[ToneCapone]

Tonight we're going to tell you about a place so brutal and horrific it's hard to believe it exists. It is, by all accounts, a modern-day concentration camp, a secret prison hidden in the mountains, 50 miles from North Korea's capital, Pyongyang. It's called Camp 14, and according to human right rights groups, it's part of the largest network of political prisons in the world today. Some 150,000 people are believed to be doing hard labor on the brink of starvation in these hidden gulags. But it's not just those who have been accused of political crimes; it's their entire families -- grandparents, parents, and children. A practice called "three generations of punishment."

Very little was known about Camp 14 until a young man showed up in South Korea with an extraordinary tale to tell. His name is Shin Dong-hyuk and he said he had not only escaped from Camp 14, but he was born there. He's believed to be the only person born and raised in the camps who's ever escaped and lived to tell about it.


Video link (sorry unable to embed) http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50136263n"]North Korean prisoner escaped after 23 brutal years - 60 Minutes - CBS News

Article: North Korean prisoner escaped after 23 brutal years - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57556662/north-korean-prisoner-escaped-after-23-brutal-years/)

Update:
Honestly I don't know the legitimacy of the character but the story really opened my eyes to the rule of "three generations of punishment." Even the fact that these kinds of places still exist. Just imagine being born in a prison and that's all you know.

If you say you would want to escape, well place yourself in these shoes:

Anderson Cooper: Growing up, did you ever think about escaping?
Shin Dong-hyuk: That never crossed my mind.
Anderson Cooper: It never crossed your mind?
Shin Dong-hyuk: No. Never. What I thought was that the society outside the camp would be similar to that inside the camp.
Anderson Cooper: You thought everybody lived in a prison camp like this?
Shin Dong-hyuk: Yes.

Personally, If I imagine living like that... I start thinking of ways to let the guards kill me.

So remember... This Christmas... How fortunate you really are.

[european]

That's crazy!

[CharlesInCharge]

Any links to this CBS video? as its not playing...
also can you find stories of this camp from credible news sources that arent run by Zionist.
Like seriously, North Korea, Iran, "the axis of evil" of nations that dont have any Rothchild banks in them... any news coming out of the west should be taken with a grain of salt and any South Korean speaking bad of the North is a race traitor.

http://www.addictedtowar.com/book/addictwarnew19a_small.jpg
http://www.addictedtowar.com/atw3b.html

[MeowMeow]

^ i just watched the clip

Im quite skepical because the guy in the video doesnt have the typical North Korean accent
nor uses the terminologies/dictions North Koreans use.
Posted via RS Mobile

[vantrip]

It's sad kids are born in these camps and have no knowledge of the outside world.

[kcl38]

"[Freedom is when] people can eat what they want."

As a Food/Nutrition student and having written papers on food security all term that's some pretty powerful stuff.

[StylinRed]

It's sad kids are born in these camps and have no knowledge of the outside world.

if these camps actually exist... you would have to believe his story first and even then at least require some sort of evidence no?

[Graeme S]

Any links to this CBS video? as its not playing...
also can you find stories of this camp from credible news sources that arent run by Zionist.
Like seriously, North Korea, Iran, "the axis of evil" of nations that dont have any Rothchild banks in them... any news coming out of the west should be taken with a grain of salt and any South Korean speaking bad of the North is a race traitor.

http://www.addictedtowar.com/book/addictwarnew19a_small.jpg
Addicted to War: BOOK PREVIEW (http://www.addictedtowar.com/atw3b.html)
While I may not have much information about the middle east and the histories there, I do have a fair bit more information about Korea and the Korean war. While I would be more than willing to share the knowledge I have gained about North and South Korea and the histories (both recent and ancient), it would take a bit more than this simple thread.

Also, I'm not sure why you would call a South Korean badmouthing the North a "Race Traitor", each side has seemed to demonstrate that they are currently more loyal to political ideologies than what you term 'race'.

[DragonChi]

The embedded video didn't work for me, but the video in the article link does.

[CharlesInCharge]

To Graeme S
Lets see here, if the US turned Vancouver and Richmond into rubble, killing 4.5 million people with 3/4 civilians (like women and children terror bombed from above), but was only able to conquer Vancouver with Richmond remaining free.... your saying its okay for occupied Vancouverites to hate on Richmond because of their new Zionist occupied political ideology?

[Graeme S]

To Graeme S
Lets see here, if the US turned Vancouver and Richmond into rubble, killing 4.5 million people with 3/4 civilians (like women and children terror bombed from above), but was only able to conquer Vancouver with Richmond remaining free.... your saying its okay for occupied Vancouverites to hate on Richmond because of their new Zionist occupied political ideology?
No, because the analogies aren't consistent.

What happened in Korea was an expanded proxy war, and in fact North Korea backed mainly by China very nearly took the entire Korean peninsula. Many people who are now either North or South Koreans are there not because of their historical locality, but because that was where they were when their respective troops either left them there or brought them to.

One of my students, now fifteen years old, found out two years ago that his Grandfather had another wife and had started another family in the North before the war. His grandfather was born, if I remember correctly, in or near Tanchon (I'm not sure; he was unclear, and our conversation was about a year ago), and travelled to the South for school. He had a girlfriend and then fiancee who he married before he graduated, and when the war was about to break out he returned home to be with his family.

His family asked him why he had come back, and told him to go to the South. He left, and when the war came, he was trapped in the fighting. By the time the demarcation line had been drawn, he was separated from his family.

My student's father and his grandfather were never allowed to apply to meet their family from the North; any South Korean individual who served as a Commissioned Officer is automatically rejected by the North's government. My student thinks he has at least one Aunt, possibly more, but he's not sure. And he knows that he has family there. He might only be fifteen, but he knows the complexity of the issue--both sides are equally sure their socio-political view is correct, but there's no way to agree on how to reunite because the views are so opposing. And yet they also feel uncomfortable about the possibility of future armed conflict; so many people on both sides have family somewhere out there.


All of the students I've spoken with about the conflict have had extremely difficult mixed feelings. How do you deal with the people who are so completely opposed to your way of life? Even if reunification happened today, the South Korean economy would be severely burdened by the pressure of building essentially an entire nation's worth of infrastructure.


I am curious, however. You specified that "Southerners who speak ill of the north are race traitors", I'm interested to know if the reverse applies in your mind. If so, why specify South -> North? And if not, why not?

[CharlesInCharge]

Very interesting, the way I see it that the "USA" is trying to rule the whole world but I never knew China was also involved in this war. How many million Koreans did the Chinese kill and terror bomb?

I am curious, however. You specified that "Southerners who speak ill of the north are race traitors", I'm interested to know if the reverse applies in your mind. If so, why specify South -> North? And if not, why not?
This thread is about propagandizing the North, but any North Korean has the right to call any south Korean who hold significant positions in keeping the status quo and in the army a traitor... plus ones that politically speak ill of the north.

[kunoman1]

It's interesting to see how someone who's entire exsistance has been in a prison camp would feel the need to escape. I mean the prison doctrine probably influenced the mentality of the growing boy. Apart from what those around him explained things to him in secret, its amazing that someone who would have known nothing else could have made it all the way to south korea.

[Graeme S]

Very interesting, the way I see it that the "USA" is trying to rule the whole world but I never knew China was also involved in this war. How many million Koreans did the Chinese kill and terror bomb?
Oh god. This is where it gets complicated.

So. Not only was this a war between North (Communist) and South (Capitalist) forces, but this was also the fallout of a few other things. After World War II, the Japanese (who had been occupying Korea for almost a half-century) were required to withdraw from Korea. You may or may not be aware of this, but Kim Jong Il, the second of the "Kim Dynasty", was actually born in Russia, and returned to Pyeongyang shortly after his father did. The departure of the Japanese occupying force was actually the power vacuum which was one of the larger causes of the conflict. Russia, then an ally of the US, had requested and was granted "buffer zones" in order to protect itself, and as a result Soviet forces (which, as a result of being opposed to the Japanese, were often supported by the Chinese) moved into and through China and the rest of Asia.

I oversimplify for the sake of brevity, but I hope you'll bear with me.

Those Koreans who had escaped to Russia and China then returned to their home nations in order to assist in the rebuilding and redevelopment of their nation. Since they had been given shelter in a communist country, their natural predisposition was towards the communist ideal--they had been protected and nurtured by it, and it had not yet shown that it was an unreliable source of rulership.

Originally, both US and Soviet forces were to jointly protect and build up Korea into a stand-alone stable nation. Unfortunately, the ideological divide proved to be too strong, and conflict broke out with casualties and victories on both sides. When the demarcation line was finally drawn, neither side could admit defeat, and as a result no treaty was signed. This is why the war is technically still on.

I am not at all trying to say that what happened was just or right. And in fact during the '80s there were some absolutely horrific travesties; the time once was that there were more than 20 media companies throughout the South. Under the dictatorial (yet supposedly democratic) rule of Park Chung-Hee, the media companies were consolidated and put under near-direct control of the Government. Students who attended the largest university at the time had the pleasure of being located at the edge of Seoul, against a mountainside and with the main police station literally on campus. Why? Because Universities are centres of revolution, and if the police are nearby they can oppress and crush any resistance before it has the chance to spread.

I am not at all trying to say that anyone is "right" here. But at the same time, no one side can be "wrong".


I apologize for the length of this post, I know it's longer than the usual RS "lol u suck you're wrong fag" post, but despite the length I still feel it's probably about only a quarter of what I'd like to express as far as the complexity of the conflict.

While we sit here casting stones, people's lives go on--some suffering, some profiting. Sometimes it's the right people doing both, but more often it's not.


This thread is about propagandizing the North, but any North Korean has the right to call any south Korean who hold significant positions in keeping the status quo and in the army a traitor.

Then I would counter that the same could be said of any North Korean who is in a significant position helping maintain the status quo is also a "race-traitor". There are always good people and bad people on each side. The people who are unwilling to compromise are often the last ones who must face the suffering of the majority; and these are more often than not the people who make decisions about the future of peoples and nations.

[Graeme S]

For reference in re: University life back then. Dude's a great narrator, and even if you don't understand Korean, you can probably catch the cadence and places where he is just by listening to how he tells the story.

Conflict (both internal and external) are nothing new to any region of the world.

윤리강사 ì�´í˜„ ì„$ìƒ�ì�˜ "ì–¸ë¡$ì�´ 어떻게 ì¡°ìž‘ë�˜ëŠ”ê°€" - YouTube
Translation:
YiHyun - How media is manipulated
I went to university back in the 80s. The 80s were dark times. When people from my generation look at today’s university students, we’re really jealous on one hand. They’re a lot more carefree than we are. When I was in university, times were dark and depression, and we had a lot of issues to worry about.
When I went to university- you know that metal sculpture in the front of Seoul National University? to the left of that we, the students would walk in single file, and to the right, you know who would enter the campus? The police. In front of Seoul National University is the largest police station in Asia. The station is about 1.5, 2 kms to the school and there would be a line of policemen extending from the station all the way to the front gate of the school in the morning, where they would enter with the students. How many police men would enter? A minimum of 1000 policemen, every day.
The campus was filled with police. Every bench was occupied with a police man. Every spot of grass where students could sit down was in hearing range of a police man. Because of this, you couldn’t smile at school. If you smiled, you either had mental issues, or you has NO thoughts whatsoever to the situation around you.
This is a time when we felt that every phone inside the school was bugged. We knew every room was bugged too. So when we communicated in our rooms, we hardly ever talked. If it was important, we wrote it down. What did we do with the papers that we wrote things down on? We burned them.
Participating in a protest once for us was something that could get you killed. So we had to be really careful when spreading the news about a protest. You NEVER passed on information about a protest by phone. What would happen is you would walk through the grass fields, and an upperclassmen would, from behind, start walking next to you, and as they walk side by side with you, without looking at you, they’d say “month, day, time” and the second you heard that your heart would start racing. You feel like you’ve become a independence fighter. And because of that idealism, you’d end up going to the protest despite how dangerous it was.
Later on, if you guys study Communications, publication, sociology, history, or political science, you’ll be granted access to historical archives of the newspapers of the 1980s and of before, during Park’s dictatorship or Chun’s. Back then, there were the 4 major papers since it was before the creation of the Hangyureh, but the 4 papers were the Chosun, the Donga, the Joongang, and the Hanguk were the 4 major papers.
In that era, all 4 papers would be the same. If you looked at the front page, every newspaper, everyday would be the same. There would be a picture in the upper left or in the upper center. What picture? Park Chunghwee’s picture, or Chun Duhwan’s picture. Doesn’t it sound like I’m talking about North Korea right now?
Even the titles of articles were the same. How do newspapers produce articles with the same titles? Do all reporters think as one?
The secret was revealed, how that was possible.
One of my upperclassmen became a reporter. He was a person who believed that he could instill justice in society through the pen. So he dreamed of writing of what’s right, and so he dreamed of becoming a reporter, and eventually became a reporter.
He became a reporter, but they had him writing fiction novels.
When Chun DuHwan was in power, go read the Chosun Daily. Notice how they praise, almost worship Chun. Those apathetic bastards. I have never heard about these people apologizing. I haven’t heard of them kneeling in front of the Korean masses and apologizing for what they did. That newspaper still remains today.
This is the newspaper that, during the Gwangju massacre, called the people protesting for democracy as “thugs under the control of North Korean agents” and called it the Gwangju riots, I haven’t heard of the people responsible for this ever apologizing.
Anyways, my upperclassmen who became a reporter, he would ask the other reporters with more experience who were older than him if they became a reporter to be doing this shit, is this what a reporter should be doing? And every single one of them told him he was too naive and he was too young.
Back then there was a government ministry called the Ministry of Culture and Public Relations, and inside this ministry was the department of Public Relations and Advertisement. Every day, this department would fax something to every major newspaper’s editing office. The title of this fax was “Government Order on Reporting”.
The things that were on the order were things such as “do not ever write an article on x”, number 2, “when writing an article about a certain topic, do not ever use a certain phrase in the title”, number 3, “when writing an article about a certain topic, make sure to use the specified phrase in the title”, and finally number 4, “limit the length of an article to a specific number of lines of print”.
The measurement in Korea back in the days was dan. Now, all the newspapers are read horizontally, but back in the 80s, you would read the newspaper vertically, from top to bottom, and then left to write. A dan represented a vertical length. It still remains to this day, as a front page of a newspaper, disregarding the margins, is 13 dan from top to bottom. This order would tell the newspapers to only reserve 1 dan for a certain story, or 5 dans for another story.
So if a story is 1 dan, would the story’s importance be emphasized or not? Of course not, the importance of the story would be presented as being very small. If the story covers a whole 5 dans, more than 1/3 of the front page, the story becomes larger, more discussed, seemingly more important. If a story was as large as 8 dans, it’s top news. But hardly any stories went up to 8 dans and even a story that’s 5 dans was big news.
What’s funny is that no matter how trivial something is, if you give it 5 dans of newspaper coverage on the front page, it seems like a dire matter. Inversely, if you take a very important topic and only give it 1 dan of coverage on the front page, the story feels trivial or it isn’t even seen.
This is the basics of media manipulation.
And then enters the TV. How do you manipulate the TV news to emphasize importance? What is the basic of TV news media manipulation?
The order the stories are presented in.
The first story presented is the story the broadcasting center chose as the most important. We too perceive the first story as the most important.
Do you understand?
So back in the days of Park and Chun, it was the government who was deciding this, up to the mid 80s. It helped that there was a government official in every editing office. Members of the Korean CIA would be in the editing office and oversee the newspapers and news shows and reporters.
And that’s why you got the same newspaper everyday.
My upperclassmen who became a reporter took the report orders and copied them and kept them. He kept them and archived them, and eventually he had a press conference.
A reporter opening a press conference.
At this press conference, he didn’t call any Korean reporters. Why? Because if he called Korean reporters, Korean CIA agents came with them. So at this press conference he only called foreign press groups. Reuters, AF press, the AP. These are the groups he called.
Calling in these foreign press groups, he leaked the report orders and explained ”here is a dictatorship which manipulates the media like this”. He leaked the secret to the whole world.
In Korea, we call this the Report Order Incident.
What do you think happened to him? He went to jail. He was fired from his job and then taken to jail. Do you know what they charged him with? Releasing national secrets.
Do you think it was easy for him to become a whistleblower? It probably wasn’t. He would have known that he was going to be taken to jail, right? He knew that he was going to be fired.
But it wasn’t just being fired and being imprisoned. Back then they would torture you. There are people who are disabled today because of the injuries they sustained being beaten and tortured. There are people who died during the torture that they would inflict on prisoners. Do you think he wasn’t afraid of the torture? He probably had the shit beaten out of him. Was he not scared of it?
He probably thought of a lot of things. Does me doing this change the world in the slightest way? Does me doing this alone cause any change in the world? Don’t you think he asked himself these questions?
When this happened, he had just married. Do you think he wasn’t worried for his wife?
Mengzi said, 2300 years ago, to call what is right, right, sometimes you must have the courage to risk your life to do it. To call something wrong, wrong, you have to risk your means of surviving disappearing. And because of that fear, in the face of power, we have a hard time saying what is right is right, and what is wrong is wrong.

[CharlesInCharge]

So you're saying the colonial Zionist who go around the world and commit genocide in mass number for profit and control are also the righteous ones?

[Graeme S]

So you're saying the colonial Zionist who go around the world and commit genocide in mass number for profit and control are also the righteous ones?
Not at all. The people who you group into the "colonial Zionists" are neither righteous nor demonic. They are people who believe that they are right and others are wrong. The thing I want to point out, and the reason I posted the video of the oppression faced during Park Chung-hee's time is that no side is free of its bads, as no side is free of its goods. Whether either is for the greater good in the long run is something that none of us will live to see, as the time it takes to make that judgement is likely in the high-single decades, and quite probably on the order of a Century or more.


As much as we might like to paint the world in black and white, there are greys everywhere. Every good has a seed of bad, and vice versa.

[CharlesInCharge]

No with all your writing here, you are justifying mass genocide in the hundreds of millions committed by these elites.
Maybe you think what they're doing is "saving our planet" from over population or from some other rogue set of rulers doing the same but on a harsher scale... I dont buy it, the world could have balanced it self out without the centuries of misery it has seen and will keep seeing on a world wide scale.

[Graeme S]

No with all your writing here, you are justifying mass genocide in the hundreds of millions committed by these elites.
Maybe you think what they're doing is "saving our planet" from over population or from some other rogue set of rulers doing the same but on a harsher scale... I dont buy it, the world could have balanced it self out without the centuries of misery it has seen and will keep seeing on a world wide scale.
I'm not trying to justify anything. As a personal opinion, I think war comes as a result of extreme selfishness; that one side wants to keep something or say "I'm right!" rather than sharing or compromising. Terrible things happen in war. Terrible things happen in peacetime. Terrible things happen at times we say we're not at war but there are conflicts breaking out. I don't want to try and justify any type of action that I haven't committed to personally.

I do, however, want to remember and keep in mind that the decisions of others that only affect others should not be judged by people like myself who haven't experienced them and won't experience them firsthand.


In most nations, people who belong to conservative parties or blocs of politics will more often than not be staunchly nationalistic--they will want to protect national interests and economies and reduce foreign dependence. Yet in South Korea, the conservatives are generally the more progressive when it comes to foreign policy and trade agreements. Why? Because the biggest defining factor that separates North and South Korea is the completely opposite attitude regarding contact with foreign nations. Obviously, it's not quite as simple as this, but North Korea essentially shuns all contact, whereas South Korea embraces it and actively seeks it.

While in South Korea they use the phonetic equivalent of "Ice cream" as the word for it in their own language, the North Koreans use an expression which translates roughly to "frozen cotton candy". In the old Choseon dynasty, before the annexation/occupation/colonization by Japan, Chinese characters ("Hanja") were considered the language of the educated and ruling class. The phonetic system now commonly used today (Hangeul) was considered good enough for the masses but too lowly for the ruling class. "A smart man in an hour, a normal man in a day, and a foolish man in a week" the saying went, when referring to the length of time it would take to learn it. Yet now, both North and South Korea use it as their primary system of writing. Kimchi, considered one of the most representative foods of Korea, was not always spicy. It wasn't until Dutch traders crashed/discovered/came to Korea that the Koreans were introduced to chili peppers.

So where does "traditional" Korea end, and "modern" Korea begin? And whose Korea is the real korea? (insert "North Korea is best Korea" joke here so we can move on with the discussion) And, if such a determination is to be made, should it be made by people like us? Foreign observers? Not in my mind.

While you and I are at odds on some issues, this is one issue that we do, in part, overlap on. Cultures and nations should be left to themselves to resolve their own issues. It is neither my nor your place to judge what is best for Korea, or anyone else. If you believe that interfering in order to advance your own goals is the optimal choice, then I would remind you that this is the main reason you have a dislike for what you would call the "Americentric Zionist forces", to paraphrase slightly.

[CharlesInCharge]

Because the Americans had ruthlessly and instantly killed over 150,000 Asian civilians (with two bombs just prior to the Korean war) is maybe why the American influenced south Korean soldiers werent as passionate to be winning the war to the north... so the Zionist had to bring in soldiers from many of their occupied nations, like Canada and even black soldiers from Africa, to push back the north.

If this isnt outside foreign determination, I dont know what is.

Now south Korea is not a sovereign country and is under the umbrella with all of the other Zionist occupied nations... yet you support this system and its hidden ruling elites.

South Korea is the the fake Korea and one day will be as poor as other Zionist states like Mexico and its people moral-less and stupid as some of L.A.'s lowest class citizens.

http://typeofwords.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Orwell.jpg

[rocksforsale]

^ i just watched the clip

Im quite skepical because the guy in the video doesnt have the typical North Korean accent
nor uses the terminologies/dictions North Koreans use.
Posted via RS Mobile
He has lived in south Korea for around 7 years now, which would explain his difference from other north Koreans. What I'm sketched out about is his claim to have climbed over the electric fence... and you would think that as north Korea would have assassinated him for revealing so much
Posted via RS Mobile

[dvst8]

Good post.

[Liquid_o2]

Read the book, it's worth your time. It was so engrossing I read it in two days this summer.

http://www.penguin.ca/static/covers/all/5/2/9780670023325H.jpg

[Gridlock]

Very interesting, the way I see it that the "USA" is trying to rule the whole world but I never knew China was also involved in this war. How many million Koreans did the Chinese kill and terror bomb?


This thread is about propagandizing the North, but any North Korean has the right to call any south Korean who hold significant positions in keeping the status quo and in the army a traitor... plus ones that politically speak ill of the north.

Because the Americans had ruthlessly and instantly killed over 150,000 Asian civilians (with two bombs just prior to the Korean war) is maybe why the American influenced south Korean soldiers werent as passionate to be winning the war to the north... so the Zionist had to bring in soldiers from many of their occupied nations, like Canada and even black soldiers from Africa, to push back the north.

If this isnt outside foreign determination, I dont know what is.

Now south Korea is not a sovereign country and is under the umbrella with all of the other Zionist occupied nations... yet you support this system and its hidden ruling elites.

South Korea is the the fake Korea and one day will be as poor as other Zionist states like Mexico and its people moral-less and stupid as some of L.A.'s lowest class citizens.

http://typeofwords.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Orwell.jpg

Charlie....if you didn't know that China was involved in the Korean War, maybe you should keep the "zionist forces" bullshit to a minimum. You are obviously not informed on the subject enough to even talk!

Large powers have always used small powers to do their bidding for them. For every gov't the US propped up to suit their interests, I can show you a Castro, which would have been a skidmark in the pages of history had it not been for his Russian friends.

So why don't you stop for a second, and instead of trying to be a dick, listem to what a guy, while not being an expert on the subject, has been there, has eaten the Kim Chee and has talked to people and try to learn?

[spyker]

Read the book, it's worth your time. It was so engrossing I read it in two days this summer.

http://www.penguin.ca/static/covers/all/5/2/9780670023325H.jpg

I hope they make a movie based on this story.

[inv4zn]

Read the book, it's worth your time. It was so engrossing I read it in two days this summer.

http://www.penguin.ca/static/covers/all/5/2/9780670023325H.jpg

Read this while I was in Korea earlier in the year - it is remarkable.

I won't indulge certain individuals who seem to cater more to the tin-foil hat crowd, but for the rest of you, do try and find a copy to read.

The stories of what happen in these camps are chilling to say the least.

[spyker]

I don't doubt for a second on how horriffic camp 14 and the experience this person and others have/had been treated,but I'm pretty sure the jews during WW2 in the nazi camps were treated much worse than the people in camp 14.

[inv4zn]

^Not really sure how that's relevant at all.

"Hey neighbour, I'm sorry about the fire you had, but I'm pretty sure the fire down the street last year was much worse."

[j604]

:ahwow:

[TheKingdom2000]

^Not really sure how that's relevant at all.

"Hey neighbour, I'm sorry about the fire you had, but I'm pretty sure the fire down the street last year was much worse."

That is a terrible analogy. Obviously, a fire can be much worse in one place than it is in another. In the same way one type of prison camp could be worse than another.

[TheKingdom2000]

repost.

[inv4zn]

That is a terrible analogy. Obviously, a fire can be much worse in one place than it is in another. In the same way one type of prison camp could be worse than another.

It is not a terrible analogy, because to a victim of any kind, a comparison to another incident (which could have been worse, yes), is taunting and disrespectful.

Also considering the sheer level of inhumanity that occurs at these camps, comparing one to another in itself seems infantile. I still don't know why he made that comparison. Is he saying watching your mother and brother shot in front of the whole camp is slightly better than watching your mother, father, brother and sister getting shot in front of the whole camp? :suspicious:

[inv4zn]

Taken from Wikipedia, which summarized some of the events that happened to the escapee in original post.

He was born inside the camp because his entire family - 3 generations - were imprisoned, because 2 of his uncles defected to the south during the war.

Quoted and spoilered:

Many prisoners of the camp were born there under North Korea's "three generations of punishment". This means anyone found guilty of committing a crime, which could be as simple as trying to escape North Korea, would be sent to the camp along with that person's entire family. The subsequent two generations of family members would be born in the camp and must also live and die their entire lives there. As reported by witnesses the prisoners have to do, from 5:30 in the morning until midnight, very hard and dangerous work in mines and other workplaces.[7] Even 11 year old children have to work after school and may see their parents rarely.[8] People are forced to work like slaves and are tortured in case of minor offences. The punishment for violating camp rules is death.[9] Food rations are very small consisting of salted cabbage and corn, so that the prisoners are very skinny and weak. Many of them die of undernourishment, illness, work accidents and the aftereffects of torture. Many prisoners resort to eating rats, snakes, insects and frogs in order to survive.[1] Rat flesh is eaten as a way to prevent pellagra, a common disease in the camp which is a result of absence of protein and niacin in the diet. In order to anything outside of their meal, including these animals, prisoners must first get permission from the guards.[1]

Shin Dong-hyuk gave testimony of human rights abuses inflicted on him or witnessed by him as prisoner in Kaechon camp:[1]

When his mother and brother attempted to escape, Shin was thrown into a small underground cell, where it is impossible to either stand or lie down, and was kept there and tortured for eight months.[10]
Shin described how, at the age of 14, he was completely stripped, his legs cuffed and hands tied, and suspended from the ceiling of his cell. His torturers then lit up a charcoal fire under his back and forced a hook into his skin so that he could not struggle.[11] He still has a number of large scars from the flesh burned and from many other abuses.[12]
Later Shin was forced to watch the execution of his mother Chang Hye-kyong by hanging and his brother Shin Ha-kun by firing squad.[13][14]
When Shin worked in the garment factory and accidentally dropped a sewing machine, the foreman hacked off his middle finger just above the first knuckle as punishment.[15]
Shin witnessed dozens of public executions each year.[1] Another prisoner Kim Yong witnessed around 25 executions in his section of the camp within less than two years.[16]
Shin saw a six year old girl in his school being beaten to death for stealing 5 grains of corn.[1]
When Shin was 12 years old, he was separated from his mother and rarely allowed to see her. Instead of attending school, the children had to do all kinds of physical work including weeding, harvesting, carrying dung.[10]
Between the ages of 13 and 16, Shin was forced to do dangerous construction work and saw many children killed in work. Sometimes, four to five children were killed in a day. On one occasion, he saw eight people killed by an accident.[10]
Shin’s cousin was raped by prison guards and died later and when his cousin’s mother wailed, she disappeared and was never seen again.[17]
Shin saw how twelve fellow prisoners were given toxic water for washing by the guards and got seriously ill within a week and then disappeared.[17]
When Shin escaped through the high-voltage electric fence surrounding the camp, his friend Park Yong-chul got electrocuted.[1]

[Razor Ramon HG]

Just posting this here since we're talking about the Korean War.

I watch a lot of Asian war films, and Taegukgi by far is my favourite Korean War film.

태극기 휘ë‚$리며 (TaeGukGi: Brotherhood Of War, 2003) - YouTube

Another film to watch would be My Way, although that one is WW2. Stars Jang Dong Gun from Taegukgi + Joe Odagiri.

[Trailer] My Way (

[CharlesInCharge]

Charlie....if you didn't know that China was involved in the Korean War, maybe you should keep the "zionist forces" bullshit to a minimum. You are obviously not informed on the subject enough to even talk!

Large powers have always used small powers to do their bidding for them. For every gov't the US propped up to suit their interests, I can show you a Castro, which would have been a skidmark in the pages of history had it not been for his Russian friends.

So why don't you stop for a second, and instead of trying to be a dick, listem to what a guy, while not being an expert on the subject, has been there, has eaten the Kim Chee and has talked to people and try to learn?Im informed enough to know that the Chinese never terror bombed civilians like the Zionist did and that this was just another Zionist expansionist war. You're just another brainwashed westerner that blindly supports genocide to defeat what ever boogieman commies or Muslims that seek to be free.
Why the hell are all these countries from around the globe, globe trotting to defeat Korea when their people havent attacked anyone...
http://www.kwmf.kr/img/kwmf_intro_country.gif
because they're all puppet states with disposable soldier to greater a one world government.

[inv4zn]

^My God, even for comedic relief this guy is too much.

Incredible title though, I must say lol

[sulos]

^My God, even for comedic relief this guy is too much.

Incredible title though, I must say lol

It is sad. Is there a way to filter out his posts? I already know what all of them say... "Evil west, Zionist bad..." Just the same thing over and over
Posted via RS Mobile

[CharlesInCharge]

Great maybe you can inform us as to why 4.5 million Koreans had to die?

[jpark]

^ i just watched the clip

Im quite skepical because the guy in the video doesnt have the typical North Korean accent
nor uses the terminologies/dictions North Koreans use.
Posted via RS Mobile

hes been in the south for over 7 years.. he conditioned himself into the south culture

[murmur]

i want this book:

Only Beautiful, Please | Brookings Institution (http://www.brookings.edu/research/books/2012/onlybeautifulplease)

the author is the former british embassador to north korea.

pretty interesting.

[inv4zn]

A glimpse of North Korea - The Big Picture - Boston.com (http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2011/09/north_korea.html)

Revealing more of North Korea - The Big Picture - Boston.com (http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2012/09/revealing_more_of_north_korea.html)

North Korea marks 100th anniversary of founder's birth - The Big Picture - Boston.com (http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2012/04/north_korea_marks_100th_annive.html)

Peering into North Korea - The Big Picture - Boston.com (http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/04/peering_into_north_korea.html)

Very interesting pictures

[Ronin]

Man, I have no idea what all this Zionist talk is all about but from what I gather he means Americans?

To me, it doesn't really matter which side is right or wrong because there is no clear right and wrong anymore. All I know is that in places that aren't..."Zionist" or whatever like North Korea apparently...life there sucks ass. We're always hearing about how people are starving or in prison and such.

In America, they have Nintendo and football and cats haz-ing cheezeburgers. They have to wear state issued clothing in North Korea. They have Kate Upton in America.

I don't know if all your Zionist talk is true or not (...actually, I'm pretty sure it's bullshit) but even if it was...whatever. Send me back to the Matrix. I just want to have fun while I'm here and clearly the Zionists know how to party.

I don't understand how anyone sides with North Korea. :lol

[GLOW]

everytime i hear arash-in-charge mention zionist i can't help but think of bob marley's song :okay:

oh well time to meme it up! :fullofwin:
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/26940974.jpg

[CharlesInCharge]

In America,
America was built on the back of black slaves and the genocide of the native population... the western world only has a greater standard of living because it has subjugated most of the world in one way or the other, killing on mass and stealing its resources... but why worry about all that, its not like we're ever going to be used as tools, right? :badpokerface:


edit
I see why the Filipinos were fighting against the Koreans... as see in the middle picture.. . it's because America brought them democracy in a way they couldnt deny.
http://www.addictedtowar.com/book/addictwarnew12_small.jpg

[Ronin]

Whatever. Shit happened. Everyone has been a dick to each other at some point. That's just how humanity works.

The white man just got to being dicks first. If they didn't, someone else would've.

[Presto]

It is sad. Is there a way to filter out his posts? I already know what all of them say... "Evil west, Zionist bad..." Just the same thing over and over
Posted via RS Mobile

You can go to his profile and add him to your ignore list, or you can click this link, and it does the same thing:
http://www.revscene.net/forums/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=65563

ahh... peace.

[CRS]

America was built on the back of black slaves and the genocide of the native population... the western world only has a greater standard of living because it has subjugated most of the world in one way or the other, killing on mass and stealing its resources... but why worry about all that, its not like we're ever going to be used as tools, right? :badpokerface:


edit
I see why the Filipinos were fighting against the Koreans... as see in the middle picture.. . it's because America brought them democracy in a way they couldnt deny.
http://www.addictedtowar.com/book/addictwarnew12_small.jpg

Do you hear yourself when you're typing all that out, Arash?

[ProBoostin]

Great maybe you can inform us as to why 4.5 million Koreans had to die?

First, only 3 million Korean soldiers and civilians died, your figures includes UN, China and Soviet deaths which is the total death for the entire war. And what North Korea is doing right now is genocide. Killing the people of a country through intervention of it's government.

How the Korean War happened:

-Soviets declare war on Japan on 9 August 1945 after defeat in the Pacific by the US
-Fight for Japanese puppet state Manchukuo between Japan and Soviets for Communist supremacy in Mongolia--Soviet-Japanese War
-Soviets win
-Chinese Civil War starts back up again
-Nationalists (Nationalist Party and NRA) with some US support vs Communists (PLA) backed by North Korean support
-Communists win China
-Mao and PLA now help Stalin and Kim Il-sung fight for Communist supremacy in Korea
-Soviets stop at 38th parallel as agreed to with the US
-Kim Il-sung meets Stalin in Moscow to secure a policy to unify Korea under Communist control
-Stalin resists being part of invasion of South Korea and tells Kim Il-sung to get Chinese support from Mao
-North Korea invades South after failed election of the whole Korea and saying that South Korean forces crossed the 38th parallel first
-War happens and UN intervention happens 2 days later with mostly US troops backing South Korean forces

Basically a long continuation of proxy wars between Nationalism and Communism. Neither government can decide if Korea is united how it should be run. Although China was in the UN, the PRC/PLA was not recognized as a member because the ROC was still recognized as the sole legitimate representative of China. The UN therefore does not back up PRC and the PRC takes sides with North Korea. Both Korea's and the PRC are now in the UN along with 193 other countries out of a total of 196.

[Phil@rise]

America was built on the back of black slaves and the genocide of the native population... the western world only has a greater standard of living because it has subjugated most of the world in one way or the other, killing on mass and stealing its resources... but why worry about all that, its not like we're ever going to be used as tools, right? :badpokerface:


edit
I see why the Filipinos were fighting against the Koreans... as see in the middle picture.. . it's because America brought them democracy in a way they couldnt deny.
http://www.addictedtowar.com/book/addictwarnew12_small.jpg
EVERY nation was built on the back of slaves and the genocide of the indigenous people.

[bing]

I don't doubt for a second on how horriffic camp 14 and the experience this person and others have/had been treated,but I'm pretty sure the jews during WW2 in the nazi camps were treated much worse than the people in camp 14.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/31360123.jpg

[inv4zn]

^As terrible as that meme is, it's also quite humorous lol.

Also, included in the death toll of Korean casualties are included mercenaries on both sides killing suspected enemy spies. Don't have much facts about the North side, but during the war, the communists held secret rallies in the south, and they'd give out food to whoever attended. Many people went just for the food (during wartime, no food obviously), and because they were seen there, they and their families would get arrested, and usually killed. There are instances where armies wiped out villages for suspecting of helping the north. Obviously this was mostly political, but it added to the death toll.

Korea was divided into north and south right after Japan lost WW2 and was forced to leave their occupation of Korea. The US and Soviet stepped in to help while a government was established, and they couldn't agree on political systems, and the division remained.

It's unfortunate, but it's history, and that's how shit happened.

[Gridlock]

America was built on the back of black slaves and the genocide of the native population... the western world only has a greater standard of living because it has subjugated most of the world in one way or the other, killing on mass and stealing its resources... but why worry about all that, its not like we're ever going to be used as tools, right? :badpokerface:


edit
I see why the Filipinos were fighting against the Koreans... as see in the middle picture.. . it's because America brought them democracy in a way they couldnt deny.
http://www.addictedtowar.com/book/addictwarnew12_small.jpg

Where 'bouts do you live?

[DanHibiki]

Just posting this here since we're talking about the Korean War.

I watch a lot of Asian war films, and Taegukgi by far is my favourite Korean War film.

태극기 휘ë‚$리며 (TaeGukGi: Brotherhood Of War, 2003) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHY6r4z4qiA)

Another film to watch would be My Way, although that one is WW2. Stars Jang Dong Gun from Taegukgi + Joe Odagiri.

[Trailer] My Way ( (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j4Gcu7wlMc)

My Way had potential at the beginning but then fell apart. Having them fight through 3 ww2 campaigns was too much.

Check out Frontlines. I enjoyed this the most after Taegukgi.

The Front Line Trailer 2011 (

[GGnoRE]

Posted via RS Mobile

[CorneringArtist]

:facepalm:

[m!chael]

I didnt want to mention this until I had some reading material to show for, but the Zionist had a global conspiracy where they were fomenting war to further a one world government and even Russia up to Stalin's time of rule, was influenced by the Zionists... so they in a way funding both sides of this war.

In detail

reading clip from the the link...
http://i.imgur.com/5AOTC.jpg
see Gridlock, the communism boogeyman.


9:25 to the end of the clip for a short version.
Secret History of America pt 2 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-m_nRSS5tw&t=9m25s)

How short is the bus that takes you to school?

[Graeme S]

I didnt want to mention this until I had some reading material to show for, but the Zionist had a global conspiracy where they were fomenting war to further a one world government and even Russia up to Stalin's time of rule, was influenced by the Zionists... so they in a way funding both sides of this war.

In detail

reading clip from the the link...
http://i.imgur.com/5AOTC.jpg
see Gridlock, the communism boogeyman.


9:25 to the end of the clip for a short version.
Secret History of America pt 2 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-m_nRSS5tw&t=9m25s)
I'd be interested in reading the article with the interview of John Schiff; any links?

[Graeme S]

Neither of the videos you posted directly corrolate with the topic at hand, especially with the lack of tying evidence from the article your source quoted. While I'm more than happy to discuss the Korean War and issues related to it, I'm going to prune the posts you make that don't directly relate.

This thread is not the thread to discuss your views on conspiracies.

[CharlesInCharge]

I understand, its too controversial as it went into the source of the conflict.

[bing]

^As terrible as that meme is, it's also quite humorous lol.

I hope the meme didn't offend anyone. I just wanted to point out how ludicrous his statement was as these prison camps are still operating in this day and age.

[4444]

I understand, its too controversial as it went into the source of the conflict.

i can't believe people like you - so much ignorance about world events, yet you're spouting off about zionist this, USA that...

if you were at all knowledgeable about world history and events, i would at least slightly try to read through your opinion, whether I agree or not, but as it is, your thoughts are just wild and crazily off mark

but then again, i'm a zionist US pig, right?

[ProBoostin]

You're just another brainwashed westerner that blindly supports genocide to defeat what ever boogieman commies or Muslims that seek to be free.

The fact is that there are only 4 countries that are actually Communist: China, Laos, Cuba, and Vietnam.

North Korea has removed and disavowed all Marxist-Leninist and communist references in their constitution and government. Basically North Korea uses the Juche idea ideology now. The people of North Korea are the masters of the countries development.

And please stop using the word genocide, you got the whole context of the word wrong. The last genocide was in Cambodia in 2003. Rwanda in 1994, Yugoslavia in 1993 and the Holocaust from 1933-1945 were the only recognized genocides to date.

[CharlesInCharge]

Why not use it when it fits the truth.

Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group"

i can't believe people like you - so much ignorance about world events, yet you're spouting off about zionist this, USA that...

if you were at all knowledgeable about world history and events, i would at least slightly try to read through your opinion, whether I agree or not, but as it is, your thoughts are just wild and crazily off mark

but then again, i'm a zionist US pig, right?
People like me? I didnt know these fails Ive been racking up were a show of endearment.

Its pretty crazy how little Korea being commies would effect our way life... is this what you're going to tell your children in the future? Also the Taliban, with their mystical ways of crippling building 7 into its own foot print under 10 seconds, is this real world history? well if it is, lace up your boots soldier! or I guess let some other family send their kids across globe to keep our freedoms.

[ToneCapone]

I am going to stay out of this whole debate because truth is... I haven't fully made up my mind on conspiracy. I know that people group together, love to work in secret, and could have hidden agendas. But at the same time, and probably the real reason why no educated person will believe it, is because there is no evidence for it.

CharlesInCharge, I am trying to put your theory into perspective. Is this it? (second pic)

http://infobeautiful2.s3.amazonaws.com/who_runs_the_world_1.png

http://infobeautiful2.s3.amazonaws.com/who_runs_the_world_2.png

[CharlesInCharge]

A mod may remove these posts as it doesnt include Korea, but there is lots of disinformation out there laced with half truths like the picture.
Id say this is more accurate. http://www.revscene.net/forums/675124-first-nations-chief-meet-iranian-leaders-7.html#post8068757

[Ronin]

Why not use it when it fits the truth.

Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group"


People like me? I didnt know these fails Ive been racking up were a show of endearment.

Its pretty crazy how little Korea being commies would effect our way life... is this what you're going to tell your children in the future? Also the Taliban, with their mystical ways of crippling building 7 into its own foot print under 10 seconds, is this real world history? well if it is, lace up your boots soldier! or I guess let some other family send their kids across globe to keep our freedoms.

Even if you weren't crazy and this shit was true, it still wouldn't matter. Bring on more of that sweet, sweet Zionism.

I'd rather live in the US where they try to kill you with McDonalds than a country that would kill me and my entire family because I sneezed and it sounded like "CAPITALISM RULES!"

The winner decides history. I'll stick with the guys that are clearly winning because if what you say is true (and it isn't...), people up against these "Zionists" are getting their ass whooped.

LOL I still can't believe this guy sides with North Korea. :fullofwin:

AND THE TALIBAN! Amazing. Man, they don't even want girls to go to school and SHOT A 14-YEAR OLD GIRL in the face because she wanted to learn. My 12-year old cousin has a phone in her pocket that can access any knowledge on the planet. Man, go Zionism.

[CharlesInCharge]

I guess, enjoy life and dont read into this stuff because it will eat away at your soul. America, fuck yeah!
...
but I wouldnt believe everything that the media reports here, specially about a country in which they have soldiers in.... although Afghanistan is one of the poorest countries in the world due to decades and decades of war and crazy shit does happen, know that some of the nutter drug lords there are supported by the west.

Lastly, new classes of poor people are growing in numbers, even in Europe and America... so if it hits us one day, good luck to you :)

[Gridlock]

Now I realize that some of the world's best propaganda has involved painting a negative portrait of communism, but there is one thing that has bothered me in this thread, and that is Charlie here saying that the zionists have portrayed communists to be the "boogie man".

I'm sure that the US/Zionists have a large axe to grind just on a power scale, but without looking anything up, I'm just going to say that the communists created something called the "Iron Curtain" where the countries they controlled after the war ended up remaining conquered and had puppet regimes put in place that were brutal. Oh, and they killed their own. By the millions.

I don't think it was a mis-understanding that they just wanted to be left alone to live in communal bliss where everyone shared their resources and created a copacetic utopia and the US just wouldn't stop hounding them.

I don't know man. That's just me.

Like, Stalin. Just think about life with Uncle Jo in charge.

Dude, like Ceausescu. Think about that guy. Think about romanians you've met...they are an angry people my friend. Think its because they didn't have access to Coca Cola?

[Verdasco]

fucking lol @ these comments from cbsnews.com

Ever look at a night time satellite image of the earth? The whole world is lit up with the exception of one place...North Korea. This is the worst place to live in on earth. Every citizen is a prisoner, and the prisons they have there are even worse. This story has shaken me.

[Gridlock]

fucking lol @ these comments from cbsnews.com

I wouldn't exactly 'lol', as, for a comment on a US news site, that is actually pretty well said and true.

The whole country is a prison. You CANNOT leave.

[m!chael]

Now I realize that some of the world's best propaganda has involved painting a negative portrait of communism, but there is one thing that has bothered me in this thread, and that is Charlie here saying that the zionists have portrayed communists to be the "boogie man".

I'm sure that the US/Zionists have a large axe to grind just on a power scale, but without looking anything up, I'm just going to say that the communists created something called the "Iron Curtain" where the countries they controlled after the war ended up remaining conquered and had puppet regimes put in place that were brutal. Oh, and they killed their own. By the millions.

I don't think it was a mis-understanding that they just wanted to be left alone to live in communal bliss where everyone shared their resources and created a copacetic utopia and the US just wouldn't stop hounding them.

I don't know man. That's just me.

Like, Stalin. Just think about life with Uncle Jo in charge.

Dude, like Ceausescu. Think about that guy. Think about romanians you've met...they are an angry people my friend. Think its because they didn't have access to Coca Cola?

The sad thing about CIC's claim that Zionists made communism the boogeyman is that the early Zionists that made aliya to Israel adopted the communist ideology and Israel was extremely socialist even up until the 80's.

[CharlesInCharge]

I found the full name of the documentary clip I posted earlier, its on YouTube and the show was released on national television before....
Phenomenon - The Lost Archives - Monopoly Men -
@ 19:30m it states that Trotsky and Lenin were funded by top American bankers in the billions... of course Stalin came after these guys so its not too unbelievable that he too was in the same circle and at that time the Korean war happened also.


One of the most disturbing clips I ran into was about the Russian famine where some people ate children to survive.
zionist jews stalin bolshevik starved Christians Orthodox - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AujuXTsaXTI)



Also I found the CNN interview questions and answers pretty outlandish... its the working of a think tank media operation Im betting.

[sulos]

You can go to his profile and add him to your ignore list, or you can click this link, and it does the same thing:
http://www.revscene.net/forums/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=65563

ahh... peace.

Thanks!
Posted via RS Mobile

[ProBoostin]

If you can tell me exactly what major banks funded Lenin, you might get somewhere with your argument. But until you can elaborate, nothing you say makes sense. And if you say that the Rothschild family/ Zionists and their big banks are funding him from the US, you can't be anymore wrong.

From Wikipedia:

In 2012, RIT Capital Partners announced that it is to buy a 37 per cent stake in a Rockefeller family wealth advisory and asset management group. The deal, focusing on asset-management, marks the first time that these two well-known families have collaborated.[55] Commenting on the deal, David Rockefeller, a current patriarch of Rockefeller family, said: "The connection between our two families remains very strong."

cited from:
Transatlantic alliance between Rothschilds and Rockefellers for wealth management. Tom Bawden, Thursday 31 May 2012, The Independent

Their banks are also listed on the London Stock Exchange if you want some Zionist stocks.
RIT CAPITAL PARTNERS PLC ORD #1 Share Price - Shares - London Stock Exchange (http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/prices-and-markets/stocks/summary/company-summary.html?fourWayKey=GB0007366395GBGBXSTMM)
ST. JAMES'S PLACE PLC ORD 15P Share Price - Shares - London Stock Exchange (http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/prices-and-markets/stocks/summary/company-summary.html?fourWayKey=GB0007669376GBGBXSTMM)

[CharlesInCharge]

Why would someone make such claims for national television if it wasnt true?
Cant you get your ass sued, specially by people who arent rich but wealthy and can hire the best legal team in the world.

p.s. the host of that video is from the old school tv show, Quantum Leap.

edit - if you also watch the doc The Money Masters, it shows that Rothchilds are the most powerful ones and have other banking families under them.

[Ronin]

Because everything on TV is always true, right?
Posted via RS Mobile

[Phil@rise]

No the TV lies the internet is the word of god himself!

[inv4zn]

^I think you missed his sarcasm lol

[Gridlock]

Dude man...CUC...I think you need to step outside and get a little bit of fresh air. Think about something else for a few minutes. You see conspiracy in everything. You can't even be a global banker with a long family line based on power and control without seeing them using that power for their own benefit!

[Ronin]

^I think you missed his sarcasm lol

Damn, forgot to use the sarcasm font.