[sonick]

Article: MPs to consider debate on when human life begins - Politics - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/04/25/pol-abortion-stephen-woodworth-motion.html?cmp=rss)

Touchy subject, but a pretty big deal.

Conservative MP's are going to consider starting a special committee to consider when human life begins, with the intent of opening the possibility of re-criminalizing abortion in Canada even though in the past Harper has pledged not to raise the abortion issue.

When he announced the motion, Woodworth had argued he was simply interested in updating the law to agree with 21st-century medicine. But speaking to Radio-Canada on Monday, he admitted his motion is linked to abortion.

"It certainly allows us to have an honest discussion about the abortion question. How can we honestly discuss all of the complicated issues around abortion if we cannot decide whether or not a child is a human being before the moment of the complete birth?" Woodworth said.

Sign the petition: Tell Harper: Hands off our reproductive rights - Liberal.ca - Liberal.ca (http://petition.liberal.ca/abortion-debate-woodworth-harper-canada-reproductive-rights-pro-choice-lucie-pepin/)

[Lomac]

Religion and religious beliefs have no place in government, nor should it have an impact on how laws are created.

If this committee actually gets created, then those idiots in government had better not push to have abortion redeclared illegal. I don't care if you think it's right or wrong based on your religious beliefs.

[Manic!]

Dr Harper and Dr Woodworth have right to because they are... wait they are not never mind.

[miss_crayon]

I signed it.

I firmly believe a woman should have every right to choose whether abortion is right or wrong for them. I totally understand it if someone who has religious POV/moral codes against it but I don't think this is something that can have a YES or NO answer.

For example, rape victims. Many women choose not to have their rapists baby, which is completely understandable. Telling a woman they are wrong to "kill" someone when they were viciously attacked is just.......ARE YOU SERIOUS?!

[dinosaur]

Ugh...I hate this topic! Mostly because it turns into an issue of religion and NOT a freedom of choice issue.

The shit-show that just happened in the US regarding point of conception and what constitutes a "life" was like watching a competition of stupidity and I DO NOT want that to happen here.

Though I am not a proponent of women (and men) using abortion as a form a birth control, and am most certainly pro-choice.

Do I think there is a happy medium? No. Give women a choice or don't. Even though I hear about women using it as a form of birth control, I'd much rather have the choice to prevent children being born out of rape, incest, etc.

[SkinnyPupp]

Fucking hilarious seeing this thread right beside one trying to get people to abolish smart meters

Priorities, people :fulloffuck:

[Bouncing Bettys]

Cue the Liberal Party comeback.

The conservatives would really be shooting themselves in the foot here and lose a lot of economically conservative/socially progressive voters.

[Great68]

How am I not surprised that this slimeball piece of shit lying douchebag of a government would do something like this?

[LiquidTurbo]

So, essentially, some old men want to decide what a woman can do to her body.

Religion and religious beliefs have no place in government, nor should it have an impact on how laws are created.

If this committee actually gets created, then those idiots in government had better not push to have abortion redeclared illegal. I don't care if you think it's right or wrong based on your religious beliefs.

+1000000000000

[LiquidTurbo]

Some random comment in the article that made me lol:

"I believe that life starts with the sperm therefore to be fair they should also ban masturbation. "

[Gridlock]

Cue the Liberal Party comeback.

The conservatives would really be shooting themselves in the foot here and lose a lot of economically conservative/socially progressive voters.

Agreed. That's what brought me on board. This could be what takes me back out.

[wstce92]

I signed it.

I firmly believe a woman should have every right to choose whether abortion is right or wrong for them. I totally understand it if someone who has religious POV/moral codes against it but I don't think this is something that can have a YES or NO answer.

For example, rape victims. Many women choose not to have their rapists baby, which is completely understandable. Telling a woman they are wrong to "kill" someone when they were viciously attacked is just.......ARE YOU SERIOUS?!

Not to mention, think of the CHILDREN!
Most people argue that women shouldn't be able to choose cause they're choosing for a life that's not theirs. Well, if not caring about women is your thing, what about children?

If I'm a woman who doesn't want a child, chances are, if I can't abort, I'm not going to do a very good job of raising it.
If I'm raped and I have the child, what if the child reminds me of my ordeal everyday? That will probably translate into my relationship with my child.
If I just ditch my child after I have it. Sure lots of kids who are adopted end up with great, well-off parents; but what about the ones that don't?

I'm not saying the kid's life will be shit. But I'd bet my balls their chances of a shitty childhood are greater than a kid who's parents wanted to have them.

Who are we to gamble on someone's life like that; knowing that the odds are stacked against them.

[MindBomber]

Agreed. That's what brought me on board. This could be what takes me back out.

While voting for the most economically conservative party is great, it's hardly surprising that Harper would attempt something like banning abortion with a majority government, and if he's successful in pushing his religious agenda through, it will do more damage to our country than any spending decisions ever could. Harper isn't even that economically conservative compared to liberals anyway..

[Gridlock]

While voting for the most economically conservative party is great, it's hardly surprising that Harper would attempt something like banning abortion with a majority government, and if he's successful in pushing his religious agenda through, it will do more damage to our country than any spending decisions ever could. Harper isn't even that economically conservative compared to liberals anyway..

I've always been a huge liberal supporter...provincially and federally.

Ever since the end of Martin, they've been in the shitter. They were in power for too long and got sloppy. Now, they can't connect with voters.

I agree with you...I think the liberals struck a great balance of investment, low taxes, debt re-payment and a decent social net.

Then they started calling for a universal child care system.

Fuck that!

Yeah, I know...won't somebody think of the kids.

I don't want yet another entitlement program on the books that we can't pay for.

In fact, the rest of their platform was a bunch of little things from the tree huggers at Jack's feet, and a knock against the Conservatives. I know you kids wanna be in the middle, but can you do a little independent thought?

I honestly don't know where I land on the abortion subject. For me, you either have it or you don't. I certainly don't want the american style "you can begrudgingly have abortion, but we are going to make you listen to the heart beat, and watch a video on the procedure for 'informative' purposes" and all that other shit they come up with to make abortion the most painful experience possible.

BUT...I start seeing some of the excuses above and it makes me sick to my stomach. Like, have some responsibility people! Some chicks treat abortion clinics like fucking drive-throughs-"I'll take a whopper, a large fry and just suck this baby out for me and we'll be all good!"

"If I'm a woman who doesn't want a child, chances are, if I can't abort, I'm not going to do a very good job of raising it."

So, its better off dead.

If I'm raped and I have the child, what if the child reminds me of my ordeal everyday? That will probably translate into my relationship with my child.

So, its better off dead.

If I just ditch my child after I have it. Sure lots of kids who are adopted end up with great, well-off parents; but what about the ones that don't?

Well, they are probably better off dead.


I'm not saying the kid's life will be shit. But I'd bet my balls their chances of a shitty childhood are greater than a kid who's parents wanted to have them."

You know whats better than a shitty childhood? Death by vacuum.

Maybe we need to be open to re-examining the issue. If its good, and the people support it, then it won't change. If the population is ready for change, then this might be the chance.

We all know what he wants to do, its a matter of what he will do that counts.

[StylinRed]

Telling a woman they are wrong to "kill" someone when they were viciously attacked is just.......ARE YOU SERIOUS?!

i get what you're saying i just had to quote that particularly cuz it looks so WTF lol

also i dont think its ever been illegal for a woman who was raped to have an abortion in Canada or the US or even Europe



back ot

Canada is the only country in the world where Abortion isn't regulated; so Abortion is not Legal or Illegal in Canada there is simply no law stating such (Morgentaler case simply decriminalized it)
so a woman could get an abortion up until the point the baby comes out if she could find someone to perform the abortion at such a late term (having an abortion @ 8months and 29 days if you will)
or women can even be stuck finding no1 to provide them abortion throughout their pregnancy; again there is simply no law stating rights or otherwise
its also why doctors can refuse giving abortions forcing women to find abortion clinics, which don't exist everywhere, like up in the Territories leaving women with NO choices.

After the Morgentaler (1988) case Canada hasn't had any law regarding Abortion and that's what the issue here is really its not about religion (it might be for some involved who knows?)

[MindBomber]

I've always been a huge liberal supporter...provincially and federally.

Ever since the end of Martin, they've been in the shitter. They were in power for too long and got sloppy. Now, they can't connect with voters.

I agree with you...I think the liberals struck a great balance of investment, low taxes, debt re-payment and a decent social net.

Then they started calling for a universal child care system.

Fuck that!

Yeah, I know...won't somebody think of the kids.

I don't want yet another entitlement program on the books that we can't pay for.

In fact, the rest of their platform was a bunch of little things from the tree huggers at Jack's feet, and a knock against the Conservatives. I know you kids wanna be in the middle, but can you do a little independent thought?

I honestly don't know where I land on the abortion subject. For me, you either have it or you don't. I certainly don't want the american style "you can begrudgingly have abortion, but we are going to make you listen to the heart beat, and watch a video on the procedure for 'informative' purposes" and all that other shit they come up with to make abortion the most painful experience possible.

BUT...I start seeing some of the excuses above and it makes me sick to my stomach. Like, have some responsibility people! Some chicks treat abortion clinics like fucking drive-throughs-"I'll take a whopper, a large fry and just suck this baby out for me and we'll be all good!"

"If I'm a woman who doesn't want a child, chances are, if I can't abort, I'm not going to do a very good job of raising it."

So, its better off dead.

If I'm raped and I have the child, what if the child reminds me of my ordeal everyday? That will probably translate into my relationship with my child.

So, its better off dead.

If I just ditch my child after I have it. Sure lots of kids who are adopted end up with great, well-off parents; but what about the ones that don't?

Well, they are probably better off dead.


I'm not saying the kid's life will be shit. But I'd bet my balls their chances of a shitty childhood are greater than a kid who's parents wanted to have them."

You know whats better than a shitty childhood? Death by vacuum.

Maybe we need to be open to re-examining the issue. If its good, and the people support it, then it won't change. If the population is ready for change, then this might be the chance.

We all know what he wants to do, its a matter of what he will do that counts.

I agree with everything you've stated.

Since the passing of the era of Cretian and Martin, the Liberal party has been lost and flailing. Leader after leader, none of them are able to connect with voters or give the party a clear direction.

I even agree with you on an opposition to a universal child care program, shocking I know, a social program I don't support! If people make the clear minded choice to produce offspring, then they should consider the financial implications of that decision and be prepared for it. I'd like to see Canadians adopt an approach to raising small families with no more than two children, the world population is out of control and state of humanity declining, rather than having five children have two and raise them exceptionally well.

Back on topic though, abortion.

I once held a passionate view that there were women who treated abortion too passively, as if there were no repercussions for the decisions that lead to them allowing themselves to become pregnant, because a brief, albeit uncomfortable trip to the abortion clinic could easily solve the "problem." I presented that opinion to a feminist friends years ago though and she tore me apart. Since then, I've realized how small the percentage of women who actually view an abortion so calmly and callously actually is. Ultimately, abortion is a very emotional and difficult decision for the woman and possible man involved. If a person finds themselves in the circumstances where they believe it is necessary, I don't believe that government should be allowed to impose a law to prevent it.

[StylinRed]

also if abortion is solely the choice of women then men shouldn't be on the hook for child support, so should fathers have a say?

[Graeme S]

Quick disclaimer before I start: I'm a man, and I can never and will never get pregnant; therefor to be quite frank my opinion matters not even one tiny sliver of a fuck unless the potenti-child being discussed happens to come partially from my loins.

BUT...I start seeing some of the excuses above and it makes me sick to my stomach. Like, have some responsibility people! Some chicks treat abortion clinics like fucking drive-throughs-"I'll take a whopper, a large fry and just suck this baby out for me and we'll be all good!"

"If I'm a woman who doesn't want a child, chances are, if I can't abort, I'm not going to do a very good job of raising it."

So, its better off dead.

If I'm raped and I have the child, what if the child reminds me of my ordeal everyday? That will probably translate into my relationship with my child.

So, its better off dead.

If I just ditch my child after I have it. Sure lots of kids who are adopted end up with great, well-off parents; but what about the ones that don't?

Well, they are probably better off dead.


I'm not saying the kid's life will be shit. But I'd bet my balls their chances of a shitty childhood are greater than a kid who's parents wanted to have them."

You know whats better than a shitty childhood? Death by vacuum.

Maybe we need to be open to re-examining the issue. If its good, and the people support it, then it won't change. If the population is ready for change, then this might be the chance.

We all know what he wants to do, its a matter of what he will do that counts.
"Better off dead" implies infanticide. We can't convict people's bodies for miscarriages, so why would we cast blame on an abortion? Better to say "Better never alive." Sure, we're splitting hairs, but isn't that what everyone does in situations where the whole damned spectrum is grey?

I feel somewhat anxious when people say that abortions are treated as a form of birth control. Anecdotally, we all know this is true. But while I was at BCIT I did a marketing project on a counselling clinic that offered abortion services. Long story short, I was busy and the other people on my team (girls) decided they would choose it. Talk about heavy stuff.

So it turns out that getting an abortion is a very long and complicated process. If you go there, they won't even discuss abortion until they've talked with you about your situation. And by YOU, I mean YOU. Anyone who's there with you for support gets taken to a separate waiting room, so that they can't place undue influence on you. They tell you about all of the options you have: adoption, parental support, and finally, abortion. You're then booked in with another appointment, at which point you can make further inquiries, or decide to have an abortion. Again, they book another appointment several weeks later and suggest alternatives.


Now, undoubtedly, there are some places that offer abortions more easily. But let's be honest--hitting a doctor and getting the pill is a LOT more convenient as a method of birth control. And the potential benefits to those who are in dire straits (be it for emotional, familial, or financial reasons) seem to outweigh the...dark grey areas.



Now, all that having been said, I feel that as a man I have no fucking say whatsoever that happens within a woman, unless I was involved in putting it there. We want to discuss abortion? We need to have a majority of the participants being women. Which is...not going to happen for a long long long time.

[Gridlock]

Quick disclaimer before I start: I'm a man, and I can never and will never get pregnant; therefor to be quite frank my opinion matters not even one tiny sliver of a fuck unless the potenti-child being discussed happens to come partially from my loins.

"Better off dead" implies infanticide. We can't convict people's bodies for miscarriages, so why would we cast blame on an abortion? Better to say "Better never alive." Sure, we're splitting hairs, but isn't that what everyone does in situations where the whole damned spectrum is grey?

I feel somewhat anxious when people say that abortions are treated as a form of birth control. Anecdotally, we all know this is true. But while I was at BCIT I did a marketing project on a counselling clinic that offered abortion services. Long story short, I was busy and the other people on my team (girls) decided they would choose it. Talk about heavy stuff.

So it turns out that getting an abortion is a very long and complicated process. If you go there, they won't even discuss abortion until they've talked with you about your situation. And by YOU, I mean YOU. Anyone who's there with you for support gets taken to a separate waiting room, so that they can't place undue influence on you. They tell you about all of the options you have: adoption, parental support, and finally, abortion. You're then booked in with another appointment, at which point you can make further inquiries, or decide to have an abortion. Again, they book another appointment several weeks later and suggest alternatives.


Now, undoubtedly, there are some places that offer abortions more easily. But let's be honest--hitting a doctor and getting the pill is a LOT more convenient as a method of birth control. And the potential benefits to those who are in dire straits (be it for emotional, familial, or financial reasons) seem to outweigh the...dark grey areas.



Now, all that having been said, I feel that as a man I have no fucking say whatsoever that happens within a woman, unless I was involved in putting it there. We want to discuss abortion? We need to have a majority of the participants being women. Which is...not going to happen for a long long long time.

Yeah, I'm with you.

I'm a dude, and I haven't gotten a girl pregnant, so therefore, I've never been there and had to face the choice.

I guess, I don't know. I'm a small government guy, and unlike most conservative minded folk, actually believe that small government means small, not just excluding the things that you don't like-that's 'selective government' in my books.

So I don't like the idea at all of the government telling us what we can do and what we can't when we're faced with an unplanned pregnancy in a million different scenarios.

And yeah, I said we. I don't like this "its women only" stuff at all. Not to be against women, but I'm for men..namely, I'm for men actually standing up to their responsibilities.

Yes, for every "teenaged girl in a situation desperately trying to regain her life" I can also find you a "oops. Out of condoms. Oh well" So begrudgingly, I have to say, who are we to judge? You can't assign a litmus test that you are deserving of an abortion. It's there for everyone, or not at all.

And when I read that quote above, that I so eloquently answered sarcastically that death must be better-it infuriates me.

You want women to have the right to choose? Fine. But do it for the right reasons! Oh, the kid is going to be unwanted, so abort the fucker now is NOT logical.

And this is the point, in everything I write on this subject where I say fuck it! Maybe we do need legislation because this is human fucking life that people are terminating because its inconvenient.

As much as I want to support a woman's right to choose, it disgusts me beyond belief that the act of it is cleansed of the true horror, packaged in pretty little brochures and sold to women as a solution to their problem.

I really think the goal should be to make adoption more of a primary option. That includes after adoption support and rights to make it more palatable to the women.

[Manic!]

i get what you're saying i just had to quote that particularly cuz it looks so WTF lol

also i dont think its ever been illegal for a woman who was raped to have an abortion in Canada or the US or even Europe





Should use Google first because you are wrong.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp/hi/image_maps/07/1168000000/1168858931/img/europe_abort416x416.gif

BBC News - Europe's abortion rules (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6235557.stm)

[Ronin]

I'm always for the separation of church and state...as far apart as possible.

[StylinRed]

Should use Google first because you are wrong.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp/hi/image_maps/07/1168000000/1168858931/img/europe_abort416x416.gif

BBC News - Europe's abortion rules (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6235557.stm)

actually that doesnt indicate whether rape is an excuse for having an abortion or not? when reading the link its indicated rape is a cause for abortion in several of those countries but it doesnt say otherwise for the others...

unless you mean Malta as an indication for the entirety of europe...


edit: so did a little research only Ireland, Andorra, San Marino dont allow abortion for rape victims (malta as well but they defer to European law which says yes) and Andorra/san marino/vatican city don't really count as a country ;)

[TheNewGirl]

Not to mention, think of the CHILDREN!
Most people argue that women shouldn't be able to choose cause they're choosing for a life that's not theirs. Well, if not caring about women is your thing, what about children?

If I'm a woman who doesn't want a child, chances are, if I can't abort, I'm not going to do a very good job of raising it.
If I'm raped and I have the child, what if the child reminds me of my ordeal everyday? That will probably translate into my relationship with my child.
If I just ditch my child after I have it. Sure lots of kids who are adopted end up with great, well-off parents; but what about the ones that don't?

I'm not saying the kid's life will be shit. But I'd bet my balls their chances of a shitty childhood are greater than a kid who's parents wanted to have them.

Who are we to gamble on someone's life like that; knowing that the odds are stacked against them.

In freakenomics there was actually a really interesting article trending the legality of abortion against crime rates 15-20 years after the fact and found a correlation. THAT said the kids raised in a period of abortion being illegal also were raised in a more authoritative, religiously conservative culture where women are treated as lesser citizens so it's not JUST the availability of abortion that determines that but it's a symptom of a culture that creates greater deviance down the road. - Freakonomics » Chapter 4 (http://www.freakonomics.com/books/freakonomics/chapter-excerpts/chapter-4/)

Also. The idea that these fuckers are reopining this debate makes me furious beyond words.

[drunkrussian]

prettycool to see that every commenter is pro choice goves hope for the fiture. altho kinda sad that this is not the present with stuff like this in the news

[TheNewGirl]

BUT...I start seeing some of the excuses above and it makes me sick to my stomach. Like, have some responsibility people! Some chicks treat abortion clinics like fucking drive-throughs-"I'll take a whopper, a large fry and just suck this baby out for me and we'll be all good!"


I have known people who have had abortions. I have never known anyone to ever have more than one. It was always a painful and traumatic experience that came after hard, hard consideration even when it was instances involving things such as rape or health issues.

This idea of drive through abortions is conservative propaganda is in no way reflective of actual reality. Our system is not such that you can just walk in and say 'I would like an abortion today please', nor is it a thing that anyone but a genuine psychopath can undergo with out being deeply impacted (even if outwardly they may not pretend it is so).

[westopher]

I can't believe how fucked up and full of shit the canadian government has become under the current conservative reign.:suspicious: I would imagine that if the abortion yes/no vote was brought to polls for people under 40 (the people that actually may have to be faced with that decision) like 10% would vote against it being legal, and 5% of those people would be insane religious fanatics that believe "the gays" (as quoted by them of course) are unnatural and evil as well.

[pinn3r]

Signed it. Shared it.

If I accidentally impregnate my girlfriend, what the hell am I supposed to do?
Fuck you Harper! :2finger:

Also, when a women becomes impregnated, it's basically a fucking clump of cells. Until it fully develops into the shape of a human, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it :swear:

[Gridlock]

Signed it. Shared it.

If I accidentally impregnate my girlfriend, what the hell am I supposed to do?
Fuck you Harper! :2finger:

Also, when a women becomes impregnated, it's basically a fucking clump of cells. Until it fully develops into the shape of a human, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it :swear:

Thank you.

You proved my point.

[gars]

I'm at work and can't do too much research into this, but can someone point out what's the latest you can have an abortion? I thought if the fetus can survive outside the womb (like a premature baby), it's illegal to have an abortion? A quick google seems to contradict that, it looks like there's no restrictions on how late you can have an abortion.

I respect the woman's right to choice, but I also want to prevent things like women aborting a baby after finding out their sex, etc.

[TheNewGirl]

Currently they do not tell you the gender of the baby on a standard MSP paid ultrasound if you are prior to 20 weeks - most of the clinics will not do a non health issue related abortion beyond 3 months (the first trimester).

You CAN go to a private clinic and pay to find out the gender of the baby but this really still can't accurately be determined via ultrasound in the first trimester.

BUT while in many countries, selectively aborting babies on a gender basis is an issue, with the bulk of the Canadian population this is a non issue.

[MindBomber]

Signed it. Shared it.

If I accidentally impregnate my girlfriend, what the hell am I supposed to do?
Fuck you Harper! :2finger:

Also, when a women becomes impregnated, it's basically a fucking clump of cells. Until it fully develops into the shape of a human, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it :swear:

Thank you.

You proved my point.

Pretty sure he was just being facetious there..

[miss_crayon]

I'm at work and can't do too much research into this, but can someone point out what's the latest you can have an abortion? I thought if the fetus can survive outside the womb (like a premature baby), it's illegal to have an abortion? A quick google seems to contradict that, it looks like there's no restrictions on how late you can have an abortion.

I respect the woman's right to choice, but I also want to prevent things like women aborting a baby after finding out their sex, etc.

I thought this too. I was under the assumption that anything done after 3 months? is the latest. Not so much illegal but harder to do?

[mikemhg]

I am so happy the conservatives are going this route. Goes to show that power doesn't pass common sense. This party has become WAY too comfortable with their majority, going down this route will see them gone before the term. The sooner these assholes are out of office, the better.

Does anyone find it interesting how this American Conservative agenda has been able to permeate into Canadian politics? I find it very interesting how this Conservative agenda seems to follow the same recipe in both countries, i.e. less Corporate taxes, less government regulation, yet harder policies on crime, military, and social issues. I mean the agenda is so hypocritical it's laughable.

It's so frustrating because you know the interests that are going on behind the scenes, but we as regular people are completely left in the dark.

[drunkrussian]

Signed it. Shared it.

If I accidentally impregnate my girlfriend, what the hell am I supposed to do?

Plan B Pill :fuckyea:

[pinn3r]

Pretty sure he was just being facetious there..

No, I'm actually serious lol

[Inaii]

16 weeks is the latest you can do one and there's only one clinic in Vancouver who will. Normally it's up to 14 weeks.

[Graeme S]

16 weeks is the latest you can do one and there's only one clinic in Vancouver who will. Normally it's up to 14 weeks.
Legally, that's not the case here. Though many doctors will, due to personal morality, follow the general guidelines you just listed.

[LiquidTurbo]

Signed it. Shared it.

If I accidentally impregnate my girlfriend, what the hell am I supposed to do?
Fuck you Harper! :2finger:

Also, when a women becomes impregnated, it's basically a fucking clump of cells. Until it fully develops into the shape of a human, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it :swear:

But life begins at conception :troll:

[blackGS?]

I for one agree that church and government should be as far apart as possible.
Also, I am also grateful that my mom chose not to abort me... It's funny how those who are Pro-abortion have already been born.

[Gridlock]

But life begins at conception :troll:

Ok, let's take a different approach.

When does life start? When does pinn3r's "clump of cells" become a life?

Because supporting a woman's right to choose or not, terminating a child at 14-16 weeks sounds like we're ending life to me.

[Graeme S]

Ok, let's take a different approach.

When does life start? When does pinn3r's "clump of cells" become a life?

Because supporting a woman's right to choose or not, terminating a child at 14-16 weeks sounds like we're ending life to me.
In my mind, life becomes life when it is self-sustaining. So basically, at whichever point a preemie could survive. But again, everyone's different


It's funny how those who are Pro-abortion have already been born.

:fulloffuck: So have anti-abortionists.

[Gridlock]

I for one agree that church and government should be as far apart as possible.
Also, I am also grateful that my mom chose not to abort me... It's funny how those who are Pro-abortion have already been born.

Pro-choice is not pro-abortion.

I'm still pro-choice and vehemently opposed to abortion. It's basically saying I would do anything to stop it from happening, except force the government to make the choice for you.

[LiquidTurbo]

Ok, let's take a different approach.

When does life start? When does pinn3r's "clump of cells" become a life?

Because supporting a woman's right to choose or not, terminating a child at 14-16 weeks sounds like we're ending life to me.

I respectfully decline to continue this dialogue.

I feel that by discussing it, we are no better than the old men who want to decide what women can do to their own bodies.

[Gridlock]

I don't know man...you start pushing into 16 weeks, that's 4 months...It may not survive on its own, but it seems pretty "alive" to me.

This is from wikipedia listed at 18 weeks.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/20_weeks_pregnant.png

That looks pretty life-like.

[El Bastardo]

I'll formally go on the record to say that I'm pro-abortion.

[MindBomber]

Ok, let's take a different approach.

When does life start? When does pinn3r's "clump of cells" become a life?

Because supporting a woman's right to choose or not, terminating a child at 14-16 weeks sounds like we're ending life to me.

Life begins when the male and female body create a sperm and egg.

Based on my crude understanding of a babies development during pregnancy, I believe a reasonable degree of sentience begins to emerge around week 20.

[LiquidTurbo]

Edit.

[gars]

Legally, that's not the case here. Though many doctors will, due to personal morality, follow the general guidelines you just listed.

So legally, they could have an abortion at any given time??

[Great68]

I'll formally go on the record to say that I'm pro-abortion.

Yep. I don't really care about when women can abort, so long as they can.

[pinn3r]

Holy shit, just let the women decide what they want to do; the body is theirs
As I stated before, the moment the sperm fertilizes the egg, it's just a zygote. It has no capability of anything; no thoughts, no emotions ...
Until it actually develops into a human-like fetus, I'd actually be against that
If you're an anti-abortionist, you'd better fucking adopt all those unwanted children

[StylinRed]

So legally, they could have an abortion at any given time??

hmm guess ppl didnt read my post :P


we have no laws in canada on whats legal or illegal, the 1988 morgentaler case, that opened the doors for women to abort, simply decriminalized abortion it didn't set any guidelines it didn't do anything other than decriminalize abortion

technically a women can get an abortion when her water breaks if she wants to and it wouldnt be murder but the moment the baby protrudes/comes out of her it would be classified as murder/manslaughter/etc

we, Canada, are the only country in the world with no laws regarding Abortion (hell even much of europe and russia and asia had abortion laws back in the 1920s/30s) there are no laws saying its a womens right to have an abortion so women can still be denied and not all women have easy access to abortion because of that

how archaic are we that we have nothing til this day? and that's all the conservatives are trying to do here its simply the media and the other political parties that are trying to spin this into Conservatives wanting to ban abortion but in actuality we have no idea what they're proposing

[will068]

Pro-choice is not pro-abortion.

I'm still pro-choice and vehemently opposed to abortion. It's basically saying I would do anything to stop it from happening, except force the government to make the choice for you.

Cosign.

[SkinnyPupp]

hmm guess ppl didnt read my post :P


we have no laws in canada on whats legal or illegal, the 1988 morgentaler case, that opened the doors for women to abort, simply decriminalized abortion it didn't set any guidelines it didn't do anything other than decriminalize abortion

technically a women can get an abortion when her water breaks if she wants to and it wouldnt be murder but the moment the baby protrudes/comes out of her it would be classified as murder/manslaughter/etc

we, Canada, are the only country in the world with no laws regarding Abortion (hell even much of europe and russia and asia had abortion laws back in the 1920s/30s) there are no laws saying its a womens right to have an abortion so women can still be denied and not all women have easy access to abortion because of that

how archaic are we that we have nothing til this day? and that's all the conservatives are trying to do here its simply the media and the other political parties that are trying to spin this into Conservatives wanting to ban abortion but in actuality we have no idea what they're proposing
That's what I'm trying to figure out. Why do people equate "trying to form abortion laws" with "those evil christians want to ban abortion"? :fulloffuck:

[7seven]

hmm guess ppl didnt read my post :P


we have no laws in canada on whats legal or illegal, the 1988 morgentaler case, that opened the doors for women to abort, simply decriminalized abortion it didn't set any guidelines it didn't do anything other than decriminalize abortion

technically a women can get an abortion when her water breaks if she wants to and it wouldnt be murder but the moment the baby protrudes/comes out of her it would be classified as murder/manslaughter/etc

we, Canada, are the only country in the world with no laws regarding Abortion (hell even much of europe and russia and asia had abortion laws back in the 1920s/30s) there are no laws saying its a womens right to have an abortion so women can still be denied and not all women have easy access to abortion because of that

how archaic are we that we have nothing til this day? and that's all the conservatives are trying to do here its simply the media and the other political parties that are trying to spin this into Conservatives wanting to ban abortion but in actuality we have no idea what they're proposing

First off let me say I am pro choice, I have had my assed saved by abortions twice, no way in hell do I have any interest in having any kids.

Having said that, I too am not understanding why everyone especially the Liberal party is flipping out and overracting and turning this into a pro choice/abortion ban issue when all they are attempting to do is define legally when life begins and modernize the law as the current Canadian law is based on a 400 year old definition, "when a child has fully emerged from the mother's birth canal".

You can all flip out if the Conservatives or any other party tries to define life as beginning at insemination or within the first trimester or 16 weeks, which then would effectively ban abortion/make it a criminal act.

[SkinnyPupp]

Actually I am quite OK with that definition :)

[7seven]

All to do about nothing

OTTAWA (NEWS1130) - Prime Minister Stephen Harper says he'll vote against a motion introduced by one of his MPs that has reignited the national abortion debate.
The Opposition and pro-choice advocates argue Harper himself was inciting a new round of public battles over abortion by allowing debate on Tory MP Stephen Woodworth's motion.

While Harper says he would personally reject the motion, he notes individual members of Parliament can bring anything they choose to the Commons floor. "Every private member can table bills and motions in the House. Party leaders don't have any control over that."

"This motion was deemed votable by an all-party committee of the House. I think that's unfortunate. In my case I will be voting against the motion," he explains.

Harper says he'll vote against bill on human definition - News1130 (http://www.news1130.com/news/national/article/356477--harper-says-he-ll-vote-against-bill-on-human-definition)

[Gridlock]

First off let me say I am pro choice, I have had my assed saved by abortions twice, no way in hell do I have any interest in having any kids.


I'm sorry man. I'm just doing this to prove a point.

And that point is, you just proved mine.

"I'm all for a woman's right to choose. Especially when it works out for me"

I'm going to share a story here. When I was 19, I decided to move to BC to join my family that had already moved here . I had a girlfriend at the time. The girlfriend wasn't coming.

It took a long time to decide what to do. I finally decided to leave my home, my way of life and I knew I wasn't going back. It was permanent.

So, I was 19, and I think we were having sex about 3 times a day. After I decided to move, and I'm telling you, I was back and forth on this thing for about 6 months, I became paranoid that now that I decided to leave, this would be when something went down.

She made no secret that she wanted kids. I became 'concerned' that as she was in charge of taking birth control, she could be in charge of my fate.

And I had finally come to terms that my fate involved my coming here.

So, I made a decision. I was 19 years old, and thoroughly enjoying some good times here(i'm gonna stop here as my gf reads this shit, and there is no need for people to know too much about this stuff, but she was a little older and knew how to work the equipment) I stopped. I was not ready to deal with that curve ball in life.

There was no way that she was going to intentionally get knocked up, but the point is, it could have happened by accident, or anyone of a thousand things.

I wasn't ready. I knew that if it happened, man it was going to be had..adoption and abortion were NOT on the menu.

Take some responsibility for the actions you take. There is no such thing as "accidentally getting pregnant" You did decide to fuck, yes? Fucking does actually have the ascribed purpose of making babies, yes? It can be done. I took the responsibility that at that time, I could not even afford the risk of it happening. At 19.

[Gridlock]

I respectfully decline to continue this dialogue.

I feel that by discussing it, we are no better than the old men who want to decide what women can do to their own bodies.

I just wanted to point out that I totally respect that decision. Also, and I think this is pretty awesome, that this has been a really mature conversation here.

I just wanted to say, I think there is a huge distinction between "the old men that want to make decisions" and "men being involved in the decisions"

I mean, that shit that went down in the states a few months ago where that girl was vilified as a slut and not a single woman was invited to participate was disgusting.

But I think to eliminate men from the discussion entirely is wrong too. There ARE things that can be done to mitigate some types of abortion that while still providing access, can work to stop some really horrific types-and I'm thinking the partial birth ban in the states, which if you can read the details of that procedure and not support that ban, god, I don't know how you can.

I think it does not matter if you are male or female, it matters that you are a human when discussing things like partial birth abortion, or selective abortion.

[7seven]

"I'm all for a woman's right to choose. Especially when it works out for me"

Oh no, I would support a females right to choose even if it didn't work out for me, but like with any decision, consultation and consideration should take place with all parties involved, both cases where with girlfriends at the time both on the pill, I just made it clear my stance on it but in the end told them it is ultimately their decision with the 51% vote so to speak. Obviously my preference would be abortion but if they chose routes of adoption or to keep it, I'd give them financial support and such, but made it clear don't expect any traditional family unit model or marriage crap from me.

[TheNewGirl]

But I think to eliminate men from the discussion entirely is wrong too. There ARE things that can be done to mitigate some types of abortion that while still providing access, can work to stop some really horrific types-and I'm thinking the partial birth ban in the states, which if you can read the details of that procedure and not support that ban, god, I don't know how you can.

I think it does not matter if you are male or female, it matters that you are a human when discussing things like partial birth abortion, or selective abortion.

Partial birth abortions ARE horrific. In BC they're only used in the cases of major health issues that either put the mother at health risk or render the fetus non viable and they're extrodinarily traumatic for the mother in either case. I have only ever met two people that I know of who have had to go through this and it fucked them up in ways you can not understand, as if discovering your baby to be has half a heart or is brain dead in the womb isn't fucked up enough.

In the states you know what they make you do? Carry your dead baby to term knowing it can't survive, feeling it survive off what is essentially the life support system your body is building for it and THEN push it out in full labor that rips apart your body, and god your heart because every contraction puts your baby closer to dead, with no comfort of having a baby to hold at the end. Just a funeral to plan. And you have to pay the hospital bills afterwards to boot - about $10,000 I understand for a vaginal birth, more for a C-section.

That's cruel. That's cruel beyond anything I can imagine. I don't know how anyone can survive that cause just thinking about having to go through it makes me kinda wanna put a gun in my mouth.

I believe personally that the increased access to Plan B (which you can get at a pharmacy with out prescription now) and early drug induced abortions that don't require any vacuum or surgery are GOOD THINGS. But to allow women access to these things in the early stages they need to 1. know they're pregnant, 2. have ready access to the information and services and 3. not be getting a lot of moral flack about it because other wise they delay because of guilt and shame.

I also believe in early birth control education and ready access to it for teenagers and even pre teens (because the stats on sexually active 12 - 14 years old would give you nightmares if you had children that age), especially girls. Girls who are educated about their choices and are confident about buying their own condoms and such rather then relying on some guy who really just wants to get it in them as fast as possible, are less likely to get knocked up or get STDs.

This is why I have never understood why anti abortionists aren't all for preventing pregnancy. But that's really it, if you want to prevent elective abortions, that's what you need to do.

Also guys - if you don't want kids, get yourself cut cause that's a whole lot less traumatic then an abortion and far more reversible.

[miss_crayon]

Take some responsibility for the actions you take. There is no such thing as "accidentally getting pregnant" You did decide to fuck, yes? Fucking does actually have the ascribed purpose of making babies, yes? It can be done. I took the responsibility that at that time, I could not even afford the risk of it happening. At 19.

I totally agree with you. And also with NewGirl's comment about the Plan B.

However, there are far too many youths in this day and age that abuse their ability to have sex. I don't know if it's because their parents/school aren't educating them enough about sex...but people just simply don't care nowadays. "Sex is just sex." Sex isn't about pregnancy, or STDs...it's just a few minutes of pleasure with no real consequences. :rukidding: yeah..no. Even at 25 I still get freaked out with the thought of having a child, and this is even with me protecting myself with BC's and everything!



I will say though, although Plan B can be seen as a "saviour" and can help in real emergencies (condom breaking etc)... a lot of people use it on the regular because they simply don't care enough about themselves to go on the pill or use condoms.

[TheNewGirl]

All the stats say the more you talk to your kids about the realities of sex (especially girls) the more likely they are to delay actual intercourse.

To do this properly though means dealing with some really uncomfortable conversations. Do you think anyone in their right mind wants to have the 'listen I know you have sexual desires, and I appreciate that, let me tell you about some lower risk activities you can do with your boyfriend' conversation with their teenaged daughters? It's horrible. Like genuinely horrible. But you know what's more horrible? Driving your 14 year old to an abortion clinic or a maternity ward.

As for chronic plan b use, it really is birth control as it prevents pregnancy, so what ever to people who chose to use it instead, I don't think there's any moral difference. But who in their right mind would do that? I have in all my years of being sexually active used it once and it was such a miserable experience, I don't know who in their right mind would chose to to it repeatedly.

[El Bastardo]

I'd say putting your 14 year old through the horror and trauma of an abortion is a great way to prevent future pregnancy. And not one here where there are no protesters, but out in the Fraser Valley where you run the chance of seeing anti-abortion rhetoric.

Parade your Junior High School-aged child in front of people foaming at the mouths, screaming words like "Sinner" and "Whore", then take them inside and let them have their body poked and prodded at, pieces of metal inserted into them to open their cervix, and a vacuum shoved deep inside to suck out the child to be, and then shoved out the door.

I guaran-goddamned-tee that'll keep your kid from having sex until at LEAST her mid 20s.

[Great68]

I'm sorry man. I'm just doing this to prove a point.

And that point is, you just proved mine.

"I'm all for a woman's right to choose. Especially when it works out for me"

I'm going to share a story here. When I was 19, I decided to move to BC to join my family that had already moved here . I had a girlfriend at the time. The girlfriend wasn't coming.

It took a long time to decide what to do. I finally decided to leave my home, my way of life and I knew I wasn't going back. It was permanent.

So, I was 19, and I think we were having sex about 3 times a day. After I decided to move, and I'm telling you, I was back and forth on this thing for about 6 months, I became paranoid that now that I decided to leave, this would be when something went down.

She made no secret that she wanted kids. I became 'concerned' that as she was in charge of taking birth control, she could be in charge of my fate.

And I had finally come to terms that my fate involved my coming here.

So, I made a decision. I was 19 years old, and thoroughly enjoying some good times here(i'm gonna stop here as my gf reads this shit, and there is no need for people to know too much about this stuff, but she was a little older and knew how to work the equipment) I stopped. I was not ready to deal with that curve ball in life.

There was no way that she was going to intentionally get knocked up, but the point is, it could have happened by accident, or anyone of a thousand things.

I wasn't ready. I knew that if it happened, man it was going to be had..adoption and abortion were NOT on the menu.

Take some responsibility for the actions you take. There is no such thing as "accidentally getting pregnant" You did decide to fuck, yes? Fucking does actually have the ascribed purpose of making babies, yes? It can be done. I took the responsibility that at that time, I could not even afford the risk of it happening. At 19.

That's a great story, but what you're kinda doing is passing judgement that everyone should consider the "responsibilities" of sex as deeply as you.

Some people just don't care as much as you do. Who's to tell them they should?

It's along the same plane as how the religo's think. The only thing that's different is that you're saying that even though someone may not think the same as you, they should still be able to do what they want.

[sonick]

Man, I often wonder how fathers with daughters keep their sanity. All the power to you, I'd be crazy with paranoia 24/7 of anybody with a penis if I had a daughter.

[miss_crayon]

All the stats say the more you talk to your kids about the realities of sex (especially girls) the more likely they are to delay actual intercourse.

To do this properly though means dealing with some really uncomfortable conversations. Do you think anyone in their right mind wants to have the 'listen I know you have sexual desires, and I appreciate that, let me tell you about some lower risk activities you can do with your boyfriend' conversation with their teenaged daughters? It's horrible. Like genuinely horrible. But you know what's more horrible? Driving your 14 year old to an abortion clinic or a maternity ward.

As for chronic plan b use, it really is birth control as it prevents pregnancy, so what ever to people who chose to use it instead, I don't think there's any moral difference. But who in their right mind would do that? I have in all my years of being sexually active used it once and it was such a miserable experience, I don't know who in their right mind would chose to to it repeatedly.

I absolutely agree. My mom gave me the talk when I was..12? She explained to me how sex works but in true Momma Crayon fashion...she instilled the idea that I'd be in deep shit if I had sex. I wasnt even allowed to date in HS because she didn't want me to have "relationships" and have it hurt my education. Now that I look back on it..I'm glad I listened. I think i could have been really stupid during those teen years.

Anyhow, even to this day it still makes me uncomfortable to have her know I am active but it worked. I was a "late bloomer" as some of you might say and didn't start having sex until I was out of highschool. Mentally I was more capable to wrap my head around the idea of sex and what can come out of it.

And for the Plan B, I've never used it once. Like you, I don't know how someone can use it more than once...but then agian..it probably wasn't "an accident" but more of a "I just don't want to use the pill cause I dont wanna get fat and my bf doesn't wanna use a condom..sooo...this is the best thing!"

[dinosaur]

I'm sorry man. I'm just doing this to prove a point.

And that point is, you just proved mine.

"I'm all for a woman's right to choose. Especially when it works out for me"

I'm going to share a story here. When I was 19, I decided to move to BC to join my family that had already moved here . I had a girlfriend at the time. The girlfriend wasn't coming.

It took a long time to decide what to do. I finally decided to leave my home, my way of life and I knew I wasn't going back. It was permanent.

So, I was 19, and I think we were having sex about 3 times a day. After I decided to move, and I'm telling you, I was back and forth on this thing for about 6 months, I became paranoid that now that I decided to leave, this would be when something went down.

She made no secret that she wanted kids. I became 'concerned' that as she was in charge of taking birth control, she could be in charge of my fate.

And I had finally come to terms that my fate involved my coming here.

So, I made a decision. I was 19 years old, and thoroughly enjoying some good times here(i'm gonna stop here as my gf reads this shit, and there is no need for people to know too much about this stuff, but she was a little older and knew how to work the equipment) I stopped. I was not ready to deal with that curve ball in life.

There was no way that she was going to intentionally get knocked up, but the point is, it could have happened by accident, or anyone of a thousand things.

I wasn't ready. I knew that if it happened, man it was going to be had..adoption and abortion were NOT on the menu.

Take some responsibility for the actions you take. There is no such thing as "accidentally getting pregnant" You did decide to fuck, yes? Fucking does actually have the ascribed purpose of making babies, yes? It can be done. I took the responsibility that at that time, I could not even afford the risk of it happening. At 19.

:squint:






also....i want to date 19 yo Grid! fucking 3 times a day?! where the fuck is THAT guy!?

[StylinRed]

:squint:






also....i want to date 19 yo Grid! fucking 3 times a day?! where the fuck is THAT guy!?

you killed him ;)

http://fotos.subefotos.com/92288359bef975ddec52655fbdb62097o.gif

[stylez2k4]

"Abortion should not only be safe and legal, it should be rare." - BILL CLINTON, speech at DNC, Aug. 29, 1996


Best stance

[freakshow]

That's a great story, but what you're kinda doing is passing judgement that everyone should consider the "responsibilities" of sex as deeply as you.

Some people just don't care as much as you do. Who's to tell them they should?

It's along the same plane as how the religo's think. The only thing that's different is that you're saying that even though someone may not think the same as you, they should still be able to do what they want.

wait.. so he thinks that everyone should think the way he thinks (be responsible for sex), and you think that everyone should think the way you think (free choice for that responsibility), and all of a sudden you're criticizing him because he thinks like a 'religo'?

Your stance might appear to be more benign, but it isn't. Sorry buddy, you just convicted yourself.

[some_punk]

if a pregnant lady can't use the HOV lane, isn't that enough proof that abortion isn't murder?

[SkinnyPupp]

:squint:






also....i want to date 19 yo Grid! fucking 3 times a day?! where the fuck is THAT guy!?
http://i.imgur.com/Uvb6H.gif

[LiquidTurbo]

if a pregnant lady can't use the HOV lane, isn't that enough proof that abortion isn't murder?

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/085/283/philosoraptor.jpg?1291090164

[jasonturbo]

http://touchingharmstheart.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/layman_hang.jpg
http://images.productwiki.com/upload/images/dewalt_dc730ka_14_4volt_cordless_drill-400-400.jpg

Just sayin...

But seriously, this debate needs to die already, let the women decide and keep your religious hang-ups to yourself.

[Great68]

wait.. so he thinks that everyone should think the way he thinks (be responsible for sex), and you think that everyone should think the way you think (free choice for that responsibility), and all of a sudden you're criticizing him because he thinks like a 'religo'?

Your stance might appear to be more benign, but it isn't. Sorry buddy, you just convicted yourself.

The funny thing is that you're making an assumption as to how I actually think on the matter when all I was doing was simply presenting the flip side of the coin.

[drunkrussian]

Oh no, I would support a females right to choose even if it didn't work out for me, but like with any decision, consultation and consideration should take place with all parties involved, both cases where with girlfriends at the time both on the pill, I just made it clear my stance on it but in the end told them it is ultimately their decision with the 51% vote so to speak. Obviously my preference would be abortion but if they chose routes of adoption or to keep it, I'd give them financial support and such, but made it clear don't expect any traditional family unit model or marriage crap from me.

this is my stance too. the woman is pregnant and has to deal with it in a way i could never imagine, the least i could do is give her the right to choose for herself. id hope she would bring me into the discussion but at the end of the day if she gets rid of it a life is lost but if she doesnt grt rid of it but wishes she did, two are lost