[Death2Theft]

Here is your chance to do something about it.
Smart Meters and Vancouver Council – Important Message from Citizens for Safe Technology



Please plan on coming to the Vancouver City Council meeting Tuesday, May 1 at 9:30 am, waving our yellow signs. The signs will be handed out before the meeting at 9.30 am (try to be at City Hall by 9 am)

This is an important meeting and we only have one shot at this so please come out and support Adriane Carr who will be making a motion to council asking for a personal opt out re. smart meters. Many of the Councillors are still not on side, so we need a strong turnout.


**Attached is a letter that people can complete and deliver or mail to the Mayor and Council. Alternately

or additionally, you may choose to write your own.


Letters to: Mayor and Council
Vancouver City Hall
453 W. 12th Avenue
Vancouver, BC
V5Y 1V4


And/or email: mayorandcouncil@vancouver.ca

( on or before May 1st. Keep them coming even after that date, but we want the bulk of the messages to be in by May 1st. )

Vancouver City Mayor and Councillors : Phone and Email Info:

Mayor Gregor Robertson: gregor.robertson@vancouver.ca 604-873-7621


* Emails to the individual concillors is even more effective:

George Affleck: clraffleck@vancouver.ca 873-7248
Elizabeth Ball: clrball@vancouver.ca 873-7240
Adrienne Carr clrcarr@vancouver.ca 873-7244
Heather Deal clrdeal@vancouver.ca 873-7242
Kerry Jang clrjang@vancouver.ca 873-7246
Raymond Louie clrlouie@vancouver.ca 873-7243
Geoff Meggs clrmeggs@vancouver.ca 873-7249
Andrea Reimer clrreimer@vancouver.ca 873-7241
Tim Stevenson clrstevenson@vancouver.ca 873-7247
Tony Tang clrtang@vancouver.ca 873-7244

You can contact me for details on how to register as a delegation for the second meeting on Wednesday May 2nd (time to be confirmed) when the actual vote will take place. Again, this is an important meeting and we need as many people as possible to show up to help influence the Mayor and Council to do the right thing!


Please forward to this to your friends and other contacts and let's get a hundred people to show up!



Thanks,


Andrea Collins acollins2@shaw.ca

https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?ui=2&ik=fb39bcd970&view=att&th=136ec38cf73d3d02&attid=0.1&disp=safe&realattid=1908e2574a418593_0.1&zw

[SkinnyPupp]

Please don't encourage stupidity

[Excelsis]

CONSPIRACY






















:troll:

[Death2Theft]

Yes your right to have a choice is pretty stupid.

[Manic!]

Yes your right to have a choice is pretty stupid.

Yes when the other choice is going backwards and making more work fore BC Hydro (more work more cost). I guess you still want the choice to be able by a new 4 buy 3 CRT TV, leaded gas from your local gas station or a new stove that still uses fuses.

[b0unce. [?]]

lol u noob

[El Bastardo]

Ok, I'll ask:

"Whats the problem with smart meters?"

[KingDeeCee]

Smart Meters Are Not a Killer Fascist Conspiracy v1.1 - YouTube

[El Bastardo]

As entertaining as the video is, it doesn't exactly explain WHY theres a problem with the smart meters. It just seems as if people don't want to jump from analog to digital technology. Theres lots of pseudo-science being thrown around, and a load of assumptions about what could or couldn't happen when smart meters have been installed.

Death2Theft, back up your activism. Convince me why smart meters are bad.

[SkinnyPupp]

As entertaining as the video is, it doesn't exactly explain WHY theres a problem with the smart meters.
Because there isn't
It just seems as if people don't want to jump from analog to digital technology. Theres lots of pseudo-science being thrown around, and a load of assumptions about what could or couldn't happen when smart meters have been installed.

Exactly. It is the difference between ignorance and stupidity. Ignorant people will seek knowledge and try to understand if something is good or bad. Stupid people... well just look at the OP's posts.

[wstce92]

As entertaining as the video is, it doesn't exactly explain WHY theres a problem with the smart meters. It just seems as if people don't want to jump from analog to digital technology. Theres lots of pseudo-science being thrown around, and a load of assumptions about what could or couldn't happen when smart meters have been installed.

Death2Theft, back up your activism. Convince me why smart meters are bad.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as of currently, BC Hydro can't check your meter every month?
So a lot of the time, they bill you according to patterns?
So many a time, people will get billed for a underestimate of their usage?
Now they'll get billed exactly what they use?

[Excelsis]

best explanation i could find

Smart Meters - YouTube

[El Bastardo]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as of currently, BC Hydro can't check your meter every month?
So a lot of the time, they bill you according to patterns?
So many a time, people will get billed for a underestimate of their usage?
Now they'll get billed exactly what they use?



No. They physically dispatch someone to read your meter every month (or make an educated estimate if you live in a rural area) and a guy in a truck with binoculars writes down the reading on a sheet of paper, then takes it back to the dispatch office and enters it in a computer.

They have hundreds of these guys doing this every (week) day.

Sometimes they read incorrectly, but they get it right most of the time.


This will serve to streamline the process and save some money in the short term. Then when they figure out peak usage they can adjust how much they bill per month based on peak times (as mentioned in the video)

[RouRK]

The reason smart meters are stupid is PEAK HOUR BILLING.

ya ya its not going to be implemented as of right now, if the technology is in place for this to happen IT WILL HAPPEN.

no smart meters = no chance of peak hour billing.
take your pick, raise prices or implement peak hour billing you say... I will take the raised prices, and before you charge me more look inside to how your fucked up public company works.
nuff said FUCK THE SMART METERS.

[SkinnyPupp]

The reason smart meters are stupid is PEAK HOUR BILLING.

ya ya its not going to be implemented as of right now, if the technology is in place for this to happen IT WILL HAPPEN.

no smart meters = no chance of peak hour billing.
take your pick raise cost or implement peak hour billing you say... I will take the raised cost, and before you charge me more look inside to how your fucked up public company works.
nuff said FUCK THE SMART METERS.
If that's your argument, FINE. That is perfectly valid.

The problem I have is when people make shit up to make smart meters sound bad, like they cause radiation and shit like that.

[bcrdukes]

You have a point.

As a Crown Corporation, they net some huge profits over the past few years (if not more) and those profits turned into big fat cash bonuses to their executives on top of their already lucrative salaries. All of the information is available in their annual reports on the BC Hydro website.

On the flip side, the same can be said about ICBC but to be fair, they find some way to put profits back into the system through lower insurance rates. But that in itself is another laughing matter. :\ Any way, I'm derailing the thread. Carry on.

[Lomac]

If that's your argument, FINE. That is perfectly valid.

The problem I have is when people make shit up to make smart meters sound bad, like they cause radiation and shit like that.

But ever since my smart meter was installed, I've grown an extra head AND two more toes on my left foot! You can't tell me this wasn't because of the new device!

[hk20000]

I have shown a house in South Granville and the Eastern European lady with her realtor was asking me with a serious face "won't that affect pace makers and old people and small children? Where should I move to if I don't want a smart meter?"

Both her realtor and myself did an imaginary facepalm.

Pretty sure my cellphone emits more 3G electromagnetic wave signal than that meter....

I hear they can save a lot of labour because if it works they should not have to send people (i.e. paying people) to read meters at each cycle... I'm all for automation for these monotonous and uninspiring work (that saves us money overall).

[Great68]

I think the automated consumption and fault reporting of the smart meters is great, about damn time.

What I'm not too happy about is the fact that they can trend your usage, which can be used to call authorites on "suspicious use" and stuff.

Does anyone remember the guy in Mission that had the police raid his place because his high power consumption led them to believe he was growing pot, when all he was doing was Bitcoin mining???
And then they made him pay a $5200 "inspection fee" WHEN THEY DIDN'T FIND ANYTHING WRONG!!!

[Lomac]

I think the automated consumption and fault reporting of the smart meters is great, about damn time.

What I'm not too happy about is the fact that they can trend your usage, which can be used to call authorites on "suspicious use" and stuff.

Does anyone remember the guy in Mission that had the police raid his place because his high power consumption led them to believe he was growing pot, when all he was doing was Bitcoin mining???
And then they made him pay a $5200 "inspection fee" WHEN THEY DIDN'T FIND ANYTHING WRONG!!!

That's happened quite a few times now in Mission (well, apart from the Bitcoin mining, of course lol). Mission's council is completely fucked up right now, so it's not really surprising it happened there.

[El Bastardo]

At least he was saving his money heating his home by bitcoin mining. :awesom:

[surreyjack604]

If that's your argument, FINE. That is perfectly valid.

The problem I have is when people make shit up to make smart meters sound bad, like they cause radiation and shit like that.

Nobody made up anything tand BTW they dont cause radiation they emit radiation.

[Excelsis]

lol i don't think you see how :fulloffuck: your comment is

[surreyjack604]

The reason smart meters are stupid is PEAK HOUR BILLING.

ya ya its not going to be implemented as of right now, if the technology is in place for this to happen IT WILL HAPPEN.

no smart meters = no chance of peak hour billing.
take your pick, raise prices or implement peak hour billing you say... I will take the raised prices, and before you charge me more look inside to how your fucked up public company works.
nuff said FUCK THE SMART METERS.

This. People in this thread who think smart meters will save "us" money are idiots. You think they spent a billion dollars to save us money? No. They are going to rape us down the line.

[Manic!]

This. People in this thread who think smart meters will save "us" money are idiots. You think they spent a billion dollars to save us money? No. They are going to rape us down the line.

Because you have 3 illegal suites in your house?

[Manic!]

The reason smart meters are stupid is PEAK HOUR BILLING.

ya ya its not going to be implemented as of right now, if the technology is in place for this to happen IT WILL HAPPEN.

no smart meters = no chance of peak hour billing.
take your pick, raise prices or implement peak hour billing you say... I will take the raised prices, and before you charge me more look inside to how your fucked up public company works.
nuff said FUCK THE SMART METERS.

Just buy a bunch of batteries and charge them on off peak hours.
:awwyeah:

[Great68]

The reason smart meters are stupid is PEAK HOUR BILLING.

ya ya its not going to be implemented as of right now, if the technology is in place for this to happen IT WILL HAPPEN.

no smart meters = no chance of peak hour billing.
take your pick, raise prices or implement peak hour billing you say... I will take the raised prices, and before you charge me more look inside to how your fucked up public company works.
nuff said FUCK THE SMART METERS.

Yeah, peak hour billing is a bit of a money grab in BC.

In BC, where the majority of our power comes from hydroelectric dams the "fuel" (falling water) is practically free. The cost difference between running one generator at a dam versus ten is relatively small. And don't believe the whole "net importer" bullshit, we have TONS of spare capacity if we need it. Burrard Thermal is a 1GW station that basically goes completely unused.

Peak billing makes sense in the US where they have a lot of coal and gas, because their fuel is bloody expensive.

[SkinnyPupp]

Of course the alternative to peak hour billing would be more expensive overall billing for everyong. Wouldn't that be awesome? That way, instead of adjusting your power consumption to save money, you just pay more! :awwyeah:

And BC already has among the cheapest power in the world. They always will.

This. People in this thread who think smart meters will save "us" money are idiots. You think they spent a billion dollars to save us money? No. They are going to rape us down the line.

Again, if you want to argue against the idea of peak billing, that is fine. I disagree, but at least you aren't making a complete idiot out of yourself with all the "radiation" speak and conspiracy theories.

[Great68]

Of course the alternative to peak hour billing would be more expensive overall billing for everyong. Wouldn't that be awesome? That way, instead of adjusting your power consumption to save money, you just pay more! :awwyeah:

And BC already has among the cheapest power in the world. They always will.


Like I said, there's not a whole lot of reason for power during "Peak" times to be significantly more expensive than "off peak" times here in BC.

[surreyjack604]

Of course the alternative to peak hour billing would be more expensive overall billing for everyong. Wouldn't that be awesome? That way, instead of adjusting your power consumption to save money, you just pay more! :awwyeah:

And BC already has among the cheapest power in the world. They always will.



Again, if you want to argue against the idea of peak billing, that is fine. I disagree, but at least you aren't making a complete idiot out of yourself with all the "radiation" speak and conspiracy theories.

I hate dumb asses like you. I don't get how anybody can be considered an idiot when its a fact they emit radiation. People have a reason to be worried. When they implement peak hour billing I'm assuming they will go from only being on a few minutes a day to all day long?? You will be exposed to the waves all day long and they will be everywhere...

I don't know what these will do to our health in the future but honestly you're just a big of an idiot as you make the conspiracy theorists out to be because we're just now being exposed to these.

I remember when they used to say cell phones didn't cause brain cancer but now even the World Health Organization admits it ...Idiots like you probably would have had the same stance you do now.

[SkinnyPupp]

Like I said, there's not a whole lot of reason for power during "Peak" times to be significantly more expensive than "off peak" times here in BC.
Yup that probably explains why BC Hydro has never even said they are considering it. People are just dumb, and will come up with any bullshit reason to go against something... Which they have the right to do, but when they go against stupid shit like this, and not stuff that actually matters, my brain goes :fulloffuck:

[Excelsis]

request to change thread into basic conspiracy thread

[Great68]

Yup that probably explains why BC Hydro has never even said they are considering it. People are just dumb, and will come up with any bullshit reason to go against something... Which they have the right to do, but when they go against stupid shit like this, and not stuff that actually matters, my brain goes :fulloffuck:

Yeah, I'm don't hate on the smart meters themselves because they simply have the ability track peak billing.

If they ever did go to Peak billing I'd put my hate on Hydro itself, and the government for letting them do it.

Although I take Hydro's current denial about Peak billing with a bit of skepticism. I wouldn't trust them to not change their mind about something like that in the future.

[Lomac]

I hate dumb asses like you. I don't get how anybody can be considered an idiot when its a fact they emit radiation. People have a reason to be worried. When they implement peak hour billing I'm assuming they will go from only being on a few minutes a day to all day long?? You will be exposed to the waves all day long and they will be everywhere...

I don't know what these will do to our health in the future but honestly you're just a big of an idiot as you make the conspiracy theorists out to be because we're just now being exposed to these.

I remember when they used to say cell phones didn't cause brain cancer but now even the World Health Organization admits it ...Idiots like you probably would have had the same stance you do now.

Even if they switch to peak billing hours, the meters wont be broadcasting all day. It will simply keep track as to what your power consumption between x and Y times are and will transmit that information when the meter maid drives by. And, really... a two minute broadcast isn't going to do anything to your body.

Do you own a cellphone? Wireless home phones? How about a wireless router? Do you live near any transmission towers? Do you use a microwave? Hell, do you gamble? There's RF trackers in high value chips. My point is there are far many more objects out there that either use RF, some type of wireless pulse, or are simply much more "dangerous" to a human on a much more continuous basis that to worry about smart meters is simply inane.

[Excelsis]

^ lol didn't realize his name until you quoted him

surreyjack604 :troll:

[El Bastardo]

I remember when they used to say cell phones didn't cause brain cancer but now even the World Health Organization admits it


Not technically true.

WHO: Cell phone use can increase possible cancer risk - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/05/31/who.cell.phones/index.html)

They found evidence of an increase in risk.. but the millions of cellphone users out there aren't finding tumours bulging out of their head.

[surreyjack604]

Not technically true.

WHO: Cell phone use can increase possible cancer risk - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/05/31/who.cell.phones/index.html)

They found evidence of an increase in risk.. but the millions of cellphone users out there aren't finding tumours bulging out of their head.

My point was that when cell phones first came out they said there was no risk.

[El Bastardo]

But in the 25 or so years that we've had cellular networks they've refined the technology to properly utilize it in things like smart meters.

Its not like the smart meters will operate on Cold War-era mobile phone technology.

They'll transmit for 10-30 seconds (approx) once a day on an advanced band.


Hell, watching your Pizza Pop spin in the microwave is probably worse for you.

[rsx]

What about chem trails though guys!:suspicious:

[SkinnyPupp]

Even if they switch to peak billing hours, the meters wont be broadcasting all day. It will simply keep track as to what your power consumption between x and Y times are and will transmit that information when the meter maid drives by. And, really... a two minute broadcast isn't going to do anything to your body.

Do you own a cellphone? Wireless home phones? How about a wireless router? Do you live near any transmission towers? Do you use a microwave? Hell, do you gamble? There's RF trackers in high value chips. My point is there are far many more objects out there that either use RF, some type of wireless pulse, or are simply much more "dangerous" to a human on a much more continuous basis that to worry about smart meters is simply inane.

You can add "do you live on earth" and "do you go outside" to the list of things that expose you to radiation.

[SkinnyPupp]

My point was that when cell phones first came out they said there was no risk.

No they didn't, they said they weren't sure, and most likely there wasn't. And now we know there wasn't.

[Graeme S]

Not sure if anyone's remembered, but the truly harmful type of radiation is ionizing radiation. Cellphones, smartmeters and other things of that sort emit non-ionizing radiation. It's true, the WHO has now added it to their list of "Stuff we may now think possibly could have some link to cancer in some way if we do a lot more research over several more decades", but it is still infinitely less powerful than...uh...sleeping next to your SO.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/blag/radiation.png

[bballguy]

Because you have 3 illegal suites in your house?

LMFAO DAT SURREY JACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[PiuYi]

Yeah, peak hour billing is a bit of a money grab in BC.

In BC, where the majority of our power comes from hydroelectric dams the "fuel" (falling water) is practically free. The cost difference between running one generator at a dam versus ten is relatively small. And don't believe the whole "net importer" bullshit, we have TONS of spare capacity if we need it. Burrard Thermal is a 1GW station that basically goes completely unused.

Peak billing makes sense in the US where they have a lot of coal and gas, because their fuel is bloody expensive.

wait, i'm not understanding whats bad about peak hour billing..

i thought they only need to build as many dams/generators to produce the power needed during peak hours, so if people spread out their usage through the day, the peak will be less and less dams/generators needed, so that's a save on infrastructure, no?

[Teh Doucher]

My point was that when cell phones first came out they said there was no risk.

please do us all a favor and constantly keep your cell phone by your balls. k. thx.

[surreyjack604]

please do us all a favor and constantly keep your cell phone by your balls. k. thx.

irony of the joke is you probably keep your phone in your pocket

[Manic!]

I remember when they used to say cell phones didn't cause brain cancer but now even the World Health Organization admits it ...Idiots like you probably would have had the same stance you do now.

Still no risk:
BBC News - Mobile phones: 'Still no evidence of harm to health' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-17843953)

[Death2Theft]

I could care less if there are any problems with smart meters or not. It's the fact that we never got the ability to chose. Next thing you know they will ban turbos because they use too much gas and are bad for the enviroment, and you wont get to vote on that either.

The fact that it cost them 1 billion dollars for the meters, yet it's supposed to save you more money in the long run is the greatest scam/sales pitch people are sold. I'll be damned if the cost of those meters arn't recouped, by gouging the customers but by that time it will be too late.

[SkinnyPupp]

Why the fucking fuck would you get to vote for or against using digital meters instead of analog?

[sebTeggy]

If you don't want to feel like you are 'monitored' then cancel your electricity and generate it yourself. Otherwise, buy a wind turbine and make your own.

All these people feeling like 'big brother' is watching. Honestly, if you are not growing pot, then stop worrying. Its not like they are putting cameras up inside your house and watching you surf youporn...

Nobody complains about the internet company (telus/shaw) knowing what you are browsing.

People complaining about their energy consumption are probably going on facebook and revealing personal pictures and information blatantly. I thought our generation gave zero fucks when it came to privacy....

[604nguyen]

yeah ive noticed my hydro bill go up substantially
my power usage has been consistant this whole year
and all of the sudden my billl decides to DOUBLE on me this current invoice
i dont know why i got charged for so much more kWH.....:fulloffuck:

my dec-feb invoice was $150
my mar-apr invoice is $380????
one would assume that the chance of using more electricity would be in the winter months......
i ONLY turn on heat during the winter months i ONLY my heat in my bedroom....

how did i get charged for even more on months i didint use heat?!?!?!

[Great68]

wait, i'm not understanding whats bad about peak hour billing..

i thought they only need to build as many dams/generators to produce the power needed during peak hours, so if people spread out their usage through the day, the peak will be less and less dams/generators needed, so that's a save on infrastructure, no?

Except that BC has more than enough generation infrastructure to handle its peak demands now, and for some time in the future.

It's not like they're going to deconstruct what they've already built.

When my buddy gave me the tour of the GMS (bennet dam) station a few summers ago, I think all they needed to have running at the time was two generators out of ten.

[Acuracura]

Everyone's electricity usage is already public information. Police do not need a warrant to obtain the details from BC Hydro. Implementing the smart meters will not cause you to lose privacy that you never really had.

[iPee]

off topic but what exactly is bitcoin mining did a search but still don't understand it

[Great68]

off topic but what exactly is bitcoin mining did a search but still don't understand it

Basically using sharing your CPU/GPU processing cycles for virtual currency in return.

Kind of like Seti@home or folding@home but getting paid for it.

[Great68]

Everyone's electricity usage is already public information. Police do not need a warrant to obtain the details from BC Hydro. Implementing the smart meters will not cause you to lose privacy that you never really had.

Not really true.

I worked on the energy management & control system for a large resi/commercial development here in Victoria. The developer wanted tenants to have the ability to view their electrical consumption on the interface in their suite.

At first BC Hydro said "No way" because it would mean building operators had the ability to view individual tenant consumption in the building, which was a breach of their privacy policies.

After jumping through about a million hoops we eventually came to a compromise that tenants would have to agree to a "terms & conditions" outlining that 3rd parties would have the ability to view their electrical consumption data before the function was enabled.

BC Hydro takes privacy very seriously.

[Avery]

First off.. I will say that i am an electrician

What people do not realize about their old meter. Is that they are 25+ years old and mechanical which starts to slow down after time , which actually works out in your favor , with your new meter you are being billed correctly ( most likely )

and secondly ... everyone is freaking out about these smart meters. i have heard some pretty intense people loose their mind about these and the "Radiation". You'll certainly die early from stressing out over things like this, than the "Radiation"

suck it up and just live with change

** Also BC hydro is a company , in which you pay for its service,
it is not a right to have power ....it is a privilege

[RouRK]

Why doesn't anyone look at it this way... if your opposed to something fight it any way you can...

if you think the smart meter is just a way of price gauging and fucking people later, fight it... how do you make a case out of "i think you will ass rape your customers down the line by installing these meters and charging us for peak hour billing"

you can't.

but what you could do is say they are a invasion of privacy they are a health risk they are they will end the world. This is a easy way to make a case.

i don't think that they are going to kill me or they are that bad but i do respect the people standing up for our rights and i know i will be ass raped down the line.

and as for peak hour billing making it easier on the infrastructure, then why the fuck did they just try to rape me for a 30% increase over 3 years to "rebuild infrastructure" so when they implement peak hour billing saying it will be better for the infrastructure and the grid... why the fuck do you need to take it easy on the upgraded grid when you raped me for that 16% rate hike to rebuild it. (they got told they are not getting the 30% increase they asked for and have to settle with ass raping us only 16%)

the differed debt in hydro is sickening, the over staffing, the huge salaries, the bonuses the employees get for a failing company.

BC HYDRO is a failing company
Fuck Hydro and FUCK ICBC. we need competition

[goo3]

Except that BC has more than enough generation infrastructure to handle its peak demands now, and for some time in the future.

It's not like they're going to deconstruct what they've already built.

When my buddy gave me the tour of the GMS (bennet dam) station a few summers ago, I think all they needed to have running at the time was two generators out of ten.

Can you explain this from bchydro.com:


Since the late 1990s, BC Hydro has depended on electricity imports to meet the demand for power. The Province has established a goal of achieving electricity self-sufficiency by 2016 — meaning that BC Hydro must be able to supply British Columbia’s electricity needs through domestic sources of power.

Another thing to consider is any excess electricity from conservation can be exported at market rates, which may or may not be an overall benefit to taxpayers.

[Death2Theft]

Just like enron, bchydro and icbc are government monopolies. Do your part in trying to change the system or enjoy the ass raping and dont bitch about it.

[Death2Theft]

Ever heard of data over power? They do have that ability to spy on you watching porn. Not that I care, it's more about the ability to chose.
If you don't want to feel like you are 'monitored' then cancel your electricity and generate it yourself. Otherwise, buy a wind turbine and make your own.

All these people feeling like 'big brother' is watching. Honestly, if you are not growing pot, then stop worrying. Its not like they are putting cameras up inside your house and watching you surf youporn...

Nobody complains about the internet company (telus/shaw) knowing what you are browsing.

People complaining about their energy consumption are probably going on facebook and revealing personal pictures and information blatantly. I thought our generation gave zero fucks when it came to privacy....

[Soundy]

What I'm not too happy about is the fact that they can trend your usage, which can be used to call authorites on "suspicious use" and stuff.

Does anyone remember the guy in Mission that had the police raid his place because his high power consumption led them to believe he was growing pot, when all he was doing was Bitcoin mining???
And then they made him pay a $5200 "inspection fee" WHEN THEY DIDN'T FIND ANYTHING WRONG!!!
And all that happened WITHOUT Smart Meters.

[Soundy]

but what you could do is say they are a invasion of privacy they are a health risk they are they will end the world. This is a easy way to make a case.
Yes... then you're making the case that you're a raving lunatic and nobody will take you seriously, just like with Death2Theft. Fight the good fight! Spew alarmist bullshit! That will really get people to believe you!

[UFO]

yeah ive noticed my hydro bill go up substantially
my power usage has been consistant this whole year
and all of the sudden my billl decides to DOUBLE on me this current invoice
i dont know why i got charged for so much more kWH.....:fulloffuck:

my dec-feb invoice was $150
my mar-apr invoice is $380????
one would assume that the chance of using more electricity would be in the winter months......
i ONLY turn on heat during the winter months i ONLY my heat in my bedroom....

how did i get charged for even more on months i didint use heat?!?!?!

I think your mar-apr bill is paying for overusage in Jan-Feb, when it was actually cold. Whether it was enough to double up on your usage, who knows.

We just got the meters installed in our building, so we'll be keeping an eye on consumption and bills just to make sure.

[604nguyen]

I think your mar-apr bill is paying for overusage in Jan-Feb, when it was actually cold. Whether it was enough to double up on your usage, who knows.

We just got the meters installed in our building, so we'll be keeping an eye on consumption and bills just to make sure.

I'd like to think so, but i really dont think thats the case, compared to my avg usage last year....theres no way there is THAT big of a spike in usage... it just doesnt make any sense....he difference in usuage is astronomical.....my power consumption in the past has been very consistant ...even in winter...im a cheapass...i dont turn my heat on...except in my bedroom when i goto bed


I asked a friend of mine if he noticed anything funny on his bills...he said not on his personally....but other people in his comlex have received some unusually high bills recently as well...They called BC Hydo, but they wont do shit for them unless more people in the complex makes complaints.....best bring it up to your strata council..

ive tried calling BC Hydro myself....Hold times are over 1 hour.....:seriously:

[dark0821]

First off.. I will say that i am an electrician

What people do not realize about their old meter. Is that they are 25+ years old and mechanical which starts to slow down after time , which actually works out in your favor , with your new meter you are being billed correctly ( most likely )

and secondly ... everyone is freaking out about these smart meters. i have heard some pretty intense people loose their mind about these and the "Radiation". You'll certainly die early from stressing out over things like this, than the "Radiation"

suck it up and just live with change

** Also BC hydro is a company , in which you pay for its service,
it is not a right to have power ....it is a privilege

Not to hold you personally but I think you explain the point very accurately. Still we constantly hear news stories how people have their bill doubled or more since the installation of the "smart meters" will the old meter be thaaaaaaaat inaccurate that it's actually only reading half of the residents are actually using?

You have to understand that their bill doubled even without the peak hour billing. And most residents are concerned. Me and my parents lives in an apartment so honestly doubling our bill isn't that much of a financial strain, but who wouldn't want an extra few bucks in our pocket... Especially as most citizens feel like that BChydro isn't exactly doing badly with the profits even with the old meters.

But think about if you own a house and your winter bills comes in around 400 to 450 a month... Can you imagine paying up to 900 a month just for electricity?! Off course they will be pissed...

Not saying I am against the whole smart meter shit... And I don't believe the radiation crap... But I do believe the whole against smart meter thing has some creditable reasons...

My 0.02

[Great68]

Can you explain this from bchydro.com:



Basically, from the horse's mouth (My friend who actually works in Hydro Generation) is that statement is a pile of bullshit.


Another thing to consider is any excess electricity from conservation can be exported at market rates, which may or may not be an overall benefit to taxpayers.

Yeah, that would remain to be seen. I wouldn't hold my breath in hopes that it would benefit us at all though. I don't think California ever paid us back for all the power we sold them during their last energy crisis.

[Excelsis]

I think this thread should be turned into General Conspiracy Theories thread as we could discuss other things rather than just this smart meter.

So, what do you guys think of the London olympic games conspiracy?

[UFO]

I'd like to think so, but i really dont think thats the case, compared to my avg usage last year....theres no way there is THAT big of a spike in usage... it just doesnt make any sense....he difference in usuage is astronomical.....my power consumption in the past has been very consistant ...even in winter...im a cheapass...i dont turn my heat on...except in my bedroom when i goto bed


Yeah, I've heard of these cases as well especially earlier this year around Feb when people's bills spiked. BC Hydro says its due to cold temps, but for consumption to double in some cases triple over the same period from the year before seems very unreasonable.

Now if the old analog meters were inaccurate, or the human reporting on the old meters was inaccurate, leading to undercharging for who knows how long, then that's a different story. But once again you wouldn't expect reporting errors and undercharges to happen consistently every billing cycle

[quasi]

If you use a cellphone ever the radiation argument is laughable. One of the reason that many people are seeing increases is because their old meters were inaccurate. It's already been said but there old meters were showing less consumption then was actually being used. The people in that situation should consider themselves lucky that they've been getting a break on there bills for who knows how long. Now that the new meters are reading correctly there like WTF is this shit. This shit what you should have been paying for X amount of time but weren't because your old meter was essentially broken.

[HonestTea]

My bad for bumping an old thread. So I just got a notice from BC Hydro that they'll be installing Smart Meters in the next couple of weeks. Our family doesn't want the Smart Meters installed.

Can we just call in and tell them no or what's the method in doing so?

Thanks!

[Soundy]

Suck it up, princess.

[MindBomber]

Smart meters are not an option you can opt out of.

If you do not want a smart meter the only method to avoid it is disconnecting your service and installing a wind turbine.

Take off your tinfoil hat, and use your brain. There's no compelling reason for your family to not have a smart meter installed.

[Tapioca]

Smart meters are not an option you can opt out of.

If you do not want a smart meter the only method to avoid it is disconnecting your service and installing a wind turbine.

Take off your tinfoil hat, and use your brain. There's no compelling reason for your family to not have a smart meter installed.

Sure there is: that family doesn't want to pay a proper price for its power consumption.

[melloman]

If you do not want a smart meter the only method to avoid it is disconnecting your service and installing a wind turbine.

I don't think a wind turbine would work too well in Vancouver :troll:

[MindBomber]

I don't think a wind turbine would work too well in Vancouver :troll:

It would work better than a solar panel :fullofwin:

[Soundy]

I don't think a wind turbine would work too well in Vancouver :troll:

Solar panels, then?

Oh, wait...

[RouRK]

My bad for bumping an old thread. So I just got a notice from BC Hydro that they'll be installing Smart Meters in the next couple of weeks. Our family doesn't want the Smart Meters installed.

Can we just call in and tell them no or what's the method in doing so?

Thanks!

put a note where your meters is

[tonyzoomzoom]

so why is it that your family do not want the smart meter installed?

[Soundy]

put a note where your meters is

Yeah, that's like a cross to a vampire, it'll scare the livin' shit out of the installer and send him running screaming back to his momma.

[MindBomber]

put a note where your meters is

Yes, because BCHydro will indefinitely acknowledge notes and continue to send out a meter reader to your house because you're "special"

"special" like the kid who was a little slow in school..

[Soundy]

Yes, because BCHydro will indefinitely acknowledge notes and continue to send out a meter reader to your house because your "special"

"special" like the kid who was a little slow in school..

Helmet special. Short-bus special. Special in an Olympic way.

sPeShUl

[RouRK]

Yes, because BCHydro will indefinitely acknowledge notes and continue to send out a meter reader to your house because you're "special"

"special" like the kid who was a little slow in school..

http://langleytoday.ca/?p=11605

We posted the suggested notices beside our current Hydro meter and will now await developments. When the BC Hydro installer arrives he or she will be met by the notices we posted and will, according to Hydro, not install a Smart Meter on our home.

[Soundy]

Issues: You Can Refuse Your Smart Meter | Langley Today (http://langleytoday.ca/?p=11605)

We posted the suggested notices beside our current Hydro meter and will now await developments. When the BC Hydro installer arrives he or she will be met by the notices we posted and will, according to Hydro, not install a Smart Meter on our home.

Yeah, read the next paragraph:

"The nice lady on the phone did explain that, despite our exercise of our rights, we would eventually be forced to allow the intrusion since Hydro has declared the installations mandatory."

I'm just waiting for Hydro to exercise their right to tell you "no smart meter, no power", since there's nothing that guarantees everyone the "right" to electricity delivery.

[yray]

anyone know if smart meters have any interference with the telephone box outside of our houses?

[Soundy]

Of course they don't. They're a fraction of the output power of a cell phone, cordless phone, or wifi router.

[RouRK]

Yeah, read the next paragraph:

"The nice lady on the phone did explain that, despite our exercise of our rights, we would eventually be forced to allow the intrusion since Hydro has declared the installations mandatory."

I'm just waiting for Hydro to exercise their right to tell you "no smart meter, no power", since there's nothing that guarantees everyone the "right" to electricity delivery.

eventually.

he asked i answered.

i would be surprised if it isn't dragged through the courts for years before you are forced.

[Mr.HappySilp]

Lol it will be funny if BC hydro don't provide any power to anyone who refuse to get smart meter install. They can simply add some fine print.

The company I work for is changing to all digital cable service last fee months, ppl with no digital receivers can only get basic cable. We have ppl complain and threaten to sue us lol. I am sorry but we are the providers we do what we want.

[adambomb]

Our family doesn't want the Smart Meters installed.



Electricity is not a right, it is a service. :idea:

I guess your family could install stationary bikes all over the house, pedal hard and generate your own power when you want to run the dishwasher, watch tv or keep the refrigerator cold. It would be a great workout!! But you would probably have to take shifts to make sure the food stays cold. ;)

[Great68]

The company I work for is changing to all digital cable service last fee months, ppl with no digital receivers can only get basic cable. We have ppl complain and threaten to sue us lol. I am sorry but we are the providers we do what we want.

That's a terrible example.

At least a cable company pisses me off, I can cancel their service and choose a different provider. Or I can cancel cable altogether, and it won't largely affect my life.

In all but one area of BC, your only choice for electricity is BC Hydro. As much as people say that electricity is a "privilege", it's pretty difficult to live normally today without it.

[Soundy]

In all but one area of BC, your only choice for electricity is BC Hydro.
No it's not. There are lots of options out there for generating your own electricity. Hydro is the only choice to have it *delivered*.

As much as people say that electricity is a "privilege", it's pretty difficult to live normally today without it.
And yet, if you think it's a "right"... just try not paying your bill. See if any court in the land will back you up if you try to sue for getting cut off after a couple months.

[Great68]

No it's not. There are lots of options out there for generating your own electricity. Hydro is the only choice to have it *delivered*.


:rolleyes: I figured you would be smart enough to infer that I meant the only PRACTICAL choice, but I guess I was wrong in making that assumption. Furthermore, those options don't exist for the hundreds of thousands of people who live in apartments, condos, townhomes.


And yet, if you think it's a "right"... just try not paying your bill. See if any court in the land will back you up if you try to sue for getting cut off after a couple months.

Get your head out of your ass. Did I say that power was a "Right"? I said that unlike cable, living without power is pretty fucking difficult this day and age. Who the fuck said anything about not paying your bill? That's a different issue altogether.

Do you hump smart meters at night or something?

For the record, I am FOR smart meters.

[TRDood]

That's a terrible example.

At least a cable company pisses me off, I can cancel their service and choose a different provider. Or I can cancel cable altogether, and it won't largely affect my life.

In all but one area of BC, your only choice for electricity is BC Hydro. As much as people say that electricity is a "privilege", it's pretty difficult to live normally today without it.

You can generate your own electricity and be self sufficient.

[Soundy]

:rolleyes: I figured you would be smart enough to infer that I meant the only PRACTICAL choice, but I guess I was wrong in making that assumption.
People have different concepts of practicality.

Furthermore, those options don't exist for the hundreds of thousands of people who live in apartments, condos, townhomes.
There are options available to EVERYONE. Just a question of how much effort you want to put into it. Tell you one thing, if everyone had to pedal a bike to power their TV, it would give a whole new appreciation for "Power Smart".

Who the fuck said anything about not paying your bill?
I did. In case you missed it, the point was to outline for those who don't get it (which, BTW, I didn't say was you specifically) that they don't have a "right" to electric delivery.


Do you hump smart meters at night or something?
I hump rational thought... as opposed to threads like this.

[Mr.HappySilp]

That's a terrible example.

At least a cable company pisses me off, I can cancel their service and choose a different provider. Or I can cancel cable altogether, and it won't largely affect my life.

In all but one area of BC, your only choice for electricity is BC Hydro. As much as people say that electricity is a "privilege", it's pretty difficult to live normally today without it.

They are providing u a service, if ppl don't like it then don't use it. Sure is hard to live by but u can if u try hard enough. U can install sun panels on your roof, buy generators to power your house.......

There is always a choice.

[Great68]

U can install sun panels on your roof, buy generators to power your house.......

There is always a choice.

You're assuming everyone lives in a house. That doesn't work for apartment/condo dwellers.

[Manic!]

You're assuming everyone lives in a house. That doesn't work for apartment/condo dwellers.

And if you live in an apartment or a condo you have a choice if you want smart meters or not?

[Soundy]

And if you live in an apartment or a condo you have a choice if you want smart meters or not?

Yeah, the guy whose unit is right next to the electrical room is gonna melt down and mutate from the radiation... everyone else in the building is safe!

[UFO]

We had the smart meters installed a few months ago in our condo. Our bills have stayed consistent over last year. Don't even notice the difference obviously

[Presto]

If you don't want a smart meter, just whip out your gun when the dude comes to install it. Like this lady:
http://media.khou.com/images/7-19-12-woman-gun.jpg

Thelma Taormina didn’t want a new electric meter, and she went to great lengths to keep her old one.

When a worker showed up at her northwest Harris County home to install a smart meter, she grabbed her gun.

"He just kept pushing me away," the 55-year-old Taormina, who is licensed to carry a weapon, said. "He saw it, and went back the other way."

CenterPoint Energy has nearly completed installing more than 2 million smart meters in the Harris County area.

But Taormina says she shouldn’t be forced to get one.

The smart meters digitally count kilowatts and wirelessly transmit information.

"Our constitution allows us not to have that kind of intrusion on our personal privacy," she said. "They’ll be able to tell if you are running your computer, air conditioner, whatever it is."

"I am very upset with it," her husband said.

The Public Utilities Commission is now considering allowing homeowners to have the smart meters removed.

Meanwhile, the Taorminas have formed a group called "We the People," which is asking for hearings that could change when and where smart meters are placed.

For now, the Taorminas get to keep their old meter. But that might not last – despite the warning signs they’ve posted at their home.

"We are deeply troubled by anyone who would pull a gun on another person performing their job," a CenterPoint spokesperson said. "CenterPoint will be taking additional steps – including court actions – because what happened is dangerous, illegal and unwarranted."

The Taorminas and the group "We the People" plan to continue asking the PUC to not force people to use the new meters.
http://www.khou.com/news/Harris-County-woman-uses-gun-to-stop-worker-from-installing-smart-meter-162948266.html

[Soundy]

This is the problem with most of the people who are "against" them"

"Our constitution allows us not to have that kind of intrusion on our personal privacy," she said. "They’ll be able to tell if you are running your computer, air conditioner, whatever it is."

What they're "against" is bullshit. Not technologically possible.

They're getting worked up over some made-up claim that some self-proclaimed internet guru is spewing, probably with the sole intent of getting the lemmings worked up in the first place.

And they're falling for it.

[Psykopathik]

the meter man better think twice before pushing anyone. never mind pulling a gun out, its already assault.

[Mr.HappySilp]

If you don't want a smart meter, just whip out your gun when the dude comes to install it. Like this lady:
http://media.khou.com/images/7-19-12-woman-gun.jpg

LOl they should cut her power right away. She is dangerous and also the meter belongs to CenterPoint and if she doesn't comply with their ToS then cut her off. I am sorry but having power delivery to you is not your right. You paid for a service and agree to their ToS.

If the ToS is change to use a smart meter, you can either live with it or disconnect the service. I am so sick of all these ppl who are against smart meters. I am not againt it or agree to it but again it is not YOUR RIGHT TO have power delivery to you. CenterPoint /BC Hydro is providing you a service, they can take it away anytime.

[Soundy]

Oh yeah, that's another thing:

"Our constitution allows us not to have that kind of intrusion on our personal privacy," she said.

It doesn't, actually: Things That Are Not In the U.S. Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net (http://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html#privacy)

[q0192837465]

She should lose her gun license. She obviously cannot tell when and how a gun can or should be used. Just because she has a license doesn't give her the right to threaten other people who are simply doing their job.

[Lomac]

Oops?

BC Hydro claims a Mission homeowner is ultimately liable for a fire that originated at the base of a smart meter one day after it was installed.

A report by the Mission fire department said the blaze, which destroyed Trish Regan’s house in the 7900-block of Burdock Street and leaped to the roof of a neighbouring home on June 15, originated at an insulating “lug” in the lower left corner of the meter base. The report says the terminal, which attached the meter base to the home, appeared cracked and “radiated heat to combust the wall at or near the meter base.”

The base is the mounting plate for the meter, which measures how much electricity a home consumes during each utility-service billing period. Electricity must pass from the meter through the lugs to connect with the house wiring.

BC Hydro maintains the meter base is part of the house and thus any damage or faulty wiring is the customer’s responsibility.

Spokeswoman Cindy Verschoor said the Crown corporation has fixed about 1,000 homes with faulty or damaged wiring before it installed the smart meters, but residents should be ensuring they have electricians check the wiring regularly.

“We are fixing that for the customer free of charge as long as they give us permission,” she said. “Those are cases of a fire risk. They are potential accidents waiting to happen.

“We’re always [doing work] on good faith that the customer has working, functional equipment to support our infrastructure.”

The meter bases function like household electrical sockets and are built to withstand meters being plugged in and pulled out multiple times, Verschoor said.

If a resident is concerned about their meter base, they can call Hydro to come unlock the meter and remove it for about $100, she added.

Verschoor acknowledged the technician in Regan’s case did not see the crack when installing the smart meter at her home, but wouldn’t speculate as to what caused the damage, saying the issue is still under investigation.

“It’s possible there was a pre-existing condition that wasn’t evident,” Verschoor said.

But Regan argued she had no idea she was responsible for the fire, noting smart meters are locked in place on the base and she has no access to them. Furthermore, Regan said the crack could have been caused by the installer, noting that she wasn’t home when he arrived, but her daughter witnessed him trying three or four times to jam the meter onto the base.

“If there’s an existing crack they’re not supposed to put a meter on it,” she said. “I’ve lived in my house for 20 years and the day after they put in a smart meter, it burns down.”

Regan is also increasingly frustrated by the Mission fire department, who initially told her the fire was caused by a crack on the base of the smart meter; it later revised its verdict to “electrical in nature.” Her insurance company filed a freedom of information request, which indicated the fire did originate at the base of the smart meter.

The blaze destroyed Regan’s home, three vehicles in her driveway, and damaged her neighbour’s house.

The smart meter itself was eliminated as the cause of the fire, and BC Hydro maintains it did not see any cracks when the meter was being installed. The utility said out of the 1.5 million smart meters it has installed to date, only 250 residents have complained of faulty meter bases.

Read more: Fire guts Mission home after BC Hydro smart meter installed (http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Fire+guts+Mission+home+after+Hydro+smart+meter+ins talled/7033882/story.html#ixzz22X0DT3na)

[blkgsr]

my electrician on site told me about these meters being swaped and causing fires


hydro swaped mine out the other day...boo

what are the high/low times for rates?

[Graeme S]

Billing is the same, but now the readings go out over cell networks, instead of having a guy come to your house and read it.

[JesseBlue]

my electrician on site told me about these meters being swaped and causing fires


hydro swaped mine out the other day...boo

what are the high/low times for rates?
if this is true, then tell that mission lady because it seems like an admission of guilt

[Soundy]

what are the high/low times for rates?

It's only been said a bazillion times: THERE IS NO PEAK-TIME BILLING.

BC Hydro - Frequently Asked Questions (http://www.bchydro.com/energy_in_bc/projects/smart_metering_infrastructure_program/faqs.html)

Question
Will BC Hydro be introducing time-of-use rates?


BC Hydro will not be implementing time-of-use rates because we don't need them.

Time-of-use rates are used in jurisdictions with peak demand that exceeds the utility's ability to supply electricity to its customers. They have to buy expensive electricity in order to meet that peak demand. This is very important in jurisdictions that rely on coal or fossil fuels to generate electricity.

In British Columbia, we are fortunate to have a flexible electricity system that is 94 per cent hydro generation, where water flow can be adjusted to match supply and demand as needed. We are also addressing future capacity constraints through expansions to existing infrastructure, such as Mica 5 and 6 and our Integrated Resources Plan.

:facepalm:

[JesseBlue]

they only have step billing...which i think is a cash grab...especially with the explanation above...

[Soundy]

How is it a cash grab? Use less power, pay lower rates. Be a power-hogging fucktard, pay higher rates. Your choice.

[sleepywheel]

My household was part of a test with BC Hydro a few years ago. They put special meters in at our house and timed our usage. We were asked to try and change our non-essential usage to off peak hours to see what differences it would make. The off peak hours would be at a cheaper rate. So we washed our clothes and fired up the dishwasher at 9 o'clock at night and I think it did make a little difference on our electrical bill.

At the end of it all, we had a meeting which was kind of strange. The participants and a moderator were all in one room and the hydro people were in another. We couldn't see or hear them but they could hear us discuss what we did to try and use the power at off peak hours.

My take on the trial was that it was successful, but to the point where Hydro would lose money since it was possible for the participants to save money. So they came up with the two tier system because it made them more money, which tells me that they are definitely in the money business.

[Soundy]

Saw this rather long-winded diatribe in the Maple Ridge Times today:

Data access unequivocally refused (http://www.mrtimes.com/health/Data+access+unequivocally+refused/7864743/story.html)
Data access unequivocally refused


BY RUONA K. ASPLUND, THE TIMES JANUARY 24, 2013


Dear Editor,

The following is an open letter to: Mr. Gary Murphy, chief project officer for Smart Metering Program.

I am writing in response to your letter dated Jan. 4, in which you stated your intention to install a Smart Meter at my residence.

I wish to bring to your attention a registered letter, a notice of no consent, sent to Mr. Greg Reimer, executive vice-president, transmission and distribution in November 2011.

I will state my reasons for refusal and ask that you carefully consider these concerns, which are not only for myself but for all citizens of Canada and throughout this beautiful planet we call earth.

For Canadians, let me say that our forefathers and mothers, yours and mine, came to this country to escape tyranny and rigid anti-life regimes. They came here to be free. Many people have given their lives so that we may enjoy freedom in this great country.

Having said that, I am distressed that a system is being put into place which is anti-free choice. There has been no public approval of this wireless technology, many people do not even know that it is wireless. They assume that it is a new version of the fibre optic system which has served us well and not been shown to contribute to health problems.

That brings me to the next point: Potential and real health risks involving wireless and microwave technology.

Many people on the planet are more sensitive to energy – I am one of those people.

I cannot tolerate a microwave in my home, and I do not want to have one outside my home.

I urge you to read the studies. There are many studies over many years, independent studies, not studies paid for by governments or companies.

These studies demonstrate a direct correlation to health problems and exposure to electo-magnetic radiation.

I urge you to educate yourself for the sake of your own health and the health of your loved ones. Cancer and related diseases are epidemic in our society, RMFs are some of the contributing factors.

In addition to the health issues, there is the matter of data collection.

Excuse me, but do you want someone gathering data on you and then selling it or sharing it with others?

I don’t think you do.

You may give all the assurances you want, but the reality is that anyone and everyone can access the information if they so choose. In fact, WIRED magazine calls the smart grid a “spy grid” and states: “We’re going to use smart tech to spy on you, this is what we’re doing. What are you going to do about it?”

There is the security issue.

You and I know that there are hackers who can get into anything. You can’t guarantee security. It’s not just security of information, it is security of the grid itself.

Terrorists and nation states can easily shut down the whole grid. Do you want to be responsible for enabling that to happen?

Although you are currently chief project officer for the meter program, you are first and foremost a human being, an individual with individual rights and responsibilities. I ask you recall that the S.S. officers in Nazi Germany were “just following orders.”

I will repeat to you and to all contractors:

Be advised that you and all parties are hereby denied consent for installation and use of all Smart Meters on my property for surveillance, and actively monitoring device or devices at the above property.

I forbid, refuse, and deny consent to install a Smart Meter.

Any attempt to install such a device will constitute trespass, stalking, wiretapping, and unlawful surveillance and endangerment to health and safety – all prohibited and punishable by law through criminal and civil complaints.

This is a legal notice. Notice to principal is notice to agent, and notice to agent is notice to principal.

Ruona K. Asplund, Maple Ridge


And my response:

A favorite TV character of mine once said, "There is always choice. We say there is no choice only to comfort ourselves with the decision we have already made."

When you want internet and television service (from Shaw, Telus, etc.), you choose to accept the equipment they provide with it (modem, decoder box)... or you choose not to use their service. Nobody seems to have a problem with this.

When you want to drive on our public streets, you choose to obtain the proper license and insurance... or you choose to walk. Few would argue against this either.

When you want to cross the border, you choose to provide the required identification upon request... or you choose to stay in Canada. This is an accepted truth.

I would submit to Ruona K. Asplund that should she want to use BC Hydro's services, she must likewise choose to use the required equipment... or she has the choice to not use their service. She has to choice to generate her own power by any number of alternate methods available (I have a friend who does just this, somewhere outside of Boston Bar). She has the choice to use gas lamps for light, and chop wood to burn for heat (I grew up with this, trust me, it's not all that bad, and it's good exercise).

Nobody is taking away those choices. Nobody is forcing her to use BC Hydro's power. Neither does she have any right to BC Hydro's power if she doesn't accept their conditions for its use; if you think you have a right to electricity, just try not paying your bill for a few months - that's a choice as well.

You see, Ms. Asplund... nobody is infringing on your free will. Conditions are being placed on delivery of a service that people lived without for thousands of years... that's all. If you don't like the conditions placed on its delivery, you are free to choose to forego that service, to find your own alternatives. Just because you may find those alternatives bothersome, or inconvenient, does not remove your ability to choose.

Because the truth is, there is always choice. We say there is no choice only to comfort ourselves with the decision we have already made.

[tool001]

^ didn't courts already turn down 'right to refuse smart meter challenge'?

[Soundy]

Something to that effect. Still doesn't stop people from "asserting their rights". Some of them are pretty articulate... too bad they don't know what their rights actually are. Or aren't.

[GLOW]

i'd like to read her response to your post

[payrent]

People seem to not know that you don't have full property rights here compared to the USA or even mainland China, a communist country. Everything here belongs to the crown. If the government wants to build a skytrain through your house, they're going to get it. Likewise if you strike gold or oil in your backyard.

[Gridlock]

People seem to not know that you don't have full property rights here compared to the USA or even mainland China, a communist country. Everything here belongs to the crown. If the government wants to build a skytrain through your house, they're going to get it. Likewise if you strike gold or oil in your backyard.

Happens in the US too.

Eminent domain. All you need to do is pay off the owner, show cause for the greater good and watch them roll out the asphalt.

[Soundy]

i'd like to read her response to your post

Alas, people like that don't think rationally, so I wouldn't expect a rational response. I quite expect it would go on about democratic process and basic human rights and the Constitution so forth... none of which really apply here.

[Tapioca]

People seem to not know that you don't have full property rights here compared to the USA or even mainland China, a communist country. Everything here belongs to the crown. If the government wants to build a skytrain through your house, they're going to get it. Likewise if you strike gold or oil in your backyard.

Half-correct.

The Crown has rights over natural resources. The Crown also has the right to build public highways and rights-of-way, but they cannot be more than 1/20th of the size of the land you own unless compensation is paid.

[Yodamaster]

Oh yeah, that's another thing:



It doesn't, actually: Things That Are Not In the U.S. Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net (http://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html#privacy)

You're right, it's not in the constitution, but it is a human right.

Not that I'm defending her actions, but her right to privacy is undeniable. Of course, that means that the company should just shut her off from their services.

She signed for her energy consumption according to the company's terms, not her own. This is also why I find it amusing to watch people complain about hydro, energy is not a right.

However, you do have the right to build energy producing machinery as long as it complies with zoning and safety regulations.

[Soundy]

You're right, it's not in the constitution, but it is a human right.

Not that I'm defending her actions, but her right to privacy is undeniable.
Is it? Says who? You?

There are no true "human rights". Everything we consider "rights" today have been granted by human decisions and agreements over the years, many dating back to the 13th century... but none are truly "inalienable". Parts of the world don't recognize these agreements, and guess what? If you go there, you don't have those "rights" any more.

While it's true that most of Western law grants citizens varying rights to personal privacy... those don't apply here. You can't tell a service provider that you want their service, then deny them access to provide it. You can't call Shaw and tell them you want internet but then tell them the installer isn't allowed on your property because of "privacy" concerns.

[beproud]

God, someone always have something to complain about eh. Don't like it - don't use it, don't want it - don't buy it, can't stand it - gtfo lol

[CharlesInCharge]

There are too many cell biologist in this thread... and conditioned minds without real knowledge of present and past tyrannies.

[Marco911]

Something to that effect. Still doesn't stop people from "asserting their rights". Some of them are pretty articulate... too bad they don't know what their rights actually are. Or aren't.
t
It's not exactly free choice when BCHydro is a government regulated monopoly. Consumers can't just switch companies. So no, I don't really agree with your argument. The primary purpose of a meter is to tell the company how much electricity you are consuming, which can be served by existing technology. If the woman doesn't want the new meters in her home, she should be able to opt out of the program.

[tonyzoomzoom]

bchydro also need to know when you consume electricity so that they can better optimize the size of their transformers, substations ,etc. (to manage times of peak consumption). The meter isn't just for billing purposes.

[Yodamaster]

Is it? Says who? You?

There are no true "human rights". Everything we consider "rights" today have been granted by human decisions and agreements over the years, many dating back to the 13th century... but none are truly "inalienable". Parts of the world don't recognize these agreements, and guess what? If you go there, you don't have those "rights" any more.

While it's true that most of Western law grants citizens varying rights to personal privacy... those don't apply here. You can't tell a service provider that you want their service, then deny them access to provide it. You can't call Shaw and tell them you want internet but then tell them the installer isn't allowed on your property because of "privacy" concerns.

Nowhere did I say that the provider had to obey her privacy when it came to a service that they owned. She signed a contract that gave the company the right to maintain and alter their own equipment on her property, unless the owner chooses to sever the service. Her signature on that contract voided her right to ask the worker to leave.

My right to privacy outside of any government, debt, or company contract is untouchable, because I am willing to fight for it.

"Everything we consider "rights" today have been granted by human decisions and agreements over the years"

Decisions and agreements, otherwise known as "mind your own business or I'll make you my business". It IS a right because I, and many others, have said so.

[Soundy]

It's not exactly free choice when BCHydro is a government regulated monopoly. Consumers can't just switch companies.
They can, actually. A friend of mine lives completely off the grid outside of Boston Bar... in large part because it would simply be cost-prohibitive to bring the infrastructure in for the few people in the area. He taps water off the creek up the mountain and runs it through a generator. He has solar panels on his roof. He has banks of batteries to store the excess, and powers 120V devices through a large inverter. It all works quite well. Instead of paying a monthly fee to a single service provider, he pays a one-time charge to assorted equipment providers. He has all the electricity he needs, and completely without BC Hydro.

So yes, technically, it is possible to "switch companies".

Or to do without entirely: my family moved from the Lower Mainland to a cabin on a lake in the Cariboo when I was 10. I lived the first year and a half there with NO electricity in the house (aside from batteries for flashlights and radios). Light came from coal oil and white gas lamps; heat and cooking were provided by chopping and burning wood. The simple fact was, there WAS no electricity running out our way. And we didn't NEED it. Once Hydro put service into the area, we got it hooked up as it is certainly a CONVENIENCE. But that's all it is - it's not a NEED.

People around here survived for decades with a monopoly provider for cable television. They lived with a monopoly provider for phone service. There was always the CHOICE to use it by the service provider's terms, or do without.

And the same applies to electricity: it's a CONVENIENCE, not a NEED. You can choose to live with it by the provider's terms, or do without.

If the woman doesn't want the new meters in her home, she should be able to opt out of the program.
Yes, she can. She can choose to terminate her contract with with BC Hydro, and simply do without their service. It might not be a choice that she LIKES... but then life if full of choices we don't like. They exist, nonetheless.

[Soundy]

bchydro also need to know when you consume electricity so that they can better optimize the size of their transformers, substations ,etc. (to manage times of peak consumption). The meter isn't just for billing purposes.

Right. It also allows them to easily tell when and where an outage occurs.

This, again, is something all you "city folk" don't get, but there are vast areas of the province where a power outage due to line or system damage could go unnoticed for days or weeks if nobody is bothered or able to report it. Sure, here in the urban areas, if the lights flicker for a moment, Hydro will be inundated with calls... it other areas, not so much.

There was one story I recall from the snowstorms a few years ago, where a rural area outside of Victoria was without power for days, in large part because crews had a hard time finding where the actual damage was to the lines. A "smart grid" system where the meters can report back their status would have made it far easier to quickly pinpoint the fault.

[Soundy]

Local News Story - CKNW AM 980: News. Talk. Sports. (http://www.cknw.com/news/vancouver/story.aspx?ID=2008049)

Don't want a smart meter? It will cost you
British Columbia/CKNW(AM980)
CKNW News Staff | Email news tips to nwnews@cknw.com
7/18/2013

Energy Minister Bill Bennett has unveiled two options for BC Hydro customers refusing to accept smart meters, but they both cost money.
Anyone insisting on keeping the old meters will be charged a monthly fee to cover the inconvenience of having them checked manually.
The other choice is to accept a digital meter with the radio off.
That option will be subject to a one-time charge for modifying the instrument... plus a monthly fee to read it.
No prices have been set, but they will be subject to review by the BC Utilities commission.
Last week, we told you 60-thousand customers are still holding out.
BC Hydro staff claim that amounts to four per cent.
The program is slated for completion by March 1 of next year.

Listening to Simi's segment this afternoon, I had a few thoughts... well, I've had them for a while, but something gelled listening to discussion surrounding the new rules allowing people to keep their old meters, or the RF-disabled new meters...

A common call has been for an investigation into why the meters were pushed through without more consultation... and it occurred to me, Hydro was probably operating with the understanding that this was a fairly innocuous technology that would allow them to upgrade and streamline their system, and honestly didn't foresee the level of pushback they're getting. As such, there was no plan in place initially to provide options. But of course, there are always the alarmists, the anti-authority types, the anti-technology types, and all those others who ascribe all sorts of nonsensical evils to any sort of change, but thanks to the internet, are now able to get all kinds of regular joes riled up with various types of FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt).

A couple callers had issue with having to pay an extra charge to keep their old meters... I don't know what's so hard to understand: before, there were travelling meter readers that could carry out the task relatively cheaply due to the economies of scale; with the new meters, they're not needed, so if you want someone to make a SPECIAL TRIP to your place to read your SPECIAL METER, then you should be willing to pay the extra cost for that person.

I have to agree with the caller who stated "it's all in their heads" - we've seen stories of people complaining about the meters' effects on their health BEFORE THEIR METERS WERE EVEN SWITCHED. Some complain of constant issues, when the fact is, the meters turn on few a few seconds, a couple times a day, and otherwise the RF component they all fear is not active.

[sleepywheel]

I have to agree with the caller who stated "it's all in their heads" - we've seen stories of people complaining about the meters' effects on their health BEFORE THEIR METERS WERE EVEN SWITCHED. Some complain of constant issues, when the fact is, the meters turn on few a few seconds, a couple times a day, and otherwise the RF component they all fear is not active.

Just wondering about the quote "the meters turning on for a few seconds, a couple of times a day". Did you get that from one of their releases?
I distinctly remember one of the sales pitches was that they can tell when the power goes out without people having to call them. To do that, I would think that the meters communicate with the mother ship a lot more than a couple of times a day.

I don't have any problems with the smart meter on the outside of my house that is about 3 feet from my head when I'm sleeping. My tin foil helmet protects me from everything! :badpokerface:

[Graeme S]

Just wondering about the quote "the meters turning on for a few seconds, a couple of times a day". Did you get that from one of their releases?
I distinctly remember one of the sales pitches was that they can tell when the power goes out without people having to call them. To do that, I would think that the meters communicate with the mother ship a lot more than a couple of times a day.

I don't have any problems with the smart meter on the outside of my house that is about 3 feet from my head when I'm sleeping. My tin foil helmet protects me from everything! :badpokerface:

BC Hydro FAQ:
Radio Frequency and BC Hydro's Smart Meters (http://www.bchydro.com/energy-in-bc/projects/smart_metering_infrastructure_program/faqs/radio_frequency.html)

Understanding Radio Frequency and BC Hydro's Smart Meters

Safety is our top priority for BC Hydro and is an important focus of the Smart Metering Program. That's why we have reviewed the scientific research related to radio frequency based technology. After decades of research, there are no demonstrable health or environmental effects from exposure to low level radio frequency signals. Here are the facts about smart meters and their low level radio frequency:

Smart meters are active for an average of less than one minute per day.

Residential smart meters are active for a total average of less than one minute per day, which includes the relay of information that may be required for data transmission and coordination between meters. Planetworks Consulting, a North Vancouver engineering firm, has conducted independent testing confirming that BC Hydro's new meters communicate for about 1.4 seconds per day. In fact, the exposure to radio frequency from a smart meter – over its entire 20-year life span – is equal to a single 30 minute cell phone call.

Smart meters communicate using very low power signals.

Unlike other wireless infrastructure, smart meters use very low power signals – about one watt. This is less than 2 microwatts per square centimetre (μW/cm2) when standing adjacent to the meter. A microwatt is one millionth of a watt.

BC Hydro's smart meter signals are far lower than some of the strictest thresholds in the world.

Europe has some of the world’s strictest radiofrequency regulations. Switzerland, for example, has a precautionary limit of 4.5 μW/cm2 for highly sensitive areas like schools and hospitals. In comparison, BC Hydro smart meter signals – at the same distance of 20 centimetres (8 inches) – are less than 2 μW/cm2.

Existing meter boxes act like a reflective shield.

Existing meter boxes, the socket where smart meters are installed, act like a shield that directs smart meter radio frequency signals away from the home.

Radio frequency signal strength drop quickly with distance.

Smart meters are installed outside and the power density reduces exponentially with distance. Three meters (10 feet) from the smart meter, the radio frequency signal drops to less than 0.001 per cent (0.005 μW/cm2) of the Health Canada exposure limits.

In high-density residential complexes, like apartment buildings, the meters communicate with each other using collaborative network technology. Due to the closeness of meters within the meter bank, the cumulative effect peaks at just two times the power density of a single meter. This is equal to spending four minutes in an area with wireless internet over one year.

Like smart meters, collectors use lower power, infrequent, short signals.

Collectors, which receive data from smart meters and send it to BC Hydro, are mounted on existing utility poles 5.5 to 7.5 metres (18 to 24 feet) off the ground and are inactive 99 per cent of the time. The collector also uses extremely low power – about one watt.

B.C.'s health authorities confirm that smart meters pose no known health risk or reason for concern

Dr. Patricia Daly and Dr. John Blatherwick, the current and previous Chief Medical Health Officers for Vancouver Coastal Health, confirm there is no known health risk and no reason for concern over radio frequency from normal cell phone usage. BC Hydro's new meters operate at significantly lower radio transmit power than cell phones and communicate much less frequently. You can read Provincial Health Officer Dr. Perry Kendall's statements about cell phone use and radio frequency on the B.C. Centre for Disease Control website.

[Soundy]

I distinctly remember one of the sales pitches was that they can tell when the power goes out without people having to call them. To do that, I would think that the meters communicate with the mother ship a lot more than a couple of times a day.
OR, if the power goes out, they simply turn on long enough to report it. Not rocket science.

[sleepywheel]

OR, if the power goes out, they simply turn on long enough to report it. Not rocket science.

Just being the devils advocate here, I love a good discussion, as long as I learn something. Would it be the individual meter that sends the signal? Or the collector on the pole? Just a for-instance, if a backhoe accidentally hits the power line and breaks the connection at the house, would hydro know? I guess they eventually would when it comes that time of the day for it to send its signal.

I like how the FAQ says that the meter box acts as a shield and directs the signal away from the house. My neighbours meter is directly across from mine and only a few feet away. So his meter is sending signals in one direction my way and mine is in a different direction going his way. Kind of a moot point for hydro to bring up. With all that talk about low radio frequency signals and how fast it drops, how can a collector monitor our two meters?

[Soundy]

Just being the devils advocate here, I love a good discussion, as long as I learn something. Would it be the individual meter that sends the signal? Or the collector on the pole?
I would imagine that would depend on the exact nature of the power loss. Obviously if the system loses contact with the collector, it will know there's a problem as well. Otherwise... meter detects it's lost power, it sends out a little blurb saying, "Hey, got a problem here!" Same idea as you phoning in the outage, just automatic and a lot quicker.

[dinosaur]

Why this sudden change? I'm a little confused.....

[sleepywheel]

After listening to the argument about smart meters on the radio this morning, I wonder why the people that don't want the meter can't pay to have the meter installed on the hydro pole that is not on their property. It's now away from their house and 20 feet up in the air since no one needs to read it anymore. It may not be cheap to do but sure would put a stop to a lot of the arguments.

[Gridlock]

After listening to the argument about smart meters on the radio this morning, I wonder why the people that don't want the meter can't pay to have the meter installed on the hydro pole that is not on their property. It's now away from their house and 20 feet up in the air since no one needs to read it anymore. It may not be cheap to do but sure would put a stop to a lot of the arguments.

...because the best things in life are free.

No one ever wants to take the next logical step and put their money where their mouth is.

[Graeme S]

Why this sudden change? I'm a little confused.....
From BC Hydro, you mean? Most likely because offering an (admittedly unsavourable) option is much cheaper in the long run than fighting what would potentially end up either a lengthy court-appeals process.

[Soundy]

After listening to the argument about smart meters on the radio this morning, I wonder why the people that don't want the meter can't pay to have the meter installed on the hydro pole that is not on their property. It's now away from their house and 20 feet up in the air since no one needs to read it anymore. It may not be cheap to do but sure would put a stop to a lot of the arguments.
Because that would be logical, and logic goes out the window with most of these people. If it's not the alleged health effects, it's the alleged "privacy" concerns. If not that, it's just the fact that it's being "forced" on them. Once someone who refuses to be rational has made up their mind, there will be no changing it for anything.

Why this sudden change? I'm a little confused.....

From BC Hydro, you mean? Most likely because offering an (admittedly unsavourable) option is much cheaper in the long run than fighting what would potentially end up either a lengthy court-appeals process.
That would be my guess. Throw'em a bone.

[dinosaur]

To be honest, I haven't been following this that much as it doesn't affect us in New West.

I had a fleeting thought that, "oh shit, they found that they COULD cause cancer now and by giving people an option it removes liability".

I didn't realize people had taken it to that level (court/suing/etc).

[Ronin]

Fuck me, why do people keep thinking these things spy on them? No one is spying on you. YOU ARE NOT IMPORTANT. Just about everyone involved with implementing the smart meters doesn't even know of your existence. You are a number to them. That's it. They don't care what kind of porn you're watching. NO ONE DOES. You do not matter.

About 10 people give a shit that you're alive. The rest of humanity will go on whether you live or die so do you really think anyone cares that you turn on the washing machine at 3am?

I can't stand the uneducated wackjobs that still think electronics run on pixie dust and voodoo. Cell phones cause cancer? Then don't fucking get one. Don't want a smart meter? Then start digging. You're going to need a waterfall or something to power your house.

Want to know why we don't have flying cars? Because assholes like this hold technology back by refusing to adopt and adapt. If we don't have hoverboards by 2015, you have assholes like these people to thank.

I would've thought the people opposing smart meters would be the people whose jobs they replace like how grocery store clerks are being replaced by self-check out and retail service people are being replaced by....Amazon.

[Soundy]

Fuck me, why do people keep thinking these things spy on them? No one is spying on you. YOU ARE NOT IMPORTANT. Just about everyone involved with implementing the smart meters doesn't even know of your existence. You are a number to them. That's it. They don't care what kind of porn you're watching. NO ONE DOES. You do not matter.

About 10 people give a shit that you're alive. The rest of humanity will go on whether you live or die so do you really think anyone cares that you turn on the washing machine at 3am?
That's the kicker: even IF someone could hack your meter and read your energy usage, it still won't tell them what you're doing or what devices/appliances you're using... ONLY HOW MUCH ELECTRICITY YOU'RE USING. A stove or a dryer use close to the same amount of current... no way to tell which it is without actually watching through your windows with binoculars. Hell, someone could get just as much info on your energy usage by watching the spinning dial on your old analog meter.

[willystyle]

Some of the controversy surrounding smart meters is that some residents in the US are suffering from a variety of health issues after smart meters were installed at their residence.

[Gridlock]

Fuck me, why do people keep thinking these things spy on them? No one is spying on you. YOU ARE NOT IMPORTANT. Just about everyone involved with implementing the smart meters doesn't even know of your existence. You are a number to them. That's it. They don't care what kind of porn you're watching. NO ONE DOES. You do not matter.

About 10 people give a shit that you're alive. The rest of humanity will go on whether you live or die so do you really think anyone cares that you turn on the washing machine at 3am?

I can't stand the uneducated wackjobs that still think electronics run on pixie dust and voodoo. Cell phones cause cancer? Then don't fucking get one. Don't want a smart meter? Then start digging. You're going to need a waterfall or something to power your house.

Want to know why we don't have flying cars? Because assholes like this hold technology back by refusing to adopt and adapt. If we don't have hoverboards by 2015, you have assholes like these people to thank.

I would've thought the people opposing smart meters would be the people whose jobs they replace like how grocery store clerks are being replaced by self-check out and retail service people are being replaced by....Amazon.

Love it!

The only concern on spying that people could possibly have is grow ops. It should light up like a christmas tree in someone's office.

Of course, the first time they send someone out to check, and it isn't a grow op, but its aunt edna and her 20 fridges in the basement, well Global TV will have a field day.

[Graeme S]

Some of the controversy surrounding smart meters is that some residents in the US are suffering from a variety of health issues after smart meters were installed at their residence.
Many of which defy the current understandings and/or technologies underlying the meters. Like people who complain of constant headaches at home once the meters are installed (sometimes at the edge of their property) and alleviate the 'symptoms' by putting an aluminum foil barrier between it and their house.

Except that the meters aren't always-on, and aluminum foil does almost fuck all when it comes to EM emissions.


And if people were that sensitive to EM fields of the sort that the Smart Meters use, then they would be dying every time someone used a cellphone near them, or wifi, or...really, if they went anywhere. From my place, I have eight (!) wifi signals, and I live just in a suburban residental home. A single smart meter that's active less than a full minute a day would not do any significant damage relative to the current background radiation that's created by other technologies.

[Traum]

Many of which defy the current understandings and/or technologies underlying the meters. Like people who complain of constant headaches at home once the meters are installed (sometimes at the edge of their property) and alleviate the 'symptoms' by putting an aluminum foil barrier between it and their house.

Except that the meters aren't always-on, and aluminum foil does almost fuck all when it comes to EM emissions.

And if people were that sensitive to EM fields of the sort that the Smart Meters use, then they would be dying every time someone used a cellphone near them, or wifi, or...really, if they went anywhere. From my place, I have eight (!) wifi signals, and I live just in a suburban residental home. A single smart meter that's active less than a full minute a day would not do any significant damage relative to the current background radiation that's created by other technologies.
Graeme,

When you are not the one suffering from these ill effects, it is easy for you to say what you've said above. But if you are willing to put yourself into some of these people's shoes, perhaps you could understand this a little better.

I happen to be one of these people that do not respond well to the hydro smart meter, and for the longest time, I didn't know it was the smart meter making me feel sick. What happens in my case is, the power meter at my house is located directly on the opposite side of my computer room's wall. For at least 7 or 8 years, I have regularly spend huge amounts of time in my computer room studying for school, working and playing on my computer, etc. without any issues.

Then BC Hydro started implementing the smart meter program, and a smart meter was installed at my house, replacing the old but perfectly functional analog meter that we had. At first, I was completely oblivious to any health effects these smart meters and the EMF might be causing, so I continued my regular routine in my computer room. But soon after the smart meter installation, I started noticing that I was getting chest pains and feeling nauseated, and I had no idea why. The chest pains and nausea continued for another week or two, and gradually I started noticing that the chest pains and nausea would come when I spent time in the computer room. I can probably withstand a good 15 minutes or so before the chest pains come. By the half hour mark, the nausea would make it bad enough that I had to leave the room. This comes directly from my first hand personal experience, and has been repeatedly proven using myself as the test subject.

It took another few weeks before I finally clued in on how the smart meter and its EMF emissions might have been the cause of me feeling sick. A lot of googling and YouTube watching later, I pasted up 2 layers worth of aluminum foil along the entire wall where the smart meter sits (on the opposite side). And what do you know? I don't feel sick in my own computer room anymore.

You can say all of this first hand experience of mine is all in my head. But I will simply tell you otherwise. I am perfectly fine with whatever radio signals and EMFs routers, cel phones, microwave ovens pumps out. But with this smart meter business, it is making me feel sick. People have different bodies that respond differently to external factors. Just because you don't get sick from it doesn't mean others won't.

[Soundy]

^You realize there's already a metal box between you and the smart meter's inner workings, right? And that its wireless broadcast is actually active less than two seconds per day? How can it affect you when IT'S NOT EVEN RUNNING???

Psychosomatic | Define Psychosomatic at Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/psychosomatic)

[Ronin]

It's in your head. The smart meter isn't even transmitting most of the time.

You could stand in Chernobyl for a couple hours and not feel sick...why on earth would a tiny signal being sent for a tiny fraction of the day (you might not even be in the room when it broadcasts) is making you sick. It isn't voodoo.

[rsx]

psychosomatic fo sho.

[Ronin]

That guy is why we can't have hoverboards.

[Traum]

^You realize there's already a metal box between you and the smart meter's inner workings, right? And that its wireless broadcast is actually active less than two seconds per day? How can it affect you when IT'S NOT EVEN RUNNING???

Psychosomatic | Define Psychosomatic at Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/psychosomatic)
You realize I was completely oblivious to how the smart meter might be causing my chest pains and nausea at first, right? And you realize the whole ordeal took place over the course of more than a few weeks, right? And you realize my symptoms were continually repeatable before I started suspecting the smart meter was the culprit, right?

For what it is worth, I was highly skeptical when I put up the aluminum foil. But when the body no longer complains, the only logical conclusion is that it works.

[Soundy]

The scary thing is, a lot of these people will believe their smart meter is to blame for "new" symptoms, and not even bother looking for other causes of what might actually be a real physical problem.

[Traum]

It's in your head. The smart meter isn't even transmitting most of the time.

You could stand in Chernobyl for a couple hours and not feel sick...why on earth would a tiny signal being sent for a tiny fraction of the day (you might not even be in the room when it broadcasts) is making you sick. It isn't voodoo.
BC Hydro says the meter is only transmitting for a few short seconds everyday, but measurements taken by others with EMF meters suggest otherwise.

[Ronin]

I will give you $20 if a doctor (a REAL DOCTOR) tells you your chest pains are actually caused by the smart meter. Chest pains and nausea over a long term seem pretty serious. Go to a doctor and let them diagnose you. You could be the key to prevent smart meter installation for everyone and preventing chest pains in so many other people.

Or a doctor is going to laugh at you and tell you you're being silly. Go look up words like placebo and psychosomatic.

BC Hydro says the meter is only transmitting for a few short seconds everyday, but measurements taken by others with EMF meters suggest otherwise.

And who are these "others"?

[dinosaur]

You realize I was completely oblivious to how the smart meter might be causing my chest pains and nausea at first, right? And you realize the whole ordeal took place over the course of more than a few weeks, right? And you realize my symptoms were continually repeatable before I started suspecting the smart meter was the culprit, right?

For what it is worth, I was highly skeptical when I put up the aluminum foil. But when the body no longer complains, the only logical conclusion is that it works.

:suspicious:

dude, for realz?

[Ronin]

By the way, I don't give a flying fuck about thanks or fails so if you think I'm wrong, you're going to have to use words.

[Traum]

:suspicious:

dude, for realz?
I kid you not, Dino.

I don't have a good explanation for this, other than that different people have different bodies that respond differently to the same stimulant (EMF from smart meters, in this case). To me least, this doesn't seem far fetch at all. For example, tons of prescription drugs have varying degrees of side effects, but they only affect a tiny percentage of people out there. Tecta, for example, is a common prescription drug that inhibits gastric acid production. The majority of users do not suffer from any unwanted side effects, but a small percentage gets headaches from it, and an even smaller percentage suffer more serious consequences. Will the majority of people taking Tecta with no ill effects say that those who get headaches after taking the drug are suffering because it is all in their heads? (pun intended) Saying stuff like that would be entirely silly to the point of being ignorant.

[Traum]

And who are these "others"?
Google and YouTube are your friends. Don't expect me to do your homework for you.

[tonyzoomzoom]

there is way more EM shit coming from cell phones, wireless phones, wifi's, microwave ovens, electric razors, etc. than what is coming out from the smart meters. And even if you don't have those EM emitting devices in your home, your neighbours do !

[dinosaur]

In regards to this health concern stuff....tbh, I don't know what to think.

I think there should be some concern...but the tinfoil hat peeps are a little intense. The truth lies somewhere in the middle, without a doubt.

Everyone IS different.

-allergies
-diet
-sensitivities
-eye sight

etc...

Does not seem that far off that some may be more sensitive than others. Also, with BC Hydo having this change in policy DOES make me think that even they may not think it is as safe as it was before.

All this being said, it does not effect me...so, at the end of the day...whatevs.


17874

[Gridlock]

In regards to this health concern stuff....tbh, I don't know what to think.

I think there should be some concern...but the tinfoil hat peeps are a little intense. The truth lies somewhere in the middle, without a doubt.

http://media.screened.com/uploads/0/4280/680657-xfiles_super.jpg

Traum in Trust?

Traum In Charge?

Electro Magnetic Radiatio is a zionist plot for control.

[jaguar604]

Traum, I have a very serious question for you. Have you ever been assessed by a psychiatrist? Because you are displaying borderline paranoid delusions. If you are truly concerned about your experiences, go see your GP and ask for a referral to a psychiatrist.

[noclue]

wow now I understand the frustration BC Hydro must go through when you deal with customers such as Traum.

PS I've had a smart meter (enjoying the radiation btw) and my rates are still the same with the analog meter.

What more arguments do these anti-smart meters have?

[UFO]

to play devil's advocate, all of the claims of safety are based on pre-existing data and medical knowledge thus far. Keep in mind it was not out of the ordinary in the 70's for doctors and other medical professionals to be smoking in the hospitals. And with the research and empirical data we have now on smoking, well, we know where the stance is there.

I feel like those who are immediately striking down legitimate claims of discomfort are almost as ignorant as the 'tinfoilers' themselves. If you are refusing to explore new ideas and always working off old ones and existing beliefs of why things should or should not happen, how are we ever going to zip around on hoverboards? SOMEbody had to believe that flying in airplanes could happen when nobody else would believe it...

To the anti-smart meter advocates, I say correlation=/=causation; whatever floats your boat, now you have the option to run old analog meters you just have to pay for it, which is a fair compromise. To the pro-smart meter advocates, I say just because we don't understand something, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

[CharlesInCharge]

Traum the general public get their information from the media and the system overall which sees people as cattle and treats it as a commodity, not as human beings. You have to watch out for yourself and ignore the onslaught of sheep that regurgitate the main stream deception.

Lookup DrMercola's shows on grounding pads Ive been using one for over a year started seeing its effects right away.... you can buy them locally too.

16:9 show - forward to the 4:40 mark.
WiFi in schools proven dangerous. - YouTube



Definition of Sheep: 1. A group of people who lack the capacity for careful consideration, imagination, or individual thought, who thusly go with group and allow god awful trends and events to unfold and make us all miserable.

[quasi]

there is way more EM shit coming from cell phones, wireless phones, wifi's, microwave ovens, electric razors, etc. than what is coming out from the smart meters. And even if you don't have those EM emitting devices in your home, your neighbours do !

Exactly, I got diarrhea the other day and I'm pretty sure my smart meter sent out a single so I conclude the smart meter gave me the shits, it just makes sense. I mean it couldn't be anything I ate, bad reaction to medication or a virus that's just crazy talk.

[Tapioca]

The only concern on spying that people could possibly have is grow ops. It should light up like a christmas tree in someone's office.


Bingo!

[Traum]

Traum, I have a very serious question for you. Have you ever been assessed by a psychiatrist? Because you are displaying borderline paranoid delusions. If you are truly concerned about your experiences, go see your GP and ask for a referral to a psychiatrist.
Thank you for giving me a good chuckle, mate. :lol

[Gridlock]

Bingo!

...and I'm going to continue...I'm ok with that. There is no legit issue that a grow op can be confused with, and the amount of damage a grow op does to people's houses and property values does no one any good.

[jaguar604]

Thank you for giving me a good chuckle, mate. :lol

Denial is common to those who are undiagnosed. Many people go on to live normal lives but early recognition and acknowledgment can mitigate serious incidences of psychosis in the future. Right now, it's entirely up to you to seek help.

[Soundy]

To the anti-smart meter advocates, I say correlation=/=causation; whatever floats your boat, now you have the option to run old analog meters you just have to pay for it, which is a fair compromise. To the pro-smart meter advocates, I say just because we don't understand something, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
Well let's see, the "health effect" gang are claiming the WiFi emanations are causing them issues, but the WiFi (according to all documentation) is only on for a combined total of under two seconds per day... so what's supposedly affecting them the other 86,398 seconds?

[Traum]

Well let's see, the "health effect" gang are claiming the WiFi emanations are causing them issues, but the WiFi (according to all documentation) is only on for a combined total of under two seconds per day... so what's supposedly affecting them the other 86,398 seconds?
If the smart meters are really only transferring once per day for only 2 seconds, then why are EMF meters able to consistently pick up EMF readings from the smart meters every few minutes?

I personally see a few different possible explanations:

1) the smart meter may well be transmitting more than just once per day for only 2 seconds
2) the smart meter may really only be transmitting usage data to BC Hydro once per day, but to stay in sync with their system, they need regularly maintain communication with the HQ.
3) the EMF readings might not be coming from the smart meter's radio transmissions to BC Hydro. Rather, they are a by product of the meter's normal operations.

I am just brain storming here. Obviously there could be other possibilities. But in any case, the bottom line is, people are finding that these smart meters are producing EMF while the old analog meters didn't. In some cases, people are just concerned about what the EMF could do to their health. In other cases, they are making people feel physically unwell.

[Ronin]

That seems like something that one could easily get an answer for.

Does the EMF reading get higher during transmission and is low (but present) the rest of the time? Because everything gives off a "signal" in any state.

[Gridlock]

Well, you would need to prove the following:

1-there are "some type" of transmissions happening for more than the claimed seconds or minute
2-those transmissions are different than any other type of transmission in your house

Now, so far no one has been able to do so because we are talking about random youtube videos and no diffinitive proof or evidence that there is an issue.
Posted via RS Mobile

[Soundy]

If the smart meters are really only transferring once per day for only 2 seconds, then why are EMF meters able to consistently pick up EMF readings from the smart meters every few minutes?

I personally see a few different possible explanations:

1) the smart meter may well be transmitting more than just once per day for only 2 seconds
2) the smart meter may really only be transmitting usage data to BC Hydro once per day, but to stay in sync with their system, they need regularly maintain communication with the HQ.
3) the EMF readings might not be coming from the smart meter's radio transmissions to BC Hydro. Rather, they are a by product of the meter's normal operations.
4) they are coming from something else entirely
5) the people producing these videos are faking the EMF readings to "prove their point"

Face it, it's unlikely any of these videos are being created by someone who's sure the meters are safe and are just wanting to prove it to the naysayers, only to be surprised by the results... they're made be people who've already decided to hate the meters for one reason or another and are looking for any reason to back up their fears. I suspect most of them have no idea how to properly use or read an EMF meter, either - probably something they bought from a spy store or Deal Extreme, turned it on, watched the needle move, and declared, "AH-HAH! S EE! CANCER IN THE AIR!"

[Soundy]

Well, you would need to prove the following:

1-there are "some type" of transmissions happening for more than the claimed seconds or minute
2-those transmissions are different than any other type of transmission in your house

Now, so far no one has been able to do so because we are talking about random youtube videos and no diffinitive proof or evidence that there is an issue.
Posted via RS Mobile
And #2 is the main issue: there are all manner of EM emissions all around us every day. Someone who doesn't know how to properly use an EMF meter may get readings from any of the following:

Standard house wiring
IF stages in a TV/cable tuner
IF stages in a radio tuner
Cell phones
Cordless phones
Driver stages in most types of monitors or displays
Neighbors' WiFi signals
In some areas, public WiFi broadcast signals (Shaw, et al)
Fluorescent lights
Microwaves
Most types of AC motors (fridges, air conditioning, fans, etc.)
Switching-mode power supplies in computers, phone adapters, chargers, etc.

So once your EMF meter detects something, you then have to determine whether it's actually different from any of these, and stronger than any of these... then explain how all of these other things you've been surrounded by all your life have never caused you a problem, but this one low-power intermittent signal is suddenly shredding your body from the inside out.

[Manic!]

Traum the general public get their information from the media and the system overall which sees people as cattle and treats it as a commodity, not as human beings. You have to watch out for yourself and ignore the onslaught of sheep that regurgitate the main stream deception.

Lookup DrMercola's shows on grounding pads Ive been using one for over a year started seeing its effects right away.... you can buy them locally too.

16:9 show - forward to the 4:40 mark.
WiFi in schools proven dangerous. - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN7VetsCR2I)



Definition of Sheep: 1. A group of people who lack the capacity for careful consideration, imagination, or individual thought, who thusly go with group and allow god awful trends and events to unfold and make us all miserable.

Oh no's all of Nanaimo is going to be covered with free shaw wifi.

[Traum]

Soundy,

Have you actually bothered to look into how those EMF meters/detectors are operated? It's an EMF meter, not a nuclear power plant. You don't need a rocket science degree to know how to use one. Depending on the model and its capabilities, for the most part, you either physically bring the EMF meter closer to the place where you want verify the EMF readings, or you point the antenna towards a general direction. When the number goes up as you bring the EMF meter closer to the smart meter, or when the number goes up when you point the EMF meter towards the smart meter, and the number drops when you move away from the meter or cover the meter up with aluminum foil, I think that is saying something.

You are free to come up with whatever speculations you feel like. None of that changes my first hand experience with them.

[Soundy]

Soundy,

Have you actually bothered to look into how those EMF meters/detectors are operated? It's an EMF meter, not a nuclear power plant. You don't need a rocket science degree to know how to use one.
No, but you do need a clue as to what an electromagnetic field is and how the meter works, and whether it's tuned to specific frequencies or is just reading broadband emissions.

Once again, your standard house wiring has an EM field around it. Motors do. Lights do. TVs, tuners, radios, and wireless devices of all types are surrounded by them. All have different frequencies, different harmonics, behave differently around various types of metals and enclosures... and all will show up on a broadband meter. It doesn't prove anything except that something is using electricity in the vicinity.

Depending on the model and its capabilities, for the most part, you either physically bring the EMF meter closer to the place where you want verify the EMF readings, or you point the antenna towards a general direction. When the number goes up as you bring the EMF meter closer to the smart meter, or when the number goes up when you point the EMF meter towards the smart meter, and the number drops when you move away from the meter or cover the meter up with aluminum foil, I think that is saying something.
Have you done this yourself, or is this just based on internet videos made by people with something to prove? How do you know they're not faking it? How do you know they understand what readings they're actually seeing? How do you know their meters are simply displaying the standard 60Hz EM field that exists around all house wiring?

[rsx]

hard to argue with these people who probably also believe chemtrails.

[Traum]

Once again, your standard house wiring has an EM field around it. Motors do. Lights do. TVs, tuners, radios, and wireless devices of all types are surrounded by them. All have different frequencies, different harmonics, behave differently around various types of metals and enclosures... and all will show up on a broadband meter. It doesn't prove anything except that something is using electricity in the vicinity.
You made a very good point here. This is why I mentioned in my original post that I've been spending countless hours over the years in my computer room without feeling any ill effects until the smart meter got installed. That was the only thing that changed, and that's how I eventually clued in on it being the trigger to my chest pains and nausea.

Have you done this yourself, or is this just based on internet videos made by people with something to prove? How do you know they're not faking it? How do you know they understand what readings they're actually seeing? How do you know their meters are simply displaying the standard 60Hz EM field that exists around all house wiring?
Are all the advocates from different places across the continent against smart meters faking it? Do they all have nothing better to do, and only wanted to prove something? Are they all as ignorant as how you are trying so hard to portray them as? When the sample size becomes large enough, I think it is illogical to simply brush them off the way you have been trying to here.

[sleepywheel]

Once again, your standard house wiring has an EM field around it. Motors do. Lights do. TVs, tuners, radios, and wireless devices of all types are surrounded by them. All have different frequencies, different harmonics, behave differently around various types of metals and enclosures... and all will show up on a broadband meter. It doesn't prove anything except that something is using electricity in the vicinity.


I think you've probably hit the nail on the head. If Hydro is going to use their meters at every household, apartment,etc., they have to be certain that their meter is not going to be affected by all the electrical devices that we may have in our homes. They will have to use a non standard frequency and that's where it may cause problems for some people. A flash at that non standard frequency may set off the problems. Just like flashing lights will cause some people to have epilepsy seizures and doesn't bother the majority of people.

Maybe the people that received the bigger than normal bills had something electrical that interfered with the smart meters, and Hydro would swear up and down that nothing was wrong with their meters.

[twdm]

Are all the advocates from different places across the continent against smart meters faking it? Do they all have nothing better to do, and only wanted to prove something? Are they all as ignorant as how you are trying so hard to portray them as? When the sample size becomes large enough, I think it is illogical to simply brush them off the way you have been trying to here.
In fact those people actually have nothing better to do.
Posted via RS Mobile

[Manic!]

Are all the advocates from different places across the continent against smart meters faking it?

Are all the people who see Bigfoot faking it?

[quasi]

Traum the general public get their information from the media and the system overall which sees people as cattle and treats it as a commodity, not as human beings. You have to watch out for yourself and ignore the onslaught of sheep that regurgitate the main stream deception.

Definition of Sheep: 1. A group of people who lack the capacity for careful consideration, imagination, or individual thought, who thusly go with group and allow god awful trends and events to unfold and make us all miserable.

The best part is you take everything you get from your conspiracy theorist websites and forums to be fact and call everybody else sheep. You're no different you just get your information from another source, the guys with the tinfoil hats. Seems legit.

[jackal]

i hope bc hydro charges 5k or more to the idiots that don't want these things installed on their houses. maybe that way it will bring down my hydro bill.

[Lomac]

Graeme,

When you are not the one suffering from these ill effects, it is easy for you to say what you've said above. But if you are willing to put yourself into some of these people's shoes, perhaps you could understand this a little better.

I happen to be one of these people that do not respond well to the hydro smart meter, and for the longest time, I didn't know it was the smart meter making me feel sick. What happens in my case is, the power meter at my house is located directly on the opposite side of my computer room's wall. For at least 7 or 8 years, I have regularly spend huge amounts of time in my computer room studying for school, working and playing on my computer, etc. without any issues.

Then BC Hydro started implementing the smart meter program, and a smart meter was installed at my house, replacing the old but perfectly functional analog meter that we had. At first, I was completely oblivious to any health effects these smart meters and the EMF might be causing, so I continued my regular routine in my computer room. But soon after the smart meter installation, I started noticing that I was getting chest pains and feeling nauseated, and I had no idea why. The chest pains and nausea continued for another week or two, and gradually I started noticing that the chest pains and nausea would come when I spent time in the computer room. I can probably withstand a good 15 minutes or so before the chest pains come. By the half hour mark, the nausea would make it bad enough that I had to leave the room. This comes directly from my first hand personal experience, and has been repeatedly proven using myself as the test subject.

It took another few weeks before I finally clued in on how the smart meter and its EMF emissions might have been the cause of me feeling sick. A lot of googling and YouTube watching later, I pasted up 2 layers worth of aluminum foil along the entire wall where the smart meter sits (on the opposite side). And what do you know? I don't feel sick in my own computer room anymore.

You can say all of this first hand experience of mine is all in my head. But I will simply tell you otherwise. I am perfectly fine with whatever radio signals and EMFs routers, cel phones, microwave ovens pumps out. But with this smart meter business, it is making me feel sick. People have different bodies that respond differently to external factors. Just because you don't get sick from it doesn't mean others won't.

FYI, using aluminum foil as a shield is ineffective unless it's actually grounded. Using two ungrounded, uninsulated sheets of aluminum is also as effective at blocking EM waves as using a loaf of bread.

[Soundy]

I think you've probably hit the nail on the head. If Hydro is going to use their meters at every household, apartment,etc., they have to be certain that their meter is not going to be affected by all the electrical devices that we may have in our homes. They will have to use a non standard frequency and that's where it may cause problems for some people. A flash at that non standard frequency may set off the problems. Just like flashing lights will cause some people to have epilepsy seizures and doesn't bother the majority of people.

Maybe the people that received the bigger than normal bills had something electrical that interfered with the smart meters, and Hydro would swear up and down that nothing was wrong with their meters.

Now you're REALLY reaching.

[Soundy]

FYI, using aluminum foil as a shield is ineffective unless it's actually grounded. Using two ungrounded, uninsulated sheets of aluminum is also as effective at blocking EM waves as using a loaf of bread.

But of course, once you've convinced yourself of what you think is happening, you won't believe anything you're told to the contrary, even by people who have an understanding of how these things work... :failed:

[Lomac]

Traum the general public get their information from the media and the system overall which sees people as cattle and treats it as a commodity, not as human beings. You have to watch out for yourself and ignore the onslaught of sheep that regurgitate the main stream deception.

Definition of Sheep: 1. A group of people who lack the capacity for careful consideration, imagination, or individual thought, who thusly go with group and allow god awful trends and events to unfold and make us all miserable.

How about getting information from people we know who actually work in those fields and do extensive tests on things like EMFs for a living? I trust the word of those people than those random conspiracy websites you love to quote.

[CharlesInCharge]

Only a video, like the kind I posted, is what gets people to understand, (and that was no home documentary either) not some scientific paper which would show my findings... little do sheep understand is that the government will flood false research to counter truth. These are the same people that wont bat an eye when they find out the BBC reported building 7 collapse 10 minutes before it actually happened.

[sleepywheel]

Now you're REALLY reaching.

I'm just pushing the envelope. You don't think Hydro would use the same frequency as your wifi or cell phone, would you? They haven't given out any info about frequencies. Hydro may know that it will only affect a few people and to keep on denying it will get more people believing them because they themselves are not affected.

I'm not going so far as to say Traum's problem is psychological, like some of you have, but I'm giving him the benefit of a doubt that there is something happening.

[Graeme S]

I'm just pushing the envelope. You don't think Hydro would use the same frequency as your wifi or cell phone, would you? They haven't given out any info about frequencies. Hydro may know that it will only affect a few people and to keep on denying it will get more people believing them because they themselves are not affected.

I'm not going so far as to say Traum's problem is psychological, like some of you have, but I'm giving him the benefit of a doubt that there is something happening.
Counterpoint: People use their cellphones next to each other constantly. Ever been on a bus? At University? In a mall?


Being able to use your device != some crazy conspiratorial frequency.

[Soundy]

Are all the advocates from different places across the continent against smart meters faking it? Do they all have nothing better to do, and only wanted to prove something? Are they all as ignorant as how you are trying so hard to portray them as? When the sample size becomes large enough, I think it is illogical to simply brush them off the way you have been trying to here.

In fact those people actually have nothing better to do.
Posted via RS Mobile

This is the thing: most of these people are SO convinced that someone is out to get them, making these kinds of videos becomes almost a mission in life; they literally do have nothing better to do (from their perspective of "better").

[sleepywheel]

Counterpoint: People use their cellphones next to each other constantly. Ever been on a bus? At University? In a mall?


Being able to use your device != some crazy conspiratorial frequency.


Cellphones are on different frequencies than what Hydro is using.

I'm not trying to attack anyone for their beliefs but give them the benefit of a doubt. If someone believes that they have a problem, I'm willing to listen but definitely won't call them a liar or tell them to visit a psychiatrist.

[Soundy]

I'm just pushing the envelope. You don't think Hydro would use the same frequency as your wifi or cell phone, would you?
Of course not. The meters would use a frequency allocated to the manufacturer by the appropriate regulatory bodies (FCC/CRTC) - I doubt BC Hydro has any say in what frequency is used.

The fact remains, the EM spectrum is extremely crowded, and every different technology must fit within it's narrow slot in that spectrum. IF, for example, these use actual 802.11a/b/g/n WiFi, then they would HAVE to operate within the same spectrum as all other WiFi devices, or very close to it. It would be virtually impossible that that frequency would cause large numbers of people issues, when no other WiFi signals seem to; the person's sensitivity would have to be to a band so narrow, it's ridiculous.

They haven't given out any info about frequencies.
Oh of course not; that would drive the privacy lot right over the edge.

I'm not going so far as to say Traum's problem is psychological, like some of you have, but I'm giving him the benefit of a doubt that there is something happening.
I don't doubt there's "something" happening, I just don't believe it has anything to do with the smart meter (at least nothing causational).

[Lomac]

I'm just pushing the envelope. You don't think Hydro would use the same frequency as your wifi or cell phone, would you? They haven't given out any info about frequencies. Hydro may know that it will only affect a few people and to keep on denying it will get more people believing them because they themselves are not affected.

I'm not going so far as to say Traum's problem is psychological, like some of you have, but I'm giving him the benefit of a doubt that there is something happening.

Smart Meters run between 902 MHz and 928 MHz. While BC Hydro may not reveal the exact frequency their machines run on, it's not that difficult to find out.

The UHF band runs between 300 MHz and 3 GHz. While I wont refute the theory that certain people may feel something through specific frequencies, it just seems odd that this very specific range is causing all these issues. The 900 MHz range has been in use by both amateurs (ham radios) and in ISM equipment for decades. I used to have an old cordless phones that also made use of this range.

[Manic!]

Now we have someone complaining about the free Wifi on BC ferries causing problems and how they need a Wifi free zone.

While debate rages on over the impacts of wireless technologies on human health, those who claim a hypersensitivity to electromagnetism have called on B.C. Ferries to provide options to limit their exposure.

People worried that wireless technologies may have a negative impact on their health achieved a small victory last week when B.C. Hydro announced modified smart meters would be available at a cost.

The effect of wireless technologies, like Wi-Fi routers and cell phones, on human health has become a contentious topic in recent years. Many in the scientific and medical communities have countered the assault on wireless with stiff resistance. Those who say they suffer call it a disability.

Seemingly routine tasks can be a challenge for Louise Campbell of Nanoose Bay, who says her sensitivity to wireless devices can make a ferry ride to the mainland a nightmare.

"For me, my day is thinking about how long I can spend in the mall, because there's Wi-Fi in the mall. If I'm going to a friend's house, I have to ask them to turn the Wi-Fi off," she said.

Campbell claims her condition causes her to become lightheaded when exposed to wireless devices.

A two-hour trip into the city can leave her fatigued for the rest of the day. Campbell avoids restaurants, coffee shops, movie theatres and anywhere she expects exposure.

The situation impelled Campbell to call on B.C. Ferries to provide a way to limit exposure to the ship's wireless technology while on voyages to the Mainland.

She is not the first to make the request, said B.C. Ferries spokeswoman Deborah Marshall. Marshall advised people like Campbell to reach out to their customer care department.

"There are some areas on the ship that the signals are quite weak. .. for example, the car decks," she said.

Christel Martin, the Nanaimo representative for Citizens for Safe Technology, said more support is needed for people with the disability.

"There has to be a Wi-Fi free zone," she said. "We're asking for equal rights, like any disabled person."

Health Canada maintains that "there is no convincing scientific evidence that exposure to lowlevel radiofrequency (RF) energy from Wi-Fi causes adverse health effects in humans."

Nevertheless, the debate will continue in the coming years as public Wi-Fi become more common and the world around us grows increasingly wireless.

The B.C. Centre for Disease Control capped off a two-year project in March, 2013 with the release of their Radiofrequency toolkit for environmental health practitioners.

The 371-page report broke down the myriad types of wireless frequencies used in Canada, the research on their effects and methods to avoid exposure.

"We realize that there will continue to be divergent views on the effects of RF. And we hope that scientists from across Canada can join us in contributing their knowledge and understanding to future integrative work in this enormous field," wrote Dr. Tom Kosatsky, the BCCDC's director of environmental health services.
- See more at: Wi-Fi sensitivity solution sought on ferries - News - Nanaimo Daily News (http://www.nanaimodailynews.com/news/wi-fi-sensitivity-solution-sought-on-ferries-1.546212#sthash.uKD5zbB7.dpuf)

Wait till Nanaimo gets free Wifi from show thru out the city. Guess she will have to stay out of Nanaimo.

[UFO]

The WiFi 'problem' has been around for at least a couple of years, first surfacing at schools I believe. Once again we don't know for a fact that its a problem and not a 'problem', but we know so little about the actual long term effects of these sorts of things because technology changes and advances so quickly, we can only speculate and make pretty good guesses based on what we currently know

[Gridlock]

The WiFi 'problem' has been around for at least a couple of years, first surfacing at schools I believe. Once again we don't know for a fact that its a problem and not a 'problem', but we know so little about the actual long term effects of these sorts of things because technology changes and advances so quickly, we can only speculate and make pretty good guesses based on what we currently know

And none of the following things that we didn't know a lot about the use of ever created a problem:

-asbestos
-thalidomide
-DDT
-Agent Orange
-radiation

On that front, although we're mocking this guy, and those people, I have to hand it to him that he came out on this issue..here, in a less than accepting website for these types of things and actually talking about it.

Each of the above items had people that noticed issues, then more issues and finally general acceptance after a lot of damage was done.

Do I need to know more? Oh hell yes.

I'd like to see some proof. Not some hokey youtube vids, but honest to goodness proof. As I said before, you need to basically show that transmissions exist, or background EM fields exist or 'something' exists and that 'something' is different from whatever else exists in the house.

[Soundy]

Smart Meters run between 902 MHz and 928 MHz. While BC Hydro may not reveal the exact frequency their machines run on, it's not that difficult to find out.

The UHF band runs between 300 MHz and 3 GHz. While I wont refute the theory that certain people may feel something through specific frequencies, it just seems odd that this very specific range is causing all these issues. The 900 MHz range has been in use by both amateurs (ham radios) and in ISM equipment for decades. I used to have an old cordless phones that also made use of this range.
Fuck dude, don't bring facts into this, there's no place for facts or reason.

Now we have someone complaining about the free Wifi on BC ferries causing problems and how they need a Wifi free zone.

"For me, my day is thinking about how long I can spend in the mall, because there's Wi-Fi in the mall. If I'm going to a friend's house, I have to ask them to turn the Wi-Fi off," she said."

If I was someone she was visiting, I'd just "click click" on the computer and go, "There, it's off now". Fifty-to-one the headaches ago away. Placebo effect FTW.

[Soundy]

The WiFi 'problem' has been around for at least a couple of years, first surfacing at schools I believe.
Which is odd, since WiFi itself has been around since at least 2000, and relatively common, if not yet widespread, at least half a dozen years ago.

How is it that something can exist and be in common use for years without causing problems for some people, yet start causing problems instantly when a single new piece of equipment is installed? This is not something like DDT where the (alleged) effects should be cumulative, or take a while to discover.

[GLOW]

Now we have someone complaining about the free Wifi on BC ferries causing problems and how they need a Wifi free zone.



Wait till Nanaimo gets free Wifi from show thru out the city. Guess she will have to stay out of Nanaimo.

White Noise - Trailer - YouTube

Pulse Trailer - Click To View - YouTube

[UFO]

Which is odd, since WiFi itself has been around since at least 2000, and relatively common, if not yet widespread, at least half a dozen years ago.

How is it that something can exist and be in common use for years without causing problems for some people, yet start causing problems instantly when a single new piece of equipment is installed? This is not something like DDT where the (alleged) effects should be cumulative, or take a while to discover.

I believe the context to that was that it was school wide WiFi that was implemented in an elementary school. Do we know if WiFi affects children in the same way it affects adults? I'm no expert in this field, but I believe the frequencies and bands used for WiFi have also changed over the years as well allowing for improved transmission speeds and distances. So it's best to compare like to like, the WiFi we use now is not the same as the WiFi that was around in 2000 (or maybe it is)

I'm not saying that there is a causation here, just that we don't know enough to say for sure that there isn't and its 100% placebo--the examples Gridlock gave illustrate this well.

[sdubfid]

Metal Plate, Cousin Eddie - YouTube

[Gridlock]

Whoop! There it is.

Class action lawsuit launched against BC Hydro over Smart Metres | Globalnews.ca (http://globalnews.ca/news/744042/class-action-lawsuit-launched-against-bc-hydro-over-smart-metres/)

Class action lawsuit.

PS: The spelling mistake in the fucking title of the article is a freebie from Global.

[quasi]

So dumb, no different then filing a class action against McDonalds for discontinuing Pizza. If I don't like what there selling I'm free to go elsewhere, it's not like there isn't alternate energy sources out there? What? They cost more, to fucking bad.

I'd be shocked if anything comes from it, mind you I never thought there was a snowballs chance that the HST would get repealed so anything is possible.

[Gridlock]

Would just like to add:

A Salt Spring Island resident...

say no more.

[CharlesInCharge]

Would you guys like to take an RS challenge and let us beam a few music videos through your body, namely through the "pelvic area"?
Maybe if you have infant siblings or cousins... through their skull... that would make it more exciting.
http://meeither02.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/enhancesound.gif?w=450&h=336

[Soundy]

Whoop! There it is.

Class action lawsuit launched against BC Hydro over Smart Metres | Globalnews.ca (http://globalnews.ca/news/744042/class-action-lawsuit-launched-against-bc-hydro-over-smart-metres/)

Class action lawsuit.

PS: The spelling mistake in the fucking title of the article is a freebie from Global.

From what I've been hearing on the radio all day (multiple stations), this resident, with a couple others, have filed suit... and HOPE to get it certified as a class... but it's NOT a class action yet.

Unless something has changed in the last couple hours...

Would you guys like to take an RS challenge and let us beam a few music videos through your body, namely through the "pelvic area"?
Maybe if you have infant siblings or cousins... through their skull... that would make it more exciting.
http://meeither02.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/enhancesound.gif?w=450&h=336

If I agree, will you shut the fuck up after nothing bad happens?

[CharlesInCharge]

Sure, you'll win this thread... heres the challenge.

A team will need to peer to peer network, two laptops using cantenna's (an antenna that focuses the radiation band)... on your end you'll have a hacked router with its wifi illegally boosted to beam across the water... the antenna will be placed through your body and will get picked up on the other side streaming videos.
http://i.imgur.com/ZPrzsmz.jpg

[Graeme S]

So your experiment to prove that normal household wifi is dangerous is to use something that is completely different from household wifi?

[CharlesInCharge]

The smart meter sending radiation in that video, in which the houses look more isolated and far away from any kind of base station, is sending radiation a far distance I would guess.
How is it that lots of wifi radiation is worse then a little?


edit

I wish the original of this video was still around... this guy sets up hotspots in busy locations using strong antennas... what is cut out from this version is where the news anchor is joking with the hotspot guy about standing in front of an antenna, in which the business man jokingly refuses citing health fears... even though hes radiating an unsuspecting population himself.

Radiation from WIFI San Francisco
_www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XAZtazxxZw

[Soundy]

So in other words, in order to prove that a pellet gun is dangerous, you want to shoot me with a bazooka. :pokerface: :okay:

[Graeme S]

To be fair, wifi is non ionizing radiation, so I'd still be up for the experiment. Mostly because the power will decrease significantly as the distance increases (wifi works on frequencies that are inefficient over a distance).

For those of you who believe that this kind of test is of a concern, remember that your phone when connecting wirelessly will send signals often as much as up to a kilometre away or more.



Now, don't get me wrong, it's entirely possible that there is a group of people who have somehow evolved an EM sensitivity. There is as yet, however, no proof of such. I would very much like to see research on those people who claim sensitivity to see if there is some way to either suppress or promote this sense, as it may be either advantageous or disadvantageous in the future.

[CharlesInCharge]

edit
You would stand infront of the antenna at the router base sending the radiation?

@Soundy
Some people will be sitting and sleeping at home most of the time where the smart meter will constantly be beaming into them. Would you like to carry a smart meter radiator equivalent in your pocket for 10 years to see if you develop any tumors in that area?
I dont think you'd be dedicated to do such a bet. Do you believe in a special set of scientists that say lots of wifi is bad as to suppose to little or is your dad like a cell biologist of sorts that knows these things?



http://www.earthcalm.ca/index_files/EMF_health_risks.htm#.UfRTcqzNrRY
The body conducts electricity that enters it. Studies have shown that when this happens, the body’s electrical processes are disturbed, and cell functioning is disrupted. The electricity in electrical wiring and appliances changes the atomic structure of the cell and breaks the bonds that exist in and between cells. This triggers changes in blood chemistry, induces free radicals, disrupts the cells ability to control PH levels, enzyme activity, cell reproduction, synthesis, functioning and energy transfer. A healthy and permeable cell membrane wall is needed for effective communication and coordination of activity between cells, tissues, organs and nerves. When exposed, to EMFS, the protein in the cell membrane wall is weakened and the cells react as though threatened by an invader and elicits a state of emergency (fight or flight response) in the body. In this state of emergency, non-vital processes are delayed, and blood pressure, heart rate and blood sugar levels increase. The cell enters into a state of emergency. Besides impaired communication and coordination, the reduced membrane permeability also makes it difficult for nutrients to enter and for toxins to exit. As a consequence, the body does not benefit from nutrients and healing therapies as it should, When the cell is in a state of emergency, instead of producing water and carbon dioxide, the cell produces hydrogen peroxide and carbon monoxide. In short, the cell begins to ferment. The state of emergency behaviour is passed on to each subsequent generation of cells.

[Soundy]

@Soundy
Some people will be sitting and sleeping at home most of the time where the smart meter will constantly be beaming into them.
Maybe you missed the part where they're active for all of 1.4s PER DAY. TOTAL.

Would you like to carry a smart meter radiator equivalent in your pocket for 10 years to see if you develop any tumors in that area?
I dont think you'd be dedicated to do such a bet.
Care to bet on that?

[CharlesInCharge]

What are you going to tell me your cell phone is the equivalent? because no one could verify you keeping a radiating device with you where ever you go.

Maybe you missed the part where they're active for all of 1.4s PER DAY. TOTAL.


Care to bet on that?So the constant radiation coming off the meter shown in the recent video totals to 1.4 seconds a day... face it your a sheep... just following what ever the government tells is good for you.

[Soundy]

What are you going to tell me your cell phone is the equivalent? because no one could verify you keeping a radiating device with you where ever you go.
Cell phones ARE radiating as long as they're on and not in "airplane mode" - they have to stay in constant communication with the cell towers or the whole idea stops functioning.

So the constant radiation coming off the meter shown in the recent video totals to 1.4 seconds a day... face it your a sheep... just following what ever the government tells is good for you.
If that's true, then your[sic] a sheep believing whatever BS you find on the internet.

Fortunately, I have a better-than-base understanding of how electrical current, radio waves, electronics, and these particular technologies actually work, which means I don't have to rely entirely on anyone else to tell me the "truth"... unlike you, who will blindly accept the word of random unknown people on the internet, who couldn't possibly have agendas of their own... right?

Edit: example: the picture with the Pringles cans - there's nothing scary about this. The router is outputting the same signal as always, it's just being focused... and the receiving device is using a directional antenna in the same way. This doesn't boost the energy, it only directs it - it's no more harmful than if you wrapped your hand around a regular antenna. It's not going to set anyone's skin on fire or bore holes through the body.

As for "radiation coming off the meter shown in the recent video" - what recent video? The only one I see on this page is the one about the guy beaming his own WiFi into Starbucks... which has nothing to do with the operation of smart meters.

As for your "earthcalm" link, that's talking about ELECTRICITY... like sticking your tongue in a light socket or getting hit by lightning. It's not the same thing as electromagnetic fields.

Links like yours love to bold the term "RADIATION" to make it sound all scary, because everyone knows "RADIATION" is a bad and dangerous thing, right? Well guess what? LIGHT is a form of electromagnetic radiation too. So you'd better just spend the rest of your life living in the dark... which is where you seem to like it anyway.

[CharlesInCharge]

Cell phones ARE radiating as long as they're on and not in "airplane mode" - they have to stay in constant communication with the cell towers or the whole idea stops functioning.

The ear in which people put their phone next to all the time, happens to be where tumors have been showing up in brain cancer cases in the last few decades.
You can not say there is a safe level even at lower rate because you cant possibly know what effects on the cellular (human cell) level. Your sheep.



If that's true, then your[sic] a sheep believing whatever BS you find on the internet.

Fortunately, I have a better-than-base understanding of how electrical current, radio waves, electronics, and these particular technologies actually work, which means I don't have to rely entirely on anyone else to tell me the "truth"... unlike you, who will blindly accept the word of random unknown people on the internet, who couldn't possibly have agendas of their own... right?

Exactly, you dont know the biologic side of it!!!

Edit: example: the picture with the Pringles cans - there's nothing scary about this. The router is outputting the same signal as always, it's just being focused... and the receiving device is using a directional antenna in the same way. This doesn't boost the energy, it only directs it - it's no more harmful than if you wrapped your hand around a regular antenna. It's not going to set anyone's skin on fire or bore holes through the body.

New router firmware would also boost the radiation level up to reach the other side of the water too... just like the corporate antenna around the city that are suppose to be safe.
Are you saying you would radiate your body for this bet still?


As for "radiation coming off the meter shown in the recent video" - what recent video? The only one I see on this page is the one about the guy beaming his own WiFi into Starbucks... which has nothing to do with the operation of smart meters.

In the article GridLock just posted... this is 1.4 seconds total?

Cusheon Lake Smart Meter install on Salt Spring Island
Cusheon Lake Smart Meter install on Salt Spring Island - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FSDdeXm8dQ)



As for your "earthcalm" link, that's talking about ELECTRICITY... like sticking your tongue in a light socket or getting hit by lightning. It's not the same thing as electromagnetic fields.

Its all about EMF and wifi is included.

Links like yours love to bold the term "RADIATION" to make it sound all scary, because everyone knows "RADIATION" is a bad and dangerous thing, right? Well guess what? LIGHT is a form of electromagnetic radiation too. So you'd better just spend the rest of your life living in the dark... which is where you seem to like it anyway.

Let us fry your balls with 2pac music videos then? whats the worry, you cant smell or feel it right?
.



edit
Found this comment in that news article.
You are terribly misinformed. Yes toxins (note: no apostrophe) from smart meters. It's called microwave radiation. Look it up. It's toxic at almost all exposure levels. In fact it can be more toxic at lower levels, and is certainly more toxic when modulated with a signal. This has been known since military tests in the 60s. There are thousands of peer-reviewed studies showing harm from microwave radiation at levels below current "safety" standards. Go to pub med and insert search terms such as "microwave, low-level, chronic" and learn. Instead of remaining in your state of ignorance, why don't you educate yourself and maybe you'll realize that if we don't all stand together against oppression, we'll all fall.

[Soundy]

The ear in which people put their phone next to all the time, happens to be where tumors have been showing up in brain cancer cases in the last few decades.
There have been sporadic stories of this. I've never seen anything that PROVES a causation. Also, this has nothing to do with smart meters - VERY different frequency ranges involved.

New router firmware would also boost the radiation level up to reach the other side of the water too... just like the corporate antenna around the city that are suppose to be safe. Are you saying you would radiate your body for this bet still?
Consumer routers are still limited as to how much power they can actually produce, and that maximum still has to be within LEGAL limits. The firmware will not let you increase it beyond the electronics' capacity. Also, increasing the output causes increased heat generation from the DSP, just as overclocking your CPU will make it run hotter. Do it too much, and the router will simply melt down.

Directional antennas will easily sustain a connection at that range without needing to boost power, anyway.

In the article GridLock just posted... this is 1.4 seconds total?
The guy with the meter even states ON CAMERA (8:45), "this isn't the only source, of course, there are other antennas around, people's cell phones". There's nothing there guaranteeing that the meter is reading ONLY the smart meter and nothing else.

Besides, for someone with a point to prove, it's not hard to fake a reading by setting up another source of EMR nearby.

Its all about EMF and wifi is included.

Holy crap, that entire piece is nonsense. It's obviously written by someone without even the basest understanding of the topics they're addressing. "Electricity" != "EMF", and "EMF" != "electricity". Different frequencies of both electricity AND EMF affect different substances (including the body) differently, yet they're simply lumping them all in together.

You give people crap for "believing government propaganda", yet you blindly accept the word of fearmongers who either have no idea what they're talking about, or purposely distort things to further their own agendas? :fulloffuck:

Your sheep.
What is your obsession with my sheep, anyway? You stay away from them, you and your oversized gumboots and velcro gloves. Sick fuck.

[CharlesInCharge]

If we raise $200, would you let us beam the whole Titanic movie through your brain and across the river? at 720p resolution. :D
This is like Darwins laws of nature... people that want to play with fire and go against biological science and evolution should suffer the consequences by eliminating themselves from the human population or by handicapping their offspring.

[Gridlock]

I could really use a map to follow along on all the leaps in logic of this conversation.

Like, what the bloody hell does the movie Titanic have to do with smart meters? Have you...had movies beamed through your head? Or alien anal probes maybe? Oh come on, we were all thinking it!

[finbar]

@ CIC
Please, if you think someone is "calling you out", don't use your primal monkey urges and throw feces at them. Instead, try using your (I hope) well developed forebrain and try to argue the idea rather than the person.
This way everyone can learn, agree, or agree to disagree.
Personal attacks will get you nothing but ridicule, so save yourself the effort. Also, when arguing please avoid ad hominem attacks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem), straw man arguments and logical fallacies
These arguments have a very weak foundation, will not hold up, and only serve to discredit your point.

[KingVR4]

anybody actually buy a reader to check the readings?

[Soundy]

Of course not, it's far cheaper and easier to pluck random YouTube videos that fit your point while ignoring those that don't.

[CharlesInCharge]

@ CIC
Please, if you think someone is "calling you out", don't use your primal monkey urges and throw feces at them. Instead, try using your (I hope) well developed forebrain and try to argue the idea rather than the person.
This way everyone can learn, agree, or agree to disagree.
Personal attacks will get you nothing but ridicule, so save yourself the effort. Also, when arguing please avoid ad hominem attacks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem), straw man arguments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman) and logical fallacies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy)
These arguments have a very weak foundation, will not hold up, and only serve to discredit your point.Youve mistaken me for a scholar and a gentleman :p

[Graeme S]

Youve mistaken me for a scholar and a gentleman :p
A rare moment where CiC speaks the truth.

[UFO]

Now, don't get me wrong, it's entirely possible that there is a group of people who have somehow evolved an EM sensitivity. There is as yet, however, no proof of such. I would very much like to see research on those people who claim sensitivity to see if there is some way to either suppress or promote this sense, as it may be either advantageous or disadvantageous in the future.

THIS. Those who are saying "you are crazy, no symptoms can possibly exist" become a barrier to new research which may prove otherwise 10, 20, 50 years down the road. We simply don't know enough right now.

The Effects of EMFS on the Body and the Impact on Child Development (http://www.earthcalm.ca/index_files/EMF_health_risks.htm#.UfRTcqzNrRY)

That article you quoted is a bit of a load IMO. If that whole cascade of events is going on, it would not be difficult to prove it definitively. To me it sounds like a reach: "well WiFi may affect this part, which may lead to that over time, which may cause this and that eventually, and if all of that happens then there may be a chance that it is harmful". They are just using smarter bigger words, but they are not actually saying anything new we don't already know, nor are they proving a causation.

[quasi]

Edited: CIC can believe what he wants regardless what my view on his posts are.

[KingVR4]

Radiofrequency Radiation: The Invisible Hazards of ?Smart? Meters | Global Research (http://www.globalresearch.ca/radiofrequency-radiation-the-invisible-hazards-of-smart-meters/26082)

good read, Canada should look at the results from the US since they were first to experience with smart meters

[Lomac]

Global Research...

:heckno:

[Graeme S]

I'm, not a university student any more, so I don't get access to journals; is there any way someone who is can get ahold of the full statement?

Scientific panel on electromagnet... [Rev Environ Health. 2010 Oct-Dec] - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21268443)

There's nothing more than quotes released, and the abstract is much more vague than the anti-EM people would like to admit: "Scientific panel on electromagnetic field health risks: consensus points, recommendations, and rationales."



As far as the Radiofrequency [sic] Radiation article, there's so much in there that just makes me cringe, even just from a stylistic point.

First, the title:
Radiofrequency Radiation: The Invisible Hazards of "Smart" Meters
The proper way to use quotes around Smart Meters is around the entire thing--it's the name they've been given. By only putting them around the word "Smart" it leaves an implication that the word smart is undeserved or improperly used. This mistake (or rather, stylistic choice) is repeated throughout.

It then opens with a quote from the Seletun Scientific Statement suggesting that new limits be proposed--though not why nor what research or evidence has caused them to suggest this.

It then goes on to say that:
The US nationwide program is “driven, in part by funding for the Smart Grid Program approved as part of the American Recovery[sic] and Reinvestment Act [AARA] of 2009.”(3) “There is great concern because exposure to microwave and radiowave radiation from these meters in involuntary and continuous. The transmitting meters may not even comply with FCC ‘safety’ standards. …These standards [are totally outdated and] were not designed to protect a diverse population from non-thermals effects of continuous exposure to microwave and radiowave radiation. Therefore, these ‘safety’ standards were not designed to protect the public from health problems under the circumstances which the meters are being used.”(4)
(Emphases added are mine)

I have bolded the areas in which they have used square-parentheses or quotes in order to slightly change or spin the quotes. In order:

"...as part of the American Recovery[sic] and Reinvestment Act [AARA] of 2009."
For those of you unaware, the sign [sic] in newspapers and other print media sources is used to indicate that this is a direct quote, and that any mistakes within are either intentional or were contained within the original source media. The fact that there is no typo here--which is often the reason [sic] will be used-- would seem to indicate that the author of this particular article doesn't believe that American Recovery is either the intent of this law, or that American Recovery is not necessary. Either way, it is pushing their mentality on an otherwise neutral statement.

"The transmitting meters may not even comply with FCC 'safety' standards..."
and
"Therefore, these 'safety' standards were not designed to protect the public..."
In each of these quotes, the word safety has been put in quotes, without any reason given for it. This simple and small change is used to undermine the idea that existing regulations are there to regulate safety.

"These standards [are totally outdated and] were not designed to protect..."
There is no reason why the words within the square quotes would be added, especially given that this is supposed to be a direct quote; when one is directly quoting someone and using this as evidence for why they are right it's not exactly a good idea to put more words in their mouth.




Then, in the next paragraph, it does absolute wonders. Allow me to post it here:
As Marti Oakley has just written, the best way to look at what’s happening is to: “follow the money. In late October 2009, the [US] Department of Energy announced the $3.4 billion in stimulus grants under AARA. Award selections were announced for 100 smart grid projects that are intended to lead to the rollout of approximately 18-million smart meters, 1-million in-home energy management displays, and 170,000 smart thermostats, as well as numerous advanced transformers and load management devices.”(5)
So we have now gone from 'the dangers of radiation' to a quote from a woman who is the host of TS Radio (I tried to find out what the TS stands for--no joy), and author of the PPJ Gazette (Also no idea what PPJ stands for).

I did read the entire article, and while some of its points may show some validity, the manner in which they're presented stretches reason a fair bit.

[Soundy]

I did read the entire article, and while some of its points may show some validity, the manner in which they're presented stretches reason a fair bit.

To summarize: the author comes across as someone with an agenda of his/her own beyond (or likely completely separate from) mere "safety concerns", who is simply (mis)using others' safety arguments to prop up that agenda.

Why would someone do this? Well, not that THIS is an actual theory, but just an example: who (safety and privacy aside) stands to lose the most from the proliferation of smart meters? Well, meter readers, for starters, who are seeing their jobs outright negated... and the makers and maintainers of the old analog meters, who are watching their market quickly disappear. If either group (or both, together??) were to, say, generate enough FUD around the new technology that they could convince utility companies and regulators to stop or even reverse their adoption... hmmm...

HMMMMMM.

I wonder if Vivan Krause (http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2012/02/09/vivian-krauses-conspiracy-theory-you-decide/) has looked into this at all?

[Lomac]

Radiofrequency Radiation: The Invisible Hazards of ?Smart? Meters | Global Research (http://www.globalresearch.ca/radiofrequency-radiation-the-invisible-hazards-of-smart-meters/26082)

good read, Canada should look at the results from the US since they were first to experience with smart meters

Okay, I'll respond a little more than how I originally did.

I'll admit I didn't read the whole thing, though I did skim from paragraph to paragraph and a few things stood out for me.

The US nationwide program is “driven, in part by funding for the Smart Grid Program approved as part of the American Recovery[sic] and Reinvestment Act [AARA] of 2009.”(3) “There is great concern because exposure to microwave and radiowave radiation from these meters in involuntary and continuous. The transmitting meters may not even comply with FCC ‘safety’ standards. …These standards [are totally outdated and] were not designed to protect a diverse population from non-thermals effects of continuous exposure to microwave and radiowave radiation. Therefore, these ‘safety’ standards were not designed to protect the public from health problems under the circumstances which the meters are being used.”

Smart meters aren't CSA approved because they aren't consumer products. They are, however, IEEE, IEC, and ANSI approved.

“Smart” Meters are a new type of electronic device that monitors electricity, natural gas, and water usage via radio frequency (RF or rf) in an invisible but dangerous range, between 2.4GHz [GigaHertz] and 5.8Ghz.

Wrong. They operate in the 900MHz range.

Plus what's so dangerous in the 2.4-5.8Ghz range? Funny, I've got routers that run in that range and I've yet to grow a third eye or an elephant tail.

In many areas, customers were given no notice that their meters would be changed, or the new meter was put in a day after a brief notice was sent.

Read the fine print of the contract you signed. I'll guarantee there's a section in there that allows your service provider to upgrade existing units without having to inform you.

Radiofrequency interference that causes malfunctioning of wireless equipment, such as Wi-Fi and Netflix (7) *Radiofrequency interference that causes malfunctioning of medical and critical-care equipment, such as pacemakers, wireless insulin pumps, pain pumps, ventilators, and baby monitors *Radiofrequency spikes causing appliances to break or malfunction, such as garage doors that won’t open or close properly

So much facepalm but I'm going to focus on just the pacemaker one...

Actually, no. I'm going to let the AARL speak for me:
Pacemaker (http://www.arrl.org/pacemaker)

Basically as long as you aren't standing inches directly away from the meter, you're fine.

Etc, etc.

You'll also dig up some interesting information when you start researching the different names involved in that article (and those of that website). I know everyone has a bias of some kind, but it's hard to take certain articles seriously when they have a history of harsh line towing.

[KingVR4]

thanks Lomac, just trying to be more informed

Radio Frequency and BC Hydro's Smart Meters (http://www.bchydro.com/energy-in-bc/projects/smart_metering_infrastructure_program/faqs/radio_frequency.html?WT.mc_id=rd_smartmeters_safet y)

Smart meters communicate using very low power signals.

Unlike other wireless infrastructure, smart meters use very low power signals – about one watt. This is less than 2 microwatts per square centimetre (μW/cm2) when standing adjacent to the meter. A microwatt is one millionth of a watt.

BC Hydro's smart meter signals are far lower than some of the strictest thresholds in the world.

Europe has some of the world’s strictest radiofrequency regulations. Switzerland, for example, has a precautionary limit of 4.5 μW/cm2 for highly sensitive areas like schools and hospitals. In comparison, BC Hydro smart meter signals – at the same distance of 20 centimetres (8 inches) – are less than 2 μW/cm2.

[Lomac]

Oh, look what I found in BC Hydro's TOS:
13.(d) - BC Hydro, but not the Customer, may test, calibrate, remove, install, substitute or otherwise change the revenue metering equipment from time to time at any reasonable time and the Customer may have a representative present at such time.

Also:
14.(a) B.C. Hydro may install at its cost at the Customer's Plant any equipment or device which, in BC Hydro's judgement, is required for BC Hydro use or convenience in exercising its rights, or carrying out its obligations under this Agreement and all such equipment or devices, whether affixed or otherwise, by BC Hydro at the Customer's Plant shall remain the property of BC Hydro.

14.(b) To the extent that it may be necessary, the Customer herby grants to BC Hydro, its servants or agents, for the initial term, any extension, and a reasonable time thereafter, the free and uninterrupted right to enter the Customer's Plant for any purpose related to this Agreement.

:derp:

[Soundy]

In short: if we're providing you power, then we have the right to dictate how it's delivered. You signed on the dotted line, therefore you will abide by this, or you don't get our power.

"Oh well, I didn't actually read the fine print" has NEVER stood up in court as a valid excuse, especially when it's not something unreasonable.

And again: nobody has the RIGHT to electric power, and nobody is REQUIRED to use BC Hydro's service. Put up your own windmill, or burn candles - there's always a choice.

[melloman]

^^ It's what happens when you have only 1 corporation supplying power. Working in the high-voltage power business, we've gotten used to:

Whatever BC Hydro wants, you give it to them. Or else you're SOL.

[Tapioca]

^^ It's what happens when you have only 1 corporation supplying power. Working in the high-voltage power business, we've gotten used to:

Whatever BC Hydro wants, you give it to them. Or else you're SOL.

How many jurisdictions in the developed world have competing electric companies? Look what happened when we let the chains off of BC/Terasen Gas. Lots of people got duped into signing bad deals for gas. But, I guess allowing bad choices is better than no choice?

There are many reasons why a government allows a monopoly for electricity.
Posted via RS Mobile

[murd0c]

If you don't like it run your house on propane like a lot of places up north

[Ronin]

Isn't this a pretty open and shut case? How is it that a judge hasn't thrown it out yet? It's in the TOS.

[Graeme S]

Isn't this a pretty open and shut case? How is it that a judge hasn't thrown it out yet? It's in the TOS.
Due process is, unfortunately, process. Can't just look at a case and go "HAH!" in a Krebapple way and then throw it out. As much as they may be inclined to.

[Spidey]

Lol. Traum and cic rambling bs in the same thread

[Graeme S]

Lol. Traum and cic rambling bs in the same thread
Thank you for your incredibly detailed and informative post. It's rare that people take so much time out of their day on Revscene to elaborate on their points of view in such precise detail and with such gusto as you.


I tip my hat to you, good sir.

[Soundy]

If you don't like it run your house on propane like a lot of places up north

Like I've said before, I have a friend lives up behind Boston Bar that's running his place completely off-the-grid, yet has internet access from no fewer than three different providers (local WiFi service, satellite, and Bell 4G) so he can view his home cameras remotely... runs his own power generation off a local stream (including some really brilliant engineering) and solar with a shitload of batteries for storage and some big-ass inverters... yeah, it took some time and money to set up, but he pays no electric bills, doesn't have or need an electric meter of ANY kind, and doesn't have to worry about anyone's TOS.

And to once again quote a famous TV character, "There is always choice. We say that there is no choice only to comfort ourselves with a decision we have already made."

People want their utilities spoon-fed to them, don't want to have to put in any effort... then complain when the people who DO put in the time and the effort and front all the money for the service, want to do something to make THEIR lives easier and more efficient. Well sorry, fucktards - suck it up, or ship out. Nobody fucking OWES you anything, least of all BC Hydro. You DO NOT have a Constitutional fucking right to electricity, you ARE NOT fucking REQUIRED to use BC Hydro's service, and you ARE FUCKING REQUIRED to abide by the TOS of any service provider you CHOOSE to use... be it for power, or cable, or internet, or phone service, or satellite TV, or...

[Spidey]

Thank you for your incredibly detailed and informative post. It's rare that people take so much time out of their day on Revscene to elaborate on their points of view in such precise detail and with such gusto as you.


I tip my hat to you, good sir.

anytime my friend. I didn't get to my post count doing it paragraph by paragraph.