[Gridlock]

Surprised to see there was no thread on this.

Highlights of how much life costs us:

How the B.C. budget hits your family's pocketbook | CTV British Columbia (http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20120221/bc_budget_homeowners_tax_credit_1202/20120221?hub=BritishColumbiaHome)

My favorite.

Falcon considers business tax hike to balance budget | CTV British Columbia (http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20120221/bc_clark_tweets_budget_plans_120221/20120221?hub=BritishColumbia)

"Falcon said he is prepared to raise the general corporate income tax rate to 11 per cent from 10 per cent in April 2014 if the budget situation doesn't show signs of improvement."

So, we'll make business more expensive to operate in BC, because that will help a struggling economy.

Here's a tip...eliminate the HST as soon as possible. I did find it interesting in one of the articles discussing the renovation industry seeking some assistance with the HST, and people putting off purchases to wait it out, he said something to the effect of, "well, help is coming in terms of returning the PST and reducing to a 5% sales tax as a result" which is the first admission that some industries were heavily affected by its introduction, in my opinion.

What are everyone else's thoughts? I few gimmes for the groups that Clark would like to have vote for her.

[Nightwalker]

I'd prefer the HST was not eliminated in the first place.

[Bahhbeehhaaaa]

+1 for HST.. i kinda saw this coming since last year..

[unit]

worst budget ever

[Gnomes]

Wondering how did BC come in such bad shape financially? One of lowest wage for teachers + healthcare, massive debts, etc. Any cole's notes answer?

[taylor192]

"Falcon said he is prepared to raise the general corporate income tax rate to 11 per cent from 10 per cent in April 2014 if the budget situation doesn't show signs of improvement."

So, we'll make business more expensive to operate in BC, because that will help a struggling economy.
Well he has a choice: either tax people, or tax business. People voted against the HST, so they said tax business.

If business leaves, we have only ourselves to blame.

Here's a tip...eliminate the HST as soon as possible. I did find it interesting in one of the articles discussing the renovation industry seeking some assistance with the HST, and people putting off purchases to wait it out, he said something to the effect of, "well, help is coming in terms of returning the PST and reducing to a 5% sales tax as a result" which is the first admission that some industries were heavily affected by its introduction, in my opinion.
I considered waiting a year to buy a car cause I'd save a huge chunk of cash. Ultimately I chose to buy now, and many will regardless of the HST.

The home renovation and the home buying tax credits are crap. They only bring forward business by convincing people to buy now what they would have later. No-one is going to decide to do a $10K home reno to get a 10% tax credit, or buy a $400K home to get a $10K tax credit. Remember, its a tax credit, thus its not like you actually get 10% or $10K. More like you'll get 20% of that.

[taylor192]

Wondering how did BC come in such bad shape financially? One of lowest wage for teachers + healthcare, massive debts, etc. Any cole's notes answer?

Everyone is in bad shape, unemployment is still high compared to before the 2008 crash. This means tax revenues are down, while everyone expects the government to spend on stimulus.

[Gridlock]

Well he has a choice: either tax people, or tax business. People voted against the HST, so they said tax business.

If business leaves, we have only ourselves to blame.


I considered waiting a year to buy a car cause I'd save a huge chunk of cash. Ultimately I chose to buy now, and many will regardless of the HST.

The home renovation and the home buying tax credits are crap. They only bring forward business by convincing people to buy now what they would have later. No-one is going to decide to do a $10K home reno to get a 10% tax credit, or buy a $400K home to get a $10K tax credit. Remember, its a tax credit, thus its not like you actually get 10% or $10K. More like you'll get 20% of that.

Yeah, people will make that conscious decision. BUUUUT

Do you think everyone is? Even if its not a conscious decision, but a "we had better wait right now" and later, with no HST, the decision is, now's a good time AND less tax.

I really don't think this should be an HST argument really, but the BC economy as a whole, but this is the problem with a long waiting period to remove the HST. They are stalling, and I don't like it. They are using the increased revenue to balance their books, and hope to get the house in order before writing that 1 billion check to the feds.

Or possibly hoping that it will get put off long enough that it just stays? Seems a little tin hat for my taste.

One little gem that I liked from the budget is getting out of the liquor distribution business. Well, the actual warehouse distribution of it. Just the warehouses. Still...its a start. Tell me, why the fuck our government sells and distributes liquor. Tell me why these guys get paid something ridiculous to sell me booze? Start with the warehouses, and then go for the stores. One less union to deal with for a start.

That's the kind of thinking we need more of. How can we get out of shit we don't need to be in?

[taylor192]

I really don't think this should be an HST argument really, but the BC economy as a whole, but this is the problem with a long waiting period to remove the HST. They are stalling, and I don't like it. They are using the increased revenue to balance their books, and hope to get the house in order before writing that 1 billion check to the feds.
They could've dropped it the next day, yet it would've been chaos. 1.5 years is retarded, yet it wasn't going to happen overnight.

I think they should've dropped it in 3 months, then hit all the income brackets with tax increases. The money has to come from somewhere, and people need to learn that.

One little gem that I liked from the budget is getting out of the liquor distribution business. Well, the actual warehouse distribution of it. Just the warehouses. Still...its a start. Tell me, why the fuck our government sells and distributes liquor. Tell me why these guys get paid something ridiculous to sell me booze? Start with the warehouses, and then go for the stores. One less union to deal with for a start.

That's the kind of thinking we need more of. How can we get out of shit we don't need to be in?
There was a study in the news recently that showed private liquor stores where only 80% compliant in not serving minors, while government liquor stores were virtually 100%.

We live in the "no fun province" thus I fully expect liquor sales to stay publicly controlled - to our detriment. I have a buddy in Ontario that works for the LCBO (Ontario liquor sales are public with the exception of small wine only stores) and was paid $40K+ with benefits to work the cash, and great benefits. How retarded is that? and booze prices in Ontario reflect the difference where a 24 of beer is ~$35 vs ~$25 in Quebexico corner stores.

[Gridlock]

They could've dropped it the next day, yet it would've been chaos. 1.5 years is retarded, yet it wasn't going to happen overnight.

I think they should've dropped it in 3 months, then hit all the income brackets with tax increases. The money has to come from somewhere, and people need to learn that.

I get that it wasn't going to be the next day, but I think there is an HST inspired holding pattern to wait and see what is going to happen. It sucks. We can't afford to be in a holding pattern. At this point, I don't care about the HSt or no HST thing. I still care that it was thrown in without an ounce of public input. The public finally had its input, so just pick a reasonable date and run with it.


There was a study in the news recently that showed private liquor stores where only 80% compliant in not serving minors, while government liquor stores were virtually 100%.

We live in the "no fun province" thus I fully expect liquor sales to stay publicly controlled - to our detriment. I have a buddy in Ontario that works for the LCBO (Ontario liquor sales are public with the exception of small wine only stores) and was paid $40K+ with benefits to work the cash, and great benefits. How retarded is that? and booze prices in Ontario reflect the difference where a 24 of beer is ~$35 vs ~$25 in Quebexico corner stores.

I get that private is not going to be as good as public. I just want a small government that is not trying to run every little thing. I'd rather get rid of the whole thing, privatize the whole affair and hire more inspectors. At least I can say, the government should be in the business of regulatory inspections and administrations, NOT distribution.

I moved here from Nova Scotia in 1998, and I don't know at this point that standing among my boxes picking a province to go to, that I would choose BC again. I was kind of hoping that NS would get their shit together, and I could end my exile, but they voted in NDP so that's not going to happen...

[FerrariEnzo]

while having this tax credit is good to get new home buyers into a home.. but Canada wants to be careful, if they get people who cant afford it into a homes, we will end up becoming like the states... foreclosures...
JOBs need to pay more... which means employers have to charge more, which means more jobs will be closing to do being out of business..

[taylor192]

while having this tax credit is good to get new home buyers into a home.. but Canada wants to be careful, if they get people who cant afford it into a homes, we will end up becoming like the states... foreclosures...
JOBs need to pay more... which means employers have to charge more, which means more jobs will be closing to do being out of business..

We're already there. I listen to CFOX every morning and the stupid commercials "if you make $15/hr you can afford a house" are going to kill the market. If you make $15/hr, you shouldn't be buying as house - no offence to those that do. You have to stretch yourself pretty thin at $15/hr to afford a house, and likely most people making $15/hr will never make more in their life - there's a good reason they make $15/hr.

[MindBomber]

I get that private is not going to be as good as public. I just want a small government that is not trying to run every little thing. I'd rather get rid of the whole thing, privatize the whole affair and hire more inspectors. At least I can say, the government should be in the business of regulatory inspections and administrations, NOT distribution.
.

If private won't serve the population of British Columbia as well as public, then switching to an entirely private system is pretty ridiculous. The system works very well, and while the wages are a bit high at public stores, they have great employees in comparison to the minimum wage private stores.

Small government this and that, it's all totally irrelevant. What matters is effective and efficient government, and since by your admission the government would not be as effective at regulating liqour sales if the system were entirely private, a change is totally pointless.

The government can regulate anything and everything they want, as far as I'm concerned. Just as long as they do so in a cost effective manner that benefits the public.

We're already there. I listen to CFOX every morning and the stupid commercials "if you make $15/hr you can afford a house" are going to kill the market. If you make $15/hr, you shouldn't be buying as house - no offence to those that do. You have to stretch yourself pretty thin at $15/hr to afford a house, and likely most people making $15/hr will never make more in their life - there's a good reason they make $15/hr.

Those ads are dedicated towards properties selling for between $120-140k with relatively low mortgage rates and fees, from what I've seen. If you have the down payment to put up, you shouldn't be paying much if any more monthly than you would for rent. You do need a decent credit rating to qualify as well, which was a key factor in the collapse of the housing market in America.

I don't entirely disagree with you, Taylor, but I'm not quite as pessimistic.

[too_slow]

Why is it called the budget? Why not just call it what it is "This is how much of your tax dollars we're gonna waste mother f*ckers.. COME AT ME BRO..."

[taylor192]

Those ads are dedicated towards properties selling for between $120-140k with relatively low mortgage rates and fees, from what I've seen.
You must not listen to CFOX. The ad also includes "you can afford around $200K". $15/hr is ~$30K/yr, and $200K is ~7x earnings.

I have great credit and zero debt, so I can get a mortgage for ~8.5x earnings. That doesn't mean I should - yet I'm smart enough to make that decision cause I know if rates ever go up there's no way I could afford it - and cause I have good credit the bank doesn't care that I cannot afford it if rates go up.

Most people in Canada take 5yr mortgages, so our rates reset then just like the ARM and Alt-A mortgages in the US. My friends that renewed in 2006/7 were surprised when they renewed at 6+% vs the ~4% they were expecting.

Someone making $15/hr and listening to CFOX might not know all this like I do - and that's what contributed to the US collapse. People signed ARM and Alt-A mortgages without factoring in higher rates and got screwed.

If you have the down payment to put up, you shouldn't be paying much if any more monthly than you would for rent. You do need a decent credit rating to qualify as well, which was a key factor in the collapse of the housing market in America.
Mortgage on $200K will be ~ $900/mn + property taxes + condo fees + ... == ~$1300. In areas where condos are ~$200K, rents are much cheaper than $1300.

[MindBomber]

You must not listen to CFOX. The ad also includes "you can afford around $200K". $15/hr is ~$30K/yr, and $200K is ~7x earnings.

I have great credit and zero debt, so I can get a mortgage for ~8.5x earnings. That doesn't mean I should - yet I'm smart enough to make that decision cause I know if rates ever go up there's no way I could afford it - and cause I have good credit the bank doesn't care that I cannot afford it if rates go up.

Most people in Canada take 5yr mortgages, so our rates reset then just like the ARM and Alt-A mortgages in the US. My friends that renewed in 2006/7 were surprised when they renewed at 6+% vs the ~4% they were expecting.

Someone making $15/hr and listening to CFOX might not know all this like I do - and that's what contributed to the US collapse. People signed ARM and Alt-A mortgages without factoring in higher rates and got screwed.


Mortgage on $200K will be ~ $900/mn + property taxes + condo fees + ... == ~$1300. In areas where condos are ~$200K, rents are much cheaper than $1300.

Interesting, okay. Here's where I was coming from.

I routinely receive advertisements in the mail saying, "Do you make $15-18/hr, why are you renting?"

I rent, mainly because I don't think it's a great time to buy a new condo, but it caught my interest and I went to an open house. The building it was advertising is a block from where I rent, so it was worth the time to walk over and get more info and appease my curiosity.

The break down was something like this..

$155,000 for a 1 bed with a $500 mortgage for the first five years, requirement of 10% down, the interest rate was very low. Add $125 for condo fees, $50 for property taxes and you're in for $675/month.

I live in Abbotsford, so the average rental price for an older 1 bedroom would be $675-750, with a relatively new 1 bedroom at $800-850. Therefore it actually works out to be monthly savings for the first five years, and given that a persons income should increase over that time, they should be doing okay when the mortgage is renewed at a higher rate.

[GodZilla]

One little gem that I liked from the budget is getting out of the liquor distribution business. Well, the actual warehouse distribution of it. Just the warehouses. Still...its a start. Tell me, why the fuck our government sells and distributes liquor. Tell me why these guys get paid something ridiculous to sell me booze? Start with the warehouses, and then go for the stores. One less union to deal with for a start.

That's the kind of thinking we need more of. How can we get out of shit we don't need to be in?

Why do they sell and distribute liquor? I can give you 900 million reasons. They get paid something ridiculous? Provide a $ amount. All I hear on the news is all these false amounts of what they make per hour, and the public bites on it and believes it.

Sure privatize all the stores then see how the prices will rise, people think they will drop not likely.

[taylor192]

$155,000 for a 1 bed with a $500 mortgage for the first five years, requirement of 10% down, the interest rate was very low. Add $125 for condo fees, $50 for property taxes and you're in for $675/month.

I live in Abbotsford, so the average rental price for an older 1 bedroom would be $675-750, with a relatively new 1 bedroom at $800-850.
$500 for the mortgage is way too low. Most people making $15/hr will only have the minimum 5% down, then factor in the > 2% CMHC fee for leaving 5% down, and you're still mortgaging $150K. That should be $700/mn + condo fees + taxes (and taxes are not $50, they would be ~$100/mn at 0.7% 2011 rate). The condo fee may be set low to entice buyers, yet that just means the condo slush fund isn't being built up very fast so you better save for a surprise $5-10K bill. So I figure you're in for at least $950, probably more.

given that a persons income should increase over that time, they should be doing okay when the mortgage is renewed at a higher rate.
This is exactly the same crap they sold US home owners on. Look it up, its how they sold ARMs and Alt-As. If you lookup wages for the past decade, they are flat. Moreso if you lookup wages since 2008, they are down.

Even if income increased, we're talking about 2-3% inflationary increases a year, which over 5 years gives you a few $$ more, while my friends that renewed at 6+% learned that inflation increases cannot make up for big rate increases.

[iEatClams]

My thoughts:

I would like the HST to stay, but since people voted it out, I'ld say increase Personal income tax rates to compensate for it. Don't touch corporate income tax rates, I think they are fine the way they are in BC and dont need to be increased.

I say we should raise the property transfer taxes (not on first -time buyers), theres too many people that own 5+ houses for speculation purposes, this will prevent too many speculators from buying and flipping and help prevent a larger economic downturn if property prices start decreasing, cause lets face it, if there is a property bubble and we see more foreclosures, it will affect all of us. I would prefer a more stable real estate market.

[Death2Theft]

I'm for more transparancy before raising any taxes.

[MindBomber]

$500 for the mortgage is way too low. Most people making $15/hr will only have the minimum 5% down, then factor in the > 2% CMHC fee for leaving 5% down, and you're still mortgaging $150K.
That should be $700/mn + condo fees + taxes (and taxes are not $50, they would be ~$100/mn at 0.7% 2011 rate). The condo fee may be set low to entice buyers, yet that just means the condo slush fund isn't being built up very fast so you better save for a surprise $5-10K bill. So I figure you're in for at least $950, probably more.

Your totally right, Taylor... :whistle:

I won't make generalizations about the proportion of buyers capable of putting down 10%, although it's really not a massive sum of money. The monthly mortgage for those buyers who could was $450-500 month, that's what the developers affordability calculations are based on and for the purposes of this discussion nothing else is relevant.

The condo fee is low in part because the building is located in Abbotsford, it's pretty comparable with all other buildings in the area. Not to mention, it's a new building with a warranty, so there shouldn't be any major condo assessments in the length of term the buyers would likely own the property for.

Thanks for the $950 number, but not accurate and not relevant to the point of contention.


This is exactly the same crap they sold US home owners on. Look it up, its how they sold ARMs and Alt-As. If you lookup wages for the past decade, they are flat. Moreso if you lookup wages since 2008, they are down.

Even if income increased, we're talking about 2-3% inflationary increases a year, which over 5 years gives you a few $$ more, while my friends that renewed at 6+% learned that inflation increases cannot make up for big rate increases.

Wages for the past decade are reasonably flat when looking at the entire labour market, yes.

The primary target of the developer is young professionals however, whose wages generally maintain a steady increase before plateauing. I know my income has steadily increased, as has my girlfriend's, and most of my friends. Based on that, it's not unreasonable to factor in a wage increase over a five year term.

Alt-As are marketed to people who really shouldn't have a mortgage to begin with. ARMs aren't great, I see the basis of your argument, but they aren't terrible. They can be totally fine if the person is prepared for a mortgage rate increase at the renewal date, it's not like the increase is a surprise.

[Nightwalker]

I think Taylor192 is bang on, but they're also not lying about being able to buy for the price of renting. Though they exclude costs of home ownership. I moved from renting a 2 bedroom apartment to buying a 2 bedroom townhouse for about the same cost 3 years ago.

Just so you guys get your numbers right, here's how it breaks down for my actual mortgage for my townhouse. I purchased when I was making $23.75/hour but I also had a lot of debt at the time. Most banks wouldn't come close to my current interest rate either, I'm thankful to my mortgage broker. My own bank wouldn't loan to me without jumping through a lot of hoops and without a 6+% interest rate.

I regret buying so young though because I want to move now and this house is an anchor. It's also not appreciating at all.

Total loan amount: $161,687.62
Loan amount (after downpayment): $156,750
Interest rate: 3.79% fixed (5 years)
Payments (biweekly inc. property taxes): $374.56
Strata fee: $170/month
Insurance (required): $26/month

So ~$945.12 per month (a little more since I pay biweekly).

I was renting a 2 bedroom apartment for $950/month previously. It included garbage pickup and water though, which costs me ~$75/month in my new place.

When major repairs are done however, the owners foot part of the bill in a special levy (with the rest coming from the strata contingency reserve fund). So there are different costs that come up some years. Painting the buildings will cost me $897.04 this year.

Edt: At my current income, that's acceptable. But I like having money, so I rent out my spare room. If you're not debt free making over $20/hour, I think renting the spare room out would be necessary.

[taylor192]

I won't make generalizations about the proportion of buyers capable of putting down 10%, although it's really not a massive sum of money.
I won't make generalizations either. ~60% of Canadians have no savings, and of those that do 30% dip into their savings to make ends meet. That leaves ~30% of Canadians with savings to leave as a downpayment - I'll let you generalize how many of those 30% make $15/hr.

The condo fee is low in part because the building is located in Abbotsford, it's pretty comparable with all other buildings in the area. Not to mention, it's a new building with a warranty, so there shouldn't be any major condo assessments in the length of term the buyers would likely own the property for.
Then we get into another set of calculations. If you're only buying a condo for 5-10 years, in a flat market (which we're currently in) you'll barely pay down the mortgage more on a 30yr term than the fees you'll have to spend to buy/sell the place. All that effort to walk away with a few $Ks, when you'd save far more renting.

Thanks for the $950 number, but not accurate and not relevant to the point of contention.
Its accurate unless you prove otherwise. You cannot mortgage a $150K property for $500/mn without leaving a LOT down - which no-one making $15/hr has.

The primary target of the developer is young professionals however, whose wages generally maintain a steady increase before plateauing.
Young professionals don't make $15/hr. That's only $30K/yr, even a basic secretary makes more than that.

It is clearly aimed at people who work retail, like Safeway, who have little hope of promotion to deal with any rate increase.

[MindBomber]

I won't make generalizations either. ~60% of Canadians have no savings, and of those that do 30% dip into their savings to make ends meet. That leaves ~30% of Canadians with savings to leave as a downpayment - I'll let you generalize how many of those 30% make $15/hr.


You're missing my point.

You can't modify one portion of the developers affordability equation then criticize another. The developer bases the statement that it is affordable for a person making $15 dollars an hour if the person has a 10% down payment, if the person has only 5% down, then that would raise the mortgage payment and in turn annual income required.


Then we get into another set of calculations. If you're only buying a condo for 5-10 years, in a flat market (which we're currently in) you'll barely pay down the mortgage more on a 30yr term than the fees you'll have to spend to buy/sell the place. All that effort to walk away with a few $Ks, when you'd save far more renting.

The question of whether owning or renting is more beneficial depends on the specific market, and you'll get very different answers if you ask that question for Kitsilano and Abbotsford. In Kits you can rent a property for much less than owning a comparable one, and furthermore, the area isn't going to change much so it will only appreciate with the market as a whole. In Abbotsford there are very few rental properties available outside of those owned by the giant management corporations, who have pushed the rental rates to unnaturally high levels. Therefore you can own a property for the same cost or less than renting, which would allow you to walk away with a few $ks in savings over a 5-10 year term. Then consider that Abbotsford and Whalley, the wonderful areas where H.J. Property Investments (the $15 dollar developer) build in are improving steadily. That's especially true for Abbotsford; $160 million arena, $30 million airport expansion, $10 million tradex expansion, $170 million mall. Despite the market being flat overall, there is reasonable evidence to believe these markets specifically will appreciate at a rate higher than inflation. That all means an owner buying now would potentially see a moderate return over the relatively short term. Not a massive return since the economy isn't in great shape, but something for someone not interested in other forms of investing.


Its accurate unless you prove otherwise. You cannot mortgage a $150K property for $500/mn without leaving a LOT down - which no-one making $15/hr has.

The first five years were being offered at below 2% financing, otherwise no, it would not be possible.


Young professionals don't make $15/hr. That's only $30K/yr, even a basic secretary makes more than that.

It is clearly aimed at people who work retail, like Safeway, who have little hope of promotion to deal with any rate increase.

Apprentice tradespeople, LPNs and other workers who are at the lower levels of professional status make $15-20/hr and almost definitely will see significant promotions within five years. Some people would consider those people young professionals, others wouldn't, professional is a pretty loosely defined term in current usage.

[taylor192]

You're missing my point.

You can't modify one portion of the developers affordability equation then criticize another. The developer bases the statement that it is affordable for a person making $15 dollars an hour if the person has a 10% down payment, if the person has only 5% down, then that would raise the mortgage payment and in turn annual income required.
No I'm making a point, which you now clarify:
The first five years were being offered at below 2% financing, otherwise no, it would not be possible.
Which is very close to the ARMs sold to Americans at low enticing rates that eventually reset higher. You're only making me more pessimistic that we're now seeing the predatory lending by developers and brokers that happened in the US.

Then consider that Abbotsford and Whalley, the wonderful areas where H.J. Property Investments (the $15 dollar developer) build in are improving steadily. That's especially true for Abbotsford; $160 million arena, $30 million airport expansion, $10 million tradex expansion, $170 million mall. Despite the market being flat overall, there is reasonable evidence to believe these markets specifically will appreciate at a rate higher than inflation. That all means an owner buying now would potentially see a moderate return over the relatively short term. Not a massive return since the economy isn't in great shape, but something for someone not interested in other forms of investing.
Property prices are falling from the outside in. The interior is in awful shape, and the burbs have been flat for awhile while Vancouver and Richmond still saw price increases until recently.

If anything, these areas are ripe for big drops if the market starts to falter. They are not nice areas, and once people stop believing "house prices only go up" they'll see deals in nicer areas and less reason to take risk on "up and coming" areas.

You can look at the US for examples of this, and now China. Your optimism is misplaced.

Apprentice tradespeople, LPNs and other workers who are at the lower levels of professional status make $15-20/hr and almost definitely will see significant promotions within five years. Some people would consider those people young professionals, others wouldn't, professional is a pretty loosely defined term in current usage.
They are also more likely to be out of work if housing takes a downturn, like now where construction work has virtually dried up in the interior. 60% of them won't have a rainy day account to pay their mortgages.

[MindBomber]

No I'm making a point, which you now clarify:

Which is very close to the ARMs sold to Americans at low enticing rates that eventually reset higher. You're only making me more pessimistic that we're now seeing the predatory lending by developers and brokers that happened in the US.


I'm not overly pessimistic that it's intended as predatory lending, because unlike Alt-A style mortgages that were sold to Americans who clearly could not manage money, a well informed buyer would understand that in five years the mortgage will increase and be prepared for it.


Property prices are falling from the outside in. The interior is in awful shape, and the burbs have been flat for awhile while Vancouver and Richmond still saw price increases until recently.

If anything, these areas are ripe for big drops if the market starts to falter. They are not nice areas, and once people stop believing "house prices only go up" they'll see deals in nicer areas and less reason to take risk on "up and coming" areas.

You can look at the US for examples of this, and now China. Your optimism is misplaced.

I don't agree with your assessment.

A very small percentage of people buy in the Fraser Valley, because they can't afford what you would consider a nice area. They buy in the Valley, because they want to live a certain lifestyle, which is supported by the million dollar housing developments in East Abbotsford and North Langley. The difference in value between Langley and Abbotsford, despite being only fifteen minutes apart is significant. With Abbotsford's amenities improving it's logical to reason that it would begin to catch up with Langley prices.


They are also more likely to be out of work if housing takes a downturn, like now where construction work has virtually dried up in the interior. 60% of them won't have a rainy day account to pay their mortgages.

Okay, the construction industry should be bracing for a downturn.

I referenced apprentices, who are not exclusively in the construction industry, and health care workers, an industry that's unlikely to see a downturn for decades, as examples of young professionals at the lower end of the pay scale. You picked out one very specific industry among that group of workers I cited and acted as if it is a fatal flaw to my argument, which it is not, because my argument was more diverse than that.

[taylor192]

I don't agree with your assessment.
You can disagree all you want, the numbers don't lie and the examples elsewhere tell the same story. Either learn from history, or repeat it.

Okay, the construction industry should be bracing for a downturn.

I referenced apprentices, who are not exclusively in the construction industry, and health care workers, an industry that's unlikely to see a downturn for decades, as examples of young professionals at the lower end of the pay scale. You picked out one very specific industry among that group of workers I cited and acted as if it is a fatal flaw to my argument, which it is not, because my argument was more diverse than that.
I picked the first industry of a series of dominos. It is a fatal flaw cause the BC economy has been heavily reliant on construction and retail spending, and a lot of BC residents are migrants. You can already see people leaving the interior for "home" since BC was never "home", just a destination for awhile. You can look at BC history and see that when hard times hit, people leave.

You can continue to say "it is different here" yet history has proved otherwise. The tide has turned in BC, now we're waiting to see where its headed. Flat for a decade, or down - all these "incentives" are not going to spur it back up.

[Gridlock]

Don't tell me that...I want so desperately to go and renovate other people's homes again. If I build one more version of the same apartment again, I'm gonna ralph.

I'm up to 70 gallons of the same color.

[Gridlock]

You can disagree all you want, the numbers don't lie and the examples elsewhere tell the same story. Either learn from history, or repeat it.


I picked the first industry of a series of dominos. It is a fatal flaw cause the BC economy has been heavily reliant on construction and retail spending, and a lot of BC residents are migrants. You can already see people leaving the interior for "home" since BC was never "home", just a destination for awhile. You can look at BC history and see that when hard times hit, people leave.

You can continue to say "it is different here" yet history has proved otherwise. The tide has turned in BC, now we're waiting to see where its headed. Flat for a decade, or down - all these "incentives" are not going to spur it back up.

I agree. Even the last incentive for construction from the feds really didn't do a whole lot. No one is willing to do what needs to be done to make it cash in hand today for customers.

No sales tax.

You get money...today. No credits or bullshit.

But even if you do that, you cannibalize future work. Some people will say, let's do the floors. Great. Even if they weren't realistically thinking of doing it. Most would be people choosing to go now, instead of later. Or, we were going to do it anyway, now we do it cheaper. It's the same with a tax credit.

Ultimately, for construction, you really need people moving. At least in my experience. I would have clients living in the home about 1 out of every 6 to 8 places. The rest were all condos that they bought and wanted rehabbed before occupation.

That's not really a statistic you can use :) I specialize in interior work and for some reason, I ended up with apartments and condos as my base.

[taylor192]

Don't tell me that...I want so desperately to go and renovate other people's homes again. If I build one more version of the same apartment again, I'm gonna ralph.

I'm up to 70 gallons of the same color.

My brother is a general contractor in Montreal and he's noticed work has slowed there too. Tax breaks only bring work forward, once the home reno tax credit disappeared, the calls slowed down.

Thus why I am pessimistic about these tax credits in this budget. We've never recovered from the slump, and while this may bring some business forward, it doesn't establish anything to replace that once the stimulus ends.

[taylor192]

First-time buyer bonus will make (http://www.vancouversun.com/business/First+time+buyer+bonus+will+make+bigger+difference +suburbs/6194441/story.html)

Do I have it wrong? or does the author of this article?

Its a $10K tax credit, which means it raises the lower threshold for not paying provincial income tax - not federal income tax. The BC income tax rate is 5.06% for the first $37K of income, with a $11.3K personal amount (aka untaxable).

This means you get.... rum roll please.... a refund of $506.

[TouringTeg]

First-time buyer bonus will make (http://www.vancouversun.com/business/First+time+buyer+bonus+will+make+bigger+difference +suburbs/6194441/story.html)

Do I have it wrong? or does the author of this article?

Its a $10K tax credit, which means it raises the lower threshold for not paying provincial income tax - not federal income tax. The BC income tax rate is 5.06% for the first $37K of income, with a $11.3K personal amount (aka untaxable).

This means you get.... rum roll please.... a refund of $506.


This is exactly what I have been trying to figure out. No one hands you 10k. It's just a tax credit which means it reduces the amount of income tax you will pay.

[taylor192]

This is exactly what I have been trying to figure out. No one hands you 10k. It's just a tax credit which means it reduces the amount of income tax you will pay.

I wrote the author of the article to correct it, yet fear the damage is already done. Going to be lots of disappointed people filing their 2012 taxes.

[MindBomber]

You can disagree all you want, the numbers don't lie and the examples elsewhere tell the same story. Either learn from history, or repeat it.

The arguments you make are incredibly weak, making such bold statements you need to provide much more support for them to have any validity.

Low interest rates in the initial term is not enough to confirm predatory lending, period. If that were the case, every lender who offered a 2.25% fixed rate mortgage in 2009 was engaging in predatory lending. The buyers aren't being offered 100% financing or alt-a and subprime mortgages, essential to the down falls in the examples you mention.


I picked the first industry of a series of dominos. It is a fatal flaw cause the BC economy has been heavily reliant on construction and retail spending, and a lot of BC residents are migrants. You can already see people leaving the interior for "home" since BC was never "home", just a destination for awhile. You can look at BC history and see that when hard times hit, people leave.

You can continue to say "it is different here" yet history has proved otherwise. The tide has turned in BC, now we're waiting to see where its headed. Flat for a decade, or down - all these "incentives" are not going to spur it back up.

Again, your argument is completely illogical and totally unclear.

I have never seen a statistic that shows a significant emigration from Canada or specifically British Columbia and you failed to provide one, therefore your argument is conjecture and not worth addressing further.

Regarding a minor downturn in the BC economy as a direct result of a slow construction industry, that's plausible. An adjustment in value of over inflated markets would result, specifically in areas like Vancouver and Richmond where prices are much higher than is logical. When a market improves however, the value goes up. Abbotsford and areas of Surrey have steadily improved, therefore the values in this regions will go up.

[MindBomber]

My brother is a general contractor in Montreal and he's noticed work has slowed there too. Tax breaks only bring work forward, once the home reno tax credit disappeared, the calls slowed down.

Thus why I am pessimistic about these tax credits in this budget. We've never recovered from the slump, and while this may bring some business forward, it doesn't establish anything to replace that once the stimulus ends.

Bringing work forward is precisely what tax credits do, they're ineffective.

I never been told by a customer, I'm doing this job because of the tax breaks. The closest I've ever heard to that is, the tax credits are a nice addition to the ecoenergy grants. The ecoenergy credit program should expand, because it continues to be extremely effective and creates a good amount of business for contractors who take advantage of it.

[taylor192]

Low interest rates in the initial term is not enough to confirm predatory lending, period. If that were the case, every lender who offered a 2.25% fixed rate mortgage in 2009 was engaging in predatory lending. The buyers aren't being offered 100% financing or alt-a and subprime mortgages, essential to the down falls in the examples you mention.

Fixed rates have never been that low. Variable rates can be, yet you have to qualify at a much higher rate - which most making $15/hr buying $200K properties wouldn't be approved for.

In the case you mention, the developer is subsidizing loans, which might as well be ARMs or Alt-As since they will reset higher. The only difference is semantics, not economics.

The article I linked confirms what I have already said - most buyers leave 5% down and struggle to save for a downpayment. 5% down incurs a 2.75% CMHC fee which most roll into their mortgage, thus you are mortgaging ~98% of the house value - excuse me if I round up to 100%.

I have never seen a statistic that shows a significant emigration from Canada or specifically British Columbia and you failed to provide one, therefore your argument is conjecture and not worth addressing further.
That's cause you've never looked. They are out there, I've linked them in many threads on similar topics. Just cause you're ignorant, doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Regarding a minor downturn in the BC economy as a direct result of a slow construction industry, that's plausible. An adjustment in value of over inflated markets would result, specifically in areas like Vancouver and Richmond where prices are much higher than is logical. When a market improves however, the value goes up. Abbotsford and areas of Surrey have steadily improved, therefore the values in this regions will go up.
When the US housing bubble popped it took down areas that were not even overpriced. Why? Cause prices were based on emotion, not fundamentals.

Fundamentally Abbotsford is overpriced for what it offers compared to similar population centres in the rest of Canada. The only reason it is priced as high as it is is cause it rides the BC wave of emotional house buying that pushed prices higher.

If Vancouver collapses, its taking the whole province with it in some way - no-one will be immune. We're already seeing the interior and the island down, if Vancouver goes down these areas will tank.

[MindBomber]

Fixed rates have never been that low. Variable rates can be, yet you have to qualify at a much higher rate - which most making $15/hr buying $200K properties wouldn't be approved for.

In the case you mention, the developer is subsidizing loans, which might as well be ARMs or Alt-As since they will reset higher. The only difference is semantics, not economics.

The article I linked confirms what I have already said - most buyers leave 5% down and struggle to save for a downpayment. 5% down incurs a 2.75% CMHC fee which most roll into their mortgage, thus you are mortgaging ~98% of the house value - excuse me if I round up to 100%.


The only properties I have seen offered by the $15 developer are in the $150-160k range, not $200k.

As I have repeatedly stated, your 5% down figure is completely irrelevant, because it differs from the figures used to establish $15 as affordable.


That's cause you've never looked. They are out there, I've linked them in many threads on similar topics. Just cause you're ignorant, doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Typical Taylor, when you can't defend your position you turn to childish insults. As the presenter of the argument it is your job to provide support for it, not mine.


When the US housing bubble popped it took down areas that were not even overpriced. Why? Cause prices were based on emotion, not fundamentals.

Fundamentally Abbotsford is overpriced for what it offers compared to similar population centres in the rest of Canada. The only reason it is priced as high as it is is cause it rides the BC wave of emotional house buying that pushed prices higher.

If Vancouver collapses, its taking the whole province with it in some way - no-one will be immune. We're already seeing the interior and the island down, if Vancouver goes down these areas will tank.

That's all your opinion, which you're completely entitled to.

You'll need to provide evidence that Abbotsford is overpriced compared to comparable population centers if you want that statement to be in the least bit persuasive. I've already stated, as a result of investment by both the city and business Abbotsford has fundamentally changed. As a result, value will increase. The entire British Columbia housing market may decline, but the changes to Abbotsford will mitigate the effect on it specifically.

[GodZilla]

People make me laugh on the radio when they talk about liquor distribution.
Do they not realize booze prices will go up? The government can regulate liquor prices private and do what they want. They talk about this company from Alberta coming and buying it. So let me get this right its ok to put those workers out of work but its ok to make the rich richer and give them more money, more then they will ever need? Oh dont get me wrong the privates will provide jobs ....... for $10 an hour. Yah thats a fair wage.
People need to think long term and not just for the short term.

[Gridlock]

People make me laugh on the radio when they talk about liquor distribution.
Do they not realize booze prices will go up? The government can regulate liquor prices private and do what they want. They talk about this company from Alberta coming and buying it. So let me get this right its ok to put those workers out of work but its ok to make the rich richer and give them more money, more then they will ever need? Oh dont get me wrong the privates will provide jobs ....... for $10 an hour. Yah thats a fair wage.
People need to think long term and not just for the short term.

We can't do it all. I don't want government positions taken up with handling the distribution of liquor. I would like government bureaucrats working on economic issues and things that move the province forward.

People are going to lose their jobs. Ok. Shit! People lose their jobs. It happens. Cut them a check, and move on. The private companies will pay people like $10/to work cash. Then I guess that's what people are worth in a position that includes the following dialogue:

Hi! Planning to get wasted tonight? Can I see your ID? Beep beep beep. Have a good night!

Yes, I know there is more responsibility to it than my dramatically over-simplified scenario, but my point is, do I need to pay a guy 40k a year to do it?

Here's just one example calling for the same thing.

To Whom It May Concern At The BC Liquor Distribution Branch… : Scout Magazine (http://scoutmagazine.ca/2010/11/10/to-whom-it-may-concern-at-the-bc-liquor-distribution-branch/)

I don't need the government to decide how, what and why I consume alcohol, and discourage me from doing so with sky high pricing. I'm not an alcoholic, and I don't intend to become one. I don't drink and drive and I don't intend to start. Kill it.

[Gridlock]

One more thing, and I haven't found an answer online. Is BCLiquor self-sustaining financially, or do we top up?

[MindBomber]

One more thing, and I haven't found an answer online. Is BCLiquor self-sustaining financially, or do we top up?

Massively profitable, approximately $900 million per year, I believe.

I am very much a socialist, so I like seeing that income going directly to the government. Not only does it help to fund education, healthcare and et cetera, but it acts as taxes in a sense. Alcohol is the most prolific drug in existence, there is a significant social cost resulting from it's availability, LBD profits displace that cost.

Reforming the system, I support.
Auctioning off the system and switching to an Alberta style privatized system, I do not support.

One note: While average wages at BC liquor stores remain high due to the union, the starting wages have dropped significantly.

Grid, I think you'll love this article, it's very well written and in strong favor of your position.
B.C.'s liquor rules still sting | Vancouver, Canada | Straight.com (http://www.straight.com/article-393232/vancouver/ye-olde-liquor-rules-still-sting?page=0%2C0)

[jasonturbo]

Mindbomber, seems me and you don't agree on anything, Taylor192 has you on the housing arguement, if I need to prove you wrong I will gladly do it, providing real world examples. (Listings on MLS VS identical rental properties).

Also, FYI, 5/30 mortgage is dead, expect an anouncement before the end of the month where Mr. Flaherty outlines that the new minimum is 10% down and a maximum 25 year amoritization. Also consider that even though the BOC has not increase its lending rate, mortgage rates have increased in the last few weeks, CMHC is also nearly maxed out at it's 600 bilion dollar cap...

Oh and on the budget... well... typical BC, can't balance a budget, not industry friendly (See our discussion on the Northern Gateway Pipeline...)

[MindBomber]

Mindbomber, seems me and you don't agree on anything, Taylor192 has you on the housing arguement, if I need to prove you wrong I will gladly do it, providing real world examples. (Listings on MLS VS identical rental properties).

Also, FYI, 5/30 mortgage is dead, expect an anouncement before the end of the month where Mr. Flaherty outlines that the new minimum is 10% down and a maximum 25 year amoritization. Also consider that even though the BOC has not increase its lending rate, mortgage rates have increased in the last few weeks, CMHC is also nearly maxed out at it's 600 bilion dollar cap...

Oh and on the budget... well... typical BC, can't balance a budget, not industry friendly (See our discussion on the Northern Gateway Pipeline...)

I don't think our opinions were actually that far apart in the pipeline discussion and we agreed on some points, quite shocking considering our biases. I digress though.

I will in no way disagree, it's possible to rent an apartment for significantly less than owning in certain markets. Vancouver and Richmond for example are not areas where it is beneficial to own property. That is not the case for areas further east of Vancouver, where emotional buying, as Taylor refers to it, has not been as prevalent.

Rental:
$1100 per month
2 bedroom - 2 bathroom
underground parking
SS appliances/nice kitchen
http://abbotsford.en.craigslist.ca/apa/2863224367.html

MLS listing:
$153,888 - rounding down to $150,000
2 bedroom - 2 bathroom
underground parking
facing quiet side of building
could use minor updating
REALTOR.ca -Property Details F1123792 (http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=11459922&PidKey=1919695566)

Overall, I would consider these two units comparable. The rental unit is a little more per month, but also is slightly nicer.

Cost of renting:
Rent- $1100/month
Total - $1100/month

Cost of ownership:
Mortgage- $738/month (10% down, 25 year amortization, 5% rate)
Condo fees - $150/month (Estimate based on Abbotsford averages)
Property Taxes - $100/month
Insurance - $25/month
Total - $1013/month

$77/month difference between owning and renting.

Also, see Nightwalker's example.

Total loan amount: $161,687.62
Loan amount (after downpayment): $156,750
Interest rate: 3.79% fixed (5 years)
Payments (biweekly inc. property taxes): $374.56
Strata fee: $170/month
Insurance (required): $26/month

So ~$945.12 per month (a little more since I pay biweekly).

I was renting a 2 bedroom apartment for $950/month previously. It included garbage pickup and water though, which costs me ~$75/month in my new place.

[taylor192]

Typical Taylor, when you can't defend your position you turn to childish insults. As the presenter of the argument it is your job to provide support for it, not mine.
So if I post some links I get to call you an ignorant idiot? Done:

Lifetime interprovincial migration in Canada: looking beyond short-run fluctuations. | HighBeam Business: Arrive Prepared (http://business.highbeam.com/411060/article-1G1-119072952/lifetime-interprovincial-migration-canada-looking-beyond)

By contrast, in 1996-2001, when the employment growth rate of British Columbia (7.6 percent) was substantially lower than that of Ontario (12.3 percent), British Columbia experienced a net loss of interprovincial migrants in four consecutive years (1998-2001) totalling 52,000 migrants

You'll need to provide evidence that Abbotsford is overpriced compared to comparable population centers if you want that statement to be in the least bit persuasive.
As above, if I do, do I get to call you an ignorant idiot and completely discredit all your posts? Done:

Kingston, ON is very similar to Abbotsford, BC in siize and ammenties.
Kingston average single detached house price: $272K (2012)
Abbotsford average single detached house price: $393K (2012)

You'll learn one day I don't make stuff up, I have facts and figures to back up everything I post.

[taylor192]

The only properties I have seen offered by the $15 developer are in the $150-160k range, not $200k.

I think this explains why we're on different pages. This is the ad I referenced on CFOX:

http://www.angelacalla.ca/blog_post?id=6506&title=5-places-you-can-live-for-$26-a-day

If you make $15 dollars and hour full time, you can own a home in these 5 hot spots

1. Coquitlam

2. Port Coquitlam

3. Surrey (has enough jobs for the housing avaliable)

4. Langley

5. Delta

You can purchase up to a 2 bedroom apartment in these areas and there are approximatly 350 homes avaliable in this category. With the monthly cost including taxes and maintenence fees of these examples of approx $1100 a month, that's lower than the average rent in some places. Although this won't be an option for all, some people will be pleasantly surprised these deals really do exist.

I haven't heard anything about Abbotsford mentioned in these radio ads, yet I do distinctly remember $200K figure (which is missing from her blog - arg). Thus why we're not on the same page - the areas listed will have properties closer to $200K, rather than the $150K you reference in Abbbotsford.

[Death2Theft]

I dont drink or understand any of the pricing behind it aside from people bring booze back from AB because it's so much cheaper than BC due to the gov regulation here. So why do you think liquor prices will go up compared to other provinces if we get rid of the regulation?
People make me laugh on the radio when they talk about liquor distribution.
Do they not realize booze prices will go up? The government can regulate liquor prices private and do what they want. They talk about this company from Alberta coming and buying it. So let me get this right its ok to put those workers out of work but its ok to make the rich richer and give them more money, more then they will ever need? Oh dont get me wrong the privates will provide jobs ....... for $10 an hour. Yah thats a fair wage.
People need to think long term and not just for the short term.

[MindBomber]

So if I post some links I get to call you an ignorant idiot? Done:

Lifetime interprovincial migration in Canada: looking beyond short-run fluctuations. | HighBeam Business: Arrive Prepared (http://business.highbeam.com/411060/article-1G1-119072952/lifetime-interprovincial-migration-canada-looking-beyond)


I'd rather not be called an ignorant idiot at all, it's unnecessary in a discussion between two intelligent adults.

I'm not that stubborn, if the evidence is compelling enough I will admit you're right, unlike most people.


As above, if I do, do I get to call you an ignorant idiot and completely discredit all your posts? Done:

Kingston, ON is very similar to Abbotsford, BC in siize and ammenties.
Kingston average single detached house price: $272K (2012)
Abbotsford average single detached house price: $393K (2012)

You'll learn one day I don't make stuff up, I have facts and figures to back up everything I post.

I've been to Kingston quite a few times and actually own property there (inherited), I think Abbotsford is a significantly more attractive place to live. Kingston is also much further from Toronto than Abbotsford is from Vancouver. Is the difference in the cities enough to justify a difference in housing values of 30%, that's a definite no.

I'm not quite convinced enough to say, you're right though Taylor.

Ontario and British Columbia are such a significant distance apart, I understand the basis behind a fundamental comparison of cities, but comparing two cities from such different areas doesn't seem quite right in my mind. There are so many mitigating factors not taken into consideration in that comparison, which is why I compared Abbotsford to Langley, but I also understand the issues with comparing two cities so close together.

I'm going to research factors that contribute to housing prices more in depth, will edit later.

I think this explains why we're on different pages. This is the ad I referenced on CFOX:

http://www.angelacalla.ca/blog_post?id=6506&title=5-places-you-can-live-for-$26-a-day

I haven't heard anything about Abbotsford mentioned in these radio ads, yet I do distinctly remember $200K figure (which is missing from her blog - arg). Thus why we're not on the same page - the areas listed will have properties closer to $200K, rather than the $150K you reference in Abbbotsford.

That's pretty outrageous, a person who is earning $15 an hour cannot afford $1100 a month. After taxes, housing would eat up over 50% of the buyers income. Maybe a person with that income could just squeak by with housing costs that high if they don't own a vehicle, but they'd be house poor as fuck,

I agree with you, that chick is promoting predatory lending.

[GodZilla]

Massively profitable, approximately $900 million per year, I believe.

I am very much a socialist, so I like seeing that income going directly to the government. Not only does it help to fund education, healthcare and et cetera, but it acts as taxes in a sense. Alcohol is the most prolific drug in existence, there is a significant social cost resulting from it's availability, LBD profits displace that cost.

Reforming the system, I support.
Auctioning off the system and switching to an Alberta style privatized system, I do not support.

One note: While average wages at BC liquor stores remain high due to the union, the starting wages have dropped significantly.

Grid, I think you'll love this article, it's very well written and in strong favor of your position.
B.C.'s liquor rules still sting | Vancouver, Canada | Straight.com (http://www.straight.com/article-393232/vancouver/ye-olde-liquor-rules-still-sting?page=0%2C0)

890 million in 2011 and projected 906 million in 2012 in net profit. So tell me where is this 900+ million going to come from now? The figures for expenses and profit are public and free for anyone to see. I believe its on there website.
You are correct in saying " While average wages at BC liquor stores remain high due to the union, the starting wages have dropped significantly.
". 10 years ago starting wage was around $21 per hour now its starting wage is between $13.50 and 14.50.


As for " So why do you think liquor prices will go up compared to other provinces if we get rid of the regulation? " Each type of establishment is given a certain discount ie. restaurant, private liquor store, wine store, pub all of them are different. So if it is privatized then the wine store wont receive 30% discount they may only get 10% and charged more for delivery and have more wine shops opening up to compete against. Which means there profit shrinks so to maintain there profit they raise the prices in there store and so will everyone else.

I urge people to look beyond they grump at the cash register at the store and look at the big picture and all the areas and people this will effect. Its not as simple and buying booze at the store from a gov worker to a private one. OH and that $900+ million profit from the government distributed booze that is gone where will that come from again?

[Gridlock]

890 million in 2011 and projected 906 million in 2012 in net profit. So tell me where is this 900+ million going to come from now? The figures for expenses and profit are public and free for anyone to see. I believe its on there website.
You are correct in saying " While average wages at BC liquor stores remain high due to the union, the starting wages have dropped significantly.
". 10 years ago starting wage was around $21 per hour now its starting wage is between $13.50 and 14.50.


As for " So why do you think liquor prices will go up compared to other provinces if we get rid of the regulation? " Each type of establishment is given a certain discount ie. restaurant, private liquor store, wine store, pub all of them are different. So if it is privatized then the wine store wont receive 30% discount they may only get 10% and charged more for delivery and have more wine shops opening up to compete against. Which means there profit shrinks so to maintain there profit they raise the prices in there store and so will everyone else.

I urge people to look beyond they grump at the cash register at the store and look at the big picture and all the areas and people this will effect. Its not as simple and buying booze at the store from a gov worker to a private one. OH and that $900+ million profit from the government distributed booze that is gone where will that come from again?

No one gets discounts. Private liquor stores get a 16% discount on their inventory and thats it. Restaurants pay retail.

[taylor192]

I'd rather not be called an ignorant idiot at all, it's unnecessary in a discussion between two intelligent adults.

I'm not that stubborn, if the evidence is compelling enough I will admit you're right, unlike most people.

I'd rather not either, just I hate having my facts questioned when most know I research topics to death. Just cause I don't always include a link doesn't mean you can fluff it off :smug:

I agree with you, that chick is promoting predatory lending.
Cool.

I looked a little more into Abbotsford using PadMapper and MLS. It seems there is a huge price different between the centre and the edges. Towards the centre 2bd condos go for $200K, yet rents seem to get cheaper for condos - while on the edges there's lots of newer condos for $150K yet almost none to rent.

Weird.

[taylor192]

OH and that $900+ million profit from the government distributed booze that is gone where will that come from again?
This is one time I will say: who cares. The government should not be taxing my booze. The health/social issues that booze cause don't justify the taxation - this is just profit for government to misspend.

I've come to live with:
- BC wines are cheap
- hard liquor is only slightly more expensive than other provinces

I cannot live with:
- beer a LOT more

My favourite beer is Blue (I'm from Ontario, screw you haters) and it is $30 for a "case" (24) in ON. Here it is nearly impossible to find a "case" (24), so instead I have to buy a "flat" (2x12 or 4x6) which has no discount, it is just the price of 2 12s or 4 6s for ~$40.

That's 1/3 more expensive - for Blue which is a cheap beer! Buy any good beer and the difference is even more retarded.

[UFO]

890 million in 2011 and projected 906 million in 2012 in net profit. So tell me where is this 900+ million going to come from now? The figures for expenses and profit are public and free for anyone to see. I believe its on there website.

I think they are just talking about getting rid of only the distribution part of alcohol. It can still be strongly taxed (like cigs) and regulated so the profits dont go from 900M to 0. There will still be profits coming to the gov, they just have to split that with the distributor who would have bought the rights to distributing from the gov. So in essence the gov will still get a net profit without spending anything on payroll and overhead costs for distribution and warehousing.

I could be completely wrong, just based on what I've seen and heard on the news recently.

[hirevtuner]

u sir are correct, I work at the LDB liquor warehouse and getting mixed messages but overall we are going to be out of a job sometime really soon, so it is because Kristy Clark's dismantling of public sector jobs so sad

[goo3]

I noticed some talk about housing. The Bank of Canada released a pretty good report, if you're interested.

Bank of Canada Review - Winter 2011-2012 - Bank of Canada (http://www.bankofcanada.ca/2012/02/publications/periodicals/boc-review/boc-review-winter-2011-2012/)


Medium-Term Fluctuations in Canadian House Prices

This article has argued that income and population are important determin-
ants of Canadian house prices over the longer term and can help explain
much of the increase in house prices over the past decade. Other factors
are at work, however. Research at the Bank of Canada and elsewhere indi-
cates that a combination of declining long-term effective mortgage rates,
expectations of rising future house prices and changes in the liquidity of the
housing market have also contributed to the gains in house prices in the
past decade. Over history, these other factors are associated with the
medium-run tendency of house prices to rise faster than their long-run trend
for a number of years and then subsequently adjust back to trend.

The Bank of Canada conducts ongoing research and analysis to better
understand the movement and determinants of house prices. Future
research should seek to develop models that better incorporate the dual
nature of housing as both a durable consumption good and an asset, par-
ticularly the links between credit market conditions, interest rates, leverage
and housing demand.30 It would also be worthwhile to explore how expecta-
tions of house prices are formed. Finally, to enhance the research, more
comprehensive data are needed on house prices, construction costs, land
values, credit conditions and house-price expectations.

[GodZilla]

I could be completely wrong, just based on what I've seen and heard on the news recently.Thats right what is in the news is not the full story.
Last time when they were going to do this 8-10 years ago the public went nuts and they changed there mind. Now not as many but thats because only part of the story is being told. I just wish people would be more considerate of the people that have a chance at losing there job. No matter who who are I always feel bad for the employees and there families.

[GodZilla]

u sir are correct, I work at the LDB liquor warehouse and getting mixed messages but overall we are going to be out of a job sometime really soon, so it is because Kristy Clark's dismantling of public sector jobs so sadFT RPT or AUX?

[Gridlock]

Thats right what is in the news is not the full story.
Last time when they were going to do this 8-10 years ago the public went nuts and they changed there mind. Now not as many but thats because only part of the story is being told. I just wish people would be more considerate of the people that have a chance at losing there job. No matter who who are I always feel bad for the employees and there families.

I feel bad for people losing their jobs, but I'm not afraid of the tough decisions that need to be made. If the warehouse distribution has been targeted, its either: losing money under its current system, not meeting the needs of the current system(ie, switch to decentralized distribution in regional centers) or has been targeted as phase 1 of the dismantling of the current system.

[Death2Theft]

All I've heard about are ppl from california coming up and shocked to see restaurants charging 4x more for a bottle of wine than in cali.

[GodZilla]

I also forgot to mention how odd it is that Adrian Dix and Jim Sinclair are no where to be found. Usually Adrian is the first to criticize the opposition and and Sinclair when it involved a union. Hmmm where are they why no comment? I think there silence speaks volumes.

[taylor192]

u sir are correct, I work at the LDB liquor warehouse and getting mixed messages but overall we are going to be out of a job sometime really soon, so it is because Kristy Clark's dismantling of public sector jobs so sad
If the public sector didn't demand ridiculous salaries and benefits they would be competitive and keeping their jobs. It is not sad what is happening, it is sad tax payers have been milked for years to benefit the few.

[Vansterdam]

^ with that being said all this could just be a scare tactic for the upcoming union/contract negotiations

i heard they were talking about privatizing for the last 11+ years.

[UFO]

Thats right what is in the news is not the full story.
Last time when they were going to do this 8-10 years ago the public went nuts and they changed there mind. Now not as many but thats because only part of the story is being told. I just wish people would be more considerate of the people that have a chance at losing there job. No matter who who are I always feel bad for the employees and there families.

So what is the other part of the story?

Sorry to hear you may be losing your job, but such is life. Jobs are lost, you look for similar work in the same field if it is there, or if its not you retrain and look for work in a different field. To me though, that does not count as the other part of the story.

IMO the gov has no business warehousing and distributing alcohol when they can still regulate, tax, and collect through a third party distributor. The gov has more pressing matters to attend to than this

[conflagrare]

"The budget forecasts a deficit of $968 million this year and a surplus of $154 million in 2013-2014.

The deficit for the budget that wraps up the current 2011-2012 fiscal year on March 31 is forecast to hit $2.5 billion, better than the $3.1 billion deficit Falcon projected last fall."

And the BC Teachers federation are asking for a friggin' raise.

[Gridlock]

"The budget forecasts a deficit of $968 million this year and a surplus of $154 million in 2013-2014.

The deficit for the budget that wraps up the current 2011-2012 fiscal year on March 31 is forecast to hit $2.5 billion, better than the $3.1 billion deficit Falcon projected last fall."

And the BC Teachers federation are asking for a friggin' raise.

Yeah, I think they are out to lunch this go round, BUT it seems to me that they are constantly being asked to make sacrifices in terms of their contract because of some reason or another. At what point do you stop and say, no more?

I'm no union guy, but I do support them in terms of public service. I think its really the only way when your employer is also the rule maker. In this case, it doesn't matter because the employer will change the rules to push it through.

[MindBomber]

"The budget forecasts a deficit of $968 million this year and a surplus of $154 million in 2013-2014.

The deficit for the budget that wraps up the current 2011-2012 fiscal year on March 31 is forecast to hit $2.5 billion, better than the $3.1 billion deficit Falcon projected last fall."

And the BC Teachers federation are asking for a friggin' raise.

$968 million shortfall..

Sell off a $900 million dollar source of revenue..

[Gridlock]

$968 million shortfall..

Sell off a $900 million dollar source of revenue..

Nope.

Just warehousing. If anything, it should increase the $900 million revenue. Not that it should, as I think our booze is too much.

However, this is the government, so when the private sector makes a change, chances are, they will make more money. With the gov, it will cost more ;)

[Tapioca]

Yeah, I think they are out to lunch this go round, BUT it seems to me that they are constantly being asked to make sacrifices in terms of their contract because of some reason or another. At what point do you stop and say, no more?

I'm no union guy, but I do support them in terms of public service. I think its really the only way when your employer is also the rule maker. In this case, it doesn't matter because the employer will change the rules to push it through.

I scrolled through my Facebook news feed this morning and I saw a rant about how the Liberal government is taking away democratic rights from teachers.

I can't say that I support the teachers in what they're doing. Everyone in public service is being forced to sacrifice something - whether it's future earnings for current raises, clawbacks on benefit packages, etc. The union should definitely be more strategic because quite frankly, it's bargaining from a position of weakness.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

[GodZilla]

Nope.

Just warehousing. If anything, it should increase the $900 million revenue. Not that it should, as I think our booze is too much.

However, this is the government, so when the private sector makes a change, chances are, they will make more money. With the gov, it will cost more ;)You think booze is to much now? Wait until this private deal goes through it will cost way more money. If you think it wont you are sadly mistaken.

[MindBomber]

Nope.

Just warehousing. If anything, it should increase the $900 million revenue. Not that it should, as I think our booze is too much.

However, this is the government, so when the private sector makes a change, chances are, they will make more money. With the gov, it will cost more ;)

I know, but you and Taylor would like to see the entire system dismantled and in that scenario we would only take tax revenue from the private systems profits. No way would tax revenue even compare to the revenue from owning the system.

Alcohol is a bit expensive, sure. Beer isn't a food staple though, it's a luxury and paying a bit more isn't really hurting anyone.

[Gridlock]

I know, but you and Taylor would like to see the entire system dismantled and in that scenario we would only take tax revenue from the private systems profits. No way would tax revenue even compare to the revenue from owning the system.

Alcohol is a bit expensive, sure. Beer isn't a food staple though, it's a luxury and paying a bit more isn't really hurting anyone.

Here's my problem: I don't care. I'm done. Paying a little extra for booze for the good of the province. Hey! its a luxury. Paying a little more in HST for the good of the province. Hey! It's luxury items. Paying more for gas in carbon taxes and the increased tax for translink. Hey! Driving is a luxury.

I'm done.

Cut spending. People will scream, sure. But they will adapt. Stop trying to be everything to everybody and get out of the way.

If that means that warehousing for booze needs to end, go for it.

[gars]

Here's my problem: I don't care. I'm done. Paying a little extra for booze for the good of the province. Hey! its a luxury. Paying a little more in HST for the good of the province. Hey! It's luxury items. Paying more for gas in carbon taxes and the increased tax for translink. Hey! Driving is a luxury.

I'm done.

Cut spending. People will scream, sure. But they will adapt. Stop trying to be everything to everybody and get out of the way.

If that means that warehousing for booze needs to end, go for it.

What services do you cut though?

[MindBomber]

Here's my problem: I don't care. I'm done. Paying a little extra for booze for the good of the province. Hey! its a luxury. Paying a little more in HST for the good of the province. Hey! It's luxury items. Paying more for gas in carbon taxes and the increased tax for translink. Hey! Driving is a luxury.

I'm done.

Cut spending. People will scream, sure. But they will adapt. Stop trying to be everything to everybody and get out of the way.

If that means that warehousing for booze needs to end, go for it.

I second Gars question.

Even if, let's say, transit were not expanded beyond the status quo. The existing infrastructure still requires funding beyond what basic tax revenue can support and therefore tolls and gas taxes are necessary. You could argue that we should cut routes where the ridership is not high enough to support the cost, but what happens to the population of that area, the people who rely on the bus.

The same goes for health care, where are you going to make cuts?
Don't say the alcohol maintenance program, because that saves money. More than likely, the tobacco programs also save money given the cost associated with treating a single cancer patient.

And I hope you don't support mandatory minimums if your concerned about wasted spending, because paying $500,000+ to punish someone for possessing five pot plants is the definition of waste.

Profit earning businesses run by the government keep taxes low and are an extremely efficient form of revenue collection, imo.

I'm kind of ranting.. rambling..

[gars]

I think there was a thread on this before - but the budget simulator that the BC gov't has on their site gives a great insight to the decisions they face.

Budget Consultations 2012 - The Province of British Columbia (http://www.fin.gov.bc.ca/mybcbudget/mybcbudget.html)

Every little decision made about the

[Gridlock]

Well, I found the actual budget, not the pamplets that people hand out that have little cartoon characters guiding you through.

http://www.bcbudget.gov.bc.ca/2012/bfp/2012_Budget_Fiscal_Plan.pdf

Page 16 and 17 shows a break down of revenue and expenses.

What would I cut? Capital expenses for one. I would never have re-built BC Place as its never going to pay itself off.

They are finally doing it now, but growth in what they call SUCH(schools, universities, colleges and health) was at 6%ish per year which they finally trimmed back to 2% growth, but the budgets for these items take up a large percentage of the overall budget.

Finding areas to cut isn't difficult. 1.6 billion wasted in HST PLUS the provincial costs from it are one good area. Oops. Too late. We just need to get out of the rut that when something bad happens, its run to a government office time.

[gars]

Well, I found the actual budget, not the pamplets that people hand out that have little cartoon characters guiding you through.

http://www.bcbudget.gov.bc.ca/2012/bfp/2012_Budget_Fiscal_Plan.pdf

Page 16 and 17 shows a break down of revenue and expenses.

What would I cut? Capital expenses for one. I would never have re-built BC Place as its never going to pay itself off.

They are finally doing it now, but growth in what they call SUCH(schools, universities, colleges and health) was at 6%ish per year which they finally trimmed back to 2% growth, but the budgets for these items take up a large percentage of the overall budget.

Finding areas to cut isn't difficult. 1.6 billion wasted in HST PLUS the provincial costs from it are one good area. Oops. Too late. We just need to get out of the rut that when something bad happens, its run to a government office time.

I'm not sure I 100% agreed with the taxpayer supported upgrade with BC place - but I don't think we should cut capital expenses. Half the schools in Vancouver are old and falling apart as it is... they're death traps that need to be torn down and rebuilt.

Same with Hospitals? I think it's sad when all the hospitals need charity to fund upgrades because we can't get enough funding for it.

[Gridlock]

I'm not sure I 100% agreed with the taxpayer supported upgrade with BC place - but I don't think we should cut capital expenses. Half the schools in Vancouver are old and falling apart as it is... they're death traps that need to be torn down and rebuilt.

Same with Hospitals? I think it's sad when all the hospitals need charity to fund upgrades because we can't get enough funding for it.

Oh, I get all of it. I can think that there are 100's of hard luck cases that the gov't could swoop in and solve up pretty nicely with a check.

We can throw money at a great number of problems. The issue is, we are. You have Translink building a new skytrain at the same time they are complaining of budget shortfalls. Is it a nice to have? Sure. Do we absolutely need it? Can make a case either way(I know that one is being discussed in another thread, I just mention it as an example)

BC Place...nice to have. Will it ever pay for itself? Not a chance. I really disagree with tax payers outright paying for a stadium. Want to cut taxes on the land, and cut tax rates for its operation? Go nuts. Just don't hand over a check for a sports venue.

Yeah, I'd be pretty choked if my kid is going to school in a substandard building for 8 hours a day while watching "us" build a new(ish) stadium for soccer(among other things) in vancouver that doesn't stand a chance of taking off.

Got to start saying no. Even just to hold the amount of money we currently spend and not increase it.

[conflagrare]

I'm not sure I 100% agreed with the taxpayer supported upgrade with BC place - but I don't think we should cut capital expenses. Half the schools in Vancouver are old and falling apart as it is... they're death traps that need to be torn down and rebuilt.

Same with Hospitals? I think it's sad when all the hospitals need charity to fund upgrades because we can't get enough funding for it.

I don't agree with the upgrade of BC place either, but wasn't this decided a long time ago BEFORE the recession?

[conflagrare]

Oh, I get all of it. I can think that there are 100's of hard luck cases that the gov't could swoop in and solve up pretty nicely with a check.

We can throw money at a great number of problems. The issue is, we are. You have Translink building a new skytrain at the same time they are complaining of budget shortfalls. Is it a nice to have? Sure. Do we absolutely need it? Can make a case either way(I know that one is being discussed in another thread, I just mention it as an example)

BC Place...nice to have. Will it ever pay for itself? Not a chance. I really disagree with tax payers outright paying for a stadium. Want to cut taxes on the land, and cut tax rates for its operation? Go nuts. Just don't hand over a check for a sports venue.

Yeah, I'd be pretty choked if my kid is going to school in a substandard building for 8 hours a day while watching "us" build a new(ish) stadium for soccer(among other things) in vancouver that doesn't stand a chance of taking off.

Got to start saying no. Even just to hold the amount of money we currently spend and not increase it.

You guys gotta put time into perspective. BC Place and the skytrain were decided before. We would've had a balanced budget at that point.

The last thing that tipped us over was HST, and we have been frugal ever since then.

HST cost us $1.6 billion per transition = $3.2 billion.
We're in a $2.5 billion deficit, and then 900 million next year. If we had an extra 3.2 billion, we'd be doing OK.

(I'm just estimating here without going through that detail budget link posted, but you get the idea)

[Gridlock]

You guys gotta put time into perspective. BC Place and the skytrain were decided before. We would've had a balanced budget at that point.

The last thing that tipped us over was HST, and we have been frugal ever since then.

HST cost us $1.6 billion per transition = $3.2 billion.
We're in a $2.5 billion deficit, and then 900 million next year. If we had an extra 3.2 billion, we'd be doing OK.

(I'm just estimating here without going through that detail budget link posted, but you get the idea)

Yes, it was decided before, but its a wonderful example of capital expenditures not being quite on target with the needs of the people. Besides, the evergreen line was wanted for years, but decided on recently.

The evergreen line was wanted by the tri-cities area for years for one reason: increased property value. Has nothing to do with alleviating congestion, that is just a side bonus.

Are we going to be stupid again, and not let the existing companies factor in savings from pre-existing expenditures in their bid packages for the new line? Ie. the company that said our bid is cheaper because we already have the repair and maintenance facilities and everything in place to maintain the current network.

Building a roof on BC Place shows just bad judgement whether the economy tanked or not. Not a priority.

I want a more republican approach where focusing on low taxes and regulatory freedom is the way forward for the province. To get there, I need less entitlement programs and gov't owned/operated facilities that we are making an investment in.

[GodZilla]

Well with all the latest news on the LDB and the GM leaving for another government job makes things more interesting. Looks like the rush to put this through really has more to do with keeping promises to those who provided funds to get you into office. Bob Mackin is just printing up the major truth on this deal. Now even Micheal Levy is saying he changes his mind and we should not sell off the warehouse. This is another move that is not thought out by government and the people of bc will pay for it.

[Vansterdam]

Our liquor prices WILL increase if we dont stop this

[Gridlock]

I'm really thinking that they have lost that last piece of sanity.

I am all for doing something if it makes sense for the government to not be in that business.

In this case, it smells just as bad as BC Rail.

They totally need to spend some time in opposition, and we really need some new politicians in BC.

[GodZilla]

The Libs know that, thats why they are rushing this through. The company Exel has tried for over 10 years to get distribution of liquor in bc and they finally found someone they could buy. Now Christy is rushing this so fast. Even the industry is asking for info and the gov is saying we are on a tight time line. Huh? Why so fast? Oh yah election is early next year.

All the opposition is saying is take the time to think this through and the libs are ignoring that.

[GodZilla]

Nice to see this story finally getting some air time.
This gets worse and worse for the Liberal Party.
Is there is a better way to distribute then show us the plan what is the big secret.

[MR_BIGGS]

No politician should ever have the ability to sell off public assets without a referendum of some sort.

[Snugglez]

You think booze is to much now? Wait until this private deal goes through it will cost way more money. If you think it wont you are sadly mistaken.

Wouldn't privatization increase competition? That would reduce the prices.

[Gridlock]

Wouldn't privatization increase competition? That would reduce the prices.

In theory, yes.

Unfortunately, if only one company takes over, the only thing accomplished is a government monopoly on distribution is replaced with a private one.

I find it sad that out of all the (lack of) discussion, no one has made a real compelling argument for this sale.

[Pooface55]

Anybody see the stupid side road/bike lane they installed on argyle st? Its a bike lane thats 2 blocks long :fulloffuck:

What a waste of money.

[Tapioca]

Anybody see the stupid side road/bike lane they installed on argyle st? Its a bike lane thats 2 blocks long :fulloffuck:

What a waste of money.

What does this have to do with provincial politicians?

What you do is tweet Mayor Gregor or Geoff Meggs as these are the guys who are responsible for the bike lanes as opposed to Christi Clark.

This is why in the olden days only land owners were deemed worthy enough to vote in elections.

[goo3]

No politician should ever have the ability to sell off public assets without a referendum of some sort.

I don't know if this would be much better. People put more thought into buying a pair of shoes...

[Gerbs]

Sorry for the stupid question: So would it better to buy a car before the HST goes down or after or its the same thing?

[MR_BIGGS]

^ Troll

[UFO]

Sorry for the stupid question: So would it better to buy a car before the HST goes down or after or its the same thing?

no difference if buying from dealership. If buying private cheaper to wait til HST is gone

[Tapioca]

I don't know if this would be much better. People put more thought into buying a pair of shoes...

Agreed.

While referendums are a good idea in theory, they make governing a chore. And popular opinion can be bought just as easily as the vote of a politician.

Remember when we had a referendum on the HST?

[Snugglez]

In theory, yes.

Unfortunately, if only one company takes over, the only thing accomplished is a government monopoly on distribution is replaced with a private one.

I find it sad that out of all the (lack of) discussion, no one has made a real compelling argument for this sale.

There are already liquor stores within the lower mainland, that is not B.C. Liquor. I mean with the relaxation of government regulation, maybe it can work.

[Tapioca]

There are already liquor stores within the lower mainland, that is not B.C. Liquor. I mean with the relaxation of government regulation, maybe it can work.

The government still acts as the distributor.

What is being proposed is that there will be a tender for the distribution which means there will be only one winning bid. This will result in a monopoly on the distribution side which means a private system will be no better than what we have now. But hey, a company can pay warehouse workers $10.50 an hour instead of paying union wages and supposedly, those savings will get passed down to the retailers, bars, and restaurants which will mean cost savings for us, right?

[GodZilla]

The government still acts as the distributor.

What is being proposed is that there will be a tender for the distribution which means there will be only one winning bid. This will result in a monopoly on the distribution side which means a private system will be no better than what we have now. But hey, a company can pay warehouse workers $10.50 an hour instead of paying union wages and supposedly, those savings will get passed down to the retailers, bars, and restaurants which will mean cost savings for us, right?

Wrong

The company trying to strong arm and win is Exel or Connect Logistics as they are know in Alberta but they are the same company. They have to take the current employees for two years at an average salary of of $19 per hour.

$10.50? way off.

Check the Alberta models website here is a quote from them.

" New team members start at $18.10/hr with the potential to earn an additional $4.25/hr or more in productivity incentives, shift premium and team based gainshare.You could soon be earning $22.35/hr! "

NEW team members start at $18.10 hour that is higher then BCLDB which starts at seasonal workers 13.50 and auxiliary workers for 14.50.

So I ask you the savings get passed down? What savings? There are none all the new company will do is charge for everything they do to the private stores. Placing orders dock fee's late order fee's higher delivery fee's. All that added up will mean the privates restaurants bars pubs will have to raise the prices to maintain there current profit margin.

But hey the government say it wont raise the price of booze.
Of course they wont the new private distributor will charge higher fees and the bars and pubs will raise the price and you will be choked at them.

So $18.50 (Exel) compared to (LDB) $13.50 / $14.50 you tell me which one is cheaper.

[Gridlock]

Wrong

The company trying to strong arm and win is Exel or Connect Logistics as they are know in Alberta but they are the same company. They have to take the current employees for two years at an average salary of of $19 per hour.

$10.50? way off.

Check the Alberta models website here is a quote from them.

" New team members start at $18.10/hr with the potential to earn an additional $4.25/hr or more in productivity incentives, shift premium and team based gainshare.You could soon be earning $22.35/hr! "

NEW team members start at $18.10 hour that is higher then BCLDB which starts at seasonal workers 13.50 and auxiliary workers for 14.50.

So I ask you the savings get passed down? What savings? There are none all the new company will do is charge for everything they do to the private stores. Placing orders dock fee's late order fee's higher delivery fee's. All that added up will mean the privates restaurants bars pubs will have to raise the prices to maintain there current profit margin.

But hey the government say it wont raise the price of booze.
Of course they wont the new private distributor will charge higher fees and the bars and pubs will raise the price and you will be choked at them.

So $18.50 (Exel) compared to (LDB) $13.50 / $14.50 you tell me which one is cheaper.

I'm wondering if there is less of a ongoing cost associated with the employees in terms of pensions and such.

Plus I'd imagine that a lot of employees would get strong armed into leaving after the 2 years.

I don't know...I think we are all getting sold a pile of bs, both from the gov't AND the unions.

[GodZilla]

You are right after two years they can either stay and except there company's wages and benefits or they can leave.
I understand why people want it out of the governments hands. I just do not like the process.
No business plan has been produced. Why? Did the people not vote you in do we as the public have a right to know why.

This is being fast tracked and when they are asked by the NDP to slow down and review the liberals say they are on a tight time line and must be completed by March. Right before the election

Is the industry involved? No. They have not consulted with them and wont because they are on a tight time line. It effects them in a big way but the liberals wont talk with them?

This is being fast tracked because Christy Clarke made promises if she got in and now she is paying back her debts.

And to those who say i have no problem if prices go up need to give there head a shake.

Those already expensive drinks will just get higher because people did not want the government in the distribution of booze.

[GodZilla]

Well looks like the BS sale is over. Booze prices will not increase and the Liberals can start packing up to be voted out.