaid.
We get it, they influence the future and spend time at home doing things.
Show me a profession that doesn't spend time outside work hours getting ready for the next day. It's supposed to be a profession, do you think all these teachers didn't know what they were getting into prior to starting their jobs?
I personally believe 50k is a good wage for 10 months of work (+vacation days). I understand it is extremely difficult to find a full time job that pays this wage but in my opinion I think they make decent money for the job and should NOT be getting 12% every 4 years with guaranteed COLA (ridiculous, my union signed a new contact that has 0 wage increases). It is a difficult time for everyone, spending more on tools that make people more effective is a higher priority.


Sorry to rant but it is a sensitive topic to all.

[Death2Theft]

No more 12% after 25 years to adjust for inflation or anything?
Teachers start out making 40K a year and top out at around 80K. (after 25+ years)

I'd be curious to see what RS thinks they should be paid. 35K? 50K?

[melloman]

I'm sorry but teachers bitch and complain ALOT these days.
In the economy right now, they should be happy to have a fucking job. Especially now that by 2013 HST will be gone and BC just threw itself into a $1.6 billion debt. I find it funny how they keep wanting more and more, yet are kids marks going up? Are we getting "smaller" or "better" people for our future generations.

Just like with any job, there's a reason to raise wages, not just because "I want more money." I figure if teachers want more money and considering a part of it comes from our taxes, they should show us WHY they DESERVE more money.

Only because STRIKING EVERY 2 YEARS is getting REALLY annoying.

[taylor192]

They're underpaid.

They have to spend time outside of regular work hours to properly plan a good teaching curriculum. That doesn't even include the time spent off work marking papers, hw, projects etc. They don't just leave work and forget about it until the next morning because a lot of what they do gets brought home.

High school kids are at the phase where they're the easiest to influence. Having GOOD teachers that are being paid a relatively good amount of salary equals happy teachers which are more likely to bring a positive attitude to school and their student's lives.

The market decides what they are paid, and right now they are overpaid as there is an abundance of teachers in BC.

I want GOOD teachers too, yet the union doesn't allow this with its tenure rules. Bad teachers cannot be fired, they are just moved around.

If you really wanted GOOD teachers you'd let the market set salaries and abolish collective bargaining. That way GOOD teachers can command higher salaries, and bad teachers would be paid less or let go.

[taylor192]

Any classroom whether run by a passionate teacher or a joe schmoe can be improved by reduced class sizes.
Bandaid solutions suck, any good teacher will tell you that.

Fire bad teachers, hire good teachers at less from the pool of available teachers looking for work. Problem solved if the union and collective bargaining was thrown out.

[taylor192]

When teachers coach teams or sponsor clubs after classes are finished, that's unpaid time.

My friend's father coached my little league baseball team, for free. Why? Cause he enjoyed baseball.

If the teachers don't want to do it, GTFO and let a passionate parent do it instead.

[TouringTeg]

Not a good profession to go in if you want to live in BC. It is very competitive and like was posted there are too many teachers. You can spend years on the on call list before getting a shot at a full time position (at least here in Victoria). If you are willing to go to a remote town you may have a better shot.

[UFO]

The market decides what they are paid, and right now they are overpaid as there is an abundance of teachers in BC.

I want GOOD teachers too, yet the union doesn't allow this with its tenure rules. Bad teachers cannot be fired, they are just moved around.

If you really wanted GOOD teachers you'd let the market set salaries and abolish collective bargaining. That way GOOD teachers can command higher salaries, and bad teachers would be paid less or let go.

+1 to all of the above. If the profession was truly underpaid, nobody would be lining up to do it.

If teachers really feel underpaid for the amount of time and work needed to put in, then they could just as easily have found another profession that did not require those extra volunteer hours. Judging by the abundance of 'trained' teachers without a job and halfassed teachers in the system, who fully understand the workload prior to signing up but also understand all the perks of being a teacher, I would say they are not underpaid at all.

I appreciate and am not trying to downplay the workload of the teachers themselves. But this sense of entitlement that the union is spewing out is getting old, and they are essentially holding the government hostage with the children as collateral.

[iEatClams]

^^ I have no beef with the unions for trying to get raise increases.

I believe in trying to protect the middle class and not letting corporations drive down wages and working standards and screwing people just so the rich can get richer. It's difficult for the poor and lower class to succeed.

We shouldn't be competing with newly developed or third world countries. Which is why im not a big fan of corporations (even though i made shiet load of money off of stocks).

The only beef i have with unions is that they protect BAD workers.

Examples: cops screw up, gets suspended with pay, teachers that cant teach shiet or teachers that harass students do not get reprimanded or fired at all.

This is the only thing i have against unions. and honestly once you've worked quite a bit in different industries, you are glad there's organizations out there trying to protect your wages, cause if corporations can find a way to pay u $10 an hour, they would.

[iEatClams]

pretty damned good job security
collective bargaining
12% every 4 years
guaranteed cost of living adjustment
2 months off


If you work in the private sector, you'll see how out of control that list is.
How many of those 5 items do you think we get in the private sector.
I'd give my left testicle for 2 of those items.

hmm. shouldn't this be one of the goals of our society? why the FUCK are we trying to bring down wages and the standard of living for the average person?

How many of us want to not have raises? Yes lets have inflation reduce our purchasing power.

Our government is letting us down by reducing the real wages of the middle class.

Sure the average income of CEOs and the rich have gone up significantly, but for the average person the real wages have barely kept up with inflation.

The only problem with teachers is that they dont have a great incentive program to reward great teachers and poor and under-performing ones do not get disciplined for their poor behaviours.

[iEatClams]

There are a LOT of crappy teachers in the system, those who don't really care about the education of the children, but have taken on the profession because of its perks (and there are many of them as listed) and see teaching as just another job, putting in the bare minimum just to get by. These teachers are clogging up the system and preventing those who are passionate about teaching from doing the job which they love. These are the teachers who are unable to handle class sizes larger than 25 because they are unable/unwilling to put in the extra time and effort for the betterment of the children as a part of their job responsibility.




This is what i hate about the unions, cause they wont allow it, but this main issue here, if fixed, can help society immensely.

Education is so important and teachers that can engage and motivate students can improve our society.

[dbaz]

pretty damned good job security
collective bargaining
12% every 4 years
guaranteed cost of living adjustment
2 months off


If you work in the private sector, you'll see how out of control that list is.
How many of those 5 items do you think we get in the private sector.
I'd give my left testicle for 2 of those items.

my mom was a teacher. worked in richmond, lived in richmond. gets paid from 9-5. at school mon-fri from 7-7. + extra unpaid hours marking and calling parents to try to help their children. few hours on the weekend to even spend with her children because she had to mark, create curriculum or change it because they government wanted to add a 15minute fitness time. you can look at your 5 items but they just cover the reality of the job which is maany unpaid hours and unappreciated work.

[darkfroggy]

Honestly, there's no clear answer to this. There are good, underpaid teachers and there are bad, overpaid teachers.

I will say this: If you think the education system is fine as-is, you're an idiot.

[goo3]

hmm. shouldn't this be one of the goals of our society? why the FUCK are we trying to bring down wages and the standard of living for the average person?


Their wages are coming from taxes. Fair is OK. Being soft during negotiations is not (ie stuff like defined benefit pensions).

[carisear]

my mom was a teacher. worked in richmond, lived in richmond. gets paid from 9-5. at school mon-fri from 7-7. + extra unpaid hours marking and calling parents to try to help their children. few hours on the weekend to even spend with her children because she had to mark, create curriculum or change it because they government wanted to add a 15minute fitness time. you can look at your 5 items but they just cover the reality of the job which is maany unpaid hours and unappreciated work.


hmm.

my XXX was a YYY. Worked in ZZZ, lived in in ZZZ. gets paid from 9-5, worked 7-7 and weekends. The boss had a change in directive, so person XXX had to do soooooo much more work. Not only that, but they had to work 12 whole months out of the year, with only the legally required 2 weeks vacation. Person XXX worked so many unpaid hours, and did unappreciated work.

[highfive]

It's not about bringing down wages or giving higher salaries. If a good teacher can really teach, I'm all for paying 6 figures for his/her salary. But how many of us that has gone through high school and seen those lazy ass teachers just sit around and practically do nothing? Why are we overpaying that person and underpaying the good teacher? It's the unions, the collective bargaining agreement doesn't allow any competition among the teachers. Good teachers should get paid more. Bad teachers should get paid less.

[Jermyzy]

my mom was a teacher. worked in richmond, lived in richmond. gets paid from 9-5. at school mon-fri from 7-7. + extra unpaid hours marking and calling parents to try to help their children. few hours on the weekend to even spend with her children because she had to mark, create curriculum or change it because they government wanted to add a 15minute fitness time. you can look at your 5 items but they just cover the reality of the job which is maany unpaid hours and unappreciated work.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't teachers a salaried profession (e.g. not paid an hourly wage). My understanding, as a salaried professional you are paid a set amount per year to perform a set job (I would consider teaching,marking, and designing curriculum as part of the job description) regardless of hours worked (less or more)

[taylor192]

pretty damned good job security
collective bargaining
12% every 4 years
guaranteed cost of living adjustment
2 months off


If you work in the private sector, you'll see how out of control that list is.
How many of those 5 items do you think we get in the private sector.
I'd give my left testicle for 2 of those items.

my mom was a teacher. worked in richmond, lived in richmond. gets paid from 9-5. at school mon-fri from 7-7. + extra unpaid hours marking and calling parents to try to help their children. few hours on the weekend to even spend with her children because she had to mark, create curriculum or change it because they government wanted to add a 15minute fitness time. you can look at your 5 items but they just cover the reality of the job which is maany unpaid hours and unappreciated work.
My cousins are teachers, according to their Facebook pages they had a fantastic summer spending most days on the lake.

The job is what you make of it, your mom did a lot, yet that's not the average teacher, nor are my cousins the average teacher.

[taylor192]

The only problem with teachers is that they dont have a great incentive program to reward great teachers and poor and under-performing ones do not get disciplined for their poor behaviours.
This isn't just a problem with teachers, its every union that had the ability to collectively bargain. good employees never benefit from collective bargaining as they could readily command more individually.

[dbaz]

These are the people who teach you, make you what you are in the future. They should make more based on that alone its that simple. Not everyone can be a teacher, not everyone has the ability to help those exceed. But those who can deserve to make more then they currently do.
I realize there are shitty teachers and they should be dealt with properly. But because of some shitty teachers you cant rule them all bad and forget about those who actually care and help so many kids.
You wouldn't have school sports, you wouldn't have recess unless these people really cared to sacrifice time they aren't actually suppose to be getting paid for or are considered their own breaks. Field trips aren't a requirement and neither is them giving you extra help on your homework. The worst is most of you guys take this stuff for granted.
They don't get much coverage for the items they have to buy so children can learn that the school board wont refund because the school board and the government are shit. These extra charges include new resource books to update curriculum, items for the class that are needed that no one will supply (including furniture), pens/pencils etc. for parents who believe school is a place where everything is paid for their kid.
Maybe some of you guys just don't give a shit about learning and take it for granted that people should waste 12-15 hrs a because they have a salary. These professions are key to the future. Yet people want to take away their stuff and roast them.

[MG1]

dbaz, you have to understand that this is RS, it's a bunch of guys who spew shit because they can.

School is something everyone has gone through, so everyone thinks they are an expert. I am a parent of three kids who have gone through the educational system and although the system is not perfect, there are a lot of good teachers out there. As in any profession, it's always the bad ones that people remember.

You ask any parent who have had their children in schools for a while and most of them are supportive of the teachers in their schools. They know how difficult it is to teach the children of today. There was a comment made here about 40+ kids in other countries....... um, the kids in those countries are not like the kids here. Not by a long shot.

In NA, we have kids who come to school with little to no skills. It used to be that children could read by the age of three. All my children did, btw. That was normal. Now, they show up not knowing how to tie their shoes or know how to spell their name in Kindergarten. Add to that, the behaviour kids, the kids with ADD, ADHD, ODD, Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, sexually, mentally, and physically abused kids, yada yada yada.

You know which parents complain about the schools and teachers the most? The ones with kids who are the worst behaved in the school. Gee, I wonder why? The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

My wife and I were heavily involved in the PAC (Parent Advisory Council), while our three children were in the system. We were involved in all three levels, local, district, and provincial. It's an eye opener to say the least. The ministry, the school board, the administration, the union, and finally, the teachers. It's not as plain and simple as it looks. There's a lot of stuff that goes on in the background.

On a side note, all teachers (with the exception of two, maybe three people) in BC must belong to the BCTF in order to teach. Doesn't matter if you are in a private or public school. There are some teachers out there who don't support the union, but not many go against the directives of the union. If any of you have gone to union meetings of any kind you know what that's like. Get kicked out of the union and there goes your career in BC, and most likely anywhere else in Canada.

Every time bargaining comes up, teachers cringe. Teacher bashing in September is like clockwork with the media. Hopefully, it won't drag out and things can get back to normal.

[Death2Theft]

If they let the kids grade the teachers on their teaching I bet alot of changes would happen real quick.

[snowball]

If they let the kids grade the teachers on their teaching I bet alot of changes would happen real quick.

And there is constant discussion that goes on about how you "evaluate" teachers. What makes a good teacher? the teacher that is able to ensure that his or her students will get high provincial exam marks but no life skills or ambitions? What about the teacher that focuses on the opposite and gives students hope where there would be none. Or maybe the teacher that teaches more than the curriculum asks for which could benefit the students greatly but won't be tested on? Do we teach to the exam or are exams even necessary?

Too many questions and you couldn't really evaluate the average teacher while you're in school, how do you know the impact of a teacher until later in life? what do students know about ministry standards and IRPs? and what is the impact of students that just have a personal vendetta against a certain teacher. I had lots of teachers whose attitudes I hated but could still teach very well.

[taylor192]

These are the people who teach you, make you what you are in the future. They should make more based on that alone its that simple. Not everyone can be a teacher, not everyone has the ability to help those exceed. But those who can deserve to make more then they currently do.
Its not that simple, the fact you think it is shows just how badly your teachers failed teaching you. BC has an excess of teachers, increasing salaries is only going to draw more people into the profession chasing the almighty dollar without a system to filter the good from the bad.

The kind of good teacher that wants to inspire the next great young minds will become a teacher regardless of the salary.

Also if you haven't noticed we're in a bit of a recession with high unemployment, throwing money at this problem is only going to make it worse by attracting people who shouldn't be teachers to a well paid job with great benefits.

They don't get much coverage for the items they have to buy so children can learn that the school board wont refund because the school board and the government are shit. These extra charges include new resource books to update curriculum, items for the class that are needed that no one will supply (including furniture), pens/pencils etc. for parents who believe school is a place where everything is paid for their kid.

This is a provincial issue, not a union issue. Ontario dealt with this by incorporating into the provincial education system that every school will provide all required resources for every class offered. CTV did a special on 6 different teachers from different provinces to highlight the difference. Maybe if more people watched the news they'd be informed.

That said, I still think they are over paid in BC and reducing salaries would solve the problems the union has.

[MG1]

Out of the ten provinces, where do BC teachers stand as far as wages go?

This in a province where cost of living is high.

[dbaz]

Like i said i realize some teachers aren't the greatest. Maybe if the union stepped up to the table and offered an option to deal with under performing teachers it would be more appealing to not only you but parents. But its a union so that's never going to happen. If you are going to complain about a recession and unemployment why don't you look at real companies that can help with that but prefer cheap overseas labor. I'm sure if they weren't hellbent at finding ways for larger and larger profits they could help out more with fixing the recession. You know create jobs by opening a factory here and not creating record profits. Guess I'm not the only who had my teacher fail to teach me something

[falcon]

On a side note, all teachers (with the exception of two, maybe three people) in BC must belong to the BCTF in order to teach. Doesn't matter if you are in a private or public school. There are some teachers out there who don't support the union, but not many go against the directives of the union. If any of you have gone to union meetings of any kind you know what that's like. Get kicked out of the union and there goes your career in BC, and most likely anywhere else in Canada.


Just so were clear here your last statement is not true. I went to a private school and the majority of the teachers were not in the union. I remember having to go to school in the big strike back in the early 2000`s because our teachers actually showed up for work. This was the same in Elementary and High School.

[MG1]

Just so were clear here your last statement is not true. I went to a private school and the majority of the teachers were not in the union. I remember having to go to school in the big strike back in the early 2000`s because our teachers actually showed up for work. This was the same in Elementary and High School.

Well, back then, every district bargained locally. Langley teachers would go on strike, while Surrey teachers would be working.

Private schools negotiate on their own. Overall, they make less.


EDIT: I just checked regarding private school teachers. Since they negotiate on their own, they may not have to be in the BCTF. I stand corrected. My bad. I'm sure they still have to be part of the BC College of Teachers.

[Jermyzy]

Out of the ten provinces, where do BC teachers stand as far as wages go?

This in a province where cost of living is high.

You could say that for many professions...

[taylor192]

Out of the ten provinces, where do BC teachers stand as far as wages go?

This in a province where cost of living is high. Moot point. I make less as a software developer in Vancouver than in Ottawa, cause Ottawa has a much larger high tech market and more competition for jobs.

My old managers son made 50% more working at Canadian Tire in Calgary than in Ottawa, cause Alberta was desperate for workers.

There are a lot of out of work teachers in BC so obviously the high cost of living is not a factor, again your point is moot.

[MG1]

If BC teachers were in the top five and they were asking for more, then who gives a flying fuck. If they were dead last or in the bottom five, then it's a different story. They just want what's fair.

BTW, what's up with you man? You have a hate on for teachers? Did one molest you or something?

[taylor192]

Like i said i realize some teachers aren't the greatest. Maybe if the union stepped up to the table and offered an option to deal with under performing teachers it would be more appealing to not only you but parents. But its a union so that's never going to happen. If you are going to complain about a recession and unemployment why don't you look at real companies that can help with that but prefer cheap overseas labor. I'm sure if they weren't hellbent at finding ways for larger and larger profits they could help out more with fixing the recession. You know create jobs by opening a factory here and not creating record profits. Guess I'm not the only who had my teacher fail to teach me something
Dude, you're an idiot. Take a basic economics course before you start lecturing how to fix a recession.

Like you said, the union will not back down on collective bargaining so why should we give into any off the teachers demand?

As for maximizing profits, you're arguing the dumb "main" street vs "wall" street crap that uneducated people do not understand. My RRSPs are invested in wall street and need to make 7-8% or else I won't meet my retirement goals and will sell their stock to find a better deal. Our economy averages 2-3% GDP increases, so please tell me how I get 7-8% from 2-3%? Come on, don't let down your elementary school math teacher, show me the math that makes this work.

You cannot. Now stuff it and stay on topic. Teachers are overpaid and there's no more money for raises.

[MG1]

A lot of districts in BC have declining enrollment numbers. Surrey is one of the few districts bucking the trend.

Out of work teachers.......... where do you get the numbers? Just curious........

[taylor192]

If BC teachers were in the top five and they were asking for more, then who gives a flying fuck. If they were dead last or in the bottom five, then it's a different story. They just want what's fair.

BTW, what's up with you man? You have a hate on for teachers? Did one molest you or something?
What is wrong with you that that is your first thought? You're sick.

I've already defined "fair" in a previous post. The market sets what is fair, and right now it is not fair that many good teachers cannot find jobs while employed teachers complain they need more help in the classroom. Of the employed teachers actually meant they wanted the best for students with reduced class sizes, more money for supplies, ... They'd take a pay cut so out could happen.

[MG1]

What is wrong with you that that is your first thought? You're sick.

No, what's sick is your obsession with this thread..........

[taylor192]

A lot of dstricts in BC have declining enrollment numbers. Surrey is one of the few districts bucking the trend.

Out of work teachers.......... where do you get the numbers? Just curious........
This post shows how out of touch you are, you're arguing without even knowing the facts.

I'm not the only person in this thread who knows there's lots of unemployed teachers in BC, so go look it up, i'm not doing your research for you. Go do some research before you open your stupid mouth again.

[taylor192]

What is wrong with you that that is your first thought? You're sick.

No, what's sick is your obsession with this thread..........
Irony is lost on you.

[Vege]

What is considered fair though? Any profession you get into does not guarantee you will be compensated accordingly compared to the cost of living of where you work. You either adapt by moving somewhere else where the cost of living is less or you change professions. Most people don't have the luxury of going on strike and forcing your employer to pay you what you think you deserve.

[MG1]

Wow, calling someone else an idiot and then telling me to shut my stupid mouth. Nice.

[taylor192]

On a side note, all teachers (with the exception of two, maybe three people) in BC must belong to the BCTF in order to teach. Doesn't matter if you are in a private or public school. There are some teachers out there who don't support the union, but not many go against the directives of the union. If any of you have gone to union meetings of any kind you know what that's like. Get kicked out of the union and there goes your career in BC, and most likely anywhere else in Canada.


Just so were clear here your last statement is not true. I went to a private school and the majority of the teachers were not in the union. I remember having to go to school in the big strike back in the early 2000`s because our teachers actually showed up for work. This was the same in Elementary and High School.
Thank you.

He obviously just posts without any actual knowledge as private schools not being part of the union is common knowledge amongst anyone that knows something on this topic. Maybe if he's embarrassed enough by pointing put how little he knows he'll either stop posting or go educate himself before posting.... Yet I have a feeling that is asking too much.

[MG1]

Irony is lost on you.

True...........

[UFO]

A reason for declining enrollment, and while this is just a small percentage for now, is parents are increasingly enrolling their kids into the private system. Parents would rather pay EXTRA on top of the taxes they are already paying to put their kids through schooling in the public system. That should tell you a little bit about the state of the public system and how impressed parents are with the union... the problem lies much much deeper than the union and what the union wants. I don't blame the union for trying to bargain for as much as they can get, it's their job. But let's get real, and try and solve the real problems at hand here instead of playing political hardball and throwing money at problems to make them even worse.

"These are the people who teach you, make you what you are in the future. They should make more based on that alone its that simple. Not everyone can be a teacher, not everyone has the ability to help those exceed. But those who can deserve to make more then they currently do."

I have to say that ^^ is the worst logic ever, and certainly naive (no offense intended). You say not everyone can be a teacher and help students succeed, so HOW do you prevent those who cannot from being a teacher and freeloading off your system that is set up to reward those who can teach and deserve the money and benefits?

To stray off topic a bit, some of THE worst teachers I ever had were actually in my first couple years of university. The ones that did not have much seniority and were assigned to teach uninteresting weeder courses. Sure these prof's all had PhD's and were probably all very smart, but I'll be damned if they could effectively communicate their respective levels of education and help us learn. If education was as important as you think it is, you would clearly think that the university level should have the best ability to teach of all, no?

[MG1]

Thank you.

He obviously just posts without any actual knowledge as private schools not being part of the union is common knowledge amongst anyone that knows something on this topic. Maybe if he's embarrassed enough by pointing put how little he knows he'll either stop posting or go educate himself before posting.... Yet I have a feeling that is asking too much.

Stop being full of yourself.

I made a mistake and admitted to it. What's the big deal? It's not like you haven't fucked up in the past.



Private schools cannot be part of any union............ you mean teachers of private schools.

[taylor192]

What is considered fair though? Any profession you get into does not guarantee you will be compensated accordingly compared to the cost of living of where you work. You either adapt by moving somewhere else where the cost of living is less or you change professions. Most people don't have the luxury of going on strike and forcing your employer to pay you what you think you deserve.
X2

Fair will be worked out by the market. If an employer cannot find enough workers cause people moved away, won't move there, or took different jobs then they need to make the position more attractive, usually with higher pay or better benefits.

There are more than enough teachers in BC and i'm suck of them complaining they are not paid as well as Alberta teachers. If they want to make what Alberta teachers make, move. Alberta needs teachers and is thus paying more to entice them to come.

[MG1]

A reason for declining enrollment, and while this is just a small percentage for now, is parents are increasingly enrolling their kids into the private system. Parents would rather pay EXTRA on top of the taxes they are already paying to put their kids through schooling in the public system. That should tell you a little bit about the state of the public system and how impressed parents are with the union...

Private schools offer a better learning environment for kids. Public schools cannot turn people away - they take everybody.

French Immerson programmes were once thought of as a private school in a public school setting. Your kid had to be able to handle the extra load and expectations. The classes were full of students who were there to learn. And, the parents were uber involved with their children's education. Learning in that situation was ideal. I'm referring to the late immersion program.

You don't see bad ass to the core types in private schools or in French Immersion classes. More gets done when the teacher doesn't have to deal with brats.

[Jermyzy]

X2

Fair will be worked out by the market. If an employer cannot find enough workers cause people moved away, won't move there, or took different jobs then they need to make the position more attractive, usually with higher pay or better benefits.

There are more than enough teachers in BC and i'm suck of them complaining they are not paid as well as Alberta teachers. If they want to make what Alberta teachers make, move. Alberta needs teachers and is thus paying more to entice them to come.


That's what I've been saying all along too. In my profession, BC is the lowest paid province. If I tried to "go on strike" to demand a higher wage, I'd have no job to come back to the next day. I could move to another province that pays a higher wage, but I choose to stay in BC where all my friends and family are.

[Meowjin]

your a pharmacist lol you still make 6 figures dont act like you dont make alot

[falcon]

EDIT: I just checked regarding private school teachers. Since they negotiate on their own, they may not have to be in the BCTF. I stand corrected. My bad. I'm sure they still have to be part of the BC College of Teachers.

Yeah they are part of the College but not the union. Teachers at my school negotiated for themselves, by themselves with the school board.

In any case... I liked the Minister of Education on the news today calling the demands "ridiculous" which they are. 2 Billion in demands... lolz

Teachers are so entitled. Wanted a higher paying job? Should have done something else.

[Frenchie]

Just because teachers are making "2 billion" in demands doesn't mean at all that they'll get it. That's why it's called bargaining. You don't go into bargaining wanting the minimal acceptable number, you go in shooting high because you know the opposition will be shooting for something low, and hopefully, you'll settle somewhere in the middle.

If you think 2 billion in demands is ridiculous, so is the employer and the provincial government having a net zero mandate. If they're not bringing anything to the table and not willing to budge, why should teachers budge from their 2 billion mark?

[MG1]

Teachers are so entitled. Wanted a higher paying job? Should have done something else.

Would you be saying this if your SO, or your parents, or siblings, or yourself were a teacher?

This is what bothers me about some of the comments in this thread. It's so easy to throw stones at others.

[7seven]

Out of the ten provinces, where do BC teachers stand as far as wages go?

This in a province where cost of living is high.

The teachers, who have yet to table their new wage demands, say they want a raise because their pay has fallen to eighth-place from third in Canada. Teachers also want more say in the size and composition of classrooms.

The employer disputes the eighth-place ranking, saying B.C. teacher wages have dropped to fourth in Canada from third during the last contract or seventh in the country from sixth depending on which provincial scales are used


CTV British Columbia - Teachers' strike notice chills back-to-school mood - CTV News (http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20110905/bc_teachers_strike_110905/20110905/?hub=BritishColumbiaHome)

The Province I believe is basing their comparison on average wages, the teacher's union is basing the bottom 8 comparison on the entry level and maximum wages, which IMO is really not fair and a ploy to gather public sympathy. The top 5 maximum wages are $95,000 - $110,000 and all for places in Yukon, Alberta, NWT, Nunavut. Just like wages for doctors, police officers, etc... are higher in places like that because you have to set the wage higher to attract people to work in those places.

My personal opinion, $95,000 > max annual salary is ridiculous for a public school teacher for Vancouver, there is no need, especially with the amount of unemployed or part time teachers out there looking for positions in Vancouver. They're not happy with the maximum potential wage they can make, well, become a University professor or school administrator. I have a close friend who is a public high school teacher and I've told him, not happy with your maximum potential wage then make a career change, he agrees.

Other issues like class sizes the Province I think needs to give some help with, but that would require hiring more teachers and building more permanent facilities, which would require $$$, taking away $$$ which could be added to the maximum wage scales, there is only so much to go around. My friend who is a teacher has said that a lot of teachers he knows, especially the senior ones, wouldn't go for that as they just really care about their max wages. There are a lot of good teachers out there concerned with the well fare and education of the children, but seems to me the problem is the few, more vocal ones being the issue with max wages.

[dbaz]

"These are the people who teach you, make you what you are in the future. They should make more based on that alone its that simple. Not everyone can be a teacher, not everyone has the ability to help those exceed. But those who can deserve to make more then they currently do."

I have to say that ^^ is the worst logic ever, and certainly naive (no offense intended). You say not everyone can be a teacher and help students succeed, so HOW do you prevent those who cannot from being a teacher and freeloading off your system that is set up to reward those who can teach and deserve the money and benefits?


Like I said the union has to come to an agreement to evaluate their teachers. Some teachers do their job without any care, which is ridiculous. The amount will only get worse with them being considered an essential care and having limited funding to teach a proper class. The problem is that both the union and the government are so full of themselves they cant negotiate anything. It may seem stupid but, just because its stupid doesn't mean its not true. Until something like this happens the public education system will only get worse.

[Gridlock]

I can side with them on a lot of issues. Money maybe not so much: 48-50k starting with 2 months off? Not a horrible deal.

My main issue with the education system is special ed kids in general population.

I know its a tough choice to make, do you segregate and basically write off the kid, or integrate and write off everyone else?

I support them on the issue of having a class of like-abled children so you don't need to devote 80% of your time to the bottom 20%.

[Jermyzy]

Would you be saying this if your SO, or your parents, or siblings, or yourself were a teacher?

This is what bothers me about some of the comments in this thread. It's so easy to throw stones at others.

My brother is a teacher. Sure he makes less money than me right now. But when he retires, he's set for life with an indexed pension.

[Z3guy]

^ you are bang on....sure you make less as a teacher, but you also have 2 months off to supplement your income.

What most people dont take into acct is an indexed pension....how many public or private companies offer this now?.....less than 2% I bet. How would you like a job, where you could in theory spend everything you make because when you retire, you have a indexed pension to live off of. Also, when you die, the pension can be transferred to your spouse...not 100% sure on that though.....

[Graeme S]

Just a heads up, this thread had been derailed by pro- and anti-union arguments. That part is good, but let's keep this on topic for the teachers, yes? The union debate has now been moved to a new thread:
http://www.revscene.net/forums/653152-union-debate-thread-split-bc-teachers-thread.html

[Graeme S]

B.C. teachers union quits settlement talks over 10-year-old legislation - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/bc-politics/bc-teachers-union-quits-settlement-talks-over-10-year-old-legislation/article2165176/)


Coles notes:
Teachers are walking away from the negotiations because they're deadlocked on the issue of the laws for class sizes
-Teachers say that the laws struck down by the BC Courts mean that all the money saved should go back into the system for hiring and increases (that's the 2.1bn people are talking about)
-Province says that what's happened has happened and that the net-zero policy applies

To this point, wage negotiations have not been tabled.



My take on this? It seems like teachers aren't looking for raises (okay, I admit, the key word may be 'yet') and are just looking to settle the issue of class sizes and composition. If the two sides can't agree on what that means, it might go to the Supreme Court of Canada in order to decide whether the entire laws (bill 27/28) will be struck down and funding returned, or if only parts will be.

This is gonna take a looooooooooooooooong time.


PS: No more pro- and anti- union rhetoric, please. Let's keep this teachers/government, yes?

[taylor192]

PS: No more pro- and anti- union rhetoric, please. Let's keep this teachers/government, yes?

It's impossible to split the 2. I'd love to have really small class sizes, yet that depends on salaries, and that depends on the union, and that depends on the contract, and that depends on government funding, and that depends on taxes, and that depends on the economy.

The government has told them there is no more money, and rightfully so since BCers just told the government "no more taxes". So if the teachers want smaller class sizes then something else besides increasing funding has to be tackled, ie:
Closing schools with low enrollment
Cutting funding for programs/supplies
...

We can discuss the implications of Bill 27 and 28: The BC Supreme Court did not strike down Bill 27 and 28, it just proposed the 2 parties meet and come up with a remedy, and did not propose any monetary value to remedy. Thus IMHO much of Bill 27 and 28 were deemed lawful with only a few issues need to be ironed out otherwise the Supreme Court would have struck them down which puts the government in a far better position to negotiate.

If we look at what happened with Bill 29, even though the Canada Supreme Court struck down parts of the law, it did not mean things changed. The court ordered BC compensate those contracted out, yet did not require them to cancel the contracts and rehire them.

Thus the BCTF may win compensation, yet it doesn't mean their contract will be restored. That compensation has to come from somewhere, which will further drive the "net zero" policy of the government.

[BaBiE_Bee]

Kinda off-topic; but thought it was interesting that the teachers down in Washington State are striking too... (was channel surfing last night and stumbled on this)

TACOMA, Wash. — Students in Washington state’s third-largest school district are taking a fourth straight day off Friday as opposing sides in a teachers strike meet with a judge, after the instructors defied his order to return to the classroom.

The Tacoma School District teachers walked out Tuesday over issues including pay, class size and how job transfers are handled.

Read more at: Wash. teachers vote overwhelmingly to remain on strike despite judge’s order to return to work - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/wash-teachers-vote-overwhelmingly-to-remain-on-strike-despite-judges-order-to-return-to-work/2011/09/16/gIQA5YIcWK_story.html)