[Energy]

VICTORIA – Insurance Corporation of British Columbia CEO Jon Schubert will step down this November the corporation announced Thursday after a government audit revealed runaway costs for senior management at the organization.

The audit determined that the number of people earning over $200,000 has increased by 315 per cent in just the last five years.

It also found the corporation has handed out lavish signing bonuses of up to $40,000, has handed out up to $18,500 in annual perks for senior managers and paid one manager $4,500 per month in temporary accommodation when moving.

“There has been a significant increase in both the number of management staff and also the compensation since 2007,” Finance Minister Kevin Falcon said Thursday, adding this covered the time of an unprecedented global economic meltdown.

“That is something – the combination of more people and higher wages – that is both unacceptable and something that is going to change, and change very quickly.”

Falcon added that despite the troubling findings, ICBC has kept rate increases low, at an average of about 0.8 per cent over the last 10 years.

“I am pleased that ICBC has done a good job in keeping rates for drivers down overall,” he said.

In response, ICBC announced Thursday it will get rid of almost 200 employees over the next two years, the majority of which will be managers.

It said it hopes to return operating costs to 2008 levels, which it said would save about $50 million by the end of 2013.

The corporation added that while Schubert will leave the corporation in November, he will continue to collect his full salary as a paid consultant until June 2013.

In 2011, Schubert made $486,541 in total compensation.

Read more: ICBC CEO Jon Schubert resigning (http://www.vancouversun.com/business/2035/ICBC+Schubert+resigning/7100460/story.html#ixzz23jtw1E2r)

Rates have increased by a small amount but maybe after firing all those managers rates can actually decrease? Or is that just a dream?

[MR_BIGGS]

I get the argument that you need competitive wages to retain the best and brightest, but a 315 per cent increase in the number of people earning over $200,000 in just the last five years seems a bit surprising. I wonder if these positions were closed competitions for internal staff or if they were open...

[320icar]

so thats why everyones premiums went up 11% this year... hmm..

[Tapioca]

Management salaries are definitely a bit excessive, but they alone represent a small drop in the bucket.

I reckon that fraudulent injury claims are more to blame for rising premiums than the inflated salaries of a few managers.

[supafamous]

I can't do the math in my head but what does a 315% increase mean in actual headcount? What's ICBC's total headcount?

Knowing what people get paid in the higher ends of management in the private sector the figures may or may not be high. Granted, this is a public institution so you'd expect slightly lower salaries compared to private sector.

This sounds like it's just for show like when David Hahn at BC Ferries was forced out.

[Yodamaster]

Not a surprise that ICBC is full of crooks, hopefully the cut will bring the goods so to speak.

[GGnoRE]

This is why ICBC shouldn't have monopoly on basic insurance.
In the competitive free market, companies like this wouldn't be able to survive.

[Gridlock]

So this week we single out ICBC...last month it was BC Ferries, and BC Hydro before that.

Let's go out on a limb here, and say the following:

Crown Corporations in BC are heavily bloated in a sense of entitlement and overspending on salaries and everything in between.

Do I have any doubt that you could look through Pavco, liquor or any other crown corp and find the same thing? No.

All this at the same time that there has been a net zero mandate operating for all the people that are actually out there DOING the work.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm no lover of unions, gov't unions especially, but at the same time we are padding the management level with positions and pay, we're sticking it at the bottom end citing "current economic decisions"

FUCK!

The first thing they do is cite "we need decent pay to attract talent". Great. Show me the companies that you are competing with, pay wise, because here's the real deal. I can think of companies that laid people off, froze salaries and even rolled salaries back in 2008 just to be able to weather the recession. It would be nice if someone in gov't was willing to do the same. Fuck, I'd like to see the MLAs take a little 10% slice off the top just to show solidarity with the current program. Hell...make it 5%. Even better, maybe buy your own fucking coffee Christy, and leave it off the province credit card.

How dare this party make me actually want to vote for the NDP?

[dark0821]

It doesnt surprise me one bit, if anything $48x,xxx/yr is less than what I expected.

As for insurance premiums, I would like to see the car ownership population over the last 10 years compared to the premium increases.

That aside, reducing spending is just going to go towards more fraudulent injury claims...
So I am pretty sure we are not going to see a premium reduction

/end rant

[Tapioca]

This is why ICBC shouldn't have monopoly on basic insurance.
In the competitive free market, companies like this wouldn't be able to survive.

Insurance companies are in the business of making money and not paying out claims. Be careful what you wish for (unless of course you're a perfect driver and you never ever get into accidents.)

ICBC sucks if you have more than 2-3 cars and over 10 years of accident-free driving, but you know what? At least you can pick up the phone to file a claim 7 days a week and claim centres are available all over the province.

[Tapioca]

The first thing they do is cite "we need decent pay to attract talent". Great. Show me the companies that you are competing with, pay wise, because here's the real deal. I can think of companies that laid people off, froze salaries and even rolled salaries back in 2008 just to be able to weather the recession. It would be nice if someone in gov't was willing to do the same. Fuck, I'd like to see the MLAs take a little 10% slice off the top just to show solidarity with the current program. Hell...make it 5%. Even better, maybe buy your own fucking coffee Christy, and leave it off the province credit card.

How dare this party make me actually want to vote for the NDP?

Are any of these businesses and organizations that laid off workers, and cut salaries prominent businesses in the province? Do they appear in BC Business' Top 100 companies in the province? These businesses and organizations on such lists are what Crown corporations have to compete with. But, on the other hand, there's the view that Crown corporations are useless and they should all be gutted, privatized, or sold like BC Ferries and BC Rail. Oh wait a minute...

Speaking of MLAs, their compensation is quite reasonable in my opinion. MLAs make a base salary of just over $101K, while the premier tops out at just over $191K. Sure, you have your idiots who get elected only because of their party affiliation, but some of the brighter politicians could easily make 2-3 times in the private sector. You know what Vancouver City Councillors make? Around 60K. 50% of RS makes that money at the age of 25. Why would anyone leave a job with decent security for a job in which you're lucky to survive 1 term and you're subjected to constant abuse from members of the public and media?

[Meowjin]

The issue wasn't with the fact that ICBC employees people, its that they were audited and are laying off 200 managers.

Why the fuck does ICBC have that many managers to lay off?

[BaoTurbo]

^because they probably promoted some to managers themselves LOL

It's about fricken time there's some dirt on found by the government about ICBC. Maybe they'll lose their reputation or something even though theirs is already bad :fuckthatshit:

[Meowjin]

http://www.fin.gov.bc.ca/ocg/ias/pdf_docs/ICBC_Review_2012.pdf

holy fucking shit. This is fucking silly!

The media sugar coated this

Prior to 2011, at least 90% of management received 100% or more
(from the 150% available) of the eligible bonus. For 2011, ICBC
adjusted their bonus structure, but still saw over 85% receive at
least 75% of their eligible bonus.

Bonus32  Review of the Insurance Corporation of British Columbia
Although ICBC introduced a financial trigger for the bonus plan
commencing in 2011, the target is unreasonably low. The trigger
requires ICBC to first achieve a corporate net income of $35 million
before allowing any bonus payments; ICBC has not had a net
income below $140M in any of the last five years

WHAT THE FUCK

[BaoTurbo]

Seriously this is why I don't like the idea about having a private owned automobile insurance company dominate a whole entire market for the province. It's like yes, there are benefits so that there's is at least some order in the insurance market, but this company is just asking for fraud sooner or later.

Unless the government controls and regulates and monitors this company extensively, it's going to be a greed trap in just a matter of time. And of course, someone to reveal them, but I mean even the government can create fraud or make some salary boosts and make it seem legit. I guess opening the insurance market might be a good thing about now or soon. Opinions?

[Energy]

Well a free and open market is usually better for consumers.

[supafamous]

Well a free and open market is usually better for consumers.

The US health care market called and wants you to be a spokesperson. :) Seriously, sometimes it's better to be private, sometimes it's better to be public.

In this case I'm firmly in the "car insurance should be public" camp. Example reason: ICBC spends millions each year in upgrading intersections (left turn bays, better signaling etc) that no private insurance company has an incentive to spend on (witness most American cities - their road safety is rubbish compared to us). ICBC's investment in road safety reduces insurance costs for all of us.

With ICBC you get a lot of public sector inefficiencies but you also get a lot of public sector benefits. (My friend from Ottawa was stunned at how little I pay for car insurance - $900/yr for my TSX)

Re: Salaries - $100k/yr is not a lot of money. Middle managers make that kind of money in the private sector and you could easily argue that a MLA has at least a similar level of responsibility.

[Tapioca]

The insurance market is already half open - you just need to buy basic liability insurance from ICBC.

But, this thread needs someone to chime in about how Alberta under a fully private system has cheaper premiums. And I would like to know if these people receive the same level of service from their smaller, but cheaper insurer that ICBC provides.

[RE-Jo]

First of all, I don't work for ICBC and I don't like ICBC one bit, but the line

"The audit determined that the number of people earning over $200,000 has increased by 315 per cent in just the last five years."

Can be a bit misleading.
For example, "IF" 5 years ago, ICBC only had 1 person making over $200,000, now they have 4 people making over $200,000, that would mean a 300% increase. Plus, if those 3 people were making $199,999 5 years ago, you see how the newspaper can play with these numbers to stirr up some heat in the general public?

My point is, we need to see some actual numbers (i.e. how much money were the top 50 people making 5 years ago, and how much are they making now) before we all take our pitchforks and march to the nearest ICBC office.

[optiblue]

why does anyone at ICBC need to make over 200k... what do these guys do?

[RE-Jo]

^^^ Same can be said for a lot of companies :P

[Energy]

The US health care market called and wants you to be a spokesperson. :) Seriously, sometimes it's better to be private, sometimes it's better to be public.


I did say usually. US healthcare is another can of worms altogether.

[supafamous]

I did say usually. US healthcare is another can of worms altogether.

Yeah, sorry. I should have been clearer that I was just joking.

[godwin]

Legal counsel? (you will get more than a few at ICBC) Privacy Officers? Basically all positions that require a law degree would pay that much. That's common among crown corporations eg Lottery etc etc.

I am not sure about sense of entitlement because lawyers in those fields are few, they can easily earn the same amount at other corporations.

why does anyone at ICBC need to make over 200k... what do these guys do?

[Zordon]

so thats why everyones premiums went up 11% this year... hmm..

I don't believe your premiums increase is a direct result of ICBC manager raises. There are more factors than that, for one, increase in claims. There are more drivers on the road resulting in more claims that require material damage payouts and bodily injury payouts. The second factor is more fraudulent claims that result in investigations, lawsuits, and waste of tax payer dollars.

The way I see it is, if you have a buddy who got in a fender bender, feels fine but has an ICBC claim and is now trying to get more money just cause. They are basically the ones who are putting stress on the system, raising our rates, and commiting fraud by lying about their extent of their injuries.

If ICBC was to increase raises rates for the pure purpose of increasing their salary, heads would roll left and right. I definitely think it's unfair that managers make so much more money compared to the unionized staff who are the front line workers keeping the company afloat. I also find it unfair that their bonuses and raises are not implemented to reduce premiums instead.

As some people have already said, ICBC puts tons of money into the community trying to improve streets, awareness, and overall safety. I agree that some ads may seem like a waste of money compared to other campaigns but they do try to put the money back where it belongs.

Being an ICBC employee and a tax payer, it sucks that our rates go up but what can you do? Everything around us, prices are going up (hydro, carbon tax, property tax, gas) and hopefully in the future our rates can be lowered as a result of a better economy and cost cutting measures.

**Disclaimer**
The contents of this post reflect the views of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official views or policy of ICBC.

[Gridlock]

Are any of these businesses and organizations that laid off workers, and cut salaries prominent businesses in the province? Do they appear in BC Business' Top 100 companies in the province? These businesses and organizations on such lists are what Crown corporations have to compete with. But, on the other hand, there's the view that Crown corporations are useless and they should all be gutted, privatized, or sold like BC Ferries and BC Rail. Oh wait a minute...

Speaking of MLAs, their compensation is quite reasonable in my opinion. MLAs make a base salary of just over $101K, while the premier tops out at just over $191K. Sure, you have your idiots who get elected only because of their party affiliation, but some of the brighter politicians could easily make 2-3 times in the private sector. You know what Vancouver City Councillors make? Around 60K. 50% of RS makes that money at the age of 25. Why would anyone leave a job with decent security for a job in which you're lucky to survive 1 term and you're subjected to constant abuse from members of the public and media?

Oh, I get that. I'm not one of those people that think the fuckers should work for minimum wage.

I'm simply saying at a time where a LOT of people are making sacrifices, then everyone should. Yeah, its a slippery slope to start doing pay cuts for elected officials, but perhaps a little "hey everyone, cut your fucking office expenses, and make it so we can publicly state that our claimed expenses are lower than x number of years ago"

Things of that nature.

[NLY]

Just an FYI, all of you are complaining about BC insurance rates, I came from Ontario, and these rates have me in heaven.

1) When I was 19 I bought a 2004 CBR600RR, thinking a 600 would be great to learn on and insure. I went to a few insurance companies trying to get the best rate (not a monopoly in Ontario but more expensive). What I discovered is in Ontario they charge for the full twelve months up front, no 3 or 6 month plan. The total for basic liability was $4500 for the year. You cannot pay for the year, then in October cancel the policy and collect the refund, as they charge you 75% – 90 % cancellation fee.

2) The next summer, I went to upgrade to a Triumph Daytona 675r, bought the bike thinking I had a year of experience, insurance in, I would get a break. The cheapest company I found was $6000 for basic liability. I did not pay it this time, but instead just kept it in storage.

I moved here now in my mid twenties, and pay on a 6 month plan, which costs me $1000 for a Triumph 675r, with theft/comprehensive.

The grass is always greener, give me ICBC ANY DAY OF THE YEAR over the corrupt “free market” of insurance in Ontario.

- I have a perfect driving record, zero accidents/tickets. The rates I got from in Ontario didn't include Theft/Comprehensive, just BASIC liability.

[Marco911]

As much as I think that ICBC is an intellectually bankrupt organisation, I have to say that management wages should be compared to other benchmarks in the industry rather than a change from previous years.

If the CEO wants to expand the organisation, and there is a proven ROI in doing so, I have no problems with that.

[Marco911]

The more I read this, the more I think this stinks.

Here's an excerpt from a media article:
"The provincial government is now ordering ICBC to cut costs by reducing between 165-195 positions over the next two years.

The review also recommends increasing oversight, reducing legal and procurement costs and improving management of bodily claims injuries."

Improving management of bodily claims injuries, raises all sorts of red flags. If there are fraudulent claims, but it costs more to prove that the claim is fraudulent than for ICBC to settle and avoid the legal and investigative costs, ICBC should still spend the extra money to prove a claim is fraudulent, rather than make a payout.

I'm guessing Shubert resigned not as an admission of wrong doing but as a protest of what he sees as interference by the provincial government in his job.

[falcon]

why does anyone at ICBC need to make over 200k... what do these guys do?



More than you think. My dad has worked at head office for over 30 years and you would be surprised at all the stories I've heard since I was a kid.

It's not easy to run an insurance company, and in regards to the managers question.. remember ICBC runs claim centers, driver services centers, call centers, they have road inspection estimators, have people who deal with out of province claims etc. etc. The list goes on. All of which have at least a small handful of managers in each branch/office.

[falcon]

To the poster above me, after talking with my dad, who talks and deals with Schubert several days a week this is the impression he is getting. Schubert had a lot of great ideas, none of which came to frutition. Too much red tape, too much gravy train, why fix what isn't broken? In ICBC's mind that is.

[Marco911]

why does anyone at ICBC need to make over 200k... what do these guys do?

200K is not a lot of money for someone in senior management, who is entitled to a good standard of living.

In Vancouver, I think you would need at least a combined gross family income of $350K-500K to live comfortably and support 2 kids.

[falcon]

And they are all directors of areas of the company anyways. No "regular" Manager is making over 200k. My father is one of a very small amount of people who have been there over 30 years and makes significantly less than 200k and he is in a Middle/Sr. Management position, but not director.



But, that being said you also think it takes 350k/yr to support a family and 2 kids so I'm not sure I should be agreeing with you on anything. Haha... 350k? fer serious? You can quite easily live with a 4 person family in Vancouver for under 100k a year. I know MANY people who own homes and live very comfortabley. But then again, lots of wannabe ballers on here with big dollaz who spend excessive money on coture crap and expensive cars for "status." So I can understand why they would need 350k/yr to support a wife and two kids.

[Marco911]

But, that being said you also think it takes 350k/yr to support a family and 2 kids so I'm not sure I should be agreeing with you on anything. Haha... 350k? fer serious? You can quite easily live with a 4 person family in Vancouver for under 100k a year. I know MANY people who own homes and live very comfortabley. But then again, lots of wannabe ballers on here with big dollaz who spend excessive money on coture crap and expensive cars for "status." So I can understand why they would need 350k/yr to support a wife and two kids.

I'm being serious. Below is my rough cut calculation of what it would take to support my hypothetical future 4 person family, coming from the top 1% in a major city like Vancouver or Palo Alto, CA. If you moved to London, or New York, it would be much more than this. Granted my SO is becoming an anaesthesiologist and we are in the top 1% of income earners but I am outlining the expenses that would give us a "middle class" lifestyle among our peers. But at $608,000, our family would just barely be breaking even. The below is also why the 1% complain about high taxes.

Combined Gross Annual Income: $608,000
Income Tax $212,800 (avg. tax rate of 35%)
Housing $108,000 (Property value of $2.5M. Mortgage of $7500 + $1500 for utilities, landscaping, maintenance and property tax)
Retirement, savings and investments: $60,800 (10% of gross income)
Vehicles $42,000 ($3500 / mo, finance + gas + insurance)
Food $24,000 ($500 per person per month)
Misc Expenses $72,000 ($1,500 per person per month. Very conservative.)
Annual vacation Budget $12,000
Private Highschool $24,000 ($2,000 per child per month).
US Ivy University amortised $52,000 ($65,000 per child per year * 4 yrs / 10 yr amortization)

[GGnoRE]

^ 2.5M housing doesn't seem like what an average family would live in...

Private highschool also has nothing to do with living comfortably...

But I do agree that if you want to support your children going to schools in the states then you need to save up a shit ton of money.

[Marco911]

^ 2.5M housing doesn't seem like what an average family would live in...

Private highschool also has nothing to do with living comfortably...

But I do agree that if you want to support your children going to schools in the states then you need to save up a shit ton of money.

Bro, 2.5m gets you a shack in Vancouver West. 2.5M gets you a 2000 sq ft 20 year old one storey home in Palo Alto. That is the average closing price in the area. If anything, I'm being conservative on the housing because the other costs are so high. The rule of thumb is 30% of income for housing and this works out to be way less than that.

My SO and I both went to school in the US so we would naturally want our kids to go to the same schools.

[GGnoRE]

^ But I thought we were talking about what you need to make to live "comfortably". If you think living in Vancouver West is a requirement then I guess your correct. I've lived in Surrey, Coquitlam, Port Moody and Burnaby and 2.5M would not have gave me a shack to live in.

I guess we can agree that "comfortable" is a relative term

[falcon]

Unrealistic expectaions are unrealistic. Your view of what "comfortable and middle class" are extremely skewed, Marco911.

[Marco911]

This is exactly why the 99% don't get the 1%. We are struggling just like everyone else to make ends meet. If anything a lot of those expenditures are way understated from what they truly are. I have broken out the numbers for you and all you can say is I'm unrealistic. Where am I being unrealistic? Do you realize that even at $600k our family of four only has a disposable income of $72k per year? That is hardly enough to live "comfortably" if you consider housekeeper expenses, vet bills, buying something nice once in awhile etc, etc.

I think most people will agree with the notion that every generation should improve on its station in life from the former. I'd want to give my kids a better life than I had. My SO and I are both highly educated working professionals. We went to some of the best schools in the world. I grew up upper middle class in North Van district. Suggesting that we move to Surrey, PoCo and Burnaby because major districts like Vancouver West and West Van are out of reach is a non-starter. The other working professionals in those neighbourhoods are our peer group. One of my good friends from high school is a dentist with his own practice and his wife is a lawyer in vancouver. They have one kid on the way. Together they pull in more than $500k a year and they claim to still struggle to get by in Vancouver West. I can see why.

[Volvo-brickster]

In Vancouver, I think you would need at least a combined gross family income of $350K-500K to live comfortably and support 2 kids.


That is the same mentality that describes those who spend the money they don't have to buy useless shit they don't need to impress the people they don't like

[Marco911]

Unrealistic expectaions are unrealistic. Your view of what "comfortable and middle class" are extremely skewed, Marco911.

I did not say middle class for the whole of society. I said middle class for our peers who are other one percenters. Thee ultra rich (0.1 percenters) live a whole different life entirely, if you consider the yacht, the multiple homes etc, etc.

I recognize that my issues are first world problems.

[Marco911]

That is the same mentality that describes those who spend the money they don't have to buy useless shit they don't need to impress the people they don't like

Nice saying but if you look at the lifestyle I'm describing and what a 2.5m home looks like in Vancouver west or palo alto these days, it is not impressing anyone.

[sonick]

middle class for our peers who are other one percenters.

:fulloffuck:

You mean Middle-Upper Class which is wildly different than Middle Class.

[Marco911]

^^what's confusing about that? If you make USD 60-70k per year you are middle class in America or Canada. You'd be considered wealthy in Vietnam, china or the Philippines. Likewise, relatively speaking, making 600k per year would give us a very middle class existence among our peers. Please go through the expenses I listed and highlight exactly what is unrealistic. The thing is taxes are just way too high, which is why the one percenters tend to vote republican.

[RRxtar]

I'm being serious. Below is my rough cut calculation of what it would take to support my hypothetical future 4 person family, coming from the top 1% in a major city like Vancouver or Palo Alto, CA. If you moved to London, or New York, it would be much more than this. Granted my SO is becoming an anaesthesiologist and we are in the top 1% of income earners but I am outlining the expenses that would give us a "middle class" lifestyle among our peers. But at $608,000, our family would just barely be breaking even. The below is also why the 1% complain about high taxes.

Combined Gross Annual Income: $608,000
Income Tax $212,800 (avg. tax rate of 35%)
Housing $108,000 (Property value of $2.5M. Mortgage of $7500 + $1500 for utilities, landscaping, maintenance and property tax)
Retirement, savings and investments: $60,800 (10% of gross income)
Vehicles $42,000 ($3500 / mo, finance + gas + insurance)
Food $24,000 ($500 per person per month)
Misc Expenses $72,000 ($1,500 per person per month. Very conservative.)
Annual vacation Budget $12,000
Private Highschool $24,000 ($2,000 per child per month).
US Ivy University amortised $52,000 ($65,000 per child per year * 4 yrs / 10 yr amortization)
you quickly turned this thread from going down the road where people may learn some truth about how ICBC is actually a good institution, into a trainwreck of Marco's baller status.

[Volvo-brickster]

Granted my SO is becoming an anaesthesiologist

Pix please !

kthxbye

[Marco911]

I also made a mistake in the calculation. That private high school is 48k per year for 2 kids not 24k. So add another 35k of before tax income required. We are now up to $640k income required range just to own one home in a decent neighborhood, put my kids through school and live a fairly austere existence.

[Marco911]

Delete

[Marco911]

you quickly turned this thread from going down the road where people may learn some truth about how ICBC is actually a good institution, into a trainwreck of Marco's baller status.

Thread was dead anyhow. Feel free to split the thread, move to OT, and change the title. No baller status here. The prospect of raising two kids well and living in a high tax, high cost jurisdiction has killed the dream.

[Marco911]

:fulloffuck:

You mean Middle-Upper Class which is wildly different than Middle Class.

If you look at the disposable income available after paying for education, reasonable house and car payments. There's just 70k left, which really is not a lot to cover clothing for four, tennis lessons, socializing, entertainment professional dues, etc etc for 4 persons.

[sonick]

If you look at the disposable income available after paying for education, reasonable house and car payments. There's just 70k left, which really is not a lot to cover clothing for four, tennis lessons, socializing, entertainment professional dues, etc etc for 4 persons.

That is exactly my point. What you are talking about is an middle upper class problem not middle class. Perhaps VanSky members will relate better to your troubles.

[Marco911]

^^You are confusing rich with elites. Vansky members are rich, but they're not elites.

Elites are well off, not necessarily rich. Elites get to where they are based on a meritocracy not nepotism. The common denominator is that elites are intelligent and well educated and earn their income primarily as a result of that. My SO and I got to where we are based on our own merits. We have nothing in common with VanSky members.

[Tapioca]

^^You are confusing rich with elites. Vansky members are rich, but they're not elites.

Elites are well off, not necessarily rich. Elites get to where they are based on a meritocracy not nepotism. The common denominator is that elites are intelligent and well educated and earn their income primarily as a result of that. My SO and I got to where we are based on our own merits. We have nothing in common with VanSky members.

If you were truly elite, you wouldn't be making a yeoman's salary of $300K - you would be managing a Fortune 500 company and have an annual income of several million dollars after commissions, bonuses, and stock options. Besides, with your smarts, you should have been a venture capitalist or an entrepreneur.

I looked at your budget and I can understand some expenses, such as housing, food, and cars, but do you really need to put your kids through private school and American Ivy League post-secondary schools? There's nothing wrong with kids who come out of a school such as Lord Byng and undergrad degrees are worth nothing these days so it doesn't matter where you kids get them so long as they're from a respected North American institution. I work with a guy who went to St. George's and he makes a mere 15K more than me and he's got almost 10 years on me. Now, if you want your kids to become Freemasons, then I suppose you would need to get them into Ivy League schools...

[Marco911]

If you were truly elite, you wouldn't be making a yeoman's salary of $300K - you would be managing a Fortune 500 company and have an annual income of several million dollars after commissions, bonuses, and stock options. Besides, with your smarts, you should have been a venture capitalist or an entrepreneur.

I don't think you are casting your net wide enough. A heart surgeon is certainly an elite and they do not pull in millions of dollars. Many former farmers who are newly minted factory owners in China are entrepreneurs and make millions of dollars a year, but they are not elites.

To be a Fortune 500 CEO, you generally do have to be an elite these days.

I looked at your budget and I can understand some expenses, such as housing, food, and cars, but do you really need to put your kids through private school and American Ivy League post-secondary schools? There's nothing wrong with kids who come out of a school such as Lord Byng and undergrad degrees are worth nothing these days so it doesn't matter where you kids get them so long as they're from a respected North American institution.

I don't really agree with this. Have you heard of legacy admissions? Lots of kids go to the same schools where their parents are alumns.


I work with a guy who went to St. George's and he makes a mere 15K more than me and he's got almost 10 years on me. Now, if you want your kids to become Freemasons, then I suppose you would need to get them into Ivy League schools...

Good schools open additional opportunities. What one does with those opportunities is up to the individual. Going to a good school is neither a necessary nor sufficient factor of success.

[Tapioca]

I don't think you are casting your net wide enough. A heart surgeon is certainly an elite and they do not pull in millions of dollars. Many former farmers who are newly minted factory owners in China are entrepreneurs and make millions of dollars a year, but they are not elites.

To be a Fortune 500 CEO, you generally do have to be an elite these days.

I would argue that your definition of someone who is elite is quite narrow and of course self-serving.

To me, an elite is someone who makes a 1% salary - full stop. It shouldn't matter what 'class' his profession is.


I don't really agree with this. Have you heard of legacy admissions? Lots of kids go to the same schools where their parents are alumns.

Good schools open additional opportunities. What one does with those opportunities is up to the individual. Going to a good school is neither a necessary nor sufficient factor of success.

Where did you go to school? Aren't you a UBC product? If you are, then you're living proof of someone who beat the odds and made it big. Wouldn't you want to teach your kids the value of hard work and making it on their own?

[Gridlock]

And this is awesome at how relevant it is to the subject at hand.

[Marco911]

I would argue that your definition of someone who is elite is quite narrow and of course self-serving.

To me, an elite is someone who makes a 1% salary - full stop. It shouldn't matter what 'class' his profession is.
[quote]

No, I completely disagree. We have to differentiate between those buffoons that happen upon their fortune and contribute little to humanity. I won't be lumped in with a snooki. Elites act, work and think in different ways. They are your bankers, lawyers, scientists and engineers.

[quote]
Where did you go to school? Aren't you a UBC product? If you are, then you're living proof of someone who beat the odds and made it big. Wouldn't you want to teach your kids the value of hard work and making it on their own?

It does take hard work to get accepted to a top 3 US school. Why wouldn't my kids fit the target demographic of those schools?

[bing]

I do like how the thread derailed. For the sake of debate.

"An elite in political and sociological theory, is a small group of people who control a disproportionate amount of wealth or political power." For example, military elite, economic elite, and political elite - these are terms that I have seen used in the Globe & Mail and they are discussed frequently into the aforementioned disciplines.