[legalaction]

I signed a purchase agreement with Regency Infiniti and put 1000 dollar deposit. By the time I signed it, I was not acknowledged that the deposit was nonrefundable, nor was it written on the agreement. They did not give me the copy of the agreement either. Several days later, I changed my mind and decide not buying the vehicle. Their manager told me that the deposit was not refundable.

When I requested the proof, I was presented with a purchase agreement with a hand-written "DEPOSIT NONREFUNDABLE" on the right bottom corner of the agreement. I was told by the manager that I had to either purchase the vehicle or another vehicle, or give up the deposit. Later on, I called the salesman who was helping me, and he said that he did not know the term exist. Also, he said his manager signed and wrote everything after I signed. Both the conversation with the salesman and the manager was recorded by me. Below is a picture of the altered contract. I blocked my personal information and price.
http://www.revscene.net/forums/attachments/forum173/8328d1317920449-pa.jpg

I have filed my complaint on VSA and BBB. Now I am going to take this to court. I can not believe that they risk the crime of forging documents just to get this deal done. What would they not do then? Please beware of their scams. 　

A bulletin by VSA regarding the deposits can be found here:

http://www.mvsabc.com/documents/blt-deposits-fnlJun2308Issue14_000.pdf


I would have asked for a copy of the agreement before I left that same day.
If it was me, I would point out the fact that I did not sign or initial to acknowledge the non-refundable deposit.

Next time maybe I would.

I said the exactly the same thing. But Rick Kingdon still refused to give me my money back. He said " it was a legally binding contract, VSA will acknowledge it. You can go anywhere you like. VSA or go to court, I am not giving you the deposit back." Can you believe it?

If you go to Regency Infiniti and put down a deposit, chances are that no matter what kind of agreement you sign and no matter you get your copy or not, they will make you have a hard time getting it back. Because even if VSA notifies them about your complaint, they can just give you back you money and there is no more punishment for them. When punishment is small and profit is high, people can risk committing crimes.

Do not even give your credit card number to them. They can charge you money and say you agreed on it verbally and refuse giving the money back to you. Then you have to go through the same process as I have done. Just be careful. Here is a story posted in #171, and it confirms my conjecture on these individuals. They do have the gut to do this even if the evidence is against them:


We go back and find David once more and ask him to show us the paper Tim signed. David gets his fat ass up from his desk with a smug look on his face like this is a waste of everyone's time. To our amazement, it takes David about 10-15 minutes to get back to us. We can see he found the paper, he's holding it in his hand. So wtf? Finally, he mopes back to his desk and shows us the paper. On the very bottom of the form, the salesman has circled and highlighted a hand written message that says:
"NOTHING PROMISED"
So at this point, I'm thinking in my head "Fuck you asshole, I just fucking caught you". I ask him point blank "Are you going to give us back the deposit or not?". Get this, he says "No." :seriously:


In the recorded conversation with the salesman, when I asked that salesperson "when did you write down 'DEPOSIT NONREFUNDABLE?'", he first said "It is not written, it's been verbally told you" while in fact he did not. Then I said "you never told me the deposit was nonrefundable, right?", he refrained and said "no, I did not". I then asked, "then who wrote the "DEPOSIT NONREFUNDABLE " on the agreement?" He said " I...seriously have no idea".

Rick Kingdon explained this by saying that the salesman tends to forget, as they have too many customers and too many deals to keep track of. I guess Rick Kingdon is also good at forgetting what is legal and what is not. I will wait for VSA's investigation on these people who have amnesia. It is very contagious in Regency Infiniti. Maybe they need a doctor instead of a lawyer.

Rick Kingdon's public webpage on LinkedIn:
Rick Kingdon | LinkedIn (http://www.linkedin.com/in/rickkingdon)

Notice how he claimed himself as "Reputation for integrity, teamwork, results achievement and exceptional people skills." And his specialty includes " marketing strategy development". Probably he has developed this forging-threatening strategy, he should get a patent for that. But let me ask you Mr. Kingdon, do you expect to win money by bluffing all the way on a poker table? Man, you should "Know your limit, play safe".

There is no such thing as a non-refundable deposit in BC in auto sales. The only thing that exists along those lines would be known as a partial payment. You will have no problem getting VSA to deal with this.

Not sure why a big company like regency wouldn't be aware of this....


3 personal friends of mine (different age, demographic etc.) each went to Regency Toyota, Lexus and Nissan.

All 3 had a very bad experience. Regency isn't what they used to be.

i had some family members look into regency nissan / toyota.
thanks for the heads up, they just lost a couple of customers.
good luck with the case !

bf took his car to regency infiniti for service and he told them specifically not to wash his car...

we came back the next day to see that the car is all washed and we found that the mufflers were off (one was lower than the other) and the front bumper on the left has been hit and they tried to fix and realign it without telling us and trying to hide it from us.

never great encounters with regency infinity :mad:

I am glad that I did not buy the car from them now. Who knows what they had done to it.

Just found this: http://www.mvsabc.com/documents/blt-deposits-fnlJun2308Issue14_000.pdf

Lol all that work for nothing, it's already been summarized by VSA -_-;

Search "Understanding deposits" and "the sales transaction" from this page on VSA's website: Vehicle Buying Tips from The Motor Vehicle Sales Authority of British Columbia (http://www.mdcbc.com/buying-tips.htm#understanding)


I cannot believe that this is still going on...At first I thought, oh well, this guy will make a little noise and get back what's rightfully his. Now that I'm reading more and more, I am nothing but frustrated with these [SLEAZY business tactics. As someone mentioned before, dealerships don't make a living off withholding deposits...No, they certainly don't, but holding a deposit certainly helps pay the bills.

These guys not only have horrible business ethics, but clearly their customer service is abysmal. I wish they could foresee the consequences of their actions because I truly hope that their business becomes negatively affected by this situation.

As some of you know, I've been recently searching for an Infiniti vehicle myself and have been dealing with a particular salesman over the phone. He's been keeping me up to date by telling me which cars are in stock. The next time I hear from him, I will ensure that I tell him that my business will not be conducted with their dealership.


From VSA Buying Tips: Understanding deposits


Be sure you understand the deposit, return and exchange policies of the dealership before you sign any documents. Remember, the term deposit can be used to describe quite different things. It is an industry best practice to be sure that the terms of any deposit are clear and in writing.

Depending on when it is taken in a transaction, a deposit may be a separate agreement for a variety of services. It could be an agreement for services to:

Hold a vehicle for a period of time
Locate a vehicle from another dealer
Bring in a vehicle from the manufacturer, and/or
Arrange financing for a vehicle
Be sure you know what your deposit is for.

If the deposit is part of an agreement to purchase a specific vehicle and all the terms and conditions are known, it may actually be a partial payment or down payment.

The terms and conditions of giving a deposit or partial payment must be clear and unambiguous. The terms and conditions must be provided to you. At a minimum, if a deposit is taken a motor dealer must:

Clearly distinguish in writing a deposit from a partial payment or down payment. They are not the same.
Clearly state in writing the purpose for which the deposit is taken
Clearly state the amount of the deposit in writing
Clearly state in writing when the deposit will or will not be refundable
Clearly state in writing any other terms and conditions, such as whether a deposit will be apply towards the purchase price of a vehicle
Provide you with a copy of the deposit agreement
If there is a written purchase agreement, the law requires motor dealers to detail the terms and conditions under which a deposit may and may not be refundable. Even when a deposit is stated to be non-refundable, there may be situations when a deposit will be refundable; such as when a dealership cannot deliver on its promise.

If you follow these rules, I think both the buyers and sellers' rights are protected by VSA. However, I still do not understand why they are not punished enough when they fail to comply. Especially in the case when all evidence is against them.

VSA comliance officer has made her decision. She said it was not recommended to use this kind of purchase agreement. All they can do is to issue a warning to the dealership, try to educate them and give them a copy of the recommended deposit contract. She refused to answer my question on whether this is a legal contract. She said it was "not recommended". There is nothing more they can do.

So beware, they can easily get away with this type of behavior. They will keep using this as a tactic to trap the customers. And for those who keep on using these tactics, you win. Now I know why this happens a lot. A good lesson to learn.



If you want to help others understand deposits, help others understand the rights and obligations in auto sales, or prevent others from being victims of dealerships like Regency Infiniti, please use your google account and press "+1", or use your FACEBOOK account and press "like".

UPDTAE:

1. I got an official letter from VSA yesterday which says they have resolved the issue. The dealership has refunded me the money.

2. I bought the same vehicle from another Infiniti dealership 3 weeks ago. There are two things I like about them more than Regency: first, they made it very clear that the deposit is refundable; second, for similar price as I got from Regency, I got the technology package. The price difference is about $3000. So Regency sucks in both customer service and price.

3. Any dealership/individual could do this to their customers. They just want to screw you although they know they will give you the refund. They can do this because the punishment from VSA is too small. So do not put down any deposit even when they say it is refundable.

I want to thank people here on RS. You guys make this process not a hard time but rather entertaining. Both those who supported/helped me and who tried to argue with me. I hope this thread can give local consumers more information. Especially for new immigrants and international students. I might do a Chinese version of this on Vansky.

[haulin oats]

technically, if you signed an agreement to purchase a vehicle, you are legally obligated to purchase said vehicle. Best case scenario, you lose the $1000. Worst case scenario, you are forced to purchase the vehicle for the agreed upon amount.

[fliptuner]

http://www.revscene.net/forums/634647-backing-out-dealership-sales-contract.html

[CP.AR]

When I bought my car from BJ BMW, they made it very clear to me that my $1000 deposit was refundable in the event that I want to back out within the next week or so.

if it was hand written in, and it dosen't have your initials on it, I'd say that term that it's non-refundable can be ignored

[legalaction]

technically, if you signed an agreement to purchase a vehicle, you are legally obligated to purchase said vehicle. Best case scenario, you lose the $1000. Worst case scenario, you are forced to purchase the vehicle for the agreed upon amount.

Thanks, but that is only true when the nonrefundable terms are presented to me and are agreed on. Even when it is agreed on, they have to prove that they did incur the monetary cost by holding the vehicle for several days. Also, there is not even a VIN number on the agreement, only a stock number. How can this determine which vehicle we agreed on?

Now it is a forged document. It is not about the economic consequence now, it is a CRIME to forge documents.

[legalaction]

When I bought my car from BJ BMW, they made it very clear to me that my $1000 deposit was refundable in the event that I want to back out within the next week or so.

if it was hand written in, and it dosen't have your initials on it, I'd say that term that it's non-refundable can be ignored

Thanks. That is also what I thought before I went there. But now it is very clear that they do not want to ignore it, nor can I. I have to sue them under criminal act because I can prove that it was forged.

[Redlines_Daily]

Good luck, sounds like you will win if info is hand written and you recorded the conversations like you said.

[legalaction]

Good luck, sounds like you will win if info is hand written and you recorded the conversations like you said.

Thank you and I hope the consumers who had experienced this should unite here. Originally I just wanted my money back, now I would rather spend some money to put this criminal in jail. If any lawyer is interested in this case please contact me. Reporters from any media are also welcomed.

If we do not do this, these guys will continue doing this to their customers. First they rip us off by higher prices than our neighbor, then they lobbied a higher HST for used cars to gain some advantage, now they even dare to forge documents and threaten us to buy their products. Just because they believe that we are weak and stupid.

[Jgresch]

There is no such thing as a non-refundable deposit in BC in auto sales. The only thing that exists along those lines would be known as a partial payment. You will have no problem getting VSA to deal with this.

Not sure why a big company like regency wouldn't be aware of this....

[Redlines_Daily]

^ they are aware, they just want to keep the $1000! :Pbjt::Pbjt:

[tiger_handheld]

+1 for the little guy -- keep us posted.

[PJ]

Keep us posted.. will subscribe to this thread :fullofwin:

[legalaction]

There is no such thing as a non-refundable deposit in BC in auto sales. The only thing that exists along those lines would be known as a partial payment. You will have no problem getting VSA to deal with this.

Not sure why a big company like regency wouldn't be aware of this....

VSA will only give them a warning and they will probably just give the deposit back to me after a long time. I am not concerned with getting my money back now. Forging document is a crime. Presenting and Pretending an illegal document as legal is also considered as forging document in court. Just consider this: what happens if you forged 50 pieces of $20 bill?

[fliptuner]

So it's the principle and not the money for you?

[legalaction]

^ they are aware, they just want to keep the $1000! :Pbjt::Pbjt:

Or, they want to sell me the vehicle by intimidating me and make more profit than $1000 from it.

[legalaction]

+1 for the little guy -- keep us posted.

Yes I definitely will. Glad to see so many supporters. Then I know I am not alone.

[WHEYsted]

strong username to post content to join date ratio.

[Redlines_Daily]

strong username to post content to join date ratio.

:suspicious: what

[legalaction]

So it's the principle and not the money for you?

I do care about money but in this case it is about the bottom line. I am used to them lying to me about their cost, the popularity of the product, or other lies. I feel compassionate to car salesman on that and I do not want to make any stereotyped comments on them. But forging documents and threatening your customers? What would be your action if you were me?

[Jgresch]

VSA will only give them a warning and they will probably just give the deposit back to me after a long time. I am not concerned with getting my money back now. Forging document is a crime. Presenting and Pretending an illegal document as legal is also considered as forging document in court. Just consider this: what happens if you forged 50 pieces of $20 bill?

Actually it depends, they might be fined, or the person who forged the document could have his licence revoked. I get emails every month about stuff like this that has happened and what VSA has done to fix it.

If what your posting is truthful, you will get you rmoney back. I am unsure how far anything else will go as far as legal action because I don't have much background there.

I wish you luck and will stay away from Regency :)

[v.Rossi]

Fuck Regency Infiniti, Fuck Gar Purdy, Nick Andrews and Ashick(sp?). If you buy a car with such an expensive price tag, I'd suggest you go elsewhere. Any other Infiniti/Nissan dealership, you deserve better service than those dipshit cocksucking monkeys working there.

Good luck, I hope I hope I hope you win and more.

The service department is good in my books though, I have nothing bad to say about them.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[GLOW]

i dont suppose you can post that manager's name here eh?

in case he goes to another dealership i want to avoid this guy. it's doubtful i'd ever purchase an infiniti b/c i'm poor :okay:

[Jgresch]

Fuck Regency Infiniti, Fuck Gar Purdy, Nick Andrews and Ashick(sp?). If you buy a car with such an expensive price tag, I'd suggest you go elsewhere. Any other Infiniti/Nissan dealership, you deserve better service than those dipshit cocksucking monkeys working there.

Good luck, I hope I hope I hope you win and more.

The service department is good in my books though, I have nothing bad to say about them.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

pm'ing you..... intrigued by this :)

[!Yaminashi]

pm'ing you..... intrigue by this :)

FOBgresch?:suspicious:

[StylinRed]

This actually happens a lot


there was a report on CBC a few weeks ago from Quebec where a lady wasn't given her deposit back and she took it to the media and the dealership finally caved in

when cbc asked the bbb apparently that particular dealership had a lot of the same complaints

that dealership was later firebombed by someone (why the news went national)

[legalaction]

Actually it depends, they might be fined, or the person who forged the document could have his licence revoked. I get emails every month about stuff like this that has happened and what VSA has done to fix it.

If what your posting is truthful, you will get you rmoney back. I am unsure how far anything else will go as far as legal action because I don't have much background there.

I wish you luck and will stay away from Regency :)

Thank you for your information. So what VSA has done before in this situation? Can those people really prove that the document is forged? Revoking license is only a punishment for professional misconduct. They will still get away from a criminal charge of forging documents. That is why they have the gut to do this I guess because they know this is OK.

[Greenstoner]

Thanks for the insight.. i will not purchase car from this dealership in future if i come across it

" 1 rat shit ruins the whole congee " chinese saying :P

[SumAznGuy]

Fuck Regency Infiniti, Fuck Gar Purdy, Nick Andrews and Ashick(sp?). If you buy a car with such an expensive price tag, I'd suggest you go elsewhere. Any other Infiniti/Nissan dealership, you deserve better service than those dipshit cocksucking monkeys working there.

Good luck, I hope I hope I hope you win and more.

The service department is good in my books though, I have nothing bad to say about them.

This is why I hate Morrey Nissan and have no issues telling people NOT to go shop there for new/used cars.

[legalaction]

Just got a phone call from this manager and he said that he would give me back my deposit. He claimed that he did not forge the document and it was the salesman who gave me the wrong info. I am not satisfied with his answer.

[Redlines_Daily]

Just got a phone call from this manager and he said that he would give me back my deposit. He claimed that he did not forge the document and it was the salesman who gave me the wrong info. I am not satisfied with his answer.

fuck no, take this all the way man. He needs consequences, otherwise he will do it to some other poor guy who doesn't have the balls/time to fight it.

[Jgresch]

Thank you for your information. So what VSA has done before in this situation? Can those people really prove that the document is forged? Revoking license is only a punishment for professional misconduct. They will still get away from a criminal charge of forging documents. That is why they have the gut to do this I guess because they know this is OK.

Not sure if they can prove it was forged, situations that have happened in the past usually involve the dealer saying that it isn't refunable and that they had a verbal contract, which obviously doesn't matter.

I recall one case where the sales manager reprinted the reciept for a different amount for a deposit and wouldn't give back $500 or something along those lines. He was fired, his licence was revoked for life. $500 was refunded.

[legalaction]

i dont suppose you can post that manager's name here eh?

in case he goes to another dealership i want to avoid this guy. it's doubtful i'd ever purchase an infiniti b/c i'm poor :okay:

This manager is called Rick Kingdon, who I believe forged the agreement.

[legalaction]

fuck no, take this all the way man. He needs consequences, otherwise he will do it to some other poor guy who doesn't have the balls/time to fight it.

I will see how far I can go. At least you will find me posting the recorded conversation online. I tried to talk the salesman out of this, but if he decide to claim that it is his fault not knowing the terms exist and review it with me, I have to say that he is more intimidated by his boss than intimidated by ruining his career.

[legalaction]

Not sure if they can prove it was forged, situations that have happened in the past usually involve the dealer saying that it isn't refunable and that they had a verbal contract, which obviously doesn't matter.

I recall one case where the sales manager reprinted the reciept for a different amount for a deposit and wouldn't give back $500 or something along those lines. He was fired, his licence was revoked for life. $500 was refunded.

May I ask what do you do? I am new here.

[GLOW]

Thanks for the insight.. i will not purchase car from this dealership in future if i come across it

" 1 rat shit ruins the whole congee " chinese saying :P

i never thought i'd say this...but i'm tempted to sig this quote from greenstoner...

[Greenstoner]

^ its a good saying man.. works well in this situation haha

[Teknique]

Lesson learned for anyone buying a car:

get a copy of anything you sign. That should stop them from doing something shady like add things to it.

I actually had a more positive experience at Jaguar Richmond. Their contract says non refundable deposit, but my car purchase was pending a mechanical inspection by a mechanic of my choice. The car had some minor issues pointed out to me, and dealer guys did return my deposit.

So they aren't all bad, but be sure to protect yourself!

[legalaction]

Thanks for the insight.. i will not purchase car from this dealership in future if i come across it

" 1 rat shit ruins the whole congee " chinese saying :P

This person is the general sales manager and he alleged what he did can represent the whole dealership's position. He said that there was no need for meeting with general manager or the owner. He make all the decisions and he can represent the DEALERSHIP. I will wait for their owner's take for that comment. If he is just 1 rat shit, then this whole congee is gonna be made of rat shit. Remember, he is in charge of everything.

[legalaction]

Lesson learned for anyone buying a car:

get a copy of anything you sign. That should stop them from doing something shady like add things to it.

I actually had a more positive experience at Jaguar Richmond. Their contract says non refundable deposit, but my car purchase was pending a mechanical inspection by a mechanic of my choice. The car had some minor issues pointed out to me, and dealer guys did return my deposit.

So they aren't all bad, but be sure to protect yourself!

It is their responsibility for providing the customers with the copy of the document. Here is what their sales man tell me via email: "The bill of sales (agreement) is ALWAYS on dealership’s procession, that’s our copy and you will only get the deposit receipt. "

[parm104]

technically, if you signed an agreement to purchase a vehicle, you are legally obligated to purchase said vehicle. Best case scenario, you lose the $1000. Worst case scenario, you are forced to purchase the vehicle for the agreed upon amount.

I think you've missed the point here...But thanks for trying..


O.P. thanks for letting us know this. I've been dealing with a salesman from there for several days now and he's been trying to get me to put a deposit down so that no one else can touch the car for 24hrs. I've told him that I can't look at any cars until Saturday so there wouldn't be any point in doing a 24hr hold for $400 but he continues to push it.

Your deposit is obviously a little different than the one proposed in my situation. In general, I've learned that there isn't much of a need to put a deposit down on a vehicle. Cars come and go and there will ALWAYS be another opportunity. My take on it anyways.

[Presto]

I can't wait to see what search terms will bring up this thread in Google. Regency could get F'd in the A pretty good.

[lowside67]

It is their responsibility for providing the customers with the copy of the document. Here is what their sales man tell me via email: "The bill of sales (agreement) is ALWAYS on dealership’s procession, that’s our copy and you will only get the deposit receipt. "
That is not true at ALL - you are crazy to sign ANY contract without having a copy of it. You are well within your rights to request a copy of the bill of sale that stipulates what you and the dealership have agreed upon.

Mark (10 years in the car business)

[SumAznGuy]

I've been dealing with a salesman from there for several days now and he's been trying to get me to put a deposit down so that no one else can touch the car for 24hrs. I've told him that I can't look at any cars until Saturday so there wouldn't be any point in doing a 24hr hold for $400 but he continues to push it.

Your deposit is obviously a little different than the one proposed in my situation. In general, I've learned that there isn't much of a need to put a deposit down on a vehicle.

This is what happened with my Morrey Nissan experience back in 2001. I heard rumours that Nissan was going to have an SE-R sentra for the 2002 model year and I called Morrey to talk to a salesman about it. The guy knew nothing about the car and took down my info.
When Nissan offically announced the SE-R, a salesman called me to see if I was still interested in the car. Then he said I would need to put down a deposit to be first in line for the car when they arrived.
This was done over the phone and I never signed any paperwork.

When the car arrived half a year later, I was excited to go pickup the car. I went on a tuesday but the sales manager was away and I had to return the next day to fill out the paperwork. The price was MSRP plus freight and pdi.
The next day, the paperwork showed the car was MSRP plus $1000 plus freight and pdi. The extra $1000 was because they wanted to gouge a little bit extra since demand for the car exceeded supply.

I talked to the sales manager and even threated to go to the news and BBB but his answer was "talk to my lawyers". Then I asked for my deposit back and he said deposits were no refundable.

I was young and didn't know that wasn't true so I didn't fight to get my deposit back.

It wasn't until I took pictures of the "lowest price guarenteed" sign on their lot that they agreed to sell me the car at the original price. And it was the receptionist that called me to fill out the paperwork, and the sales manager never appologized.

[GLOW]

I can't wait to see what search terms will bring up this thread in Google. Regency could get F'd in the A pretty good.

so far only "regency infinity revscene" will bring it up to the top. guess it needs more work.

when i google revscene forums one of the autofill options has revscene and anthony espinosa in it LOL

i guess it'll take some time for this thread to get to that point.

[Berzerker]

I still have no idea why a "deposit" is even requested when supposedly you can get that deposit back without issue. What's the point of the deposit in the first place if they have to give it back if you change your mind? I guess to "hold" a certain vehicle?

Berz out.

[parm104]

I still have no idea why a "deposit" is even requested when supposedly you can get that deposit back without issue. What's the point of the deposit in the first place if they have to give it back if you change your mind? I guess to "hold" a certain vehicle?

Berz out.

A deposit is probably more of a psychological thing. It's a better than nothing sort of aspect from a sales point; at least a dirty sales point. Similarly, electronic stores would prefer that you put down at least a layaway on a product rather than walk out empty handed because it gives them some gross margin for that day.

I'm sure the car dealerships hope that a handful of people who put down deposits, PROBABLY think it's non-refundable as it is. Thus making them naive and not realizing they can still back out.

Another reason why the deposit could be used is so that they can then call other clients and say "Hello Berz, a gentleman has put down a deposit on this vehicle..." to gain your interest more and make you feel like you might've missed an opportunity.

[Quacks]

^ I think most of the time people do believe that the deposit is non-refundable once you sign the purchase agreement. When I went to Metrotown Mitsubishi, they wouldn't discuss prices until I gave them a $500 refundable deposit (I made sure several times and made him note that on the receipt and on the purchase agreement). When the pricing was agreed upon, they wanted another $2000 to locate the vehicle in the colour and trim I wanted. They stressed so many times that this $2000 is absolutely non-refundable and they claimed it was to protect themselves because a customer once changed his mind and caused them to lose money in transfering the car from another dealership over.

I believed him.

It's so easy to just take the money back and try to forget about the shit experience. Some bad apples do screw up it for everyone but I think these questionable practices are getting out of hand. I understand wanting some demonstration of sincerity on the buyer's part but if they need to be bullied and cowered into the purchase, then perhaps the salesperson should just take the high road and let them walk.

I got screwed over too but that was after accepting delivery of the vehicle so there wasn't much room to discuss.

OP, good on you for sticking to your principles.

[Jgresch]

May I ask what do you do? I am new here.
worked almost every position at a dealership minus service.

It is their responsibility for providing the customers with the copy of the document. Here is what their sales man tell me via email: "The bill of sales (agreement) is ALWAYS on dealership’s procession, that’s our copy and you will only get the deposit receipt. "

That is not true at ALL - you are crazy to sign ANY contract without having a copy of it. You are well within your rights to request a copy of the bill of sale that stipulates what you and the dealership have agreed upon.

Mark (10 years in the car business)

... I didn't realize it was a bill of sale that you filled out. On our bills of sale in the fine print it is printed that any partial payment is not refundable. We have run into problems a few times and end up returning this, but by the time the buyer gets to the bill of sale they are aware they have bought the vehicle.

@ Lowside, you're right, but doesn't it seem weird that they would do up a bill of sale and not give him a copy?

Jordan (Only 7 Years in car business :okay:)

[Jgresch]

A deposit is probably more of a psychological thing. It's a better than nothing sort of aspect from a sales point; at least a dirty sales point. Similarly, electronic stores would prefer that you put down at least a layaway on a product rather than walk out empty handed because it gives them some gross margin for that day.

I'm sure the car dealerships hope that a handful of people who put down deposits, PROBABLY think it's non-refundable as it is. Thus making them naive and not realizing they can still back out.

Another reason why the deposit could be used is so that they can then call other clients and say "Hello Berz, a gentleman has put down a deposit on this vehicle..." to gain your interest more and make you feel like you might've missed an opportunity.

Adding to this....

A deposit means that the customer has something tying the to the dealership. They can't just leave and never return now, even if they want to back out, they have to come back so the salesperson/manager have one last crack.

Also it might be hard for some to ask for a deposit back, maybe a shameful thing for some?

It also shows that the customer is at least a little bit service and that they're ready to do business.

[donjalapeno]

as soon as theres a thread involving dealership jgresch flys in like a hungry badger and throws answers left right and center :haha:

[Jgresch]

as soon as theres a thread involving dealership jgresch flys in like a hungry badger and throws answers left right and center :haha:

lol. then lowside comes in and tells me i'm wrong :okay: where is thesalesman?

[BlackZRoadster]

Car dealerships don't intend to make a living based off of client's non-refundable deposits. If they did, they would be out of business very fast.

Think about it this way, if you buy a house and you propose an offer, you are obligated to put down a deposit with subjects after the offer is accepted. If all your subjects are met and you decide to "change your mind", you will not receive your deposit back.

Deposits after a deal is agreed upon is so people don't back out of a deal for whatever reason. Unfortunately in our society, money talks, and only offers with monetary backing is considered. When i buy cars, watches, or toys etc. If i put down money and cancel, I'm expecting its gonna be hard to get my money back. I would be ashamed to ask for it back too, because I would feel bad for wasting a person's time.

My pet peeve is spending hours with a client, meeting their expectations in price/car/service, only to have them back out the next day because their plans changed.

Next time any of you walk into a place of business, please consider the salespersons time, and your own time that is wasted. Don't sign a deal unless you are ready to back it up. If you can't back it up, don't go complaining. It's called putting your money where your mouth is.

[Jgresch]

Bah the worst was coming back the next day and the sales manager tells you the customer had come in to take back their deposit without letting you know and youre just like:suspicious: well fuck.

[legalaction]

That is not true at ALL - you are crazy to sign ANY contract without having a copy of it. You are well within your rights to request a copy of the bill of sale that stipulates what you and the dealership have agreed upon.

Mark (10 years in the car business)

Thanks. But I do not understand what is not true in your sentence. I guess that you are saying what the salesman says is not true. I think the information on VSA said that if I was not provided with the copy the contract is not even effective. If they do want to enforce a nonrefundable deposit agreement, how can they "forget" giving me the copy?

[legalaction]

This is what happened with my Morrey Nissan experience back in 2001. I heard rumours that Nissan was going to have an SE-R sentra for the 2002 model year and I called Morrey to talk to a salesman about it. The guy knew nothing about the car and took down my info.
When Nissan offically announced the SE-R, a salesman called me to see if I was still interested in the car. Then he said I would need to put down a deposit to be first in line for the car when they arrived.
This was done over the phone and I never signed any paperwork.

When the car arrived half a year later, I was excited to go pickup the car. I went on a tuesday but the sales manager was away and I had to return the next day to fill out the paperwork. The price was MSRP plus freight and pdi.
The next day, the paperwork showed the car was MSRP plus $1000 plus freight and pdi. The extra $1000 was because they wanted to gouge a little bit extra since demand for the car exceeded supply.

I talked to the sales manager and even threated to go to the news and BBB but his answer was "talk to my lawyers". Then I asked for my deposit back and he said deposits were no refundable.

I was young and didn't know that wasn't true so I didn't fight to get my deposit back.

It wasn't until I took pictures of the "lowest price guarenteed" sign on their lot that they agreed to sell me the car at the original price. And it was the receptionist that called me to fill out the paperwork, and the sales manager never appologized.

How young were you back then?

[legalaction]

I still have no idea why a "deposit" is even requested when supposedly you can get that deposit back without issue. What's the point of the deposit in the first place if they have to give it back if you change your mind? I guess to "hold" a certain vehicle?

Berz out.

That is actually a good question. In fact if you do not have deposit agreement which clearly states terms and conditions of the use and refundability, it means nothing. It is just a word and an amount of money. Now as you guys can see, I do not speak perfect English, I can even interpret it as "deposit" in a bank which can be withdrawn or pays an interest. Without written terms and conditions, it means NOTHING. When you file the complaint on VSA, they will ask you whether you have a deposit agreement or not. I have not seen any dealership which give a deposit agreement. Remember, it is not part of the purchase agreement.

[legalaction]

A deposit is probably more of a psychological thing. It's a better than nothing sort of aspect from a sales point; at least a dirty sales point. Similarly, electronic stores would prefer that you put down at least a layaway on a product rather than walk out empty handed because it gives them some gross margin for that day.

I'm sure the car dealerships hope that a handful of people who put down deposits, PROBABLY think it's non-refundable as it is. Thus making them naive and not realizing they can still back out.

Another reason why the deposit could be used is so that they can then call other clients and say "Hello Berz, a gentleman has put down a deposit on this vehicle..." to gain your interest more and make you feel like you might've missed an opportunity.

Yes. That is how they rip us off. I can not believe this is happening so widely.

[Jgresch]

use Multi + button to highlight a bunch of posts then reply all at once ;)

[legalaction]

I originally came from a country with much weaker legal system so I trusted the law and justice in Canada. Even in my home country, such behavior will not be tolerated, though you might have to resort to other means than a legal action. I came to Canada because I am not accepting the status quo there, now stop telling me in Canada things are even worse and all dealerships are the same. The judicial system exists and people will be sued for their criminal actions. I have seen a lot in my home country and I do not even believe it there, how can you guys be so pessimistic and cynical?

[legalaction]

worked almost every position at a dealership minus service.





... I didn't realize it was a bill of sale that you filled out. On our bills of sale in the fine print it is printed that any partial payment is not refundable. We have run into problems a few times and end up returning this, but by the time the buyer gets to the bill of sale they are aware they have bought the vehicle.

@ Lowside, you're right, but doesn't it seem weird that they would do up a bill of sale and not give him a copy?

Jordan (Only 7 Years in car business :okay:)

No, the title was " MOTOR VEHICLE PURCHASE AGREEMENT", not a bill.

[Phozy]

He wants posts :troll:

Yeah, just be aware. Before signing, read thoroughly, and like the above post, think twice before wasting your own/ someone else's time. Then ask for a copy of it, make sure its the same, and be confident you have already made the choice, no going back.

[legalaction]

Adding to this....

A deposit means that the customer has something tying the to the dealership. They can't just leave and never return now, even if they want to back out, they have to come back so the salesperson/manager have one last crack.

Also it might be hard for some to ask for a deposit back, maybe a shameful thing for some?

It also shows that the customer is at least a little bit service and that they're ready to do business.

Yes all you said is the reason why they want to take the deposit. However, none of these has any legal obligation unless there is a deposit agreement clearly states the definition, the terms and condition of "deposit". I am not a native English speaker, but as far as I know, the word "deposit" has so many meanings. Even in auto transactions, it can mean different things. It is the car dealers who want to confuse these things by using just one word.

[Quacks]

I originally came from a country with much weaker legal system so I trusted the law and justice in Canada. Even in my home country, such behavior will not be tolerated, though you might have to resort to other means than a legal action. I came to Canada because I am not accepting the status quo there, now stop telling me in Canada things are even worse and all dealerships are the same. The judicial system exists and people will be sued for their criminal actions. I have seen a lot in my home country and I do not even believe it there, how can you guys be so pessimistic and cynical?

Err...I was trying to express my support for your cause. Not all dealerships are bad, in fact I dealt with a used car salesman with a Mazda dealership and was so impressed with him, I didn't even negotiate the price since it was within my budget.

Anyways, good luck...

[boostfever]

knowing the douchebags at regency nissan/infiniti, this doesn't surprise me a bit.

[Jgresch]

Yes all you said is the reason why they want to take the deposit. However, none of these has any legal obligation unless there is a deposit agreement clearly states the definition, the terms and condition of "deposit". I am not a native English speaker, but as far as I know, the word "deposit" has so many meanings. Even in auto transactions, it can mean different things. It is the car dealers who want to confuse these things by using just one word.

:facepalm:
Yes I realize those are reasons why they would want to take a deposit... that's what were we discussing. I didn't say there was any legal obligation lol I'm on you side bro.

[legalaction]

Car dealerships don't intend to make a living based off of client's non-refundable deposits. If they did, they would be out of business very fast.

Think about it this way, if you buy a house and you propose an offer, you are obligated to put down a deposit with subjects after the offer is accepted. If all your subjects are met and you decide to "change your mind", you will not receive your deposit back.

Deposits after a deal is agreed upon is so people don't back out of a deal for whatever reason. Unfortunately in our society, money talks, and only offers with monetary backing is considered. When i buy cars, watches, or toys etc. If i put down money and cancel, I'm expecting its gonna be hard to get my money back. I would be ashamed to ask for it back too, because I would feel bad for wasting a person's time.

My pet peeve is spending hours with a client, meeting their expectations in price/car/service, only to have them back out the next day because their plans changed.

Next time any of you walk into a place of business, please consider the salespersons time, and your own time that is wasted. Don't sign a deal unless you are ready to back it up. If you can't back it up, don't go complaining. It's called putting your money where your mouth is.

I surely believe that they do not want to make a living from deposit. That is why they threaten me on buying the car. Again, you are not defining what is a deposit here. In fact, I also spend time shopping and considering paying my money. I do feel compassionate for the salesman who was helping me, because now his manager is claiming that it is all his fault for not informing me, not giving me the copy and "forgetting" the non-refundable deposit. Now he is totally under his manager's control. It seems that the manager not only wanted to set me up, he will also set the salesperson up, if he feels necessary and try to get away from the crime charge. I know that a lot of you may work in this industry as a salesman. Please, you should also beware of what you dealership is doing to you.

If the salesperson that I was speaking of is reading this thread, please do not put your career in danger by simply saying "I don't know" and "I don't remember". This may get your license suspended. If what you say in the future is not consistent with what you told me yesterday, there would be more trouble for you. Your manager is using you and the best way of getting out of this is to tell the truth.

[legalaction]

Bah the worst was coming back the next day and the sales manager tells you the customer had come in to take back their deposit without letting you know and youre just like:suspicious: well fuck.

The fact is that I told the salesman beforehand and my original intention was to renegotiate the price. The manager then threatened me with the deposit which I know that they have no right to take. I then said I would not accept any offer before I get the deposit back. They then presented the forged document and pretend it to be legally binding contract. Was I scared? Sorry, I came from a much scarier place and what this guy did is just like a kindergarten bully. Now it is the time for their Halloween. I think you guys will be very interested in listening to his reaction when I told him that I was recording the conversation. Now who is scared?

[Rich Sandor]

The 'purchase agreement' or 'offer to purchase' is not really a legally binding document. It's just a hand-written record to what was offered and what was accepted. The BILL OF SALE is the actual legal document.

[Jgresch]

The fact is that I told the salesman beforehand and my original intention was to renegotiate the price. The manager then threatened me with the deposit which I know that they have no right to take. I then said I would not accept any offer before I get the deposit back. They then presented the forged document and pretend it to be legally binding contract. Was I scared? Sorry, I came from a much scarier place and what this guy did is just like a kindergarten bully. Now it is the time for their Halloween. I think you guys will be very interested in listening to his reaction when I told him that I was recording the conversation. Now who is scared?



I was telling BlackZroadster that it is a pet peeve when that happens, I realize this isn't the case in your case.

[legalaction]

Err...I was trying to express my support for your cause. Not all dealerships are bad, in fact I dealt with a used car salesman with a Mazda dealership and was so impressed with him, I didn't even negotiate the price since it was within my budget.

Anyways, good luck...

Yes I can see that. I am not trying to blame you. When I say "you" I actually mean people who kept telling me this is normal, and the people who believed that is was non-fundable in your original post. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

Also, I agree that not all of them are bad.

[legalaction]

The 'purchase agreement' or 'offer to purchase' is not really a legally binding document. It's just a hand-written record to what was offered and what was accepted. The BILL OF SALE is the actual legal document.

Thanks for the clarification. That is also what I thought. So presenting me with a non-legal binding agreement and pretending it to be legal in order to get my deposit or profit does constitute a crime?

[legalaction]

:facepalm:
Yes I realize those are reasons why they would want to take a deposit... that's what were we discussing. I didn't say there was any legal obligation lol I'm on you side bro.

Yes yes. The thing is that I also wanted to clarify this to others. So I continue with what you have said. :)

[BlackZRoadster]

Why did you put a deposit if you weren't serious?

Is your time not valuable you have to go and work out deals on cars you don't intend on purchasing?
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[Berzerker]

Obviously he had some intentions to buy or he wouldn't have put a deposit or been looking at cars in the first place. Lets not forget it's the salespersons JOB to cater to people coming in to look at cars. Don't like not selling? Find a new fucking job! lol.

Berz out.

[Redlines_Daily]

Why did you put a deposit if you weren't serious?

Is your time not valuable you have to go and work out deals on cars you don't intend on purchasing?
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

obviously he intended to purchase then changed his mind, use some common sense.

[legalaction]

I was certainly serious about buying. But "being serious" does not mean that I agreed upon a nonrefundable deposit. Even if I was intended to buy at that moment, I still have my right to change my mind. If you do not like it, try to sign a nonrefundable deposit agreement with me, but do not forge it afterwards.

[king_2011]

Hope you get your $1000 deposit back bro, taking "legal action" is the right way to go, hence your username :fullofwin:

[MindBomber]

Just curious, where did you emigrate from legalaction?

[legalaction]

Hope you get your $1000 deposit back bro, taking "legal action" is the right way to go, hence your username :fullofwin:

Thanks. They did call me and wanted to give the money back to me. But I am disturbed by the action of forging the document. That is way more serious than 1000 dollars.

[haulin oats]

There is something called the Sale of Goods Act. This protects both the buyer, and the seller.

Sale of Goods Act (http://www.bclaws.ca/EPLibraries/bclaws_new/document/ID/freeside/00_96410_01)

You can take note of Section 6 of this. This is the Breach of Contract section. The offer to purchase you signed is in fact a legal and binding contract. Regency Nissan has a legal right to hold you to the contract. It would be a dick move, but businesses are protected, just as consumers are.

[legalaction]

Just curious, where did you emigrate from legalaction?
I am from China.

[legalaction]

There is something called the Sale of Goods Act. This protects both the buyer, and the seller.

Sale of Goods Act (http://www.bclaws.ca/EPLibraries/bclaws_new/document/ID/freeside/00_96410_01)

You can take note of Section 6 of this. This is the Breach of Contract section. The offer to purchase you signed is in fact a legal and binding contract. Regency Nissan has a legal right to hold you to the contract. It would be a dick move, but businesses are protected, just as consumers are.

As people have said in previous posts, the Purchase Agreement is not a sales contract. If Regency Nissan knew this, they were presenting illegal document as legal. If Regency Nissan did not know this, they should not be qualified for selling cars. Also, forging document is not charged under this act. It is in fact a crime:

Forgery and Offences Resembling Forgery

366. (1) Every one commits forgery who makes a false document, knowing it to be false, with intent (a) that it should in any way be used or acted on as genuine, to the prejudice of any one whether within Canada or not; or (b) that a person should be induced, by the belief that it is genuine, to do or to refrain from doing anything, whether within Canada or not.

Making false document

(2) Making a false document includes (a) altering a genuine document in any material part; (b) making a material addition to a genuine document or adding to it a false date, attestation, seal or other thing that is material; or (c) making a material alteration in a genuine document by erasure, obliteration, removal or in any other way. (3) Forgery is complete as soon as a document is made... (4) Forgery is complete notwithstanding that the false document is incomplete ...

367. Every one who commits forgery (a) ... liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years; or (b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Uttering forged document

368. (1) Every one who, knowing that a document is forged, (a) uses, deals with or acts on it, or (b) causes or attempts to cause any person to use, deal with or act on it, as if the document were genuine, (c) ... liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years; or (d) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

(2) For the purposes of proceedings under this section, the place where a document was forged is not material.

[Spartacus]

Thanks. They did call me and wanted to give the money back to me. But I am disturbed by the action of forging the document. That is way more serious than 1000 dollars.

What made them change thier mind? And what did you say about it?
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[legalaction]

What made them change thier mind? And what did you say about it?
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

They said that they reviewed the salesman's email with me. Also, they got the complaint from VSA. They are now saying that it is the salesman's fault for not reviewing the document with me, but they denied forging the document. They wanted to give me my deposit back and request my credit card number. I said that I would not give my credit card number to them just to prevent further fraud.

[J-Chow]

Good luck with your issue bro ^.

I had an issue with openroad hyundai in richmond.... for about a month and a half, but it was settled with a little help from another RS member.

I eventually went to Destination Hyundai and was much more satisfied with their customer services.

[Roach]

^ Glad you found your car. I found out after that we have a mutual friend. Your gfs coworker is a friend of mine.

Kev

[Presto]

L - O - fucking -L. Skinnypup has sure done a good job with RS and Google. Search: regency infiniti deposit. This thread pops up on number 4. Search for: regency infinity gar purdy. Thanks to some name dropping, this thread comes in at number 6. Even Nick Andrews will be on the first page of results. It just needs a few more keywords, like crooks and scammers. ;)

[boostfever]

Why did you put a deposit if you weren't serious?

Is your time not valuable you have to go and work out deals on cars you don't intend on purchasing?
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

you obviously don't know shit about car sales. client put $2000 on an Audi R8 a couple years ago at my work, we kept the car and the money for two weeks only to realize he has changed his mind. he didn't buy anything from us and he got all his money back. it's all about principles.

[legalaction]

L - O - fucking -L. Skinnypup has sure done a good job with RS and Google. Search: regency infiniti deposit. This thread pops up on number 4. Search for: regency infinity gar purdy. Thanks to some name dropping, this thread comes in at number 6. Even Nick Andrews will be on the first page of results. It just needs a few more keywords, like crooks and scammers. ;)

Thanks guys. please use your google account and press the +1 on my first post. This will also help.

[BlackZRoadster]

[quote=boostfever;7596248]you obviously don't know shit about car sales. client put $2000 on an Audi R8 a couple years ago at my work, we kept the car and the money for two weeks only to realize he has changed his mind. he didn't buy anything from us and he got all his money back. it's all about principles.[/

I've been in the industry over 10 years and based on principle I would have made an effort to keep the 2000 deposit if I held a r8 for 2 weeks
Let me ask you, if I booked you for a photo session month in advance and payed you 500 deposit and let's say I changed my mind last minute , would you give me my money back?
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[FerrariEnzo]

good job getting your money back...

did you report this to the BBB....

[k3mps]

i had some family members look into regency nissan / toyota.
thanks for the heads up, they just lost a couple of customers.
good luck with the case !

[eclipseman]

I've been in the industry over 10 years and based on principle I would have made an effort to keep the 2000 deposit if I held a r8 for 2 weeks
Let me ask you, if I booked you for a photo session month in advance and payed you 500 deposit and let's say I changed my mind last minute , would you give me my money back?
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

Unless I rendered services for you, I absolutely would give you your deposit back. As much as your time as a salesman is valuable, your job is to service the client to the best of your ability for as long as you are willing, to facilitate the sale.

If the deposit receipt clearly stated non-refundable deposit, then the onus is on the consumer. In this particular case, it's not.

[mmmk]

I hope people at Regency Infiniti see this thread.

Trying to rip off the OP is gonna cost them way more than $1000!

[lowside67]

Thanks. But I do not understand what is not true in your sentence. I guess that you are saying what the salesman says is not true. I think the information on VSA said that if I was not provided with the copy the contract is not even effective. If they do want to enforce a nonrefundable deposit agreement, how can they "forget" giving me the copy?
What is not true is what you said the salesperson said: it is "their" bill of sale and you are not entitled to a copy. A contract does not belong to any one person, it is a record of an agreement and both sides are entitled to that record.

Mark

[SkinnyPupp]

I can't wait to see what search terms will bring up this thread in Google. Regency could get F'd in the A pretty good.
Everyone +1 and "Like" the first post, and post it on other forums, it might help :)

BTW it's not the first time this dealer has had complaints

http://www.revscene.net/forums/535631-pissed-off-regency-infiniti-northshore.html

[legalaction]

I've been in the industry over 10 years and based on principle I would have made an effort to keep the 2000 deposit if I held a r8 for 2 weeks
Let me ask you, if I booked you for a photo session month in advance and payed you 500 deposit and let's say I changed my mind last minute , would you give me my money back?
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

Some people have no knowledge about law or just pretend not knowing anything about law. These people are giving other hardworking people in this industry a bad name. You have to make your effort based on law, because different people have different "principle". Moreover, the effort should be made before people putting down their deposit, not after. you should clearly state the definition, terms and conditions of the deposit, and write them down on paper, and get signatures and initials. If you do not do it, you are willing to bear the risk and cost of shipping and stocking yourself, in exchange for the customer's faster decision-making. Remember, you had not lost anything yet but the expected ex ante payoff is high. Ex post, every once a while a customer could change his/her mind, you should bear this cost if you did not hedge this risk. But on average, you can make money by not forcing people sign nonrefundable deposit agreement. This is a business strategy, and the principle is "exchange future return with bearing the risk". Think about the stock market if you have a hard time understanding this. Or you are just pretending to be ignorant.

Making any effort to keep the deposit is wrong if you have used this business strategy implicitly. It is your cost. What is worse, presenting a non-legally binding contract as legal and try to keep the deposit, is a forgery or "offenses resembling forgery" as I cited in previous posts. If you do that, can I say that you principle is "Get my money by any means, including crime"? Some people have been torturing Vancouver customers for over 10 years, now it is time to stop. Maybe you learned nothing about law when you got your certificate. Then it must be the authority's fault.



good job getting your money back...

did you report this to the BBB....


Yes I sure did. However, they are not as quick as VSA.

[legalaction]

I hope people at Regency Infiniti see this thread.

Trying to rip off the OP is gonna cost them way more than $1000!

I do not know whether they are reading. But obviously other people who use the same scam is reading and trying to defend them, which I am more than happy to see.

What is not true is what you said the salesperson said: it is "their" bill of sale and you are not entitled to a copy. A contract does not belong to any one person, it is a record of an agreement and both sides are entitled to that record.

Mark

It is not true. But he said it. And I will use it as evidence.

Everyone +1 and "Like" the first post, and post it on other forums, it might help :)

BTW it's not the first time this dealer has had complaints

http://www.revscene.net/forums/535631-pissed-off-regency-infiniti-northshore.html

Thanks a lot for helping me. If VSA do not punish them enough, they will eventually be afraid of nothing. Now they have forged the document just to get that $1000, what would they do to their cars when there is more profit? Can you imagine?

[BlackZRoadster]

^ can you not try to use complicated terms and expressions? Its making your post very hard to understand. If your English isn't good, stick with the basics first.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[legalaction]

^ can you not try to use complicated terms and expressions? Its making your post very hard to understand. If your English isn't good, stick with the basics first.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

Keep pretending man. Keep going. I am amazed that you come to this post so early in the morning. That is very intriguing and people will make their judgement.

[N8]

^ can you not try to use complicated terms and expressions? Its making your post very hard to understand. If your English isn't good, stick with the basics first.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

I didn't have a problem understanding him.

[Kalize]

Hope it works out for the OP...

I bought an Infiniti FX35 from Regency Infinti over the phone; made the deal over the phone...no deposit nothing, showed up the day I said I would be there, saw the car (new); saw the sold sign, signed the papers and away I went with my new car.

[GLOW]

L - O - fucking -L. Skinnypup has sure done a good job with RS and Google. Search: regency infiniti deposit. This thread pops up on number 4. Search for: regency infinity gar purdy. Thanks to some name dropping, this thread comes in at number 6. Even Nick Andrews will be on the first page of results. It just needs a few more keywords, like crooks and scammers. ;)

if he can make this thread pop up by just googling "regency infinity" on the first page that would be sweet.

[legalaction]

Hope it works out for the OP...

I bought an Infiniti FX35 from Regency Infinti over the phone; made the deal over the phone...no deposit nothing, showed up the day I said I would be there, saw the car (new); saw the sold sign, signed the papers and away I went with my new car.

Thanks. When did it happen? It is quite different now, they try to trick you into the dealership first and then try to control you. Or maybe they just treat me differently, but I got some private messages and also posts here saying they were treated the same way.

[legalaction]

I didn't have a problem understanding him.

That guy just wanted to pretend that he does not understand.

if he can make this thread pop up by just googling "regency infinity" on the first page that would be sweet.

Yes, if more people share this thread, use google accounts and facebook accounts and press "like", it may also make a difference. If I am not satisfied with Regency's response and the result of VSA investigation, I will post the recorded conversation. I hope you guys will like it.

[vafanculo]

I hope this thread gets as big as that thread where the dealership refused to honor the gtr on eBay to save on $4k.

Bit of a difference in stories, but still a bitch move on both parties.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[GLOW]

i hope you get success in your battle with this dealership and you get to dance to some outkast music when you hear the good news, much like this guy did

YOU ARE NOT THE FATHER!!!! - YouTube

[cruz-in]

Keep pretending man. Keep going. I am amazed that you come to this post so early in the morning. That is very intriguing and people will make their judgement.

lol

reading your posts is like reading a newspaper. :)

so sound like one educated Mofo.

[bcrdukes]

Thanks. When did it happen? It is quite different now, they try to trick you into the dealership first and then try to control you. Or maybe they just treat me differently, but I got some private messages and also posts here saying they were treated the same way.

3 personal friends of mine (different age, demographic etc.) each went to Regency Toyota, Lexus and Nissan.

All 3 had a very bad experience. Regency isn't what they used to be. They bought from OpenRoad instead.

[BlackZRoadster]

Keep pretending man. Keep going. I am amazed that you come to this post so early in the morning. That is very intriguing and people will make their judgement.

i was earlier than you by 14 minutes lol

im not pretending dude. I understood maybe 80% of it, I support you though. Everybody's gotta learn english sooner or later. :woot2:

[legalaction]

I hope this thread gets as big as that thread where the dealership refused to honor the gtr on eBay to save on $4k.

Bit of a difference in stories, but still a bitch move on both parties.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

I would not do this if they did not commit the crime of forging and threaten me like a kindergarten bully.

i hope you get success in your battle with this dealership and you get to dance to some outkast music when you hear the good news, much like this guy did

YOU ARE NOT THE FATHER!!!! - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt2i0ts-uck)

Thanks man. Now they want to give the money back to me. But Rick Kingdon still wants to play hard on me.

lol

reading your posts is like reading a newspaper. :)

so sound like one educated Mofo.

I'll treat that as a compliment. Unfortunately, you have to be an educated Mofo to get the scholarship and study in Canada without paying the international tuition as high as a luxury car each year. I learned English by reading newspapers. Also, you have to be an educated Mofo to make those uneducated Mofos pay their price.

3 personal friends of mine (different age, demographic etc.) each went to Regency Toyota, Lexus and Nissan.

All 3 had a very bad experience. Regency isn't what they used to be. They bought from OpenRoad instead.

My experience explains how low Regency would go nowadays. If they can alter and forge an agreement, what do you expect they would do to your odometers, history reports, and mechanical parts?

[legalaction]

i was earlier than you by 14 minutes lol

im not pretending dude. I understood maybe 80% of it, I support you though. Everybody's gotta learn english sooner or later. :woot2:

Yeah I came here early because I care. But you came here earlier than me so that is very interesting. I am not trying to imply anything but people will make their judgement.

If you are trying to support me by saying how taking deposit without an agreement is reasonable as in your previous posts, how did you learn the English word "support"?

[BlackZRoadster]

Yeah I came here early because I care. But you came here earlier than me so that is very interesting. I am not trying to imply anything but people will make their judgement.

If you are trying to support me by saying how taking deposit without an agreement is reasonable as in your previous posts, how did you learn the English word "support"?

I'm supporting you learning and trying english. Lots of chinese imigrants from china are wealthy and they cant speak a word of english nor do they care to learn or try it. ;)

[legalaction]

I'm supporting you learning and trying english. Lots of chinese imigrants from china are wealthy and they cant speak a word of english nor do they care to learn or try it. ;)

Thank you for pointing that out. I like those stereotypes. I think Regency Infiniti made their decisions exactly based on that kind of stereotypes. They thought that I was just another ignorant Chinese kid with rich parents. When you are biased, you tend to make bad judgment and do the wrong things.

There are also some stereotypes about car dealerships and salesperson though I am not willing to believe it, but are you?

P.S, If my memory serves me well, there are two "m"s in the English word "immigrant". You surely like eating your words man. Tastes good?

[CharlieH]

^
LOL

[insomniac]

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/41569_5295623557_1523924_n.jpg

[GLOW]

count it

http://www.thisisyourconscience.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/ballin.jpg

[R&R]

^^LOLOL
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[Spartacus]

Lmao pwn'd
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[MindBomber]

Yeah I came here early because I care. But you came here earlier than me so that is very interesting. I am not trying to imply anything but people will make their judgement.

If you are trying to support me by saying how taking deposit without an agreement is reasonable as in your previous posts, how did you learn the English word "support"?

You are clearly trying to imply something and it's childish, so if you want this thread to remain a honest and serious piece of documentation against Regency, I would suggest you remain professional. Just an honest piece of advice.

I've also found some of your posts where you attempted to use more complicated phrases difficult to understand, that's not an insult, it's the honest truth coming from someone who supports you in this case.

p.s., I posted a link to this thread on another forum, hopefully the word gets out that Regency does not conduct business fairly as a result of this incident.

[StylinRed]

I think BlackZR works @ Regency Infiniti



grats on getting your money back so quickly LA

[legalaction]

You are clearly trying to imply something and it's childish, so if you want this thread to remain a honest and serious piece of documentation against Regency, I would suggest you remain professional. Just an honest piece of advice.

I've also found some of your posts where you attempted to use more complicated phrases difficult to understand, that's not an insult, it's the honest truth coming from someone who supports you in this case.

Thanks for the advice. Would you mind pointing out those phrases? I will try to correct them and make them clearer. I certainly will not treat people's comments as an insult, when they are trying to correct my errors in English.

But I will consider it as an insult when someone is trying to distract this topic to my English skills, or when someone is trying to distract this topic to national or ethnic stereotypes, although I think that kind of discussion could bring more attention on the internet.

Also, could you give me a link to that forum? Thanks a lot.

[MindBomber]

Thanks for the advice. Would you mind pointing out those phrases? I will try to correct them and make them clearer. I certainly will not treat people's comments as an insult, when they are trying to correct my errors in English.

But I will consider it as an insult when someone is trying to distract this topic to my English skills, or when someone is trying to distract this topic to national or ethnic stereotypes, although I think that kind of discussion could bring more attention on the internet.

Strictly based on BlackZRoadsters previous posts, he's rarely been the type to unfairly criticize someone. I think, and I could be wrong, he was just trying to offer you constructive criticism on your english. When BlackZ mentioned that many Chinese do not learn the language when they emigrate, I think that was intended as a compliment towards you, since your english is quite good if you've only been in Canada a few years.


There are also some stereotypes about car dealerships and salesperson though I am not willing to believe it, but are you?

P.S, If my memory serves me well, there are two "m"s in the English word "immigrant". You surely like eating your words man. Tastes good?

In english clarity is very important, since words can have multiple definitions depending on context and grammar. When you say "but are you" it's unclear to me what you're asking; it could be, are you a willing to believe the stereotypes, or are you one of those stereotypes. Little things like that can cause some readers to be confused and the overall point of a sentence is lost.

Again, I'm not trying to be unconstructive, just offering my interpretation.

Good luck with your fight, it was a brilliant move to record the conversation.

[Quacks]

There is something called the Sale of Goods Act. This protects both the buyer, and the seller.

Sale of Goods Act (http://www.bclaws.ca/EPLibraries/bclaws_new/document/ID/freeside/00_96410_01)

You can take note of Section 6 of this. This is the Breach of Contract section. The offer to purchase you signed is in fact a legal and binding contract. Regency Nissan has a legal right to hold you to the contract. It would be a dick move, but businesses are protected, just as consumers are.

It doesn't sound like he signed the purchase agreement, but rather the "worksheet" every dealership I've been to uses.

Also, I do think both parties should be protected and while we're at it, we can look at some sections in the Business Practices and Consumer Protection Act:

4(3)(b)(iv) : Without limiting subsection (1), one or more of the following constitutes a deceptive act or practice: a representation by a supplier that a consumer transaction involves or does not involve rights, remedies or obligations that differs from the fact"

Prohibition and burden of proof
5 (1) A supplier must not commit or engage in a deceptive act or practice in respect of a consumer transaction.

(2) If it is alleged that a supplier committed or engaged in a deceptive act or practice, the burden of proof that the deceptive act or practice was not committed or engaged in is on the supplier.

And even if he did sign the purchase agreement:

Direct sales contract — cancellation
21 (1) A consumer may cancel a direct sales contract by giving notice of cancellation to the supplier not later than 10 days after the date that the consumer receives a copy of the contract.

But of course you can't go purchase cars and then change your mind willy nilly:
Subsection 28(3): If goods are returned by the consumer under subsection (1), the consumer is liable to the supplier for any damage to the goods caused by the failure of the consumer to take reasonable care of the goods.

[legalaction]

Strictly based on BlackZRoadsters previous posts, he's rarely been the type to unfairly criticize someone. I think, and I could be wrong, he was just trying to offer you constructive criticism on your english. When BlackZ mentioned that many Chinese do not learn the language when they emigrate, I think that was intended as a compliment towards you, since your english is quite good if you've only been in Canada a few years.



In english clarity is very important, since words can have multiple definitions depending on context and grammar. When you say "but are you" it's unclear to me what you're asking; it could be, are you a willing to believe the stereotypes, or are you one of those stereotypes. Little things like that can cause some readers to be confused and the overall point of a sentence is lost.

Again, I'm not trying to be unconstructive, just offering my interpretation.

Good luck with your fight, it was a brilliant move to record the conversation.

Thanks for the insight. BlackZRoadsters' previous posts tried to justify forfeiting customer's deposit without a legal agreement by talking about how salesperson put in their time and how the dealership put in their cost in transportation and stocking. He also claimed that he worked in this industry for over 10 years. If he worked in this industry for 10 years, he should know what is a legal document and what is a legal action. he should also know the simple economics of cost and benefit, risk and return. If he failed to do this, it is very surprising that he is in this industry for over 10 years. So I said they either did not know the law, or pretended to be not knowing. And I explained a simple risk and return trade-off and why dealerships often do not make deposit legally nonrefundable. Then without responding to any comment on legal matters or business strategy matters, he said that it was hard to understand my post while others did not have any problems. I have no other comments but "keep pretending". and then he said he understood 80% as opposed to "very hard to understand" in the original post.

You can also see his "I support you though" has different meanings. In fact the two sentences you cited were intentionally left there as puns. It can be interpreted just as you said in your post, though I admit that the first one is not as good as the "eating your words" one. I thought you would point out any complicated expressions in the post that he was pointing at. But in those two sentences, I kind of did it intentionally.

But thank you anyways and I hope you would point out other errors. Again, could you give me a link to the other post that you were talking about?

[legalaction]

It doesn't sound like he signed the purchase agreement, but rather the "worksheet" every dealership I've been to uses.

Also, I do think both parties should be protected and while we're at it, we can look at some sections in the Business Practices and Consumer Protection Act:

4(3)(b)(iv) : Without limiting subsection (1), one or more of the following constitutes a deceptive act or practice: a representation by a supplier that a consumer transaction involves or does not involve rights, remedies or obligations that differs from the fact"

Prohibition and burden of proof
5 (1) A supplier must not commit or engage in a deceptive act or practice in respect of a consumer transaction.

(2) If it is alleged that a supplier committed or engaged in a deceptive act or practice, the burden of proof that the deceptive act or practice was not committed or engaged in is on the supplier.

And even if he did sign the purchase agreement:

Direct sales contract — cancellation
21 (1) A consumer may cancel a direct sales contract by giving notice of cancellation to the supplier not later than 10 days after the date that the consumer receives a copy of the contract.

But of course you can't go purchase cars and then change your mind willy nilly:
Subsection 28(3): If goods are returned by the consumer under subsection (1), the consumer is liable to the supplier for any damage to the goods caused by the failure of the consumer to take reasonable care of the goods.

What is a "worksheet"? I did sign the purchase agreement, but the point is, the "DEPOSIT NONREFUNDABLE" part is added afterwards and I was not provided with a copy of it. Also, a "purchase agreement" is not a sales contract.

I have posted a link in the first post regarding the deposit matters explained by VSA. Hopefully this will help more people understand.

[BlackZRoadster]

Spelling errors pwned me.

I support your war of terror - Borat
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[Quacks]

What is a "worksheet"? I did sign the purchase agreement, but the point is, the "DEPOSIT NONREFUNDABLE" part is added afterwards and I was not provided with a copy of it. Also, a "purchase agreement" is not a sales contract.

I have posted a link in the first post regarding the deposit matters explained by VSA. Hopefully this will help more people understand.

Just found this: http://www.mvsabc.com/documents/blt-deposits-fnlJun2308Issue14_000.pdf

Lol all that work for nothing, it's already been summarized by VSA -_-;

Search "Understanding deposits" and "the sales transaction" from this page on VSA's website: Vehicle Buying Tips from The Motor Vehicle Sales Authority of British Columbia (http://www.mdcbc.com/buying-tips.htm#understanding)

I found that normally, when you express interest in a specific car, the salesperson sits you down and starts a "worksheet" outlining the MSRP of the vehicle, any trade in you might be bringing in and rebates, etc. At that point, they would ask you how much were you thinking of paying for the vehicle. You name a price, they ask for a "deposit" (mine was $500) before they can go talk to their manager about the offer you gave. They also say that if the manager agrees to the price you offered then you must buy the car (otherwise the "deposit" is refunded back to you if they cannot sell the car to you for the price you offer).

After we agreed upon the price and I gave them another $2000 to locate the vehicle, we met again when the vehicle was transferred to the dealership and my financing was approved. I came in to meet with the business manager to sign the purchase agreement (I remember signing SO many forms) and was given copies of everything I signed.

[legalaction]

Spelling errors pwned me.

I support your war of terror - Borat
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

No. Your ignorance or pretending to be ignorant pwned you. You are like Borat dressing in a Hello Kitty outfit. Nice try. But not very cute.

Even in college, oftentimes you are not punished in exams for spelling errors or grammatical errors except it is a language course. Reasons, knowledge and logic can still go through, putting no barriers in front of people of different countries, races or professions. Isn't that amazing? You think people support me just because I made fun of your typos?

[legalaction]

Just found this: http://www.mvsabc.com/documents/blt-deposits-fnlJun2308Issue14_000.pdf

Lol all that work for nothing, it's already been summarized by VSA -_-;

Search "Understanding deposits" and "the sales transaction" from this page on VSA's website: Vehicle Buying Tips from The Motor Vehicle Sales Authority of British Columbia (http://www.mdcbc.com/buying-tips.htm#understanding)

I found that normally, when you express interest in a specific car, the salesperson sits you down and starts a "worksheet" outlining the MSRP of the vehicle, any trade in you might be bringing in and rebates, etc. At that point, they would ask you how much were you thinking of paying for the vehicle. You name a price, they ask for a "deposit" (mine was $500) before they can go talk to their manager about the offer you gave. They also say that if the manager agrees to the price you offered then you must buy the car (otherwise the "deposit" is refunded back to you if they cannot sell the car to you for the price you offer).

After we agreed upon the price and I gave them another $2000 to locate the vehicle, we met again when the vehicle was transferred to the dealership and my financing was approved. I came in to meet with the business manager to sign the purchase agreement (I remember signing SO many forms) and was given copies of everything I signed.

Thanks. That is exactly the bulletin I was talking about. I realized that I might have posted a wrong link in the original post. I have changed it.

I was never asked for a deposit before negotiating the price. Sometimes they do want your credit cad though.

[LSF22]

Thank you for pointing that out. I like those stereotypes. I think Regency Infiniti made their decisions exactly based on that kind of stereotypes. They thought that I was just another ignorant Chinese kid with rich parents. When you are biased, you tend to make bad judgment and do the wrong things.

There are also some stereotypes about car dealerships and salesperson though I am not willing to believe it, but are you?


+1

As others have said, good luck in your fight and keep us updated.

[FI-Z33]

bf took his car to regency infiniti for service and he told them specifically not to wash his car...

we came back the next day to see that the car is all washed and we found that the mufflers were off (one was lower than the other) and the front bumper on the left has been hit and they tried to fix and realign it without telling us and trying to hide it from us.

never great encounters with regency infinity :mad:

[legalaction]

bf took his car to regency infiniti for service and he told them specifically not to wash his car...

we came back the next day to see that the car is all washed and we found that the mufflers were off (one was lower than the other) and the front bumper on the left has been hit and they tried to fix and realign it without telling us and trying to hide it from us.

never great encounters with regency infinity :mad:

I am glad that I did not buy the car from them now. Who knows what they had done to it.

[SkinnyPupp]

if he can make this thread pop up by just googling "regency infinity" on the first page that would be sweet.
For that, we'll need backlinks. So share this link on other BC forums, blogs, facebook, craigslist, twitter, whatever, and it will make it to the top eventually

[legalaction]

I think BlackZR works @ Regency Infiniti



grats on getting your money back so quickly LA

I do not know where he works. But he had made it very clear that he would "make effort" to keep your deposit if you do not buy. Better make effort to avoid him no matter who he works for.

[Jgresch]

He doesn't work at Regency.

[Datsun]

Shortcut: send this story to Jalopnik or other big auto news sites.

[achiam]

I will see how far I can go. At least you will find me posting the recorded conversation online. I tried to talk the salesman out of this, but if he decide to claim that it is his fault not knowing the terms exist and review it with me, I have to say that he is more intimidated by his boss than intimidated by ruining his career.

DEMAND A BRAND NEW 2012 NISSAN GTR.

[BlackZRoadster]

I do not know where he works. But he had made it very clear that he would "make effort" to keep your deposit if you do not buy. Better make effort to avoid him no matter who he works for.

I would definitely keep a client's deposit if they signed a document stating "partial payment" , and/or non-refundable deposit.

Just for your information, the salesperson gets nothing from a clients forfeited deposit. It's just principle to me if i state it's "partial payment, non-refundable" that the client doesn't receive it back. Everyone has their principles, so does the salesperson.

However, one thing i do agree in your case is that if it didn't state non-refundable, i do agree they should have given the deposit back to you.

[legalaction]

He doesn't work at Regency.

It does not matter where he works. These people exist, and that fact disturbs me a little bit.

DEMAND A BRAND NEW 2012 NISSAN GTR.

Greedy......

[legalaction]

Shortcut: send this story to Jalopnik or other big auto news sites.

Thanks. I have contacted them.

[Dinan3]

Sorry if I missed it. You mentioned that you have escalated this to BBB. What is on your request for resolution?

[legalaction]

I would definitely keep a client's deposit if they signed a document stating "partial payment" , and/or non-refundable deposit.

Just for your information, the salesperson gets nothing from a clients forfeited deposit. It's just principle to me if i state it's "partial payment, non-refundable" that the client doesn't receive it back. Everyone has their principles, so does the salesperson.

However, one thing i do agree in your case is that if it didn't state non-refundable, i do agree they should have given the deposit back to you.

First, in your original "making effort" comment on the Audi R8 case, you did not say your "effort" is conditional on any document or contract. You said " I've been in the industry over 10 years and based on principle I would have made an effort to keep the 2000 deposit if I held a r8 for 2 weeks". Instead of saying "based on a legal document". You can make any principles man. I am just not interested.

Second, it does not matter whether the salesperson receive any portion of the forfeited deposit. Salesperson is trying to use this to prevent customers from leaving. If successful, you do get commission. You can not prove that salesperson has no economic incentive to "make effort" on forfeiting the deposit. Your true principle is revealed from this kind of process.

I really tried not to make enemies but your comment does disturb me. I had a hard time differentiating what you are confused about from what you are intentionally trying to confuse others into thinking about. The fact that you have been in this industry for over 10 years disturbs me a little bit more.

[legalaction]

Sorry if I missed it. You mentioned that you have escalated this to BBB. What is on your request for resolution?

My request includes but is not limited to a refund. Also, it seems that BBB does not have any authority on criminal charges.

[Datsun]

Thanks. I have contacted them.

From here on it's just gonna be:

http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/pop%20corn/grand/pop_corn_gif.gif

I remember last year a guy had his Gallardo wrecked by a mechanic at an Audi dealer, who refused to compensate. He wrote about it on a forum and it trickled into other sites + blogs. IIRC After the dealer got some 'nice' publicity, he got his car replaced with a brand new R8.

[MindBomber]

First, in your original "making effort" comment on the Audi R8 case, you did not say your "effort" is conditional on any document or contract. You said " I've been in the industry over 10 years and based on principle I would have made an effort to keep the 2000 deposit if I held a r8 for 2 weeks". Instead of saying "based on a legal document". You can make any principles man. I am just not interested.

Second, it does not matter whether the salesperson receive any portion of the forfeited deposit. Salesperson is trying to use this to prevent customers from leaving. If successful, you do get commission. You can not prove that salesperson has no economic incentive to "make effort" on forfeiting the deposit. Your true principle is revealed from this kind of process.

I really tried not to make enemies but your comment does disturb me. I had a hard time differentiating what you are confused about from what you are intentionally trying to confuse others into thinking about. The fact that you have been in this industry for over 10 years disturbs me a little bit more.

It's no more of a stretch to say, that based on a customer forcing a business to incur a significant financial loss by backing out of a deal after a reasonable time frame to do so had expired, the salesperson should feel the business is entitled to fair compensation. I see nothing morally wrong in attempting to retain a deposit in the circumstances stated by BlackZ if it is done so legally, through a channel like small claims court. If I had a dealer hold a car for two weeks, then I chose to back out of the deal, I would leave the deposit in recognition of the costs they incurred doing so. Maybe my comment is disturbing too, and my family for instilling those morals in me.

[NSX]

subscribed.

[HonestTea]

http://imgur.com/tCp90.gif

[CorneringArtist]

http://mike100915.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/terrell-owens-vs-packers.jpg

[GLOW]

DEMAND A BRAND NEW 2012 NISSAN GTR.

failed by a guy named GTR, how did i not see that one coming

[legalaction]

It's no more of a stretch to say, that based on a customer forcing a business to incur a significant financial loss by backing out of a deal after a reasonable time frame to do so had expired, the salesperson should feel the business is entitled to fair compensation. I see nothing morally wrong in attempting to retain a deposit in the circumstances stated by BlackZ if it is done so legally, through a channel like small claims court. If I had a dealer hold a car for two weeks, then I chose to back out of the deal, I would leave the deposit in recognition of the costs they incurred doing so. Maybe my comment is disturbing too, and my family for instilling those morals in me.

I will say this first in case you forget, could you please post the link of the forum that you were talking about?

I find his comment disturbing exactly because he wants to confuse these different things together. Perhaps you are potentially a victim to this false logic.

Before I go on, take a few seconds and think about the following situation: You bought a $10 lottery ticket, the advertisement says "40 million", two days later, the results comes out you are not the that lucky, you lose the $10. Now is it moral to sue the lottery company to claim your $10 because you did not get the 40 million?

Purchase Agreement does not define the obligation to buy. It express the intent to buy and sell on both parties. Unless you have a legally effective nonrefundable deposit agreement, the dealership is bearing the cost. Why do you want to bear that cost in the R8 case? It is exactly because your got the chance to win a much more lucrative profit and commission. By not signing a nonrefundable deposit contract, you are exactly like buying a lottery ticket. You are betting on the customers' decision. If the deal did not through and you want to keep that deposit, again, without a nonrefundable deposit contract, your action is morally equivalent to suing the lottery company for not winning.

Some people just try to bomb others' mind by trying to confuse legal matters with moral matters. Also they are trying to confuse ex ante expectation with ex post result to convince you that it is morally acceptable. My family is also in business and we face this kind of situation everyday, sometimes we pay a cost to just get a chance to bid on a project. It is your cost in order to have the chance to get the business. My family's moral principle is: evaluate the cost and benefit beforehand, know your responsibility, do not shift your own cost to others afterwards. Especially, do not do it by committing crime.

[legalaction]

knowing the douchebags at regency nissan/infiniti, this doesn't surprise me a bit.

Would you mind sharing more stories about them? You can pm me if you feel it inappropriate to say it here.

[Ferra]

although I am all in favor of screwing with shady dealerships...I don't think the criminal forgery charge will ever hold...

They handwritten an extra note on your contract...the best you can argue is the term is therefore invalid and not legally binding.

Have you contacted the police? you can't sue someone for a criminal act yourself.... the crown needs to be involved.

[spoon.ek9]

i actually have a similar story to share regarding OpenRoad Toyota at the automall. busy right now though, stay tuned.

edit: story has been posted below!

[vafanculo]

you can forget about this thread blowing up. You already got your money back, and quite honestly the the bitching back and forth that is going on in this thread is gonna lose alot of people's interests.

when a thread blows up, its because there is no resolution as of yet, and the internets support you in getting the company to do whats right. In this case they already gave you back your money, so all that is left is to wait for what kind of disciplinary action is going to be taken (probably none) - and not an exciting situation for forum goers.

However, what you are doing is great for locals who were inquiring about purchasing a vehicle from them (good on you for that).

If you really want to make this thread huge, you need to post pictures, the convo, everything that will gain peoples interests.

[MindBomber]

Purchase Agreement does not define the obligation to buy. It express the intent to buy and sell on both parties. Unless you have a legally effective nonrefundable deposit agreement, the dealership is bearing the cost. Why do you want to bear that cost in the R8 case? It is exactly because your got the chance to win a much more lucrative profit and commission. By not signing a nonrefundable deposit contract, you are exactly like buying a lottery ticket. You are betting on the customers' decision. If the deal did not through and you want to keep that deposit, again, without a nonrefundable deposit contract, your action is morally equivalent to suing the lottery company for not winning.

Some people just try to bomb others' mind by trying to confuse legal matters with moral matters. Also they are trying to confuse ex ante expectation with ex post result to convince you that it is morally acceptable. My family is also in business and we face this kind of situation everyday, sometimes we pay a cost to just get a chance to bid on a project. It is your cost in order to have the chance to get the business. My family's moral principle is: evaluate the cost and benefit beforehand, know your responsibility, do not shift your own cost to others afterwards. Especially, do not do it by committing crime.

I removed the link from the aforementioned forum, as the entire intent of this thread has changed.

Purchasing a lottery ticket or making a financial investment in exchange for the opportunity to place a bid on a project are different stages of a business agreement, at a car dealership this would be equivalent to the cost of showing customers cars before any agreement to purchase is reached.

Holding a car with the value of $200k for two weeks after a agreement to purchase with a refundable deposit is signed, then to unexpectedly have the buyer cancel the purchase causes the dealership to incur a unreasonable financial loss. The dealership could then proceed to file a case against the former buyer in small claims court, arguing that a reasonable time frame to have the deal cancelled had expired and they should therefore be compensated. My business successfully sued a prospective client for more than a deposit in small claims court, because they backed out of a business deal at an extremely late stage causing us to incur a loss.

If a buyer were to back out of a car deal after a few days then those are entirely different circumstances.

[hillmar]

Been shopping for a new minivan recently and also was very confused about this deposit thing... Every dealership I've delt with required me to put a deposit before negotiation with the business manager... At one point I had 3000 dollars deposited between Toyota, Honda, and Nissan before I decided who had the best deal and gave the biggest discount over mrsp and who would throw in the most free stuff. At the end I chose Honda , and I got back my 2 deposits from Toyota and Nissan without a problem.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[legalaction]

I removed the link from the aforementioned forum, as the entire intent of this thread has changed.

Purchasing a lottery ticket or making a financial investment in exchange for the opportunity to place a bid on a project are different stages of a business agreement, at a car dealership this would be equivalent to the cost of showing customers cars before any agreement to purchase is reached.

Holding a car with the value of $200k for two weeks after a agreement to purchase with a refundable deposit is signed, then to unexpectedly have the buyer cancel the purchase causes the dealership to incur a unreasonable financial loss. The dealership could then proceed to file a case against the former buyer in small claims court, arguing that a reasonable time frame to have the deal cancelled had expired and they should therefore be compensated. My business successfully sued a prospective client for more than a deposit in small claims court, because they backed out of a business deal at an extremely late stage causing us to incur a loss.

If a buyer were to back out of a car deal after a few days then those are entirely different circumstances.

It is OK. My intention is still written in the title: " BEWARE", Some people in this industry do not mind going this low.

I do not know what kind of business you are doing and how "extremely late stage" is in your example. If it is written in a legal contract or there is a industry standard and regulation which is equivalent to a legal contract, you definitely have your right to claim your loss. However, my business involves non-standardized produced machinery project. Very like making a customized car. Even when your bid is successful, and your customer signs an agreement with you, before writing a contract explaining the technical details, rights and obligations, both parties can still back out. If the deal does not go through, both parties would incur loss, either in terms of time, or money, or other form of opportunity cost.

In the car purchasing case, if you signed a refundable deposit agreement, you agreed that the customer can back out and you will bear the cost. The benefit is that the customer let their guard down and make the decision faster. It is like driving a car without buying a car damage insurance, in case of an accident, you cannot expect ICBC pay for you. But the benefit is you pay less insurance fee each period.

I think we are both talking from our own personal experience and justify ourselves by analogies in previous posts, that is why I think taking about moral matters in cases like this is empty and confusing. But in this industry, there are standards. The R8 case is not my case. But you do not have the right to claim your loss if you signed a refundable deposit agreement. You can refer to the link in the first post and go to VSA website to see what the industry standard says on auto transaction deposits. Although I can not agree with you, I respect you for being objective. Now I want to end this discussion of the R8 case.

[legalaction]

although I am all in favor of screwing with shady dealerships...I don't think the criminal forgery charge will ever hold...

They handwritten an extra note on your contract...the best you can argue is the term is therefore invalid and not legally binding.

Have you contacted the police? you can't sue someone for a criminal act yourself.... the crown needs to be involved.

I will wait for the result of VSA's investigation first. I am a little pessimistic about what VSA can do. The dealership must have thought that the worst scenario would be that VSA forward the complaint and they just returned the deposit. Nothing happens. That makes them fear nothing. Like I said, if the result of VSA's investigation is not satisfactory, I will post the recorded conversation on the internet.

[legalaction]

you can forget about this thread blowing up. You already got your money back, and quite honestly the the bitching back and forth that is going on in this thread is gonna lose alot of people's interests.

when a thread blows up, its because there is no resolution as of yet, and the internets support you in getting the company to do whats right. In this case they already gave you back your money, so all that is left is to wait for what kind of disciplinary action is going to be taken (probably none) - and not an exciting situation for forum goers.

However, what you are doing is great for locals who were inquiring about purchasing a vehicle from them (good on you for that).

If you really want to make this thread huge, you need to post pictures, the convo, everything that will gain peoples interests.

I did not expect that this thread to blow up. My original intention is exactly to warn people how they are trying to control you and screw you. Losing even one perspective customer would cost more for them than taking my deposit. At least they have already lost one of my friends' business who is keen on buying a G37 when her current lease term ends. In fact, I cannot believe how stupid Rick Kingdon is. Or he just doesn't care. If I were the owner of Regency, I would fire him for these short-sighted actions. He is definitely not thinking about the owner's interest. Like people have said, Regency is not like before, they are now controlled by these goons and thugs, doing things worse than gangsters.

However, I will post the recorded conversation when I feel necessary. For those of you who are interested, just be patient.

[legalaction]

Been shopping for a new minivan recently and also was very confused about this deposit thing... Every dealership I've delt with required me to put a deposit before negotiation with the business manager... At one point I had 3000 dollars deposited between Toyota, Honda, and Nissan before I decided who had the best deal and gave the biggest discount over mrsp and who would throw in the most free stuff. At the end I chose Honda , and I got back my 2 deposits from Toyota and Nissan without a problem.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

That is how it is supposed to be working. Although the dealership I went to often do not require a deposit to negotiate. Deposits taken at any stage, before signing purchasing contract and transferring ownership, are refundable, unless a legally enforceable contract of nonrefundable deposit is signed. As people have said in previous posts, a deposit just shows "how serious you are".

[racerman88]

I would have asked for a copy of the agreement before I left that same day.
If it was me, I would point out the fact that I did not sign or initial to acknowledge the non-refundable deposit.

[legalaction]

I would have asked for a copy of the agreement before I left that same day.
If it was me, I would point out the fact that I did not sign or initial to acknowledge the non-refundable deposit.

Next time maybe I would.

I said the exactly the same thing. But Rick Kingdon still refused to give me my money back. He said " it was a legally binding contract, VSA will acknowledge it. You can go anywhere you like. VSA or go to court, I am not giving you the deposit back." Can you believe it?

If you go to Regency Infiniti and put down a deposit, chances are that no matter what kind of agreement you sign and no matter you get your copy or not, they will make you have a hard time getting it back. Because even if VSA notifies them about your complaint, they can just give you back you money and there is no more punishment for them. When punishment is small and profit is high, people can risk committing crimes.

Do not even give your credit card number to them. They can charge you money and say you agreed on it verbally and refused giving the money back to you. Then you have to go through the same process as I have done. Just be careful.

In the recorded conversation with the salesman, when I asked that salesperson "when did you write down 'DEPOSIT NONREFUNDABLE?'", he first said "It is not written, it's been verbally told you" while in fact he did not. Then I said "you never told me the deposit was nonrefundable, right?", he refrained and said "no, I did not". I then asked, "then who wrote the "DEPOSIT NONREFUNDABLE " on the agreement?" He said " I...seriously have no idea".

Rick Kingdon says that the salesman tends to forget,as they have too many customers and too many deals to keep track of. I guess Rick Kingdon is also good at forgetting what is legal and what is not. I will wait for VSA's investigation on these people who have amnesia. It is very contagious in Regency Infiniti. Maybe they need a doctor instead of a lawyer.

[Spartacus]

keep fighting the good fight =)

[parm104]

I cannot believe that this is still going on...At first I thought, oh well, this guy will make a little noise and get back what's rightfully his. Now that I'm reading more and more, I am nothing but frustrated with these [SLEAZY business tactics. As someone mentioned before, dealerships don't make a living off withholding deposits...No, they certainly don't, but holding a deposit certainly helps pay the bills.

These guys not only have horrible business ethics, but clearly their customer service is abysmal. I wish they could foresee the consequences of their actions because I truly hope that their business becomes negatively affected by this situation.

As some of you know, I've been recently searching for an Infiniti vehicle myself and have been dealing with a particular salesman over the phone. He's been keeping me up to date by telling me which cars are in stock. The next time I hear from him, I will ensure that I tell him that my business will not be conducted with their dealership.

On a side note, AutoWest gave me A+ service. Not only did the salesman help me out and explained the difference between a variety of models, but he also felt the need to introduce me to his sales manager. At that point, the sales manager shook my hand and said "Parm, thank you for giving us the opportunity to earn your business."

THAT is quality customer service.

[Presto]

^^^

Tell him you read it on Revscene, too. Assholio businesses need to know that pissing off customers are gonna have reverberating effects that will ripple for a long time, and cost them significant bucks. Revscene is a large forum, and their business name, plus a general keyword or two, will splash threads like this on the first page of Google results. I like how this thread starts off with BEWARE:. It's quite eye catching, and click-worthy ;)

[parm104]

^^^

Tell him you read it on Revscene, too. Assholio businesses need to know that pissing off customers are gonna have reverberating effects that will ripple for a long time, and cost them significant bucks. Revscene is a large forum, and their business name, plus a general keyword or two, will splash threads like this on the first page of Google results. I like how this thread starts off with BEWARE:. It's quite eye catching, and click-worthy ;)

Exactly...The emphasis will definitely be that I am simply ONE of MANY who are in the same boat, who feel the same way and who refuse to give them business...And hopefully, many more to follow.

[CorneringArtist]

I cannot believe that this is still going on...At first I thought, oh well, this guy will make a little noise and get back what's rightfully his. Now that I'm reading more and more, I am nothing but frustrated with these [SLEAZY business tactics. As someone mentioned before, dealerships don't make a living off withholding deposits...No, they certainly don't, but holding a deposit certainly helps pay the bills.

These guys not only have horrible business ethics, but clearly their customer service is abysmal. I wish they could foresee the consequences of their actions because I truly hope that their business becomes negatively affected by this situation.

As some of you know, I've been recently searching for an Infiniti vehicle myself and have been dealing with a particular salesman over the phone. He's been keeping me up to date by telling me which cars are in stock. The next time I hear from him, I will ensure that I tell him that my business will not be conducted with their dealership.

On a side note, AutoWest gave me A+ service. Not only did the salesman help me out and explained the difference between a variety of models, but he also felt the need to introduce me to his sales manager. At that point, the sales manager shook my hand and said "Parm, thank you for giving us the opportunity to earn your business."

THAT is quality customer service.

Just out of curiosity, who was the sales person who helped you? I believe I have a friend who works at AutoWest.

[legalaction]

keep fighting the good fight =)

Thanks for the encouragement.

^^^

Tell him you read it on Revscene, too. Assholio businesses need to know that pissing off customers are gonna have reverberating effects that will ripple for a long time, and cost them significant bucks. Revscene is a large forum, and their business name, plus a general keyword or two, will splash threads like this on the first page of Google results. I like how this thread starts off with BEWARE:. It's quite eye catching, and click-worthy ;)

Thanks. I was not very confident in my English so it took me a while to think about what title I should use. I am glad that you like it. It is both reassuring and encouraging.

I cannot believe that this is still going on...At first I thought, oh well, this guy will make a little noise and get back what's rightfully his. Now that I'm reading more and more, I am nothing but frustrated with these [SLEAZY business tactics. As someone mentioned before, dealerships don't make a living off withholding deposits...No, they certainly don't, but holding a deposit certainly helps pay the bills.

These guys not only have horrible business ethics, but clearly their customer service is abysmal. I wish they could foresee the consequences of their actions because I truly hope that their business becomes negatively affected by this situation.

As some of you know, I've been recently searching for an Infiniti vehicle myself and have been dealing with a particular salesman over the phone. He's been keeping me up to date by telling me which cars are in stock. The next time I hear from him, I will ensure that I tell him that my business will not be conducted with their dealership.

On a side note, AutoWest gave me A+ service. Not only did the salesman help me out and explained the difference between a variety of models, but he also felt the need to introduce me to his sales manager. At that point, the sales manager shook my hand and said "Parm, thank you for giving us the opportunity to earn your business."

THAT is quality customer service.

Thank you for that I have cited this in the first post. I hope more people in BC can read this and feel the same way. I did not cite the part that talked about another dealership, just to avoid misinterpretation. Hope you understand.

Exactly...The emphasis will definitely be that I am simply ONE of MANY who are in the same boat, who feel the same way and who refuse to give them business...And hopefully, many more to follow.

Well said.

[legalaction]

Rick Kingdon's public webpage on LinkedIn:
Rick Kingdon | LinkedIn (http://www.linkedin.com/in/rickkingdon)

Notice how he claimed himself as "Reputation for integrity, teamwork, results achievement and exceptional people skills." And his specialty includes " marketing strategy development". Probably he has developed this forging-threatening strategy, he should get a patent for that. But let me ask you Mr. Kingdon, do you expect to win money by bluffing all the way on a poker table? Man, you should "Know your limit, play safe".

[spoon.ek9]

alright, so here's what happened to an extended family member of mine at OpenRoad Toyota (Richmond Automall):

The extended family member (let's call him Tim), had just moved here from overseas and was looking to purchase a new vehicle for the family. He was considering the Rav4 and came upon an agreement with the sales person and signed some papers and left a deposit with the premise that it wasn't to purchase the vehicle just yet.

Fast-forward a week later and Tim has changed his mind. He ends up buying a new Caravan instead and informs the salesman he would like his deposit back. The sales manager (or GM, can't remember at the moment) now takes the phone and says to Tim "You signed papers saying you agreed to purchase the vehicle. The deposit is non-refundable." which of course makes no sense to Tim. The manager (David) goes on to say that "The car has been shipped here and cannot be returned."

So now Tim is confused and looks to me and his sister for help on the matter. He says he isn't familiar with how things work in Canada but still feels this isn't right. Now I make a personal visit to OpenRoad Toyota to see this manager David. He's a fat son of a bitch and is arrogant throughout the entire conversation trying to fool us into thinking this is a done deal and Tim cannot back out of it no matter what we say. So, we get up and head for the door. Just as we are about to leave, I think to myself "I want to see what Tim signed".

We go back and find David once more and ask him to show us the paper Tim signed. David gets his fat ass up from his desk with a smug look on his face like this is a waste of everyone's time. To our amazement, it takes David about 10-15 minutes to get back to us. We can see he found the paper, he's holding it in his hand. So wtf? Finally, he mopes back to his desk and shows us the paper. On the very bottom of the form, the salesman has circled and highlighted a hand written message that says:

"NOTHING PROMISED"

So at this point, I'm thinking in my head "Fuck you asshole, I just fucking caught you". I ask him point blank "Are you going to give us back the deposit or not?". Get this, he says "No." :seriously:

We get up and leave. I used to work at Honda so we head over there and I ask employees if they've ever heard of such a stupid situation and they all laugh at what an idiot this David guy is. About 10-15 minutes after leaving OpenRoad Toyota, I get a phone call from them. Some girl from accounting informs me that:

"Your deposit will be returned to you in the mail"

http://alltheragefaces.com/img/faces/png/determined-not-okay-smile.png That's right David, fuck you.

[Roach]

^ Sorry to hear about your experience at OpenRoad. When was this?

And although it was likely a bad experience with David, he is the person who inevitably issued the request that the deposit be refunded to you. Accounting has no power of that.

Kev

[spoon.ek9]

this was probably 2 years ago now. I know David requested the deposit be refunded but that's not important. It was going to happen either way and he could have at LEAST tried to be a man and apologize when he was CLEARLY wrong in every way imaginable. But instead, he pussies out and has a girl from accounting call me. I had never had such a ridiculous experience at a dealership before this. It was almost as if he felt he could bully a new immigrant into buying a car. Absolute douche bag thing to try and do.

[Roach]

Regrettable to hear. FYI David is no longer with OpenRoad.

And as a general reply to this subject, I've been working within the industry for three years now. Inevitably, the general problem has to more to do with certain individuals rather than a specific dealer group or store. Some members of the industry have inherited the "sleazy" tactics that were inherent decades ago.

As a consumer, I can completely understand the frustration that some people feel in purchasing a vehicle. It's a shame to hear this stuff still happens today.

Kev

[StylinRed]

haven't caught up with the thread yet

but you should forward this thread to the owner


and write a google review
Regency Infiniti (http://maps.google.ca/maps/place?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=regency+infiniti&fb=1&gl=ca&hq=regency+infiniti&hnear=0x548431320bd3b5b3:0xeb1bf3754c447ba6,Missio n,+BC&cid=2574842389768693274&ei=gyCJTsL_N4fUiALDqKSbDA&sa=X&oi=local_result&ct=placepage-link&resnum=4&ved=0CEAQ4gkwAw)
(we should all write a google review ;))

and contact Regency Auto Group about it Vancouver car dealer - Contact Regency Auto Group in British Columbia (http://www.regencyauto.com/contact)
and play up on Regency's Values

Our Philosophy

The Regency Auto Group strives to provide every individual with personal attention and care... Like a guest in our home!
Our Values

Live up to our commitment - Take pride in what we do - Treat all our guests as individuals - Communicate fairly, openly and honestly - Your satisfaction is our success!

in your message

you can be sure it'll be forwarded to the right ppl

[legalaction]

So at this point, I'm thinking in my head "Fuck you asshole, I just fucking caught you". I ask him point blank "Are you going to give us back the deposit or not?". Get this, he says "No." :seriously:



That is very interesting. Now we can see these people just want to give you a hard time without thinking about whether what they did is legal or not. As soon as you put down the deposit, they will try to control you and threaten you. I don't know how many people have been victims of this kind of scams. They are certainly not punished enough by the authority in this industry for doing this kind of things. It is shocking and disappointing.

[spoon.ek9]

well as Roach pointed out, it's normally a few bad apples that ruin it for the whole dealership. I'm very glad to hear that asshole David no longer works at OpenRoad. Since that incident, I've told countless people not to buy a Toyota there. Now I have no more reason to tell people that (I hope) :)

[legalaction]

Regrettable to hear. FYI David is no longer with OpenRoad.

And as a general reply to this subject, I've been working within the industry for three years now. Inevitably, the general problem has to more to do with certain individuals rather than a specific dealer group or store. Some members of the industry have inherited the "sleazy" tactics that were inherent decades ago.

As a consumer, I can completely understand the frustration that some people feel in purchasing a vehicle. It's a shame to hear this stuff still happens today.

Kev

I am a little confused about whether this is a individual action or not. I think other people reading this thread would also like to know. If the dealership makes it very clear to the manager that it is not acceptable to bully the customers, how dare they do so? They are not afraid of losing their jobs?

At least in my case, Rick Kingdon is the general sales manager and he says that he can represent the dealership. When I asked to see the general manager or the owner. He said "they will just let me deal with it and I have told you about my position. I have the full authority in this case."

[legalaction]

haven't caught up with the thread yet

but you should forward this thread to the owner


and write a google review
Regency Infiniti (http://maps.google.ca/maps/place?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=regency+infiniti&fb=1&gl=ca&hq=regency+infiniti&hnear=0x548431320bd3b5b3:0xeb1bf3754c447ba6,Missio n,+BC&cid=2574842389768693274&ei=gyCJTsL_N4fUiALDqKSbDA&sa=X&oi=local_result&ct=placepage-link&resnum=4&ved=0CEAQ4gkwAw)
(we should all write a google review ;))

and contact Regency Auto Group about it Vancouver car dealer - Contact Regency Auto Group in British Columbia (http://www.regencyauto.com/contact)
and play up on Regency's Values



in your message

you can be sure it'll be forwarded to the right ppl

Thanks. I have done it.

[legalaction]

well as Roach pointed out, it's normally a few bad apples that ruin it for the whole dealership. I'm very glad to hear that asshole David no longer works at OpenRoad. Since that incident, I've told countless people not to buy a Toyota there. Now I have no more reason to tell people that (I hope) :)

If a dealership do want to discipline their management and improve their service, we would definitely like to give them the credit. I am just not sure why the managers can do so fearlessly. I am so disappointed by the fact that there is so little discipline and punishment in this industry. Say you are a bank manager or money manager and you take money away from your customer's account, you will almost surely go to jail.

[spoon.ek9]

that's a good point. i suppose for some of them, they reach what's considered a high level in the industry and start to feel invulnerable. they become arrogant and conniving; anything to push that sale through.

[BlackZRoadster]

well as Roach pointed out, it's normally a few bad apples that ruin it for the whole dealership. I'm very glad to hear that asshole David no longer works at OpenRoad. Since that incident, I've told countless people not to buy a Toyota there. Now I have no more reason to tell people that (I hope) :)

openroad toyota sells the most in bc

i guess they must do something right other than David

[StylinRed]

when open road toyota was still barnet toyota (the port moody one)

the staff were such cocky douches and uninterested in even talking but i guess it didnt help that i was a teenager (they were just joking with one another in a corner) but even when i asked about the pricing of the car they replied with some ridiculous # about $10k over MSRP :fulloffuck: this was quite a long time ago i doubt any of them are still working there (about 10yrs ago before toyota introduced their set pricing)

not as bad as West Coast Toyota though in Maple Ridge went in with my mom to make a deal on my celica and the salesman was such a cock with his arrogant attitude that i simply said i had enough of it and we went to deal with another salesmen (on a different day), over the phone @ first, who was a really nice guy and we were going through with our deal perfectly and then i see him chatting with that cock from the other day and the sales manager and the nice salesman comes back and says sorry i cant go through with this deal anymore; asked why? and he just says that he cant

:seriously:

So went to Westminster Toyota, since i found out a celicagarage members dad owns it, and they're all great guys everyone was very welcoming and my salesman was an awesome guy (he ended up moving to a surrey toyota dealership though) bought my car there and to this day i still service my car out there even though West Coast is like 5mins away



cousin had a horror story @ Honda in Port Moody where they ripped him off, lied about the details of a car engine/packages/etc, but this was like 16yrs ago (holy shit im old)

[SkinnyPupp]

btw you should share your thoughts here as well Regency Infiniti Nissan Inc. - Automotive - North Vancouver | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/RegencyInfinitiNissan)

[MindBomber]

^Better yet, create a facebook page dedicated to the issue.

Regency likely has the ability to delete and edit posts on their page.

[Gt-R R34]

Having a hard time shifting through all the 8 pages looking for the updates.
Anyone have a coles notes?

To my understanding - OP got screwed/tried to get money back/taped conversations/Boss Rich Kingdon? says - fuck off no.

And that's the situation right now?

[bcrdukes]

Off topic and maybe not related or helpful but have any of you ever called customer care of the brand of vehicle you're purchasing? I know with BMW Canada, any sort of customer dissatisfaction and complaint it taken seriously and dealt with accordingly. It affects their dealership status from what I understand. I know a person who spoke to BMW Canada and had his matter taken care of..let's just say, above and beyond any kind of expectation. Perhaps every situation is dealt with on a case-by-case basis but it never hurts to try. After all, they want you as a customer.

[GLOW]

Having a hard time shifting through all the 8 pages looking for the updates.
Anyone have a coles notes?

To my understanding - OP got screwed/tried to get money back/taped conversations/Boss Rich Kingdon? says - fuck off no.

And that's the situation right now?

I think also:

-dealer calls and asks for credit card # to credit the amount back when OP makes a stink to various agencies and OP says hell no - you crooks ain't getting my card #
-manager in question still does not man up to his shady dealings and blames the salesman instead
-OP is continuing to try to fight the power! and see what consequences he can put on the manager in question

http://pachline.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/power_fist_11.gif

[UFO]

Having a hard time shifting through all the 8 pages looking for the updates.
Anyone have a coles notes?

To my understanding - OP got screwed/tried to get money back/taped conversations/Boss Rich Kingdon? says - fuck off no.

And that's the situation right now?

As far as I can tell, dealer offered OP the deposit back but OP is playing hardball and wanting to screw them harder by taking this to court and pressing charges of fraud. OP has denied giving the dealership his CC # so they can't even give him his money back at this point (FYI credit cards cannot be verbally charged. Retailers that do this put themselves in HUGE risk of a chargeback if there is no signed acknowledgement of the sale; they lose the product AND the funds) Seems to be a fight over principle and admission of fault at this point.

Waste of time IMO. I appreciate OP's fight to make everybody aware of these dealership tactics. But you have to know and understand these tactics prior to going into a dealership. NOT ONE dealership will ever have an impeccable record. You have to know their game and play along with it, but also know what your own rights are. Expect them to push the boundaries, maybe further than they should, but at the end of the day if you have done nothing wrong, you make yourself liable to nothing.

I don't go to dealerships much, but the times I have and have agreed to a deposit to get the negotiation process going, I KNOW the deposit is refundable if we cannot come to a deal. If we come to a deal, I sign the purchase agreement, and I leave without the deposit, I UNDERSTAND that the deposit should not be refundable. Legalities aside, although it may be my right to get my deposit back, why would I spend my time negotiating a deal to my satisfaction that we both agree to, leave the dealership without getting my deposit back, and then decide to change my mind a few days or even a few weeks after the fact (not including major events ie. unexpected emergency, loss of job, etc)? If I needed some time to think the deal through still, or actually wanted another car, I would sure as hell not leave the dealership without getting my deposit back. Maybe I am getting my morals and legal rights mixed up...

[Glove]

I kinda wanna go around to dealerships giving deposits now, then taking them back,

just to see which ones are good or bad, that way il know which ones to buy from

[Rich Sandor]

^ Or instead of wasting your time and everyone else's time, when you actually ARE ready to buy a car, you can ask if the deposit is refundable or not.

Our dealer, for example, does not take deposits. We do not take 'deposits' to hold a vehicle while a customer hums and haws for days, and we lose the opportunity to sell it to another customer.

We do take non-refundable 'partial payments' on cars where a deal has been agreed to by both parties, and the customer is ready to purchase the vehicle, but is unable to pick up the vehicle that day. And in that case, we make it clear that it is a non-refundable partial payment.

(and even though we say it's non-refundable, odds are if the customer asks nicely we will still refund it.)

[spoon.ek9]

UFO:

in my experience, the dealership wasn't able (or willing) to give back my deposit immediately (even though i used cash as a deposit). it might work if you ask for it back on the exact same day you put the deposit down. i haven't tried that before.

[legalaction]

that's a good point. i suppose for some of them, they reach what's considered a high level in the industry and start to feel invulnerable. they become arrogant and conniving; anything to push that sale through.

That is exactly what I am shocked for. You hardly find people so undisciplined in other industries.

when open road toyota was still barnet toyota (the port moody one)

the staff were such cocky douches and uninterested in even talking but i guess it didnt help that i was a teenager (they were just joking with one another in a corner) but even when i asked about the pricing of the car they replied with some ridiculous # about $10k over MSRP :fulloffuck: this was quite a long time ago i doubt any of them are still working there (about 10yrs ago before toyota introduced their set pricing)

not as bad as West Coast Toyota though in Maple Ridge went in with my mom to make a deal on my celica and the salesman was such a cock with his arrogant attitude that i simply said i had enough of it and we went to deal with another salesmen (on a different day), over the phone @ first, who was a really nice guy and we were going through with our deal perfectly and then i see him chatting with that cock from the other day and the sales manager and the nice salesman comes back and says sorry i cant go through with this deal anymore; asked why? and he just says that he cant

:seriously:

So went to Westminster Toyota, since i found out a celicagarage members dad owns it, and they're all great guys everyone was very welcoming and my salesman was an awesome guy (he ended up moving to a surrey toyota dealership though) bought my car there and to this day i still service my car out there even though West Coast is like 5mins away



cousin had a horror story @ Honda in Port Moody where they ripped him off, lied about the details of a car engine/packages/etc, but this was like 16yrs ago (holy shit im old)

It is frustrating to know nothing really changed in this industry for so long. 16 years ago, people in my country only knew Honda as a motorcycle company and we only had three kinds of family cars on the road. It is so hard and slow to have any improvement here and people generally seem not interested and taking it for granted. Highly developED country.

[legalaction]

btw you should share your thoughts here as well Regency Infiniti Nissan Inc. - Automotive - North Vancouver | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/RegencyInfinitiNissan)

Thanks, I will do it.

^Better yet, create a facebook page dedicated to the issue.

Regency likely has the ability to delete and edit posts on their page.

Thank you for the reminder. I guess they will.

Off topic and maybe not related or helpful but have any of you ever called customer care of the brand of vehicle you're purchasing? I know with BMW Canada, any sort of customer dissatisfaction and complaint it taken seriously and dealt with accordingly. It affects their dealership status from what I understand. I know a person who spoke to BMW Canada and had his matter taken care of..let's just say, above and beyond any kind of expectation. Perhaps every situation is dealt with on a case-by-case basis but it never hurts to try. After all, they want you as a customer.

I have forwarded the VSA complaint to ININITI CANADA but no reply yet.

I think also:

-dealer calls and asks for credit card # to credit the amount back when OP makes a stink to various agencies and OP says hell no - you crooks ain't getting my card #
-manager in question still does not man up to his shady dealings and blames the salesman instead
-OP is continuing to try to fight the power! and see what consequences he can put on the manager in question

http://pachline.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/power_fist_11.gif

Yes the first stage is waiting for VSA's investigation result. We have to be patient.

[legalaction]

But you have to know and understand these tactics prior to going into a dealership. NOT ONE dealership will ever have an impeccable record. You have to know their game and play along with it, but also know what your own rights are.

Yes thanks I knew it beforehand and this is exactly how I play the game. Or I would be intimidated into buying their cars or losing my money. Don't you think that " NOT ONE dealership will ever have an impeccable record" is a little abnormal?

I kinda wanna go around to dealerships giving deposits now, then taking them back,

just to see which ones are good or bad, that way il know which ones to buy from

Yes if a lot of people do this just as a test, maybe this whole deposit convention in this industry could come to an end. I remember reading a research on tips and service quality by surveying travelers around the world. Contrary to our beliefs, it turns out that tips are negatively affecting service quality. The country for which service quality is highest rated by travelers has no tipping convention(some restaurants will fire the waiter for accepting tips), and that country is Japan. If VSA has the data, I would be happy to do a research about the effect of taking deposit on auto sales.

^ Or instead of wasting your time and everyone else's time, when you actually ARE ready to buy a car, you can ask if the deposit is refundable or not.

Our dealer, for example, does not take deposits. We do not take 'deposits' to hold a vehicle while a customer hums and haws for days, and we lose the opportunity to sell it to another customer.

We do take non-refundable 'partial payments' on cars where a deal has been agreed to by both parties, and the customer is ready to purchase the vehicle, but is unable to pick up the vehicle that day. And in that case, we make it clear that it is a non-refundable partial payment.

(and even though we say it's non-refundable, odds are if the customer asks nicely we will still refund it.)

As we discussed in previous cases, it is very clear no matter you ask or not and no matter what you agreed on, as soon as you put down your money, some of these guys will give you a hard time getting it back.

What your dealership does seems to be a very reasonable process and why does VSA not make it a standard procedure to follow?

[quasi]

Just read through this thread. I've never put a deposit down on the new vehicles I've purchased and after reading this thread I never will. I don't really so the point if I'm buying the car I'll buy it and sign the papers right there and call it done. If haven't made up my mind yet I'm going to keep shopping. If that means I miss out on some vehicle that gets sold in the mean time, oh wells.

OP, I appreciate what you're doing and I hope something good comes out of it.

[SkinnyPupp]

I remember when I got my RSX, there was a "cooldown period" or something after I paid my deposit. I think it's a Honda Finance policy or something, where if you pay a deposit, you have an automatic 24 hours to be able to ask for a refund. But this also means you can't get your car for 24 hours either. So we just dated the payment for 24 hours prior :)

If I changed my mind, I would have lost the deposit, but at least I knew the terms going in.

[legalaction]

Just read through this thread. I've never put a deposit down on the new vehicles I've purchased and after reading this thread I never will. I don't really so the point if I'm buying the car I'll buy it and sign the papers right there and call it done. If haven't made up my mind yet I'm going to keep shopping. If that means I miss out on some vehicle that gets sold in the mean time, oh wells.

OP, I appreciate what you're doing and I hope something good comes out of it.

Thank you. A response like this makes me feel it very worthwhile doing what I am doing.

I remember when I got my RSX, there was a "cooldown period" or something after I paid my deposit. I think it's a Honda Finance policy or something, where if you pay a deposit, you have an automatic 24 hours to be able to ask for a refund. But this also means you can't get your car for 24 hours either. So we just dated the payment for 24 hours prior :)

If I changed my mind, I would have lost the deposit, but at least I knew the terms going in.

It is a very interesting policy and if you search "cooling-off period" you can find more related information about this. Here is the VSA guide for this:

Industry Questions - The Motor Vehicle Sales Authority of British Columbia (http://www.mdcbc.com/salesperson-faq.htm#Cooling_off)

I also posted a VSA's guide on deposit in the first post. If you follow these rules, I think both the buyers and sellers' rights are protected by VSA. However, I still do not understand why they are not punished enough when they fail to comply. Especially in the case when all evidence is against them.

[!SG]

side track, did you create an account on RS with the username you chose to create this sole thread?

[legalaction]

side track, did you create an account on RS with the username you chose to create this sole thread?

Yes I did. It is kind of obvious.

[Death2Theft]

Serious to god I dont know why people ever waste time putting deposit down on cookie cutter cars. I mean for an exotic i'd understand.

[legalaction]

Serious to god I dont know why people ever waste time putting deposit down on cookie cutter cars. I mean for an exotic i'd understand.

So u r never asked by the salesman to put down a deposit? As some people had pointed out, some dealers even request a deposit for negotiating the price. I also think it is a stupid convention but it seems that most dealers do this for all kinds of reasons.

[!SG]

so then, has this problem been resolved as of yet?

[legalaction]

so then, has this problem been resolved as of yet?

I have not got the refund yet though they claimed they would do it. Also, VSA said they would investigate whether the dealership has compliance problem after they receive the dealer's response. People here mostly believe VSA will not give them further punishment. So in an industry like this, we have to be careful if they will not be punished for even forging the document and threatening the consumers. Most likely, they will continue doing this and more victims will be produced.

[GLOW]

i wonder if there should be an official RS "shitlist" thread for salesmen for ppl to share their experiences with. of a certain person has multiple reports from RS members it would be a good indicator of whom to stay away from, since i think it's usually the individual and not the dealership that gives people trouble no?

just a thought.

[spoon.ek9]

^ personally, i'd say that's not a bad idea but it will definitely bring a huge shit storm towards RS management. so.... yeah, no :)

[tiger_handheld]

^ personally, i'd say that's not a bad idea but it will definitely bring a huge shit storm towards RS management. so.... yeah, no :)

Last time I read the disclaimer, RS nor its management was responsible for the opinions and content submitted by it's members. It might hurt sponsorship sales from that particular company - but does RS really want to be associated with that type of business? I think not.

[BlackZRoadster]

Last time I read the disclaimer, RS nor its management was responsible for the opinions and content submitted by it's members. It might hurt sponsorship sales from that particular company - but does RS really want to be associated with that type of business? I think not.

Guess what, openroad sponsors too, and someone earlier had a beef with openroad toyota.

So are you saying RS is bad by associating with openroad group?

Openroad is one of the best companies in the auto industry FYI

[GLOW]

well that's why i said the list would be for individual salesmen that have given poor experiences to customers, and not dealerships themselves.

i was just typing out loud anyways and threw the idea out there. carry on.

[legalaction]

I thank RS for giving me the opportunity to discuss this issue. I can totally understand the dilemma that the management may face if they get pressure from the sponsors. For this post only, I will take away my case for a moment, try to objective and just talk about business:

In fact it all comes down to what type of business you want to do. Some people make money by threatening others, some make money by helping others prevented from being threatened. If we have a "hall of shame" of shady dealers, be it individuals or companies, it will certainly promote RS's publicity and influence. Then, some dealerships can reply by saying "we do clean business", or promote "no deposit", "no hidden terms" or "our deposit is 100% refundable". In this industry, the products are so homogeneous and it is hard to differentiate yourself from others. Now, this could be one of the things that you can easily do to set you apart. A previous post from someone working at Openroad said "FYI, David is not with us anymore." Compared to Regency's arrogance, that simple "I care" kind of response had earned a little bit of my respect. If a salesman fails to comply to the professional ethics, the dealership can also punish him to earn customers' trust.

By providing a platform like this, RS can earn the trust from the consumers, gain publicity and attract more sponsorship. It is a "win-win-win" situation for the consumers, RS, and the good dealerships. RS may become a game changer, who knows? From some mods' response, I think we share the same value. Business grows by people cooperating and helping each other, not by ripping each other off.

I would also be happy to see that Regency pays the management some money to delete this thread altogether. For the management, that might be a good "bird-in-hand" although I think it will hurt the long-term interest of RS. However, judging from the arrogance that they have expressed, I highly doubt that could happen. They just don't give a sh*t, not even to VSA, let alone RS.

[Death2Theft]

I dont deal with the salesman as every niggle and jiggle on price would have to go thru their "manager" anyways. Unless it's an exotic I'm not really the kinda guy that goes ooooh I better get this new suv before the jones do!
Having multiple cars too helps. If one dealership wont sell me what i want without a deposit, I dont mind waiting or going to the next one.
So u r never asked by the salesman to put down a deposit? As some people had pointed out, some dealers even request a deposit for negotiating the price. I also think it is a stupid convention but it seems that most dealers do this for all kinds of reasons.

[tiger_handheld]

Guess what, openroad sponsors too, and someone earlier had a beef with openroad toyota.

So are you saying RS is bad by associating with openroad group?

Openroad is one of the best companies in the auto industry FYI

If there were multiple users complaining about piss poor services from openroad - i would consider them bad. But they are one of the best in the industry because they are quick to resolve customer issues and learn from them. In the 8-9 pages of this thread, there are atleast 2-3 complains in addition to the OP's issue.

[!SG]

let me play devils advocate here a bit.

OP has situation at dealership that does not go his way.
OP creates new account to rant about a situation that happened to him/her at a dealership.
OP's choice in username doesnt actually really help in situation.
If situation didnt happen, would OP be on RS in the first place?
Is OP using this action because he is expressing his distaste, or as him trump card to get things his/her way? (i hope this isnt the case, then you are no different than the load mainlander at futureshop creating scene, and staff there are quick to jump in to solve the situation just to keep from having a scene happen)

Right now, as it stands, its OP's word that all of this can be based on. I would take a picture/scan the original signed deposit contract, but block out info like the customers name, address, contact number, to justify his argument.

everyone was quick to jump in the conversation to support the OP, in most cases, i would as well, however, without supporting facts and documents, the fact that a NEW USER ACCOUNT was created SOLEY to rant, its all one sided hearsay at the moment.

with that being said, deposit should be returned unless the deposit was for a special ordered vehicle, in that case, customer should not be able to back out.

[legalaction]

I dont deal with the salesman as every niggle and jiggle on price would have to go thru their "manager" anyways. Unless it's an exotic I'm not really the kinda guy that goes ooooh I better get this new suv before the jones do!
Having multiple cars too helps. If one dealership wont sell me what i want without a deposit, I dont mind waiting or going to the next one.

Very helpful. So now I know it is not really a convention. I thought it was a convention here to take deposit and I was just trying to fit into this Canadian culture.

[legalaction]

let me play devils advocate here a bit.

OP has situation at dealership that does not go his way.
OP creates new account to rant about a situation that happened to him/her at a dealership.
OP's choice in username doesnt actually really help in situation.
If situation didnt happen, would OP be on RS in the first place?
Is OP using this action because he is expressing his distaste, or as him trump card to get things his/her way? (i hope this isnt the case, then you are no different than the load mainlander at futureshop creating scene, and staff there are quick to jump in to solve the situation just to keep from having a scene happen)

Right now, as it stands, its OP's word that all of this can be based on. I would take a picture/scan the original signed deposit contract, but block out info like the customers name, address, contact number, to justify his argument.

everyone was quick to jump in the conversation to support the OP, in most cases, i would as well, however, without supporting facts and documents, the fact that a NEW USER ACCOUNT was created SOLEY to rant, its all one sided hearsay at the moment.

with that being said, deposit should be returned unless the deposit was for a special ordered vehicle, in that case, customer should not be able to back out.

1. I guess what you are trying to say is that my credibility is lowered by the fact that my user account is new. I can understand your concern, and as I said, once VSA's investigation result is out, I will probably post the purchase agreement and recorded conversation. But I guess I can do the purchase agreement before that, stay tuned.

2. I did not sign a deposit contract. And as I have said, deposit can be returned even when it is a special order, in the case when no terms and conditions in the deposit contract are stated and agreed upon in written. For the details, please refer to the VSA's explanation in the first post.

3. Just as a kindly reminder, I know this is a sensitive matter so I do not want to be offensive: Using words like "mainlander" just reflects that you or your parents immigrated from Hongkong/Taiwan, probably Hongkong because some Taiwanese people often do not consider themselves Chinese. I can understand your bias considering the snobbish side of Canadian immigration policy: they select some immigrants solely based on their wealth, and all your judgment is possibly based on that kind of selection bias. But anyone might"create a scene" at Futureshop, not only mainlander. Maybe you saw it once or twice. But from my personal experience, you do not have to create a scene to get good service at futureshop. I guess you just use the "mainlander" unintentionally.

I am used to this kind of stuff since I am from China. For the same kind of annoying uncivilized behavior, if you are from Guangzhou, you probably use "northerners"; If you are from Shanghai, you probably use "peasants"; if you are from Beijing, you probably use "those immigrants(people who moved to Beijing for a better job)". This regional discrimination is very special in the world. You see it happen in other countries but not quite as severe. It is very interesting. As an American-born Hongkong actor pointed out, "Chinese is an interesting nation, they discriminate themselves." And also, even when they are in another country.

[legalaction]

The Purchase Agreement that I signed and then Rick Kingdon singed and altered. They only gave me this photocopy when I requested several days later.

[Jgresch]

The salesman filled that out with you? How come
it doesn't even list the desposit/down payment amount lol...
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[legalaction]

The salesman filled that out with you? How come
it doesn't even list the desposit/down payment amount lol...
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

In the recorded conversation, the salesman said "I wrote down the numbers, you signed it, then my manager signed it". I asked " then who wrote 'DEPOST NONREFUNDABLE' down?". He said " I seriously have no idea".

I also thought it was stupid. But I think they have the guts to threaten me with this because they believe that the worst case scenario is just giving me the refund. VSA said the file had been forwarded to a compliance officer, and he will contact me once he has reviewed the file.

[Jgresch]

Was this a factory order? Or was it on their lot?

Was there another worksheet that he filled out for you before this? I find it weird that the sales person fills out a bill of sale. I'm pretty sure that they do it this way to make people feel like they've already signed the contract and are committed. Hell there isn't even a VIN on it lol

This stuff isn't really relevant to your case, I'm just curious.

[quasi]

I'm no handwritting expert but that non refundable def looks like it was written by someone else other then the person who filled out the original document.

[legalaction]

Was this a factory order? Or was it on their lot?

Was there another worksheet that he filled out for you before this? I find it weird that the sales person fills out a bill of sale. I'm pretty sure that they do it this way to make people feel like they've already signed the contract and are committed. Hell there isn't even a VIN on it lol

This stuff isn't really relevant to your case, I'm just curious.

It was on their lot. I thought there used to a work sheet but they did not show me afterwards. Yes, I also thought there wasn't even a VIN so which vehicle were you talking about? It only has Rick Kingdon's initials instead of mine, how can you say you have told me? But Rick Kingdon still refused giving me my money back. Very brave.

[legalaction]

I'm no handwritting expert but that non refundable def looks like it was written by someone else other then the person who filled out the original document.

The number was written by the salesman but the "DEPOSIT NONREFUNDABLE" was written by Rick Kingdon.

[spoon.ek9]

I'm no handwritting expert but that non refundable def looks like it was written by someone else other then the person who filled out the original document.

it's most definitely different writing. no doubt about it.

[GLOW]

I'm no handwritting expert but that non refundable def looks like it was written by someone else other then the person who filled out the original document.

:ahwow:
didn't even bother to try to make it look similar
:seriously:

lol

[!SG]

mainlander is name used to describe anyone from the mainland of china. usually can tell via accent. but if it take offense to it, then i appologize.

of course i question your motives. no one goes and creates a new username. either youve never been here before, or you have, but dont want to be linked to any post that is searchable. everyone knows its always about face, and im sure if the news cared, you'd be on tv ranting about it, thus the next easy step is to go onto an online car community, where opinions can easily be swayed with selective facts given.

What i asked for, which helps you in your case, was a simple picture of the deposit documents. this will aid you in your case.

and as for seeing it once or twice, more like a couple dozen. actually its fairly entertaining to watch, just gotta remember to whip out the phone to record the video.


you never got a copy of the original purchase agreement????

well good thing you posted, and good thing you blocked out ur personal info! good work! more evidence to get the deposit back.





3. Just as a kindly reminder, I know this is a sensitive matter so I do not want to be offensive: Using words like "mainlander" just reflects that you or your parents immigrated from Hongkong/Taiwan, probably Hongkong because some Taiwanese people often do not consider themselves Chinese. I can understand your bias considering the snobbish side of Canadian immigration policy: they select some immigrants solely based on their wealth, and all your judgment is possibly based on that kind of selection bias. But anyone might"create a scene" at Futureshop, not only mainlander. Maybe you saw it once or twice. But from my personal experience, you do not have to create a scene to get good service at futureshop. I guess you just use the "mainlander" unintentionally.

[legalaction]

mainlander is name used to describe anyone from the mainland of china. usually can tell via accent. but if it take offense to it, then i appologize.

of course i question your motives. no one goes and creates a new username. either youve never been here before, or you have, but dont want to be linked to any post that is searchable. everyone knows its always about face, and im sure if the news cared, you'd be on tv ranting about it, thus the next easy step is to go onto an online car community, where opinions can easily be swayed with selective facts given.

What i asked for, which helps you in your case, was a simple picture of the deposit documents. this will aid you in your case.

and as for seeing it once or twice, more like a couple dozen. actually its fairly entertaining to watch, just gotta remember to whip out the phone to record the video.


you never got a copy of the original purchase agreement????

well good thing you posted, and good thing you blocked out ur personal info! good work!

1. That is true. I am not a regular RS user. I came here just for reminding local auto consumers. My motive is of course not like a saint, I want they get punished, not like I want to be a volunteer educator for VSA. But my motive does not mean result. Your motive for creating a forum or website was probably making money, but the result is that it can provide a good online community for auto enthusiasts. Market economy works by assuming people have selfish motives yet they still do the good things and find a way to benefit each other. If you want every person act on altruistic motives and you want the society works that way, congratulations, you have found communism.

2. While the word is OK, it is at least an unintentional over-generalization to associate a particular kind of action with a group of people which has 1.3 billion population.

But I am OK with it, I saw more of this in China. I often treat it like Russel Peters' comedy with my smile. When my friends in China asked me "do they discriminate Chinese?" I always answer, "it is not as severe as the kind of discrimination you'll see within China between regions, between locals and immigrants, between urban people and agricultural people, or between the rich and the poor." That is the part that I like about Canada. That part is, I think, the meaning of true civilization.

3. No, I have seen it. But I don't have it. Thanks very much for everything.

[legalaction]

it's most definitely different writing. no doubt about it.

:ahwow:
didn't even bother to try to make it look similar
:seriously:

lol

Yeah. Now Rick Kingdon said that the salesman forgot showing me that and forgot giving me the copy.

[legalaction]

VSA comliance officer has made her decision. She said it was not recommended to use this kind of purchase agreement. All they can do is to issue a warning to the dealership, try to educate them and give them a copy of the recommended deposit contract. She refused to answer my question on whether this is a legal contract. She said it was "not recommended". There is nothing more they can do.

So beware, they can easily get away with this type of behavior. They will keep using this as a tactic to trap the customers.

[BlackZRoadster]

Nice result, im glad it turned out good for both parties at the end.

[legalaction]

Nice result, im glad it turned out good for both parties at the end.

Sure. You can be assured that the worst outcome is just returning the deposit. You can do whatever you want to do now.

[legalaction]

UPDTAE:

1. I got an official letter from VSA yesterday which says they have resolved the issue. The dealership has refunded me the money.

2. I bought the same vehicle from another Infiniti dealership 3 weeks ago. There are two things I like about them more than Regency: first, they make it very clear that the deposit is refundable; second, for similar price as I got from Regency, I got the technology package. The price difference is about $3000. So Regency sucks in both customer service and price.

3. Any dealership/individual could do this to their customers. They just want to screw you although they know they will give you the refund. They can do this because the punishment from VSA is too small. So do not put down any deposit even when they say it is refundable.

I want to thank people here on RS. You guys make this process not a hard time but rather entertaining. Both those who supported/helped me and who tried to argue with me. I hope this thread can give local consumers more information. Especially for new immigrants and international students. I might do a Chinese version of this on Vansky.

[Presto]

Thanks for the update. Glad things worked out for you.

[LSF22]

Good to know things worked out!

And have fun with your new toy.

Post up some pics soon! :p

[spoon.ek9]

good to know you got your money back. i'm not surprised the dealership wasn't punished, but it's still disappointing that this is something VSA deems as an acceptable practice. perhaps they don't have the power to punish the dealership or is that wishful thinking on my part?

[Rich Sandor]

The VSA can only suspend licences or levy fines when there has been an actual violation of the Motor Dealer Act. For example, fines for dealers operating without a licence, or licence suspensions for dealers who have been convicted of acts contrary to the motor dealer act.

The VSA will not fine dealers just based on a minor complaint from a customer. The VSA does employ people such as ex-dealers who understand the dealer's side of the business and they understand that sometimes customers can be totally whacko as well.

[racerman88]

happy ending!!!

[UFO]

^happy ending could have happened weeks ago as the dealership had already offered to refund the deposit. OP just wanted to drag this out and handcuff the dealership with the VSA threat.



2. ...first, they make it very clear that the deposit is refundable;

3. So do not put down any deposit even when they say it is refundable.



So, did you have to put down a deposit at the dealership you eventually purchased your vehicle? Surely they wouldn't have seriously talked pricing with you unless you had...

:troll:

[legalaction]

Good to know things worked out!

And have fun with your new toy.

Post up some pics soon! :p

Thanks. I am very satisfied with the new car.

good to know you got your money back. i'm not surprised the dealership wasn't punished, but it's still disappointing that this is something VSA deems as an acceptable practice. perhaps they don't have the power to punish the dealership or is that wishful thinking on my part?

Yes I was a little disappointed. The VSA compliance officer said the dealership's procedure is "not recommended" and "need a little education". And that is all they can do.

Thanks for the update. Glad things worked out for you.

Thank you.

[legalaction]

The VSA can only suspend licences or levy fines when there has been an actual violation of the Motor Dealer Act. For example, fines for dealers operating without a licence, or licence suspensions for dealers who have been convicted of acts contrary to the motor dealer act.

The VSA will not fine dealers just based on a minor complaint from a customer. The VSA does employ people such as ex-dealers who understand the dealer's side of the business and they understand that sometimes customers can be totally whacko as well.

So the Motor Dealer Act says nothing about altering a contract or forging an agreement? But from the compliance officer's response, I can see that VSA is a perfect textbook example of regulatory capture. If you are not familiar with this concept, please search it on WIKIPEDIA. So it is normal and it is a problem with every modern society, but if people are interested, they can change this. That is how the "occupy wall street" thing came out.

[legalaction]

^happy ending could have happened weeks ago as the dealership had already offered to refund the deposit. OP just wanted to drag this out and handcuff the dealership with the VSA threat.



So, did you have to put down a deposit at the dealership you eventually purchased your vehicle? Surely they wouldn't have seriously talked pricing with you unless you had...

:troll:

No I got the money two days after I post the compliance officer's decision but I just updated this thread today because they sent me the official letter of resolution.

No I did not have to put down a deposit to negotiate the price. I just negotiated the price via phone, gave them my credit card information for deposit, and picked up the car the next day.

[Rich Sandor]

So the Motor Dealer Act says nothing about altering a contract or forging an agreement? But from the compliance officer's response, I can see that VSA is a perfect textbook example of regulatory capture. If you are not familiar with this concept, please search it on WIKIPEDIA. So it is normal and it is a problem with every modern society, but if people are interested, they can change this. That is how the "occupy wall street" thing came out.

I've taken another look at the purchase agreement that you posted.

Just a few lines above where you signed, IT IS CLEARLY WRITTEN:

"Deposits, partial payments, and down payments are non-refundable."

The fact that the manger wrote it in, again, by hand after you've already signed it, doesn't mean that the document was forged or altered. He was just repeating something that was already there.

Did you even bother to read the purchase agreement before you signed it?

[Rich Sandor]

In my earlier posts on page 3, I originally thought that the paper you had signed was just an "offer to purchase" or "purchase worksheet" - which is really not a contract per se. (at that time, you had not posted the image)

But now that I see it, it clearly is a purchase AGREEMENT - which means you are AGREEING to purchase the vehicle. It is NOT an "OFFER" to purchase or a "payment worksheet" Technically it is a legally binding contract, which you signed, which DOES have a section that clearly says deposits are non-refundable.

That said, the validity of a contract is very easy to dispute in court. For example, if the contract states that a deposit is non-refundable, but the salesperson says that it IS refundable, then it would be easy to argue that the contract is void, because it is not the same as what you were told you are signing.

If you are unhappy with the resolution of the VSA, remember that the only things it can enforce, are the laws. It cannot enforce good business practice, it can only "encourage" it.

[achiam]

Completely off-topic, but I was wondering -- if a person came into a dealership with like, $100K in cash, could a dealership legally accept it as payment? (I'm not sure if they have to report cash over a certain amount to stem criminals?)

[Rich Sandor]

I do believe we have to report cash transactions over $10k in cash to the government.

There is no reason why we would not accept cash, in fact I'm not even sure if a business can legally deny cash.

I have had buyers pay with cash on several occasions, although nothing over $50,000.

(by the way, $100,000 in hundreds is a really phat wad of cash. Its like a solid brick of $100 bills.)

[Redlines_Daily]

I have a friend who bought a 650i with cash. Dealership knew something was fishy, but they didnt care..they even encouraged my friends "associates" (term the dealer used) to come buy too and assured them there wouldn't be any "problems"... -_-

[legalaction]

I've taken another look at the purchase agreement that you posted.

Just a few lines above where you signed, IT IS CLEARLY WRITTEN:

"Deposits, partial payments, and down payments are non-refundable."

The fact that the manger wrote it in, again, by hand after you've already signed it, doesn't mean that the document was forged or altered. He was just repeating something that was already there.

Did you even bother to read the purchase agreement before you signed it?

Thank you for pointing that out. I have to admit that I went to many dealerships before I went to Regency, all of them saying deposit is refundable. So I let my guard down and take that as default. So this is exactly why Regency (not a particular individual ) is shady.

As we know, to make this contract legally binding, they have to let me read it, with my initial on the terms and give me a copy of that. Remember the salesman did not even know the deposit was nonrefundable. Rick Kingdon obviously knew that this would not be a legally binding contract so he wrote that note afterwards.

Or wait, maybe he was so stupid that he did not even know the hidden nonrefundable terms were there already. That is why Regency is shady in drafting these agreements. But Rick Kingdon was only there for months and he may not get used to how to use Regency's tricks.

Another thing is there were only price on the agreement and no VIN numbers. I do not even know which one I am purchasing. There are so many things to make this thing not legally binding. If you look at the VSA guidance, it violated many aspects of a good deposit contract. (separate contracts, initials as consent, clear definition, terms and conditions of deposit)

VSA said they would give them a "recommended" version of deposit contract. And said the dealership "need a little education". I have seen other dealerships' contract and procedure of purchase so I believe Regency is doing this intentionally. An easy way to avoid this is just do not go there.

I find this case more interesting than before after you pointed this out. If Rick Kingdon did not alter the contract and just pointed at these hidden terms, I might not say they altered the contract, but just the contract is not legal under VSA's standard. And I might have not got so pissed off or took that as my negligence. I might even have negotiated another price with them. So the conclusion is that Regency is full of shady scams, but Rick Kingdon is too stupid to effectively use them to control the customers. I just want people like me beware: they want to screw you, do not put down any deposit. But even if you have put down the deposit and they want to control you, you can complain to VSA and get the money back.

The VSA's guidance also gives a bottom line：Even when there is a well written contract says it is nonrefundable, it might in fact be refundable. For example, the dealership must prove that they have incurred cost to hold the vehicle for a long time or paid the cost of modification. Or, if they fail to deliver the specified vehicle.(remember, in my case, no VIN number was specified)

[G35_]

Good to know, hope it all works out

[UFO]

Just got a phone call from this manager and he said that he would give me back my deposit.

Thanks. They did call me and wanted to give the money back to me. But I am disturbed by the action of forging the document. That is way more serious than 1000 dollars.

No I got the money two days after I post the compliance officer's decision but I just updated this thread today because they sent me the official letter of resolution.

You were offered your deposit back long ago (before October) as far as I can tell, but refused it for whatever reason or made it so that they were unable to give you your deposit back and chose to escalate it to the VSA. You were trying to get them on forging the document, when the terms and conditions in that document state that deposits are non-refundable as Rich has pointed out. So everything that you have been saying about how they manipulated and forged the contract is false as the term was in there all along, and I think you need to take accountability and own up to that. You should edit every post you made claiming they forged the contract as they clearly did not, and you just did not read over it carefully first.

I understand that this is down to an issue of pride now, and that you are using legal technicalities to prove that the dealership is in the wrong and you did everything properly. I agree there is probably some level of shadiness at the dealership, but you were already offered back what you were looking for initially yet you were trying to take this 'all the way'.


No I did not have to put down a deposit to negotiate the price. I just negotiated the price via phone, gave them my credit card information for deposit, and picked up the car the next day.

That sounds too easy to be true, are you sure you're telling the full story here? No dealership would give you the bottom line price on a simple phonecall. What's to stop you from taking that price and shopping it around elsewhere?

To me, what it sounds like is this:
-you went to Regency, saw the vehicle you liked, sat down to negotiate a price and placed a deposit on it
-you took that price, called up some other dealerships to see if they could beat it. You tell them "Hey, I'm ready to buy. Regency has a deposit on my vehicle, but if you give me a better price I'll buy from you instead." They did, and you want to get your deposit back from Regency so you can buy the vehicle cheaper somewhere else.

If you changed your mind at Regency because their price wasn't good enough, you should have done more/better research first instead of using Regency's price you negotiated as a base of negotiation with other dealers, that is pretty low. The document was titled 'purchase agreement', seems pretty clear to me? I'm not sure about all the details of your transaction and why you changed your mind, but frankly I don't care.

Something to think about: At the dealership where you eventually bought your car, how would you have felt after placing a credit card deposit over the phone, then you go in the next day and the salesman tells you that your car was just purchased an hour ago by somebody else who was willing to pay more money than you. Your deposit from the night before meant nothing because you did not sign anything, and it was not legally binding. I'm pretty sure you would be equally upset about that, crying for poor business practice, not honouring deposit/agreement, complaining to VSA all the same, etc etc.

This situation is resolved now, and I don't have anything more to add. At the end, I think both parties need to take some responsibilty and accountability for their actions. People love to hate on dealerships and many times rightfully so, but there are always 2 sides to the story.

[BlackZRoadster]

Exactly what I wanted to say ^^

But I wouldn't have said it as good as you.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[legalaction]

You were offered your deposit back long ago (before October) as far as I can tell, but refused it for whatever reason or made it so that they were unable to give you your deposit back and chose to escalate it to the VSA. You were trying to get them on forging the document, when the terms and conditions in that document state that deposits are non-refundable as Rich has pointed out. So everything that you have been saying about how they manipulated and forged the contract is false as the term was in there all along, and I think you need to take accountability and own up to that. You should edit every post you made claiming they forged the contract as they clearly did not, and you just did not read over it carefully first.


I understand that this is down to an issue of pride now, and that you are using legal technicalities to prove that the dealership is in the wrong and you did everything properly. I agree there is probably some level of shadiness at the dealership, but you were already offered back what you were looking for initially yet you were trying to take this 'all the way'.

No. They offered the refund after I filed the complaint with VSA and VSA forwarded the complaint to them. If before that, I might let them go. I accepted the refund but refused giving my credit card info. A compliance officer from VSA is involved no matter what resolution is reached. This thread started after I filed my complaint and VSA confirmed their reception of my complaint. I have not taken this to court yet so I am not taking this "all the way".

I will not change my claim of forgery. Like I said before, it is because they are trying to present a illegal document as legal, and trying to induce me believe that it is legal, by altering the contract:

Forgery and Offences Resembling Forgery

366. (1) Every one commits forgery who makes a false document, knowing it to be false, with intent (a) that it should in any way be used or acted on as genuine, to the prejudice of any one whether within Canada or not; or (b) that a person should be induced, by the belief that it is genuine, to do or to refrain from doing anything, whether within Canada or not.

Think about the following example: I forged a bunch of $20 bills and bought stuff from you, you found out later and sued me. Can I say " it is not forged, it got '20 dollars' clearly printed there, and even got a nice picture of the queen"?


That sounds too easy to be true, are you sure you're telling the full story here? No dealership would give you the bottom line price on a simple phonecall. What's to stop you from taking that price and shopping it around elsewhere?

To me, what it sounds like is this:
-you went to Regency, saw the vehicle you liked, sat down to negotiate a price and placed a deposit on it
-you took that price, called up some other dealerships to see if they could beat it. You tell them "Hey, I'm ready to buy. Regency has a deposit on my vehicle, but if you give me a better price I'll buy from you instead." They did, and you want to get your deposit back from Regency so you can buy the vehicle cheaper somewhere else.

If you changed your mind at Regency because their price wasn't good enough, you should have done more/better research first instead of using Regency's price you negotiated as a base of negotiation with other dealers, that is pretty low. The document was titled 'purchase agreement', seems pretty clear to me? I'm not sure about all the details of your transaction and why you changed your mind, but frankly I don't care.

You don't care about my story yet you took you time to make up one. Thank you for the tip. Next time I might try the strategy as you described. It might be very effective. Who knows. I don't see anything wrong with dealerships bidding on getting one customer.

I never hide the reason of changing my mind: to renegotiate the price. I said this in previous posts. Regency refused and threatened me with the forged document. I contacted all three dealerships and did my research before I bought the vehicle. The reason I put down deposit at Regency is that they had one in stock. The other dealership called me two days later and told me they have one just arrived. So I contacted Regency for renegotiation and Regency's response is very interesting. If people are interested, I can tell more about Regency's tricks to hold the customers. But I just want to focus on this altered agreement.

The final transaction worked exactly as I said. Maybe for you it is hard to believe. I remember there was a previous post that said the same thing, he did not even give the credit card number. Just a few phone calls.

Something to think about: At the dealership where you eventually bought your car, how would you have felt after placing a credit card deposit over the phone, then you go in the next day and the salesman tells you that your car was just purchased an hour ago by somebody else who was willing to pay more money than you. Your deposit from the night before meant nothing because you did not sign anything, and it was not legally binding. I'm pretty sure you would be equally upset about that, crying for poor business practice, not honouring deposit/agreement, complaining to VSA all the same, etc etc.


I will be upset but I will not complain to VSA. I might just switch to another dealership. In that case they are not doing anything illegal. Nothing can prevent them from doing that, unless there exists a legal contract of deposit clearly stating they will be punished by doing that. But I really doubt there is any economic reason for them to do that. If you have any data from VSA says they got any complaint in this manner please let me know.

I really think VSA should make these contracts standardized to avoid these things, not just "recommendation" and "education".