[JoshuaWong]

http://youtu.be/c3qjDQw_kpQ

Finally, someone who see things objectively. Would you guys still take a manual in a car say R35, MP4-12C well knowingly that it'll change the character of the car possibly for the worse just for the fun/enjoyment of it? I think he has a point, in a less modern car like NSX or even like the FRS kind of car I can't imagine it having a DCT, how about a Veyron with a manual? We live in interesting times, at a crossroad between MT and DCT.

[westopher]

If I had a serious amount of money for any new, fast car, there is no way I would even consider a car without a clutch. That being said, the average 27 y.o male isn't a 100k+ target market for these cars. My drives up to whistler aren't measured by time, its measured by the enjoyment I get, and I wouldn't get that enjoyment without a third pedal.

[Energy]

He admits that the M5 is big, heavy, and luxurious. An automatic might be better suited to that kind of car.

There is a place for both automatics and manuals in this world. Automatics are better for bigger and heavier cars. Its no fun shifting gears when you feel like you're driving a boat.

I think that for sports cars there are two categories now - simple, basic sports cars and technological showcases.

The sports cars in the former category don't use as much technology and the driver plays a big part in how the car drives. Cars like the FRS, Corvette, Viper, Porsches, M3, R8, Gallardo, Vantage, Elise.

Then there are cars that rely on computers and technology to achieve really high performance figures and/or are really big and heavy. The driver doesn't really play a big part on the way the car drives. MP4-12c, R35 GTR, LFA, M5.

I still want to feel like I am a part of what is happening when driving a car so I lean more towards cars that are simple and light that put the driving experience first.

Toyota recognized people like me when they built the FRS and the response to that car was really good. Porsche is also up there as they continue developing manuals. Their cars are known for being good to drive and the effect on their brand by staying true to that core competency makes people aspire to own one.

[PreludeSRV]

to me, a more nimble car would fit better with a manual (miatas, s2k, porsches). but a M5....or CLS etc those big grand-touring sedans should be fitted with twin-Clutch, SMGII etc whatever you want to call it. just makes more sense for me as a daily driver.

[Leopold Stotch]

i'll never have to contemplate this, because i'll never be able to afford cars where this will be an issue hahaha.

unless of course it's an entry level luxury.

[dared3vil0]

The M cars have really become something they are not, IMHO a true M car is light, fast, and minimally luxurious. Something like an E30 M3 is a true M car. A 2012 M5? No, SO far from a "true" M car it's not even funny...

[ilvtofu]

Personally on the track I'd prefer a quick shifting dual clutch automatic, shifting gears isn't that satisfying for me on the track and I like that it lets you focus more on everything else you're doing, like steering, which IMO, is more enjoyable when you have 2 hands glued to the wheel. (flame suit on)

When I took the 6MT 997 turbo to the track, I definitely felt what Carlos in the video described as clumsiness. At those power levels you could feel the transmission shifting around and throwing the lever into places you thought the gears would be, and all the OEM rubbery/sloppy shifter feel on top of that. Personally would have had a much better time with PDK.

In the city I like the ultimate control you get with a manual. You can launch the car and have very predictable characteristics, whereas with an automatic launch control does not feel natural at all. You can be cruising along in fifth at 60kmh and throw it into 2nd or 3rd for a burst of enjoyment. On the track you tend to shift in sequence more so an automatic doesn't hurt in that department. At a city pace I love heel-toeing into a turn for that pure visceral feeling especially if you have a sublime exhaust note and an open top.

Just about every car in our garage is a manual with the exception of the GTI DSG, I can find little to complain about for the DSG in manual mode but of every manual shifter and clutch combination there is noticeable room for improvement. Either clutch is too light or too heavy, shifter is inaccurate and rubbery, throws are noisy, likes to grind into reverse, sticky when cold, and the list goes on... My personal vote is for DCT

EDIT: I wonder how much of the demand for a manual is from the insecurity of "going soft"...

[ts14]

i love it when large and heavy cars come with standard trannies. it gives u the feeling of "hauling ass" especially when its mated with a strong motor.

yes its not going to as fast as a lighter car with the same tranny and motor but u lose the sense of weight and size in smaller and lighter sports cars.

its hard to describe but when i test drove a e39 m5 and cts-v, i was just blown away

[wstce92]

M5 I can see suiting a automatic.
Z3M, Z4M, 1M; come manual only as they should. M3 should come manual only as well.

[vantrip]

If you want to get the most out of the M5 aka autobahn blazer then you get the auto. If you want pure driving enjoyment from rowing your own gears then something like fr-s will do perfect.

[shenmecar]

Buy a massive horsepower car with manual. Get a really expensive bill for a new clutch if you fuck up.

That's pretty win-win for BMW. Sell car and inevitable service.

[EvoFire]

Some cars are just designed with a twin clutch from the get go. It just doesn't work very well with a manual transmission. You don't have to go to uber exotics for this, even the VW GTI, it is designed with the DSG in mind, the manual just doesn't feel right. You can do all the same things you can with the manual, but like the video said, there is some sort of clumsiness to it, where its not smooth. I love my manuals, but if I were to buy a GTI, I would get a DSG

[jpark]

If I had a serious amount of money for any new, fast car, there is no way I would even consider a car without a clutch. That being said, the average 27 y.o male isn't a 100k+ target market for these cars. My drives up to whistler aren't measured by time, its measured by the enjoyment I get, and I wouldn't get that enjoyment without a third pedal.

You're absolutely correct, the average 19 y.o males from Richmond are the target market for these 100k+ cars

[hk20000]

Buy a massive horsepower car with manual. Get a really expensive bill for a new clutch if you fuck up.

That's pretty win-win for BMW. Sell car and inevitable service.

no matter how expensive the clutch is it's cheaper than a blown / requiring a clutch DCT transmission.

Think about that for running cost. :ilied:

[KO7]

Genuinely curious: What are some of the more common ways of screwing up the DSG tranny and requiring hefty bills? I've read of it being somewhat common (or atleast not "rare"), and can't wrap my head around how that would happen.

[lowside67]

Some are better than others... SMG in the E46 M3s was a bit of a crapshoot with the hydraulic pump being a point of failure and costing about $1000 to fix. The DSGs in some of the VW/Audi products have not been great either, though I am not totally sure what the "standard" point of failure is.

With that said, a clutch in a DCT will typically last longer than one in a 6spd car and is usually the same part number and not much different labour to get to, so I reject the premise that the cost of maintaining one is higher than a standard manual transmission!

Mark

[belka]

. Something like an E30 M3 is a true M car.

BMW will never build a car like that again. People now want all the electronic toys, be able to connect their apps, have a lever that scratches their ass and a seat that massages their taint while they drive 20km/h down Robson. The "purist" cars are forever gone due to the advance of technology. Now a S65 engine in a lightweight E30 would be a real hoot.

I'm shopping around for a E9X M3 right now and I really have no preference for a DCT or a 6MT. They are both awesome transmissions and the only difference I can see is the cost to maintain the dual clutch if it breaks.

[tofu1413]

http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g360/splendidauto/1990%20ALPINA%20B10BT%20GREEN/ffbd02.jpg

E34 B10 twin turbo! probably more purist than the newer M5's!

only offered in 5 speed...... and theres even a manual boost controller on the dash :fullofwin:

Bmw M cars are more poser friendly now... :okay: Less specialized of a product compared to before. Since AMG has the black division, shouldnt BMW come out with a more "specialized" line of model??

[toyota86]

big advocate for manual trans here. i could care less about shaving a few tenths of a second here and saving a few liters of fuel there. even with things like smg and dsg the enjoyment shifting my own gears just isn't there. im just glad bmw decided to offer the f10 m5 in stick for the na market. one more car im looking forward to in the used car market.

when the autotragic trans decide to crap out in my 740i, which it will, because its got bmw electrics, its getting an e39 m5 6 speed trans swap.

[belaud]

You guys have to understand you are the minority here, 70% of my friends do not know what to do with a manual car if I gave them the keys to it.

I prefer manual because its engaging and you're in control.

My parents prefer CVT because of its "fuel savings"

My relatives prefer automatic because of its ease

My friends prefer automatic because it lacks a 3rd pedal.

Automatic transmissions are deemed a luxury.

And what cars are deemed a luxury?

BMW, Mercedes, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Audi, Mclaren, Rolls Royce, Maserati, ETC.

Only reason why BMW still offers manual for it's M6/M5/M3 inside its homeland is because majority of the drivers there prefer manual.

They are the pinnacles of techno-logic advances, they are always on top of everything, and they deem the manual a dying demographic, which is absolutely true.

Realistically, the people who buy these cars are point A to B drivers who enjoys the cars, not to play touge through the Rocky Mountains.

They could care less what youngens think, driving Subarus, Hondas, Nissans, Toyota, ETC, we are not their demographic, the older crowd is, and they prefer automatic, because they are the majority.

Once we all hit the 30's and lives are settling down, you may have a completely different mind set, when once you wanted the most number on your dyno, with the most decked out interior, to just wanting something easy to drive, with luxuries appointed to your taste.

TL;DR : Manual drivers are not their demographic.

[tofu1413]

honestly, automatic is more of a north america thing..

customers i have met at work demanded/ required the vehicle to be in standard.... because to them its what they are used to, and "feels right" because it is what they are usually driving in Europe!

and im pretty sure the manual is offered to shut up the M fanatics

[Energy]

Here are the manual take rates for a few cars... It would be interesting if there was an accurate list for more models.

Subaru BRZ - 70%
Scion FRS - 52%
Ford Mustang (GT and V6) - 50%
Volkswagen GTI - 50%
Porsche 911 - 30-40% depending on model and where it is in its life cycle
Honda CRZ - 40%

Source: Shifting Trends: Is the Manual Transmission Doomed? | AutoGuide.com News (http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2012/11/shifting-trends-is-the-manual-transmission-doomed.html)

[ilvtofu]

Here are the manual take rates for a few cars... It would be interesting if there was an accurate list for more models.

Subaru BRZ - 70%
Scion FRS - 52%
Ford Mustang (GT and V6) - 50%
Volkswagen GTI - 50%
Porsche 911 - 30-40% depending on model and where it is in its life cycle
Honda CRZ - 40%

Source: Shifting Trends: Is the Manual Transmission Doomed? | AutoGuide.com News (http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2012/11/shifting-trends-is-the-manual-transmission-doomed.html)

Will be interesting to see how much lower these numbers will be in 5 years etc.

One thing I think we can unanimously agree on is that some of these automatic gearboxes are a lot more satisfying to drive now. On my 2000 miata the automatic would be such a huge drawback in so many ways that even if you didn't care about having fun you would avoid it.
Modern automatics have superior fuel economy, faster shifts, paddles, throttle blips, launch control, etc. and are just a whole lot more desirable.

Some of the posters on this thread are making normative statements that any real driving enthusiast would be more satisfied with a 'pure' manual transmission and simply fail to recognize those (like myself) that also enjoy a well sorted out automatic. Manufacturers aren't pushing automatics because they don't care about driving enthusiasts, driving enthusiasts are just leaning more and more towards these types of transmissions. It is not that they are not the target, the targets' preferences are changing and they are adapting as such.

[Energy]

You assume that the figure is going to go down but I think it will hold steady because those cars are not A to B cars. The GTI has been 50% manual for a while now even if its DSG is arguably pretty good.

And I agree with you that driving a modern automatic is more satisfying. More satisfying than driving an older automatic that is. The satisfaction you get from modern automatics is still different from the satisfaction you get from a manual. What is really satisfying is nailing that perfect shift or heel-toeing before taking several curves. People get satisfaction from overcoming challenges or after doing something relatively complicated. Automatics take away that feeling by making everything so easy. I'm not really wowed by you shifting sequentially from 5th to 2nd in a blink of an eye - what I'm impressed with is your car and not your driving.

Superior fuel economy, faster shifts, paddles, throttle blips, launch control, etc make a car more efficient but not necessarily more fun.

All the electronic systems in modern cars separate drivers from what is actually happening. Even paddle shifting feels very artificial somehow. I've driven cars with dual clutch transmissions and while I'm impressed by how fast and smooth they can shift I still want to feel engaged when driving a car.

And while some manufacturers may have given up on manuals, others are smart enough to realize that there are still people out there that want an analog rather than digital feel when driving.

But like I said earlier, there is a place for both transmissions in this world.

[wstce92]

Here are the manual take rates for a few cars... It would be interesting if there was an accurate list for more models.

Subaru BRZ - 70%
Scion FRS - 52%
Ford Mustang (GT and V6) - 50%
Volkswagen GTI - 50%
Porsche 911 - 30-40% depending on model and where it is in its life cycle
Honda CRZ - 40%

Source: Shifting Trends: Is the Manual Transmission Doomed? | AutoGuide.com News (http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2012/11/shifting-trends-is-the-manual-transmission-doomed.html)

Manual take rate for the FRS is only 52%?!
I've driven that car and I fell in love. But that is a manual car if there ever was one. When I drove the auto after a couple times in the manual, it was like two completely different cars.
:fulloffuck: y u other 48% y?!

[ilvtofu]

You assume that the figure is going to go down but I think it will hold steady because those cars are not A to B cars. The GTI has been 50% manual for a while now even if its DSG is arguably pretty good.

And I agree with you that driving a modern automatic is more satisfying. More satisfying than driving an older automatic that is. The satisfaction you get from modern automatics is still different from the satisfaction you get from a manual. What is really satisfying is nailing that perfect shift or heel-toeing before taking several curves. People get satisfaction from overcoming challenges or after doing something relatively complicated. Automatics take away that feeling by making everything so easy. I'm not really wowed by you shifting sequentially from 5th to 2nd in a blink of an eye - what I'm impressed with is your car and not your driving.

Superior fuel economy, faster shifts, paddles, throttle blips, launch control, etc make a car more efficient but not necessarily more fun.

All the electronic systems in modern cars separate drivers from what is actually happening. Even paddle shifting feels very artificial somehow. I've driven cars with dual clutch transmissions and while I'm impressed by how fast and smooth they can shift I still want to feel engaged when driving a car.

And while some manufacturers may have given up on manuals, others are smart enough to realize that there are still people out there that want an analog rather than digital feel when driving.

But like I said earlier, there is a place for both transmissions in this world.

I don't think anyone is denying the satisfaction of heel toe shifting, I also love the simple confidence you have when driving a manual and knowing what gear you're in, and how far away the gear is you might want to be in.

Overcoming challenges is satisfying and yes an automatic may make you feel more disconnected from the trasmission. But like i said earlier, there is so much more to driving than just a transmission, IMO by focusing less on the clutch pedal and the gear lever you can concentrate more on your steering input and your braking points. I think that lines and braking points are 90% of the challenge/satisfaction on the track and shifting is not all that exciting or interesting.

To each his own though, if you are on the race track and you feel proud about your shifting a manual is right for you. There is definitely a challenge in getting your shifting points right and your shifting action smooth. If a large percentage of your driving satisfaction comes from rowing the gears and heel-toe shifting manual is hands down the right choice for you.

The consumer can assess the tradeoffs, back in the day the tradeoffs made everyone who gave a rats ass pick a manual but now the choice is not so easy. I'm not surprised the 911 is only 30-40% manual, the manual in the 997 and even the 993 are not impressive, Pedal placement sucks and the shifter feels sloppy and dare I say it, cheap. It isn't just c-lai's buying these automatics, you will just see more and more PDK 911's at the track.

One statistic I am really curious to find out is the percentage of people who went from manual to a dual clutch automatic and back to a manual on something like a 911, gti, M3.

Edit: Feels so lonely on RS holding this opinion... :alone:

[death_blossom]

from what I've heard, this 6-spd is more of an after thought for the current F10 M5. since only N.America gets it, the gearing is not optimized for the car. probably just something off the shelf and slapped on.

[artmotion]

For me, after driving a manual since I was in high school and an automatic off and on, my car is starting to wear on me. Maybe I'm going soft but I think it's just great to have both. A manual car to bang through gears on the weekend and an auto (hopefully with a DCT) for a daily driver.

Say what you will about the M brand being diluted. I'm totally with you guys on this one.

The M5 although a performance powerhouse, just seems to me like it's turned into what's just a great touring car that can also blow the doors off of most of the cars on the road and if desired, could really perform on the track. And in my opinion, this isn't such a bad thing. With that much power, purists will definitely go for a manual, but as something that I could see as a comfortable and sporty dd, I would hands down take the DCT.

[UFO]

Well this discussion starts at transmissions, and will lead to hybrid drivetrains. 'Purists' will always want and desire manual transmissions, non-hybrid powerplants, even if technology and advancement make things better. Purists will argue that better =/= enjoyment, and that is entirely relevant.

5 years ago I may have considered myself a purist, but now I value things that work better, work together, efficiency, and something that is well thought out and packaged. Realistically, the opportunities to unleash the purist in me is few and far in between, and compromising the day to day functionality for satisfaction in those rare circumstances is not a worthwhile tradeoff IMO.

[KO7]

I agree with a lot of you that daily driving a manual car in a city that's second worst (after LA) for traffic congestion in North America gets old quick. I would definitely opt for the DCT without hesitation, and would even take a dual-clutch setup in my lowly Si if it were offered.
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[Gumby]

My 2 cents:

Before I had a family, I owned a '97 Integra GSR and it was a blast to drive. I also drove my sister's RSX-S a bit and that was just as fun.

I've also driven my dad's manual E34 (535i) and it drove like a boat. He traded that in for an automatic E39 (540i) and that was much more enjoyable whenever I drove it...

[Mr.C]

Not handbuilt = not pure.

Who cares about the transmission?

[sekin67835]

I think the response you get from engine and handling are more important than how the gears are changed. I do think manuals are more "fun" but i also think i can have just as much "fun" with an automatic gearbox as long as it shifts the gears smoothly and fast.
Posted via RS Mobile

[UFO]

I was watching a Chris Harris clip on the Porsche 918 Spyder, the thing is about 100kg lighter than a CGT without the hybrid bits and pieces. Harris asks the engineer if they would ever plan to build a 918 with regular engine only and keep it super lightweight. The engineer plainly said something along the lines of: "Why would I want to go slower"

[Energy]

I don't think anyone is denying the satisfaction of heel toe shifting, I also love the simple confidence you have when driving a manual and knowing what gear you're in, and how far away the gear is you might want to be in.

Overcoming challenges is satisfying and yes an automatic may make you feel more disconnected from the trasmission. But like i said earlier, there is so much more to driving than just a transmission, IMO by focusing less on the clutch pedal and the gear lever you can concentrate more on your steering input and your braking points. I think that lines and braking points are 90% of the challenge/satisfaction on the track and shifting is not all that exciting or interesting.

To each his own though, if you are on the race track and you feel proud about your shifting a manual is right for you. There is definitely a challenge in getting your shifting points right and your shifting action smooth. If a large percentage of your driving satisfaction comes from rowing the gears and heel-toe shifting manual is hands down the right choice for you.

The consumer can assess the tradeoffs, back in the day the tradeoffs made everyone who gave a rats ass pick a manual but now the choice is not so easy. I'm not surprised the 911 is only 30-40% manual, the manual in the 997 and even the 993 are not impressive, Pedal placement sucks and the shifter feels sloppy and dare I say it, cheap. It isn't just c-lai's buying these automatics, you will just see more and more PDK 911's at the track.

One statistic I am really curious to find out is the percentage of people who went from manual to a dual clutch automatic and back to a manual on something like a 911, gti, M3.

Edit: Feels so lonely on RS holding this opinion... :alone:

Haha don't feel lonely lots of people on here share your view too. Its nice to have a friendly debate about car stuff once in a while on here because we all do love cars whether manual or auto.

You talk about lines and braking points on a track but there are less people that track their cars than people that drive manuals. For competitive driving when all you care about is lap times then yes, go with an automatic.

But when daily driving, the transmission plays a huge part in the feeling of involvement you get when driving a car. Without the clutch and stick shift all you're really doing is steering, braking, accelerating. When driving a manual, it is probably about 40% (just pulled that number out of the air btw) of the driving effort of the driver. That is 40% you don't get with an automatic... your involvement is way down. No, paddles are not as involving. And people with paddle shifts are usually on full auto mode all the time... what's the point then? The paddles are just there behind the steering wheel looking pretty. So instead of a conventional automatic you are just driving an automatic that has more gears that shifts faster and smoother.

I dunno, I just have strong feelings about transmission choice. And its a personal thing too, I don't really care what you drive. It took me a long time to find my e92 335i with a 6 speed and I don't regret the choice one bit. I'd literally feel so numb or fall asleep on my commute if I went with an auto. But then again I'm still young. Who knows, maybe when I'm 30 I'll want a big, comfy, hybrid luxury sedan with a 15 speed automatic.