[CP.AR]

Discuss:

Why Honda Is In Even More Trouble Than You Think [Deep Thoughts] (http://blog.caranddriver.com/why-honda-is-in-even-more-trouble-than-you-think-deep-thoughts/)

[freakshow]

I think we've all given up on Honda already :(

[inv4zn]

Was recently in a Honda showroom waiting for some service to be done, and looked around. The only worthwhile thing to look at was the Civic SI, and maybe the Fit.

The cr-z is useless, the accord is now ridiculously overweight, the crosstour is :heckno:. Even recent Acuras as not as desirable anymore due to the horrible beak.

Honda still has a loyal following due to the cars it USED to make, but as everyone else believes, are not heading to a good direction.

The ONLY thing it has going for itself is that its cars are STILL more interesting tha Toyota's. But that's not saying much.

[bloodmack]

can't believe its taken people this long to realize that hondas are shit now.

[Harvey Specter]

The Honda lineup is quite depressing and the cars are all blah. It's no wonder why Kia is becoming popular, just look at their lineup.

[Yodamaster]

See: safety standards and economy regs.

As with a couple other manufacturers, Honda has lost the way. They've concentrated on adding technology and with that, losing the pure road feel that you got in older cars.

Honda has always tried to stay humble, but recently that has been lost, and has been replaced with something that we don't recognize or love.

Some say that the most valued designs of today are those that have already run their course, and I think that this is the period in time where we need those core values back.

Companies are focusing on what the next trend will be instead of keeping the seat of your pants feeling in every car that they make.

[Traum]

Honda still has a loyal following due to the cars it USED to make, but as everyone else believes, are not heading to a good direction.

The ONLY thing it has going for itself is that its cars are STILL more interesting tha Toyota's. But that's not saying much.
I dunno if that is still the case. It is true that Toyota's line up still consists of mostly boring vanilla flavoured cars, but their current CEO (Akio Toyoda-san) is smart enough to recognize their mistakes and actively do something about it. For example, Toyota's current portfolio has the Lexus LFA, IS-F, Scion FR-S / Subie BRZ twins, etc.

But what has Honda done? Killed off the S2k and Integra/RSX with no successor in the plans (even as a lower production halo car). The Civic Si has been neutered and mutilated again and again. The CRZ is nothing but a dud.

:failed:

[Spectre_Cdn]

Honda needs leadership like Akio Toyoda, who understands the passion in driving.

Until then, all Honda has is the V6-Hybrid, AWD, American-designed boat. At least Honda isn't defacing the Type-R badge with any of its junk models.

As posted on JNC, the mindset of Honda right now is ridiculous; it's idea of progression is leaving the past behind.. the past that made it successful. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQkGBCqEg-M

[E-40six]

as Soichiro Honda said

“If Honda does not race there is no Honda.”

[tofu1413]

only reason why hondas are still selling are because of the awesome hondas of the past.


the pre 00' civics were great cars.
80's-90's hondas were the greatest.

the company really started to die when they pulled the plug on several of their sportier cars...

their R&D nowadays seems to be worse and worse by the year imo..

what happened to all the exciting hondas? even the SOHC motor'ed Si's were nice to drive.

[Kidnapman]

I beg to differ guys...
Temple of VTEC Rumors and News - The bags come off! 2013 Accord plug-in Hybrid revealed in Torrance (http://vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=1069914)
:fuckyea:
http://stblogs.automotive.com/files/2012/06/2013-Honda-Accord-Plug-In-Hybrid-Spy-Shot-02-623x389.jpg 2013 Accord

[white rocket]

as Soichiro Honda said

“If Honda does not race there is no Honda.”

That just about sums it up. My loyalities to Honda lie with the past, not the present.

[mercyboy]

Honda are still very good vehicle, they last longer than other competition out there,80-90's were like a good era in HONDA marketing...I just blame on lack of design in making new models...they don't stand out now unlike Kia and Hyundai..They should put in more ideas and thoughts in the design...

But still Honda did make very nice model that are now history that people in revscene still have and love....

[godwin]

Honestly car enthusiasts make up a small port Honda's revenue. In all honestly the move to 4 cylinder engines might play into Honda's hand.

[eurochevy]

The Honda lineup is quite depressing and the cars are all blah. It's no wonder why Kia is becoming popular, just look at their lineup.

im also happy that people are finally realizing that honda makes crap cars now

[godwin]

Honda still race in Indy, GT Racing, Motobike etc.. just because they are not in F1 doesn't mean they are not racing.

Their current problem is they are chasing a larger audience than ignore car enthusiasts... well if you think about their Odyssey is handles better than their competitor's minivan.

as Soichiro Honda said

“If Honda does not race there is no Honda.”

[PJ]

The Honda lineup is quite depressing and the cars are all blah. It's no wonder why Kia is becoming popular, just look at their lineup.
+1

im also happy that people are finally realizing that honda makes crap cars now

Honda doesn't make crap cars. They make boring cars. They just haven't been keeping up with their competitors, namely the Koreans.

For the price of a mid-model Civic, you can get a fully loaded Sonata or Optima with double sunroof, heated leather, navi, back up cam, push start, the list goes on. Not to mention free financing. The new Kias/Hyundais also look way more sleek and modern compared to the Civic's depressing look.

Lot of Hondas in my history of cars, (still driving a beater EL that's running strong), but if I was in the market for a new low cost sedan right now, I'd go with Kia/Hyundai in a heartbeat.

[StylinRed]

the CRV is pretty good in person better than it ever was imo

and people seem to still love driving the civic (although its ugly imo)

other than that :/

[CP.AR]

let's not all forget...

Honda is still quite active in racing, especially in SuperGT

HONDA HSV-010 GT

[Great68]

Honestly car enthusiasts make up a small port Honda's revenue. In all honestly the move to 4 cylinder engines might play into Honda's hand.

Except that these days 4-cylinder turbos are becoming the norm. Unless Honda gets on the turbo train soon, I think that they'll fade away.

[JoshuaWong]

I am a big Honda fan, loved the NSX and S2000 and I would still love to drive an ITR or CTR... I wouldn't hesitate to trade my FRS & M3 for a NSX or S2000, assuming they still sell them as new cars. :okay:

[loong]

I agree that Honda has lost their ways in terms of producing cars that feel alive and worth driving. However, as an employee of a Honda dealership the amount of new car buyers that pass through the service department is fairly impressive. Civics and CRV's are being delivered by the hour, and in Honda's point of view that's all the matters; money.

Honda has established themselves in the general public's eyes as one of the most reliable car manufactures next to Toyota. And for a family looking to purchase a vehicle for themselves or their child, that's what they will look for.

Their attempt to relive their sports car days failed miserably with the CRZ. The car has no 'life' to it and does not capture that raw driving spirit that we as enthusiasts are craving for.

[belaud]

Squishy suspension to boot.

[versep]

Honda still race in Indy, GT Racing, Motobike etc.. just because they are not in F1 doesn't mean they are not racing.

Their current problem is they are chasing a larger audience than ignore car enthusiasts... well if you think about their Odyssey is handles better than their competitor's minivan.

Didn't Honda motors win the Indy 500 this year first and second? Third was Chevy I think.

[Bahhbeehhaaaa]

can't believe its taken people this long to realize that hondas are shit now.

your avatar =)

[satek]

No surprise here...never really liked them in the first place anyways

[Kidnapman]

"Nothing gold can stay"

and btw Satek, what caused you to side with nissan after your 2 previous hondas?

[z-33]

hondas are whack anyways. If your looking into purchasing a honda civic/accord you should be purchasing one due to its styling/fuel efficiency. Too many people buy them to do them out bodykit,exhaust,rims, intake. Its a day to day car. if u want a daily/power buy something like a 335 or a 350/g35 or 7. if thats out of ur budget get a skyline or some other jdm import.

[see.lai]

We love to have our fuel efficent vtec screaming cars.
:joy:

[LiquidTurbo]

IMO, Honda's biggest mistake was killing the DC2/DC5. How else do you get a generation of young guys to be loyal to your brand when you don't have these types of cars?

[teggy604]

its great that honda is still racing, but they are not focusing in that direction anymore.
but who knows maybe few generations later that might change.

[dee242]

Except that these days 4-cylinder turbos are becoming the norm. Unless Honda gets on the turbo train soon, I think that they'll fade away.

honda should stay away from turbos and all this hybrid bs and keep making unbreakable na 4cylinders

[dinamix]

honda is sick of 17 year old riceboys butchering their creations.

they are still the leaders in the moto R&D.

http://blog.motorcycle.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/081811-2012-honda-cbr1000rr-leaked-001.jpg

[TRD Rs200]

still loving my dc2... but newer Honda's are ... :fulloffuck:

[CorneringArtist]

Honda has recently started into the turbodiesel game in Europe. I'd actually kinda like to see that come over to North America, but the chances of that happening are probably zero due to emissions regs.

[too_slow]

IMO, Honda's biggest mistake was killing the DC2/DC5. How else do you get a generation of young guys to be loyal to your brand when you don't have these types of cars?

But but but.. that would cheapen the brand!!!
(Acura Canada then gives us 1.5 decade worth of rebadged Civics) :ahwow:

[Tapioca]

My 92 GS-R creaked over speed bumps and was starting to rust when I sold it, but the fundamentals were there: low hoodline, great visibility, functional controls, quality materials (far superior to what Euros of the day were offering), and of course a buttery smooth transmission. Sure the engine had no torque, but when wound up all the way to the redline, it was always fun. One Honda I would like to own someday would be a Gen 1 Legend Coupe with a 5-speed. The Gen 1 Legend was probably the best car that Honda has ever made.

Honda offers none of these attributes in its current lineup of cars. The mainstream consumer wants safety features, convenience, and comfort. Driving enthusiasts (which represent a small portion of the market) stick with old cars, or buy Euros. Yes, some blame should be put on Honda, but some of it should be on the mainstream car buyer too.

[teggy604]

My 92 GS-R creaked over speed bumps and was starting to rust when I sold it, but the fundamentals were there: low hoodline, great visibility, functional controls, quality materials (far superior to what Euros of the day were offering), and of course a buttery smooth transmission. Sure the engine had no torque, but when wound up all the way to the redline, it was always fun. One Honda I would like to own someday would be a Gen 1 Legend Coupe with a 5-speed. The Gen 1 Legend was probably the best car that Honda has ever made.

Honda offers none of these attributes in its current lineup of cars. The mainstream consumer wants safety features, convenience, and comfort. Driving enthusiasts (which represent a small portion of the market) stick with old cars, or buy Euros. Yes, some blame should be put on Honda, but some of it should be on the mainstream car buyer too.

agreed. the sport compact cars were only a very small portion of profit for honda. They spent a lot of time in the R&D department for those cars, every detail they could think of to make the engine produce more hp per litre, take those corners a little faster, give the driver total feedback. At the end the car was a great driving machine, but they didnt make much for each car in terms of profit.

[tofu1413]

^ they actually lost money per car on the DC2 ITR!

[Bahhbeehhaaaa]

^ they actually lost money per car on the DC2 ITR!

why is that? ITRs are such great cars and so is the CTR

[originalhypa]

If your looking into purchasing a honda civic/accord you should be purchasing one due to its styling/fuel efficiency.

Don't forget resale value. People still see a value in Hondas, which is why you can sell your 5 year old Odyssey for a 40% loss, while your 5 year old Dodge Caravan is down by 80%.

Honda still makes a good vehicle. The difference these days is that the other manufacturers have really stepped up their game.

(Acura Canada then gives us 1.5 decade worth of rebadged Civics) :ahwow:

Que?
By that logic, an STI is just a rebadged Impreza.

The ITR is a prime example of Honda taking the best DC2 chassis off their line, and changing it enough that it's almost impossible to take a GS-R and turn it into an ITR. Trust me, I've tried :(

[Traum]

I agree that Honda has lost their ways in terms of producing cars that feel alive and worth driving. However, as an employee of a Honda dealership the amount of new car buyers that pass through the service department is fairly impressive. Civics and CRV's are being delivered by the hour, and in Honda's point of view that's all the matters; money.

Honda has established themselves in the general public's eyes as one of the most reliable car manufactures next to Toyota. And for a family looking to purchase a vehicle for themselves or their child, that's what they will look for.

Their attempt to relive their sports car days failed miserably with the CRZ. The car has no 'life' to it and does not capture that raw driving spirit that we as enthusiasts are craving for.
Your remarks are entirely correct. However, I just have to question if these people are purchasing their new Hondas based on objective research, or if they are just continuing to drink that "Honda reliability" coolaid or other subjective criteria.

Take the current Civic, for example. The car has been universally panned by all automotive reviews that I have read. IIRC, sales of the car hasn't lived up to Honda's expectations, nor does it compare to the previous gen Civic. Even Honda has openly acknowledged that they messed up, making the car too cheap. When I sat in the car for the very first time, I couldn't help but immediately notice how incredibly cheap the interior was, to the point of being revolting. Every time I see a new Civic out on the street, I keep wondering to myself -- why did this guy not consider something else?

Additionally, from a layman's point of view, it seems to me that in general, the percentage of new / new-ish Hondas on the street just isn't what it used to be. I continue to see tons of older Civics and Accords on the road, but I hardly see the newer ones anymore. As a matter of fact, I'd say I see more recent model Bimmers and Mercedes than Civics and Accords. And no, I don't just hide in Richmond all the time.

[loong]

^I don't think the people purchasing the new Honda's are using objective research when a large majority of the customers purchasing newer Honda's are existing customers that have owned a Honda in their past.

I completely agree with the quality of Honda's being produced these days. I've been in enough of the new models to tell that production quantity was more important than quality.

Honda is currently attempting to enter into the sports compact market again though. They are now offering their 'HPF' model on the new accords and civic si's. Enkei has also worked a new contract with Honda in which enkei wheels will be offered through the business office prior to the delivery of your car. I personally think that Honda has lost that customer base already, and the enthusiast market has moved on to other brands that offer more of what they want at the same price.

[tofu1413]

why is that? ITRs are such great cars and so is the CTR

each one they sold, it apparently costed more to build it than what they sold it for!

early 95' spec cars had their engine head port polished by hand! and those heads were contracted by a small machine shop to do the porting!

[!Aznboi128]

I beg to differ guys...
Temple of VTEC Rumors and News - The bags come off! 2013 Accord plug-in Hybrid revealed in Torrance (http://vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=1069914)
:fuckyea:
http://stblogs.automotive.com/files/2012/06/2013-Honda-Accord-Plug-In-Hybrid-Spy-Shot-02-623x389.jpg 2013 Accord
really? the new 2013 looks like the same accord from 2008.

Sorry but Honda lost all imagination when building cars, they're all simply boring now.
And I've had 4 Honda's in my life and I still have mad love for dc2-r but there's nothing they're making that attracts anyone

[heleu]

Editorial: The Accord Might Not Make The 10 Best List Come December | The Truth About Cars (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/06/editorial-the-accord-might-not-make-the-10-best-list-come-december/)

Here's a rebuttal to the car and driver article.

For those too lazy to read, it basically says that we (enthusiasts) do not represent most of the market. Honda still appeals to the masses even though of its apparent lack of innovation.

Examples include new Accord using V6 (most other competitors switching to turbo 4). With as much attention as the Kia Optima/Hyundai Sonata are getting with their 2.0T, Sonata sales are still insignificant compared to Camry/Altima sales, both which offer the V6.

[Bahhbeehhaaaa]

I've noticed a few of the EGS 92-95's 5 speed if taken care of and gently driven, they can easily achieve 600k+ on original tranny and block. Why is that? Such a cheap car and yet is soo durable? Is it because of the weight of the car?? or the materials that was used to build the EG?

[RRxtar]

to go contrary to the mass of revscene, i don't think killing the DC2R started the downward slide for honda.

someone mentioned that honda is persuing a different demographic now. that is true, but the problem is they aren't doing it right, especially in the Acura line. the TSX is their best selling car and they are axing it from the line up because its taking sales away from the TL. instead of making the TL more appealing to buyers and actually try to compete with the high end 3, low end 5 series, they are making the TL even less desirable (smaller motors and worse handling). regardless of whether or not a middle aged professional is looking for a sports car or not, nearly every man out there wants something they can at least pretend is faster than the other guy.

And as for brand loyalty. Honda is still selling cars because the generation buying cars remembers how good the Hondas were in the 90s. What happens when the next generation doesnt buy entry level Hondas anymore because they arent appealing? If they don't buy their first honda, will they buy their second? Brand loyalty goes both ways

[dinamix]

I've noticed a few of the EGS 92-95's 5 speed if taken care of and gently driven, they can easily achieve 600k+ on original tranny and block. Why is that? Such a cheap car and yet is soo durable? Is it because of the weight of the car?? or the materials that was used to build the EG?


ive seen corollas and ford focus do the same

[godwin]

Honda painted themselves in a corner.

For high price and performance cars, FWD layout even with any AWD, is just not sporty enough for most buyers.

They concentrated on high rev 4 cylinders.. however high rev is incompatible design wise to FI engines... so they have to start all over again.

I blame their Acura division, and the wishy washy drivetrain commonality strategy. infiniti G, Lexus GS, IS all doing just fine. That brings another problem is Honda is now way too small and not partnering with other companies to spread out development cost.


Examples include new Accord using V6 (most other competitors switching to turbo 4). With as much attention as the Kia Optima/Hyundai Sonata are getting with their 2.0T, Sonata sales are still insignificant compared to Camry/Altima sales, both which offer the V6.

[optiblue]

My dad had an 83 Honda Civic, Brother had a CRX, Mom has a 94 Civic, uncles and aunts all drove civics/accords, and I had an Integra RS. The cars I drooled over all day long through high school and uni were the SiR coupe, Type-R, S2K and the NSX. Like most poor students, I vowed to study hard and buyself the latest and greatest Honda once I could afford more than one meal a day. Fast forward to a few years ago as i walked into a dealership, I found myself staring at a CR-Z thinking the world was playing a bad joke on me. Long gone were the days of driving feel for the enthusiasts and in came the Eco friendly tree hugging hippie "sporty" hatches (STI was guilty of the later). Cuting my nostalgic story short, I still love Honda's from the early 90's to early 2000's and I sport the Asimo doll in my Mitsu as a reminder that someday I will be back in one. Honestly, Hyundai is the new Honda.

[RRxtar]

I actually think Hyundai is the new Toyota and Kia is the new Honda.

[Tapioca]

Another thing which is slowly killing Honda is luxury brands and their competitive lease offerings. When you can basically own a 3-series for $400-500 a month with free maintenance, why would you buy a Honda?

In the 80s and 90s, luxury cars were only for the wealthy because you basically had to buy them. Now, almost anyone who considers themselves as middle class can afford a Lexus, Merc, or a BMW. A lowly C240 still carries more status than a fully-loaded Civic EX sedan. Like anything else these days, people don't buy cars and expect them to last 10 years - they want a new model every 4-5.

[Kidnapman]

^^^^Well it really depends whether you care more about face or your financial situation. Anyone retarded enough (Half of Richmond) to buy a luxury car for status is fucking kidding themselves. NOBODY GIVES A FUCK.... Just buy a car which you think will serve you well for years to come, not some hunk of steel with a german badge slapped onto its face and ass. It's quite ironic, those who care so much about what other people think about them prefer to show off the not soo elite cars, but the ACTUAL rich people are much more humble and properly INVEST the money in stocks and property to have some money for the education of their sons/daughter instead of giving a shit about what some nobody thinks of them. /end of rant.

[belaud]

3 series, and C class' are so played out, I don't consider them any classier then a Corolla or Camry now.

Though obviously, they ARE in a different class.

To avoid double posting:

When I was car shopping, I had considered the CR-Z, but not seriously enough to bother listing it as one of my options, it was weak, it had squishy springs, the interior was like a fit/civic mushed together, the aftermarket support of this car was limited to aesthetics.

It was a fantastic looking concept, but with any concept, the production model had angles that were shaven, the car is shrunken, the wheels are smaller, it just looked bad compared to the concept.

[Gridlock]

Any car company is going to go through phases of where they lose touch with the consumer.

It's called 'hubris' and the feeling that we can't lose.

GM was at one point, on top of the world. I'm not going to mention the same examples from the article, as I think they were very good, but I'll add the Cimarron. Let's take the cadillac badge, and slap it on a cavalier, add some shitty leather and sell that shit. We're GM! They'll buy it! If not, R+D cost us 50 bucks.

No consideration for the damaging of their name plate. Their entire system was based on being the best and maintaining the best. They had no idea how to deal with an actual struggle. I worked for a company like that(obvious MUCH smaller scale) but they were the best at what they did in the local market, and then lost money(a LOT) and watching a company have to learn to do change was fascinating.

Toyota.

Their perceived quality was legendary. In fact, it was so legendary that they just started making the boring family cars. They said, we're going to stop negotiating price. Thats hubris. That is effectively saying, "our shit is so good, you pay this, or someone else will" So what happened? A few slams to the quality and suddenly their shit doesn't smell so sweet. With nothing to sporty in the showroom-NOTHING there was no reason to go there and think Toyota. The sports cars(grand scale...4 bangers on up) aren't a profit center. They are a dream center. They build EQ(emotion quotient)for your company.

And suddenly we have the BRZ entering the world.

Why are hyundai and Kia hot right now? Because they want to be. No one now thinks "pony" when someone says "hyundai" They think "genesis" and if you think that name happened by accident, you are mistaken. They're making sports cars that get people thinking hyundai and 'settling' for a sonata when they realize that they have a kid to go racing with to the grocery store.

Ford is the one that always fascinates me. I've never personally owned one, but I was raised in a ford family. My mom drove her 88 mustang to death...I finally told her she had to replace it, I couldn't keep it going anymore. They had a lot of the problems of other company's, but were small enough to avoid the big press. Even with the bridgestone tire thing, it didn't impact them as heavy as it could, or should have. Right now, I think they want it to. Their line up is the most import inspired I've ever seen in a domestic manufacturer for good prices and their quality has improved by leaps and bounds.

I think Honda will get it. They'll look at the sales figures and start to learn.

[Kidnapman]

Yeah Gridlock I totally agree with your post about Fords becoming MUCH more reliable. It's a real shame that not much people buy Fords because of its reputation in the past. I feel that people shouldn't judge a company for what it DID, but what its DOING. Hyundai is definitely much like Ford in that they are both starting to build up their reputation for great drivers cars. I guess I was abit harsh to the germans in my previous post about the hunk of metal and the badge, but what I was really trying to get at was to try and look at a car past its badge. One shouldn't purchase a car because someone else thinks its cool, they should purchase it out of their own driver enjoyment, and that imo is what the japanese do well.

[wasabisashimi]

who cares about honda anymore? I drive a honda, but as a company I rather see them fall and fall. Its the only way they can wake up and climb out of this hole they dug themselves into. I will never buy another honda until they bring some heart and soul into their design. Otherwise, They can keep on selling cars to people who are born from 1960 and older.

Current honda is like the "motorola Razr", who wants that piece of shit when everyone is rocking an iphone or Galaxy S2 or something touch screen

[tofu1413]

^^^^Well it really depends whether you care more about face or your financial situation. Anyone retarded enough (Half of Richmond) to buy a luxury car for status is fucking kidding themselves. NOBODY GIVES A FUCK.... Just buy a car which you think will serve you well for years to come, not some hunk of steel with a german badge slapped onto its face and ass. It's quite ironic, those who care so much about what other people think about them prefer to show off the not soo elite cars, but the ACTUAL rich people are much more humble and properly INVEST the money in stocks and property to have some money for the education of their sons/daughter instead of giving a shit about what some nobody thinks of them. /end of rant.

people nowadays tend to get cars they cant quite afford... u should see leasing companies nowadays...

one year leases on high end premium cars isnt out of the norm nowadays in vancouver! ud be surprised how many customers actually walk into premium dealers... with really bad credit.

[LiquidTurbo]

Another thing which is slowly killing Honda is luxury brands and their competitive lease offerings. When you can basically own a 3-series for $400-500 a month with free maintenance, why would you buy a Honda?

In the 80s and 90s, luxury cars were only for the wealthy because you basically had to buy them. Now, almost anyone who considers themselves as middle class can afford a Lexus, Merc, or a BMW. A lowly C240 still carries more status than a fully-loaded Civic EX sedan. Like anything else these days, people don't buy cars and expect them to last 10 years - they want a new model every 4-5.

How do you lease a 3 Series for 400-500? How much down do you need for a payment like that?

[NLY]

How do you lease a 3 Series for 400-500? How much down do you need for a payment like that?

I had a friend lease a 2011 bmw 323i for under 300 a months with zero down payment. This was back in 2011 when he just sold his integra, he walked into the dealership and test drove the 323i. He told the salesmen exactly how much he wanted to pay monthly and if the salesman had no solution, he would go lease a honda.

I mean it's a 323i but for $300 a month? (we're talking the same price for a camry, accord, altima, etc) That's fricking awesome.

It was the BMW dealership on cambie right by the McDonalds and used euro car dealership.

I still couldn't believe it.


P.S. I apologize for not being as coherent with details about the vehicle. I believe it was a demo with very low KMS (under 5,000)

[LiquidTurbo]

That's amazing. If you're leasing a car for only that cost a month, it sure beats owning these things.

[NLY]

Yeah definitely, combine that with the idea of writing off a percentage of the payment/insurance as a work expense.

I always tell him he's got a horseshoe up his bottom.

[tofu1413]

leasing demo specials... bmw lease rates are competitively insane.

they have definitely taken a chunk out of the lower end car segment with those lease rates.. i mean, who wouldnt?

not to mention they do offer maintenance pkgs too!

[NLY]

It's somewhat confusing when you walk into a Honda dealership and deal with the smug arrogant salespeople that treat you like a paycheque. (I'm basing this off of the Honda dealership at the automall)

I remember going to check out the new Honda Pilot and as soon as I finished the test drive, the sales guy brought up the numbers and would not negotiate at all. He must of been a top sales guy selling cars left and right because that's the mentality he had and it showed in the way he presented himself. No negotiation on the price, lease or finance rates, it was basically "buy it for this price or leave because someone else will."

I don't want this to turn into a dealership rant but when I went to Mercedes/BMW, they were much more compassionate towards selling their cars.

[PJ]

^^^^Well it really depends whether you care more about face or your financial situation. Anyone retarded enough (Half of Richmond) to buy a luxury car for status is fucking kidding themselves. NOBODY GIVES A FUCK.... Just buy a car which you think will serve you well for years to come, not some hunk of steel with a german badge slapped onto its face and ass. It's quite ironic, those who care so much about what other people think about them prefer to show off the not soo elite cars, but the ACTUAL rich people are much more humble and properly INVEST the money in stocks and property to have some money for the education of their sons/daughter instead of giving a shit about what some nobody thinks of them. /end of rant.

Thanked you for good points. But at the same time like people posted above, it's not always that simple. There's lots to consider.

I agree that an entry level luxury car does not turn heads. You see as many C-Classes, 3-Series, and A4's rolling around in Richmond as you do Civics and Corollas.

But at the same time, if you're a car guy (after all, we're on a car enthusiast forum), then cars will always be a vice of yours. Sure if you just want a reliable car that you can drive forever until it dies, then go with financing an A-to-B Civic or something. But for that same price (let's say 500 a month) you can lease an entry level luxury car. Not to mention lower lease rates and lease write-offs (if applicable). No, you're not impressing anyone, but you get to enjoy a nicer ride. And who doesn't like driving nicer cars? After all, lease or finance, you're only paying for the depreciation of the car (unless you keep the car forever on the finance and never sell it.) So if people finance a Civic and end up selling it a few years down the road, for the same monthly payments they were paying, they could've been driving a leased luxury. I don't see anything wrong with that.

I never thought in a million years I'd even think about leasing. But now that I learned more about it, it actually makes more sense in my situation.

There are plenty of "ACTUAL" rich people who drive nice cars. Yeah, they know how to spend their money wisely, but that doesn't mean they don't enjoy themselves.

[NLY]

I never thought in a million years I'd even think about leasing. But now that I learned more about it, it actually makes more sense in my situation.


I was in the same boat, I just leased my latest car and I couldn't be happier.

[C5_Ryder]

I don't get why everyone doesn't lease. You can purchase or refinance the car after the lease. If the redidual is higher then the value of the car, you buy it. If its not you walk away. Your not really renting it. Those payments goes towards paying down the car. Doesn't this sound better then financing a car?

[GLOW]

leasing demo specials... bmw lease rates are competitively insane.

they have definitely taken a chunk out of the lower end car segment with those lease rates.. i mean, who wouldnt?

not to mention they do offer maintenance pkgs too!

Anyone know if Mercedes is equally competitive as BMW? Just curious

[too_slow]

^Nah, only because BMW over-inflates their MSRP and residue values.

They make $ on 1st hand lease, and make money again on CPO lease/finance..

I still remember reading an article about how Berkshire refuses to invest in BMW, because the BMW Ag (car company) is just a toy to BMW Finance (which is quite a bit bigger than the actual car company)...

Anyways, sorry for going slightly off topic..

I hope for Honda's sake that they will resurrect a RSX/Prelude type car that can match the fun to drive/value factor for a FR-S. Then again, a base BB6 in 2000 was over $29k ($33k in todays dollars), I don't think it's possible.. :(

[Tapioca]

I don't get why everyone doesn't lease. You can purchase or refinance the car after the lease. If the redidual is higher then the value of the car, you buy it. If its not you walk away. Your not really renting it. Those payments goes towards paying down the car. Doesn't this sound better then financing a car?

Leasing carries restrictions on mileage and modifications. I would imagine you also have to follow the dealer's maintenance schedule. In some cases, the manufacturer's maintenance schedule underestimates the wear-and-tear that a car goes through.

On another note, I'm somewhat ambivalent about the leasing model from a car longevity perspective. I understand why BMW has moved to a leasing model in order to remain competitive on the global stage. However, the company now produces cars which are no longer built to last.

[Tapioca]

I hope for Honda's sake that they will resurrect a RSX/Prelude type car that can match the fun to drive/value factor for a FR-S. Then again, a base BB6 in 2000 was over $29k ($33k in todays dollars), I don't think it's possible.. :(

If the FR-S/BR-Z twins do well over the next couple of years, the other carmakers such as Honda will have to respond. Honda executives probably think there's no market for such a car, but they could get their eat their words in a few years.

On the other hand, tastes of the market have changed too. I personally don't think you need all the crap that goes into cars these days such as traction control systems, nav systems, parking sensors, active steering systems, etc. In fact, the only mass-produced car which remains true to its roots is the Miata. Unfortunately, most people want it all - creature comforts, and a thousand horsepower with 8-speed dual-clutch transmissions.

[too_slow]

^Pretty sure stability systems are a mandate for all cars starting in MY2012.

From my recollection Honda is extremely pathetic in only allowing you to add BT and TCS on the most expensive models. Hell, with the Oddysey you can only get a 6spd auto on the Touring model when everyone else has a 6spd auto as standard

[originalhypa]

with the Oddysey you can only get a 6spd auto on the Touring model when everyone else has a 6spd auto as standard

Good point too_slow.
That was one of the negatives against buying the Odyssey. Cross shopping it with the Sienna, the Odyssey was down 10hp and lacked that additional gear.

I still went with the Honda in the end, mainly because of a few minor features, but also because it drives like a Honda. I preferred dealing with the Honda service dep't, and they were willing to make a deal on exactly what I wanted. Plus the kids can watch a dvd in comfort while I pretend I'm Ayrton Senna while driving the S2S to Whistler.
:D


I believe it was a demo with very low KMS (under 5,000)

That seems like a crazy good deal.
Depending on how long he signed for. If it's less than 3 years, he did well. But if he signed on for 60 months, the numbers say he could be fucking himself.

[xerograv]

My 2nd to last car was an 04' accord coupe, I loved that thing, it was fantastic, then I sold it, and a year later bought a ford focus, it was pretty awful, and I've gotten back into the Honda/Acura fold, I don't think I'll ever leave again, but when I went to the dealer on a 2013 Civic SI they told me the lowest they could give me was $550 a month, to hell with that, the acura dealer across the street was willing to give me a TSX for $380 a month, nearly took it.

[snowball]

a Honda won the LMP2 class of lemans this morning :)

http://www.imotortimes.com/data/images/full/2012/06/15/1748-hpd-arx03b-honda.jpg

[jaemc]

Went on a little trip with 4 of my friends on my 2008 Honda Fit this weekend. I gotta say I love that thing. There's plenty of room for 5 grown people to sit. Nobody complained about having no leg or head room etc. Plenty of room left in the trunk to spare.

Ride was slow as buck (what can you expect a 1.5L engine hauling 5 people) but the ride comfort was smooth and comfy.

All in all I still have some faith in Honda :)

[- kT]

^ cept it somehow ate my phone charger :'(