[StylinRed]

just saw this on news1130


Tax us more, say group of doctors
Doctors for Fair Taxation say high-income earners have to pay their fair share
Rene Bernard May 12, 2012 20:19:38 PM

VANCOUVER (NEWS1130) - I want more taxes! That's a phrase we don't hear often.

But that's what a group of doctors is calling for. Doctors for Fair Taxation says high-income earners, such as themselves, have to pay their fair share.

Vanessa Brcic, a family doctor and researcher at UBC, is one of about 200 doctors who have signed on. She points out physicians are in a unique position to see tax dollars at work.

"It's not hard to see in our patient interactions the kind of ways a well-funded system can help," she explains. "Inequality in Canada has been rising since 1980."

She says there's misconception that tax dollars are misspent when we see long surgery wait-times.

"The reality is, is that it's because the systems are starved, it's not because the systems are incapable," she insists.

She believes political parties and organizations that take great pains to oppose increases in taxes are doing a disservice.

"It's a bit of a sneaky tactic to try to undermine these systems. The more you undermine these systems, the more you open the door to private health care."

She says research shows levelling out income levels across a nation produces better health for everyone.

The doctors may be on to something. The movement has spawned Lawyers for Fair Taxation and also Clergy for Fair Taxation.

:tears:`

[fobulaus]

Honestly, I would much rather see these people pool money together to start some medical research fund.. The government is useless with our money anyway..

[murd0c]

I will believe it when I see it....

[vafanculo]

The onion?

[snowball]

"It's a bit of a sneaky tactic to try to undermine these systems. The more you undermine these systems, the more you open the door to private health care."


similar to starving the beast, depends on how much you believe in conspiracies, deliberately underfunding healthcare and education to destroy public confidence in public systems and opening the door for citizen backed privatization of everything, who else would be most happy to see that than the provincial liberals and federal conservatives

[Culture_Vulture]

Honestly, I would much rather see these people pool money together to start some medical research fund.. The government is useless with our money anyway..
:heckno:
the last thing I'd want to see is public services getting any more bureaucratic than they already are

[Gnomes]

Honestly, I would much rather see these people pool money together to start some medical research fund.. The government is useless with our money anyway..

Although very good point, the pharmaceutical companies will just cock-block any super miracle drug that gets discovered in the end.

[drunkrussian]

makes me happy to see things like this

[bing]

High income earners already pay ~50% tax bracket, what does higher mean? 55%? 60%? They can always donate the money personally if they feel they earn too much.

[Meowjin]

High income earners already pay ~50% tax bracket, what does higher mean? 55%? 60%? They can always donate the money personally if they feel they earn too much.

5.06% on the first $37,013 of taxable income, +
7.7% on the next $37,015, +
10.5% on the next $10,965, +
12.29% on the next $18,212, +
14.7% on the amount over $103,205

Federal

15% on the first $42,707 of taxable income, +
22% on the next $42,707 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income over $42,707 up to $85,414), +
26% on the next $46,992 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income over $85,414 up to $132,406), +
29% of taxable income over $132,406.

[jackal]

here is what i don't get. if these people want more taxes why not just cut a check to the gov... and leave every one else alone

[TheKingdom2000]

Are you fucking serious? "high-income earners, such as themselves, have to pay their fair share."

Why the fuck should high income earners get taxed even more? (especially in Canada)
They already get taxed ~43 fucking percent. How much more do people want?

This is the biggest bullshit I have ever heard.
Everyone in my family who is in the highest tax bracket today worked their asses off to get where they are and as a result, they pay 43% of their hard earned money to the government so the government can spend it like fcuking idiots.

This doesn't make any sense to me. Doctors worked their asses off to get where they are and these ones think they aren't taxed enough? That is the craziest thing I have ever heard. They deserve the money they make. I really want to know why these doctors think they should be taxed more.

On another note, it blows my mind how people who make less money than other people think it's "fair" to tax people who make more money more. How about you get off your ass and work harder or go to school to find a better fucking job.
And don't even get me started on the able bodied people on welfare...

Fuck the lower income earners who believe people that make more money should be taxed more. 43% is more than fair. Fuck, this got me angry. Sorry for the profanity and rant.

[StylinRed]

I really want to know why these doctors think they should be taxed more.



its for the greater good of the national community. if me being taxed more means those who need it are able to continue getting healthcare treatment/ legal aid/ etc then so be it

some people are selfish some are generous and others lay in between its not surprising that these doctors are generous

their real point here is to point out that they feel the govt is sabotaging health care

[Alatar]

Are you fucking serious? "high-income earners, such as themselves, have to pay their fair share."

Why the fuck should high income earners get taxed even more? (especially in Canada)
They already get taxed ~43 fucking percent. How much more do people want?

This is the biggest bullshit I have ever heard.
Everyone in my family who is in the highest tax bracket today worked their asses off to get where they are and as a result, they pay 43% of their hard earned money to the government so the government can spend it like fcuking idiots.

This doesn't make any sense to me. Doctors worked their asses off to get where they are and these ones think they aren't taxed enough? That is the craziest thing I have ever heard. They deserve the money they make. I really want to know why these doctors think they should be taxed more.

On another note, it blows my mind how people who make less money than other people think it's "fair" to tax people who make more money more. How about you get off your ass and work harder or go to school to find a better fucking job.
And don't even get me started on the able bodied people on welfare...

Fuck the lower income earners who believe people that make more money should be taxed more. 43% is more than fair. Fuck, this got me angry. Sorry for the profanity and rant.

Actually, you're basically paying 30% of your income towards taxes if you're over the magic marker of 132,xxx yearly income. Not 43%. And I hope you're not factoring in CPP/EI in your "taxed income" to get to that figure.

[Pooface55]

flat tax rate is what I'd prefer.

I don't think its a tax problem. Its just the stupid ways these guys spend it.

[Hehe]

IMHO, our tax system is so inefficient and complicated that we created more loophole than the system intended to do.

My parents clears 7 figures a year and they have the luxury of hiring accountants and lawyers to set up a sophisticated but yet legal (albeit not exactly morally-accepted by the public) structure to reduce their taxes to the bare legally required level.

This is the part where I think the problem is with the riches. They have the resource to obtain help to make their tax structure so efficient that they are essentially paying less taxes than the rest and hence giving them an unfair advantage.

If we were really to address this problem, we should simplify our tax rules or at least design frameworks so that everyone has access to the same tax optimization.

[fobulaus]

Actually, you're basically paying 30% of your income towards taxes if you're over the magic marker of 132,xxx yearly income. Not 43%. And I hope you're not factoring in CPP/EI in your "taxed income" to get to that figure.

Hmm??

Provincial:
14.7% on the amount over $103,205

Federal:
29% of taxable income over $132,406.

If you are way above 132,xxx, your tax rate will be very close to 43%...

[TheKingdom2000]

Actually, you're basically paying 30% of your income towards taxes if you're over the magic marker of 132,xxx yearly income. Not 43%. And I hope you're not factoring in CPP/EI in your "taxed income" to get to that figure.

I should clarify. The marginal tax rate in BC at the highest tax bracket is 43%.
Depending on your actual income, your average tax will vary.

$100k = ~25% average tax
$150k = ~30%
$200k = ~34%
$250k = ~36%
(In BC)

The more you make, the higher the average tax gets, obviously.
Regardless, at the highest tax bracket your marginal tax rate will be about 43%

But, you are right. I made it seem like the overall income taxed was 43% at the highest tax bracket. My bad.

[TheKingdom2000]

IMHO, our tax system is so inefficient and complicated that we created more loophole than the system intended to do.

My parents clears 7 figures a year and they have the luxury of hiring accountants and lawyers to set up a sophisticated but yet legal (albeit not exactly morally-accepted by the public) structure to reduce their taxes to the bare legally required level.

This is the part where I think the problem is with the riches. They have the resource to obtain help to make their tax structure so efficient that they are essentially paying less taxes than the rest and hence giving them an unfair advantage.

If we were really to address this problem, we should simplify our tax rules or at least design frameworks so that everyone has access to the same tax optimization.

I completely disagree.

I don't know your parents, but based on their seven figure income I assume they are entrepreneurs? ie. they own their own business?
Now, when you own your own business there are special tax breaks you get. There are also many other ways to avoid taxes or pay less. ie. set up a trust.

Now you say they are going through loop holes and are finding ways to save tax. They are not. They are simply taking advantage of the opportunity that the government has provided them.

This is another problem with society. Society feels entrepreneurs should get taxed the most. Now this is where I disagree.
What a lot of people do not understand is the hardship, hours, and stress associated with becoming an entrepreneur.
Do people think it is easy to become one? If it was, there would be a lot more.

The fact is becoming an entrepreneur the odds are stacked WAY against you. There is so much risk and the probability of success is grim. Now ask anyone who started their own business? It is not uncommon for them to work LONG hours, pay themselves NOTHING, and they have the constant stress of bills, and they barely make ends meat. They will probably run at a loss for the first couple years before they start making any money.
Now, the ones that do not go broke or insane from this make some money. And some make more money.

Why is it fair that the people that had to go through all this hardship have to pay more tax? They are taking all the risk and are providing jobs and services for public as well as stimulating the economy. And the guy who works for parks and recreation BC gets paid $70k a year, barely works, dropped out of high school, and has literally no stress (ie. just cutting grass essentially and yes I know a guy in this exact situation) and then complains about entrepreneurs getting tax breaks?

Fuck them. They don't know the first thing about hard work or stress.

[TheKingdom2000]

Joe Rogan says it the best
Joe Rogan - Jealous & Dumb People - YouTube

[satek]

maybe have an optional box you can check off on your tax form if you want to be taxed more. Rather than forcing everybody from that tax bracket to pay more.

[Alatar]

Hmm??

Provincial:
14.7% on the amount over $103,205

Federal:
29% of taxable income over $132,406.

If you are way above 132,xxx, your tax rate will be very close to 43%...

5.06% on the first $37,013 of taxable income, +
7.7% on the next $37,015, +
10.5% on the next $10,965, +
12.29% on the next $18,212, +
14.7% on the amount over $103,205

Federal

15% on the first $42,707 of taxable income, +
22% on the next $42,707 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income over $42,707 up to $85,414), +
26% on the next $46,992 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income over $85,414 up to $132,406), +
29% of taxable income over $132,406.

The tax rate bumps up for income over that mark, it doesn't bump up for the ENTIRE amount of your income, only the portions where your income is in the next bracket. So your base taxable income if you're at, say, $37,000/yr would be 22.7% of your total income. The next 20,000 you make, would be that base 22.7% + another 7-14ish% (so ~30-34%) on only that 20,000.

It's a bit confusing, but it's not like being taxed on something when you exceed your exemption limit at the border where they just tax you the full rate on EVERYTHING you brought over instead of just the $200 you exceeded your $400 48hr limit.

[TheKingdom2000]

maybe have an optional box you can check off on your tax form if you want to be taxed more. Rather than forcing everybody from that tax bracket to pay more.

This is a legitimate idea. What would make it even better is if you could choose where the extra-taxed money would go.

[fobulaus]

5.06% on the first $37,013 of taxable income, +
7.7% on the next $37,015, +
10.5% on the next $10,965, +
12.29% on the next $18,212, +
14.7% on the amount over $103,205

Federal

15% on the first $42,707 of taxable income, +
22% on the next $42,707 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income over $42,707 up to $85,414), +
26% on the next $46,992 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income over $85,414 up to $132,406), +
29% of taxable income over $132,406.

The tax rate bumps up for income over that mark, it doesn't bump up for the ENTIRE amount of your income, only the portions where your income is in the next bracket. So your base taxable income if you're at, say, $37,000/yr would be 22.7% of your total income. The next 20,000 you make, would be that base 22.7% + another 7-14ish% (so ~30-34%) on only that 20,000.

It's a bit confusing, but it's not like being taxed on something when you exceed your exemption limit at the border where they just tax you the full rate on EVERYTHING you brought over instead of just the $200 you exceeded your $400 48hr limit.

I completely absolutely understanding what you're saying... Notice i said if you're way above 132,xxx, your tax rate will be very close to 43%...
For example, if your annual income is 500K... Your effective tax rate will be over 40% for sure (you can check the math yourself).

Actually, you're basically paying 30% of your income towards taxes if you're over the magic marker of 132,xxx yearly income. Not 43%. And I hope you're not factoring in CPP/EI in your "taxed income" to get to that figure.

That's what I don't think this is quite accurate for high income individuals (i.e. doctors)

[Alatar]

If you're at 500k+, sure, odds are you're also likely a "business" owner whether it's your own doctor's office/clinic, dental office/clinic, stake in a company, etc. and you're writing a LOT of stuff off when you do your taxes.

Still think you're paying $200k in taxes? Or are you paying maybe $100k in taxes and writing off the rest towards the lease, your transportation, items you may need for said business, etc.

The conversation of "taxes" and "higher" or "lower" can be addressed in too many different ways with too many different ins and outs that change the entire playing field completely. Probably a mistake that I even bothered joining in the discussion. :p

[will068]

Good intentions, but I do not like the idea of government handling more tax money. The smaller the government, the better.

[BoredAtWork]

Remember to add these to our "post" tax income

- Gasoline tax everytime you fill up
- PST/GST/HST whatever they are called for almost every dollar you spend
- cigarette tax everytime you light up
- liquor tax everytime you pop a bud light.

and by the way for all who you think RRSP, or tax "refund" is awesome, they took away your money all year and didn't even bother to give you interest. If you take that money and invested in a money market fund, at least you get 2% back to help out on your taxes.

The money is yours, you earned it with your abilities. The government should not have to withhold whats yours until it is time to collect.

Canadian government taxes are worse than ill-managed US banks.

Thats my 2 cents

[Hehe]

Why is it fair that the people that had to go through all this hardship have to pay more tax?

I don't suggest that people that worked their ass off should be paying more. As a matter of fact, I'd suggest that everyone should be taxed at an equal rate. Nevertheless, my parents have an advantage that's not given to the general public because they could afford to hire people to use (or even exploit) the loopholes that our complicated tax system created.

I won't go into details, but the structure allows them to pay lower tax (%-wise) than a guy flipping burgers at McD along with plans to expand far into the foreseeable future.

This is where the unfairness is at. My parents enjoy the public services/benefits just as much as everyone else do but they effectively pay less (%-wise) than the general public despite how our tax system is structured.

Now, let's say that we close all the loopholes and make a 20% tax rate to everyone. A guy earning 30k (24k after tax) a year still barely survives, while riches making 1M or more (800k after tax) still lives in a very good life.

So, riches aren't paying more, they still contribute the exact same share (giving out 1/5 of your income for all the public services/befit you enjoy) but the whole system become (at least) more fair to everyone.

[BoredAtWork]

I don't suggest that people that worked their ass off should be paying more. As a matter of fact, I'd suggest that everyone should be taxed at an equal rate. Nevertheless, my parents have an advantage that's not given to the general public because they could afford to hire people to use (or even exploit) the loopholes that our complicated tax system created.

I won't go into details, but the structure allows them to pay lower tax (%-wise) than a guy flipping burgers at McD along with plans to expand far into the foreseeable future.

This is where the unfairness is at. My parents enjoy the public services/benefits just as much as everyone else do but they effectively pay less (%-wise) than the general public despite how our tax system is structured.

Now, let's say that we close all the loopholes and make a 20% tax rate to everyone. A guy earning 30k (24k after tax) a year still barely survives, while riches making 1M or more (800k after tax) still lives in a very good life.

So, riches aren't paying more, they still contribute the exact same share (giving out 1/5 of your income for all the public services/befit you enjoy) but the whole system become (at least) more fair to everyone.

Its not a loophole necessarily. Theoretically, your parents hires people and create jobs. The government gives a tax break for people who creates business and stimulates growth. Granted if your parents actually don't hire anyone and do not create any business, it maybe taking advantage of the tax system.

If you tax these job creating business further than the guy who flips burgers, there is no incentive to create business in Canada, which in turn hurts the economy more than a mere tax break. (no business = no jobs = everyone sit on their asses and collect welfare).

[Hehe]

Its not a loophole necessarily. Theoretically, your parents hires people and create jobs. The government gives a tax break for people who creates business and stimulates growth. Granted if your parents actually don't hire anyone and do not create any business, it maybe taking advantage of the tax system.

If you tax these job creating business further than the guy who flips burgers, there is no incentive to create business in Canada, which in turn hurts the economy more than a mere tax break. (no business = no jobs = everyone sit on their asses and collect welfare).

No offense but this ideology that more taxes sacrifice job is utterly BS that companies/government want you to believe. I know it's a theory in economics

Business will only stop creating business when we reach negative return to scale.

If we eliminates *creative* accountants and lawyers, these talents would simply shift to other business or practices.

If my parents didn't spend money on these lawyers and accountants, they will simply invest or spend these money elsewhere. They won't sit on a pile of cash.

[Ferra]

funny this is coming from a group which will benefit from higher taxes...

higher taxes for everyone > more government money > more funding for medical care profession

[tonyzoomzoom]

the doctors don't need to worry about wanting to pay more taxes. Once the NDP's form government in our next provincial election, they will be spending so much $$ that there'd be no choice but to raise taxes...

[fobulaus]

If you're at 500k+, sure, odds are you're also likely a "business" owner whether it's your own doctor's office/clinic, dental office/clinic, stake in a company, etc. and you're writing a LOT of stuff off when you do your taxes.

Still think you're paying $200k in taxes? Or are you paying maybe $100k in taxes and writing off the rest towards the lease, your transportation, items you may need for said business, etc.

The conversation of "taxes" and "higher" or "lower" can be addressed in too many different ways with too many different ins and outs that change the entire playing field completely. Probably a mistake that I even bothered joining in the discussion. :p

Oh I agree with you.. Sure, if you're a business owner, you might only pay 35% taxes instead of 43%... But IMO that is 35% too much..

Lets look at it from another prospective.. Instead of percentage of taxes, let's look at benefits / total taxes (%) paid... Somebody who paid 100K in taxes will probably get back 1-2% per year in benefits.. They pay full medical, full HST/GST, full income taxes, etc, and get nothing in return.

Now look at someone who sits at home and does nothing.. This person pays no income taxes, no medical, but still gets paid (welfare) for doing nothing.

Ideally I think we should pay 0% income taxes.. Do I agree with government bailouts? No, not at all... But I do believe the government should reward people for their handwork and success..

Someone who studied med for 10+ years should be awarded $1 for every $1 they earn, not 55 cents.

[gars]

Oh I agree with you.. Sure, if you're a business owner, you might only pay 35% taxes instead of 43%... But IMO that is 35% too much..

Lets look at it from another prospective.. Instead of percentage of taxes, let's look at benefits / total taxes (%) paid... Somebody who paid 100K in taxes will probably get back 1-2% per year in benefits.. They pay full medical, full HST/GST, full income taxes, etc, and get nothing in return.

Now look at someone who sits at home and does nothing.. This person pays no income taxes, no medical, but still gets paid (welfare) for doing nothing.

Ideally I think we should pay 0% income taxes.. Do I agree with government bailouts? No, not at all... But I do believe the government should reward people for their handwork and success..

Someone who studied med for 10+ years should be awarded $1 for every $1 they earn, not 55 cents.

Where do you get 1-2% from? Even the person studying Med School in Canada had their education subsidized by taxes paid by everyone.

[fobulaus]

Ok if I make 250K a year and paid 100K in taxes, how much money will the government give me? What type of benefits would I be getting without paying full taxes for?

Assuming the government isn't in a huge budget deficit, every $1 they spend is $1 provided by the tax payers... If I paid $100 and everyone else pays $10, how much money do you think will be spent on me?

I know a couple UBC med students and they've racked up about 200K in bank loans for being in school for so long.. Overall tuition is around 100K+.. What type of subsidy are you talking about?

[gars]

I know a couple UBC med students and they've racked up about 200K in bank loans for being in school for so long.. Overall tuition is around 100K+.. What type of subsidy are you talking about?

yep, my sister graduated from UBC Med a few years back. UBC Med tuition is about 15k a year. I don't know the exact amount, but I'm certain that the government is easily spending 10k per Med Student per year. The amount is smaller for students in less specialized programs, and for undergraduate degrees, but all post-secondary education in Canada is subsidized by tax money. Some programs (especially in trades) even have grants because we are short people who are specialized in those fields.

Think about it this way, the government has sunk 40k into a medical student, who may or may not pass medical school, who may or may not end up working as a doctor, possibly in the states - and not pay any taxes. If your friends took out 200k in loans, they probably haven't worked a lot, meaning they probably haven't paid a lot of taxes. All this is an investment by the government.

[fobulaus]

Alright, I won't argue with you.. 10K a year it is... Now lets calculate how much taxes your sister will pay over the next 35 years.

[jasonturbo]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_GJz3bPFtDhc/TJsjmA1TYoI/AAAAAAAAAhU/VIqf8MkI_SU/s1600/socialism.jpg

Just to be clear, this wasn't racially motivated, just happened to be the first demotivational poster that came up on google search lol.

[Death2Theft]

Flat tax /end thread.

[bing]

Where do you get 1-2% from? Even the person studying Med School in Canada had their education subsidized by taxes paid by everyone.

I disagree that "everyone" is subsidizing it. The share of taxes paid by the bottom 50 percent of tax payers is actually really low and of what they do pay, most get that money back through services (i.e. health care). It is and has always been the small percentage of high income earners that are paying the majority of the income taxes. In the US, "the top 1 percent of taxpayers paid 33.7 percent of all individual income taxes in 2002".

[Meowjin]

because there are millions of people out there on welfare.

really guys?

REALLY?


Now look at someone who sits at home and does nothing.. This person pays no income taxes, no medical, but still gets paid (welfare) for doing nothing.

Ideally I think we should pay 0% income taxes.. Do I agree with government bailouts? No, not at all... But I do believe the government should reward people for their handwork and success..

Someone who studied med for 10+ years should be awarded $1 for every $1 they earn, not 55 cents.

1) Welfare is pennies.

2) No one wants to be on welfare, and the people that do are usually drug abusers/suffer from mental disabilites.

3) Success is not a good term. Because we often associate people who are successful who makes a lot of money, we think that we are attacking people who are "successful".

And for the record a doctor will still walk home with well above 6 figures, so don't cry that they are not walking home with their well deserved cut.

But if anything they should attack business owners/real rich fucks who hide their money offshore.

They are job creators yes, but if the market is there they will keep operating.

[fobulaus]

With the exception of people with mental/physical disabilities, no one has an excuse to not have a job. Doing drugs is not an excuse. These people "don't want to be on welfare", but they don't hate it enough to get a real job. You know how many bums I see around Metrotown in the mid-20s who are perfectly capable of getting a job?

There are more than just welfare that taxpayers are subsidizing... What about free medical benefits (this is not pennies), housing for low income individuals, food/shelter for drug addicts, etc... These are all things I don't want to pay for... If I wanted to do charity, I will donate my own money to people who are starving not because of their laziness or drug addictions.


And for the record a doctor will still walk home with well above 6 figures, so don't cry that they are not walking home with their well deserved cut.


Actually, doctors deserve to walk away with every penny of the 6 figures they're making. People who've made terrible decisions in their life, on the other hand, should not cry about not getting subsidized at other peoples expense.

[Meowjin]

Actually, doctors deserve to walk away with every penny of the 6 figures they're making. People who've made terrible decisions in their life, on the other hand, should not cry about not getting subsidized at other peoples expense.

Life is defined by luck, being at the right place at the right time and by a good family/upbring support. I came from a broken family, and was orphaned from a young age, I receive assistance from the government, my school is more subsidized then the average bear and I probably have to work 10 times harder than someone else who is going for the same goals as I do.

Again, you are just assuming everyone is starting off at the same advantage.

And there are a lot of bad doctors out there. And Unemployement is at 7.3 percent. A skilled professional or labourer who is laid off will not work an 8 dollar an hour job when EI pays more (which is what it's there for).

[gars]

Alright, I won't argue with you.. 10K a year it is... Now lets calculate how much taxes your sister will pay over the next 35 years.

My argument isn't that she will be paying more in her lifetime in tax. It's that our system helps those in need. When she is a student, she isn't paying tax. She has the potential to be in the top bracket for tax, but she needs help by having her education subsidized. Without that subsidy, she can't afford to go to medical school, and many people are in the same boat.

It's not even just about 10k a year. It's about being in school for 8 years, paying tuition, and not having the time to work much.

You bring up your friends who went to medical school. What if UBC was a private university, and medical school tuition was 35k a year? What if their undergrad cost 20k a year. Tuition alone would cost them 220k, not including living expenses. Without our semi-socialist system, they probably would not be able to afford to go to medical school without having their tuition subsidized by taxpayers. Yes, they will end up paying more taxes, but without this system, they will just be a middle class citizen like most people. You can't have one without the other.

[fobulaus]

^

Essential the government is investing in our future by subsidizing medical school.. Why do banks give out 200K line of credit to 1st year med students? For them, this is an investment that will give them a better return in the long run... Same idea with med school subsidization...

From a financial standpoint, what do you think a med student would do if they had to pay 300K to become a doctor but never have to pay a cent of tax for the rest of their life? I bet 99.9% of them would choose to have their tuition doubled. You could argue that some students would not be able to afford it, but I bet banks would increase their line of credit knowing their salary will nearly double in the future..

[fobulaus]

Life is defined by luck, being at the right place at the right time and by a good family/upbring support. I came from a broken family, and was orphaned from a young age, I receive assistance from the government, my school is more subsidized then the average bear and I probably have to work 10 times harder than someone else who is going for the same goals as I do.

Again, you are just assuming everyone is starting off at the same advantage.

And there are a lot of bad doctors out there. And Unemployement is at 7.3 percent. A skilled professional or labourer who is laid off will not work an 8 dollar an hour job when EI pays more (which is what it's there for).

I bet a med school student has to work 10 times as hard as me and you to be where they are. With our educational system in Canada, it should not be hard to secure a 25K job and affording your own basic expenses. These people are not the reason why our income tax rates are so high.

You had an unfortunate childhood but sounds like you're doing alright for yourself. This is actually the point I'm trying to make. I'm not okay with people who spend taxpayers money but make no contribution to the society. Our current tax system supports these type of people at the expense of others.

Now if you look at EI... This is a great system... Essentially we're all buying unemployment insurance and securing our own future. This is the way it should be. Now I wish if only CPP was the same way.

[gars]

^

Essential the government is investing in our future by subsidizing medical school.. Why do banks give out 200K line of credit to 1st year med students? For them, this is an investment that will give them a better return in the long run... Same idea with med school subsidization...

From a financial standpoint, what do you think a med student would do if they had to pay 300K to become a doctor but never have to pay a cent of tax for the rest of their life? I bet 99.9% of them would choose to have their tuition doubled. You could argue that some students would not be able to afford it, but I bet banks would increase their line of credit knowing their salary will nearly double in the future..

That's the issue, everything is an investment. The safe injection sites are an investment, their purpose is harm reduction - because without it, our health care system would be hit even harder.

Welfare, gov't subsidized housing, all these things are all investments. They provide people with a higher standard of living, they prevent slums from forming in our city, they help prevent people from resorting to crime to feed themselves.

Will all people on welfare ever pull themselves together to get a job and get out of this cycle, probably not all. But society as a whole benefits better with this system.

[jasonturbo]

There are people that come from broken homes and traumatic pasts that do great things with their lives. For the majority of the population who does not suffer from a debilitating mental or physical condition, there is really nothing stopping them from working two jobs, attending night school to upgrade, taking out a student loan, and getting into any university program they desire, or achieving any other goal related to being a functional and contributing member of society.

The "poor me" attitude is for people that don't want to work hard to make things better for themselves, drug addicts are far more selfish than any irritated taxpayer.

Keep giving these people hand outs and they will keep taking them... Forever.

[Meowjin]

I work 2 jobs, and go to night school. Thanks for the generalization.

Again "these people" are a tiny minority of the population.

[LIKEABOSS]

F U losers who think STEALING, err "taxing" the most productive people in society and giving it to the least productive is "fair." Sure, its fair if you're a welfare queen, on social security, or get some other kind of hand out from the government. Oh and of course, the vampires, aka "public sector workers" will conveniently help themselves to a huge chunk of said taxes, and so do the politicians and their buddies.

Bozos who argue for higher taxation are worse than slaves. These useful idiots (Mindbomber et al.) empower our overlords to milk us like the cattle that we are. We are taxed on our work, we are taxed on our food, we are taxed on our shelter-essentially we spend half our lives slaving away for the government and these idiots think thats not enough LOL. You liberal (really Communist) numskulls who believe that YOU HAVE THE RIGHT (through force) TO OTHER PEOPLES PROPERTY are despicable.

This Canadian (Western) attitude of entitlement disgusts me to the core. "Give me FREE HEALTHCARE, Give me FREE EDUCATION, Give me FREE WELFARE, Give me FREE DAYCARE, GIVE ME GIVE ME GIVE ME." Yet these numskulls never ask (conveniently), WHERE DOES THE MONEY COME FROM? Oh yea, it comes from "the government." What they're really saying is, "Let's confiscate wealth from the most productive (think hardest working, most intelligent) people in society so I can have more FREE STUFF HORAY.. Suckers!"

"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples money." -Margaret Thatcher

[goo3]

We have a tax problem in Canada? Last I checked, it's the US that ignored reality and let the ideology fools go wild. Why are we talking about this?

[jasonturbo]

For those of you that have never done the math... tax rates by province.

(These tax rates reflect Federal and Provincial Income Taxes combined with Federal and Provincial Sales Taxes, based on the high possible tax bracket, and based on paying only that maximum rate applicable, as doing the math for each and every level of taxation would require me to establish some sort of fixed income level for all provinces and spend more time screwing around with a calculator.)

Alberta: 43%
BC: 55.7%
MB: 58.7%
NB: 56.3%
NL: 55.3%
NWT: 48.05%
NS: 65%
NU: 45.5%
ON: 53.6%
PEI: 61.2%
QC: 67.975%
SK: 54%
YK: 46.76%

For an average national rate of 54.69% if you're making big money.

Don't forget other taxes the governement collects, such as fuel tax, recycling taxes etc.

And some of you support paying MORE taxes???

So take NS for instance, let's play the tax game:

Income tax rates are as follows:

So let's say Johnny Fisherman grosses 59180$
- Fed/Prov Income Tax $14,830
- CPP $2,306.70 (Taxes)
- EI Premiums $839.97 (More taxes)

Leaving Johnny with $41203.33
- PST @10% $4120.33
- GST @5% $2060.16

Leaving poor Johnny with $35022.84, he gets to keep just over 59% of his gross income.. and again that's before any other taxes or public services he has to pay for.

Now to really put this in perspective,

Let's say Johnny doesn't want to work, cause he's a lazy drunk. So Johnny bucks the EI system as many people do... Let's base this on Johnny working 19 weeks of the year.

Based on the yearly income above, he makes about 1138$/week, so 19 weeks (760 hours) = $21623.46.

He would qualify for the maximum rate of 485$/week, for 22 weeks.

Johnny's revised gross income is as follows:
Income earned: $21623.46
EI Income: $10670

Deductions are as follows:
- CPP $897.11 (EI income exempt)
- EI Premiums $384.90 (EI income exempt)
- Fedeal/Provincial Income Tax $5625.13

Leaving Johnny with 25386.32
- PST @10% $2538.63
- GST @5% $1269.31

Leaving poor Johnny with 21578.38$, he gets to keep almost 67% of his taxable income this time, though 33% of that income was courtesy of the EI program... which also happens to be almost exactly what he paid in taxes.

So Johnny has two options:

Option 1:
Work 2080 hours
Take home $35022.84 of "true income" (Based on the PST/GST being an absolute tax)

Option 2:
Work 760 hours
Take home $21578.38 of "true income"

So now for the best part

Johnny could work 36.53% of a standard calendar year and take home 61.61% of the pay.

Another way to look at this would be to say his net hourly wage working the whole year is $16.84/hr, and bucking the system it would be $28.39/hr... jeez only a 68% increase.

Yeah, socialism is great.
Disclaimer: I am not an accountant, if there is small errors here and there I don't care, feel free to point them out though if it makes you feel better.

[bing]

My argument isn't that she will be paying more in her lifetime in tax. It's that our system helps those in need. When she is a student, she isn't paying tax. She has the potential to be in the top bracket for tax, but she needs help by having her education subsidized. Without that subsidy, she can't afford to go to medical school, and many people are in the same boat.

It's not even just about 10k a year. It's about being in school for 8 years, paying tuition, and not having the time to work much.

You bring up your friends who went to medical school. What if UBC was a private university, and medical school tuition was 35k a year? What if their undergrad cost 20k a year. Tuition alone would cost them 220k, not including living expenses. Without our semi-socialist system, they probably would not be able to afford to go to medical school without having their tuition subsidized by taxpayers. Yes, they will end up paying more taxes, but without this system, they will just be a middle class citizen like most people. You can't have one without the other.

I disagree and I think you're opinions are out to lunch. The "subsidy" you speak of is easily repaid through tax dollars within years of working as they would be in the highest tax bracket (I believe it is must higher than the 43% people are posting so please ask an accountant). In fact, it is probably more beneficial that society provides this "benefit" so that we have enough medical doctors to service the rest of the population.

As for tuition, 220k may SEEM expensive, but in the big scheme of things it isn't. Have you ever heard of a student needing to come up with the full amount year after year? There is always scholarships and loans that can be secured. What a big assumption to think that if they did not get the help of our semi-socialist system, they would basically remain as regular "middle class" people because they couldn't afford tuition, yet people in the States seem to have no problem attending med school.

[MindBomber]

F U losers who think STEALING, err "taxing" the most productive people in society and giving it to the least productive is "fair." Sure, its fair if you're a welfare queen, on social security, or get some other kind of hand out from the government. Oh and of course, the vampires, aka "public sector workers" will conveniently help themselves to a huge chunk of said taxes, and so do the politicians and their buddies.

Bozos who argue for higher taxation are worse than slaves. These useful idiots (Mindbomber et al.) empower our overlords to milk us like the cattle that we are. We are taxed on our work, we are taxed on our food, we are taxed on our shelter-essentially we spend half our lives slaving away for the government and these idiots think thats not enough LOL. You liberal (really Communist) numskulls who believe that YOU HAVE THE RIGHT (through force) TO OTHER PEOPLES PROPERTY are despicable.

This Canadian (Western) attitude of entitlement disgusts me to the core. "Give me FREE HEALTHCARE, Give me FREE EDUCATION, Give me FREE WELFARE, Give me FREE DAYCARE, GIVE ME GIVE ME GIVE ME." Yet these numskulls never ask (conveniently), WHERE DOES THE MONEY COME FROM? Oh yea, it comes from "the government." What they're really saying is, "Let's confiscate wealth from the most productive (think hardest working, most intelligent) people in society so I can have more FREE STUFF HORAY.. Suckers!"

"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples money." -Margaret Thatcher

I find it amusing that you site my views as an example in your argument, I have not posted in this thread and I have not discussed my views on taxation rates on this forum (or any other) before. When people make assumptions the result is more often than not inaccurate, and this is no exception.

For the record.
I support the public health care system. I believe access to health care is a fundamental human right.
I support subsidized education. Without subsidies education costs would burden students to the extent that many may choose to not pursue post-secondary.
I do not support free or subsidized child care, or even child/dependent (unless the dependent is so because of illness/disability) tax credits. Before having children a person should take into consideration cost, and be prepared to shoulder that burden alone.
I do not support the dysfunctional welfare system that exists today. Dramatic reforms are necessary, and should be possible without significant difficulty.

[Ferra]

For those of you that have never done the math... tax rates by province.

(These tax rates reflect Federal and Provincial Income Taxes combined with Federal and Provincial Sales Taxes, based on the high possible tax bracket, and based on paying only that maximum rate applicable, as doing the math for each and every level of taxation would require me to establish some sort of fixed income level for all provinces and spend more time screwing around with a calculator.)

Alberta: 43%
BC: 55.7%
MB: 58.7%
NB: 56.3%
NL: 55.3%
NWT: 48.05%
NS: 65%
NU: 45.5%
ON: 53.6%
PEI: 61.2%
QC: 67.975%
SK: 54%
YK: 46.76%

For an average national rate of 54.69% if you're making big money.

Don't forget other taxes the governement collects, such as fuel tax, recycling taxes etc.

And some of you support paying MORE taxes???

So take NS for instance, let's play the tax game:

Income tax rates are as follows:

So let's say Johnny Fisherman grosses 59180$
- Fed/Prov Income Tax $14,830
- CPP $2,306.70 (Taxes)
- EI Premiums $839.97 (More taxes)

Leaving Johnny with $41203.33
- PST @10% $4120.33
- GST @5% $2060.16

Leaving poor Johnny with $35022.84, he gets to keep just over 59% of his gross income.. and again that's before any other taxes or public services he has to pay for.

Now to really put this in perspective,

Let's say Johnny doesn't want to work, cause he's a lazy drunk. So Johnny bucks the EI system as many people do... Let's base this on Johnny working 19 weeks of the year.

Based on the yearly income above, he makes about 1138$/week, so 19 weeks (760 hours) = $21623.46.

He would qualify for the maximum rate of 485$/week, for 22 weeks.

Johnny's revised gross income is as follows:
Income earned: $21623.46
EI Income: $10670

Deductions are as follows:
- CPP $897.11 (EI income exempt)
- EI Premiums $384.90 (EI income exempt)
- Fedeal/Provincial Income Tax $5625.13

Leaving Johnny with 25386.32
- PST @10% $2538.63
- GST @5% $1269.31

Leaving poor Johnny with 21578.38$, he gets to keep almost 67% of his taxable income this time, though 33% of that income was courtesy of the EI program... which also happens to be almost exactly what he paid in taxes.

So Johnny has two options:

Option 1:
Work 2080 hours
Take home $35022.84 of "true income" (Based on the PST/GST being an absolute tax)

Option 2:
Work 760 hours
Take home $21578.38 of "true income"

So now for the best part

Johnny could work 36.53% of a standard calendar year and take home 61.61% of the pay.

Another way to look at this would be to say his net hourly wage working the whole year is $16.84/hr, and bucking the system it would be $28.39/hr... jeez only a 68% increase.

Yeah, socialism is great.
Disclaimer: I am not an accountant, if there is small errors here and there I don't care, feel free to point them out though if it makes you feel better.
Taxation structure usually reflect the social values and cultures of the country
We have progressive tax the way it is because we want everyone to be able to afford basic necessities such as food and shelters ($20-30K) (reason why things like milk and groceries have no sales tax)
We want to help the poor and unfortunate even if that means "stealing" some luxury from the richer... unfortunately, you can't always distinguish between "poor and unfortunate" from the lazy bunch


Your example isn't entirely accurate either because to receive EI payment, Johnny has to be actively looking for jobs, and he will have to attend EI classes and sessions. (many people rather work 8 hours than go to class for 8 hours :fuckthatshit:)
EI also has a very low cap, barely enough to pay for basic food and shelter for most people.
The system is not perfect, but it is designed to help the unfortunate and filter out the lazy.

[jasonturbo]

Your example isn't entirely accurate either because to receive EI payment, Johnny has to be actively looking for jobs, and he will have to attend EI classes and sessions. (many people rather work 8 hours than go to class for 8 hours :fuckthatshit:)
EI also has a very low cap, barely enough to pay for basic food and shelter for most people.
The system is not perfect, but it is designed to help the unfortunate and filter out the lazy.

Actually Johnny does not need to be actively seeking employment when he is laid off, he just has to be able to provide evidence to support that he has been actively seeking employment. Emails showing you submitted resumes, business cards, references, etc... pretty easy to fake that one, especially when you can use friends an family as references... so you apply at places that would never hire you, and even if you get a call a back from one of the perspective employers, you can just turn it down and the government will likely never find out. So what if you spend 10 minutes a day sending out emails to cover your ass, it's still not exactly a PITA.

You do not HAVE TO attend EI classes/sessions, it's only if you are selected which seems to be very rare. I only know of one person that has ever actually been called in to attend one of these courses, and it was a 12 week long drywall course and that was back in the 90's.

I have worked with dozens, if not hundreds of people who systematically abuse the EI system as I described, some of them also work under the table to supplement their income... some are happy and willing to make the 450$/week as they are content in their low-cost lifestyle.

EI cap is low, by Vancouver standards and by the standards of people that actually have any ambition. If you live in small towns or Eastern Canada where housing is 1/10th the cost of Vancouver, it becomes much easier to live off much less. There is people all over Canada that are content with the low 450$ weekly EI payments. Also consider in some parts of Canada (Like PEI) minimum wage is 10$/hour, based on a 40 hour workweek you are only going to gross 400$ per week.. less than max EI payment of 450$ which is NET btw.. another reason why people abuse the system. I know you wouldn't qualify for max benifits @ 10$/hour, but this is a reason why people "buy their stamps".

I also disagree that "most people" would rather work 8 hours than go to school 8 hours, if they are the type of people that abuse EI, they would probably rather sit there and do nothing for 8 hours then have to worry about actually doing some kind of work.

Maybe it's a little different in BC, but for Alberta and the Maritimes, I can assure you that very few people end up in these EI courses.. I only know of one person that has.. and there is probably a combined thousand years of EI abuse amongst only a small portion of the people I work with lol. (Yes they have jobs now, but when this project ends they will be wetting themselves at the idea of a 9 month paid vacation)

The system is easily abused.

[carisear]

Actually Johnny does not need to be actively seeking employment when he is laid off, he just has to be able to provide evidence to support that he has been actively seeking employment. Emails showing you submitted resumes, business cards, references, etc... pretty easy to fake that one, especially when you can use friends an family as references... so you apply at places that would never hire you, and even if you get a call a back from one of the perspective employers, you can just turn it down and the government will likely never find out. So what if you spend 10 minutes a day sending out emails to cover your ass, it's still not exactly a PITA.




I remember working retail at a mall years ago, and we'd get the same people every few months dropping off a resume, grabbing a business card, and leave. they didn't even try to get the job -- the mall is the perfect place to 'actively seek employment'

[Over9K]

Asians seem to have a lot of money and don't seem to care when they crash cars.

I say us Canadians tax them more, not like most of them even do their taxes properly or live like a true citizen.

[Meowjin]

your avatar is fucking offensive you piece of shit

[DasHooch]

These doctors are dumb. Are they asking for extra tax on income over some arbitrary number: $XXX,xxx.

How about the government pays them less. Imagine healthcare costs dropping.

Imagine companies phoning up their lawyers' office and saying, 'Sorry, we're not interested in paying you that much. We're starting our own little law department, paying $20 an hour.

Doctors and trial lawyers get paid a lot of money because they have you with your pants down, sometimes literally. If you don't pay, you're boned, you'll go to prison, you'll die, you'll suffer a gruesome death.

There are so many trying to get into these professions. Why do we treat them at such a premium? Build a bigger classroom!

Imagine companies ditching their CEOs, and hiring the guys that say 'I'll do that for half what he's paid.'

Crazy concepts here. I must have no idea how the economic engine is making my life better.

[Over9K]

your avatar is fucking offensive you piece of shit

Google what it means.