REVscene - Vancouver Automotive Forum

Neva · 12-06-2011, 03:25 AM

They've offered me a job as a franchise operator for the summer and I gotta let them know tomorrow (or ask to postpone) if I want the job but I'm pretty sure it's a bullshit pyramid deal.

Anyone have any experience running a franchise before or even painting for them?

Right off the bat they want 24% of my profits plus some weekly administrative fees and I have to cover the costs of everything (labour, mats and admin/marketing costs). They also set goals for us to match and if we do we win trips to places (ie vegas and shit)

They gave my numbers of previous ops to call but why would i call people they've already screened to me to call.

Actually just typing this out I feel a little retarded for not realizing it's all bullshit...anyways share stories if you got em

Thanks

sekin67835 · 12-06-2011, 04:01 AM

sounds like vector marketing. Except you're painting instead of selling knives

YouMirin · 12-06-2011, 09:08 AM

Do it and report back with your findings kind sir.
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Gridlock · 12-06-2011, 10:24 AM

Ha...yeah.

Where to begin. Can you make money? Yes. It's not really a multi-level marketing scheme like you are thinking. I worked for a StudentWorks painting franchise. YMMV

From what i learned from the owner, the franchise fees were front loaded for him, so the more money you make, the more you get to keep. I assume a lot of people got baked from doing it and flaked out in July.

He made a good amount of money. I, in turn, made shit. But ain't that the way.

You need to operate it like a full-fledged business...and you need to do that with your own money. You need to form a marketing team, that goes and knocks on a bunch of doors and basically beg people that don't give a fuck what their house is going to look like to sign you, instead of people that know what they are doing.

You need a vehicle, and you need tools. That vehicle is a write off btw, so don't think Momma's volvo is gonna cut it. It will never look the same after you are done. I used my car when I first got started, and had to replace the entire trunk interior, and there is still a huge gob of red in the carpet. Shit just happens with paint. That bucket you have sitting next to it filled with tools? Will never fall over like its fucking cemented upright.

PS...started my biz out of the back of an RX7, and could carry a folding 20' ladder, case of tools and supplies and a paint sprayer. And that's how it all started. As a fucking joke. When I say now that I deserve any amount of respect I've earned, I mean it.

Anyway.

So then you hire a bunch of a)dumbfucks and b) the occasional guy like me that got canned from his other joke fucking employment and actually enjoys this shit.

You'll have better luck now as a lot more guys are looking for employment now then 2003 when I worked for SW. Although I can tell you, you get a lot of whack people looking for work. For awhile recently, I had this guy that called himself "Lean Gene, the Painting Machine" calling, begging for work. He must of either got a job, or the hint because he took me off his calling list.

Another side story...we had this douche working for us, and he was working for hours, and I went to check on him...coated from head to toe in white paint. Couldn't paint a line to save his fucking soul. I can't remember how it came to be, but my method of describing his painting abilities to the owner was, "he couldn't paint his ass with shit if he had diarrhea"

He was classed as a "dumbfuck"

So, you are constantly pimping yourself to potential clients, delivering shit work, constantly doing touch-ups to make "shit" look like "less shit" and moving on to the next project. Your people don't have a fucking clue what they are doing, and the paint job won't last.

Want me to tell you about the house on 4th that had half the front painted in nothing but primer? How about the house on 12th that has a big white paint spot on the roof painted black to disguise it? Oh, my favorite...the guy that had people on ladders painting his house, while he was in the attic whacking off.

As an owner, you have no interest in worker safety so how more of these guys aren't falling off roofs, I have no idea. I got in a fight one day because I refused to do something. He made a threat about WCB mandating me to do it if it was deemed safe. I said go ahead...I'll quit and you can put the douche covered in white in charge. HOw many times did I see someone testing for lead paint? Zero. Mention lead paint? Zero. Take precautions regarding lead paint? Zero.

On the other hand...its not all that bad. You have built in back office support,, so you can actually concentrate on your business. No payroll, no tax remission, no WCB. Makes life a lot easier.

And painting houses is good money. Uni Painters did our old building. Did a horrible job, took forever-actually had a guy standing on someone's car in the parking lot to paint the ceiling..with no protection. And they billed like 14k, probably made 10-11k less expenses. The manager told me they were the cheapest option available.

Most of the student paint companies rip their employees off with "piece work"...you get quoted a wall, and if it takes you more time, or less you make no different. What they do though, is quote the customer on 15 hours, and quote you for 10, and bank the difference.

Honestly, its good for university students...you need a good area and some significant money to start with. You really can't make more money during the summer unless you have hook-ups.

trancehead · 12-06-2011, 11:19 AM

wow, if Gridlocks post didnt enlighten you, i dont know what will

Fafine · 12-06-2011, 11:46 AM

check pm
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Neva · 12-06-2011, 03:03 PM

@gridlock ty for sharing man. I def took some of the things you said and asked about them when I talked to buddy today. and pretty much don't take on painting someone's house if I plan on having some kind of personal relationship with them in the future.

I met with the district manager again today and voiced my concerns.

I was worried about initial starting costs for equipment, legal issues, wcb issues, workers, etc.
From what he told me equipment is no problem because their suppliers do a buy now pay later deal which can be made up from the first couple jobs. Legally they help us to create contracts for both clients and workers and will back us so long as we don't do anything illegal (which is the answer I was assuming was going to be said). They work with wcb trained people (I'll still look into this myself) and that the worst buddy has seen personally with workers is he went through 20 in 2 weeks

but really that's the reality of the job I suppose.

Income works as ~25% of revenue is personal profit but 60% of that is seen in bi-weekly pay and 40% is held in a "safety account" to cover insurance, acct pmts, admin mats, and at the end when I close up the remainder is then given to me in a cheque. Buddy says he usually receives 10-15k at the end in a cheque. The rest covers their cut, labour, supplies and OH. Book keeping, taxes and payroll are all done by them which is nice so I don't have to.

Marketing seems like it'll be mostly flyer spamming/social media and free ad sites (cl/uv). Although they do help to create marketing plans with us it doesn't seem like there'll be any room in budget for anything substantial, if at all.

It seems pretty solid from what I've been told and as long as my estimates aren't retarded and I stick to my budgets and get work flow I should come out ahead. But again my source for this info right now is obviously from someone looking to hire me so is, of course, wicked biased.

I'll keep digging and share what I find.

kroy546 · 12-06-2011, 04:14 PM

i worked for university first class painter before as a painter

yet the franchise manager is a close friend of mine, so i know how much she earns, etc

the cost of everything will be recovered after several jobs, pretty good profit if you hire the right people and you know you shit; however you gotta spend alot of time knocking people's door asking for business

i wouldnt worry about the royalty that you have to return since you are using their brand and that's what gives you the business,

of course, you wouldnt be making as much but without the training, brand and everything they offer, you wouldnt even be out there being a manger making $$

Neva · 12-06-2011, 07:39 PM

Ya I guess there's that thought in the back of my head saying "you'd might make more just doing your own 'company'" but the truth is I wouldn't go and do it on my own anyway.

Without a doubt I'm sure the hardest part is going to be finding clients. I just don't want to end up wasting a summer with hours spent, no cash and possible debt. Or, even worse, screwed out of it and end up paying huge "fees" to the franchisor.

4444 · 12-06-2011, 09:50 PM

did it (different franchise, same model) - total BS, their support is weak at the best.

you're WAY better off getting a job in a restaurant for the summer - yes it can be a good learning experience, but then again, it could be an expensive lesson to learn, given your opportunity cost.

for someone like me who will always stand by their work, i was disgusted by the shit they make you use, paint wise - colour your world, glidden, all those BS paint companies they force on you - absolute junk, for my own houses I only use Behr, the difference in thickness first and foremost is night and day, above and beyond that, 1 coat of Behr covers better than 2 coats of hte piss water they want you to use.

STAY AWAY!!!!! that's my main take away - yes, some ppl will make money, some will make good money at that and do it each and every year - but these kind of people are probably the kind that don't mind doing subpar work and walking away from it - for me, if i'm going to take someone's hard earned money you're damn skippy i'm going to make sure they get value for money

heed my advice, please, don't ruin your first uni summer - you should be enjoying these years, not stressing over deadbeat employee's fuck ups, or bitching clients, or sub par materials - go work for someone else, do a good job, earn good coin, bank it, leave work each day stress free... there's time for starting your own franchise later in life (like 3 years later).... but in uni, just enjoy life

Gridlock · 12-07-2011, 09:20 AM

I don't think its a ruining of the summer as 4444 said...myself, I think it would be way more entertaining than working in a restaurant-but it depends on what you are looking for. If you want to get up in the morning, do your thing, go to some restaurant and hang out with hot waitresses and hope for a chance to shag one-then painting is not for you.

If you want to run your own show, and show up to places because YOU have to, not because someone else tells you to, then this is a way better way to go.

I can tell you that starting your own business is a lot harder than starting up with these guys, and that may be worth a 25% cut. I worked for studentworks in between 1st and 2nd year at BCIT, then went and got a job, worked my way up and was actually somewhat influential at the company. I got to the point where I hated going to work. It literally sucked the life out of me.

And I decided one day to quit, and go and do my own thing. That thing was painting.

I happened to do all this a year before the economy derailed. Now, Vancouver wasn't all that affected, but it was like playing musical chairs, and the dude starting out with no name and minimal resources was left without a chair.

I personally hated the straight "painting" aspect. I wasn't good enough to go super high end, I wasn't willing to apprentice for a few years to learn it(I was NOT going to go from being in charge of a $4 million annual spend at one company to being a grunt at a painting company) so i quickly pivoted into going full service renovations. That meant every job I took on involved more tool purchases. Now, I'm vastly more entertained when we talk about what walls to remove rather than what color to paint them.

I guess where I'm going is I can definitely appreciate the leg up offered by the franchise model. As 4444 said...the work quality is ass. I was getting paid piece work, meaning the faster I slapped it up, the more I made. I still couldn't do it that way. I had to make sure it looked good.

I use to have it made up to me by getting first pick on tasks. Very quickly, I did no prep, and if the job involved spraying, I was the go-to guy.

I think the customers just have to know, right? You collect a few quotes, and one from unexperienced psych majors comes in way less, you have to know there's a catch.

Neva · 12-08-2011, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4444

did it (different franchise, same model) - total BS, their support is weak at the best.

you're WAY better off getting a job in a restaurant for the summer - yes it can be a good learning experience, but then again, it could be an expensive lesson to learn, given your opportunity cost.

for someone like me who will always stand by their work, i was disgusted by the shit they make you use, paint wise - colour your world, glidden, all those BS paint companies they force on you - absolute junk, for my own houses I only use Behr, the difference in thickness first and foremost is night and day, above and beyond that, 1 coat of Behr covers better than 2 coats of hte piss water they want you to use.

STAY AWAY!!!!! that's my main take away - yes, some ppl will make money, some will make good money at that and do it each and every year - but these kind of people are probably the kind that don't mind doing subpar work and walking away from it - for me, if i'm going to take someone's hard earned money you're damn skippy i'm going to make sure they get value for money

heed my advice, please, don't ruin your first uni summer - you should be enjoying these years, not stressing over deadbeat employee's fuck ups, or bitching clients, or sub par materials - go work for someone else, do a good job, earn good coin, bank it, leave work each day stress free... there's time for starting your own franchise later in life (like 3 years later).... but in uni, just enjoy life

This really made me think about what I wanted. You made some wicked points about enjoying summer but really last year when I took the summer off I just ended up taking more courses so between the two making coin seems decent.

Shit product is definitely a downside to it all but again they should know what they're buying and I get covered by the university painters name when people decide to bitch about quality. Terrible way to look at it but I'd like to be able to have some coin and pay for school for once.

I still have the night to think the offer over but I'm leaning towards taking it at this point. Thanks for the input guys.

Neva · 12-09-2011, 09:20 AM

Well I met with the district manager and signed up. I felt like if I turned it down I'd be letting myself down by giving into the thought of failure. My goals at this point are just to walk away from the experience with a profit in both time well-spent and in money.

If anyone's interested I can share my experiences with this process and franchise as time goes on. Might be helpful if anyone has considered this since there's little to no info out there.

Neva · 11-07-2012, 11:53 PM

Forgot that I had this thread and A TONNE of crap has fallen from this tree. Before any of you guys signs anything with this company ask me about the truth to your questions. For the love of god, ask me first.

Just had an anonymous question about a prospect into the company:

Quote:

I got accepted to work as a franchisee manager for (UFCP) University First Class Painters. Now I know that you did this job last year & mentioned in yr post that u would like to share yr experiences.
Can u please tell me how did it work out for u?
was it good or bad for u?
Would you recommend me to do it or stay away from it?
I would appreciate your help...
Thanks...
Bye

The entire structure of the company is a giant scam targeted towards broke students blinded by the 'potential' to make a lot of money.

Think of it this way: You're not going to learn anything in their training that basic first year business courses or common sense won't teach you and you do ALL the work.

You do ALL the work. They take a cut = to what you would make BUUUUT if there's any extra expenses or you go over budget it comes out of your cut not theirs.

You will make more money this summer if you go and paint houses for an hourly wage by yourself or with a friend independently on your own. The name means nothing since no ones heard of them. Seriously.

Camosun and UVIC have also stated that they will try their best to ban this company, and other student painting companies, from their campuses because they do not want to expose any more students to these scams.

Just for startup costs alone your looking at around 4000$. Don't listen to them when they say it's cheaper. All the Island managers had to sink this much in just to start.

They only way you can make money with this company is if you start with a huge sum of money to hire canvassers. AT LEAST 10,000$ of your own dollars into marketing at the very start. AT LEAST that much.

Save your hard earned student money and save yourself the stress of getting scammed and go work fast food/big box/tire shop for a summer instead.

Please ask me any more questions you have about this company before you talk to your area manager. I will tell you the honest truth without any sugar coating. Seriously, ask me first.

samkwong · 11-09-2012, 10:51 AM

Hey guys,

New kid on the block here. Wow, it's been a long time since I was 19 and running that business. I'm not going to mention which company, as they are all the same from what I've read.

I'm much older now. I'm a Chartered Accountant and I run my consulting businesses for variety of sizes of businesses in areas of accounting, tax, corporate planning, getting loans etc.

I will break down a couple main issue in case anyone is still interested in this topic or there are students considering this:

Can you make money

Yes you can. But it's very difficult.

Are there stories of success, absolutely. Are there stories of failure, yes.

Here's how you make money:
1. Assigned to a nice area and not a poor area
2. Be lucky that you sign with some really good/nice clients that are willing to help students
3. Hire some really great staff. Sounds easier than it is
4. Have a rain-less summer
5. Monitor expenses down to the penny

Here's how you won't make money
1. Assigned to a tough/poor area
2. Have really bad clients. Ones that stare at you the entire time, and also try to squeeze every penny out of you, and make do you do things that are not within the contract
3. Staff sucks
4. Rains a lot.

All the factors above are very tough to control. I was 19 when I did it. To be honest. I've worked a variety of job and thought I was pretty smart as I work full time and I have decent grades. Thought I was on the top of the world. But as a young-in, I had my flaws. And I didn't/couldn't manage the business properly. The training helps, but at the end of the day, if you don't know how to paint, you can't run a painting business.

Similar to the fact that if I don't know finance, I can't run my consulting firm right now.

The company try to pitch you that you don't have to paint yourself, you just "manage". But how do you manage and train if you can't paint yourself? How do you know where the risk and cost of a painting business is if you don't know how to paint?

Prior starting my consulting firm, I already knew where I will find clients (in fact, already got clients before even starting the business), know what my overhead cost is, know what the liabillity is, and have a plan. But the key is finding clients, and sales. And I won't be able to do that if I am not an expert in finance.

So it's similar to this painting gig, if you are not a painter, it's going to be hard. Not impossible. Just hard.

How to file sales

Everyone knows sales is everything in business. It won't be a bad gig if you can find business and charge them crazy high $. If you are in the market of getting your house painted, would you hire a bunch of students? Real estate property is a valuable asset, are you going to have faith in a bunch of students.

You know what. Some folks do. The "student" factor sells. Because they know it's tough for students.

But the more "realistic" people will say no. Because they need the house painted correctly. Keep in mind the prices the student charge is not cheap. Because in order for the student to make decent money, they have to charge more (due to higher overhead, higher royalty rates etc). Some guy that has a van and a paint brush and equipment can do it much cheaper (and higher quality) with cash deals.

You get sales in these ways:
1. your own network
2. cold call commercial business
3. cold call residential area (door to door)

Most of us don't have #1, so let's not talk about that. #2 and #3 are hard. You really have to go hard. And really have to have thick skin. It's easier for the attractive ladies, as it's hard to turn down girls. And a lot of the girls are assigned to the good areas (yep, girls do have their advantage). The top manager i remember was this really attractive tall blond young lady. I'm sure she's more than just the looks, you got to be smart to run a business. But you got the point.

Competition

Competition is huge. Keep in mind, your only selling point is "you are a student". You are not as good as the pros. You don't charge as low as the low overhead painters that do cash deals. Your quality of painting is nowhere as good as the pros that have been working for years.

In a recession, people don't have money to spend to experiment with a student. Or be generous. They still exist. But it's rare. It's a uphill battle. In business, its' all about "competitive advantage". For my consulting business, I provide CFO services. Many of the people are contractor cfo does not provide the full CFO package. They don't have as much emphasis on internal controls, I.T. controls, international tax planning etc. The CFOs simply wants to churn out financial statements like a robot. That's my difference, that's my competitive edge. And it works.

Whereas a student painter has no edge. They charge more. Their quality is lower. The only sell is "they are students". That emotional factor for people to help students. That's it. It's hard to run a business based on that.

Cost

You will need a vehicle, which I agree, was beat up after. But my car was old, so it's okay. But prepare to trash the vehicle after.

You have to use designated vendor for paint and equipment. And typically these are not the cheapest ones. This eats your margin. I'm sure the franchise get a kickback from them. It's all business, not a scam. So don't take it personally.

Having said that, as a business owner, you have to be innovative on keeping your cost low. I admit I was young back then and doesn't quite know how to do it.

The fact that they keep the expenses for you really affects you. As a CA, what I learn is that you have to have timely reports on where your business is. Knowing that once a month from their head office is not quick enough. Revenue and cost should really be assessed weekly at minimum. If you don't know where you are at, and especially if the vendor allow you to buy on company credit, cost can get out of hand quick.

Overall thoughts - financial wise

It's a tough business to make money. It's not impossible. Just really tough. They say the average sales should be 30,000. But your margin is like 15-25%. If you are looking to make money, probably easier just to get a job in the summer. You work all year around. You market in winter. Get ready in spring. then execute in summer. if you divide the hours spent with the profit margin, it's not that attractive.

People typically make money in the future years (not the first year). As the first year is an extreme learning curve

I broke even after my summer, might lost couple G overall. For a student, was a lot of money.

Overall thoughts - qualitative

There are several things that were important that I took away:
1. Think critically. Don't easily believe in sales pitches for a job, and people in general. Everyone has their own motivation. Find out what that is. That is what the CA program also taught me. Think both sides. What's in it for the painting company. What's in it for me. What are the pros of this job, and what's the cons of this job. Really think hard, ask people for advice before making a big decision. To me, whether or not to take this job is a big deal as a student.

2. Running a business is extremely tough. It was my first stunt. It totally preps me in the future

3. It will give you a great story for other job interviews in the future. Great experience, if you are okay with the risk of losing money (although there's a potential to make money as well of course)

Overall thoughts

This experience really changed my life. It shows that business owners really need to know their competitive edge, and also, the numbers have to make sense. The pay off has to be worth it for the risk. That is why I'm in the business I'm in today. Lots of clients have great ideas, but when I show them the margins and numbers, they are shocked. Or when I ask them how they are going to be different aside from their passion and energy, they really don't have an answer. I've turned their 6 page BDC business plan template into a full 25 page formal business plan, which eventually got them the loan needed.

Random story

So i finished my summer that year. and there was a potential guy that wants to take over my spot. he was asking my true thoughts. and I explained it to him, professionally and objectively. I told him to keep it between me and him. And he goes back and tell the corporate office our conversation. The owner of the corporate office got mad (of course) and gave me a lecture and tell me not to say anything further. I just told him what I said were pure facts. I told him my challenges, my financials etc. Anyways. That kid end up taking the job, and quit mid way because he said he couldn't make any money.

PM me if you have any questions.

All in all, I don't regret it, it was great/expensive lesson. It helped me down the road. The business model do allow franchisee to make money, but it's challenging. If you are a go-getter, and up for the challenge, and can take a financial hit (worse case scenario of course, because you can actually make some money), then go ahead and give it a shot!

4444 · 11-09-2012, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4444

did it (different franchise, same model) - total BS, their support is weak at the best.

you're WAY better off getting a job in a restaurant for the summer - yes it can be a good learning experience, but then again, it could be an expensive lesson to learn, given your opportunity cost.

for someone like me who will always stand by their work, i was disgusted by the shit they make you use, paint wise - colour your world, glidden, all those BS paint companies they force on you - absolute junk, for my own houses I only use Behr, the difference in thickness first and foremost is night and day, above and beyond that, 1 coat of Behr covers better than 2 coats of hte piss water they want you to use.

STAY AWAY!!!!! that's my main take away - yes, some ppl will make money, some will make good money at that and do it each and every year - but these kind of people are probably the kind that don't mind doing subpar work and walking away from it - for me, if i'm going to take someone's hard earned money you're damn skippy i'm going to make sure they get value for money

heed my advice, please, don't ruin your first uni summer - you should be enjoying these years, not stressing over deadbeat employee's fuck ups, or bitching clients, or sub par materials - go work for someone else, do a good job, earn good coin, bank it, leave work each day stress free... there's time for starting your own franchise later in life (like 3 years later).... but in uni, just enjoy life

I FUCKING TOLD YOU SO!!!

i don't get it, you came here, asked, we all said 'no, it's a scam' - but you did it anyways... now after wasting money and a summer of potential earnings you come back and say EXACTLY what everyone else said?!!?!?!!!

back when i did it, i didn't have anyone to ask (internet wasn't so good 12 years ago) - but FUCK

i'm so annoyed b/c this company got another poor soul to make them money while you made none and this was totally preventable.

my only saving grace is that i am smarter than them (of course i am, i don't rip ppl off through scam painting schemes) and sued them... and won - you DON'T fuck with me... they did, and i was lucky to get enough money from the settlement to make my summer break even (min. wage at number of hrs i worked) - most other ppl won't have that luxury

MindBomber · 11-09-2012, 08:56 PM

I don't have experience working with a University First Class Painters, and have no intention of that ever changing.

I do have extensive experience working in construction, including networking, cold calling, meeting with both industry clients and homeowners, managing crews, expenses... the works.

In general, I commend you for the effort in writing the post.

A good portion of the information is not very good, however, so those who read it should take into consideration if they're seriously considering pursuing painting for a summer.

I'm sure this post will come across very harsh, but that's not my intention so don't take offense. University First Class Painters won't teach a person to run a painting (or any other construction oriented business) well, so it's to be expected that some of your information would be way off accurate.

To anyone seriously considering building a student franchise painting business, I'll give you this piece of advice:

DON'T

Painters are thought of very poorly in the industry.

On Sunday morning, an out-of-work, unemployable fool, can stop at Home Depot and spend a $500 on ladders, drop clothes, brushes, rollers, and paint. Then on Sunday afternoon paint a practice room in their house, and on Monday post an ad on Craigslist and start looking for work.

In reality, your painting skills are no greater than that fool.

Those painters are making less than $15/hour, and it's unstable, but they have no other employment options.

Students do, so get a 'normal' job, instead of trying to compete against those painters.

If you really insist on running a small painting business as a student, do it the same way the unemployable fool painters do and not through a franchise.

The franchise scheme isn't worth the overhead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by samkwong

Hey guys,

Spoiler!