[Culverin]

We've finally gotten some decent main stream coverage.

In a nut shell, people are gathering on Wall Street in peaceful protest and have been roughed up by the cops. We're a couple days into this already.


MSNBC on NYPD Police Brutality during Occupy Wall St. Lawrence O'donnell with "The Last Word" - YouTube


A lot of the police brutality in the states is finally come to light because of technology and how everybody is now packing a video camera on their phone.
Various Police Departments had a real issue with this and tried to shut it down aligning it with wire-tapping laws. However, it is now treated in American Law that everybody can be considered media due to tech like youtube and blogging and has a right to tape.


Has Canada figured out it's stance on it yet?

[StylinRed]

that's what happens when you give the police, security, customs officers etc free reign after 9/11

[$_$]

Such truth.

[will068]

that's what happens when you give the police, security, customs officers etc free reign after 9/11

The PD probably has direct instructions from City Hall to have free reign on the protesters @ Wall Street. Money talks. Period.

It doesn't help that Bloomberg is the Mayor.

[Death2Theft]

The wall street crooks are sipping champange watching people out there protesting

[Redlines_Daily]

The PD probably has direct instructions from City Hall to have free reign on the protesters @ Wall Street. Money talks. Period.

It doesn't help that Bloomberg is the Mayor.

But this is not an isolated incident, this happens every day in every city. Robert Dziekanski at YVR for example. I respect the difficult job the police officers have, many are great cops but some of them routinely abuse their authority and give the rest of the force a bad name. These kind of cops need to be fired immediately and banned from applying at any PD in the country.

[tool001]

american politics = :fuckthatshit:

because vaste majority of people = :fulloffuck:

think its time for North Americans to hold government accountable & stop filling pockets of bankers, good for them, and good that they caught this and is on a branded channel

[gdoh]

its more than a couple of days into the protest it actually started on Sept 17 and its #opwallstreet https://www.facebook.com/pages/TheAnonPress/194464753933126

its spreading to LA, Chicago, Montreal

[murd0c]

Plain and simple we no longer have freedom of speech. We are only allowed to say what the MAN wants us to say and see.

[StylinRed]

and people here don't riot/ mass protest


they think its retarded and so nothing happens they continue to lose freedoms

look @ the 'old world' mass protests/riots happen all the time and over things that may even seem ridiculous to us

[unit]

drives me insane that the police do their own internal investigations.

[The_AK]

you guys know the umbrellas are a fire hazard?

:troll: police

[StaxBundlez]

that...fucking sucked..

[GabAlmighty]

Couldn't even watch the whole thing, just got too pissed off. Can't wait for shit to hit the fan.

[PiuYi]

that lawrence o'donnell guy pisses me off, what the fuck man just present the facts, don't try to sell the story so hard

feels like he's trying to sell police brutality to you when really he could have just presented the facts, unbiased



ex. "everyone of those police officers in the video have gotten away with breaking the law off camera"

really?? based on what? don't add your own little spiel to the story

[gdoh]

globalrevolution - live streaming video powered by Livestream (http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution)

they have had people like immortal technique, michael moore, susan surandon and others showing their support

edit: i think they were beating these people because the protestors were getting no media attention at all i think this msnbc was the first real source of media attention

[mr_chin]

This is why i love canada, we're problem free.

[RTS]

So basically a bunch of idiots are trying to shut down markets without which modern society could not function.

These anarchists should be rounded up and deported to Somalia. If they want to live without a functioning government they should love it there.

[GLOW]

Plain and simple we no longer have freedom of speech. We are only allowed to say what the MAN wants us to say and see.

wait we talking about the US or china?
:troll:

on a serious note, for some reason the phrase "let them eat cake" comes to mind when i see this happening on wallstreet

[mr_chin]

So basically a bunch of idiots are trying to shut down markets without which modern society could not function.

These anarchists should be rounded up and deported to Somalia. If they want to live without a functioning government they should love it there.

It's more to it than that.

I don't think they want to shut down the market. They want something to govern the policies of financial institutions, loaners, etc.

As we get closer to the predicted date of 2012, it seems the world is crashing. Yes people will laugh at the 2012 thing, but I believe there will be something happening, be it nature or economic crisis, or both.

Just imagine, we have one whole year to go through, and things like these will progress. When people have no food to feed themselves and their children, they will fight for it.

[iEatClams]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/01/business/wall-street-protests/index.html

i think its finally growing some steam - apparently the crowds are getting bigger and bigger

I love this comment tho:

When young Arabs protest their oppressive power structures, they are hailed by Western governments as a prodemocracy Arab Spring. When British and American youth protest their oppressive power structures, Western governments declare them hooligans and trouble makers.

[shawnly1000]

Ya it's definitely gained some steam, they're now getting support from the transit union

Occupy Wall Street gets union support - UPI.com (http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011/09/30/Occupy-Wall-Street-gets-union-support/UPI-89641317369600/?spt=hts&or=2)

[SFUguy]

Plain and simple we no longer have freedom of speech. We are only allowed to say what the MAN wants us to say and see.

we? canada is not america.

[Culverin]

Well this explains a lot.

http://i.imgur.com/D9VI0.png



And no, it's not a photoshopped photo.
Proof:
Scene Last Night: Ron Perelman, Ray Kelly, Jon Bon Jovi, NYPD - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-03/scene-last-night-perelman-bon-jovi-at-new-city-police-foundation-s-gala.html)
New York City Police Foundation (http://cityarts.info/2011/06/14/new-york%E2%80%99s-finest/)

[Death2Theft]

With every bailout more freedoms are being lost. The need for a bailout shows that freedom doesn't work and people can't manage themselves. Therefore big brother needs to tell everyone what to do.

[Drow]

standing infront of buildings solves things

[Meowjin]

culverin please change your name to Reddit.

[Gtrr33]

NSFW
We cant afford a shirt - Occupy Wall St Protest - Day 5 CNN NEWS - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=http%3A//www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DiD85023px-E)

[Death2Theft]

Lets see how long they can afford to stay out there with the winter coming. I love tits as much as the next guy... but these chicks are dumb! They are giving them a reason to arrest them... and do god knows what to them away from cameras.
NSFW
We cant afford a shirt - Occupy Wall St Protest - Day 5 CNN NEWS - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=http%3A//www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DiD85023px-E)

[cressydrift]

NSFW
We cant afford a shirt - Occupy Wall St Protest - Day 5 CNN NEWS - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=http%3A//www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DiD85023px-E)

:heckno:

[Culverin]

culverin please change your name to Reddit.

I don't even have an account there, just a lurker.
http://cdn.revscene.ca/forums/images/smilies/fuckthatshit.png


Also, You keep pointing it out.
Does it really bother you that much? :p

[SiRV]

NSFW follow up to Topless wallstreet occupation

REMOVED* ! Sorry guys not allowed NWS stuff in this sub forum at ALL

[Tegra_Devil]

NSFW follow up to Topless wallstreet occupation






:heckno::heckno::heckno::heckno:

[Redlines_Daily]

NSFW follow up to Topless wallstreet occupation





would you mind changing your mod status so I can fail you for those pancake titties? :D

[iEatClams]

In Vancouver, organizers say they plan to occupy an area outside the Vancouver Art Gallery. Those attending have been asked to bring tents with them and the group’s Facebook page says protesters will stay “as long as it takes.”

The Occupy Together website suggests similar events are being planned in Mexico, Australia, Tokyo, about a dozen European countries and more than 40 U.S. states.


source
Canadian version of Wall Street occupation planned - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/canadian-version-of-wall-street-occupation-planned/article2187950/)


Hmmm, dont think it will resort to anything big in Vancouver due to the rain, but can see a decent turnout in Toronto.

This is how those Arab Springs start, it all starts small, and gets bigger. But I can see this being a huge thing in Spain (40% unemployment among youths) and other places that already have riots going on.

[BrRsn]

NSFW
We cant afford a shirt - Occupy Wall St Protest - Day 5 CNN NEWS - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=http%3A//www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DiD85023px-E)

Goddamnit I say like 8 nipples but not a looker in the bunch. :heckno:

[Everymans]

What exactly is their goal? Do they have a solution for the crisis or are they just pissed off about upper middle class folks? This is what I hate about people who bitch about the system, they don't have a decent solution to make everyone happy and equal. There will always be flaws in our systems and the way the government runs. But we have yet as a civilization gotten to the point of perfection. And to be honest, we are getting a bit too uptight and needy about what we need in our life. 100 years ago people worked 14 hour days and got minimal pay and were treated like shit. Now you can buy a house in Saskatchewan off the money you can make working a year in an oil patch.

[bing]

^wow you really are clueless. I haven't had the time to read about this protest, but im sure the issue is more than just "high executive" pay issues. It's probably about wall street greed. If you've opened a paper in the last year, you would know about what caused the crisis (sub-prime mortgages?) and the number of scandals that keep occurring such as securities fraud.

[iEatClams]

^^ try watching the documentary inside job.

other issues are executives get huge bonuses when their banks/companies go bankrupt, or for laying off people. furthermore they get bailed out by taxpayers dollars when they mess up. Yet the average person seems to be getting poorer and poorer.

Not to mention that these companies have lobbyists that make laws that favor them and most companies have record profits, yet only the rich seem to be benefiting from these record profits.

unemployment in the US is high. Spain has 20% unemployment. US has over 9%. Most of the decent paying jobs are gone and only the low crappy ones remain, with zero benefits.

It's only about time that these riots start. It's not that bad in Canada since we have better policies than most of our western counterparts.

[iEatClams]

What exactly is their goal? Do they have a solution for the crisis or are they just pissed off about upper middle class folks? This is what I hate about people who bitch about the system, they don't have a decent solution to make everyone happy and equal. There will always be flaws in our systems and the way the government runs. But we have yet as a civilization gotten to the point of perfection. And to be honest, we are getting a bit too uptight and needy about what we need in our life. 100 years ago people worked 14 hour days and got minimal pay and were treated like shit. Now you can buy a house in Saskatchewan off the money you can make working a year in an oil patch.

I agree that as a society we tend to be too materialistic, and studies have shown that once you make $60,000, making more money doesnt make you that much happy.
But there are too many people that are born into poor neighbourhoods, poverty, and unemployment, and the system doesnt protect the interest of these people. They appear powerless. They have no means of escape. The system isn't helping these people out. But the rich and greedy have all the means to help themselves and are abusing their powers and responsibility.

[bing]

^^ try watching the documentary inside job.

other issues are executives get huge bonuses when their banks/companies go bankrupt, or for laying off people. furthermore they get bailed out by taxpayers dollars when they mess up. Yet the average person seems to be getting poorer and poorer.

Not to mention that these companies have lobbyists that make laws that favor them and most companies have record profits, yet only the rich seem to be benefiting from these record profits.

unemployment in the US is high. Spain has 20% unemployment. US has over 9%. Most of the decent paying jobs are gone and only the low crappy ones remain, with zero benefits.

It's only about time that these riots start. It's not that bad in Canada since we have better policies than most of our western counterparts.

to the film recommendation :thumbsup:
I'm actually well aware of most of these issues as one of my double majors is in sociology.

[bing]

I agree that as a society we tend to be too materialistic, and studies have shown that once you make $60,000, making more money doesnt make you that much happy.
But there are too many people that are born into poor neighbourhoods, poverty, and unemployment, and the system doesnt protect the interest of these people. They appear powerless. They have no means of escape. The system isn't helping these people out. But the rich and greedy have all the means to help themselves and are abusing their powers and responsibility.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9X0hisvncQ

[MindBomber]

standing infront of buildings solves things

The wall street protests are the North American arab spring, regardless of how simple a group occupying a street may seem in large numbers and with enough time it becomes a powerful message. Politicians will not help, they will not regulate themselves and a continual underlying resentment will go ignored. These protests are our opportunity to make a difference and force some measure of change.

[Nightwalker]

http://youtu.be/MHNDwZM_AS4

I hope this helps some positive action, but it's pretty unlikely. The government is insane.

The beating that everyone but the rich are taking is building up though, I'd expect to see more of this kind of thing.

This might just be the beginning.

[Mananetwork]

What exactly is their goal? Do they have a solution for the crisis or are they just pissed off about upper middle class folks? This is what I hate about people who bitch about the system, they don't have a decent solution to make everyone happy and equal. There will always be flaws in our systems and the way the government runs. But we have yet as a civilization gotten to the point of perfection. And to be honest, we are getting a bit too uptight and needy about what we need in our life. 100 years ago people worked 14 hour days and got minimal pay and were treated like shit. Now you can buy a house in Saskatchewan off the money you can make working a year in an oil patch.

Have you thought about why so many have showed up to protest?! Maybe because there's a problem and something needs to be fixed!
They might not have a PHD in running a country but all you need is a high school education to see it's not being run very well!


This has been my favourite video for the past few days, it tells the truth!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFg0DzT9tNI&feature=mh_lolz&list=LLo20lQwGZnFpmUyw_bgaqMg

[Death2Theft]

It makes me cry to hear michael moore scream end capitolism and have the crowd cheer in the back ground. These idiots are cheering for what? Plus those idiots holding the signs "a job is a right" OMFG. They are asking for communist china, where you get assigned a job.
Dont be fooled by warren buffets tax the rich scheme. If you took away all the top 1% wealth in america, it would amount to a paltry 2 trillion which would run the country for the duration of a long fart. The real guys making the money are off shore. Buffet wants more taxes so that they can pay for more bailouts.... which in turn goes to the banks he owns huge shares! Hellooo!

[Manic!]

Looks like Anon is getting involved and wants to shut down the NYSE on Oct 10th.

[gdoh]

anon was always involved

[tool001]

... get the money out of government...get rid of the lobbyist and ull see the government working for the people - plain and simple

edit... markets need more regulation..take out govt intervention and ull have 2008 all over again..

[Culverin]

I'd like to hear how you can get the money out of government.

The gov is the one making multi-billion dollar policies.

They are the ones that handle multi-billion dollar departments (transportation, defense, labor, education, energy, justice, agriculture, homeland security). There is so much money there.


You can't really get rid of lobbyists that simply, they have a place to educate or at least tell their side of the story. The problem is that they have the ability to wine and dine and give gifts and incentives, maybe they don't come right away, but sometimes, the ex-congressmen are given executive positions after. Stuff like that is much too grey to be regulated.

[mr_chin]

this is what is happening...

the country continues to borrow money and not making money. so they print more to pay back those loan.

what people are protesting about...

country continues to print money not to help the country but to stay in the market.

people cotinue to pay taxes, and where are those money going to? not the roads, not the buildings, not the education, not the employment, it's the help pay off the countries debt. there is so much american dollar circling right now, but nothing is in the american life is improving.

[Death2Theft]

Not the country but the Fed
this is what is happening...


the country continues to borrow money and not making money. so they print more to pay back those loan.

what people are protesting about...

country continues to print money not to help the country but to stay in the market.

people cotinue to pay taxes, and where are those money going to? not the roads, not the buildings, not the education, not the employment, it's the help pay off the countries debt. there is so much american dollar circling right now, but nothing is in the american life is improving.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[Death2Theft]

When the gov fears the people its when democracy works.when the people fear the gov is when democracy has failed.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[rsx]

Protests aren't going to do shit, I'm surprised no one has organized a para military group to start assassinating some of these inept ceo's and exec's.

[MindBomber]

Protests aren't going to do shit, I'm surprised no one has organized a para military group to start assassinating some of these inept ceo's and exec's.

Your right man, the protests in the middle east that began last winter achieved nothing. I'll tell you what, buy a gun and shoot a CEO and I'll give you my support.

[Everymans]

Have you thought about why so many have showed up to protest?! Maybe because there's a problem and something needs to be fixed!
They might not have a PHD in running a country but all you need is a high school education to see it's not being run very well!


This has been my favourite video for the past few days, it tells the truth!

Awesome rant to the US gov't - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFg0DzT9tNI&feature=mh_lolz&list=LLo20lQwGZnFpmUyw_bgaqMg)

My comment was just one side of my opinion. i have complaints against the system that governs us as well and sometimes the only way to show the real displeasure of our government is by protesting. I just think the goals are too scattered. What is the point of this protest? What are they trying to change? I read an article about the groups motives and their displeasure and they're all over the place. normally if there's a mass protest and they wish to make it work they have to have a solution and a set goal in mind. They don't have a solution and they have 30 set goals. Like a president once said, My fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. What do they want? for the government to change things? They should find someone who knows whats wrong and what can be done to change the country.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZmPWcLQ1Mk

I never really got into the videos because I'm really getting sick of hearing about banking catastrophes and the dropping stocks etc. My favourite qoute "They'll give the bank a bail out if they make a mistake but they won't give me a bail out if I make a mistake.

[TheKingdom2000]

Protests aren't going to do shit, I'm surprised no one has organized a para military group to start assassinating some of these inept ceo's and exec's.

they go no monies to do such a thing...

[TheKingdom2000]

Awesome rant to the US gov't - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFg0DzT9tNI&feature=mh_lolz&list=LLo20lQwGZnFpmUyw_bgaqMg)

haha, my favourite is...
[Yo obama, all us black people were proud. Black president and all, but now you acting like one, pay your got damn bills]

[goo3]

You can't really get rid of lobbyists that simply, they have a place to educate or at least tell their side of the story. The problem is that they have the ability to wine and dine and give gifts and incentives, maybe they don't come right away, but sometimes, the ex-congressmen are given executive positions after. Stuff like that is much too grey to be regulated.

What about limiting the size of donations?

Protests aren't going to do shit, I'm surprised no one has organized a para military group to start assassinating some of these inept ceo's and exec's.

Those guys are just players in the game; you'll inevitable get bad apples no matter what. You can say the same thing about building construction or water safety or airplane maintenance, etc. That's why we have referees or at least we're supposed to.

[mr_chin]

Protests aren't going to do shit, I'm surprised no one has organized a para military group to start assassinating some of these inept ceo's and exec's.

They're not protesting to change something, well not entirely. These people have two choices, they can continue their normal life and pay taxes that goes to nothing, or they can refuse to work and stand up for what they believe.

The protest in the middle east did have an affect, it did brought down a 30 year government. But did it change anything? Not right now, but maybe eventually and gradually, it will.

If the protest in the states gets big enough, then they'll have the majority of the people not going to work and such. Is it going to bring down the market? No. But i'm pretty sure this will have an affect on america in so and so years.

[dinosaur]

FOX News interviews spends time interview random people during the occupation, only showing those who maybe don't articulate themselves as well as the could to prove the point that the protest has no direction or point.

Conveniently overlooks this dudes response....

Here's The Brilliant Occupy Wall Street Interview Fox News Didn't Show Us! | PerezHilton.com (http://perezhilton.com/2011-10-05-occupy-wall-street-interview-fox-news-wont-air-new-york-observe-found#.Toxzj_72b1Q)

One of the best interviews I have seen from the occupiers.

[iEatClams]

FOX News interviews spends time interview random people during the occupation, only showing those who maybe don't articulate themselves as well as the could to prove the point that the protest has no direction or point.

Conveniently overlooks this dudes response....

Here's The Brilliant Occupy Wall Street Interview Fox News Didn't Show Us! | PerezHilton.com (http://perezhilton.com/2011-10-05-occupy-wall-street-interview-fox-news-wont-air-new-york-observe-found#.Toxzj_72b1Q)

One of the best interviews I have seen from the occupiers.

fck did not see that coming. That guy just owned that newscaster.

[RTS]

This generation is full of whiny little bitches.

How many cycles has the global economy gone through before and recovered from? yet I don't remember our grandparents saying "in the 30's we took over wall street during the great depression"; or my uncles during the 70's or my dad in 87' or my cousins in 97/98 or anyone during the dotcom bust.

STFU, strap up and get a job. If you can't find a job, make a job or go get some more schooling. People that feel entitled to anything outside of basic social needs and rights should get drafted into the army or deported to Africa.

[RRxtar]

I definitely support the protest on the level that there is an enormous problem with the way our current societies are being run, the inability for the government to actually do anything to fix any problems, and how the "1%" are fucking the rest of us. Changes need to be made in the way the governments are run. Without getting into any finger pointing, because neither I, nor the majority of the public truly know what goes on behind the scenes.

I am against how so many kids (college kids) are using this as a platform to spew winey excuses. There are hundreds of interviews with college kids saying they cant afford their $50k/year tuition for their 8th year in some bullshit arts program and its not fair. Those people need to get with reality. When times are tough, you need to adapt, and sometimes that means doing something you don't want to do, or make changes you're afraid to. Put on some work boots and go get to work. No work around you? Put on some combat boots and join the Military, they are always hiring, and may infact lead to a better future.

[Meowjin]

This generation is full of whiny little bitches.

How many cycles has the global economy gone through before and recovered from? yet I don't remember our grandparents saying "in the 30's we took over wall street during the great depression"; or my uncles during the 70's or my dad in 87' or my cousins in 97/98 or anyone during the dotcom bust.

STFU, strap up and get a job. If you can't find a job, make a job or go get some more schooling. People that feel entitled to anything outside of basic social needs and rights should get drafted into the army or deported to Africa.

since you are "educated" sociology 101 teaches what is internal and what is external.

A 13% unemployment rate sure as hell isn't internal you tool. So suck a bag of dicks.

[Gridlock]

Ultimately, these people are proof that the "cut taxes for rich and let it trickle" doesn't work. That's why you have the 1% controlling more and more.

[Hondaracer]

Maybe those 13% should have thought long-term and got into a versatile field or had broad job training

I have no sympathy for people with arts degree's complaining about no jobs when their arms are too
Small to pick up a shovel.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[Meowjin]

wow.

vancouver has made you blind.

[Death2Theft]

I predict they will start a war somewhere between now and election time to draw media focus away from said election/issues.

[Culverin]

Intriguing idea...

http://i.imgur.com/wtjET.jpg

[bloodmack]

This generation is full of whiny little bitches.

How many cycles has the global economy gone through before and recovered from? yet I don't remember our grandparents saying "in the 30's we took over wall street during the great depression"; or my uncles during the 70's or my dad in 87' or my cousins in 97/98 or anyone during the dotcom bust.

STFU, strap up and get a job. If you can't find a job, make a job or go get some more schooling. People that feel entitled to anything outside of basic social needs and rights should get drafted into the army or deported to Africa.

Tool of the year award, congratulations you are a perfect governed citizen. Its not just about the jobs.


Also, freedomisjokelol.

[mr_chin]

This generation is full of whiny little bitches.

How many cycles has the global economy gone through before and recovered from? yet I don't remember our grandparents saying "in the 30's we took over wall street during the great depression"; or my uncles during the 70's or my dad in 87' or my cousins in 97/98 or anyone during the dotcom bust.

STFU, strap up and get a job. If you can't find a job, make a job or go get some more schooling. People that feel entitled to anything outside of basic social needs and rights should get drafted into the army or deported to Africa.

Lol. You're speaking from a point where you're not experiencing what these people are going through. And just because the economy has recovered doesn't mean that people should not strive for a change. And in our grandparents day, they didn't print out 600 billion dollars.

Maybe those 13% should have thought long-term and got into a versatile field or had broad job training

I have no sympathy for people with arts degree's complaining about no jobs when their arms are too
Small to pick up a shovel.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

Maybe some people weren't as fortunate as other who had financial support when they're in their teens to get job training or go to school.

People are sick and tired of being paid on a $9/hr job and still have to struggle with their bills when the feds are printing out money like blank papers and paying off their own debt.

[Nightwalker]

The government has all the power and a full monopoly on the use of force. It's a corporations purpose to create profits, they've just done what they're meant to do. On the other hand, the government has been a complete failure.

[dinosaur]

Oh fuck.....FOX news, you are awesome.

And, Ann Coulter you are such a cunt.

Horrendous! Ann Coulter Compares Occupy Wall Street Protestors To Nazis | PerezHilton.com (http://perezhilton.com/2011-10-07-ann-coulter-compares-occupy-wall-street-protestors-to-nazis-during-fox-business-interview)

I totally dig that when you have a protest, etc. you have a whole sub-population of people that join solely to be "that guy" with the dreadlocks, knit beenie, dirty finger nails, and Phish t-shirt who last week was at the abortion/weed/homelessness/free hug sit-in/protest. The people that right wing ass-hat media outlets LOVE to interview to make everyone look like a fucking moron.

The thing that pisses me off is that fact that a lot of these people have a well-educated point to what they are doing. DO you see that on the news? Not so much...

And Ann Coulter? Well that bitch is just an angry cunt and probably cuts herself at night. I'm excited for the day that she is caught in some form of scandal....I'm thinking some lesbian strip club with a black guy type scenario....

that is all.

[Death2Theft]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-hmZfCi4GTfI/To9WQKtrYwI/AAAAAAAAA6k/HVmjjFIkMe8/s576/hooker.jpg
We Are the 99 Percent (http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/page/7)

[Hondaracer]

BTW, today on global news they said the lower mainlands unemployment rate is only 3.5%

and maybe if that chick above had taken a degree where it would have been worthwhile to take out loans etc. to get through school she wouldn't be in that predicament, bitching about having to drop out of an arts degree..

while travelling i met a girl from Virginia who was on her way to law school, she was in her 4th overall year of studies out of 6-7 potential years she would be doing, at this point in her 4th year she was $65,000 into her student loans, HOWEVER, speaking with financial planners and government staff she learned that if she was to take her law school training into the public sector, virtually all of her student loan would be void as a public servant, her good planning and long-term outlook will most likely land her a good paying career with smart choices and planning.. not something the majority of people in school seem to choose to do..

I love seeing this stupid stories on the news lately about people with "families" moving back east because of housing prices, cost of living, etc. the first thing that comes to my mind is, Maybe you should have tried a little harder?

or.. maybe you couldnt afford to have a child at this point in your life?..

are normal hard-working people suppose to have sympathy for these stories of mass-exodus from the west coast due to cost of living between a family of 2 barista's trying to raise a child?

EDIT* Also like Penner2k has pointed out in a thread right here in VanOT, if your bitching about cost of living or cant get a job that gets you anywhere, go work in Alberta in the oil industry, saving up 80k over a couple years of work is more than enough to put down for a home, or even an investment property to further your finances, but of course, and especially here on RS, people rather complain then get their hands dirty.

[Death2Theft]

She is but one example if you look at the rest of the 99% people there are lots with real degrees, infact I've only seen one person on that site with an arts degree complaining about being unemployed.
BTW, today on global news they said the lower mainlands unemployment rate is only 3.5%

and maybe if that chick above had taken a degree where it would have been worthwhile to take out loans etc. to get through school she wouldn't be in that predicament, bitching about having to drop out of an arts degree..

while travelling i met a girl from Virginia who was on her way to law school, she was in her 4th overall year of studies out of 6-7 potential years she would be doing, at this point in her 4th year she was $65,000 into her student loans, HOWEVER, speaking with financial planners and government staff she learned that if she was to take her law school training into the public sector, virtually all of her student loan would be void as a public servant, her good planning and long-term outlook will most likely land her a good paying career with smart choices and planning.. not something the majority of people in school seem to choose to do..

I love seeing this stupid stories on the news lately about people with "families" moving back east because of housing prices, cost of living, etc. the first thing that comes to my mind is, Maybe you should have tried a little harder?

or.. maybe you couldnt afford to have a child at this point in your life?..

are normal hard-working people suppose to have sympathy for these stories of mass-exodus from the west coast due to cost of living between a family of 2 barista's trying to raise a child?

EDIT* Also like Penner2k has pointed out in a thread right here in VanOT, if your bitching about cost of living or cant get a job that gets you anywhere, go work in Alberta in the oil industry, saving up 80k over a couple years of work is more than enough to put down for a home, or even an investment property to further your finances, but of course, and especially here on RS, people rather complain then get their hands dirty.

[iEatClams]

For anyone that didnt grow up in a poor family. It is extremely hard to do what many of you more fortunate individuals want the poor to do.

Lets see, you want the poor, to go rack up large student loans and get "non-Arts" degrees, to compete in the job market where if you are lucky to land a job, you will get paid peanuts, so corporations can make record profits and again, benefit the 1%???

In the US, there are many students with computer science and business degrees or other "non-Artss" degrees with mounting student debt, that graduate to find very few jobs in the field that they study, and they end taking construction jobs or "barista jobs". Now you are working a job with shiet pay and you have huge debt. You're doing this why others are calling you LAZY. Can you see why these people are frustrated???

Hell, even here in Vancouver, many students are going through recruitment and cant find jobs in their fields.

Not to mention the social issues like, how the poor dont have educated parents to teach them skills that the rich teach their kids, in addition to the hookups that their parents can offer them. Its much more difficult for poor kids to compete against the more fortunate kids that have parents that are VPs or Partners or Directors at some of these corporations. Again, there are some that do make it into the decent paying jobs, but it is a much more difficult path.

I'm just using the student example since majority of RS is younger.
I know many people that worked in the corporate finance industry who got laid off in 2008, and cant find similar jobs here in Vancouver, they have kids that go to school here and thus makes moving difficult. Hence finding another lower paying job.

Back to being poor, when you are poor, you dont have the support groups that can help you get out of this shietty social class. Many corporations, wealthy individuals and lobbyists wish to Reduce taxes (to increase their profits!) and reduce social spending. Spending on education, school programs and social programs that supports you and help you to become a productive member of society.

Also when you are poor, you dont hang out with guys golfing at the country club, you are susceptible to gangs and such. You join gangs, commit crimes, and go to jail. Where lobbyists want you to have a longer sentence for petty crime, even though it costs taxpayers $$millions to house these inviduals in the prison, and who are they paying??? Corporations. Corporations profit from people going to jail. But no, they don't want to spend more on social programs that keep kids from trouble after school or other prevention programs.

When you are poor, frustrated and unemployed, you have nothing to lose, so I can see why many people are protesting.

corporations have a right to make a profit, but not a right to fuck the average person up the ass. It boggles my mind that former Monsanto execs or Bank execs that fck up the system become the people that regulate it. The majority of political contributions come from large conglomerates.

[Hondaracer]

All poor people need is a physical, drug test, OSSA orient, and CSTS training totalling $300 or completely covered and your making $65,000 a year in alberta, excuses not included.
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[MindBomber]

^Moving to Alberta and taking a job as a mindless labourer with no future or family life shouldn't be the only option for decent paying employment.

[tonyzoomzoom]

nothing wrong w being mindless for a couple of years to make enough $$ to get your life back in order.

You have choices.

[Tapioca]

nothing wrong w being mindless for a couple of years to make enough $$ to get your life back in order.

You have choices.

Not everyone is cut out to work in a tough environment like the tar sands.

[iEatClams]

Not everyone is cut out to work in a tough environment like the tar sands.

Exactly. Some people do not have the physical capabilities to work there even if they wanted to. Those camps arent the most hospitable place for the average women either.

When almost 10% of the population is unemployed like in the US, you cant solely blame the individual.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the system is fucked when the wealthiest country on the planet allows the top 1% to own the majority of that wealth.

[Hondaracer]

21 year old girls work for suncore in fort mac...
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[Culverin]

I think people need to understand that today's market is a global market.

I think people have a right to work and make a living. Nobody should be starving. And they aren't, at least not in Canada (if you of able mind and body).

However, that right does not extend to you making a living in any city you choose. Some cities are more competitive than others or requiring a different skill set. Some cities may have a higher cost of living (Vancouver is a prime example). Some may be more labor intensive or more education higher thinking intensive.

Much like how the poor have a right to affordable accommodations, they don't really have a right to it wherever they choose. The Athletes Village or Woodwards building is a prime example of this. There are things in life you can't have simply because you are priced out.

If you can't afford to live in one of the most expensive cities in the world because you lack the skills to thrive there, then maybe you can work manual labor on a farm in the prairie provinces.

I can't stand people saying "i have a right to blah blah blah in such and such a place". Because they don't.


Also.
People with kids, that's a life choice. If a wife and husband work at mcdonalds and walmart and decide they want 2 children, they are making a poor life choice. Then don't buy a TV, then don't buy a car. Those things aren't rights.



It's all about choices.
Once again, if you are both of able mind and body, I have yet to see a lack of opportunity in the first world as long as you are willing to use a little elbow grease.
It's like people in the States not wanting to do labor jobs being taken by immigrants, but still complaining they are no jobs available.

[MindBomber]

nothing wrong w being mindless for a couple of years to make enough $$ to get your life back in order.

You have choices.

Return to what?

A low paying dead end job, because being a mindless bitch doesn't exactly develop marketable skills. I wouldn't hire someone who spent two years in the oil sands because they're greedy and were willing to do anything for a high short term income, someone who spent a few years developing skills would be a much better candidate for any position at any level.

In reality, this movement isn't about people expecting to make a high income at a entry level position, it's about the pay differential between rich and poor. Nothing should make the CEO of a company entitled to 475 times the average income of the employees of the same company, a person should simply be entitled to a liveable wage at all income levels and in any region.

[Culverin]

... a person should simply be entitled to a liveable wage at all income levels and in any region.

I disagree with this. Why do you believe they are entitled it in any region?

Some jobs just don't pay well and some cities are more expensive.
It's not even stemming from a corrupt system. It's just nature. Not all things are equal, and sometimes, somewhere, being the top of the ladder isn't so far from the bottom. But sometimes, being at the bottom really sucks.

Living in Saskatchewan definitely cheaper than if you lived in Point Grey, North Shore, London, New York or Coal Harbour.
Why should a janitor be entitled to a wage that supports him living wherever he chooses? It's a simple reality that he is priced out of some regions. It's not an issue of corruption.


It's like being a house cat. In a person's house, they have cute skills that gets them food.
As an alley cat, it would have to rummage through garbage. It's fairly suitable to this.
In the savannah, it wouldn't last 10 days. It neither has the cunning, fortitude size or skills.
It's not fair, but that cat isn't entitled to a damn thing. Don't pretend that it is.


I have nothing against your argument as a whole, i find the ever growing disparity a sure tell of a broken system, but I just thought I should nip bad logic in the bud before it spirals out of control.

[Tapioca]

21 year old girls work for suncore in fort mac...
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And how many non-white people work up there? I've spent time in the Peace (which is our oil country) and it's white as snow in terms of the people and culture. (aside from First Nations of course.)

I somewhat agree that you have to go where the jobs are. But on the other hand, when you grow up in an environment where your background, your "manhood", etc. is not judged on a daily basis, moving to a place like Fort Mac can be quite a culture shock.

[Death2Theft]

Just how many of those are not white?
21 year old girls work for suncore in fort mac...
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[RRxtar]

^ please dont be saying you cant go somewhere because there arent enough asians there

[Death2Theft]

Ok then how many east indians do you have up there?

[iEatClams]

This whole moving to oil sands talk is taking away from the main issue of why there is a low supply of decent paying middle class jobs out there. The middle class is shrinking.

The system is fucked, which is why people are protesting.

How can you justify Exxon making $3 Billion dollars in profit a quarter? Oil companies manipulate the market by lobbying and then these execs also become the regulators of such oil companies. It's like hiring my best friend to regulate me to insure I don't break any rules. Most of the major conglomerates have excess of cash and produce record profits, yet they have a NET decrease in # of employees.

[MindBomber]

I disagree with this. Why do you believe they are entitled it in any region?

Some jobs just don't pay well and some cities are more expensive.
It's not even stemming from a corrupt system. It's just nature. Not all things are equal, and sometimes, somewhere, being the top of the ladder isn't so far from the bottom. But sometimes, being at the bottom really sucks.

Living in Saskatchewan definitely cheaper than if you lived in Point Grey, North Shore, London, New York or Coal Harbour.
Why should a janitor be entitled to a wage that supports him living wherever he chooses? It's a simple reality that he is priced out of some regions. It's not an issue of corruption.

It's like being a house cat. In a person's house, they have cute skills that gets them food.
As an alley cat, it would have to rummage through garbage. It's fairly suitable to this.
In the savannah, it wouldn't last 10 days. It neither has the cunning, fortitude size or skills.
It's not fair, but that cat isn't entitled to a damn thing. Don't pretend that it is.

I have nothing against your argument as a whole, i find the ever growing disparity a sure tell of a broken system, but I just thought I should nip bad logic in the bud before it spirals out of control.

I think of region as a broader term, let me elaborate on my position.

I don't feel that a barista in Coal Harbor should be paid a wage that enables them to live in the immediate vicinity of where they work, but they should be able to earn a wage that allows them to live within an hours transit ride of their work in a less desirable neighbourhood. If members of the service industry, who our economy is fundamentally dependant on existing, simply all moved to less expensive regions then who would work as a barista serving educated professionals in the nicer neighbourhoods. Hondaracer, in his infinite ignorance, seems to think a person should move to Alberta or take whatever they can get and stop complaining.

[AAnthony]

-----

[taylor192]

How can you justify Exxon making $3 Billion dollars in profit a quarter?
As a percentage of total sales $3B is far less than other companies, for instance the beloved Apple makes far more profit in percentages.

People suck at using context, they only look at numbers, especially large numbers.

Remember: it takes people spending unwisely for companies to make absurd profits. If you don't support these companies making that kind of money, don't buy from them. I don't buy overpriced Apple products that line Apple's pockets with cash, like you can choose to take the electric bus rather than buy gas and oil products.

[bing]

Return to what?

A low paying dead end job, because being a mindless bitch doesn't exactly develop marketable skills. I wouldn't hire someone who spent two years in the oil sands because they're greedy and were willing to do anything for a high short term income, someone who spent a few years developing skills would be a much better candidate for any position at any level.

In reality, this movement isn't about people expecting to make a high income at a entry level position, it's about the pay differential between rich and poor. Nothing should make the CEO of a company entitled to 475 times the average income of the employees of the same company, a person should simply be entitled to a liveable wage at all income levels and in any region.

This comment is in reference to what you said about the movement itself, but I think lots of people make comparisons to CEO salaries, but not as often about athletes who make millions themselves. If you are OK with athletes making tons of $, what difference is it if its a CEO? They both have "talents", except one is in his ability to run a company.

CEOs make crucial decisions that can affect the profitability of companies in the millions, can the average worker do this? I wouldn't bet on it. Good CEOs are constantly head hunted by other firms (which partly explains why you need to give them incentives to stay). They also tend to have professional degrees (at the minimum an undergrad, lots have MBAs and some have an LLB as well) and work extremely long hours compared to the average worker. Essentially, work becomes life. Is the average worker willing to do this? At the end of the day, the CEO is still an employee. What about people that actually own the companies and make much much more? If a CEO made 20 million a year (some make much more in stock options, some make as little as a few hundred thousand), and there was a cap, it still does not mean the $ goes to the workers, it just sits in the company coffers or goes to investors in the form of dividends.

[Meowjin]

BTW, today on global news they said the lower mainlands unemployment rate is only 3.5%

and maybe if that chick above had taken a degree where it would have been worthwhile to take out loans etc. to get through school she wouldn't be in that predicament, bitching about having to drop out of an arts degree..

while travelling i met a girl from Virginia who was on her way to law school, she was in her 4th overall year of studies out of 6-7 potential years she would be doing, at this point in her 4th year she was $65,000 into her student loans, HOWEVER, speaking with financial planners and government staff she learned that if she was to take her law school training into the public sector, virtually all of her student loan would be void as a public servant, her good planning and long-term outlook will most likely land her a good paying career with smart choices and planning.. not something the majority of people in school seem to choose to do..

I love seeing this stupid stories on the news lately about people with "families" moving back east because of housing prices, cost of living, etc. the first thing that comes to my mind is, Maybe you should have tried a little harder?

or.. maybe you couldnt afford to have a child at this point in your life?..

are normal hard-working people suppose to have sympathy for these stories of mass-exodus from the west coast due to cost of living between a family of 2 barista's trying to raise a child?

EDIT* Also like Penner2k has pointed out in a thread right here in VanOT, if your bitching about cost of living or cant get a job that gets you anywhere, go work in Alberta in the oil industry, saving up 80k over a couple years of work is more than enough to put down for a home, or even an investment property to further your finances, but of course, and especially here on RS, people rather complain then get their hands dirty.

13 FUCKING PERCENT UNEMPLOYMENT. YOU ARE DUMB

NOT EVEN MCDONALDS IS HIRING IN THE STATES

[dinosaur]

As a percentage of total sales $3B is far less than other companies, for instance the beloved Apple makes far more profit in percentages.

People suck at using context, they only look at numbers, especially large numbers.

Remember: it takes people spending unwisely for companies to make absurd profits. If you don't support these companies making that kind of money, don't buy from them. I don't buy overpriced Apple products that line Apple's pockets with cash, like you can choose to take the electric bus rather than buy gas and oil products.

Fuck dude, talk about context....

You can't compare the profit Apple makes to Exxon. For most, paying for gas is a necessity and buying a fucking iPad is not.

Last time I check there were not ample options for "electric" buses.

[carisear]

To all the people in here ragging on going to Alberta tarsands: what's wrong with being a labourer? Or a tradesperson? How is that considered 'mindless' when inputting numbers into a spreadsheet isn't? How is the outlook for family life more bleak for them?

It's easy for me to see the people in here who think they are better than others based on their job choices.

Next thing is: Just because you have 2 masters degrees in comp sci and something else doesn't mean you are entitled to a high paying job, or even a job for that matter. If you want to make money, you find what need there is, and then fill it. If there are 100 million people with compsci degrees now, then wouldn't that be as completely useless as people with a religions degree?

You may absolutely hate your job, but you fill a niche, and make good money by doing it. If you want to exert your 'freedom', you can -- you can rack up $100k in debt learning things that are fun to you, but not necessarily useful to ANYONE else.

[RRxtar]

Sometimes life sucks. I got fired from my career of 8 years in 2009, and no one was hiring my position to a level that I felt I deserved. So I decided to start my own company. I made less money that year, at age 25, than a 14 year old kid selling fries part time after school. srs. 2010 was a little better. 2011 Im making about 4 times as much as I did at my old job. It fucking sucked getting here, took 2 years and a massive amount of debt, and this year all I do is work, but the success is fantastic. I didnt have a good job, so I made one. Now I employ people as well, so not only have I created a good job for myself, but Ive created a few good jobs for other people as well.

The difference between me and these whiners? When times get tough and their job sucks they go stand around holding signs about it. When times got tough for me, I had ambition and work ethic and prospered.

[iEatClams]

As a percentage of total sales $3B is far less than other companies, for instance the beloved Apple makes far more profit in percentages.

People suck at using context, they only look at numbers, especially large numbers.

Remember: it takes people spending unwisely for companies to make absurd profits. If you don't support these companies making that kind of money, don't buy from them. I don't buy overpriced Apple products that line Apple's pockets with cash, like you can choose to take the electric bus rather than buy gas and oil products.

the poorer you are, the less options you have. The rich have all the options. If I'm poor, I can't afford electric buses. I feel helpless, and I'm going to take it out on the people that fucked it up for me.

This doesn't address the issue that Oil Companies/Banks etc manipulate the markets so make those profits. Again, when you are producing record profits due to tax and policies that drive wages down while other people are laid off or unemployed, people will be pissed.

companies rather have workers working for minimum wage and 60 hours + a week. More profits, but less employees.

[MindBomber]

This comment is in reference to what you said about the movement itself, but I think lots of people make comparisons to CEO salaries, but not as often about athletes who make millions themselves. If you are OK with athletes making tons of $, what difference is it if its a CEO? They both have "talents", except one is in his ability to run a company.

CEOs make crucial decisions that can affect the profitability of companies in the millions, can the average worker do this? I wouldn't bet on it. Good CEOs are constantly head hunted by other firms (which partly explains why you need to give them incentives to stay). They also tend to have professional degrees (at the minimum an undergrad, lots have MBAs and some have an LLB as well) and work extremely long hours compared to the average worker. Essentially, work becomes life. Is the average worker willing to do this? At the end of the day, the CEO is still an employee. What about people that actually own the companies and make much much more? If a CEO made 20 million a year (some make much more in stock options, some make as little as a few hundred thousand), and there was a cap, it still does not mean the $ goes to the workers, it just sits in the company coffers or goes to investors in the form of dividends.

Doctors make life and death decisions daily, arguably work in an occupation that requires a higher skill set than a CEO, have a much more extensive education than anyone working in business is required, are in extremely high demand all over the world, also work long hours and are always on call; given that, one would think that a doctor should be entitled to equal or greater pay than a CEO.

Yes, a CEO has a demanding job that requires a significant set of skills, but in comparison to other highly skilled occupations they are still earning far to much.

[E-40six]

Sometimes life sucks. I got fired from my career of 8 years in 2009, and no one was hiring my position to a level that I felt I deserved. So I decided to start my own company. I made less money that year, at age 25, than a 14 year old kid selling fries part time after school. srs. 2010 was a little better. 2011 Im making about 4 times as much as I did at my old job. It fucking sucked getting here, took 2 years and a massive amount of debt, and this year all I do is work, but the success is fantastic. I didnt have a good job, so I made one. Now I employ people as well, so not only have I created a good job for myself, but Ive created a few good jobs for other people as well.

The difference between me and these whiners? When times get tough and their job sucks they go stand around holding signs about it. When times got tough for me, I had ambition and work ethic and prospered.


I did exactly the same thing you did and now I own a home in richmond with my brother after 3 years of hardwork.

for those of you who are wondering, I do a mindless labour job

[taylor192]

Fuck dude, talk about context....

You can't compare the profit Apple makes to Exxon. For most, paying for gas is a necessity and buying a fucking iPad is not.

Last time I check there were not ample options for "electric" buses.
80% of Canadians live in urban areas, so MOST have access to public transit. Driving is not a necessity, its a easy scapegoat for the uninformed and lazy.

Even for those who live where driving is a necessity, the type of vehicle they drive is a choice. Over the past decade in the US the percentage of 4cyclinder engine cars has risen from the high 20s to the mid 40s percent. People are choosing to pay the gas companies less.

In fact some of the gas companies have complained that their profit margin is down to a point they don't have the extra cash to fund more gas exploration. Why is this important? cause unless we keep looking we're going to hit peak oil sooner and prices will go up as supply dwindles. Not that I expect you to understand this, nor have looked it up before criticizing.

So back to why do we pick on Exxon with a profit margin of 7.6% when most of US manufacturing has a profit margin of 6% while companies like Apple make a profit margin of 40%?

[taylor192]

the poorer you are, the less options you have. The rich have all the options. If I'm poor, I can't afford electric buses. I feel helpless, and I'm going to take it out on the people that fucked it up for me.
FFS Buying a bus pass is cheaper than owning a car.

If you're poor you fucked up, take it out on yourself, leave me out of it.

This doesn't address the issue that Oil Companies/Banks etc manipulate the markets so make those profits. Again, when you are producing record profits due to tax and policies that drive wages down while other people are laid off or unemployed, people will be pissed.
Again, what is record profit? For the largest company in the world yes making 7.6% translates to a big fucking number, yet its still only 7.6% slightly ahead of the 6% most of US manufacturing makes while Apple makes 40% profit (and I bet you own an Apple product).

Why is Exxon profit up so much? hmmmmmm lets take a look at the price of commodities like oil, metals, food, ... all are up record levels from 3 years ago. Why are these prices up? Cause we, main street, demand that our investments return certain levels, while our economy only advances 2-3%. So wall street speculates to meet main streets demands, which drives up commodity prices and companies producing commodities make record profits while we pay more for stuff and have less cash.

Do you see how to break the cycle? main street needs more realistic expectations, and maybe wall street won't speculate.

[bing]

Doctors make life and death decisions daily, arguably work in an occupation that requires a higher skill set than a CEO, have a much more extensive education than anyone working in business is required, are in extremely high demand all over the world, also work long hours and are always on call; given that, one would think that a doctor should be entitled to equal or greater pay than a CEO.

Yes, a CEO has a demanding job that requires a significant set of skills, but in comparison to other highly skilled occupations they are still earning far to much.

I respectfully disagree. I have an uncle who is an emergency room surgeon and two that are CEOs (one heads an American multinational that I am sure most of you will recognize). This is what I think. Life and death decisions while important, is a different kind of decision than the important decisions CEOs need to make. Their not comparable. Theoretically going by that logic, if we as a society determine that the highest pay goes to those that save lives, how much should paramedics make then? Firefighters? scientists designing cancer drugs? arguably, doctors would be at the top of this hierarchy as they have specialized knowledge and ability, but where do you draw the line? You also have to remember these are paid by taxpayers as opposed to private capital. Usually, CEO salaries are inflated by stock value (like how Steve Jobs made $1 in salary). These stock options can be sold on the markets to other people who are willing to give them their money. Besides, doctors, especially specialist and surgeons can make quite a bit in the US (comparable to many CEOs who only make a couple thousand).

Studying to be a doctor has almost no risk, whereas in business its ALL about risk. Doctors can safely assume they would get a job, even banks guarantee loans if your a med student. You pretty much know how much you would make from the start, so if a doctor isn't happy with his pay, he shouldn't have got into the profession. Going into business does not guarantee you success (just like a degree doesn't automatically give you a job), nor does climbing the corporate ladder guarantee you the CEO position. There is only one such position in every company, just think of all the competition and politics involved. Not all doctors are cut out for this, just because your book smart does not make you a successful businessman. Doctors are more like technicians if you think about it, they do the same thing over and over (much like a pilot) whereas a CEO needs to be more dynamic (strategic plans look 10+ years down the road, how do you look into the future?). If you've ever met a CEO in your life, I think you'll realize in a 5minute talk why they are where they are at.


Private companies are owned by shareholders. Do they not have the right to choose who they want to be their CEOs? and how much they want to reward them? CEOs are answerable to shareholders, if they suck, you can damn well bet they will be REPLACED. Imagine if this was your company, why does an outsider get to determine how much you want to pay your top management? If people want more jobs, we need more entrepreneurs to CREATE them. We need more people to step up in society who have balls instead of the whiners who think that they deserve a job.

[iEatClams]

^ there are many people that "fucked" up, without being their fault.

I don't own an Apple product, wtf does that have to do with anything?
I have a financial background, big numbers are all relative. I understand that. Cisco has saved 40Billion dollars due to tax loopholes and increase their profits from years in the past (record), yet doesnt have a net increase in # of employees. Commodities doesnt seem to have a huge play there.

Wall street is speculating due to their own greed. Many Traders and investment bankers would sell their grandmothers to make a buck. These are quotes from VPs and Directors.

In my humble opinion, to break the cycle we need to have a more demand driven economy.

Since 1950, the lowest unemployment rate was in 1953, when it was at 2.5%, and personal tax rates back then was 91% for anyone making more than $200,000.

$200,000.00 in 1953 is $1,641,790.26 in 2011. Thus, anyone making $1.6 million would be taxed marginally at 91%. Tax rates were high back then, and it didnt stop people from making more money.

[bing]

.

[MindBomber]

I respectfully disagree. I have an uncle who is an emergency room surgeon and two that are CEOs (one heads an American multinational). This is what I think. Life and death decisions while important, is a different kind of decision than the important decisions CEOs need to make. Their not comparable. Theoretically going by that logic, if we as a society determine that the highest pay goes to those that save lives, how much should paramedics make then? Firefighters? scientists designing cancer drugs? arguably, doctors would be at the top of this hierarchy as they have specialized knowledge and ability, but where do you draw the line? You also have to remember these are paid by taxpayers as opposed to private capital. Usually, CEO salaries are inflated by stock value (like how Steve Jobs made $1 in salary). These stock options can be sold on the markets to other people who are willing to give them their money. Doctors, especially specialist and surgeons can make quite a bit in the US (comparable to many CEOs who only make a couple thousand).


I do think that research scientists should earn much more than they do; the salaries they earn do not reflect the fact that they are some of the most intelligent members of our society, make greater contributions towards progress and assume massive risk to pursue their educations even in funded programs. Discussing the appaling lack of value society places on academic contributions is an entirely different topic, however.


Studying to be a doctor has almost no risk, whereas in business its ALL about risk. Doctors can safely assume they would get a job, even banks guarantee loans if your a med student. You pretty much know how much you would make from the start, so if a doctor isn't happy with his pay, he shouldn't have got into the profession. Going into business does not guarantee you success, nor does climbing the corporate ladder guarantee you the CEO position. There is only one such position in every company, just think of all the competition and politics involved. Not all doctors are cut out for this, just because your book smart does not make you a successful businessman. If you've ever met a CEO in your life, I think you'll realize in a 5minute talk why they are where they are at.


I've both met and spent a fairly significant amount of time with multiple CEOs actually, my mom is a senior vp and a large financial institution and I have interacted with them in my own professional life. The mind set of a CEO is certainly different, and it's not something that just anyone can have adopt, but I don't think it's all that special ultimately. I also don't feel that CEOs are taking a massive risk pursuing an MBA, I've known a few people in my life with business degrees and all of them held six figure positions within the first few years of entering their careers.


Private companies are owned by shareholders. Do they not have the right to choose who they want to be their CEOs? and how much they want to reward them? Imagine you built a company, why does an outsider get to determine how much you want to pay your top management? If people want more jobs, we need more entrepreneurs to CREATE them. We need more people to step up in society who have balls instead of the whiners who think that they deserve a job.

Shareholders have the right to choose who their CEO should be and the pay rate they will be given, certainly, but the pay rates are artificially high. I don't want to go into explaining my reasoning for that on my phone, but I will later.

Ultimately, there will always be people at the bottom of the pay scale working entry level jobs for one reason or another. Some of those people are not driven or intelligent enough to push beyond that level, others for entirely different reasons. Although I don't personally hold much respect for the majority of those people, I do feel they deserve to earn a wage where they can comfortabley support a life style with conservative management of their finances.

These are just my opinions of course, I appreciate and enjoy discussing these issues with anyone who can respectfully disagree with someone who holds opposing views.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[RRxtar]

the post ww2 decade were one of the biggest booms in the world. ever. of course unemployment would be low. but oh but guess where a good chunk of people worked back then? labor building the newly expanding post war country and labor in manufacturing.

[Death2Theft]

Thats all fine and dandy but do you really think everyone out there has the option to do that? What if at age 25 you were 100k in school debt?
Sometimes life sucks. I got fired from my career of 8 years in 2009, and no one was hiring my position to a level that I felt I deserved. So I decided to start my own company. I made less money that year, at age 25, than a 14 year old kid selling fries part time after school. srs. 2010 was a little better. 2011 Im making about 4 times as much as I did at my old job. It fucking sucked getting here, took 2 years and a massive amount of debt, and this year all I do is work, but the success is fantastic. I didnt have a good job, so I made one. Now I employ people as well, so not only have I created a good job for myself, but Ive created a few good jobs for other people as well.

The difference between me and these whiners? When times get tough and their job sucks they go stand around holding signs about it. When times got tough for me, I had ambition and work ethic and prospered.

[Death2Theft]

Part of the problem are the lobbyists. Like when how Obama promised to bankrupt all the coal fired power plants. Yet GE plants havn't been touched by this, also if you sold your plant to GE they will allow it to continue running. Anyone remember how enron made record profits? Imagine what would happen when GE starts shutting down plants and charging crazy prices... I mean enron would be a blip (one state) on the radar compared to this monopoly GE has going for it.

[MindBomber]

Thats all fine and dandy but do you really think everyone out there has the option to do that? What if at age 25 you were 100k in school debt?

And didn't have a career that allows you to easily start your own business?

During the recession I went from working 60 hours a week at a great wage, to taking a pay cut and working 20 hours a week. Fortunately, I was paid as a sub-contractor working in construction, so I reached out to contractors and home owners taking on small jobs that wouldn't be profitable for a typical sub-contractor who has overhead and the extra effort earned me a great income. That flexibility is one of the benefits of working in construction.

If I were newly graduated with a finance degree and massive student loan debt, I wouldn't have had that option during the recession. I would have been over qualified for construction, retail, food service and no matter how many jobs I applied for the likelihood of finding something would have been low. So, if that person, who may well still be unemployed or not working in their field, stands in the streets trying to enact change for weeks without compensation is a whiner or has a poor work ethic then maybe you can suggest an alternative.

[Ronin]

So apparently this is happening in Vancouver next Saturday?

I might head down to take some pictures.

[Redlines_Daily]

^I'll be there

[goo3]

If members of the service industry, who our economy is fundamentally dependant on existing, simply all moved to less expensive regions then who would work as a barista serving educated professionals in the nicer neighbourhoods. Hondaracer, in his infinite ignorance, seems to think a person should move to Alberta or take whatever they can get and stop complaining.

Our economy is dependent on services, sure, but not baristas. 'Services' is container that includes much more. Software can be a product or a service, for example.

The market will set the wage. If no one can survive working there, the coffeeshop will have to increase the pay. Econ is a wonderful course to learn about how our system works and the tradeoffs you have to make. The theory is not common knowledge cuz ppl in the media really distort the facts.

Thats all fine and dandy but do you really think everyone out there has the option to do that? What if at age 25 you were 100k in school debt?

:heckno:

I would recommend that you stop at 20K and work coop or something to pay it off before moving forward. If you can't find anything, then maybe that's a signal to reconsider your major. God will not come down from the sky and save you from bad choices. Maybe this person with 100K in debt has had too comfortable a life!

[Culverin]

And didn't have a career that allows you to easily start your own business?

During the recession I went from working 60 hours a week at a great wage, to taking a pay cut and working 20 hours a week. Fortunately, I was paid as a sub-contractor working in construction, so I reached out to contractors and home owners taking on small jobs that wouldn't be profitable for a typical sub-contractor who has overhead and the extra effort earned me a great income. That flexibility is one of the benefits of working in construction.

If I were newly graduated with a finance degree and massive student loan debt, I wouldn't have had that option during the recession. I would have been over qualified for construction, retail, food service and no matter how many jobs I applied for the likelihood of finding something would have been low. So, if that person, who may well still be unemployed or not working in their field, stands in the streets trying to enact change for weeks without compensation is a whiner or has a poor work ethic then maybe you can suggest an alternative.

If you worked as contractor, then you took a narrow field of work, it is a risky business.
If you decided to take out loans for a finance degree, then you took not only a risk for a field but also for a loan.
You balanced both long term gain and a fulfilling profession against the risk of a narrow field or a loan.
Suck it up.

If you wanted something safe, then you don't take something rewarding.
You work your way up to become a manager of Mcdonalads.

It's not just who isn't a hard worker and whiner.
It's who made bad decisions in life and ends up paying for it either.


I have made some pretty bad decisions, but you don't blame management that you can't learn to work the system to your advantage.


I keep hearing about cases where people take risks then raging at the system when they got burned. They had lots of lower risk options on the table but explain it away as "beneath them".


If you are hard working enough and can talk somebody into holding onto your job, you'd be the best damn janitor ever.

Don't blame it on the system.


The only thing I blame on the system is that the big banks got bailed out.
And there isn't enough transparency with large government contract.

[MindBomber]

If you worked as contractor, then you took a narrow field of work, it is a risky business.
If you decided to take out loans for a finance degree, then you took not only a risk for a field but also for a loan.
You balanced both long term gain and a fulfilling profession against the risk of a narrow field or a loan.
Suck it up.

If you wanted something safe, then you don't take something rewarding.
You work your way up to become a manager of Mcdonalads.

It's not just who isn't a hard worker and whiner.
It's who made bad decisions in life and ends up paying for it either.

I have made some pretty bad decisions, but you don't blame management that you can't learn to work the system to your advantage.

I keep hearing about cases where people take risks then raging at the system when they got burned. They had lots of lower risk options on the table but explain it away as "beneath them".

If you are hard working enough and can talk somebody into holding onto your job, you'd be the best damn janitor ever.

Don't blame it on the system.

The only thing I blame on the system is that the big banks got bailed out.
And there isn't enough transparency with large government contract.

Contracting isn't a narrow field, it's a hugely diverse field, the skills anyone in construction learns are transferable to almost any specific field in the industry. There is also almost always a significant number of construction jobs available.

A finance or business degree is the same, it's not something someone pursues for intellectual fulfilment, it's about the long term financial security; that's why I used that hypothetical example. Someone pursues a degree in history or art is taking a risk in exchange for the potential of a fulfilling profession, I have no sympathy for someone with a degree in literature being unemployed.

The majority of people don't choose jobs low level jobs, like work as a janitor or manager at mcdonalds, because they want to earn more than twenty dollars an hour at some point in their lives. It would be tough to find a manager at the store front level of mcdonalds not living pay cheque to pay cheque, even with a financially conservative life style.

The reality is that people with practical degrees have been out of work for years, because of the unnecessary risks taken by big business in an attempt to maximise profits. It's the systems fault for the lack of regulation put in place to prevent that, the lack of regulation directly correlating with the power of lobbyists in America. American politicians had the world economy holding their breath for a week over an insignificant sum of money for fuck sakes, that's the level of disconnect the people at the top have.

[RRxtar]

Thats all fine and dandy but do you really think everyone out there has the option to do that? What if at age 25 you were 100k in school debt?
Then lets roll this back to when I was 17-18 just out of highschool looking at going to university. I had a single mother who was just managing to pay the bills, I couldnt ask her to pay for my schooling. And I KNEW I didnt want 100k in loans to goto school. So I found a job and started working. Now I have a future thats in my hands, not dependent on big corporate bosses, and I probably make more money than I would have if I had gone to school.

[Death2Theft]

Is there a federal reserve in vancouver? That is the root problem not wall street.
So apparently this is happening in Vancouver next Saturday?

I might head down to take some pictures.

[Noir]

Then lets roll this back to when I was 17-18 just out of highschool looking at going to university. I had a single mother who was just managing to pay the bills, I couldnt ask her to pay for my schooling. And I KNEW I didnt want 100k in loans to goto school. So I found a job and started working. Now I have a future thats in my hands, not dependent on big corporate bosses, and I probably make more money than I would have if I had gone to school.

*sigh

Good examples but you must know that there is no one CORRECT path to life. Even if someone else followed the exact same paths and decisions you had is not a guarantee to yielding the same results.

No knock on you and I congratulate how well you're doing, but I laugh a little when I hear people with success stories say.... "If only you did this... this... this..."


Does one ever consider that they did? Or perhaps that they followed another model of paths to success (perhaps from their parents, friends, etc) and did not yield the result desired?

[iEatClams]

*sigh

Good examples but you must know that there is no one CORRECT path to life. Even if someone else followed the exact same paths and decisions you had is not a guarantee to yielding the same results.

No knock on you and I congratulate how well you're doing, but I laugh a little when I hear people with success stories say.... "If only you did this... this... this..."


Does one ever consider that they did? Or perhaps that they followed another model of paths to success (perhaps from their parents, friends, etc) and did not yield the result desired?

+ 1

There are many hard working individuals that succeed, and there are many hard working individuals that don't.

[Gridlock]

Ok, in between work I have been doing reading and research on this so I can know for myself what is going on.

Here is what I have come to.

I think the system is fucked. I think we all know it to be so. I am assuming to be a cross section of middle class folk-give or take-I see a few pictures of some pretty pricey cars sitting in front of some pretty pricey housing around here.

What most of US do, is accept it, and work within it. We know the system is fucked, but that does not stop the vast majority from going to work on Monday. We know that up the chain, someone is in charge that makes money off of what we do. Hell, I quit my job and starting working for myself, and guess what? My clients make money off of what I do.

I think there is a growing segment of the population that has watched their parents work within it, and their grandparents and really all for nothing. Cogs in a machine.

I do not think that the peaceniks in New York are the only ones that know the system is fucked. And by fucked, I mean unsustainable. In our system, you have an ever growing need to find new markets, and new opportunity. If you cannot find new markets, then you sell existing customers new product. Eventually, something gives. And its giving. I do not think the economy is going to return to normal-not without some external force to create change. Do I think this is the only time in history that people have asked these questions? NO.

I think things probably looked pretty bleak in 1929. I think they looked pretty bleak in the 30s, and definitely in the early 40s. But the war was an external force that caused change. There was war production, and an entire generation of men gone and all the other factors of that level of war, plus countries obliterated that left the US as the only competitor in a new world stage.

People fear change. And honey, change is happening right now.

In my tin foil hat epiphany that I had today, I think I may have finally decided in my mind whats happening. In the quest for providing an ever greater world in which to live, debt has been the answer, and its starting to crush countries. The US is really not going to easily cut 1.5 trillion from their budget to even balance their books. If they cut defense, they die. If they cut social programs-they die. If they raise revenue-haha, they die.

(cut defense, and the rest of the world takes them out, cut social, and the people rise up and if they raise revenue by 1 trillion, the people rise as the economy dies)

So, its a matter of time. And here is the tin-foil part. The guys in power, they know it too. Is it possible-possible, that the New World Order conspiracy may have a basis in fact actually planning for the end of the world economy? The first thing you would have is a large, confused, angry population that has now contributed their lives to a dead system, and someone stands up and says, well, this is what we had in mind. It actually does not seem so far fetched. That is exactly how the US came to be in the first place. Some people started talking about a brave new day without England, and then started planning for it, and then actively worked to bring it about.

I think the part that everyone kind of rolls their eyes about is the desire to bring it about, as opposed to the necessity.

I just re-read this, and it comes off as rambling. Most of my reading has been really left wing shit, so maybe I will go back to my middle of the road yay capitalism self in the morning.

[RRxtar]

*sigh

Good examples but you must know that there is no one CORRECT path to life. Even if someone else followed the exact same paths and decisions you had is not a guarantee to yielding the same results.

No knock on you and I congratulate how well you're doing, but I laugh a little when I hear people with success stories say.... "If only you did this... this... this..."


Does one ever consider that they did? Or perhaps that they followed another model of paths to success (perhaps from their parents, friends, etc) and did not yield the result desired?
i agree with you. i have been very fortunate to have a good head on my shoulders and a little bit of luck and a good handshake to get to where i am now and where im heading. i didnt follow any footsteps, i just sorta found my way thru the mess, with good ears and picking up little bits of advice anywhere i could.

but on the same token, there are tens of thousands of people pouring into business and finance and god forbid arts programs every year. surely they must have heard stories of people 2-4 years ahead of them coming out with no jobs available. would it not make sense to listen to those stories of no jobs, and try doing something else?


in any case, i think ive dragged this topic away from where it was. as i said a page or 2 back, i absolutely agree there needs to be a change with the way the government and banks and investors are run. im just making a point about these kids using the protests as an excuse to complain about sucking at life and how its not their fault. and obviously theres a good chunk of people coming from below middle class with legit reasons, im not talking about them.

[Gridlock]

See, this is the stuff that just fuels the fire:

quote:

Cain earlier this month addressed protesters in a Wall Street Journal interview, saying: 'Don't blame Wall Street, don't blame the big banks, if you don't have a job and you're not rich, blame yourself.'

Read more: Occupy Wall Street: It's not just politics... Sex, drugs and love brigade hijack Wall Street protest | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2047168/Occupy-Wall-Street-Its-just-politics--Sex-drugs-love-brigade-hijack-Wall-Street-protest.html#ixzz1aM5gaS9x)

I think...think...its ok to talk a little bit about the role that big banks have in affecting peoples lives. Given the 700bn golden handshake they got when they fucked up-even the most ardent republican needs to address the fact that this is a huge, unprecedented slap in the face to capitalism-unless that republican has blinders on.

[iEatClams]

^ no doubt there are many people that are really actually lazy, do not wish to work, abuse the system, and are only protesting to cause trouble. We should not feel sympathetic to these people. These are the people that should blame themselves.

But there are many more people that want to work, are able to work, and wish to work for a decent wage, and there are very few jobs for these people. There are many people that are currently working, and wish to find work that can maximize their skill sets, in jobs that people actually need (skilled labourers, educators, medical staff etc), but there are not enough jobs out there. Instead they are dong manual labour or working at some low paying jobs and are struggling to make ends meet.

I bet a lot of people can fall into these categories.

When the unemployment rate is as high as 20% in countries like Spain, I really dont think 1 out of 5 Spanairds are "lazy", and should blame themselves. How about the 40% of unemployment for young adults in their early 20s in certain parts of Europe? These people will feel that they will have nothing to lose and will most likely protest.

[iEatClams]

People fear change. And honey, change is happening right now.

In my tin foil hat epiphany that I had today, I think I may have finally decided in my mind whats happening. In the quest for providing an ever greater world in which to live, debt has been the answer, and its starting to crush countries. The US is really not going to easily cut 1.5 trillion from their budget to even balance their books. If they cut defense, they die. If they cut social programs-they die. If they raise revenue-haha, they die.




I think many people are underestimating one thing and that's the power of Human innovation and adaptability.

[scottsman]

Some of the posts on the 99% website are a bit much. I really cannot understand how some people get themselves in such a hole and live far above their means. 50,000 in student loans, no job for a couple years, etc...

If people want to protest then let them have a voice but at the end of the day you have to look out for yourself and your family and not always expect government or other people to do so for you.

[minoru_tanaka]

Since 1950, the lowest unemployment rate was in 1953, when it was at 2.5%, and personal tax rates back then was 91% for anyone making more than $200,000.

$200,000.00 in 1953 is $1,641,790.26 in 2011. Thus, anyone making $1.6 million would be taxed marginally at 91%. Tax rates were high back then, and it didnt stop people from making more money.

Is that number right? Sounds a bit insane. Why would I bother trying to make $300K instead of 200K if in the end all I get is 9K more?

[Culverin]

I think so many people live beyond their means.

http://i.imgur.com/MQxp6.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8t2RCVb9gg

[will068]

Doctors make life and death decisions daily, arguably work in an occupation that requires a higher skill set than a CEO, have a much more extensive education than anyone working in business is required, are in extremely high demand all over the world, also work long hours and are always on call; given that, one would think that a doctor should be entitled to equal or greater pay than a CEO.

Yes, a CEO has a demanding job that requires a significant set of skills, but in comparison to other highly skilled occupations they are still earning far to much.


For an institution whose goal is to make money, the owners of that institution (shareholders) are willing to pay a lot of money to individuals who have great visions and could lead them to their preferred goal.

On the other hand, I don't give a fuck about another person's life unless it's my life or someone close to me. I am only willing to pay a fortune to doctors who can save my family's life when needed be.



Overall, paying for a CEO serves the interest of many. Paying for a Doctor serves the interest of a collective few. Thus, CEOs make more money.


Now let's get back on topic:

I myself manage clients that are in telecommunications and energy sector. Let me tell you, when clients of mine complains about certain issues, the loudest customer will always have my ear. I may not prioritize them first, but they are always in my radar. In a lot of cases, the squeakiest wheel gets the oil first.

These protesters are doing exactly that. The American people voted for a President who campaign promised more regulations for the financial industry. Guess what happened, Obama's all star team of economic and financial advisers for the country that were hired were the same people that lead to the destruction of the American financial sector for the past 20 years. Guess what ? all that promise for regulation and accountability in the Private sector ? :fuckthatshit:

People are complaining because we have all this bailout money that was supposed to revive the economy. However, trickle down economics does not work. The buck just remained up there - at the upper echelon of society.

[Death2Theft]

Capitalism was *NEVER* the problem. The us hasn't had real Capitalism since the 50-60's. They have crony capitalism, you think china lets just any american set up factories there? They had sweetheart deals back with Henry Kissinger flying to China with the president (nixon i think) dictating who would be allowed in China to leverage out the other players. Does setting up too big to fail companies sound like Capitalism to you? Giving GE waivers so they dont have to buy health insurance for their workers, while having other agencies (epa etc) ensure that non GE power companies have coverage. Really? Is that how Capitalism is supposed to work? Does that sound like a free market to you?
The master plan here is so have GE take over the majority of the power then you can guess what happens next.... enron ring a bell? They start doing rolling black outs jacking up the cost to everyone. Keep the poor busy paying more power bills.
True Capitalism would allow many companies to compete and very slim chances of a monopoly. People that are trying to blame the "rich" are the most ignorant. Millionaires drive nicer cars have bigger houses, but they also buy more produce and pay for the service industry. The problem here are the multinational billionaires that setup off shore tax free shelters taking money out of the country and the people.
In history the politicians start a class war to take the heat off themselves. Make the poor even more poor and when your poor, chances are your ill informed. They direct the anger of the poor towards the middle class, shit gets wrecked but in the end it never works and people find out who is really responsible. Heads will roll, hopefully before too much sh!t gets wrecked :(

Ps if the US cut defense budget who is going to come invade them? Mexico who's drug cartels can't even get their own guns without help from the US gov? Get some fresh air man your getting hot boxed by your neighbors again.
Ok, in between work I have been doing reading and research on this so I can know for myself what is going on.

Here is what I have come to.

I think the system is fucked. I think we all know it to be so. I am assuming to be a cross section of middle class folk-give or take-I see a few pictures of some pretty pricey cars sitting in front of some pretty pricey housing around here.

What most of US do, is accept it, and work within it. We know the system is fucked, but that does not stop the vast majority from going to work on Monday. We know that up the chain, someone is in charge that makes money off of what we do. Hell, I quit my job and starting working for myself, and guess what? My clients make money off of what I do.

I think there is a growing segment of the population that has watched their parents work within it, and their grandparents and really all for nothing. Cogs in a machine.

I do not think that the peaceniks in New York are the only ones that know the system is fucked. And by fucked, I mean unsustainable. In our system, you have an ever growing need to find new markets, and new opportunity. If you cannot find new markets, then you sell existing customers new product. Eventually, something gives. And its giving. I do not think the economy is going to return to normal-not without some external force to create change. Do I think this is the only time in history that people have asked these questions? NO.

I think things probably looked pretty bleak in 1929. I think they looked pretty bleak in the 30s, and definitely in the early 40s. But the war was an external force that caused change. There was war production, and an entire generation of men gone and all the other factors of that level of war, plus countries obliterated that left the US as the only competitor in a new world stage.

People fear change. And honey, change is happening right now.

In my tin foil hat epiphany that I had today, I think I may have finally decided in my mind whats happening. In the quest for providing an ever greater world in which to live, debt has been the answer, and its starting to crush countries. The US is really not going to easily cut 1.5 trillion from their budget to even balance their books. If they cut defense, they die. If they cut social programs-they die. If they raise revenue-haha, they die.

(cut defense, and the rest of the world takes them out, cut social, and the people rise up and if they raise revenue by 1 trillion, the people rise as the economy dies)

So, its a matter of time. And here is the tin-foil part. The guys in power, they know it too. Is it possible-possible, that the New World Order conspiracy may have a basis in fact actually planning for the end of the world economy? The first thing you would have is a large, confused, angry population that has now contributed their lives to a dead system, and someone stands up and says, well, this is what we had in mind. It actually does not seem so far fetched. That is exactly how the US came to be in the first place. Some people started talking about a brave new day without England, and then started planning for it, and then actively worked to bring it about.

I think the part that everyone kind of rolls their eyes about is the desire to bring it about, as opposed to the necessity.

I just re-read this, and it comes off as rambling. Most of my reading has been really left wing shit, so maybe I will go back to my middle of the road yay capitalism self in the morning.

[Gridlock]

And I can tell you that throughout history, when you have a large group of poor and downtrodden people, that is when govts are overthrown.

France, Germany, Russia, US...I am sure there are others.

The US now has a class of people that have stupid money. Stupid money is when you have eliminated all forms of limits on expenditures and not only can buy anything you want, but start collecting multiples just for something to spend it on.

I personally have no problem with having a rich upper class. I understand to do that, you need to have a group of poor. The problem comes from having a widely held, and secure middle class, and they do not.

[taylor192]

Thats all fine and dandy but do you really think everyone out there has the option to do that? What if at age 25 you were 100k in school debt?
If you're 25yo and $100K in debt, the system has failed you. Unless you're going into a profession in demand that pays extremely well (medicine for example) then the system should have never lent you that much money.

I have many friends that graduated 1-2 years late (ie 5-6 years for a 4 year degree) and ended up $10Ks more in debt. Was it worth it? Most are government workers making $50K/yr, so yes cause they needed the piece of paper to get the job, yet overall they didn't need the degree for a paper pushing government job.

This is why people speculate education is the next bubble to pop as the return on an expensive education is not what it used to be. I hope online universities offering pretaped courses that you can complete at your own pace and for significantly less $$$ becomes a more popular option. Right now you can do this, yet it is not revered so people look down upon it and avoid it.

[taylor192]

but start collecting multiples just for something to spend it on
This is my new favourite picture of the "poor":

http://i.imgur.com/MQxp6.jpg

[Gridlock]

This is a very left-wing website...so I take it with a grain of salt, but:

If Top 1% Hadn't Ripped Off Trillions, You'd Likely Be Making Thousands of Dollars More Right Now | Economy | AlterNet (http://www.alternet.org/economy/152621/if_top_1_hadnt_ripped_off_trillions_youd_likely_be _making_thousands_of_dollars_more_right_now)

Between 1949 and 1979, those at the top never took in more than 12.8 percent of the total. When Ronald Reagan was elected in 1980, they grabbed 10 percent of our economic output, and the rest of us shared 90 percent. And that's when things started to shift, relatively rapidly. In Reagan's final year in office, the top 1 percent of American households grabbed 15.5 percent of the nation's income.

The last stat they provide is:

By the time George W. Bush was elected, they were taking in 21.5 percent. And in 2007, the year before the crash, they were pulling in 23.5 percent of our pre-tax income, leaving the other 99 percent to share just 76.5 percent of the fruits of our output.

The estimate is that if things had not changed in the 80s, wages would be $12,500 more.

I wanted to add:

If this is true(and thats a big if for me-they did not link to the data they used) then this legitimizes the movement for me.

The rules of the game have changed. People should be pissed about it. If you look and say that we used to share in 90% of the nations wealth, and now we share in 76% of it-and falling! then this is not about we are flat broke, and downtrodden at all. It is about playing a game unfairly balanced towards the houses take.

PLUS-what could a group of consumers with a more equal take in the rewards accomplish with the extra income.

OMG...I think they may have made me a believer.

[Gridlock]

If you're 25yo and $100K in debt, the system has failed you. Unless you're going into a profession in demand that pays extremely well (medicine for example) then the system should have never lent you that much money.

I have many friends that graduated 1-2 years late (ie 5-6 years for a 4 year degree) and ended up $10Ks more in debt. Was it worth it? Most are government workers making $50K/yr, so yes cause they needed the piece of paper to get the job, yet overall they didn't need the degree for a paper pushing government job.

This is why people speculate education is the next bubble to pop as the return on an expensive education is not what it used to be. I hope online universities offering pretaped courses that you can complete at your own pace and for significantly less $$$ becomes a more popular option. Right now you can do this, yet it is not revered so people look down upon it and avoid it.

I completely agree with you. I was in university at 19-right after high school. I did not really know what I wanted to do, and really I was not even focused on school. I dropped after 1 year, and owed 10,000. NOw-a lot of that was my fault-I could have worked at a better job in the summer, and I rented a kick-ass apartment to live in. Could have worked during school and probably drank a whole lot less.

Higher education is now meaningless. If everyone has a degree, then a degree does not differentiate you enough to be the higher earner that could pay for it.

[Death2Theft]

Capitalism hasn't been working in the US so long even as a druggy who doesn't play by the laws can't get around the gov.
Wachovia Bank Accused of Laundering Billions From Mexican Drug Cartels « Justice in Mexico (http://justiceinmexico.org/2011/04/05/wachovia-bank-accused-of-laundering-billions-from-mexican-drug-cartels/)
384billion laundered and fined a paultry 110 mil?
HSBC Accused of Laundering Money for Mexico Drug Cartels - Sinaloa Cartel - Zimbio (http://www.zimbio.com/Sinaloa+Cartel/articles/qttgq7VJlfn/HSBC+Accused+Laundering+Money+Mexico+Drug)
Laundered 400+ billion and fined a few million.
The US GOV allows the sinaloa cartel to ship drugs into the states, if local law enforcement busts them, the fed comes in and lets them go.
All because the cartel agrees to launder money thru said banks, everyone else will get jail time but not these guys.

War on drugs? HAH!
Hell ask the US vets returning if they were being told to guard opium fields and help plant/ship the stuff.

[Culverin]

If you're 25yo and $100K in debt, the system has failed you. Unless you're going into a profession in demand that pays extremely well (medicine for example) then the system should have never lent you that much money.

I disagree. Our system as you so put it is based on freedom.
I like a system that lets gives me freedom.
I believe in DRM free, FLAC, region free and un-Apple-like policies.
Likewise, I believe in a system that lets an individual take great risks for great rewards. To say otherwise, I must heartily disagree. I don't want to live in a system where I have am forced to play by a very narrow set of rules.
I hate bringing religion into this, but that is essentially the crux of Christianity. God gave us choice because choice is good.
What we choose to do on the other hand is entirely on the individual.


Higher education is now meaningless. If everyone has a degree, then a degree does not differentiate you enough to be the higher earner that could pay for it.

I disagree once again. A higher education isn't meaningless. It maybe meaningless if you are only looking at it from a narrow perspective that a higher education is your ticket to a better paying job than the average person. As you put it, to "differentiate you enough to be the higher earner". However, if you look at society as a whole, higher education improves human rights, womens rights and eliminates bigotry that stems from racial hate or misplaced religious zealotry.
I really hate to call you out on this, but your view on higher education is very selfish and at no point intersects with the greater good of your fellow man.

[Gridlock]

I disagree once again. A higher education isn't meaningless. It maybe meaningless if you are only looking at it from a narrow perspective that a higher education is your ticket to a better paying job than the average person. As you put it, to "differentiate you enough to be the higher earner". However, if you look at society as a whole, higher education improves human rights, womens rights and eliminates bigotry that stems from racial hate or misplaced religious zealotry.
I really hate to call you out on this, but your view on higher education is very selfish and at no point intersects with the greater good of your fellow man.

Oh! Do not get me wrong-I am all for the sharing of knowledge and learning for the love of knowledge, and do not advocate shutting down the liberal arts wings because you cannot sell it on wall street.

I am saying, that pumping people into these programs for the sake of a degree is not going to work.

Maybe I should not have said meaningless. Meaningless in the corporate world, maybe.

There was a time when there were far less 4 year degree holding people in your average batch of resumes, and even a liberal arts degree would put you ahead of people without a degree, not for that which you learned, but the fact that you are capable of learning it.

Not hating on the fine arts crowd-but those skills apply more to academia than your average mid management level job that is the bread and butter of the working world.

[Gridlock]

I will say, that at 19, being hearded through a room signing loan documents that I did not have a chance to read, looking back I have this feeling that I was a piece of meat in the Royal Bank loan machine.

Sorry 18...not even legal age.

[will068]

I completely agree with you. I was in university at 19-right after high school. I did not really know what I wanted to do, and really I was not even focused on school. I dropped after 1 year, and owed 10,000. NOw-a lot of that was my fault-I could have worked at a better job in the summer, and I rented a kick-ass apartment to live in. Could have worked during school and probably drank a whole lot less.

Higher education is now meaningless. If everyone has a degree, then a degree does not differentiate you enough to be the higher earner that could pay for it.

School is merely a tool to help you build out your career. Think of it as a hammer. You can use that hammer to build a house, build another person's house, sell it, make it fancy and patent that hammer etc. That's what education is, a hammer or perhaps a nice saw. Having a hammer around doesn't hurt. Like having school around doesn't hurt - unless you paid $100k for that hammer you don't know what the fuck you're going to do with it.

Right now in the states, a lot of people paid for that expensive hammer, and not much other people are willing to work with the newbies with these expensive hammers. Why ? Perhaps there are no new projects to build, no new houses to make, no new boats to fix etc. No Why is that ? America is the richest country in the world, people in this country surely want the services of this newbies with new hammers so they can train them and make them do projects and such. As it turned out, a few bandits robbed a lot of people in all the neighborhoods in the country. As a result, everyone has less money. Not as much money available to build new projects.

The funny part is, the government said it was ok for these bandits to steal the money. Hell, the government even even passed laws such that the bandits can do this. Even when people tried to get their money back, the government protected these bandits. Clever bandits, stupid people. These people voted for this government to help get their money back. Stupid people and their expensive hammers.

[Gridlock]

To steer this back out of semantics, I think we should really focus on what the real issue is:

The fundamental shift in the balance of power in the last 30 years, whereby the distribution of wealth has been skewed to favour the upper tier.

Really, we can sit and pick apart who forms the protest block, and decide whether on a case by case basis if they are worthy of support-perhaps some should not have gone to expensive school. Perhaps some should not have purchased an iphone. All of that is semantics.

The question is: Is the system, to which they are members, a fair system that still continues to reward hard work?

If harder work continues to result in a smaller piece of the pie, then what you have done is create a group of people that do not appreciate the value of hard work and sacrifice, thereby creating a group of people that you can criticise for choosing an expensive school and an iphone.

Therefore-for the people that want to end the protest block(Herman Cain, the tea party, the far right and conservatives) all you need to do is show that the system is still fair, and you will have succeeded.

I have come to the conclusion that it may not be. I think the true sham in US politics is politicians will continue to wave shiny things in front of peoples faces to focus on, all the while not truly caring.

That used to be abortion. Now its gay marriage.

[Everymans]

There's a lot of bleak mindsets in this thread.
>Why spend all that money on to get a degree in a field that isn't hiring?
Because it's what they want to do and they believe they will be good at and enjoy it. Not everyone wants to be a heartless lawyer or has the funds and skills to be a doctor.
>Why don't they get a job outside their field?
Why go to school for something and not use the skills you learned? You spend $60,000 to get the education to get a $60,000 a year job but the only jobs available are for $9? What a slap in the face that is. 80% of people who graduate from an economics course could run a big business, it's not fuckin rocket science.
>Take down the corporations! They're evil!
If you destroy all the corporations in the world you would lose almost all of the jobs and revenue in the world. And new company's would emerge and become those corporations because every corporation started as a small business that offered a great service. What should be done is that their effect on politics should be limited, and if they fuck up and need a massive amount of money to save their asses, they should gain those funds through service cuts and maybe wise up on their spending services.(Most of the banks that demand bail outs have their label on billion dollar skyscrapers and stadiums, they don't need that shit. They also spend millions on commercials and advertising. What the fuck does a bank need to advertise for? Everyone knows they exist and what they do.)
>Go up north and work on an oil rig.
Easier said then done. Most people who go up there get into hard drugs or become alcoholics. It's miserable and depressing up there and it takes a lot of hope out of yea. I did it for a summer and made a lot of money, but it was the worst summer of my life. And the job I worked up there gave me skills that I can't really use anywhere else in the world unless I wanna stick with the oil industry.

Another solution I think is that people should stop taking out such huge loans if they're not certain about what they are taking a loan out for. Look at all these people in kits buying 4 million dollar houses when they won't even make that much in their lives. At some point it's going to turn on them and ruin their lives. If you want to go school, make sure you are certain that what you are taking is what you really want to do. Shit is not cheap and their is nothing worse then wasting that money on an education that you will never use. We aren't living in germany where school is free and taxes is 37%. (Thank god for that)

[iEatClams]

Is that number right? Sounds a bit insane. Why would I bother trying to make $300K instead of 200K if in the end all I get is 9K more?




Since 1950, the lowest unemployment rate was in 1953, when it was at 2.5%, and personal tax rates back then was 91% for anyone making more than $200,000.

$200,000.00 in 1953 is $1,641,790.26 in 2011. Thus, anyone making $1.6 million would be taxed marginally at 91%. Tax rates were high back then, and it didnt stop people from making more money.


This was the top personal income tax rate, not the corporate.

200,000K back then was the equivalent of $1.6 Million today. back then a can of coke probably costs only 5 cents, and a meal at the restaurant would be 50 cents or so.

it's like saying, if you made $1.6 million a year, you only keep $9,000 on the next $100,000 you make.

[iEatClams]

Is that number right? Sounds a bit insane. Why would I bother trying to make $300K instead of 200K if in the end all I get is 9K more?

A lot of it is all relative, but Americans think paying a 50% top tax rate in Canada is insane.

[iEatClams]

This is a very left-wing website...so I take it with a grain of salt, but:

If Top 1% Hadn't Ripped Off Trillions, You'd Likely Be Making Thousands of Dollars More Right Now | Economy | AlterNet (http://www.alternet.org/economy/152621/if_top_1_hadnt_ripped_off_trillions_youd_likely_be _making_thousands_of_dollars_more_right_now)

Between 1949 and 1979, those at the top never took in more than 12.8 percent of the total. When Ronald Reagan was elected in 1980, they grabbed 10 percent of our economic output, and the rest of us shared 90 percent. And that's when things started to shift, relatively rapidly. In Reagan's final year in office, the top 1 percent of American households grabbed 15.5 percent of the nation's income.

The last stat they provide is:

By the time George W. Bush was elected, they were taking in 21.5 percent. And in 2007, the year before the crash, they were pulling in 23.5 percent of our pre-tax income, leaving the other 99 percent to share just 76.5 percent of the fruits of our output.

The estimate is that if things had not changed in the 80s, wages would be $12,500 more.

I wanted to add:

If this is true(and thats a big if for me-they did not link to the data they used) then this legitimizes the movement for me.

The rules of the game have changed. People should be pissed about it. If you look and say that we used to share in 90% of the nations wealth, and now we share in 76% of it-and falling! then this is not about we are flat broke, and downtrodden at all. It is about playing a game unfairly balanced towards the houses take.

PLUS-what could a group of consumers with a more equal take in the rewards accomplish with the extra income.

OMG...I think they may have made me a believer.

It started around Reagan's time and his Reaganomics : Reduced tax rates and less regulation and the Trickle Down Theory.

In my humble opinion some of the solutions might be:

1. Lower corporate tax rates but eliminate loopholes, helps keep tax rates competitive, but eliminate many Big corporations that are currently Effectively paying zero taxes due to credits and legal loopholes.

2. Increase Personal Tax rates - Things like the Buffett rule and force alternative minimum taxes. Also get rid of loopholes like hedge fund managers paying only 15% rate due to how income is considered (dividends, capital gains etc).

3. Focus on Education, spend more money developing kids to be good at Arithmetic, Engineering, science etc. This will have a positive return in the long run.

In 2004 only 6% of U.S. degrees were awarded in engineering, half the average for rich countries. In Japan it’s 20%, and in Germany it’s 16%. In 2008–09 there were more psychology majors than engineering majors in America and more fitness-studies majors than physical-sciences majors.

Federal funding for the physical sciences fell 54% over the 25 years since 1970 and has continued to fall.

*30 years ago, 10% of California’s general revenue went to higher education—and the result was the crown jewel of American public education, the University of California system. Just 3% went to prisons. Today, 11% goes to prisons and 8% to higher education, a number that is dropping fast. There are now about as many Americans who work in the prison business as in auto manufacturing*

4. Limit political contributions. Force more regulations so that companies can't manipulate the market.

[Gridlock]

This was the top personal income tax rate, not the corporate.

200,000K back then was the equivalent of $1.6 Million today. back then a can of coke probably costs only 5 cents, and a meal at the restaurant would be 50 cents or so.

it's like saying, if you made $1.6 million a year, you only keep $9,000 on the next $100,000 you make.

Bingo! There is the problem. The tax rate cutoffs have not changed to meet the continual change in the value of money.

There is no 1 million+ column on the tax return, and effectively, there was in 1950.

I think its re-freaking-donculous that someone that makes 2 million a year is lumped in the same group as $200,000.

And this is what causes the top to get richer.

Meaning, the protesters in New York have a point.

[iEatClams]

^ this is exactly why I support the protests. It gets people talking and brings these issues out there.

Warren Buffett, 2nd richest guy in the US has been saying this for a long time now about how he has a lower tax rate than his secretary. His tax rate was 19% compared to the 33% that his employees paid. “How can this be fair?” Buffett asked, regarding how little he pays in taxes compared to his employees. “How can this be right?”

"My friends and I have been coddled long enough by a billionaire-friendly Congress. It’s time for our government to get serious about shared sacrifice"

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/15/opinion/stop-coddling-the-super-rich.html

[bing]

^ this is exactly why I support the protests. It gets people talking and brings these issues out there.

Warren Buffett, 2nd richest guy in the US has been saying this for a long time now about how he has a lower tax rate than his secretary. His tax rate was 19% compared to the 33% that his employees paid. “How can this be fair?” Buffett asked, regarding how little he pays in taxes compared to his employees. “How can this be right?”

"My friends and I have been coddled long enough by a billionaire-friendly Congress. It’s time for our government to get serious about shared sacrifice"

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/15/opinion/stop-coddling-the-super-rich.html

You've used that quote multiple times, but each time I can't help but think it's a bit misleading and needs to be looked at in context. This applies more to the U.S. because in Canada our taxes are relatively higher. Apparently, Buffett made 46 million and was taxed 17.7% while his secretary made 60,000 and was taxed 30% (without him trying to avoid paying any taxes). 17.7% is still 7820000 in taxes paid while 30% of 60,000 is 18,000, so technically, he still paid 1000x more tax than most people will ever in their lifetime each year.

I would think that the favorable tax policy is to encourage entrepreneurs and investors to use that leftover money to build and invest in companies to CREATE jobs for people. Abilities that the majority of people don't have, or don't have the balls for (risk), and thus I don't think you can compare them with his employees who do jobs that are easily trainable (earning a wage is relatively safe). One of my uncle with no financial help, created his medium sized company from scratch. One guy, who ended up creating GOOD jobs for a number of people, his engineers made 50-60k USD (in the 80s when money and the USD were worth a lot more than CAD). If we want jobs, especially good ones, we need to cultivate entrepreneurs who can innovate. Even if we take a look at Vancouver, we don't have many great jobs because we lack industries. So what a blessing it is to get a company like E.A. to set up here, suddenly we have great paying software engineering jobs.

Interesting fact: Forbes, half of all US billionaire's are self-made.

[bing]

A lot of it is all relative, but Americans think paying a 50% top tax rate in Canada is insane.

I remember hearing from a dentist that the top income bracket is actually over 50%. At the time, it made me think it was quite ridiculous that the government could take more than half of what you made. On the other hand, I think that since we have decent social programs, which cost money, I think the high tax can be somewhat justified as free health care and cheap education cost our government quite a bit. Overall, I can't complain, I think we have it pretty good here in Canada versus the U.S., and our banks invested more conservatively so I see our situation as different from the Wall Street protesters.

[Gridlock]

You've used that quote multiple times, but each time I can't help but think it's a bit misleading and needs to be looked at in context. This applies more to the U.S. because in Canada our taxes are relatively higher. Apparently, Buffett made 46 million and was taxed 17.7% while his secretary made 60,000 and was taxed 30% (without him trying to avoid paying any taxes). 17.7% is still 7820000 in taxes paid while 30% of 60,000 is 18,000, so technically, he still paid a lot more tax than most people will ever in their lifetime each year.

I would think that the favorable tax policy is to encourage entrepreneurs and investors to use that leftover money to build and invest in companies to CREATE jobs for people. Abilities that the majority of people don't have, or don't have the balls for (risk), and thus I don't think you can compare them with his employees who do jobs that are easily trainable (earning a wage is relatively safe). One of my uncle with no financial help, created his medium sized company from scratch. One guy, who ended up creating GOOD jobs for a number of people, his engineers made 50-60k USD (in the 80s when money and the USD were worth a lot more than CAD). If we want jobs, especially good ones, we need to cultivate entrepreneurs who can innovate. Even if we take a look at Vancouver, we don't have many great jobs because we lack industries. So what a blessing it is to get a company like E.A. to set up here, suddenly we have great paying software engineering jobs.

Interesting fact: Forbes, half of all US billionaire's are self-made.

All true.

But are they?

If that is the goal, and its trotted out everytime that someone brings upu Buffett, then people should be able to point out all the new companies that are innovating and creating new opportunity. BUT...

The gov't had to back 1/2 billion in loans to a solar panel manufacturer, and they went bust.

Yes, I am aware that it was to create green jobs, that may not have the usual returns that billionaires would look for.

If the billionaires are causing all this growth, and new investment, then the housing crisis should have been a blip in a graph, because the employment levels would be so low, that it wouldn't have happened. They've had 30 years of the money to let it trickle, but it hasn't. Open your eyes. It is sitting, at the top.

Why would I want to put m,y money in harm's way, when whatever I did to get it in the first place is still going, and I have enough to live 10 lives over without doing anything?

I'm not sitting here advocating "overthrow!" "Fuck the proletariat" "Screw the rich!" We need the rich. Greed is good. I just think that you need a fair system, where everyone has a fair shot. To me, I think it sounds reasonable that 1% get 10%, and 99% share 90%. Without that system of incentive, then you stagnate. There needs to be a group that the rest aspire to become.

Fuck...americans are the richest country, and they can't even score some fucking healthcare out of the system.

How is anyone questioning why that group on the street should even be pissed?

[Death2Theft]

Warren buffet is the biggest schiester of them all. He stands to gain way more than u could possibly tax him for. Milk more money out of the middle class thereby justifying more money for bailouts, which is given directly to the banks he has shares in, which then sends the money off shore. Why can't people connect the dots? http://ricochet.com/main-feed/Warren-Buffett-Stands-to-Gain-from-Higher-Taxes-on-the-Rich
Just because he's a harmless looking old guy doesn't mean squat he is a wolf in sheeps clothing. http://charliebroadway.blogspot.com/2011/01/villains-warren-buffett.html


The gov spent 737$ million to create 45 permanent job at solyndra. Does that sound like a good use of tax money? http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/09/more-crony-socialism-obama-gives-737-million-to-pelosis-brother-in-laws-solar-firm/
Now with them phasing out coal plants not run by GE, with that kind of $ to watts ratio are americans going to get... i'd be deathly afraid as an American. Thank god we have fresh water from the mountains that doesn't get flouride added to it. Thank god we make enough electricity from hydro so we can sell it to the states. Thank god we dont have BS EPA agencies try to shut our power down due to false and unproven claims. The enviro laws are so strict down there that the green coal plants produce water /steam out of the plants, they use miles of filtering equipment yet EPA still shutting them down.

[zulutango]

The bigwigs behind solyndra were Obama's election team "bundlers" who raised millions behind the scenes to get him elected. They got to visit him several times a week at the WH while the deal was being set up. They re-wrote the terms of the signed contract to allow solyndra to default on a progress payment last December, while ignoring the info they had about the financial mess they were in.

[Spartacus]

Insight video on how people are camping out at wall street.

http://player.vimeo.com/video/30081785

[zulutango]

"How is anyone questioning why that group on the street should even be pissed? "

I wonder if that group you mention are those in the 49% who pay no federal income tax at all and want those 1% who pay 40% of the total, to pay even more? Maybe a flat tax would even things out a bit more? I know that when I worked OT and ended up loosing almost 60% in tax I decided that it wasn't worth the effort anymore.

[Death2Theft]

Very heartwarming, to see people donating to help people stay on the streets. I figured that the bankers are just waiting for the snow to freeze these people out, however with the donations it looks like that might not happen.

[taylor192]

I disagree. Our system as you so put it is based on freedom.
Socialism is not freedom. Having the rich support the poor is not freedom, its dependence.

I respect that you want the freedom to make stupid decisions, yet my taxes should not be used to subsidize your stupid decisions - as most post secondary education is subsidized.

[Meowjin]

Socialism is not freedom. Having the rich support the poor is not freedom, its dependence.

I respect that you want the freedom to make stupid decisions, yet my taxes should not be used to subsidize your stupid decisions - as most post secondary education is subsidized.

talking like your a top income earner :lol:

[Culverin]

I would just like to side track this matter for a moment here.

What Would Jesus Do?
Here's what I think.

1. Arm himself with a non-lethal but painful weapon.
2. Drive out the bankers with it.
3. Bankrupt the investment firms.
4. (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻


Not particularly relevant.
Unless you claim you're a right wing economy Christian (like myself).
In which case, you might reconsider which side you are on.


I'm just saying....


Please resume your regularly scheduled whatever it is...

[goo3]

All true.

But are they?

If that is the goal, and its trotted out everytime that someone brings upu Buffett, then people should be able to point out all the new companies that are innovating and creating new opportunity. BUT...

The gov't had to back 1/2 billion in loans to a solar panel manufacturer, and they went bust.

Yes, I am aware that it was to create green jobs, that may not have the usual returns that billionaires would look for.

If the billionaires are causing all this growth, and new investment, then the housing crisis should have been a blip in a graph, because the employment levels would be so low, that it wouldn't have happened. They've had 30 years of the money to let it trickle, but it hasn't. Open your eyes. It is sitting, at the top.


I think he's talking about entrepreneurs who are not yet billionaires looking to create opportunity in areas where the established players aren't interested or looking at: the next millionaires, billionaires, or even just small biz owners.

[MindBomber]

Fuck...americans are the richest country, and they can't even score some fucking healthcare out of the system.


Americans are the wealthiest country, because they are the greediest and perhaps most devoid of morals within the developed world, which in turn explains why their politicians are up in arms over the concept of a health care system replacing their health care cash grab.

[Meowjin]

seems like riot police have taken out 5-6 protests as i type this in various cities... intresting...

[Culverin]

Yeah, seems like there's a coordinated crackdown going on right now.
They are doing this in the dark without the presences of corporate media and when there are less people.

Boston protests got raided. What else went down? I can't track it all at once.

[Spartacus]

For those who aren't up to date with whats going on, you can read this.

Timeline of Occupy Wall Street - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Occupy_Wall_Street)

[Meowjin]

haha adbusters. Sweet vancouver main street hipsters.

[Death2Theft]

Not christian at all but I heard the only time Christ got violent with another man was when the "money changers" decided to sell sacraficial animals for some ritual but you could only buy these animals with a special coin, which was worth many times more than normal. Hence forcing people to over pay. Christ was so upset with this that he flipped over the mans tables and beat him with a cat of nine tails.
I would just like to side track this matter for a moment here.

What Would Jesus Do?
Here's what I think.

1. Arm himself with a non-lethal but painful weapon.
2. Drive out the bankers with it.
3. Bankrupt the investment firms.
4. (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻


Not particularly relevant.
Unless you claim you're a right wing economy Christian (like myself).
In which case, you might reconsider which side you are on.


I'm just saying....


Please resume your regularly scheduled whatever it is...

[StylinRed]

it is a bit odd isn't it how there isnt 24/7 coverage of this like the media does for other countries ;)


but the US is prepared if this really hits the fan since they built those "secret" concentration camps after 9/11 and invested in those elite riot dispersement weapons (like that microwave beam that causes unbearable pain or the targeted insanely high decible speakers)

[taylor192]

Americans are the wealthiest country, because they are the greediest and perhaps most devoid of morals within the developed world, which in turn explains why their politicians are up in arms over the concept of a health care system replacing their health care cash grab.
How little you understand...

Do you know many Americans that would benefit from universal healthcare actually oppose it? It doesn't make sense to us looking in, why would those without coverage or with lack luster coverage vote against universal health care? Especially since those same people are usually in the ~50% that pay no federal tax and wouldn't pay for this universal system. America was not built on those looking for others to pay their way, it was built on the "American dream" of earning it yourself. America was built on freedom, liberty, ... and they do not want something "universal" even if its to their detriment.

Those protesting on Wall Street are not the 99%, hell they probably aren't even the 50%.

[Gridlock]

How little you understand...

Do you know many Americans that would benefit from universal healthcare actually oppose it? It doesn't make sense to us looking in, why would those without coverage or with lack luster coverage vote against universal health care? Especially since those same people are usually in the ~50% that pay no federal tax and wouldn't pay for this universal system. America was not built on those looking for others to pay their way, it was built on the "American dream" of earning it yourself. America was built on freedom, liberty, ... and they do not want something "universal" even if its to their detriment.

Those protesting on Wall Street are not the 99%, hell they probably aren't even the 50%.

But here is how you get there. That system does not apply to all. If it were, there are a few banks that would have had a spectacular fall in 2008, and no one would be able to buy GM made crap.

Too big to fail would have been "spectacular crash".

I'm not saying I am with these people. I guess I am saying I understand why they are there.

And I totally get the stat that over 50% have paid no tax-and the aggravation that causes.

I guess I understand why they are there because the system is so screwed, people don't know what to do anymore.

[iEatClams]

Corporations are eliminating jobs and shipping them overseas. They offshore their profits and lobby for tax credits and loopholes that allow them to pay little to no tax. How can they expect the average person to support them?

The US model of supply side economics with their trickle down theory isn't working. Lower taxes, smaller governments and less government regulations lead to the current mess that the US is in. Companies have had lower taxes and increased their cash reserves but have not done any hiring.

These companies then blame it on uncertainty as to why they are not hiring. The real truth is that there is no demand for them to produce or hire more.

Demand side economics is where if consumers have a desire for a certain product, companies will try to produce it, and thus hire people that in turn will spin the economy.

Henry ford paid his workers well, and this allowed them to one day afford his cars.
If companies paid workers better with more people working, and the average person had more $, they would demand more goods and would ultimately help corporations.

[iEatClams]

I hope Canada follows in the footsteps of Scandanavian countries, where they have 100% literacy rates, high personal tax rates, rank high in competitiveness, spend shietloads on education and improve workers skills.

We should have corporations paying their fair share, and improving the majority, instead of improving the select few. The Norwegian Social Democratic government, with there Oil Fund (the world's largest), has over $570 Billion, compared to Alberta fund, which has $14 Billion with their massive Oil Sands.

But many right wingers wont allow this because they don't want Canada to become an even more "socialist" country. Look how the USA is turning out?

[Gridlock]

I hope Canada follows in the footsteps of Scandanavian countries, where they have 100% literacy rates, high personal tax rates, rank high in competitiveness, spend shietloads on education and improve workers skills.

We should have corporations paying their fair share, and improving the majority, instead of improving the select few. The Norwegian Social Democratic government, with there Oil Fund (the world's largest), has over $570 Billion, compared to Alberta fund, which has $14 Billion with their massive Oil Sands.

But many right wingers wont allow this because they don't want Canada to become an even more "socialist" country. Look how the USA is turning out?

Well, I for one don't want that. I like the balance we have, and don't want to see it disrupted, NDP style.

I have no problem with people earning, and working their fair share, with a healthy safety net, that is relied on as that, a safety net, not a hammock.

And apart from the peacenik hippies, I think most people frustrated in the US would be looking for just afair system where people can get ahead.

[taylor192]

I hope Canada follows in the footsteps of Scandanavian countries, where they have 100% literacy rates, high personal tax rates, rank high in competitiveness, spend shietloads on education and improve workers skills.
They also have very low immigration and very tight immigration.

How many people posting in this thread wouldn't be here if we had similar immigration rules?

Then remember we're on a car forum, how many of us wouldn't be able to afford our hobby if we lived there?

What's the point of being educated if I cannot get ahead? Scandanavian people have a greater sense of the "greater good" while North American attitudes are towards the "American dream" of individual success.

[gars]

Norway also only has a population of just under 5 million people. With such a large oil reserves, of course they can spend tons of money.

[Greenstoner]

Insight video on how people are camping out at wall street.

Right Here All Over (Occupy Wall St.) (http://player.vimeo.com/video/30081785)

1:42 , is that chick in the back topless ???


too bad she was showing her back only

[Ferra]

http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq25/ferra_photo/funny-protesting-in-America-unpatriotic.jpg

[goo3]

Corporations are eliminating jobs and shipping them overseas. They offshore their profits and lobby for tax credits and loopholes that allow them to pay little to no tax. How can they expect the average person to support them?

The US model of supply side economics with their trickle down theory isn't working. Lower taxes, smaller governments and less government regulations lead to the current mess that the US is in. Companies have had lower taxes and increased their cash reserves but have not done any hiring.

These companies then blame it on uncertainty as to why they are not hiring. The real truth is that there is no demand for them to produce or hire more.

Demand side economics is where if consumers have a desire for a certain product, companies will try to produce it, and thus hire people that in turn will spin the economy.

Henry ford paid his workers well, and this allowed them to one day afford his cars.
If companies paid workers better with more people working, and the average person had more $, they would demand more goods and would ultimately help corporations.

This is a pretty good and funny interview if you have time to watch it.

The Daily Show with Jon Stewart : Jennifer Granholm Extended Interview (http://watch.thecomedynetwork.ca/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart/exclusive-interviews/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart---jennifer-granholm-extended-interview/#clip537406)

[StylinRed]

^jon stewarts episode tonight about the protest coverage was great

[iEatClams]

Norway also only has a population of just under 5 million people. With such a large oil reserves, of course they can spend tons of money.


Sorry, let me clarify what I meant.

Norway has an Oil Fund, which is actually a Pension Fund, but unlike a regular pension fund, it gets money from oil profits, rather than pension contributions (CPP etc in Canada). What I'm implying is that Norway, as a more social country, doesn't allow oil corporations to rape the profits which mostly benefits the rich.

Alberta has a population of 3.7 million compared to 5 million, not that much significantly different, has again about $14 Billion where as Norway's fund is worth over $570 Billion.

[seakrait]

OT slightly: with OCCUPY VANCOUVER coming up this Saturday, anyone wonder what the sales of black balaclavas are like this week?

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

Insight video on how people are camping out at wall street.

Right Here All Over (Occupy Wall St.) (http://player.vimeo.com/video/30081785)

im sorry, but they look like a bunch of fucking degenerates.

[Ronin]

I don't think the protest will be violent but there's always a bunch of idiots that use these things as an excuse to cause trouble. If that happens, I'm hoping I get a bunch of pictures of the cops beating them senseless.

I don't necessarily agree with all this occupywallstreet stuff but if they're anything like the people that protested the Olympics, they don't deserve to be lumped in with the people wearing bandanas over their faces and smash windows. I took lots of pictures of the protests during the Olympics and talked to a lot of the protesters. I thought they were nice enough people even though we don't share any similar views on the Olympics and such.

[Nightwalker]

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/301201_10150848829560184_537145183_20768117_206553 8442_n.jpg

[Meowjin]

Celebrity Photos of the Week: Oct. 12 - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/arts/celebrity-photos/celebrity-photos-of-the-week-oct-12/article2197635/)

OMG LOL SCROLL THROUGH THE PHOTOS

[Meowjin]

Wall Street trader becomes a monk - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/3123516/Wall-Street-trader-becomes-a-monk.html)

[Death2Theft]

Obama is pro "tax the rich movement" yet the average knucklehead down there doesn't understand by rich he means individuals that make 125k+ a year. Thats not rich , thats the upper middle class that is supporting the service industry. Without them say bye bye to more jobs.
The truely rich are the ones hiding it all off shore, tax free investing it into third world countries that would gladly accept them building factories without tax/regulations/unions. The jobs it brings is more than enough for them.

[Gridlock]

Thought this was interesting, seeing as there was so much discussion on these people complaining about student loans.

http://www.collegescholarships.org/research/student-loans/

Have no idea of where he got the data, or its bias, but it seems to me to be an example of just one more "fuck you" step that people need to deal with to get ahead.

"Hey! You made it through our shitty public school system. Congratulations! You even did well. Now you'd like to get a good job, and to do so, would like to go to school. Good choice. Here's all the money you need, and we'll take it from you at some point at higher than normal interest. Oh! Yeah, tuition is expensive-but it will all be worth it, when you serve coffee, and can tell everyone why it represents the tears of the peasant workers with your arts degree"

[Death2Theft]

I hope it's not true but israel just got the green light from the US to attack Iran. This will happen within 2 weeks. Mass US troop assembly in kuwait and around the middle east.
Perfect time to throw a diversion at OWS? Last chance for Obama to plunge the country into war to delay the vote? Time will tell.

[bing]

Thought this was interesting, seeing as there was so much discussion on these people complaining about student loans.

The Student Loans Scheme: a Gateway Drug to Debt Slavery (http://www.collegescholarships.org/research/student-loans/)

Have no idea of where he got the data, or its bias, but it seems to me to be an example of just one more "fuck you" step that people need to deal with to get ahead.

"Hey! You made it through our shitty public school system. Congratulations! You even did well. Now you'd like to get a good job, and to do so, would like to go to school. Good choice. Here's all the money you need, and we'll take it from you at some point at higher than normal interest. Oh! Yeah, tuition is expensive-but it will all be worth it, when you serve coffee, and can tell everyone why it represents the tears of the peasant workers with your arts degree"

How many of these people who are in debt actually got decent grades or didn't take something useless? I am assuming that these are the sub par students or ones that got majors in art history, english, religious studies, or philosophy. In that case, I don't know how much people can sympathize with them. One of my cousins from the U.S. is looking for internships right now, and every single employer wants at a minimum a 3.0 GPA just to get an interview, which I think is actually very achievable for most people, yet it is surprising the number of people who graduate with mediocre grades. So the point is, college degrees shouldn't be treated as equal or as a guarantee of a decent job. People should seriously consider what their gonna major in or whether they should pursue a degree at all especially if they don't try. The banks didn't force them to take the loans.

[illicitstylz]

Occupy Wall Street Protesters Want Free College - YouTube


what is this.

I dont even.

[scottsman]

haha is there anymore of those interviews online?

[MindBomber]

what is this.

I dont even.

Some countries offer free post-secondary education, it's not that unreasonable. That will never happen in the United States though, and it shouldn't, their general population isn't intelligent enough to utilize it.

[Gridlock]

How many of these people who are in debt actually got decent grades or didn't take something useless? I am assuming that these are the sub par students or ones that got majors in art history, english, religious studies, or philosophy. In that case, I don't know how much people can sympathize with them. One of my cousins from the U.S. is looking for internships right now, and every single employer wants at a minimum a 3.0 GPA just to get an interview, which I think is actually very achievable for most people, yet it is surprising the number of people who graduate with mediocre grades. So the point is, college degrees shouldn't be treated as equal or as a guarantee of a decent job. People should seriously consider what their gonna major in or whether they should pursue a degree at all especially if they don't try. The banks didn't force them to take the loans.

What does that have to do with anything? I mention some information about how the student loan system has changed to become a money making machine off of students, and you talk about how they don't deserve the mention, because they didn't take what you want them to take.

I get, that job prospects for philosophy majors aren't the same for nursing, or business degrees. I'm there. BUT-regardless of what you take, people now are hearded into post-secondary. Something has shifted that mind frame in the population.

And I think, in today's world, you are going to have a hard time as a street smarts guy with life experience, sitting next to a guy with a degree. Why? Because if the guy doing the hiring is a grad, then he is going to respect his own.

But that even has nothing to do with the point of what I posted!

As I said before, I didn't know what to make of the wall streeters. I did research-very light reading, and I found some things that make me think. This is one of them. You have a group of people that keep bringing up their student loans.

Why? They are under water. Just the same as the housing crisis. People bought houses, under the assumption that they will always improve in value. People bought educations, assuming they would increase in value.

Yes-they made the choice, but come on, if you walk around all day not doing anything because it *may* not work, then you are going to be the homeless guy I call Shuffles in my neighborhood. He has gone through life not taking risk. He now smells.

They are pissed! I get it. I may not agree with every single protester. And the people that want to take them down can find video of that one guy spouting off about something that most people think is out to lunch, and they re-broadcast that video as a sign of the illegitimacy of the movement.

The rules changed on people. When you sign up for a mortgage, no one really knew that it was going to be sliced, and diced and sold off as an investment by banks 1000's of miles away to people you've never met. No one knew that. NO ONE outside the incestuous little banking community.

No one knew that it was going to stretch so tight, and so out of sight of reality, that one little change can bring it crashing down.

And no one knew, when they signed up for a student loan that the money was going to cycle around and line the pockets of everyone involved. All they saw was that they really didn't have a choice.

And no one knew that when there was a problem, the fix was going to be giving a huge sum of money to the guys that made the mistake.

Think the student loan problem is US only? Same thing happens right here.

[Gridlock]

Occupy Wall Street Protesters Want Free College - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syfKVgkLwEE&feature=player_embedded)


what is this.

I dont even.

Oh yeah...perfect example. Here's a guy! Quick, get the camera.

Yeah, and the guy doing the interview sits there and tries to make him look like an idiot. "Oh, the corp rates are the highest in the world"

Bullshit!

Yes, that is the rate, but how many companies keep money off shore?

And this whole thing that they are talking about is income inequality. It's real. Undisputed.

Read this: Income inequality in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_the_United_States)

And tell me its not a little convincing that the problem at least exists. Tell me that if the problem exists, what the solution is to get people to look at it.

Tell congress? They can't even decide to pay their bills in place of a chance for political posturing. A change in president is going to do it? That's what everyone "hoped" for in 2008, and guess what? He's a part of the same machine.

So they take to the streets.

Once again, I have proven that the protests are at least "legitimate".

[Nightwalker]

For the bailouts alone, why shouldn't people be protesting!?

[Death2Theft]

Because your name is herman cain ;)

[Hurricane]

Oh yeah...perfect example. Here's a guy! Quick, get the camera.

Yeah, and the guy doing the interview sits there and tries to make him look like an idiot. "Oh, the corp rates are the highest in the world"

Bullshit!

Yes, that is the rate, but how many companies keep money off shore?

And this whole thing that they are talking about is income inequality. It's real. Undisputed.

Read this: Income inequality in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_the_United_States)

And tell me its not a little convincing that the problem at least exists. Tell me that if the problem exists, what the solution is to get people to look at it.

Tell congress? They can't even decide to pay their bills in place of a chance for political posturing. A change in president is going to do it? That's what everyone "hoped" for in 2008, and guess what? He's a part of the same machine.

So they take to the streets.

Once again, I have proven that the protests are at least "legitimate".

OMG income inequality actually exists??? I am shocked, and upset beyond imagination. Here I was thinking everyone made the exact same salary as me. Well, you know what they say, fool me once...

Sits there and tries to make him look like an idiot?? Sign boy did it all on his own. The interviewer just confirmed his suspicion that the guy was an idiot. He didn't have to be, he just was. As are 95% of the other people camping on Wall Street (I am giving them a lot of credit at 5%)

Whats your point about companies keeping money offshore? All that does is put most of them on a level playing field with other industrialized nations.

So yes, they still pay the same tax or more than other companies around the world. They are not doing anything illegally.

Also...income inequality must exist. It has, does, and will continue to exist for the rest of eternity. How can you say that gives them a right to protest?

Where did all those hippy idiots get their fancy fixed gear bikes? ipods? clothes? I am sure its all grown on the soil they turned themselves around the outside of their hand built adobe mud huts right?

In fact, their lives are so comfortable and nice because of that jump in income inequality. Companies like Coke, Microsoft, Apple, Google etc. kept the USA from following the same path as the mighty USSR, and made a lot of people millionaires in the process as well.

71 percent of American economists believe the distribution of income in the US should be more equal

From your unsolicited homework; thanks teach.

I bet 100% of fortune 500 CEOs think income distribution should be more equal. That means 99% of people need to work harder, learn more, and become better at life and business. Not that it should be handed out like pez to every granola wearing Birkenstocks and a unkempt flavor saver.

All these self entitled homeless lookalikes, need to get jobs, and stfu.

How can they even afford to just hang out for weeks on the street? Half of them probably have wealthy parents who aren't willing to offer them 10 cents for their sh!t idea to sell hemp jewelry creations on the boardwalk. But they get enough support to comfortably spend their life complaining they don't get enough.

The beauty of living in a wealthy country with lots of successful businesses I guess.

[Gridlock]

OMG income inequality actually exists??? I am shocked, and upset beyond imagination. Here I was thinking everyone made the exact same salary as me. Well, you know what they say, fool me once...

Sits there and tries to make him look like an idiot?? Sign boy did it all on his own. The interviewer just confirmed his suspicion that the guy was an idiot. He didn't have to be, he just was. As are 95% of the other people camping on Wall Street (I am giving them a lot of credit at 5%)

Whats your point about companies keeping money offshore? All that does is put most of them on a level playing field with other industrialized nations.

So yes, they still pay the same tax or more than other companies around the world. They are not doing anything illegally.

Also...income inequality must exist. It has, does, and will continue to exist for the rest of eternity. How can you say that gives them a right to protest?

Where did all those hippy idiots get their fancy fixed gear bikes? ipods? clothes? I am sure its all grown on the soil they turned themselves around the outside of their hand built adobe mud huts right?

In fact, their lives are so comfortable and nice because of that jump in income inequality. Companies like Coke, Microsoft, Apple, Google etc. kept the USA from following the same path as the mighty USSR, and made a lot of people millionaires in the process as well.



From your unsolicited homework; thanks teach.

I bet 100% of fortune 500 CEOs think income distribution should be more equal. That means 99% of people need to work harder, learn more, and become better at life and business. Not that it should be handed out like pez to every granola wearing Birkenstocks and a unkempt flavor saver.

All these self entitled homeless lookalikes, need to get jobs, and stfu.

How can they even afford to just hang out for weeks on the street? Half of them probably have wealthy parents who aren't willing to offer them 10 cents for their sh!t idea to sell hemp jewelry creations on the boardwalk. But they get enough support to comfortably spend their life complaining they don't get enough.

The beauty of living in a wealthy country with lots of successful businesses I guess.

Everyone keeps talking at a micro level(this guy, that guy-FUCK-this one has an ipod! Get him) when you need to look at a MACRO level.

The anger in the discussion of income inequality is not the fact that you make more than your neighbor. It's the systemic push where the top 1% has MORE to share among themselves than the EVER have before.

This has happened since the 70's. And what happened to make the change?

Well, for starters, the Nixon shock changed the game. Then they started with the trickle down economics.

GOING TO MAKE THIS BOLD HERE: EVERY STATISTIC HAS SHOWN ITS NOT FUCKING TRICKLING.

It's not about counting how many protesters have a fucking ipod, and its not about the fringe that want communism.

The majority---MAJORITY want to play in a fair system. Yeah, you work hard, you get ahead. That's great-they just want a straight line. Right now, the line on the curve is bent towards the top(in an exponential fashion) where the hard work is so front loaded for the poor that they stop.

[Spartacus]

You have got to be an idiot, if you don't think there's anything wrong with the big banks taking huge risk; knowing theres little to no consequences and that they'll just get a bailout from the american people. Not to mention the big companies have pretty much bought out congress - democrats and republican.

Why is it that congress is removing regulations against big companys more than ever and turning a blind eye, but when it comes down regulating the people, the goverment loves monitor you and violate your charter of rights and freedom. New flash, Congress isn't working for the people anymore, they're working for the big companies that feeds them. The system is severely broken, and needs to be changed.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[taylor192]

For the bailouts alone, why shouldn't people be protesting!?

Because they don't understand what a bailout is. The bailouts were loans, not handouts as many protesting seem to think while they stick their hands out.

[taylor192]

Right now, the line on the curve is bent towards the top(in an exponential fashion) where the hard work is so front loaded for the poor that they stop.

You're right about the curve being bent, you're wrong about it being hard and why it is front loaded.

It is not hard, its actually easier than ever to get ahead today than anytime else in history. We have tons of social programs, easy access to credit (if you use it for good, not waste it on iCrap), great education systems, subsidized education, ... and the economic model of eBay, iStore, ... easily allows the little guy to get in on the action.

So why does it seem hard? This also answers why its front loaded. People just just fucking lazy and entitled. It happens as societies advance and people stop moving for a better life and demand one be provided for them where they are. This bends the curve, cause most blame the system and heavily weigh down one end creating a front loaded curve.

I went from bankrupt at 18, to making 6 figures before I was 30 (which puts me in the 5%, one day hopefully the 1%). I went from worrying if I'll make next month's rent and studying hard to keep my scholarships, to having enough put away in my RRSPs to fund my retirement before I was 30yo and buying my first house at 25yo. It was easy, there's was tons of help available to me.

[SkinnyPupp]

My Soapbox Advice to the OWS Movement and then some « blog maverick (http://blogmaverick.com/2011/10/14/my-soapbox-advice-to-the-ows-movement-and-then-some/)

[taylor192]

My Soapbox Advice to the OWS Movement and then some « blog maverick (http://blogmaverick.com/2011/10/14/my-soapbox-advice-to-the-ows-movement-and-then-some/)

I absolutely agree with #4 and would take it further. You only have to visit the Business forum here to find wannabe day traders who are not looking for any value in buying companies, just patterns of ups/downs. This shouldn't be allowed, nevermind taxed.

This would also fix his point on executive compensation. My own company is guilty of doing things to manipulate stock price, cause sometimes even hitting targets means the price dips cause market expectation was to exceed it. If we remove speculation from the market then we won't get these wild swings and companies won't try and play games to influence stock price. Win win.

The problem with point #1 is that many people don't actually own common stock. I don't. I'm diversified via funds, and admittedly I only care if the fund meets the targets I need for retirement. It would be nice for me to say I'd take the high road and buy stock in well run companies - yet those companies aren't making the 6-7% my retirement plans require.

So back to something I've repeated too often: how do I make 6-7% gains in a market with a GDP increase of 2-3%? Someone has to lose for me to beat the market, especially by that kind of margin. Of the 99%, ~40% still have defined pensions which require those gains or they become ponzi schemes, and then there's people like me with self managed retirement plans that need the same. I'll guess there's at least 60% of the 99% that would be very unhappy with their retirement plans being cut in half by accepting 2-3% gains.

---

A better example many here can probably relate to: how many here shop at Whole Foods vs cheaper grocery stores? how many shop at Walmart? Whole Foods pays their employees a livable wage with benefits and cares about the products on the shelves - yet the food costs much more. Walmart tries to keep employees part time to avoid paying them benefits which keeps costs down. I'm willing to bet most here aren't willing to take that extra hit to their pocket book to support good local jobs - so why are we protesting wall street when we aren't even looking out for those in our own backyard?

Or another example: how many shop across the border to save money? Not paying their fair share of tax here, and not supporting local jobs here.

I shop at IGA and picked up stuff at Point Roberts today. Are my decisions any better than these CEOs we're criticizing?

[Carl Johnson]

Kevin O'Leary vs Chris Hedges

Occupy Wall Street - Chris Hedges shuts down CBC Kevin O'Leary - YouTube

[optiblue]

Wow was that really CBC? sounded more like FOX indeed!
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[Carl Johnson]

Wow was that really CBC? sounded more like FOX indeed!
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

Apparently Kevin got into shit afterward from CBC for his name calling. But this is not the first time he crossed the line and won't the last that's for sure.

[Meowjin]

http://www.revscene.net/forums/526241-fucked-up-shit-what-makes-you-laugh-nws-1114.html#post7614579

I'll leave this hear... fucktard.

[taylor192]

http://www.revscene.net/forums/526241-fucked-up-shit-what-makes-you-laugh-nws-1114.html#post7614579

I'll leave this hear... fucktard.

I'll put it in context here. I just made a comment, you brought the fight over this:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s320x320/310637_2401946404850_1136777814_3897571_1123034735 _n.jpg

There's some great posts above, not just mine. You'd be better off if you understood them and replied to them instead of head hunting my sarcastic comments cause you don't like my opinion. My opinion won't change, so stop wasting your time - convince the rest, yet good luck with that.

and I'm willing to bet you shop at Walmart and across the border, at least I'm honest about being a part of the problem and not just sitting with my hand out. You might try doing the same.

[SkinnyPupp]

:Popcorn

[Ronin]

So disorganized. Took them 2 hours to come to a consensus that microphone and speakers are better than yelling.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[StylinRed]

Because they don't understand what a bailout is. The bailouts were loans, not handouts as many protesting seem to think while they stick their hands out.

didnt some companies default on their bailouts

and others used govt loans to payoff their bailout (kind of like using credit cars to pay off other credit cards)

etc

[Hondaracer]

Occupy Vancouver full of people drinking Starbucks while texting on iPhones

Oh the irony
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[Meowjin]

I'll put it in context here. I just made a comment, you brought the fight over this:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s320x320/310637_2401946404850_1136777814_3897571_1123034735 _n.jpg

There's some great posts above, not just mine. You'd be better off if you understood them and replied to them instead of head hunting my sarcastic comments cause you don't like my opinion. My opinion won't change, so stop wasting your time - convince the rest, yet good luck with that.

and I'm willing to bet you shop at Walmart and across the border, at least I'm honest about being a part of the problem and not just sitting with my hand out. You might try doing the same.

Go fuck yourself you piece of shit, if you cannot handle an off the cuff comment without ranting and following my posts around you need to take a timeout.


-Maj

[Hondaracer]

Majin you're Greek aren't you? Seem to be following in your countrymen's footsteps..
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[Harvey Specter]

Real Time with Bill Maher (10-14-11) - "We are the 1%" Protest Signs [Occupy Wall Street] - YouTube

[V4NC1TY]

America done fucked it gooooood

and i thought this was a discussion, not an argument :drama:

[minoru_tanaka]

I get, that job prospects for philosophy majors aren't the same for nursing, or business degrees. I'm there.

Everybody picks on philosophy majors.
Karl Icahn
Carl Icahn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Icahn)
George Soros
George Soros - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_soros)

Come at me Taylor!

[Meowjin]

Majin you're Greek aren't you? Seem to be following in your countrymen's footsteps..
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

by being overworked and being paid too little?

South Koreans Put In Most Hours - NYTimes.com (http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/12/s-koreans-put-in-most-hours/)

look who's number 2.

[Ronin]

Just got home. What a silly protest...so many people that don't understand what they're protesting. The place was filled with irony from the girl with the Marc Jacobs bag claiming she can't afford to go to school or the guy talking about income inequality while holding a venti frappuchino.

The best was when the organizers asked if anyone had wi-fi (they mean a phone data plan with tethering...) to help some media folks under the big tree and at least a third of the crowd nodded or put up their hands to volunteer their $30 monthly option.

This simply doesn't work here. I sort of understand in the US where the banking crisis cost people their homes and they can't afford proper medical care but here?

[Meowjin]

i dont understand why people gotta complain in Canada. We live very good lives here. except it's expensive to live here, thats all.

[Phozy]

We got everything in Canada.

Thing is, some people in the U.S understand what they're protesting about and they want change, but i bet over 75% are just there for shits and giggles, and say they want change, but they are still spending money here and there.
As mentioned, some of them are holding starbucks, subway, LOL, yet no income?
No shit, you don't know how to save.

Then theres the problem where the government doesnt know how to put their money at the right places.

Eg . ) Building a multi-million dollar projectile that will take down future terrorist attack planes in new york? :facepalm:

[Ronin]

i dont understand why people gotta complain in Canada. We live very good lives here. except it's expensive to live here, thats all.

Yep. In general, a large percentage of the crowd did not seem to be experiencing much financial hardship. I saw plenty of $6 coffees, iPhones, and expensive clothes.

They're much the same sort of crowd as the Olympic protestors...people trying to account for their white guilt of being well off and healthy as so many around the world suffer. They claim they want to make a difference but in reality, they just want to feel good about themselves. Loads of hipsters...even more rambling weirdos.

There was an AWESOME :nyan: sign that said "WE ARE THE NYAN NYAN PERCENT!" that just made my day.

[bing]

Everybody picks on philosophy majors.
Karl Icahn
Carl Icahn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Icahn)
George Soros
George Soros - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_soros)

Come at me Taylor!


Great comparison :facepalm:

How many people are going to become Karl Icahn's or George Soros'.
How many people can even get into an Ivey like Princeton or competitive school like LSE ?

[gars]

by being overworked and being paid too little?

South Koreans Put In Most Hours - NYTimes.com (http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/12/s-koreans-put-in-most-hours/)

look who's number 2.

So true - Greeks work hard - they just don't like to pay taxes. Too much stuff happening under the table to get around paying taxes.

[bing]

So true - Greeks work hard - they just don't like to pay taxes. Too much stuff happening under the table to get around paying taxes.

"Either a very different means of calculating "work" is involved, or the numbers are about as reliable as the Greeks' annual tax filings (or reported state budgets)"

[minoru_tanaka]

Great comparison :facepalm:

How many people are going to become Karl Icahn's or George Soros'.
How many people can even get into an Ivey like Princeton or competitive school like LSE ?

Thanks for responding Taylor.

ps Taylor would not spell Ivy wrong

edit btw how many UBC B. Comm grads become bank tellers?

[CorneringArtist]

Just caught up on the news with the sympathy protests. Portugal and Spain I think can justify the protests, but HK and Vancouver? Am I missing something here, or are the hipsters coming out to bitch they can't get jobs with their arts degrees and daily 5 dollar decaf triple foam chai latte with the caramel swirl?

[Ronin]

Because income inequality is high in HK apparently? Probably close to the US? Maybe even worse?

Canada is actually on the lower end of income inequality.

[CorneringArtist]

Because income inequality is high in HK apparently? Probably close to the US?

Makes a little more sense now if that's true, but Vancouver's protest is full of ironing based on observations made here.

[Culverin]

I suck at trying to explain things, so please bear with me here.

Vancouver isn't necessarily there because we were hit hard.
Even if Vancouver got massively big, I think it's quite legitimate as a sign of solidarity. There were plenty of 1%ers in New York. But they aren't too jaded to understand that they lucked out and had advantages within a broken system.

Just because I stand with the poor doesn't mean I would fake it and throw my sim card back into a beater phone, or wear my painting clothes to a protest. It actually lends a lot more legitimacy to the protest if you are dressed nicely and well spoken and literate. If it truly was just a bunch of pot head hippies that went to the protests, the world would just ignore them.


Does that make any sense at all?

[hillmar]

The way I understood it was it was a day of support for the people doing the wall street protest. I really don't feel Vancouver is even close to what's going on in wall street since most of the few extremely wealthy living here accumulated their wealth somewhere else. Listen to a interview with msnbc with Michael Moore and what he said was the rich got extremely rich while the workers got the slip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zudb9L4hStg

[bing]

Thanks for responding Taylor.

ps Taylor would not spell Ivy wrong

edit btw how many UBC B. Comm grads become bank tellers?

you quoted a reply that was made to my original remark is why I responded. I don't care that I made a simple spelling error.

[SFUguy]

did anyone hear the native girl who rapped on stage talking about rats and that she's crazy?

[CorneringArtist]

Not sure if this was posted, a buddy of mine on FB found this Calvin & Hobbes comic that explains the issue here, sort of.
http://c1redgreenandblueorg.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/files/2011/10/calvin_and_hobbes_explain_occupy_wall_street.jpg

[taylor192]

didnt some companies default on their bailouts

and others used govt loans to payoff their bailout (kind of like using credit cars to pay off other credit cards)

etc

Did they? or didn't they? You don't seem to now, so why are you criticizing?

[bing]

Because income inequality is high in HK apparently? Probably close to the US? Maybe even worse?

Canada is actually on the lower end of income inequality.

You're absolutely right, HK is worse than even the US.

Source: http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DATASTATISTICS/Resources/table2_7.pdf

Pretty much seems like all countries experience this type of issue.

[taylor192]

Everybody picks on philosophy majors.
Karl Icahn
Carl Icahn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Icahn)
George Soros
George Soros - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_soros)

Come at me Taylor!

For what? if you want to take a philosophy degree hopefully you know the odds of becoming successful in that field, which you'll agree are slim, not impossible. Just don't join the 99% saying the system was stacked against you, cause you made the choice.

I was bankrupt when I went to school, so my degree selection was 100% based on systems/computer engineers were in high demand and paid very well. I'd rather be an architect, yet its a very hard field to be successful, like philosophy, so I didn't make that choice.

[taylor192]

Because income inequality is high in HK apparently? Probably close to the US? Maybe even worse?

Canada is actually on the lower end of income inequality.

Yep, yet our income equality has bee increasing at a faster rate than the US. If that continues, we will catch them in a few decades.

All you have to do is look around Vancouver to see the inequality, this city has perhaps the biggest inequality I've seen of all Canadians cities, and investor class immigration isn't helping matters.

[taylor192]

"Either a very different means of calculating "work" is involved, or the numbers are about as reliable as the Greeks' annual tax filings (or reported state budgets)"
LOL Love it!

[SkinnyPupp]

I posted this in the other thread that popped up for some reason, so I'll repost it here

CHARTS: Here's What The Wall Street Protesters Are So Angry About... (http://www.businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-are-so-angry-about-2011-10?op=1)

[zulutango]

Yeh....Moore himself is a multi-millionaire who even owns stock in the companies he smears. How about volunteering more of your income to the IRS and put your money where your big mouth is if you actually believe the BS you spew?

[Culverin]

Shit got real in Madrid.

La Puerta del Sol llena por la protesta del 15O - YouTube

[V4NC1TY]

MSNBC on NYPD Police Brutality during Occupy Wall Street Lawrence O'donnell with "The Last Word" - YouTube

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lt47hhoiYI1qg1juko1_500.jpg

[Manic!]

Yeh....Moore himself is a multi-millionaire who even owns stock in the companies he smears.

Whats wrong with that?

[cressydrift]

Saw this on my feed,

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/312760_10150313136391642_622706641_8102371_4030419 83_n.jpg

[StylinRed]

Did they? or didn't they? You don't seem to now, so why are you criticizing?

:facepalm:

[Ronin]

Yep, yet our income equality has bee increasing at a faster rate than the US. If that continues, we will catch them in a few decades.

All you have to do is look around Vancouver to see the inequality, this city has perhaps the biggest inequality I've seen of all Canadians cities, and investor class immigration isn't helping matters.

I guess our affluent areas are more...affluent, sort of but I really don't think that's the case and it definitely isn't an elite 1% here. If you mean the shrinking middle class, then yes, I sort of agree there but either way...things just simply aren't that bad here. Some people might have a tougher time earning a living but at least they didn't get screwed by the banking crisis and can go to the hospital when they break their faces.

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lt47hhoiYI1qg1juko1_500.jpg

I LOL'ed.

[taylor192]

I posted this in the other thread that popped up for some reason, so I'll repost it here

CHARTS: Here's What The Wall Street Protesters Are So Angry About... (http://www.businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-are-so-angry-about-2011-10?op=1)

I doubt most of them are educated enough to understand these charts. This is the most interesting chart, cause its looked as a negative, yet why? When adjusted for inflation, we make about the same as we did 5 decades ago. That's what should happen, cause if wages are more than inflation, then inflation just catches up as people have more money to spend, and thus spend it.

http://static5.businessinsider.com/image/4bbcb53d7f8b9a2e1beb0c00-547/after-adjusting-for-inflation-average-hourly-earnings-havent-increased-in-50-years.jpg

[taylor192]

I guess our affluent areas are more...affluent, sort of but I really don't think that's the case and it definitely isn't an elite 1% here.
Doesn't matter what you think, the stats speak for themselves. If we continue the same pace of inequality increases, we'll eclipse the US in a few decades.

Income inequality rising quickly in Canada - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/economy-lab/daily-mix/income-inequality-rising-quickly-in-canada/article2163938/)

Canada’s Gini index hit 0.320 in the late 2000s from 0.293 in the mid-1990s. During the same period, the United States’ Gini index rose to 0.378 from 0.361.