[StylinRed]

this sk8r broke a window with his board and a police dog got sent after him

he needed over a 100 staples to close the wound


i won't link the pictures as they're really graphic, which might get this sent to NSFW


but they're in the link

here's a quote of the article though

Man bitten by VPD dog; PIVOT plans to take to watchdog
Lawyer says multiple wounds took 100 staples to close, calls it a case of serious harm
Erin Loxam/Jill Drews Jan 26, 2012 11:12:46 AM

*Warning: This article contains extremely graphic images*

VANCOUVER (NEWS1130) - The case of man brutally bitten by a police dog is raising questions about the training of the animals. PIVOT Legal Society plans to take the fight to the new police watchdog.

According to PIVOT lawyer Doug King, in June 2011, a construction worker missed catching a bus and, out of frustration, broke a window with his skateboard. King says the VPD used a police dog to help in arresting the man and claims the animal was the first contact with police.

The dog bit Christopher Evans, ripping open his leg.

"The dog latched on a few times to his leg. Mr. Evans says the dog started thrashing, which cause a lot of ripping and tearing. The end result was multiple wounds, which took about 100 staples to close," says King.

"[It caused] scarring, trauma and nerve damage," he adds. "In a situation like Mr. Evans, where all he did was break a window, as bad as that is, he's going to have to deal with these injuries for the rest of his life," he explains.

He wonders if the punishment suited the crime. "Mr. Evans did commit a crime and he did need to be arrested. The problem is we're left with this proportionality. Was it necessary to use a dog? Are the injuries that resulted really justified?"

King claims police feel everything is okay with the K-9 unit, but he argues the stats show otherwise, with increasing injury numbers caused by police dogs. He looks forward to the newly-created Independent Investigations Office taking on the case in the coming months.

"We're hoping that when the office really gets established that the definition of serious harm is included to cover events like this because I think this is the kind of injury that really needs to be looked at independently."

*Warning: Extremely graphic images below*

check the news link out but there are graphic pictures at the bottom of the page with ample warning in the link itself
Man bitten by VPD dog; PIVOT plans to take to watchdog - News1130 (http://www.news1130.com/news/local/article/324003--man-bitten-by-vpd-dog-pivot-plans-to-take-to-watchdog)

[BaoTurbo]

Wow this is a little over the top.

[Excelsis]

:suspicious: for breaking a window?

god damn..

[Santofu]

K I wish I haven't seen that before :heckno:

[wstce92]

serves him right.
here's a thought, don't try to act like a big shot and break a window with your skateboard.
they should've filmed it, and make it mandatory that every punk ass kid in this city watch it.

[Nabatron]

thats what u get for being a dumb fuck! that dawg ate the dudes like a bows!

[trip]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH

theres a chunk hanging between two of the wounds

[rageguy]

Wow a chunk of flesh is missing. There is an actual HOLE in his leg.

[Renthal]

lol imagine the damage US military dogs with titanium teeth could do :ahwow:

[unit]

NSFL

[NSX]

Ummm, article doesn't tell the whole story. Why would they send a k9 after him? Did he run? resist arrest? etc...

[1exotic]

lol that's pretty funny.
got was he deserved.

[StylinRed]

lol imagine the damage US military dogs with titanium teeth could do :ahwow:

Ive heard that VPD police dogs have said teeth but never actually seen/heard anything official

[sindragon]

why did i cllick on those pictures..

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/006/482/template.jpg

[jpark]

holy shit..

[mb_]

Sounds like he did more than just break a window.. Probably resisting arrest and running away. Deserved it but a little bit overkill.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[impactX]

:suspicious: for breaking a window?

god damn..

Probably for fleeing the scene on the skateboard as he admitted in other articles.

[q0192837465]

I'm too scared to click the link now. But I agree, there must be more to the story, the police won't send a dog after just any petty vandals.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[Nlkko]

The news feature all statements from the defendant's lawyer. I would take it with a grain of salt. Don't forget the "so-called" victim is somebody who is willing to send a board through a window just because he miss the bus.

[StylinRed]

more in depth article


A man who required nearly 100 staples to close a gaping wound on his leg left by a police dog is now suing the City of Vancouver and two Vancouver police constables.

The incident last June began after Christopher Evans, frustrated that several city buses had passed him while he waited near Clark Drive, broke a bus window with his skateboard.

The 33-year-old hopped on his skateboard and headed home along East Hastings Street, only realized he was being pursued by police when a German shepherd sank its teeth into his right calf.
Headphones in his ears, Evans fell to ground with the dog tearing at his right calf and thigh. The accompanying police officer was about 10 metres down the street and approaching, Evans explained.
“The first contact I had with the police was with the police dog,” he said. “I didn’t know the police were around.”

Backed by Pivot Legal Society, Evans is now suing for what he says was careless and excessive use of a police dog. Civil court documents filed on Dec. 12, 2011 name as defendants the officer at the scene, Const. Richard Ronald Lee, and Const. Howard Rutter, the department’s dog training constable, along with the City of Vancouver.

Evans was initially charged with mischief for breaking the window — which he admits “was a stupid decision” — but Crown counsel dropped the charges after they saw pictures of his leg.

Photos taken by Evans in St. Paul’s hospital immediately after his arrest show a pair of gaping, bloody gashes on his right thigh — one of which runs nearly the width of his upper leg.

“The nurse at the hospital told me it was amazing the dog didn’t rupture my artery and kill me,” Evans said. “They were bringing in all the rookie nurses to come see it.”

He lost his job at a warehouse because he couldn’t put weight on his leg for more than two months after the attack, he added.

VPD spokesman Const. Lindsey Houghton said he could not comment on a case that is before the courts, but noted the department’s dog squad will speak to the media today.

Evans’ lawsuit follows a previous attempt to curb what Pivot Legal Society believes is reckless use of police dogs.

Pivot initially raised this issue with the VPD in the fall of 2010 after a different person sustained serious wounds to his torso when a police officer lost control of his dog during a routine interaction.

The VPD dismissed the complaint in a recent report to the Vancouver police board and said no change in dog-handling policy is required.

“We are asking the Police Complaint Commissioner to order the Vancouver police department take [another] look at their dog squad and ask whether or not this behaviour is reasonable,” said Douglas King, a Pivot lawyer and head of the organization’s policing campaign.

Police dogs and their handlers shouldn’t be first responders during routine incidents, and officers should attempt other arrest tactics before setting a dog loose on a suspect, he said.

The lawsuit comes a week after Pivot obtained statistics from the office of the Police Complaints Commissioner which show that from March 2011 to January 2012, 46 per cent of all serious injuries caused and reported by municipal police in B.C. — including the VPD — came from police dog bites.

eduggan@vancouversun.com
© Copyright (c) The Vancouver Sun


Read more: Man sues City of Vancouver after police dog attack (http://www.vancouversun.com/life/sues+City+Vancouver+after+police+attack/6055683/story.html#ixzz1ke8X2OeN)



the whole article is good but i bolded some parts i found interesting

he was only charged with mischief (not resisting/evading arrest)

and as the article points out police dog bites are a serious issue


The news feature all statements from the defendant's lawyer. I would take it with a grain of salt. Don't forget the "so-called" victim is somebody who is willing to send a board through a window just because he miss the bus.

not for missing the bus but because the buses were not stopping for him

[124Y]

Holy shit those are some big holes!

[MelonBoy]

Hmm story seems to one-sided... missed the bus and broke a window with his skate board?? uhh.. really?

[xilley]

seems a little too much for a window

[Nightwalker]

Seriously bad call by the K-9 unit.

[Redlines_Daily]

I hope he sues the shit out of VPD. Dogs shouldn't be used in situations like this.

[iwantaskyline]

What the hell do we pay these policemen for? He couldn't chase him down and attempt arrest?

[urrh]

I hope he sues the shit out of VPD. Dogs shouldn't be used in situations like this.
agreed.

so do they have to put the dog down now because it tasted human flesh?
heard that from somewhere about strays and regular dogs. wonder if that's the case for police dogs...

[Manic!]

What the hell do we pay these policemen for? He couldn't chase him down and attempt arrest?

Kind of hard to catch a guy on a skateboard.

I hope he sues the shit out of VPD. Dogs shouldn't be used in situations like this.

Skateboards shouldn't be used to break windows.

[hypediss]

I'll wait till I hear both sides of the story before I make any judgement


I find it odd that the crown dropped the case after they saw the picture of his leg. The dog opening the wound has nothing to do with him smashing a window with his skateboard

[Redlines_Daily]

Kind of hard to catch a guy on a skateboard.



Skateboards shouldn't be used to break windows.

People shouldn't throw their cigarette butts on the ground, doesn't mean we should taser them for it. Punishment needs to fit the crime.

[tegz]

Kind of hard to catch a guy on a skateboard.



Skateboards shouldn't be used to break windows.

I hope you realize that we don't live in a society where resorting to violence with potentially fatal consequences is okay for a minor crime.

[StylinRed]

I'll wait till I hear both sides of the story before I make any judgement


I find it odd that the crown dropped the case after they saw the picture of his leg. The dog opening the wound has nothing to do with him smashing a window with his skateboard

its just a mischief charge those usually don't even get laid if you look apologetic to the arresting officer ;)

crown usually prefers keeping those cases out of the system anyway as they just tie things up, if you have a good defense lawyer he could get them dropped just by chatting up his colleague @ crown

[wstce92]

I hope you realize that we don't live in a society where resorting to violence with potentially fatal consequences is okay for a minor crime.

Unfortunately, as a result, no one thinks twice about commiting a "minor crime" because there are no consequences; a laughable consequence at best.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[satek]

he's lucky. Imagine if the dog bit him a little higher up :heckno:

[Nightwalker]

Unfortunately, as a result, no one thinks twice about commiting a "minor crime" because there are no consequences; a laughable consequence at best.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

brb, lowest crime rate in Canada since 1973.

[StylinRed]

Unfortunately, as a result, no one thinks twice about commiting a "minor crime" because there are no consequences; a laughable consequence at best.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

this "leniency" allows people to be people (freedom) instead of feeling like lab mice in a controlled experiment (a necessity really)

it may be unfortunate that mischief occurs as a result but it is also an example of freedom in its rawest? form

[FerrariEnzo]

arent dogs suppose to be on a leash, as well as police dogs??

[SupraTTturbo2jz]

imagine what a tiger would have done :troll:

[zulutango]

"Backed by Pivot Legal Society, Evans is now suing"

That explains a lot.

So, using a weapon, he smashes a store window worth $$$$???, jumps on his skateboard and flees the scene. He says his headphones block out the Police yells and the dog barks. Police use the dog to apprehend him and he struggles while bitten, worsening the injury to his leg? He is carrying a weapon and resisting arrest. "The dog latched on a few times to his leg. Mr. Evans says I would have thought he would have stopped struggling after the first time he was bitten. Wouldn't you?



Gotta remember this release is from PIVOT who want charges dropped and taxpayer money. You might remember a previous client of theirs...the guy who had the "incriminating pictures" of VPD shooting an "unarmed man". He was a self-described "pot activist" who said he witnessed the shooting and VPD erased the pictures from his cell phone. PIVOT screamed Police corruption and 2 of their experts were unable to find the pictures on the camera...for good reason. Independant video footage showed the guy was not there at the time and never took any pictures. PIVOT wanted big bucks then too. Never apologized for the slander and libel to VPD. Their credibility ranks just below that of the president of Iran.

[stewie]

fuck it, i think its fully justified.

1 - he broke a window
2 - he skated away
3 - with a cop chasing him and him not stoping, hows the cop to know hes not stopping for a reason? perhaps he has a weapon on him
4 - upon chasing him and being unable to stop him, he let the dog on him to stop him

now the baby whines cause he needed staples for doing a crime...heres a thought...dont break fucking windows, think before you do stupid things.

[V.A.C.]

dog shoulda bit him for 200 staples. Breaks a window cause he missed a bus wtf?

[quasi]

I remember the last time I broke a window and had the cops sick a dog on me.......oh wait that's right I'm not a complete dumbass. The wounds are bad without a doubt but this whole little problem could have been averted if the guy wasn't a fucking moron. You reap what you sow and sometimes you reap a lot more then you bargained for.

[Alphamale]

What the fuck??

33 year old skater?

http://exposexpress.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/lol-guy.png

[s300ae]

They could have used this dog during the riots.
For 2012 playoffs, they should have his pictures plastered all over the city.
Break a window to loot, lose a leg.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[7seven]

I really don't feel any sympathy for this guy, perhaps because it's PIVOT who's being his sounding board. PIVOT reminds me of those crazy tin foil hat folks mixed in with a dash of ambulance chasing lawyers, it seems anytime anything comes out of their mouths, it is so ridiculously one sided. Seems they never do any investigations into facts before spouting off to the media the majority of the time.

[Gridlock]

"Backed by Pivot Legal Society, Evans is now suing"

That explains a lot.

So, using a weapon, he smashes a store window worth $$$$???, jumps on his skateboard and flees the scene. He says his headphones block out the Police yells and the dog barks. Police use the dog to apprehend him and he struggles while bitten, worsening the injury to his leg? He is carrying a weapon and resisting arrest. "The dog latched on a few times to his leg. Mr. Evans says I would have thought he would have stopped struggling after the first time he was bitten. Wouldn't you?



Gotta remember this release is from PIVOT who want charges dropped and taxpayer money. You might remember a previous client of theirs...the guy who had the "incriminating pictures" of VPD shooting an "unarmed man". He was a self-described "pot activist" who said he witnessed the shooting and VPD erased the pictures from his cell phone. PIVOT screamed Police corruption and 2 of their experts were unable to find the pictures on the camera...for good reason. Independant video footage showed the guy was not there at the time and never took any pictures. PIVOT wanted big bucks then too. Never apologized for the slander and libel to VPD. Their credibility ranks just below that of the president of Iran.

I don't doubt that they have an agenda, and by the very nature that very few times are they going to have regular joes just caught up in a bad scene. Their "clients" are going to be guys like this that were doing something wrong and it spiraled out from that. Therefore, their credibility is never going to be 100%.

However, its not like the RCMP and VPD have a 100% success rate when it comes to situations like these. A human officer in a human force making fast decisions can easily make the wrong one. It just so happens with guns, tazers and LRADs at your disposal, when you make a mistake, people hurt for it.

I for one will take a few hits to the credibility to these organizations to make sure the hits to the credibility to the police organizations are known, and dealt with. That isn't a "fuck teh policez" statement, that's a statement understanding that a successful police force survives on oversight. You're watching "us" and we're watching you, and round and round we go.

For sure, when they get shot down, I think they should totally have to grab their ankles for the media. Get up there in a press release and announce "we backed the wrong horse" but that NEVER happens with ANYTHING.

[StylinRed]

"Backed by Pivot Legal Society, Evans is now suing"

That explains a lot.

So, using a weapon, he smashes a store window worth $$$$???, jumps on his skateboard and flees the scene. He says his headphones block out the Police yells and the dog barks. Police use the dog to apprehend him and he struggles while bitten, worsening the injury to his leg? He is carrying a weapon and resisting arrest. "The dog latched on a few times to his leg. Mr. Evans says I would have thought he would have stopped struggling after the first time he was bitten. Wouldn't you?

yeah your leg is being torn apart... staying completely still is really comprehensible...



Gotta remember this release is from PIVOT who want charges dropped and taxpayer money.

no... his charges were already dropped by crown before PIVOT got involved... PIVOT is campaigning against the liberal use of K9 units and this guy is simply the most current example for their cause of restricting K9 use... so they're "supporting" him by taking his case to the police watchdog ;)

the sk8r is taking the city and the pd to court to seek damages




I really don't feel any sympathy for this guy, perhaps because it's PIVOT who's being his sounding board. PIVOT reminds me of those crazy tin foil hat folks mixed in with a dash of ambulance chasing lawyers, it seems anytime anything comes out of their mouths, it is so ridiculously one sided. Seems they never do any investigations into facts before spouting off to the media the majority of the time.

PIVOT is a voice for those who've been stepped on in society, the group that are usually shunned and not listened to... Legal Aid has been decimated over the years and PIVOT is doing its part in helping those with no voice regardless where they're from and those without voices are usually the ones that are seen as the "undesirables" of society, would you support PIVOT if they, like the rest, ignored these elements of the community? They investigate as much as they can but you have to remember they're a non-profit volunteer group there's only so much they can do with the resources they have @ hand... want them to do a better job? donate your time or funds


PIVOT is essentially that guy in the crowd of observers that comes out and goes "HEY that's not right!" you know the guy that we here on RS usually support for having the "balls" to stand up and do whats right for the little guy, the bullied kid, the senior being pushed around; even if the guy may not have the full story that's besides the point because @ that very instance he sees something uncalled for and tries to put a stop to it

the only reason people have a problem with PIVOT is because of Who they're usually standing up for and protecting, but that shouldn't be of concern and if it is its more than likely an issue you should reflect on regarding yourself; the concentration should simply be upon the act that PIVOT is trying to put a stop to (in this case excessive/liberal K9 use which leads to serious injury)

[z-33]

v

[z-33]

f

[NNT]

It is not the dog, its how the cop control the dog. The damage wont be that bad if the cop can recall the dog as soon as the skater down.

[7seven]

the only reason people have a problem with PIVOT is because of Who they're usually standing up for and protecting, but that shouldn't be of concern and if it is its more than likely an issue you should reflect on regarding yourself

No that is not the only reason people have a problem with PIVOT, the reason why I have a major issue with PIVOT is because they lack accountability and are extremely irresponsible in how they conduct their operations.

Like in the case mentioned above about the "witness" claiming he had footage on his cell phone running to PIVOT, which turned out to be false, all he had to do was run to PIVOT and the first thing PIVOT does is call a press conference stating this as fact and pushing the police corruption angle. A couple years ago, a colleague of mine decided to test PIVOT, he went to PIVOT with a made up story about police brutality with injuries that he sustained while training, PIVOT instead of looking into his story and claims first, wanted to call a press conference right away. How is any of this behavior responsible? It's not.

While PIVOT might have started out with good intentions and have some legitimate cases, unfortunately to some and especially to me, now PIVOT has basically become the boy who cried wolf one too many times with hidden agendas.

[Death2Theft]

SKATEBOARDING IS A CRIME MOTHERFUCKER!!!!

[Nlkko]

agreed.

so do they have to put the dog down now because it tasted human flesh?
heard that from somewhere about strays and regular dogs. wonder if that's the case for police dogs...

No. Police dog units are authorized to attack on command, same as officers are authorized to fire their weapons. The dog could have bitten many other criminals before.

PIVOT is a joke. It's one of those special interest groups who go around and waste society's resources.

[G-spec]

this guy sounds like a douche no doubt who was in the wrong but the worst he deserved is jail time and a fine for damages he caused nothing more than this, but instead he got the VPD/RCMP treatment of the good old "fck it I'm too lazy to do what my training manual says, I'll just let my tazer/k9 do the work"
I do think though that here in Vancouver unlike some other major cities we lucky that at least we dont have to really worry about the word "gun" added right after tazer and k9..... so far.....

but you know what's ridicilous... the fact that zulutango refers to a skateboard as a common weapon and makes it seem like any normal person should just lay or sit in peace while being mauled by a dog...
and you know what's inexcusable and something cops rarely get shit for.... the fact that many cops seem to have a different outlook (according to their own natural tendencies) on how to react when conflict arises even though they all had the same training...

All I'm saying is, and wishful thinking I know... how about we get some equality in the police forces and we wouldn't have a lot of the problems with the cops that we do now, why not get them on the same page so they all react and act according to their training and not their first instinct...
And what I'm talking about for those that don't have first hand experience is for example this guy gets his leg torn open for walking away from a cop, but I did the same fcking thing the other week when I walked away from a cop who was hassling me for nothing (and fck I did it fully knowingly when I looked him in the face and told him I was leaving, I literally told him I wasn't gonna cooperate since I wasn't breaking any laws) and all I got was a pep talk on the sidewalk from a mature 50+ year old officer with no doubt 20-30 years on the force...
now that's fcking proper police work, notice no dogs were released, no tazers were used....
and he even TOLD ME in the end of our convo, he says "You know you're lucky it's me and not some 20+ year old rookie who would have beaten and handcuffed you"

[zulutango]

"yeah your leg is being torn apart... staying completely still is really comprehensible...

As someone who has been bitten many time by Police Dogs (with padding in place and as part of training scenarios) the first thing you learn is to immediately stop fighting and trying to pull away from the dog. When you do stop resisting the dog stops pulling. I have seen this happen hundreds of times in training and many times in real life. Stop fighting and the dog stops biting. Even my own dogs at home do the same thing when I play tug of war with them.

[bengy]

Typical lazy pig behaviour. How many pigs are there on patrol on East Hastings? If they were too lazy to run after the dude, they could have radio ahead and a patrol car would have probably got him.

[G-spec]

"yeah your leg is being torn apart... staying completely still is really comprehensible...

As someone who has been bitten many time by Police Dogs (with padding in place and as part of training scenarios) the first thing you learn is to immediately stop fighting and trying to pull away from the dog. When you do stop resisting the dog stops pulling. Even my own dogs at home do the same thing when I play tug of war with them.



I honestly have no idea if you're being serious at all, you can't possibly believe that every day normal working people would have the sense and presence of mind that the first thing they would do is immediately stop resisting when they have a DOG RUN UP ON THEM OUT OF NOWHERE AND START MAULING YOUR LEG

are you fcking kidding me?? especially in this case, since he had no idea it was a police dog or anything, dog just came out of nowhere and attacked him and he's supposed to act according to some police training manual only policemen know about ?

[taylor192]

but you know what's ridicilous... the fact that zulutango refers to a skateboard as a common weapon
I don't think it is that ridiculous. Someone who is willing to use it to break a window, may be willing to use it to do other harm.

[taylor192]

I honestly have no idea if you're being serious at all, you can't possibly believe that every day normal working people would have the sense and presence of mind that the first thing they would do is immediately stop resisting when they have a DOG RUN UP ON THEM OUT OF NOWHERE AND START MAULING YOUR LEG

are you fcking kidding me?? especially in this case, since he had no idea it was a police dog or anything, dog just came out of nowhere and attacked him and he's supposed to act according to some police training manual only policemen know about ?
I'll give that that only cause he didn't know it was a police dog, otherwise I fully expect people when confronted by police to not resist... yet everyday there's footage of some idiots resisting police arrest and getting manhandled cause of it - then crying foul and lawyering up.

[Gumby]

Whenever one of these threads come up, it's pretty obvious who has had bad experiences with cops, and who hasn't. :)

[G-spec]

I'll give that that only cause he didn't know it was a police dog, otherwise I fully expect people when confronted by police to not resist... yet everyday there's footage of some idiots resisting police arrest and getting manhandled cause of it - then crying foul and lawyering up.


ya for sure the thing is you ALWAYS gotta co-operate with cops even when they're 100% in the wrong, that shit don't matter because that's life man, it's just the way it is... I slip up once in a while myself but for the most part it's all yes sir no sir for me..

I learned the hard way when I personally got my ass kicked by 7 cops with batons years ago, (bruised ribs, broken jaw, various bruises, stitches) and all this for having a fight break out right in front of me they thought I was a part of it even though I had my hands in my pockets the whole time....

I didn't cry or bitch to any lawyers or news outlets because I was a kid then and thought it was normal since I come from a country where cops shoot their guns in your direction just to fck with you....
now that I'm all westernized and shit, I fully realize it possibly could have meant a fat payday....

and this guy, looks like he may be getting his payday most likely... good for him, but doesn't do shit for the next guy that's gonna get mauled by a k9

[Phil@rise]

Whats next police dogs chewin on speeders. Fuckin sad. In this circumstance I'm sure the K9 cop just happened to be there and felt it his job to apprehend the dude but as a trained K9 cop he should have been aware of the potential outcome of his actions and called in another officer or stashed his dog in the K9 car then proceeded to apprehend the guy sans dog.

[GLOW]

3 pages in and i'm the only one that had this thought come to mind when seeing this post?

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/27529_126317264067648_1496_n.jpg

[Pooface55]

Didn't click the pics after reading the responses. If this article prevents people from vandalizing windows I'm all for it.

[Alphamale]

tbh, there really isn't anything wrong with this guy getting his shit torn to pieces.

With experience being on the end of vandalism of all sorts to my parents property (multiple/repeat broken fences, graffiti) and also having to cover the costs of repairing the property or face a fine from the city, I'd be fucking happy to see some of these cock sucking low-life scum fucks get mauled by a police dog to "teach them a lesson".

Most of us got beat and were taught (eaiser) lessons when we were young. Life only gets harder and the lessons only get tougher.

Fuck this guy and his scum bag attitude for breaking ppl's shit when he "missed a bus".

[Berzerker]

Some friends and I were playing ball tag at night in the Hotel that got built where the old Coach House is in North Van (can't remember the name of the hotel now). It was still being built there were no windows or anything it was just a shell with some walls. We had about 20 tennis balls and there 6 of us from the neighborhood playing. The cops showed up (it was a construction zone and fenced off so we were tresspassing) so all but one of us just walked out. The cops were playing badass and though we were vandalizing and didn't even give us a chance to explain they handcuffed us all and made us sit on the sidewalk. One of my friends was scared of getting caught so he hid inside. They sent the police dog in after him and the dog literally dragged him out by the leg. His leg looked way worse than that picture. After we explained what we were doing and actually showed them the tennis balls in our pockets they said "You shouldn't be in here" The ambulance had to come get my friend, no charges were ever laid, and he's scarred for life. No retribution was brought on the officers or the dog. How is that fair and just? Sounds like the same sort of scenario only WE weren't doing anything that warranted that kind of response and I don't think the skateboarder was either.

Berz out.

[Manic!]

as a trained K9 cop he should have been aware of the potential outcome of his actions and called in another officer or stashed his dog in the K9 car then proceeded to apprehend the guy sans dog.

The skater should have been aware of the potential outcome of his actions.

He caused 100's of dollars of damaged and inconvenienced a bunch of people. What if there was someone on the other side of the window?

[Gumby]

Some friends and I were playing ball tag at night in the Hotel that got built where the old Coach House is in North Van (can't remember the name of the hotel now). It was still being built there were no windows or anything it was just a shell with some walls. We had about 20 tennis balls and there 6 of us from the neighborhood playing. The cops showed up (it was a construction zone and fenced off so we were tresspassing) so all but one of us just walked out. The cops were playing badass and though we were vandalizing and didn't even give us a chance to explain they handcuffed us all and made us sit on the sidewalk. One of my friends was scared of getting caught so he hid inside. They sent the police dog in after him and the dog literally dragged him out by the leg. His leg looked way worse than that picture. After we explained what we were doing and actually showed them the tennis balls in our pockets they said "You shouldn't be in here" The ambulance had to come get my friend, no charges were ever laid, and he's scarred for life. No retribution was brought on the officers or the dog. How is that fair and just? Sounds like the same sort of scenario only WE weren't doing anything that warranted that kind of response and I don't think the skateboarder was either.

Berz out.
Sorry if I sound like a dick, but your friend was scared of getting caught so he hid inside? Not a very wise choice, was it?

You didn't mention it, but I doubt the cops sent the dog in without warning your friend first.

[SiRV]

Guy deserved it. I've had a window broken in my house for absolutely no reason once during the middle of winter, just a bunch of retards tossing rocks at homes. They ran away before I could even see anyone that did it. Cost several hundred dollars to fix, Heating during the storm sucked, and scared the shit out of my grandmother who lives with us. I hope this window-breaker is the same fucker who did it to my house.

[JD¹³]

So, using a weapon, he smashes a store window worth $$$$???, jumps on his skateboard and flees the scene. He says his headphones block out the Police yells and the dog barks. Police use the dog to apprehend him and he struggles while bitten, worsening the injury to his leg? He is carrying a weapon and resisting arrest. "The dog latched on a few times to his leg. Mr. Evans says I would have thought he would have stopped struggling after the first time he was bitten. Wouldn't you?
I expected a retarded response from you and got it. The guy had no idea he was being pursued and was blindsided by an attack dog. He had no knowledge that the dog was Police, for all he knew it was a rabid animal, but you expect someone to stop struggling and just lay there and take the mauling? What a moronic comment. You can't resist arrest if you don't even know you're being arrested, especially by a damn dog.

Any officer that claims a skateboard is a weapon while a guy is riding it, and then being knocked off it by his dog because he was too slow to catch the guy himself is a coward. Releasing an attack dog on someone who hasn't committed a serious or violent crime is negligent on the part of the officer, period. The dog is lucky it wasn't hurt or killed by someone who knows how to defend themselves against one, not hard to break a dog's neck.

[G-spec]

I expected a retarded response from you and got it. The guy had no idea he was being pursued and was blindsided by an attack dog. He had no knowledge that the dog was Police, for all he knew it was a rabid animal, but you expect someone to stop struggling and just lay there and take the mauling? What a moronic comment. You can't resist arrest if you don't even know you're being arrested, especially by a damn dog.

Any officer that claims a skateboard is a weapon while a guy is riding it, and then being knocked off it by his dog because he was too slow to catch the guy himself is a coward. Releasing an attack dog on someone who hasn't committed a serious or violent crime is negligent on the part of the officer, period. The dog is lucky it wasn't hurt or killed by someone who knows how to defend themselves against one, not hard to break a dog's neck.



co-sign all of the above except the last part, lol, maybe a normal dog but them police dogs are brutally strong because of the way they're trained to bite and just rip and tug at whatever they're biting. Their neck muscles are typically more developed because of this...

I had a German Sheppard back in my country when I was a kid, loved that damn dog... and one day a corrupt cop came by the house and dog kept barking at him, so he came back later that night and shot it in the head killing it.... :okay:

[dangonay]

seems a little too much for a window
Breaking a window seems a little too much for missing a bus.

Funny how people are ragging on the police for being excessive and using a K-9.

Yet awhile ago a teen threw a rock at a car and was shot with a crossbow. And people were saying he got what he deserved for messing with the guys car.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[Death2Theft]

Dont know too many dogs that will keep on mauling when it's got a couple of fingers or a fist in it's butt.:ilied:
I expected a retarded response from you and got it. The guy had no idea he was being pursued and was blindsided by an attack dog. He had no knowledge that the dog was Police, for all he knew it was a rabid animal, but you expect someone to stop struggling and just lay there and take the mauling? What a moronic comment. You can't resist arrest if you don't even know you're being arrested, especially by a damn dog.

Any officer that claims a skateboard is a weapon while a guy is riding it, and then being knocked off it by his dog because he was too slow to catch the guy himself is a coward. Releasing an attack dog on someone who hasn't committed a serious or violent crime is negligent on the part of the officer, period. The dog is lucky it wasn't hurt or killed by someone who knows how to defend themselves against one, not hard to break a dog's neck.

[threezero]

Our police system really has an issue with accountability. Do some reason and you will see how moronic it is for police to investigates themselves when complains are raise. There is no authoritative non-bias third party to keep the police in check.

what we need is something like ICAC

[Mr.C]

No offense, but I have been passed on by three buses in a row, and never had a thought to break a window. He's got anger issues, and unfortunately got mauled. He could have manned up and not fled the scene too. Or maybe not have had blaring music on his headphones. That way, when the officer shouted for him to stop, he would have. I can't believe people are crying that the police used unreasonable force, lol.

[G-spec]

I don't think anybody is really defending the guys actions, the problem is the varying use of unnecessary force, and what I mean by that is why does it vary from officer to officer so differently to the point where at times it's literally a life and death situation... the problem is almost always in the individual police officer and not the police unit as a whole...
I doubt their training manual says to release the hounds on some junkie looking skateboarder because he's a block too far from you

like I said earlier in my other post, why is it that I can tell one officer to basically go fuck himself right to his face, then walk away and all I get is a pep talk, while this idiot gets mauled by a dog for what actually is if you really think about it, a lesser incident.. yea smashing the glass happened, but he didn't literally knowingly and willingly defy and not co-operate with an officers demands like I did...

[Phil@rise]

The guy was almost killed by the police for breaking a window thats the story here. Crime did not deserve this punishment hundreds of dollars in damage for a nearly lost life and a lifetime of possible complications and incurred costs to our medicare system.......One could go on and on as to why the K9 and police department for that matter should be held more accountable for their actions.
I doubt "s8r boi" would have smashed the window if someone was on the other side of it. Thats just a stupid argument.

[TMT]

ouch

[Excelsis]

the skateboarder would eventually run into a red light.. good thinking cop

[taylor192]

The guy was almost killed by the police for breaking a window thats the story here.
PIVOT is already being a drama queen, don't join them. He didn't almost lose his life.

I doubt "s8r boi" would have smashed the window if someone was on the other side of it. Thats just a stupid argument.
You cannot speak to what a reasonable person would do, cause a reasonable person would not smash a window after missing a bus.

Its stupid to defend criminals. You break the laws of society designed to keep society safe, you shouldn't get the right to hide behind the laws of society for your safety.

As someone else said, if this was a car window everyone here would be up in arms that some punk damaged a car and got what he deserved.

I think it was overkill to send the dog, yet it was overkill to smash a window and run. 2 wrongs don't make a right, yet the charges against him were dropped as the judge figured he's suffered enough.

[ShadowBun]

agree with above
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[Gumby]

You cannot speak to what a reasonable person would do, cause a reasonable person would not smash a window after missing a bus.

Its stupid to defend criminals. You break the laws of society designed to keep society safe, you shouldn't get the right to hide behind the laws of society for your safety.

As someone else said, if this was a car window everyone here would be up in arms that some punk damaged a car and got what he deserved.

I think it was overkill to send the dog, yet it was overkill to smash a window and run. 2 wrongs don't make a right, yet the charges against him were dropped as the judge figured he's suffered enough.
Best post in this thread. :thumbsup:

[SpuGen]

I guessing the guy probably didn't have bus fare, and wasn't let on the bus.

Bus drivers usually let you on if you're close enough, and will usually stop for you to let you on. If he was close enough to take a full swing at the window, he would've been close enough to be let on the bus.

I will agree that the extent of the injuries were a little severe, and that not everybody would have the same instinct/training to just stop and let a dog maul you. But he probably tried to fight off the dog with his board, which would make sense that the dog kept going at his leg. The dogs are trained to stop a perp until he stops resisting arrest. Fighting off the dog isn't gonna make him stop gnawing at your leg.

The guy's an idiot for breaking the window, and the cops probably could've handled the situation a bit better, but I don't think they would send the K9 unit after you if you weren't trying to run. I'm calling BS on him getting blindsided by the dog. He just broke a window, and there are cops behind him. What would 9/10 people do? You run.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8

[StylinRed]

You cannot speak to what a reasonable person would do, cause a reasonable person would not smash a window after missing a bus.

I think it was overkill to send the dog, yet it was overkill to smash a window and run. 2 wrongs don't make a right, yet the charges against him were dropped as the judge figured he's suffered enough.


1) it hasn't been proven that he intended to break the window, we don't have the details unfortunately.

Another bus could have been passing him by @ the stop and in his anger he took a swing at the bus with his board and it just so happened to smash a window; contact may not have even been made with the window but the shock of the hit broke it. We just don't have the information.

does a reasonable person punch the wall in anger @ times? i dunno, is it outside the realm of reason? i don't think so.

2) it never made it in front of the judge, crown council let it go so as not to tie up the judges time (happens a lot)

I guessing the guy probably didn't have bus fare, and wasn't let on the bus.

Bus drivers usually let you on if you're close enough, and will usually stop for you to let you on. If he was close enough to take a full swing at the window, he would've been close enough to be let on the bus.


yeah ive seen many bus drivers (years ago) let people on anyway if they don't have the fare

but the issue in this case is that the buses weren't even stopping to let people on/off which got this guy worked up.

If you look @ the sun article he's covered in Ink maybe he felt he was being discriminated against?

The guy's an idiot for breaking the window, and the cops probably could've handled the situation a bit better, but I don't think they would send the K9 unit after you if you weren't trying to run. I'm calling BS on him getting blindsided by the dog. He just broke a window, and there are cops behind him. What would 9/10 people do? You run.


this brings up an interesting point we don't know if police were on the scene when he left but given that he wasn't charged with resisting/evading arrest its safe to say that the police/crown didn't feel like he was doing that at all (since he was only charged with mischief)
so we must assume that the police weren't on the scene @ the time of the incident and since the officer being blocks away @ the time of the dog attack isn't being disputed (yet)
we must assume that he was set upon by the dog unbeknownst to the victim

so my question is if its accurate that the police weren't there on the scene, @ the time of the vandalism, so as to witness it; then were they simply going after a suspect based on witness accounts? and if so how could they set the dog to go after a "suspect matching the description"?

which gives more credence to the cause of PIVOT of trying to restrict the seemingly liberal use of K9s

[JD¹³]

He didn't almost lose his life.
Doesn't mean it wasn't a possibility given the wounds inflicted. Do you know how many arteries are in your legs? Some of them are quite shallow and if torn open a man could bleed out in minutes if not attended to, especially if the femoral is hit. Officers have almost zero first aid or even first responders skills. The victim in this case has a bit of meat on his legs so it was far less likely, but had the same attack happened to a smaller person it could have been very serious. The bottom line is releasing a dog on someone has to have just cause and this DEFINITELY wasn't it.

http://vascularultrasound.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/leg-arteries3.jpg

[Graeme S]

My position in this case is a mix of sympathy and apathy.

The article in the Vancouver Sun (Man sues City of Vancouver, officers over police dog bite (http://www.vancouversun.com/life/sues+City+Vancouver+officers+over+police+bite/6060279/story.html)) says that he was near Hastings and Clark--that's a tough part to catch a bus on a busy night; everyone's gotten on downtown and nobody's getting off until Commercial or Nanaimo. It's entirely possible the busses were passing him by and/or were stopped due to traffic problems anyways but not letting people on.

Let's imagine, however, that you're on that bus. That some guy with a skateboard and covered in tattoos starts banging on the door (with his fists) and yelling at the driver. If you were the driver (or a passenger), would you feel safe in letting that person on to an already crowded bus? And then that guy picks up his skateboard and smashes it against a window, cracking or breaking it? Windows on busses are double-glazed (I think that's the correct term), but the sound of a shattering window near my head if I were sitting would freak me the fuck out.


There was one time I was at commercial and a group of guys were standing near where the back doors would open. The driver asked a woman who wanted to get off to get off at the front so that those people couldn't get on without paying. When she got off, the driver immediately began to drive away, and the group of guys got angry, kicked the door (as the bus was moving) and cracked the door glass enough that there were small pieces of glass on the floor of the bus.

Everyone had to get off, even though it was just the door glass that was cracked a bit. The bus was driven by that driver back to the depot and everyone had to wait in the cold for the next bus.


I can imagine that whatever happened that night was probably longer. Attending officers probably showed up at the scene and were given reports by the people who were on the bus of "a crazed man smashing the window in for no apparent reason, and then skating off".

When the police hear reports of a crazed man who is willing to smash public property, should they simply go about their business and do nothing? If someone else were hurt by this guy (let's assume he wasn't just calmly skating home and was going to take his anger out on someone else), what would the public's reaction to that have been? "VPD pays little regard to bus vandal, assault victim alleges"

The strength and level of their reaction given the expected knowledge of the situation is not surprising.

He claims to not know that police were on the lookout or following him and that he had no idea he was being chased by a police dog. Various news articles also say he was skating in alleyways and had headphones in his ears. Now I don't skate, but I do take alleyways sometimes, and the idea of travelling down them freaks me out 'cause I always worry about cars or crazies jumping out at me and not being able to hear them is scary. I think having your headphones on kind of mitigates things as far as that goes.

"I couldn't hear him yelling at me to stop!"
"Why not?"
"I was listening to KoRn!"
"So what should he have done?"
"Yell louder!"


All that having been said, I do kind of feel for the guy. I'm kind of surprised that they're not trying to put any weight on the employer for dropping him for being injured or the BC Labour Board for helping him out. The number of stitches he has and the injuries he's faced are ridiculous, but so was what he did. I'm not at all saying that this is completely justified or balanced or anything else, but I think it's one of those situations where it's caveat malefactor (criminal beware).

People say Tazers are dangerous, yet the time when they are most dangerous is when the suspects continue to resist after they have deployed (when the officers must compress the chest for confinement after tazing). I'm not at all saying this is analagous, but I'll tell you this: I'd rather get tazed than shot.


This whole thing sucks for him, I agree. But if it were me on that bus, I think I'd've been pissed if the cops DIDN'T deploy the dogs.

[SkinnyPupp]

The way I see it, if you don't commit crimes, you will have roughly a zero percent chance of being bit, shot, tazed, handcuffed, and anything else.

[donjalapeno]

A) He broke a window which could have caused harm to someone...

B) I heard on the radio this morning that he was running away on his skateboard

C) Dogs are for catching bad guys.

D) These wounds Shows people not to fuck with police and face your problems like a man.

E) Someone that Losing their temper because of missing a bus should get anger management treatment. Yes, if I missed the bus I would get frustrated but breaking a window is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over the top.

in this case he deserves anger management treatment and community service hours, he shouldn't have to pay any fines.

[StylinRed]

letting the dogs out on a citizen matching the description of a vandal is uncalled for no matter how you twist it... what if it ended up Not being the guy police were looking for?

the point shouldn't be whether you feel this guy deserved to have his leg handicapped for life for breaking a window; it should be whether the police were in the right of releasing the dogs on someone fitting a description (which they aren't even in their training)

[Fappin]

I hope he sues the shit out of VPD. Dogs shouldn't be used in situations like this.

Tax money well spent?

[Bouncing Bettys]

If missing the bus means potentially losing your job for being late, I could see why he would get upset. We are in some tough economical times and jobs are scarce. Not condoning breaking a window but I do understand his frustration in missing the bus when put in the context of being really fucked.

Not all bus drivers in Vancouver are nice or patient either. I have caught the bus outside the Horseshoe Bay Ferry Terminal and more than once seen a few people running down the street trying to catch the bus while the driver ignores them. Even the passengers on the bus call this out to the driver's attention and he doesn't stop.

What this guy should have done is pull a Marty McFly: hop on his board and grab onto the back of the bus while playing Huey Lewis and The News - Power of Love

[Great68]

letting the dogs out on a citizen matching the description of a vandal is uncalled for no matter how you twist it... what if it ended up Not being the guy police were looking for?



That's a good point. They are damn lucky this guy was the actual perp.

[achiam]

Idiot got what he deserved. I honestly wish this happened to ALL idiots. There is always the argument that Canada as a nation is a nation of rights and freedoms, but this unfortunately has been misconstrued systematically to allow LOTS of crimes with slap-on-the-wrist punishments. There is a cost to everything -- us allowing idiots like this and a multitude of other crimes requires judicial enforcement and correctional services. Who pays for this?
Ask yourselves that when you look at your pay stub and notice half your pay is fucking gone. I would much rather have a murderer executed than pay $100,000/year for the rest of his life in prison.

[StylinRed]

Idiot got what he deserved. I honestly wish this happened to ALL idiots. There is always the argument that Canada as a nation is a nation of rights and freedoms, but this unfortunately has been misconstrued systematically to allow LOTS of crimes with slap-on-the-wrist punishments. There is a cost to everything -- us allowing idiots like this and a multitude of other crimes requires judicial enforcement and correctional services. Who pays for this?
Ask yourselves that when you look at your pay stub and notice half your pay is fucking gone. I would much rather have a murderer executed than pay $100,000/year for the rest of his life in prison.

the healthcare costs of rehabilitating and caring for this guys leg for the rest of his life is astronomical in comparison to the broken window...

and it actually costs more to execute someone than it is to imprison them here's an article which tries to demonstrate this (for the USA)

To execute or not: A question of cost? - US news - Crime & courts - msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29552692/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/execute-or-not-question-cost/#.TyN16vnYESE)

[zulutango]

"letting the dogs out on a citizen matching the description of a vandal is uncalled for no matter how you twist it... what if it ended up Not being the guy police were looking for?"

Speaking of "twisting" things...even Pivot never made that statement. Where are you getting that info from? Dog use their noses to trail suspects from crimes all the time. It's called "Tracking". Handlers don't just release the PSD and let it roam the back streets alone like some urban wolf pack. They stick very close by and are almost always on the other end of the leash. They may let the dog run towards a target when they make visual contact but have to be very close to do so. An adult male carrying a skateboard that just smashed a window can use it to injure or kill the dog so the handler would need to be close.

.

[Zoidberg]

Who else hopes that this guy was one of those faggot skateboarders from the riot? :fullofwin:

[taylor192]

Doesn't mean it wasn't a possibility given the wounds inflicted.
The police wouldn't use it as a tactic to apprehend people if the risk was as high as you're making it out to be. Nice try though.

[taylor192]

1) it hasn't been proven that he intended to break the window, we don't have the details unfortunately.

does a reasonable person punch the wall in anger @ times? i dunno, is it outside the realm of reason? i don't think so.

This has to be the weakess and lamest post yet. You don't swing a skateboard without the intention of damaging something.

As for punching a wall, I've done it in anger, yet it is definitely outside the realm of reason. I don't feel it was reasonable when I've been angry enough to destroy something, in fact is the opposite, completely unreasonable I couldn't control myself better.

It was a missed bus. If it was witnessing a loved one run over by the bus, I'd have some sympath for acting out unreasonably. Yet its not.

Save your weak ass reply for another topic.

[cressydrift]

Interesting debate. I am going to start by going by the skateboarders story.

If he was skating away with his head phones on and has no idea the cops were "chasing" him, then I would assume that he's not moving at a high rate of speed. Any person male/female in ok shape would be able to run fast enough to catch him and catch him of guard, easily being able to throw/push him to the ground. You would now have his attention, being able to tell him what is happening. If he threatens or runs then warn him about the dog. He runs, or try's to attack, release the dog and this is never in the news.

An adult male carrying a skateboard that just smashed a window can use it to injure or kill the dog so the handler would need to be close.

I know that if it was me getting attacked by the dog I would just lay down and tell them to stop and listen for instructions. The handler being close by would call off the attack and its another case of "book'm dano". So in this case I think the skateboarder did not comply. Thus letting the handler wait un-till he/she thought that the the officer was not at risk by going in for the arrest (inflicting more injuries on the skateboarder). OR he/she lost control of the dog.

Just my thoughts. Who else thinks that this wouldn't have nearly the amount of attention on it if it wasn't for the Robert Dziekański incident?

[kuruuze]

There seems to be more and more complaints about police these past few years. I got an idea, any lawsuits and payouts with the police found at fault should be taken directly out of their collective pay/pension. This would stop their whole cowboy attitude and help police keep each other in check. I don't know how much the VPD paid out for the Robert Dziekański incident, I'm guessing it was a pretty penny. If they took that compensation/money to pay lawyers out from police pay instead of the tax pot I'm sure the "I'm sorry" would have come sooner to save time cost instead of extending it was excuses such as "he (Dziekanski) was brandishing a (imaginary) stapler! I was scared for my life!"

[StylinRed]

This has to be the weakess and lamest post yet. You don't swing a skateboard without the intention of damaging something.
Save your weak ass reply for another topic.

actually no, it could very simply be a release of frustration, you can't claim intent at all you can only accuse it... you would need a trial to prove intent (i'm educating you here based on fact)



Speaking of "twisting" things...even Pivot never made that statement. Where are you getting that info from? Dog use their noses to trail suspects from crimes all the time. It's called "Tracking". Handlers don't just release the PSD and let it roam the back streets alone like some urban wolf pack.

.
it was more in follow up to the previous post i made (look at the one i made prior to it bottom paragraph (or look at the bottom of this message as i show you how i came to that conclusion again)
i'm not saying the k9 unit was just roaming the alleyways and attacked a random skateboarder im saying the police didn't know for certain he was their suspect and they let the dog have at him

but you're trying to tell me the dog was tracking this skateboarder....? where are you getting that from? :crazy2:

They stick very close by and are almost always on the other end of the leash. They may let the dog run towards a target when they make visual contact but have to be very close to do so.

based on the allegation the officer was blocks away, the police haven't denied this, they've only said "we didnt do anything wrong"

but i'll say this again, based on what we know, the police weren't on the scene when the incident occurred; so we must assume that they were searching for a suspect based on witness accounts

so when they saw this skateboarder he was merely a citizen fitting the description of a vandal and the officer likely called after him

but as we know, the victim claims he couldn't hear anything as he was rocking his music player, the police don't deny this and the fact that he wasn't charged with evading/resisting arrest we have to assume this is true and the officers/crown believed this

yet the police dog was let go to chase down this guy who fits a description of a vandal

fortunately? (i don't think its appropriate to say this as it would suggest the vandal deserved to be attacked) the police dog wasn't set upon the wrong person by his handler

[7seven]

StylinRed, you need to stop stating your assumptions as factual events in this case


it was more in follow up to the previous post i made (look at the one i made prior to it bottom paragraph (or look at the bottom of this message as i show you how i came to that conclusion again)
i'm not saying the k9 unit was just roaming the alleyways and attacked a random skateboarder im saying the police didn't know for certain he was their suspect and they let the dog have at him

And how do you know the officers did not know Mr. Evans was their suspect? Nothing in PIVOTs or Mr. Evans' statement to the media indicated the length of time or distance that passed between Mr. Evan's committing a criminal act (which he has admitted to) and being bit by the service dog, you came to the conclusion yourself that the officers were not on scene to witness the incident.

We do know that Mr. Evans' attempted to catch a bus on Hastings, after failing to board a bus he swung his skateboard striking the bus. Mr. Evans and PIVOT's statement to the press said Mr. Evans' only knew of the police presence when the service dog bit down on his leg while he was skateboarding down Hastings because he had headphones on.

I can easily play devils advocate and present another conclusion based on the statement PIVOT and Mr. Evans released, it goes like this:

Mr. Evans' strikes the bus with his skateboard on Hastings, he then proceeds immediately to hop on his skateboard to skate down Hastings with his headphones on. Down the street, the K9 unit witness' this and yells at the subject to freeze. The subject does not respond and keeps skating away at a quicker pace than the officer can run on foot, officer again yells at subject but receives no response so the service dog is deployed.

That could very well be what happened as well. The bottom line is that we do not know the sequence, timing and distances of the events that transpired based on the statement released by PIVOT and Mr. Evans.



but you're trying to tell me the dog was tracking this skateboarder....? where are you getting that from? :crazy2:

Again, as above, we do not know the sequence of events yet, maybe that is Zulutango's own conclusion or maybe he has some knowledge as he is an officer. It's just as accurate and inaccurate as your statement/conclusion that officers had no line of sight on the service dog and did not witness the incident.


based on the allegation the officer was blocks away, the police haven't denied this, they've only said "we didnt do anything wrong"

but i'll say this again, based on what we know, the police weren't on the scene when the incident occurred; so we must assume that they were searching for a suspect based on witness accounts

so when they saw this skateboarder he was merely a citizen fitting the description of a vandal and the officer likely called after him

Again, please see above, this again is the conclusion you came to yourself. I quote from the Vancouver Sun article:

Earlier this week Evans told The Sun the first sign he was being pursued by police came when he was grabbed from behind by a German shepherd while riding his skateboard down East Hastings Street. He had earlier smashed a city bus window with the skateboard after several pass-ups in the Downtown Eastside.

Evans claims he didn’t see or hear police before the dog attacked.

“The first contact I had with the police was with the police dog,” he said. “I didn’t know the police were around.”



Read more: Vancouver police defend dog-handling policies in face of injury lawsuit (http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Vancouver+police+defend+handling+policies+face+inj ury+lawsuit/6064920/story.html#ixzz1kk2HI2ix)

Nothing in the above states any of sequences of events, the timing or distances that might have passed between criminal event and service dog deployment or if the officers witnessed the events.


but as we know, the victim claims he couldn't hear anything as he was rocking his music player, the police don't deny this and the fact that he wasn't charged with evading/resisting arrest we have to assume this is true and the officers/crown believed this

Again, you are twisting the words, VPD did not deny or confirm any of their side of the events, VPD said they could not comment on the lawsuit. It is pretty standard practice in all organizations/businesses/individuals to not comment on pending legal action. Just because a charge of resisting arrest was not forwarded to Crown does not mean Mr. Evans' did not skate away from officers yelling at him to stop. It could very well be that after, when they realized that Mr. Evans' was not intending to evade or resist due to his headphones playing loud music, VPD decided to only forward the mischief charge to Crown. Again this is my assumption and conclusion that one could just as easily arrive at opposite of yours based on what we know of the events.

One key thing that is being overlooked here is that not only was Mr. Evans' compliant reviewed and dismissed by VPD's own professional standards section (which I admit can raise eyebrows with VPD investigating VPD), it was also reviewed and dismissed by the Office of the Police Complaint Commissioner, an independent civilian body, who the BC Civil Liberties Association themselves praised as a fair and independent way for the public to have their complaints against police looked at.

Mr. Evans' only went to PIVOT after his complaint was already reviewed and dismissed by an independent civilian body who had both Mr. Evans' and the VPDs version of the events, possibly other witnesses as well. Again as I mentioned before PIVOT has a shady track record with a number of their allegations proven false in the past and how they conduct their operations.

With how little information has been released, we all could come up with many plausible sequences of events in this case. However, for me personally, I am satisfied that with the Office of the Police Complaint Commissioner having already done their independent reviews of all the facts and have dismissed Mr. Evans' complaint.

[StylinRed]

StylinRed, you need to stop stating your assumptions as factual events in this case

i never said my assumptions were facts.... i specifically said based on what is known to us... :crazy2: (and what is known to us could indicate what i said) didnt read the rest sorry 7seven ill try for an actual reply l8r on but you seem to be confusing my responses as im saying its with an utmost certainty that that is how things have played out



And how do you know the officers did not know Mr. Evans was their suspect? Nothing in PIVOTs or Mr. Evans' statement to the media indicated the length of time or distance that passed between Mr. Evan's committing a criminal act (which he has admitted to) and being bit by the service dog, you came to the conclusion yourself that the officers were not on scene to witness the incident.

again based on what's known to us the suspect had time to get on his skateboard put his music player on (maybe he already had it on?) and skate away and according to other articles he was riding through an alley "a short time after the incident", so its safe to say he got some distance away from the bus and some time had passed

if the police were @ the scene and witnessed the incident, which as ive agreed we don't know but, they would have charged Evans with evading arrest if he was resisting police and or attacked the dog as some suggested earlier he would have been charged with resisting as well

but he wasn't, he was only charged with mischief


We do know that Mr. Evans' attempted to catch a bus on Hastings, after failing to board a bus he swung his skateboard striking the bus. Mr. Evans and PIVOT's statement to the press said Mr. Evans' only knew of the police presence when the service dog bit down on his leg while he was skateboarding down Hastings because he had headphones on.

That is inaccurate Mr. Evans was waiting for a bus and 4 buses had passed him by which frustrated him to the point of striking a bus

Mr. Evans' strikes the bus with his skateboard on Hastings, he then proceeds immediately to hop on his skateboard to skate down Hastings with his headphones on. Down the street, the K9 unit witness' this and yells at the subject to freeze. The subject does not respond and keeps skating away at a quicker pace than the officer can run on foot, officer again yells at subject but receives no response so the service dog is deployed.

That could very well be what happened as well. The bottom line is that we do not know the sequence, timing and distances of the events that transpired based on the statement released by PIVOT and Mr. Evans.

that is a possibility but like ive said based on what we know and since the police havent denied it we can only assume it is true that that Isnt how it played out



Again, as above, we do not know the sequence of events yet, maybe that is Zulutango's own conclusion or maybe he has some knowledge as he is an officer. It's just as accurate and inaccurate as your statement/conclusion that officers had no line of sight on the service dog and did not witness the incident.

my point exactly obviously it was missed by you ;) maybe it was my fault but since it was in context to zulus reply to me on my post its for him to understand/misunderstand


Nothing in the above states any of sequences of events, the timing or distances that might have passed between criminal event and service dog deployment or if the officers witnessed the events.

I don't see how you can quote the article i posted but "miss" this line

The accompanying police officer was about 10 metres down the street and approaching, Evans explained.
The first contact I had with the police was with the police dog,” he said. “I didn’t know the police were around."

and based on the plethora of articles it indicates as ive noted a few paragraphs up some time had passed


Again, you are twisting the words, VPD did not deny or confirm any of their side of the events, VPD said they could not comment on the lawsuit. It is pretty standard practice in all organizations/businesses/individuals to not comment on pending legal action. Just because a charge of resisting arrest was not forwarded to Crown does not mean Mr. Evans' did not skate away from officers yelling at him to stop. It could very well be that after, when they realized that Mr. Evans' was not intending to evade or resist due to his headphones playing loud music, VPD decided to only forward the mischief charge to Crown. Again this is my assumption and conclusion that one could just as easily arrive at opposite of yours based on what we know of the events.

Again?

its not a twisting of words at all a) the fact that it wasn't denied and b) that he wasn't charged with anything other than mischief it allows us to safely assume Mr. Evans didn't know he was being chased

i even use the words "Assume" so many times


I don't get your reaction 7seven at all, maybe its just cuz you hate PIVOT...



let me make it a little easier for everyone? my assumptions based on the events could very well change as more information is released but based on what ive read that's the most reasonable conclusion i see, it may very well be wrong?
Regardless though the dog shouldn't have been sicked on a vandal even if the officer witnessed it, get in his car, radio it in, chase him, whatever which is the bigger issue here and the reason PIVOT is involved

[zulutango]

"Again, as above, we do not know the sequence of events yet, maybe that is Zulutango's own conclusion or maybe he has some knowledge as he is an officer."


My opinion is based on many years of exposure to Police dogs, training sessions with them and being in situations where they were used to apprehend, track and control criminals. What I'm offering is an informed point of view on the way PSD's are used on the job.

Nobody here was there at the time but it seems the official reviews of the incident (including the P.C.C) say that the dog handler and dog did nothing wrong, therefore they must have followed policy and process, which is what I described.

[Great68]

I don't know how much the VPD paid out for the Robert Dziekański incident, I'm guessing it was a pretty penny. If they took that compensation/money to pay lawyers out from police pay instead of the tax pot I'm sure the "I'm sorry" would have come sooner to save time cost instead of extending it was excuses such as "he (Dziekanski) was brandishing a (imaginary) stapler! I was scared for my life!"

It was the RCMP who was involved in the Dziekansi incident, not the VPD.

[dangonay]

I say the guy got what he deserved.



A bit off-topic.....

I know a several guys from way back who were always getting into shit with the police. However, they never actually committed any crimes - they were usually bystanders to other incidents. Bystanders with bad attitudes.

Let's say you're walking down a street and a brawl is taking place and officers are trying to get control of the situation. A cop looks at you and tells you to stand against the wall and wait. Most people would think "I never did anything, so I'll do what the officer says and in a few minutes they'll get things sorted out". Others will say "Fuck that - I didn't do shit and I'm not standing around and wasting my time" and proceed to disobey the officer, probably after saying something like "I'm just walking by - I'm not involved".

What is the officer going to do in a situation like that? Probably going to think you're doing something wrong since you're not doing what he asked and next thing you know you're on the ground getting cuffed for resisting. An officer doesn't have time to play 20 questions with you in the middle of an altercation, so why would you be stupid enough to start an argument with them when something's going down?

Officers can and do make mistakes, but in my experience most people who have this kind of stuff happen to them brought it on themselves because of their attitude, dislike of police or dislike of authority figures in general. Another group of people that act similarly are protestors. Always trying to push the buttons of the police while getting as close to the line (without crossing it) as they possibly can.


I'd bet this Mr. Evans is just like those guys I knew who, because of their attitudes and actions, tend to escalate situations far beyond where they would normally go. Which is what I think happened here.

I have zero sympathy for Mr. Evans.

[Gridlock]

Pivot is involved because Pivot needs to continually prove that they are doing "something" to justify their existence.

Don't get me wrong, some of these agencies and watch dogs and community groups bring things to light that would otherwise go unknown. I truly believe that the police in general need a well informed public that can oversee their actions. That's not anti-police in anyway, but when you have a force of people that are armed, and have the ability to injure, or detain citizens at large, the whole thing that makes it work is the public watching them at the same time they watch the public.

They also happen to run way left and be staffed by the hippie type people.

One of my favorite things in the news is community groups. They all run the same basic plot, and follow a similar script.

1. Injustice. Group forms to fight it.
2. Empire Strikes Back. Whatever group has caused the injustice defends their actions
3. Public outcry. It goes from a small group to public support for the cause
4. Victory. Injustice solved.
5. My favorite-someone gets on the news after the resolution and continues the fight with words like, "they should have done it sooner", or "this wouldn't have been a problem in the first place if they had just done x to begin with"

They don't know how to disband. They also don't know how to apologize when they are wrong.

I really disagree with the people that take the stance of "he had it coming". That may be, but its not the role of the police to hand out punishment of any kind. A few whallops to the head while putting someone in the back seat of the squad car is not cool. You see it in videos all the time, those few extra whacks with the baton just cause.

I also disagree with the people that are making this guy out to be a saint. You want to be that guy that does something stupid like breaking a window with your skateboard, then you open yourself up to having the hounds released upon your scrawny window breaking ass. It's not the job of the police to determine that you have ear phones in. It's their job to catch you. That's why we pay them the big bucks! Yeah, it would be great to have the officer run up to him and tap him on the shoulder.

Ultimately, this whole thing runs a real grey area for me. Is it a little overkill to send the dog after him? We don't know, we weren't there. Is it proper for Pivot to be defending this guy because of excessive force? I don't know. An officer can't sit there and take 20 minutes to think out every scenario with every punk he deals with. He arrives on scene, sees a dude skateboarding away and a broken window. Go.

I think it is important for someone to be asking those questions though. My problem is going to be when the answer to those questions is "let's give him money"

[SpuGen]

I like how this thread is a polar opposite to the Carls JR shooting.
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[Fi2e]

why didnt the cops tase and beat him after he was down? he broke a window!! wtf!!

[7seven]

again based on what's known to us the suspect had time to get on his skateboard put his music player on (maybe he already had it on?) and skate away and according to other articles he was riding through an alley "a short time after the incident", so its safe to say he got some distance away from the bus and some time had passed

if the police were @ the scene and witnessed the incident, which as ive agreed we don't know but, they would have charged Evans with evading arrest if he was resisting police and or attacked the dog as some suggested earlier he would have been charged with resisting as well

but he wasn't, he was only charged with mischief

Yes he was only charged with mischief but with Mr. Evans' complaint already reviewed and dismissed by the Office of the Police Complaints Commissioner (an independent and civilian police oversight body), common sense says that the VPD officer and service dog acted correctly, meaning that Mr. Evans' must have been given warnings before the service dog was released. Likely Mr. Evans' didn't hear the warnings or instructions from the officer to stop due to the headphones, proper protocol and procedures were followed. The Office of the Police Complaints Commissioner had all the facts from both sides and ruled in favor of the VPD.


that is a possibility but like ive said based on what we know and since the police havent denied it we can only assume it is true that that Isnt how it played out

That's a dangerous thing to do, I understand how people would make a judgement since they only have one side of the story here, however VPD again has not denied or confirmed anything because they cannot comment. Not sure if you have ever had any experience dealing with attorneys and civil proceedings, but any attorney would usually instruct the individual/organization/corporation not to comment at all on any pending civil proceedings. Mr. Evans' statement could have claimed that the VPD deployed a laser shooting dinosaur on him and the VPD's comment would have still been "we cannot comment", thus in your eyes, not denying the use of a laser shooting dinosaur. Again with Mr. Evans' complaint already been dismissed by the OPCC, that tells me Mr. Evans' and PIVOTs statement of his side of the story is missing a lot of key points.


I don't see how you can quote the article i posted but "miss" this line

Correct, I did miss that line, but this actually supports mine and Zulutango's conclusion of the events. Mr. Evans' says the officer was about 10 meters behind the service dog, 10 meters is right within line of sight and pretty close. For reference purposes, 10 meters is approx 10 yards on a football field, just a bit longer than the length of a SUV. So this shows that the service dog was not blocks away or away from its handler roaming looking for Mr. Evans.



Again?
its not a twisting of words at all a) the fact that it wasn't denied and b) that he wasn't charged with anything other than mischief it allows us to safely assume Mr. Evans didn't know he was being chased

a) as above, wasn't denied or confirmed because all VPD will say is that they comment on any pending civil proceedings as instructed by their attorneys. VPD only found out about the civil lawsuit on Thursday, their attorneys will likely file a statement of defence with the courts and at that time then they might be able to comment, when the formally file their defence.

b) my conclusion on this is that VPD did Mr. Evans' a "favor" by only forwarding mischief charges based on the unfortunate result of the injuries he sustained. OPCC already cleared the officer and service dog here in how they handled themselves, so that tells us proper procedures were followed that would include warning the subject the service dog would be deployed and that the subject was not responding to the officer's instructions


I don't get your reaction 7seven at all, maybe its just cuz you hate PIVOT...


My reaction in siding with the VPD in this situation is because Mr. Evans' complaint and claims have already been investigated by a civilian independent body, the Office of the Police Compliants Commissioner which is supported by the BC Civil Liberties Association, and found to have no merit, so they dismissed Mr. Evans' complaint already and found the VPD in this situation, acted properly.

[Lowered_Klass]

Anyone else more angry with some of the replies here, then the actual story itself?

Jesus.

[bengy]

I don't think anybody is really defending the guys actions, the problem is the varying use of unnecessary force, and what I mean by that is why does it vary from officer to officer so differently to the point where at times it's literally a life and death situation... the problem is almost always in the individual police officer and not the police unit as a whole...
I doubt their training manual says to release the hounds on some junkie looking skateboarder because he's a block too far from you

like I said earlier in my other post, why is it that I can tell one officer to basically go fuck himself right to his face, then walk away and all I get is a pep talk, while this idiot gets mauled by a dog for what actually is if you really think about it, a lesser incident.. yea smashing the glass happened, but he didn't literally knowingly and willingly defy and not co-operate with an officers demands like I did...


Telling a cop to go fuck himself is not a crime. Smashing a bus window is.

[Graeme S]

like I said earlier in my other post, why is it that I can tell one officer to basically go fuck himself right to his face, then walk away and all I get is a pep talk, while this idiot gets mauled by a dog for what actually is if you really think about it, a lesser incident.. yea smashing the glass happened, but he didn't literally knowingly and willingly defy and not co-operate with an officers demands like I did...


Let's imagine, however, that you're on that bus. That some guy with a skateboard and covered in tattoos starts banging on the door (with his fists) and yelling at the driver. If you were the driver (or a passenger), would you feel safe in letting that person on to an already crowded bus? And then that guy picks up his skateboard and smashes it against a window, cracking or breaking it? Windows on busses are double-glazed (I think that's the correct term), but the sound of a shattering window near my head if I were sitting would freak me the fuck out.


There was one time I was at commercial and a group of guys were standing near where the back doors would open. The driver asked a woman who wanted to get off to get off at the front so that those people couldn't get on without paying. When she got off, the driver immediately began to drive away, and the group of guys got angry, kicked the door (as the bus was moving) and cracked the door glass enough that there were small pieces of glass on the floor of the bus.

Everyone had to get off, even though it was just the door glass that was cracked a bit. The bus was driven by that driver back to the depot and everyone had to wait in the cold for the next bus.


I can imagine that whatever happened that night was probably longer. Attending officers probably showed up at the scene and were given reports by the people who were on the bus of "a crazed man smashing the window in for no apparent reason, and then skating off".


I realize my post came after yours, but I hope my little blurb helps to explain some of the differences in the situations.

[JD¹³]

The police wouldn't use it as a tactic to apprehend people if the risk was as high as you're making it out to be. Nice try though.
No? Think Police would release dogs on juvenile's? You know they wouldn't (or shouldn't) because the risk of serious injury is high. Police officers are assigned to serve and protect the public and as such are held to a higher moral, ethical, and intelligence standard. The officer that released the dog failed to uphold those standards and demonstrated poor judgement. There must be just cause to use your weapon whether it's a taser, firearm, or dog. They are use of (potentially) deadly force. In some departments officers have to write reports anytime they even draw one let alone use it. Minor vandalism does not justify the use of deadly force by it's definition no matter how stupid the suspect may be.

In this particular case the dog ripped multiple solid chunks out of the suspects leg, which to me show that the dog was on him for at least 20-30 seconds before an officer was able to intervene. That is beyond a takedown and is an attack. The difference with a dog versus a taser or firearm is it has a mind of it's own, and no matter how well it's trained it does not have the same judgement as a human being. FWIW in some military units dogs ARE trained to kill. The VPD KNOW this situation was excessive use of force which is why they dropped the charges against the suspect as a result of the injuries he sustained. I'm not going to get into PIVOT or the lawsuit, but the fact is even the Police know this was bad judgement by the officer to use the dog and have responded as such. Accept it.

[spyker]

No? Think Police would release dogs on juvenile's? You know they wouldn't (or shouldn't) because the risk of serious injury is high. Police officers are assigned to serve and protect the public and as such are held to a higher moral, ethical, and intelligence standard.

I guess the K9 cop had poor judgement when my friend and I got arrested when we were kids,I still have the scares on my ass to prove it,the cop released the dog on us without any warning,I got bit on the ass,my friend got bit on his head,when we were caught,and cuffed,the fucking cop was mocking us and making jokes & laughing right in front of us to his fellow cop pals.

The fucked up thing was,when we got to the youth detention center,we both did not recieve any medical attention till the next day.

I was 16 & my friend was 15 at the time.

[StylinRed]

Yes he was only charged with mischief but with Mr. Evans' complaint already reviewed and dismissed by the Office of the Police Complaints Commissioner ...

yes but that Office isn't as sufficient as we would like hence why we have the new police watch dog (IIO) in place and experience has shown me that they are not perfectly impartial

That's a dangerous thing to do, I understand how people would make a judgement since they only have one side of the story here, however VPD again has not denied or confirmed anything because they cannot comment. Not sure if you have ever had any experience dealing with attorneys and civil proceedings, but any attorney would usually instruct the individual/organization/corporation not to comment at all on any pending civil proceedings. Mr. Evans' statement could have claimed that the VPD deployed a laser shooting dinosaur on him and the VPD's comment would have still been "we cannot comment", thus in your eyes, not denying the use of a laser shooting dinosaur. Again with Mr. Evans' complaint already been dismissed by the OPCC, that tells me Mr. Evans' and PIVOTs statement of his side of the story is missing a lot of key points.

as said we can only go by what we know and what we know indicates, to me, what ive previously noted; what i noted isn't based solely on the fact that police didn't deny the allegations it was in conjunction with the charges placed (or not placed)



Correct, I did miss that line, but this actually supports mine and Zulutango's conclusion of the events. Mr. Evans' says the officer was about 10 meters behind the service dog, 10 meters is right within line of sight and pretty close. For reference purposes, 10 meters is approx 10 yards on a football field, just a bit longer than the length of a SUV. So this shows that the service dog was not blocks away or away from its handler roaming looking for Mr. Evans.

perhaps my comment was misunderstood? or wasn't read? As i never stated that the police were out of sight, my point was that the officer let his dog loose on a "citizen fitting the description of a vandal" my comment is based (if it was read) that we are assuming the officers didn't witness the event in question and was simply searching for the vandal based on witness accounts

which as i said originally is an assumption based on what is known, the fact that a period of time had passed since the incident occurred and the charges placed; the officer may very well have witnessed the event in question but again based on what is known


a) as above, wasn't denied or confirmed because all VPD will say is that they comment on any pending civil proceedings as instructed by their attorneys. VPD only found out about the civil lawsuit on Thursday, their attorneys will likely file a statement of defence with the courts and at that time then they might be able to comment, when the formally file their defence. again we are basing our comments on what is known to us, we all know, and we (at least I have) stated that many many times "based on what is known"

you cant sit here and ridicule and say that "when the truth comes out then we'll see!!" as what we're doing now is commenting on what is known to us

b) my conclusion on this is that VPD did Mr. Evans' a "favor" by only forwarding mischief charges based on the unfortunate result of the injuries he sustained. OPCC already cleared the officer and service dog here in how they handled themselves, so that tells us proper procedures were followed that would include warning the subject the service dog would be deployed and that the subject was not responding to the officer's instructions

you can't say you've properly warned someone if that person didn't hear it or was aware of it; many trials get dismissed due to improper warning by police or judges will give leeway on the reaction of the defendants based on whether or not they heard the warnings

as for giving credit to the police by assuming they did More than what is known to us i don't feel you can properly make that argument as you could then say "well at least the police didnt kill him"


My reaction in siding with the VPD in this situation is because Mr. Evans' complaint and claims have already been investigated by a civilian independent body, the Office of the Police Compliants Commissioner which is supported by the BC Civil Liberties Association, and found to have no merit, so they dismissed Mr. Evans' complaint already and found the VPD in this situation, acted properly.

your reaction is based on a dislike of PIVOT and giving the officers the benefit of doubt, believing that they did more in support for the victim than what is known, the OPCC side of supporting your argument didn't arise until afterwards (when it was revealed) but again if OPCC was sufficient we wouldnt need the new watchdog

so you're clearly biased, not that there's anything wrong with it as how this particular incident played out may turn out to align exactly with your viewpoint

my pov is its too dangerous to unleash K9 units so liberally especially for a case like this and I am biased too as I regularly see the brutal nature of the police when it comes to dealing with the "undesirables" "underdogs" what have you

but imo whatever the circumstances of this case K9 use needs to be curbed

tracking, sniffing for drugs, sure apprehending vandal/minor crime suspects? no fucking way

[nns]

Oh my god, talk about beating a dead horse. Just give it up.

[Shead]

The way I see it, if you don't commit crimes, you will have roughly a zero percent chance of being bit, shot, tazed, handcuffed, and anything else.

funny you say that, because im reminded of that story about a foreigner at the yvr that did not speak english and was unwilling to cooperate then he got tazed by the cops, turns out he had a heart piece(he died).

[Graeme S]

funny you say that, because im reminded of that story about a foreigner at the yvr that did not speak english and was unwilling to cooperate then he got tazed by the cops, turns out he had a heart piece(he died).
Roughly zero. There's always exceptions.

[zulutango]

perhaps my comment was misunderstood? or wasn't read? As i never stated that the police were out of sight, my point was that the officer let his dog loose on a "citizen fitting the description of a vandal" my comment is based (if it was read) that we are assuming the officers didn't witness the event in question and was simply searching for the vandal based on witness accounts

so we must assume that the police weren't on the scene @ the time of the incident and since the officer being blocks away @ the time of the dog attack isn't being disputed (yet)


I see that you are contradicting yourself...kinda like playing "whack-a-mole" :)

[StylinRed]

perhaps my comment was misunderstood? or wasn't read? As i never stated that the police were out of sight, my point was that the officer let his dog loose on a "citizen fitting the description of a vandal" my comment is based (if it was read) that we are assuming the officers didn't witness the event in question and was simply searching for the vandal based on witness accounts

so we must assume that the police weren't on the scene @ the time of the incident and since the officer being blocks away @ the time of the dog attack isn't being disputed (yet)


I see that you are contradicting yourself...kinda like playing "whack-a-mole" :)

i dont see how that's a contradiction, it seems more like you're not understanding what im saying, perhaps i was unclear? but ive repeated it so many times..... :suspicious:


so we must assume that the police weren't on the scene @ the time of the incident << im speaking of the breaking of the bus window

and since the officer being blocks away @ the time of the dog attack isn't being disputed (yet) and? perhaps i was incorrect in using "blocks away" but based on the articles out there (province, sun, globe & mail) we get reports of the officer being 10m-40ft-"few blocks down the street" but by saying "blocks away" i had no intention of implying the officer was "out of sight" and I had never said such...


instead of taking your pov and accuse you of twisting words; i'll simply reiterate that either you misunderstood or i was unclear ;)

[dangonay]

The one thing that pisses me off the most about PIVOT is they make sure their side of the story gets heard in the media. They know damn well the VPD will refuse to comment on any on-going legal actions. Which also means that all of the evidence the VPD has in this case will remain a secret until they get to court.

This is why we don't know what witnesses reported to the police or the interactions the police had with Mr. Evans. We don't even know the actual timeline of events or how far Mr. Evans was from the bus when he was taken down.

All we have is one side of the story. Mr. Evans side (as reported by PIVOT).

One has to wonder why PIVOT wouldn't simply wait until the trial (and the outcome) before going public. Well, no, we don't have to wonder. It's quite clear PIVOT wants to put the VPD, their dogs and handlers in a poor light. And it's really easy to do that when you can talk all you want knowing the other side will keep quiet until the actual trial.

Which is why I can't stand PIVOT. Using a case to further their own agenda, instead of doing what they were founded to - defend injustices.

[zulutango]

[
and since the officer being blocks away @ the time of the dog attack isn't being disputed (yet) and? perhaps i was incorrect in using "blocks away" but based on the articles out there (province, sun, globe & mail) we get reports of the officer being 10m-40ft-"few blocks down the street" but by saying "blocks away" i had no intention of implying the officer was "out of sight" and I had never said such...

So you are using the media reports to support your argument? The ones you just quoted to say..."few blocks down the street"....yet you say you never said the Police were not out of sight? Are you saying they now have Superman vision that can see "blocks down the street"? The report that found the Police were not at fault put them at 10m away....the length of the average tracking leash. You can't have it both ways. "whack" :fullofwin:

[drunkrussian]

hooooly shit!!!

overall this guy got caught acting like a douchebag out of frustration and instead of a fine is gonna get a nice payday...win!
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[Soundy]

The 33-year-old hopped on his skateboard and headed home along East Hastings Street, only realized he was being pursued by police when a German shepherd sank its teeth into his right calf.
OR SO HE CLAIMS.
Headphones in his ears, Evans fell to ground with the dog tearing at his right calf and thigh.
I don't know the details of police dog training, but it seems to me NOT instantly shredding a suspect would be a big part of it. How much you wanna bet this guy was beating the dog with his skateboard?

[Gridlock]

neither of you guys were there, so continually arguing about who's assumptions are closer to reality is really pointless, no?

[StylinRed]

So you are using the media reports to support your argument?
this is all we have to go on unless you have some sort of psychic powers? ... you're really nit picking here and driving away from the point of the k9 shredding a guys leg and using whatever information we the public have to come to our conclusions..


The ones you just quoted to say..."few blocks down the street"....yet you say you never said the Police were not out of sight? Are you saying they now have Superman vision that can see "blocks down the street"? << maybe you're blind but i can see a far distance in a straight line ;) you want to argue what "out of sight" can be? really?

The report that found the Police were not at fault put them at 10m away....the length of the average tracking leash. You can't have it both ways. "whack" :fullofwin:
was the OPCC report released? and again this point here of speaking of the length of the tracking leash will open up a whole slew of other arguments and speculation but it doesnt change the concern that the officer needlessly let his dog loose on a suspect a suspect who for all we know was merely a citizen fitting the description of a vandal (again i'll repeat we don't know if the officer witnessed the vandalism and there are no indications that he did and some to the contrary)


just admit you probably misunderstood and blew your top like 7seven did Or, As i've said, I could have been unclear

[Geoc]

StylinRed, stop using the skater's account as a factual evidence. The kid can easily make biased information or straight-up lies.

But really, I am sick of the try hard thug-wannabes with their 'rebellious' "fuck the police or fight the power" attitudes. When the law comes down on them, they proceed to suck on their thumbs and cry foul and act like a hapless victim.

[GabAlmighty]

Damn, I guess I should watch my mouth.. Probably gonna get shot next time I do something stupid.

[7seven]

just admit you probably misunderstood and blew your top like 7seven did

Oh I didn't misunderstand or "blew my top", I think most on this site would actually know me as one of the more clam/rational members here. I like many others here just got tired of seeing you post one sided conclusions/statements based on a vague statement by Mr. Evans/PIVOT side of the events. I just posted another possible conclusion one can deduce from that same exact Evans/PIVOT statement.

[StylinRed]

Oh I didn't misunderstand if you did you would have noted the times i said "assume" & "based on whats known" & where i conceded it may turn out to be completely different but you took my comments like i was presenting them as facts or "blew my top", I think most on this site would actually know me as one of the more clam/rational members here. ive known ye since celicagrage days and i agree thats why i categorized it under "blew my top" because its very unlike you :P

I like many others here just got tired of seeing you post one sided conclusions/statements based on a vague statement by Mr. Evans/PIVOT side of the events.

based on what info we had at the time; you just didnt like it ;)


I just posted another possible conclusion one can deduce from that same exact Evans/PIVOT statement.

not really but sure :P

[Soundy]

I think most on this site would actually know me as one of the more clam/rational members here.

http://beachchairscientist.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/happy-as-a-clam.jpg

[lungfish23]

According to vpd twitter they will be having a press conference at 1030 today addressing their policy, training and the civil suit.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[7seven]

According to vpd twitter they will be having a press conference at 1030 today addressing their policy, training and the civil suit.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

VPD press conference and statement
VPD Police Dog Training and Policy | Vancouver Police Department (http://vpdreleases.icontext.com/2012/01/30/7763/)

Deputy Chief Constable Adam Palmer
Remarks

Good morning and thank you for coming.

It is normally our practice in civil suits to not speak publicly about the details of the case until it has concluded its court process.

The standard line I’m sure you have all heard and quoted many times is that we will not be discussing it further since the matter is before the courts.

We have been criticized for taking that position. There are those in the media who argue that it is unnecessary and that we simply use the phrase to avoid commenting. There are also those who argue that we should answer those publicly who make allegations against us publicly.

We hear you and we have decided to judge each case in the future accordingly.

In the recent case of a man who has decided to sue the city after being arrested and bitten by a police dog, we have decided to provide the public with more information on this matter.

You are all aware of Mr. Evan’s statement of claim.

In the interest of balance, here are the facts listed in the police report:


On June 12, 2011, at approximately 00:45 hours, Mr. Evans intentionally repeatedly smashed the passenger door window of a transit bus.


This occurred in the 1400 block of East Hastings.


Mr. Evans used his skateboard to smash the bus window.


VPD members, including Dog Master Rich Lee. responded to the mischief call.
Constable Lee observed Mr. Evans, who matched the suspect description, run westbound in the south lane of East Hastings.


The suspect was alone, and still carrying his skateboard.


Constable Lee had his siren and emergency lights activated as he entered the lane. Constable Lee turned off his siren but kept his emergency lights on. He then exited his vehicle and yelled, “Vancouver Police — stop or I will send my dog.”


Mr. Evan’s continued to run, and Constable Lee deployed his dog.


The dog made contact with Mr. Evans. Mr. Evans struggled and as a result the dog had to re-apply its bite three times.


The dog application lasted briefly before Constable Lee could gain control of Mr. Evans.


Mr. Evans was handcuffed and arrested for mischief.


He was transported to VGH where he was treated for his injuries.


Mr. Evans required medical attention to close the wound to his leg.


Mr. Evans was issued a Promise to Appear at the hospital for mischief Under $5000.


Crown eventual stayed the mischief charge.


To further help you understand the role the police dog plays in law enforcement, we have two reports that we promised you earlier and are now in a position to share with you.

We understand that the actions we are taking today may seem controversial to some and troublesome to those who might prefer we remain silent.

But in many ways, as we come before you today, we share a common goal –seeking and speaking the truth.

Transit surveillance footage of Evans on youtube from news1130, for those that don't want to watch the entire press conference link above
VPD shows video of man who was later bit by police dog - YouTube

around the 23:00 mark in this link for zoomed in version of transit surveillance footage Skateboarder apprehended by Police Dog updateon Vancouver Police - live streaming video powered by Livestream (http://www.livestream.com/vancouverpolice/video?clipId=pla_b5ecd105-1dc3-4877-a97b-b5d9df0ab43b&utm_source=lslibrary&utm_medium=ui-thumb)

Other comments made by Deputy Chief Constable Adam Palmer during presser:
-Officer Lee had Mr. Evans' in custody within under a minute
-on Mr. Evans' claim he had headphones in, Palmer didn't know if he did or not but commented that Officer Lee pulled into the dark lane with his vehicle lights and sirens on, sirens turned off but even if subject had headphones in would've seen police lights in dark alley.


After hearing the VPDs side and their incident report, personally I'm skeptical of Mr. Evans' claim that he did not know officers were behind him, you would have to be pretty deaf or really have volume cranked up really high not to hear a siren directly behind you, and you would surely be able to see the the blue/red lights lighting up the alley even if you couldn't hear, but Mr. Evans kept running.

After viewing the transit footage, it does not appear he just took a swing at the bus out of frustration, that looked like pretty malicious intent to do harm and damage. Now I do agree the result of his injuries were pretty severe for his crime but it is of my opinion that he was fleeing and didn't want to be caught for his crime, again this is just my opinion. Struggling with the police dog just made his injuries worst, yes I know its not easy to remain calm when a dog is biting you (I have been bit by a military service dog in training exercises), but it is possible and to stop struggling which will in most cases cause the dog and handler to release.

Could the officer handled the arrest in another method? Absolutely, however it was his judgement call on site and it would appear that all proper protocol and procedures were followed.

[JD¹³]

With that said, the guys a retard as he would have seen the lights. Very questionable that a dog was required but can't fault the officer for following procedure.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[zulutango]

And now ....the rest of the story...Glad VPD decided to squash this with the facts of what really happened. And Pivot is saying..................................?

[taylor192]

The Sun has the bus video:

Vancouver police fight back over police dog bite lawsuit (video) (http://www.vancouversun.com/Vancouver+police+fight+back+over+police+bite+lawsu it+video/6073860/story.html)

The guy is a tard, he hits the bus several times. Hopefully the keyboard warriors supporting this thug change their tune after seeing the video.

[Noir]

The 33-year-old hopped on his skateboard and headed home along East Hastings Street, only realized he was being pursued by police when a German shepherd sank its teeth into his right calf.
OR SO HE CLAIMS.


OR SO HE CLAIMS.



Headphones in his ears, Evans fell to ground with the dog tearing at his right calf and thigh.



I don't know the details of police dog training, but it seems to me NOT instantly shredding a suspect would be a big part of it. How much you wanna bet this guy was beating the dog with his skateboard?


Common sense just screams that the "headphones" excuse as a reason why he wasn't complying immediately is so sketch to the core.

Who skateboards down a busy stretch of pavement with music blasting loud enough that you're oblivious to your environment. What if it was a car horn honking you from behind? What if it was a cyclist ringing you from behind? Do you not notice all the people you pass looking with bewilderment at you and the dog & cop chasing you?

It's quite amusing and sad at the same time when you see people just eating all the media spin up as fact without applying their own common sense into it. Unless he's a complete moron (which I doubt his ego will allow him to admit if he were) there's no way he was realistically unaware of his progressing situation at the time of the incident.

[Noir]

StylinRed, stop using the skater's account as a factual evidence. The kid can easily make biased information or straight-up lies.

But really, I am sick of the try hard thug-wannabes with their 'rebellious' "fuck the police or fight the power" attitudes. When the law comes down on them, they proceed to suck on their thumbs and cry foul and act like a hapless victim.

+1.

After watching the video, I'm always happy to see tough guy wannabe's with the "don't fuck with me" attitude get humbled.

I welcome the fails but Evans totally fucking deserves ALL his injuries. The only thing that sucks... is that Vancouver is full of those "don't fuck with me" assholes.

[GLOW]

And Pivot is saying..................................?

i'd actually be interested in hearing their response to this...

[Geoc]

+1.

After watching the video, I'm always happy to see tough guy wannabe's with the "don't fuck with me" attitude get humbled.

I welcome the fails but Evans totally fucking deserves ALL his injuries. The only thing that sucks... is that Vancouver is full of those "don't fuck with me" assholes.
The man's a 33 year-old 'sk8er boi', I'd be more surprised if he didn't have that attitude :lawl:

[Nlkko]

This fucktard should be thankful he didn't win the Darwin award. Let's repeatedly smash on the bus window in public and stick around for good minutes. Then when an officer of the law with sirens and lights say stop or he would send the dog, this monkey keep running away.

Add your meme:
http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/6058165.bin

[zulutango]

i'd actually be interested in hearing their response to this...


Probably the same deafening silence we heard out of them after the VPD shooting splashed back at them.

[Excelsis]

oh after watching the video, that's pure karma for what he did

i get angry but i don't become an idiot and do that type of shit, all of his injuries he deserves

at first i thought he smashed just a store window and ran away, didn't read carefully

you do stupid shit, it comes around to bite you :fuckthatshit:

[Geoc]

Cameras don't lie :fuckyea:

[seakrait]

To start off, let me be clear that I'm not on this idiot skater's side (I'd be the last person). But to play devil's advocate a bit, the Translink security video I saw only shows what we already know; that this idiot smashed a bus window. It doesn't show what is in dispute (ie: the following arrest made by the PSD and dog handler). It's a he said/she said issue right now. But, based on what we've seen, I'm sure a majority of people would choose to side with the police just based on the skater's prior actions.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[Great68]

I feed bad for the people who were on the bus, they were all probably shitting their pants thinking some crazy guy was trying to smash his way onto to bus, potentially harming them.

If the dog tearing apart this guy's leg was excessive, I don't know.

What I DO know, is that I definately don't feel bad for him at all anymore.

[Graeme S]

you do stupid shit, it comes around to bite you :fuckthatshit:

http://memeorama.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/I-See-What-You-Did-There-Rage-Face-Meme.png

[pastarocket]

An example of karma coming back to bite you, literally.

[gars]

According the original article - he claims that 3 buses drove past him. I don't know where he was standing if they drove past him, because this bus was definitely stopped at the bus stop. If he is lying about this, I wouldn't be surprised if he's lying about other details.

[Presto]

Fuck that little bitch. That video reams him.
Problem, PIVOT??

[StylinRed]

Well Im glad the VPD decided on releasing this information

The video of him smashing the bus made him look downright maniacal, Im glad they caught him.


However,(you knew it was coming :P) I still do not agree with the deployment of the dog and as admitted by the officer,
"Constable Lee observed Mr. Evans, who matched the suspect description, run westbound in the south lane of East Hastings.
The officer set his dog on an everyday citizen who matched the description of a mischief suspect; which is what I've been pointing out as likely possibility all along.

What if that's all he was? a guy matching a description...

I'll admit the suspect likely knew there was a squad car nearby, behind him for that matter, after all those lights are penetrating however even the police gave him the benefit of doubt.


But did the officer need to unleash his dog? the answer should be no; after all the officer had his squad car but he chose to give Fido a bit of exercise, even though there was that possibility that this wasn't the vandal.

And that's what PIVOT is saying here, their concern is the liberal use of K9 units in Vancouver (they compare it to other municipalities) their concern isn't whether Mr. Evans is guilty or not, after all Evans admitted to breaking the window, their concern is the liberal use of dogs isn't justified, be it this case or another, given the possible damage.

Some seem to think that PIVOT is defending this guys actions, which they aren't.

& Those saying he deserved the dog bites are saying it from a point of anger and forgetting that there is a justice system to deal with this guy; if you want officers to be judge/jury/executioner go live in Somalia (even then officers understand that's not their role)

[Gumby]

"Constable Lee observed Mr. Evans, who matched the suspect description, run westbound in the south lane of East Hastings.
The officer set his dog on an everyday citizen who matched the description of a mischief suspect; which is what I've been pointing out as likely possibility all along.

What if that's all he was? a guy matching a description...
I don't really understand why you're so hung up on the "matched the suspect description" part. If you're looking for someone that matches the description, you go after them, right? It's not like he went after someone that didn't match the description...

[StylinRed]

I don't really understand why you're so hung up on the "matched the suspect description" part. If you're looking for someone that matches the description, you go after them, right? It's not like he went after someone that didn't match the description...

because someone who matches a description isn't guaranteed to be the suspect

and so how can you go so far as to send a dog after them which has the potential of killing this supposed suspect ? (this guy has nerve damage that'll effect him for life)

sure you go after them... but since you dont know if thats your suspect how can you go full force? especially a vandal suspect, how do you justify the force?


its like in the states where they see a black guy walking on the street and the police go and abuse him and say "well he matches a description" (of a black guy) :seriously:

[MarkyMark]

Basically a DNA test should have been done before the dog was released
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[StylinRed]

Basically a DNA test should have been done before the dog was released
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

no the dog shouldnt have been released at all... the officer should have gone after him and he shouldn't go after him with force either unless that guy resists...

or if the officer knew with certainty that that was the suspect (like he witnessed the vandalism) then send the dog...

the dog isnt meant to go after everyday citizens simply because they're carrying a skateboard that some vandal carried elsewhere...

hell maybe the police should be sicking their dogs on every wannabe gangster because the match the description of one of the shooters from a murder...


what you guys seem to be missing here is this is to protect everyday normal citizens and not to protect criminals...

[Graeme S]

because someone who matches a description isn't guaranteed to be the suspect

and so how can you go so far as to send a dog after them which has the potential of killing this supposed suspect ? (this guy has nerve damage that'll effect him for life)

sure you go after them... but since you dont know if thats your suspect how can you go full force? especially a vandal suspect, how do you justify the force?


its like in the states where they see a black guy walking on the street and the police go and abuse him and say "well he matches a description" (of a black guy) :seriously:
He matched the description. He went into the alley with lights on. He called out to the suspect. He warned the suspect he'd release the dog. He released the dog.


Sure, it might not have been everything that was possibly humanly doable...but if he kept driving and tried to chase the guy down, he might have ducked off and had to release the dog on him anyways.

For all we know, the officer stopped his cruiser almost immediately behind the suspect, who continued to run at which point the officer did all these things.

But that's the point we don't know. Sure, the guy is scarred and has issues. I'm not unsympathetic...but there are risks to everything. Crime tends to be more risky than obedience.

[Nlkko]

Everyday citizen will stop the fuck up when they see a cruiser with sirens and lights following them. This fuck isn't everyday citizen. I'm willing to bet the dog would never have been released if this monkey have followed order to stop. Wearing earphone is a weak excuse. This is not your "black guy in the states" case, that's a weak analogy.

Stop fucking putting this motherfucker in the everyday citizen class. I am insulted.

[StylinRed]

He matched the description. He went into the alley with lights on. He called out to the suspect. He warned the suspect he'd release the dog. He released the dog.


Sure, it might not have been everything that was possibly humanly doable...but if he kept driving and tried to chase the guy down, he might have ducked off and had to release the dog on him anyways.

For all we know, the officer stopped his cruiser almost immediately behind the suspect, who continued to run at which point the officer did all these things.

But that's the point we don't know. Sure, the guy is scarred and has issues. I'm not unsympathetic...but there are risks to everything. Crime tends to be more risky than obedience.


I can see how people would be fine with what occurred, I can't though.

I don't doubt the officer called out a warning either its sop and they rarely forget to (ive dealt with some cases in which they have though) but IMO with a suspect who clearly didn't express they heard you and the possibility that they aren't your vandal suspect you shouldn't be releasing the dog.

Its obviously a view that isn't shared by many on here and I feel its because in retrospect we know the officer got the right guy

Im asking though if the officer got the wrong guy would the reaction be the same? The answer would be no we can see that with the case of "mistaken identity" when the officers beat Mr. Yao Wei Wu up
http://www.news1130.com/news/local/article/19551--man-injured-by-vpd-in-case-of-mistaken-identity
http://www.news1130.com/news/local/article/32618--man-mistakenly-beaten-by-police-files-lawsuit-against-city-and-vpd
http://www.news1130.com/news/local/article/124161--two-vpd-officers-cleared-of-charges-in-a-beating-case
http://www.news1130.com/news/local/article/324969--court-quashes-call-for-inquiry-into-vpd-mistaken-id-beating

And what happens in a case like that? police say "oh we're sorry, that's too bad" and nothing happens, nothing.

What PIVOT is trying to do is to curb cases like that so there wouldn't even be a simple apology given as the incident would never have happened




Everyday citizen will stop the fuck up IF they see a cruiser with sirens and lights following them. This fuck isn't everyday citizen. I'm willing to bet the dog would never have been released if this monkey have followed order to stop. Wearing earphone is a weak excuse. This is not your "black guy in the states" case, that's a weak analogy.

Stop fucking putting this motherfucker in the everyday citizen class. I am insulted.

fixed. &

this goes back to my point... you guys feel PIVOT and I are defending the vandal, Mr. Evans, but we're not....

[Graeme S]

I'm asking though if the officer got the wrong guy would the reaction be the same?

No. But since we're playing the 'what if' game...
When the police hear reports of a crazed man who is willing to smash public property, should they simply go about their business and do nothing? If someone else were hurt by this guy (let's assume he wasn't just calmly skating home and was going to take his anger out on someone else), what would the public's reaction to that have been? "VPD pays little regard to bus vandal, assault victim alleges"

If we play the what if game, we'll end up coming up with a quintrillion possibilities. Yes, when there are people like this who are hit with problems they are victims. Yet they are not only victims of a mistake, but victims of their own mistake as well. There have been many cases of the VPD and the RCMP being blamed both for acting too quickly and not quickly enough. Waiting for more information for too long, or moving before they had it and making a mistake.


No matter what mistake they make they will be criticized. If it is the right action at the wrong time, they get shat on. If it is the wrong action at the right time, they are shat on. If it is the wrong action at the wrong time, again...shit is blown (often out of proportion).

While you are trying to apply the worst case scenario in the case of 'what if it was someone like me caught in that situation', I would ask you the opposite: what if it had been your mother standing on that bus and this attack had triggered her asthma or similar trigger-able health ailment? What if she had gone to hospital because of this guy and were out of commission just because he had three busses pass him? Wouldn't you be just as pissed and chasing after him and the cops (especially if the cops hadn't deployed the dogs and he'd escaped).




I am not beyond defending defendants when they have done the wrong things for the right reasons, or even the wrong things for questionable reasons, or questionable things for questionable reasons.

This, in my mind, is none of those.

[StylinRed]

No. But since we're playing the 'what if' game...



it's not a simple "what if" game though as when that term is used people feel its a rare possibility for "if" to occur

but it isnt.


And since you said "No." then wouldn't you be for advocating measures that prevent that from occurring? especially when "If" happens rather often and the Risks of damage is so great?


As for your quote of a "what if" incident...
Originally Posted by Graeme S View Post
When the police hear reports of a crazed man who is willing to smash public property, should they simply go about their business and do nothing? If someone else were hurt by this guy (let's assume he wasn't just calmly skating home and was going to take his anger out on someone else), what would the public's reaction to that have been? "VPD pays little regard to bus vandal, assault victim alleges"

No one is telling the police to sit on their laurels and ignore the incident here.. no one is saying the police should have let a suspect just continue on his way....


I would ask you the opposite: what if it had been your mother standing on that bus and this attack had triggered her asthma or similar trigger-able health ailment? What if she had gone to hospital because of this guy and were out of commission just because he had three busses pass him? Wouldn't you be just as pissed and chasing after him and the cops (especially if the cops hadn't deployed the dogs and he'd escaped).

again you're looking at it from the point of view where this guy running on the street = the vandal 100% without a shadow of doubt; At that time that wasn't the case

Ive said it a few times now... but i am not defending Mr. Evans... AT ALL; would you be fine with knowing that the police had crippled an innocent guy because he matched the description of the vandal?


As for saying the suspect would have gotten away if it hadn't been for the dog, I seriously doubt that, but let's say that really happened, I'd be fine with it if the circumstances painted the proper scenario.

[Graeme S]

it's not a simple "what if" game though as when that term is used people feel its a rare possibility for "if" to occur

but it isnt.
Yes, that is how it's used and it's your choice to say that it isn't. My opinion differs and we'll just have to leave it at that. I very much doubt that there is anything that could be done to convince me.
And since you said "No." then wouldn't you be for advocating measures that prevent that from occurring? especially when "If" happens rather often and the Risks of damage is so great?

Advocating measures? Absolutely. Within reason? Even more absolutely. (Yes, I know that's impossible).


Ever seen "Demolition Man"? If you haven't, it's about a namby-pamby ridiculous impossible future in which everyone is sweet and soft spoken and cops are useless and don't know what to do when a criminal appears.

Simon Phoenix - YouTube
(From 6:55 - whenever you feel like stopping watching. Also: Wesley, :yuno: choose better movie?!

Now, I'm not saying that the police force here will turn into that. I am saying that we can't judge police actions NOW knowing what we do. This is why I always try and emphasize putting yourself in their shoes knowing what they know then. Humans are imperfect. Cops are humans. Ergo, regardless of what we would like, Cops are imperfect.

[Presto]

When I read you responses, StylinRed, I can't help but find myself like this: :fulloffuck: (with a bald, scarred, putrid head, though)

[StylinRed]

Advocating measures? Absolutely. Within reason? Even more absolutely. (Yes, I know that's impossible).


That's why i agree with PIVOT and am trying to get people to support that by painting the picture of the risks but it doesnt seem to be working :okay: :P

Ever seen "Demolition Man"? If you haven't, it's about a namby-pamby ridiculous impossible future in which everyone is sweet and soft spoken and cops are useless and don't know what to do when a criminal appears.

Simon Phoenix - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU9JfStfkAw)
(From 6:55 - whenever you feel like stopping watching. Also: Wesley, :yuno: choose better movie?!

Now, I'm not saying that the police force here will turn into that. I am saying that we can't judge police actions NOW knowing what we do. This is why I always try and emphasize putting yourself in their shoes knowing what they know then. Humans are imperfect. Cops are humans. Ergo, regardless of what we would like, Cops are imperfect.

I love demolition man! and I thought Wesley was great in it :P
but i think its silly to suggest that the restrictions PIVOT and others are hoping for would lead to a society like that side note their society/crime prevention was working great until a 20th century guy showed up :P

[Graeme S]

That's why i agree with PIVOT and am trying to get people to support that by painting the picture of the risks but it doesnt seem to be working :okay:
Because nobody here who is not on your side would take any kind of action even remotely close to anything near what this guy did.

[StylinRed]

Because nobody here who is not on your side would take any kind of action even remotely close to anything near what this guy did.

lol again im not defending That guy; nobody seems to get that point in


look @ the case i linked of Yao Wei Wu the police were after a guy who was beating his wife, surely a guy beating his wife deserves a beating, and what happened some guy matching the description got beat luckily they didnt permanently damage his eye (exactly my point)

[Graeme S]

lol again im not defending That guy; nobody seems to get that point in
Then clarify what you are trying to say. And express it without using that douche as an example.

[StylinRed]

Then clarify what you are trying to say. And express it without using that douche as an example.

lol i have been about a billion times in here but people dont care they just want to think about that guy ('blind with rage' comes to mind)

[Noir]

StylinRed. Just man up and admit you were wrong.

Stop dancing with the half measure "you understand the contrary POV now" yet you still disagree in principle "out-card". There's a point where you don't even have an agenda anymore and you're just arguing for your pride's sake. I think that point was around pg 4 or something.

[StylinRed]

StylinRed. Just man up and admit you were wrong.

Stop dancing with the half measure "you understand the contrary POV now" yet you still disagree in principle "out-card". There's a point where you don't even have an agenda anymore and you're just arguing for your pride's sake. I think that point was around pg 4 or something.

no actually i wasnt wrong... in fact the officer proved i was right (they went after a guy who simply fit a description) i was never denying Evans wasn't the vandal... as from the get go when we got this story Evans had admitted guilt

from the beginning my argument was based on the facts we had and assumed that the police didnt witness the incident and they let their dogs out on a guy who simply fit the description; and that is something too dangerous/wrong to do due to the risks

over the pages ive simply had to repeat it over and over again to various people (maybe because i was unclear or misunderstood or people didnt want to understand or a combination of all)

I think Graeme and my chat should have cleared everything up though (edit: i guess not ;)) but now it looks like its your turn?

[taylor192]

When I read you responses, StylinRed, I can't help but find myself like this: :fulloffuck: (with a bald, scarred, putrid head, though)

:awwyeah::lawl::thumbs:

[7seven]

Just to clarify, PIVOT already recently lost a battle with the VPD and the Police Board (Chaired by Gregor Robertson, who is pretty left wing or as I call it hippie) challenging dog-training methods and the criteria under which dog squads are deployed. This report I believe was provided again to the media during this mornings VPD press conference.

The new lawsuit filed last week is seeking monetary damages from VPD and the City of Vancouver on behalf of Mr. Evans' as he felt his injuries were too severe and the VPD were too aggressive resulting in his injuries and his lost of job and apartment. This is a civil claim with Mr. Evans' seeking money and PIVOT using the media attention of the lawsuit to try to force the VPD to rethink their dog training and deployment policies again (which they already lost a battle on).

On Mr. Evans' trying to gain monetary damages, I feel he should not get anything and my personal opinion is that he should have to pay VPDs and the City's legal costs. His damages and injuries I feel where solely brought upon himself by committing the offence, fleeing from the police and struggling with the police dog. I am of the opinion that proper warnings, protocol and procedures where followed and Mr. Evans' is lying about not realizing he was being pursued by a peace officer.

Although it is no secret my dislike for PIVOT, they are free to use this lawsuit to try and force VPD's hand again, personally I don't believe there needs to be another review, but that's my opinion and others like Stylinred are free to disagree. There are already a set of protocol when service dogs should be deployed on a subject. I kind of understand what Stylinred is trying to say "what if" this wasn't the correct subject, but if this was an innocent civilian, they wouldn't have kept fleeing and ignoring police commands (I think most will now agree that they feel Evans' was lying about not knowing he was being chased by police). Even if one did not understand english, they would respond by not fleeing a uniformed officer with emergency lights and sirens on. It's not like the officer just saw someone who fit the description and released the dog without verbal warnings and trying to stop them with verbal commands, emergency sirens and lights. At least thats my opinion.

[impactX]

Wonder how Mr. Evans feel about being used by PIVOT.
:fuckthatshit:

[StylinRed]

Wonder how Mr. Evans feel about being used by PIVOT.
:fuckthatshit:

hopefully he's all for it :)

[Psykopathik]

Looks like the same injuries a crackhead that stole my car had (long ago). how i fucking laughed when they police dogs grabbed him.

[zulutango]

Wonder how Mr. Evans feel about being used by PIVOT.
:fuckthatshit:


Oh I bet he feels so,......so.....used, so cheap........:ilied:

[FerrariEnzo]

WTF... i though he said that the bus "just took off when i got to the stop" but you can clearly see that the bus left the stop a long ways... NO bus driver would stop in this case..

the guys swearing... VPD can use ALL the passengers as witness to what happen... 30+ people on the bus saw what ACTUALLY happen..

the Dogs are trained for 1 thing, STOP people.. if they dont stop, the dog has to decided on what to do... prolly thinking:
Guy on skateboard, barking didnt work... should I sit and wait for my handler while he takes off or TAKE HIM DOWN..

[Soundy]

Bruce Allen shredded the guy on his Reality Check spot on NW today, starting with how stupid it is to be wearing headphones while skateboarding in the first place and having no sympathy for the dipshit "not hearing" the cops yelling at him to stop. Look it up on the podcast if you get the chance - Bruce is dead on, this guy is three times stupid in this and has nobody to blame but himself for his eventual demise.

[Noir]

WTF... i though he said that the bus "just took off when i got to the stop" but you can clearly see that the bus left the stop a long ways... NO bus driver would stop in this case..

the guys swearing... VPD can use ALL the passengers as witness to what happen... 30+ people on the bus saw what ACTUALLY happen..

the Dogs are trained for 1 thing, STOP people.. if they dont stop, the dog has to decided on what to do... prolly thinking:
Guy on skateboard, barking didnt work... should I sit and wait for my handler while he takes off or TAKE HIM DOWN..

Only StylinRed's dogs. A thief can break and enter his house and I bet he's trained to sit there and wait for legal due process before it even considers barking at said thief. But hey, at least it's 100% certain he got the right guy :lol

[StylinRed]

Only StylinRed's dogs. A thief can break and enter his house and I bet he's trained to sit there and wait for legal due process before it even considers barking at said thief. But hey, at least it's 100% certain he got the right guy :lol

well there are 2 methods to train dogs the bite/hold and the sit and bark most in NA are taught bite/hold groups are trying to get them to switch :)

but i dont expect the dog to make decisions :p

[Soundy]

Aaaaaaand here we go: every two-bit hood who gets even barked at by a PSD is going to be jumping on the bandwagon: Local News Story (http://www.cknw.com/Channels/Reg/NewsLocal/Story.aspx?ID=1647784)


New West Police investigate Surrey dog bite
VANCOUVER/CKNW AM 980
Alison Bailey | alison.bailey@corusent.com
1/31/2012


New Westminster Police are investigating after a 16 year old was injured by a police dog in Surrey last weekend.

Chief Superintendant Janice Armstrong says police are concerned with the injuries the teenager suffered.

He was bitten on his face and arm.

His parents call it "mutilation".

Armstrong says the dog handler has been placed on administrative duties.

The police dog has been removed from operational duty.

Armstrong says the dog handler has about eight and half years with the RCMP, nearly a year and half in dog services.

The teen was arrested after the police were called to a break and enter at a Surrey gas station early Saturday morning.

[Snake Eyes]

Its sad in this day and age that the public has lost so much faith in the police that they have to see the actual footage of this clown destroying property , and acting like a jack ass for them to believe the police version of the events.

Regardless, good on the VPD to shut all the 'nay sayers down by posting the vid.

[StylinRed]

Aaaaaaand here we go: every two-bit hood who gets even barked at by a PSD is going to be jumping on the bandwagon: Local News Story (http://www.cknw.com/Channels/Reg/NewsLocal/Story.aspx?ID=1647784)

yeah that happened a couple days ago the RCMP said something along the lines of if they knew it was a teenager they were after they would have assessed the situation differently in that case though the teen did a B&E and police were on the scene believe it or not i actually have no qualms about this incident :P

but with the recent news of K9 bites you can be sure the media will be reporting these instances more than they have

its the media, and that was probably the hope of PIVOT too so as to bring more discussion to the issue

an article before the administrative leave http://www.news1130.com/news/local/article/325350--teen-bitten-by-police-dog-after-surrey-break-in


SURREY (NEWS1130) - Surrey RCMP are reviewing their response after siccing a dog on a teenaged suspect running from the scene of a break-in at a North Surrey gas station early Saturday morning.

The 16-year-old was bitten in the face and had to be taken to hospital with non-life threatening injuries. Sgt. Peter Thiessen explains had they known it was a teen, things may have been done differently.

"If you have some foresight and you're able to determine that the individual you're pursuing is in fact a young offender and not an adult, then there are other factors that come into play as to, what is the suspected crime and is it warranted to pursue? Is it a serious offence?" Thiessen explains.

...







Its sad in this day and age that the public has lost so much faith in the police that they have to see the actual footage of this clown destroying property , and acting like a jack ass for them to believe the police version of the events.

Regardless, good on the VPD to shut all the 'nay sayers down by posting the vid.

people weren't doubting that the guy smashed the bus window... why can't supporters understand that? :suspicious:

just look @ the comments on the news sites etc people are mad about the use of the dog they arent arguing about whether he deserved it or he didnt do it

[SE3P-T]

My thought to this is... If you listen to the cops, this shouldn't happen, you run and that's fail to arrest... Either they point the gun at you or get the dogs to catch you ...

But why you will break the bus window or door if the drivers are not opening the door for you ?? That's a stupid move...
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[Phil@rise]

To many of you people live thru life with blinders on. Oblivious to reality only to what pertains directly infront of you. When this kinda stuff happens to you or people you know thats when the wakeup call comes. Our supposedly trustworthy ethically superior morally correct police force is human just like you and me and they fuck up. The difference between us and them is accountability.
I had two undercover cops try to pick a fight between me and a couple friends to the point of calling one of my friend a drunk indian. When I told them to fuck off we werent interested in trouble and to back off next thing I knew I was up against a wall and bein read my rights for bein a trouble maker like WTF.
Thats my story.
How many other cases do we see every year where cops excersize poor judgment and nothin gets done.
Simply put the percentage off stupid cops to smart cops is way higher then that of stupid civilians to smart civilians.

[Gumby]

To many of you people live thru life with blinders on. Oblivious to reality only to what pertains directly infront of you. When this kinda stuff happens to you or people you know thats when the wakeup call comes. Our supposedly trustworthy ethically superior morally correct police force is human just like you and me and they fuck up. The difference between us and them is accountability.
I had two undercover cops try to pick a fight between me and a couple friends to the point of calling one of my friend a drunk indian. When I told them to fuck off we werent interested in trouble and to back off next thing I knew I was up against a wall and bein read my rights for bein a trouble maker like WTF.
Thats my story.
How many other cases do we see every year where cops excersize poor judgment and nothin gets done.
Simply put the percentage off stupid cops to smart cops is way higher then that of stupid civilians to smart civilians.
What were you and your friends doing when two undercover cops tried to pick a fight with you? Something stupid I bet!

[Soundy]

What were you and your friends doing when two undercover cops tried to pick a fight with you? Something stupid I bet!

Nothing, nothing at all!

At least, nothing that seemed stupid at the time...

[Ludepower]

Nothing, nothing at all!

At least, nothing that seemed stupid at the time...

details sir....

[dangonay]

Simply put the percentage off stupid cops to smart cops is way higher then that of stupid civilians to smart civilians.
Stupid comment of the day goes to....
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[Phil@rise]

What were you and your friends doing when two undercover cops tried to pick a fight with you? Something stupid I bet!

Crossing Granville street on the way to the skytrain station. I'm a 35 year old dad I dont cause trouble and neither do those I hang out with. I figure these two upstanding officers of the law had issue with how my "drunk indian" friend looked. 6 foot 6 300 plus pounds and plenty of ink. Thats only one story of personal experience with cops and stupid judgment I have more.

[StylinRed]

What were you and your friends doing when two undercover cops tried to pick a fight with you? Something stupid I bet!

Nothing, nothing at all!

At least, nothing that seemed stupid at the time...


the same people who defend the police for "being human" when they do something undeniably wrong are quick to assume that the police can never do wrong and it must be the victims who are at fault... you cant have it both ways

[RabidRat]

What were you and your friends doing when two undercover cops tried to pick a fight with you? Something stupid I bet!

Dude jumping to conclusions here makes you no better than all the others getting on the fuckthepigs bandwagon.