[El Bastardo]

A while back I asked another member on Revscene just what the Idle No More movement was. From the best I could surmise it was something involving aboriginals in Canada protesting against Stephen Harper.

I'm not aware of any legislation that Harper had created to cause such ire but the movement continues and it appears that some lady is on a hunger strike because she wants to meet Stephen Harper.

Today I see that there are bridges and borders being blocked and that a ferry in Victoria is also being blocked as a result of this movement.

I can see a lot of people kicking a lot of dirt up about "rights being violated" but even after reading a bunch of articles on the issue I still don't fully understand it. Is this an #Occupy movement? Is the Native community going to demand Harper be removed from office despite his official apology for residential schools and a promise to update the Indian act? How will CharlesInCharge insist that this is somehow a Jewish conspiracy?

Can someone answer any or all of these questions? I think this warrants discussion.

[belka]

Theresa Spence is on a hunger strike, in protest to omnibus bill C45, which really doesn't do much on the Indian Act except cut out red tape should a Band want to lease to outside interests....something that has mired any development for years. DeBeers has entered into contracts with Attiwapiskat to the tune of around $40M, but it took years to broker.

She's on a hunger strike, yet is documented as drinking medicinal teas, fish and moose broth. ( No docs could be found that she's drinking boost)....so in fact, she's on a diet?....there are a lot of people who do what she's doing at this time of the year...it's called cleansing.....but ok. At the rate she's going, the so-called "hunger strike" could last for years.........and yet some people are calling her a modern day Ghandi?

Ms. Spence conveniently went on her protest at a time when she was in the centre of a growing controversy over where her band has spent millions in transfer payments since 2006. Which as of Dec 2012 amounted to $131,000,000.00 for a community of 1549. Her own people were afraid to speak out to the press, fearing repercussions. After viewing her bands financials as they have been reported for the last 6 years, I can safely say that if this were a Municipality, someone would be charged under the Municipal Act.

Hunger Strike = Misdirection. The fact that so many other bleeding hearts buy it hook line and sinker is a sad commentary on the state of peoples awareness. There's definitely a lot of mismanagement going on in Attiwapiskat. Just before they declared the housing crisis they shipped in a brand new Zamboni for their brand new arena. Let's not even get into the fact that she appointed her common law husband as Band Manager.........nepotism at it's finest......but just a wee bit of conflict of interest. I wonder what he drives?

So many of her band mates are living 3 families to a construction trailer, or in shacks that are tarped....and she's driving an Escalade.....

Fact checking a hunger strike - Ezra Levant (http://ezralevant.com/2013/01/fact-checking-a-hunger-strike.html)

Too many first nations people live in a dream palace - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/too-many-first-nations-people-live-in-a-dream-palace/article6929035/)

[SoulCrusher]

In before CharlesInCharge.
Posted via RS Mobile

[MindBomber]

El Bastardo,

If you've not read this article, you may find it heightens your understanding somewhat; an excerpt:

The letters decry a total lack of progress on problems Mr. Harper promised in January to address: education, comprehensive claims, treaty implementation, economic development and fiscal arrangements.

“There has been a loss of momentum and sense of frustration [that] is being felt by the First Nation leadership,” Mr. Atleo writes in the three-page letter to the Prime Minister.

“This is exacerbated by the federal government’s broader legislative agenda, which has the potential for harmful impacts on First Nations, including changes to environmental regulation, fisheries and criminal justice.”

First nations chief Shawn Atleo vents frustrations at Stephen Harper - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/first-nations-chief-shawn-atleo-vents-frustrations-at-stephen-harper/article5285053/)

[TypeRNammer]

When I crossed earlier in the afternoon to Blaine, I saw the protest but they weren't being disruptive.

American border patrol and local Blaine police kept a close eye on them though.

[GabAlmighty]

Bahahahahahaha at everything.

[El Bastardo]

I also read this:

9 questions about Idle No More - Canada - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2013/01/04/f-idlenomore-faq.html)

Which contradicts some other things I've read on Twitter and in blog postings.


I may not like that hippie Harper either but until they're sure about what they want, I can't say I support the Idle No More movement.

[MindBomber]

Well written article, worthwhile reading.

Prime Minister Harper is apparently scratching his head about where $90 million in federal funding to Attawapiskat has gone. There is much talk about lack of accountability, and no one knowing what happened to the money.

Let’s start with some simple math.

First, $90 million is a deceptive number. It refers to federal funding received since Harper’s government came into power in 2006. In the 2010-2011 fiscal year, Attawapiskat received $17.6 million in federal funds (PDF). The document linked to shows the breakdown of federal funds in case you wanted to know how much is allocated to things like medical transportation, education, maternal health care and so on.

Thus, $90 million refers to the total; the average is about $18 million per year in federal funding since 2006.

[As an aside, you will often see the figure of $34 or $35 million in funding given to Attawapiskat on a yearly basis. This refers to total revenues. As noted, federal funding was $17.6 million, and provincial funding was $4.4 million. The community brings in about $12 million of its own revenue, as shown here. So no, the 'government' is not giving Attawapiskat $34 million a year.]

Okay fine, but where did it go?

Attawapiskat publishes its financial statements going back to 2005. If you want to know where the money was spent, you can look in the audited financial reports. This document (PDF) for example provides a breakdown of all program funding.

Just getting to this stage alone proves the falsehood of the claim that there is no accountability and no one knows where the money goes.

But $90 million could have built the community 360 brand new houses!

Assuming, as Grand Chief Stan Louttit of the Mushkegowyk Council has stated, that a new house costs $250,000 to build in Attawapiskat (with half of that being transportation costs), then yes, 360 new units could have been provided by $90 million.

However, this money was not just earmarked for the construction of new homes.

An important fact that many commentators forget (or are unaware of) is that section 91(24) of the Constitution Act of 1867 gives the Federal Crown exclusive powers over “Indians, and Lands reserved for the Indians.”

You see, for non-natives, the provinces are in charge of funding things like education, health-care, social services and so on. For example, the Province of Ontario allocated $10,730 in education funding per non-native pupil in the 2010-2011 fiscal year. For most First Nations, particularly those on reserve, the federal government through INAC is responsible for providing funds for native education.

How is this relevant?

It helps explain why the entire $90 million was not allocated to the construction of new houses. That $90 million includes funding for things like:

education per pupil
education infrastructure (maintenan$ce, repair, teacher salaries, etc)
health-care per patient
health-care, infrastruc$ture (clinics, staff, access to services outside the community in the absence of facilities on reserve)
social services (facilitie$s, staff, etc)
infrastruc$ture (maintenan$ce and constructi$on)
a myriad of other services
These costs are often not taken into account when attempting to compare a First Nation reserve to a non-native municipality. In fact, many people forget that their own health-care and education are heavily subsidized by tax dollars as well.

What’s the point here?

How much money was actually allocated to housing in 2010-2011? Page 2 of Schedule A (PDF) shows us that out of the $17.6 million in federal funds, only $2 million was provided for housing. Yes, even $2 million would be enough to 8 brand new homes, if those funds were not also used to maintain and repair existing homes. The specific breakdown of how that money was spent is found in Schedule I.

Now, I admit I am confused about something:

According to figures providing by Aboriginal Affairs, the Attawapiskat Cree band has received just over $3 million in funds specifically for housing and a further $2.8 million in infrastructure money since 2006.
That is actually less than I estimated it would be, going by the 2010-2011 figures. I estimated $10 million for housing, but INAC (now Aboriginal Affairs) is saying it was $5.8 million.

Anyway, that isn’t too important. The point is, if INAC is correct, only $5.8 million has gone towards housing for Attawapiskat. At most that could have built the community 23 new houses, if Attawapiskat had merely let the older houses go without any repairs or maintenance for 5 years. Letting existing homes go to pieces in a remote and harsh environment is not a great strategy, however.

The point here is, $90 million sounds like a huge amount, but the real figures allocated to housing are much, much smaller.

Fine, they got $5.8 million for housing, surely that is enough?

Again, assuming 23 new homes were built, and all older homes were left without maintenance and repairs, and the people in charge of housing worked for free and there were no other costs associated with administering the housing program, Attawapiskat would still be experiencing a housing crisis.

It is estimated that $84 million is needed for housing alone to meet Attawapiskat’s housing needs (you’ll find those figures in a small table on the right, titled “Attawapiskat by the numbers”).

The Feds are just handing that money over and the Band does whatever it wants with it!

Many people seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that First Nations have self-governance and run themselves freely. This is far from the truth, but given that most Canadians are familiar with the municipal model, the confusion is actually understandable. It isn’t as though Canada does a very good job of teaching people about the Indian Act.

Section 61(1)(a-k) of the Indian Act declares that: “With the consent of the council of a band, the Minister may authorize and direct the expenditure of capital moneys of the band” for various purposes.

What this means is that Ministerial approval is actually a requirement before any capital expenditures can occur on reserve. In practice, a Band will generally pass a Band Council Resolution (BCR) authorising a certain expenditure (say on housing), and that BCR must be forwarded to INAC for approval.

That’s right. Most First Nations have to get permission before they can spend money. That is the opposite of ‘doing whatever they want’ with the money. Bands are micromanaged to an extent unseen in nearly any other context that does not involve a minor or someone who lacks capacity due to mental disability.

Any claims that INAC has no control over what Bands spend their money on is false.

I would hope by now you’d ask the following question:

If INAC has to approve spending, why is Harper so confused?

There is a tendency to believe that our government officials do things in a way that makes sense. This, despite the fact that most of us don’t actually believe this to be true. We want to believe. I know I do.

So upon learning that the federal government is the one in charge of providing services to First Nations that are provided to non-natives by the province, we might assume that the provision of these services are administered in a comparable manner.

Not so. And it actually makes sense why not, when you think about it for a moment. Have you ever seen a federal hospital, for example? No, because hospitals are built, maintained, and staffed by the provinces. Thus, when a First Nations person needs to access health-care, they cannot access federal infrastructure. They must access provincial infrastructure and have the feds rather than the province pick up the tab.

If only it were as easy as federal funding via provincial structures.

The Auditor General of Canada speaks up.

The Auditor General of Canada released a report in June of this year examining Programs for First Nations on Reserve. A similar report was published in 2006. This report identifies deficiencies in program planning and delivery by Indian and Northern Affairs Canada (INAC), Health Canada, the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation (CMHC), and the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat.

The reports also provide a number of recommendations to improve these deficiencies. The 2011 report evaluated the progress made since the 2006 report, and in most areas, gave these federal agencies a failing grade.

Don’t worry, there is a point to this, stay with me.

The 2011 report has this to say:

In our view, many of the problems facing First Nations go deeper than the existing programs’ lack of efficiency and effectiveness. We believe that structural impediments severely limit the delivery of public services to First Nations communities and hinder improvements in living conditions on reserves. We have identified four such impediments:

lack of clarity about service levels,
lack of a legislative base,
lack of an appropriate funding mechanism, and
lack of organizations to support local service delivery.
I know this is going to look like mumbo jumbo at first, so let me break it down a little for you. This will help explain why millions of dollars of funding is not enough to actually improve the living conditions of First Nations people, particularly those on reserve.

Lack of clarity about service levels

As explained earlier the federal government is in charge of delivering services that are otherwise provided by the provinces to non-natives. The Auditor General states:

“It is not always evident whether the federal government is committed to providing services on reserves of the same range and quality as those provided to other communities across Canada.”
Shockingly, the federal government does not always have clear program objectives, nor does it necessarily identify specific roles and responsibilities for program delivery, and has not established measures for evaluating performance in order to determine if outcome are actually met.

That’s right. The federal government is not keeping track of what it does, how it does it, or whether what it is doing works. The Auditor General recommends the federal government fix this, pronto. How can a community rely on these services if the federal government itself isn’t even clear on what it is providing and whether the programs are working?

Lack of a legislative base

“Provincial legislation provides a basis of clarity for services delivered by provinces. A legislative base for programs specifies respective roles and responsibilities, eligibility, and other program elements. It constitutes an unambiguous commitment by government to deliver those services. The result is that accountability and funding are better defined.”
The provinces all have some sort of Education Act that clearly lays out the roles and responsibilities of education authorities, as well as mechanisms of evaluation. There is generally no comparable federal legislation for the provision of First Nations education, health-care, housing and so on.

As noted by the AG, legislation provides clarity and accountability. Without it, decision can be made on an ill-defined ‘policy’ basis or on a completely ad hoc basis.

Lack of an appropriate funding mechanism

The AG focuses on a few areas here.

Lack of service standards for one. Were you aware that provincial building codes do not apply on reserve? Some provincial laws of ‘general application’ (like Highway Traffic Acts) can apply on reserve, but building codes do not. There is a federal National Building Code, but enforcement and inspection has been a major problem. This has been listed as one of the factors in why homes built on reserve do not have a similar ‘life’ to those built off reserve.

Poor timing for provision of funds is another key issue. “Most contribution agreements must be renewed yearly. In previous audits, we found that the funds may not be available until several months into the period to be funded.” This is particularly problematic for housing as “money often doesn’t arrive until late summer, past the peak construction period, so projects get delayed and their costs rise.”

Lack of accountability.

“It is often unclear who is accountable to First Nations members for achieving improved outcomes or specific levels of services. First Nations often cite a lack of federal funding as the main reason for inadequate services. For its part, INAC maintains that the federal government funds services to First Nations but is not responsible for the delivery or provision of these services.”
The AG also refers to a heavy reporting burden put on First Nations, and notes that the endless paperwork often is completely ignored anyway by federal agencies.

Lack of organisations to support local service delivery

This refers once again to the fact that there are no federal school or health boards, no federal infrastructure and expertise. Some programs are delivered through provincial structures, while others are provided directly by the federal government, with less than stellar results.

As the Auditor General states, “Change is needed if meaning full progress is to be realised”. There is extreme lack of clarity about what the federal government is doing, why, how, and whether it is at all effective. No wonder Harper is confused.

Tired yet? Just a few more points.

The Chief of Attawapiskat made $71,000 last year while her people live in tents!

Apparently we are supposed to be outraged at the excess involved here. This of course follows on the heels of a report by the Canadian Taxpayers Federation about ‘jaw-dropping’ reserve salaries. It’s become fashionable to rant about chiefs making more than premiers (though no one could make that claim here).

Attawapiskat publishes its salaries, travel expenses and honorariums (again, nothing being hidden). Chief Theresa Spence was paid $69,575 in salary and honorariums in 2010-2011, and had $1,798 in travel expenses for a total of about $71K.

If you are like most people, you don’t spend a lot of time looking at what public employees actually make. What number wouldn’t shock you in the absence of such context? $50,000? $32,000? I suspect any amount would be offered as some sort of proof that…something’s not right.

Well okay. Why don’t we take a look at some other salaries? Ontario Premier McGuinty made $209,000 in 2010, and apparently over 100 public service executives made more than he did.

It is difficult to do a really accurate comparison of salaries, because Ontario’s Public Sector Salary Disclosure Act (doc) of 1996 only requires that salaries over $100,000 be reported. (In addition, if the salaries are reported elsewhere, they are not necessarily included in this report) However, the annual reports are a fantastic resource. Here is the list of various public sector employees making over $100,000 a year. I offer this merely in order to ask…were you aware these people were making this amount of money?

I sure wasn’t. These are salaries paid by tax dollars too. I have no idea if the Director of Quality Services for the Municipal Property Assessment Corporation should be paid $147,437.58 a year (sorry to single you out, sir, I chose randomly). If this corporation were in the news and having financial difficulties, I have no doubt this salary would be brought up as somehow relevant…but is it?

I don’t know. That’s the point. I don’t think the people bringing it up know either. I haven’t been able to find a source listing the salaries of mayors of municipalities in Ontario to compare to Chief Spence’s salary. Then again, I doubt anyone would seriously claim that if she worked for free, the housing crisis in Attawakpiskat would be over.

A good comment was sent to me recently on the issue of salaries that I’d like to share. “Whenever one is talking about the salaries of say a [premier or a] prime minister versus someone else, two things: 1) parliamentarians get very good pensions and for a relatively short time of service; 2) more particularly, a post like the prime ministership or the presidency of the United States opens up all kinds of doors for later life. So even if the salary is $200,000, the person is virtually guaranteed a very comfortably post-office life. Counsel in a big law firm. Paid corporate director. University professor. Etc. etc. I don’t think we imagine that the Barrick Gold Corporations of the world will be banging down the door of a past chief of Attawapiskat in a comparable way.”

I wonder what kind of pension Chief Spence can count on?

The more you know…

I’m sure I’m forgetting some of the common accusations and arguments being made about Attawapiskat on various forums and comment sections of online news articles. I might update if necessary to address them, but I think you now have at least a base to begin with, whether you honestly just want to understand the situation a little better, or want to fight those comment battles.


How Ottawa spent $90 million at Attawapiskat | Full Comment | National Post (http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/12/04/brett-hodnett-the-real-math-behind-attawapiskats-90-million/)

[Ronin]

Seems like more Occupy bullshit to me.

Seriously, she's been on hunger strike for three weeks and hasn't lost a pound? Gandhi damn near died. This lady is just bullshitting us.

[Ronin]

WAIT...

Looking through the financials, they own shares of Enbridge, which I believe is the corp bringing that pipeline through BC?

...and they're complaining about pipelines?

They're also bigger Apple shareholders than I am. :lol

[flagella]

Pretty good article on G&M

Too many first nations people live in a dream palace - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/too-many-first-nations-people-live-in-a-dream-palace/article6929035/)

[Manic!]

Does anyone know whats in bill c-45? The thing is 400 pages long. How the hell has time to read all that.

[Recon604]

what have natives done for this country anyways?

[dinosaur]

:facepalm:

[KingDeeCee]

A while back I asked another member on Revscene just what the Idle No More movement was. From the best I could surmise it was something involving aboriginals in Canada protesting against Stephen Harper.

I'm not aware of any legislation that Harper had created to cause such ire but the movement continues and it appears that some lady is on a hunger strike because she wants to meet Stephen Harper.

Today I see that there are bridges and borders being blocked and that a ferry in Victoria is also being blocked as a result of this movement.

I can see a lot of people kicking a lot of dirt up about "rights being violated" but even after reading a bunch of articles on the issue I still don't fully understand it. Is this an #Occupy movement? Is the Native community going to demand Harper be removed from office despite his official apology for residential schools and a promise to update the Indian act? How will CharlesInCharge insist that this is somehow a Jewish conspiracy?

Can someone answer any or all of these questions? I think this warrants discussion.

http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b460/gifpro95/684utw.gif

[Manic!]

what have natives done for this country anyways?

Find it. Give the white people maple syrup do they didn't die and killed Nazi's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pnvh66A1Wvc

But really what a dumb post you made.

[dinosaur]

And just to add to Manic's post:

Thousands Volunteer - Veterans Affairs Canada (http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/history/other/native/first_response)

Two Decades Later - Veterans Affairs Canada (http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/history/other/native/second_response)

Veterans Return - Veterans Affairs Canada (http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/history/other/native/vetreturn)

The Canadian Contribution - Veterans Affairs Canada (http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/history/other/native/korea_response)

Aboriginal Contributions to the War of 1812 (http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/1338906261900/1338906300039)

[theevilslave]

I smh at Chief Spence. And CBC just reporting half the story in their articles, clearly sticking to their own agendas rather than the truth.

Playing with propaganda, that's what they are.

[Recon604]

Find it. Give the white people maple syrup do they didn't die and killed Nazi's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pnvh66A1Wvc

But really what a dumb post you made.

You're right I did make a dumb post.

I wanted to say is that what have they done for the Country to where it is at now? All I can see is that they just keep wanting more $$ from the gov because we took their land.

Sure, they are part of Canada's history, but the history is constantly changing so they got to LET GO.

This is total out of whack.

In 2006, Aboriginal people in Canada - First Nations, Métis and Inuit - surpassed the one-million mark, reaching 1,172,790. A lot of them don't live in Native reserves. With population increase and what not, let's say 1,200,000 for 2012.
File Not Found | Fichier non trouvé (http://www12.statcan.ca/census-rece...d/ap-pa-eng.cfm)

In 2011, Department of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development had a yearly budget of 7.4 BILLION dollars.
http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/13...6/1315184508951

That's about $6168 per person per year spent on top of all the regular stuff a Canadian citizen gets. (plus extra benefits Aboriginal person is entitled to)

Just what is being done with this money?

[El Bastardo]

This is why I started this thread. Revscene has thousands of members and most of us have no idea wtf is going on. This thread has almost two dozen posts and we're still confused.

Part of the reason I didn't support the #Occupy movement is because the objective was unclear beyond people just yelling 'RICH BAD! RICH BAD!'

This right here is the #Occupy movement in a single (and local) news clip

CTV News at 6: Mi-Jung Lee gets confronted by an Occupy Vancouver idiot - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCtPTAcigrg#t=3m23s)

"We're mad at the establishment but we're too lazy to try to get elected to enact change from within. Yelling at news cameras and choking public areas out with our masses is much easier"

[MindBomber]

Seems like more Occupy bullshit to me.

Seriously, she's been on hunger strike for three weeks and hasn't lost a pound? Gandhi damn near died. This lady is just bullshitting us.

Ghandi had spent the prior two years in prison, essentially on starvation diet during that time. The condition of Ghandi and Spence's body entering the hunger strike make your comparison irrelevant. I've also not seen a news report featuring Spence stepping on scale daily, so your thesis that she's not lost a pound is also irrelevant since its indefensible.

WAIT...

Looking through the financials, they own shares of Enbridge, which I believe is the corp bringing that pipeline through BC?

...and they're complaining about pipelines?

They're also bigger Apple shareholders than I am. :lol

I've looked through the financials, but must have missed the one including the details of a stock portfolio. Regardless, I don't need to see them to correct you.

Attawapiskat is pro-development, the contract they have with De Beers is evidence of that position. It is not at all surprisingly that Attawapiskat invests in development companies, it's consistent with the general position they take on resources. Not all Bands are Pro-Development, and some of them have spoken out against the Enbridge pipeline.

[belka]

Idle no more is a cranky child at dinnertime who declines all offered food and complains they aren't being fed while asking to eat candy instead. They want 'something done' or 'changes' then proceed to shutdown any and all changes that aren't just wheelbarrows of cash then complain that nothing is being done or things never change.

While real nations negotiate trade deals and cooperate to enhance economic development too many native nations are unwilling to do either.

I've also not seen a news report featuring Spence stepping on scale daily, so your thesis that she's not lost a pound is also irrelevant since its indefensible

Whatever diet she is on, its not working. She is still fat. Could be all that room service she is eating...

Chief Spence heads to hotel “to shower and nap” – Is that where she’s really been staying? « BC Blue: One BC Conservative's view on it all… (http://bcblue.wordpress.com/2013/01/04/chief-spence-heads-to-hotel-to-shower-and-nap-is-that-where-shes-really-been-staying/)

[MindBomber]

You're right I did make a dumb post.

I wanted to say is that what have they done for the Country to where it is at now? All I can see is that they just keep wanting more $$ from the gov because we took their land.

Sure, they are part of Canada's history, but the history is constantly changing so they got to LET GO.

This is total out of whack.

In 2006, Aboriginal people in Canada - First Nations, Métis and Inuit - surpassed the one-million mark, reaching 1,172,790. A lot of them don't live in Native reserves. With population increase and what not, let's say 1,200,000 for 2012.
File Not Found | Fichier non trouvé (http://www12.statcan.ca/census-rece...d/ap-pa-eng.cfm)

In 2011, Department of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development had a yearly budget of 7.4 BILLION dollars.
http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/13...6/1315184508951

That's about $6168 per person per year spent on top of all the regular stuff a Canadian citizen gets. (plus extra benefits Aboriginal person is entitled to)

Just what is being done with this money?

The Department of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development budget is allocated to cover the cost of health care, education, social services, infrastructure, and I believe ongoing legal costs involved with treaty negotiations.

The Indian Act defines an Aboriginal person as a ward of the Federal Government, and thus, costs related to social expenses normally covered at the Provincial level are shifted to the budget you cite. The $6168 average per person does not contribute to a slush fund, it covers elementary, highschool, and post-secondary education (where applicable), health care costs, including clinic and hospitals visits, social services, and yes, a limited measure of funds to cover the cost of housing. The funds are not for special and dedicated to reparations, rather they are little different than those received by ordinary Canadians except allocated through a different agency. Just to elaborate further - Aboriginal people are required to pay taxes under all but select circumstances. Aboriginal people are only tax exempt if employed on land held by a Reserve; I'm not positive, but under certain circumstances, ordinary Canadians would receive the same exemption employed on a reserve.

Aboriginal people also are not merely seeking ongoing payments from the Federal Government. Tsawwassen is a good local example, they've volunteered to relinquish any special funding, and taking it as step further, begin paying the Federal Government taxes on revenue generated on the reserve.


Whatever diet she is on, its not working. She is still fat. Could be all that room service she is eating...

Chief Spence heads to hotel “to shower and nap” – Is that where she’s really been staying? « BC Blue: One BC Conservative's view on it all… (http://bcblue.wordpress.com/2013/01/04/chief-spence-heads-to-hotel-to-shower-and-nap-is-that-where-shes-really-been-staying/)

Spence does look to have lost weight, but she was quite ample when the protest began, so its to be expected that she wouldn't be thin after only 25 days.

Spence has not been secretive about trips to shower, and anything other accusation is conjecture.

Spence isn't Ghandi, she's not too hard off given the showers and moose broth, but she's also not compared herself to any other protester or exaggerated her own duress.

[subordinate]

When I first heard of "Idle no more", I assumed that it was something about drivers reducing/eliminating idling.

Lol.

From what I can interpret, this "Idle No More" protest was about the new proposed Bill as people have mentioned. And why it relates to Theresa Spence? She wanted to use her past fame/notoriety to bring more light to the proposed Bill.

And it wouldn't be surprising if she wants to be bring more support for more funding for Attawapiskat. Those financials....the administration/employee payables are definitely up there. The sad fact is, none of us will actually know what most of those band members actually do. For all we know, they could be shuffling papers and being paid 50,000.

And the administration fees on some of those programs...Jesus.

TL DR:

1. Idle No More: Started by a group of 4 concerned about the proposed Bill (Infringing on their rights and abilities to say no)
2. Day after the first call to action protest, Theresa Spence joins in with her crazy antics of Starvation.
3. Theresa Spence's fame of Attawapiskat drastically overshadows the main "Idle No More" protest. i.e//funding, housing crisis, mismanagement.
4. >20,000 facebook likes and protestors don't have no fucken clue what they are protesting about. i.e// Kony 2012,2013, Occupy, Yolo

What's up with that Band Member being paid just over 120,000. I want to know his responsibilities.

[StylinRed]

ezra levant... really? really? :fulloffuck: never thought id see anyone remotely reasonable quoting the Ann Coulter of Canada

as for that blog :fuckthatshit:

and she is subsisting on fish soup
as for any other remarks on her hunger strike you could read this first How a hunger strike affects the body - Canada - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2013/01/03/f-hunger-strike-human-body.html)

[Ronin]

Ghandi had spent the prior two years in prison, essentially on starvation diet during that time. The condition of Ghandi and Spence's body entering the hunger strike make your comparison irrelevant. I've also not seen a news report featuring Spence stepping on scale daily, so your thesis that she's not lost a pound is also irrelevant since its indefensible.

I've looked through the financials, but must have missed the one including the details of a stock portfolio. Regardless, I don't need to see them to correct you.

Attawapiskat is pro-development, the contract they have with De Beers is evidence of that position. It is not at all surprisingly that Attawapiskat invests in development companies, it's consistent with the general position they take on resources. Not all Bands are Pro-Development, and some of them have spoken out against the Enbridge pipeline.

Either way, eating soup is not a hunger strike.

How about you do a Google search for Attawapiskat. It's on their website, under financial details. They own roughly 1400 shared of Enbridge for a little over $50k. Not much but it seems to be a conflict if one of the points of the Idle No More movement is environmental impact and they're investing in one of the companies most involved in the pipelines.

It also seems they make plenty of money. Their records show surpluses in the annual budget.

Regardless, this just sounds like whining that will eventually go away and be forgotten like all the other blockades and protests and Occupy.

[StylinRed]

Either way, eating soup is not a hunger strike.


it's actually still considered a hunger strike if you're just taking liquids

[MindBomber]

Either way, eating soup is not a hunger strike.

How about you do a Google search for Attawapiskat. It's on their website, under financial details. They own roughly 1400 shared of Enbridge for a little over $50k. Not much but it seems to be a conflict if one of the points of the Idle No More movement is environmental impact and they're investing in one of the companies most involved in the pipelines.

It also seems they make plenty of money. Their records show surpluses in the annual budget.

Regardless, this just sounds like whining that will eventually go away and be forgotten like all the other blockades and protests and Occupy.

No, it's not a conflict. The 'Idle No More' movement does not propose industrial development be halted.

Strictly speaking, a supporter of the 'Idle No More' movement would need to be in favour of a stricter Environmental Assessment of the Enbridge project before it proceeds, but not opposed to it in principle.

'Idle No More' protests the Conservative Governments changes to the Environmental Assessment Process in bill C-45. The Omnibus bill includes changes such as considering only commercially valuable fisheries during Environmental assessments, and this is an obvious issue for a people concerned with Environmental protection. 'Idle No More' also protests the lack of progress made on treaty negotiations, and a contention point in many of those is the role of Bands in the Environment Assessment process. The majority of current treaties entitle a Band to send a letter to the Environment Minister, which is something any of us could do. Out of the treaties I've read or discussed, the strongest position is a requirement for the Environment Minister to acknowledge receipt of a Band's letter on an issue.

[CorneringArtist]

I know who can get this movement into gear! Terry Nelson is more than capable with his penchant for direct conflict!

:troll:

On a serious note however, I'm having a bit of a hard time pinpointing the purpose of the movement myself. What if there is in fact a resolution to the Bill proposal? Will they go the way of #Occupy and start blaming things that had nothing to do with the original point just because there's a spotlight on them? Too many times I noticed that #Occupy stopped blaming the "1%" for their problems and started pointing fingers at organizations that damaged the environment, perform inhumane medical testing, etc. Are these related to financial unrest at all? They have Greenpeace and PETA respectively for those.

[Gridlock]

Once again, I'd like to thank Mindbomber for single-handedly explaining what these things actually mean, and doing so continually in the face of sarcasm, mild racism and occasional ignorance.

I'm concerned. I liked what the conservatives did for the first few years, and shocking! it was done during a minority gov't. He gets a majority and suddenly its a fire sale of conservative wet dreams concerning development, environmental review and treatment of some core Canadian values as something that can be negotiated away.

To sit there and say, "but its not a 'for realz' hunger strike" is kind of missing the point. I could care less for what she eats drinks and shits. The idea is, there are MASSIVE legal changes being undertaken and its going to alter the way we, as a country do business for a generation. Long after the current gov't is out of office, we have the potential of feeling the effects.

The key is going to be...are we ok with that?

Even better...at least now we are at least asking the question. Maybe the answer is yes. Who knows. It's better than being blind to it.

[belka]

Winnipeg Free Press reported this morning that the INM movement had blocked a rail line and someone was tampering with the rail signals, which is illegal. VIA said they would investigate and prosecute those responsible. Tampering with rail signals thus endangering lives is more than mischief. It's terrorism. I'd give these protests another two weeks maybe. By then the media will be tired of covering small groups of people hanging around burning trash barrels in below zero weather.

[dinosaur]

Okay....here are my two cents.

C-45 is a massive bill that includes a ton of shit ranging from FN issues to Hazardous Materials to the grain commissions and builds on previously controversial bills such as that one that cut massive amounts of funding to the environment last year. Very few people know what Bill C-45 contains because nobody wants to sit and read all 500 pages of it.

These massive bills concern me because its all or nothing with them. You can't pass parts of the bill while rejecting the other and we need to rely on of representatives to actually read the whole fucking thing. I also think these massive bills are a fantastic opportunity for the gov't to pass shit that wouldn't normally get passed because it is buried in between shit nobody cares about.

I appreciate the these protest for bring light to this bill because as average Canadians, I don't think any of us would have any idea what "C-45" is. In regards to the actual protest, its a little different. The unfortunate thing is that most people don't know about about C-45 and don't know about FN issues, the Treaty process, the Indian Act, the Reservation system, etc. Hell, I studied it for years....worked with the process....and I barely grasp it. I think it is a muddled mess.

Do I agree with them protesting? I agree with the right to protest period. I think the problem is, that message is a little unclear. Yes, we need aboriginal rights, faster treaty process, more help for the north communities, etc....but I am not seeing that message.

Someone just asked me "why don't they all just unit and fight together? why don't they elect one person to lead them?" My answer is it would be impossible. Imagine taking every single Canadian and uniting them for one cause and only one cause. Wouldn't happen. Everyone wants something different because different thing effect them. FN on the west coast are totally different than those in the north....or those in Ontario. There are 1000s of Indian band....some are in the middle of the treaty process, some don't want treaty, some have joined nation councils, some fight with each other, some form new councils, some bands have 20 members, and some have 20,000 members. People seem to forget this. We can't deal with them as one unit. Some nations have been given millions of dollars while others have been given nothing. Some nations have floundered from piss-poor management while others have flourished and become independent. You can visit some reservations that have massive modern infrastructures and a well developed economic plan while others have a mailbox. The FNs of Canada can not be dealt with with one large paint brush....and I think this is the problem.

Its one big muddled fucked up mess...and I have no idea how these problems will be solved. Its all very confusing and frustrating.

[Gridlock]

I found the same thing with the Occupy "movement".

At first, I supported what was happening, throughout major cities all over. Collectively, people saying, the top 2% control 50-60% of the wealth. A ridiculous number. It wasn't about socialism, it wasn't about hand outs, it was the idea that the tax tables could be modified to make it a fair system.

THEN...it went into a bizarre area. They finally released their manifesto, and it was a mockery, asking for a change to everything under the sun and lost focus.

The same thing could happen here. I think you stand a chance of affecting "change" if you pick the ONE item you want changed. What are you truly trying to accomplish, something that those in the core of your group agree with, and canadians at large can support. You might have to leave some stuff on the table.

[Ronin]

Any guesses on how much media coverage this will get now that hockey's back and it's not slow news time anymore?

[CharlesInCharge]

Looking forward to seeing more blockades and Im betting the Zionist media will be reporting peoples first world problems all the while ignoring the first nations plight.
Idle no more - YouTube

PressTV - Canada ignores rights of aboriginals: First Nations grand chief (http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/01/04/281737/canada-ignores-first-nations-rights/)

[El Bastardo]

:neckbeard:

[Tapioca]

I have personally explained the reasons why the relationship between Canada and First Nations is the way that it is on other threads, but there are too many people here that are ignorant, misinformed, and have had no experience with First Nations and their communities.

I'm glad that dino, Gridlock, and MindBomber are fighting the good fight and trying to explain to all of the brilliant minds on RS the situation with First Nations in Canada.

[Everymans]

How'd these people manage to survive in that region before the age of government funding? Must have been harsh.

[noclue]

I'm going to be super ignorant but has anyone here met a successful native? I've travelled throughout Canada especially in cities/towns near reserves and I never met one in all my life. Every native I've seen from personal anecdote they are all criminals/drunks/bums/entitlement complex/racists. Your tax dollars at work!

by successful I mean a respectable job or white-collar professional/expert tradesmen who earned their success INDEPENDENTLY. Don't cite the ones in Westbank because they just lease out the land they got tax-free.

My opinion is that due to the dependency on money from the government, theres no motivation for natives to pursue success. See the "Welfare Trap" as an example. I think Canada should now just abolish the Indian act, say sorry to the Natives for what Canada/British Empire did 200 years ago one more time, perhaps pay a final settlement fee and stop giving money to the natives.

[SiRV]

CBC - 8th Fire - TV - Indigenous in the City (http://www.cbc.ca/doczone/8thfire//2011/11/indigenious-in-the-city.html)

Unfortunately in my personal experiences, most that I have met have fit the stereotype, feeling victimized, entitled to everything etc. There are some that are successful and a bunch of new-middle class citizens. For some reason though they seem to be pretty few, and far in between.

[El Bastardo]

My opinion is that due to the dependency on money from the government, theres no motivation for natives to pursue success. See the "Welfare Trap" as an example. I think Canada should now just abolish the Indian act, say sorry to the Natives for what Canada/British Empire did 200 years ago one more time, perhaps pay a final settlement fee and stop giving money to the natives.


You know, I took a class in high school and brought up the idea of generations being dependent on a system that provides for their needs. I was derided for being a 'racist' and 'insensitive'.

I suppose some of that's coming out now because I had written a post questioning why 4.3% of the population had a fully integrated special interest program ranging from access to the crown right down to its own justice and court system but I just couldn't hit "Submit Reply". I guess I've been conditioned to believe that Natives deserve more than the rest of us.

Anyhow, I'm not a racist. I would rather like to see other groups like Asians (11% of the population) or Indo-Canadians (4% of the population) receive similar benefits, or nobody receive them at all to ensure that there is no ill will.


I think Tapioca believes anybody who criticizes the Natives, their spending, or their actions is 'ignorant' which is understandable. There are certainly a lot of negative attitudes out there and I've seen racial slurs come up on this site on this topic. But I don't think we're focusing on those perceptions some people may have. I think we're looking at the facts, even those from Ezra Lavant and Sun News, and asking some questions that need to be asked.

And I'll use that to circle around back to the point of this thread and the original post.

What does this movement hope to accomplish? And is blocking borders and sabotaging rail lines the best way to go about it?

[CharlesInCharge]

I'm going to be super ignorant but has anyone here met a successful native? I've travelled throughout Canada especially in cities/towns near reserves and I never met one in all my life. Every native I've seen from personal anecdote they are all criminals/drunks/bums/entitlement complex/racists. Your tax dollars at work!

by successful I mean a respectable job or white-collar professional/expert tradesmen who earned their success INDEPENDENTLY. Don't cite the ones in Westbank because they just lease out the land they got tax-free.

My opinion is that due to the dependency on money from the government, theres no motivation for natives to pursue success. See the "Welfare Trap" as an example. I think Canada should now just abolish the Indian act, say sorry to the Natives for what Canada/British Empire did 200 years ago one more time, perhaps pay a final settlement fee and stop giving money to the natives.
Dude, why are you in Canada anyway? because your parents are here... when did your background come here and why?

Its like who leaves their family, immediate and extended, to start a new life in another country... did they escape some kind of persecution or low standard of living to banish them selves here? or did your background by chance be the Anglo Caucasians that were taken from their British parents and made to live here?

[Jason00S2000]

by successful I mean a respectable job or white-collar professional/expert tradesmen who earned their success INDEPENDENTLY. Don't cite the ones in Westbank because they just lease out the land they got tax-free.



Yes, a native guy who got into the IT business. He was unable to even visit the reserve as he had been threatened for "selling out."

[Jason00S2000]

Anyhow, I'm not a racist. I would rather like to see other groups like Asians (11% of the population) or Indo-Canadians (4% of the population) receive similar benefits, or nobody receive them at all to ensure that there is no ill will.



If the government tried to cut off natives from getting paid, they would create an armed insurrection like the taliban in Afghanistan. I swear to god I could see that happening. The Canadian government will be paying native people in perpetuity to avoid that from happening.

[Mr.Money]

Yes, a native guy who got into the IT business. He was unable to even visit the reserve as he had been threatened for "selling out."


Haha...what a shit hole ghetto but can you really label everyone like that?,Anyways I respect everybody's Opinion,even the "racist" ones.


If the government tried to cut off natives from getting paid, they would create an armed insurrection like the taliban in Afghanistan. I swear to god I could see that happening. The Canadian government will be paying native people in perpetuity to avoid that from happening.

more like the Mexican drug cartel,look what happens when their own government doesn't give them shit & their on there own for income in illegal drug/gun trade

[MindBomber]

How'd these people manage to survive in that region before the age of government funding? Must have been harsh.

Certainly, it definitely would have been harsh.

Prior to European influence, First Nations people were primarily a nomadic society sustained by subsistence hunting and gathering. To return to a completely traditional lifestyle would be impossible, because of the vast land requirements associated with it. The sto:lo people did not traditionally number beyond a few thousand individuals, the lands that once sustained those communities are now occupied by millions of individuals living in the cities of Hope, Chilliwack, Agassiz, Mission, Abbotsford, Langley, Surrey... etc. Reserves and Government subsidization were a means to industrialize Canada by getting the inhabitants out of the way.

I'm going to be super ignorant but has anyone here met a successful native? I've travelled throughout Canada especially in cities/towns near reserves and I never met one in all my life. Every native I've seen from personal anecdote they are all criminals/drunks/bums/entitlement complex/racists. Your tax dollars at work!

by successful I mean a respectable job or white-collar professional/expert tradesmen who earned their success INDEPENDENTLY. Don't cite the ones in Westbank because they just lease out the land they got tax-free.

My opinion is that due to the dependency on money from the government, theres no motivation for natives to pursue success. See the "Welfare Trap" as an example. I think Canada should now just abolish the Indian act, say sorry to the Natives for what Canada/British Empire did 200 years ago one more time, perhaps pay a final settlement fee and stop giving money to the natives.

I've met countless successful First Nations people, they've pursued careers in law, medicine, trades, education, art, and every other other field you'd expect to encounter a person of any other race. I've also met First Nations people who have achieved more, mediocre, success in life, but not a disproportionately high number compared to the Caucasian, Indo-Canadian, Asian people I know.

Your thesis that social programs abolish any motivation for a First Nations person to pursue success is fundamentally flawed, because you fail to realize, every person of any race is entitled to the same benefits. You are entitled to quit your job, wait a few months, and then claim welfare, living off $750 a month indefinitely. You would not though, so to reason a First Nations person would, just because you could, is absurd.

There are Bands across the country taking out private multi-million dollar loans to fund the legal costs required to attain self-governance and be exempted from the Indian Act, so many are already ahead of you on that point.

Yes, a native guy who got into the IT business. He was unable to even visit the reserve as he had been threatened for "selling out."

In all my life, I've never heard anything so absurd. If your story is true, there's more to the IT guy's situation that simply being successful.

You know, I took a class in high school and brought up the idea of generations being dependent on a system that provides for their needs. I was derided for being a 'racist' and 'insensitive'.

I suppose some of that's coming out now because I had written a post questioning why 4.3% of the population had a fully integrated special interest program ranging from access to the crown right down to its own justice and court system but I just couldn't hit "Submit Reply". I guess I've been conditioned to believe that Natives deserve more than the rest of us.

I think Canada has a responsibility atone for its actions, and so if the policy of past-Governments can be reasonably said to have contributed to the disproportional representation of one specific race in the prison system then an effort should be made to correct the imbalance. It's been established imprisonment is generally an ineffective 'rehabilitation' method for First Nation people, and so an effort should be made to find something that does work, and to correct the disproportional figures by breaking multi-generational cycles. I'll also point out, and I know you've read my say this previously, First Nations people generally do not receive an enormous measure of special benefits. It may seem as such, but there are only a select number of cases where that's true, and mostly do to past-Governments poorly executed attempts at pushing First Nations people aside (Post-Secondary Education funding, you might remember, once came with the caveat of relinquishing status). Most often, First Nations people just receive funding through different channels because of the Indian Act, so it seems like they're being given special treatment when they're really not.

If the government tried to cut off natives from getting paid, they would create an armed insurrection like the taliban in Afghanistan. I swear to god I could see that happening. The Canadian government will be paying native people in perpetuity to avoid that from happening.

I will again note, First Nations people really do not receive substantial benefits beyond those offered to any person of any race.

If the Canadian Government were to stop heavily subsidizing Post-Secondary Education, turning it into a bourgeoisies privilege, an armed insurrection would also take place.

[Tapioca]

I think Tapioca believes anybody who criticizes the Natives, their spending, or their actions is 'ignorant' which is understandable. There are certainly a lot of negative attitudes out there and I've seen racial slurs come up on this site on this topic. But I don't think we're focusing on those perceptions some people may have. I think we're looking at the facts, even those from Ezra Lavant and Sun News, and asking some questions that need to be asked.


My statement was not intended to give people like Chief Spence a free pass. My statement was directed to those who talk about getting rid of Indian reserves, or about taking away "programs" for First Nations, or who those who think that First Nations shouldn't claim previous entitlements that are based on agreements signed a long time ago.

The system of reserves and Indian "entitlements", programs or whatever you want to call them is based largely based on two things:

1. The law: S.91 of the Constitution, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and the treaties that the British and Canadian governments have signed with First Nations all across the country.
2. Supreme Court decisions which have affirmed First Nation treaties and rights.

I encourage anyone interested to actually read what s.91 of the Constitution, s.35 of the Charter, or any of the treaties say so that you can start to understand why we have a Department of Indian Affairs, why the government continues to give money to First Nations, and why, unfortunately, people like Chief Spence sometimes come along. The links are here:

Constitution Acts, 1867 to 1982 (http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/Const/page-4.html#docCont)
Constitution Acts, 1867 to 1982 (http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/Const/page-16.html#docCont)
Treaty Guides (http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/1100100028653/1100100028654)

Of course some will ask, why don't we just get rid of the Indian Act? Remove the special status of First Nations by statute. Jean Chretien (remember him?) already tried that... in 1969 in the famous "White Paper":

Statement of the Government of Canada on Indian policy (The White Paper, 1969) (http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/1100100010189/1100100010191)

Indian Chiefs opposed this proposal. From the early 1970s to the present, a number of disputes have been brought to the courts which have not only affirmed existing First Nation rights, but also given life to previously undefined concepts like Aboriginal title. Aboriginal title basically means that First Nations continue to have an entitlement to any land that they used historically until it that right has been extinguished through formal means, such as a treaty, or other agreement. An example of the concept of Aboriginal title in action: Aboriginal title is why First Nations in northern BC are protesting the Enbridge pipeline.

Read Delgamuukw: Delgamuukw v. British Columbia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delgamuukw_v._British_Columbia)
Read Haida and Taku River: News - Supreme Court of Canada Decisions in <em>Haida</em> and <em>Taku River</em> (http://www.blakes.com/english/view.asp?ID=121)

These links should keep those who are interested busy for a while.

[Gridlock]

Yes, a native guy who got into the IT business. He was unable to even visit the reserve as he had been threatened for "selling out."

There are going to be assholes everywhere.

Some people will be jealous. We lived on the same street, we ate the same shit and had the same hardships...how'd you get out and I didn't?

Instead of looking honestly and saying, maybe he wasn't drinking as much, and maybe he paid a bit more attention, and maybe, just maybe, he caught a lucky break(which we ALL do), its easier to point a finger, call him names and say he's a sell out.

That's not a native problem. That's a human problem.

[Gumby]

Surprisingly, in this thread, the number of informative posts actually exceeds the number of idiotic posts. And for the intelligent posters, I salute you! :)

[GLOW]

In before CharlesInCharge.
Posted via RS Mobile

Looking forward to seeing more blockades and Im betting the Zionist media will be reporting peoples first world problems all the while ignoring the first nations plight.


http://ct.fra.bz/ol/fz/sw/i56/5/9/15/frabz-Ive-been-expecting-you-879c2f.jpg

[MindBomber]

Surprisingly, in this thread, the number of informative posts actually exceeds the number of idiotic posts. And for the intelligent posters, I salute you! :)

I'm very satisfied to say, there's been a significant change in the direction of First Nations threads.

I had only relatively recently joined RS when a thread concerning a counterfeit bill being passed arose, and the suspect was described as First Nations. Instantly, the thread exploded, "Never trust a Native," "Natives are all drunken, drug abusing, thieves," "I've never met a sober Indian," and these posts received avalanches of 'Thanks,' but never points. The outright racist posts seem to have since disappeared, only occasionally subtle racists tones remain, and even they seem to not arise from a genuine dislike or resentment towards First Nations people. The collective effort to dispel misconceptions, and above all, the willingness to discuss the issues and listen to the responses has actually had a tangible affect! Thank You, Tapioca, Dino, Grid, Graham, EB, CA, Lomac, and even you CiC (although Terry Nelson is a tool). As a person very proud to have a First Nations heritage, it makes me smile to see the change.

[dared3vil0]

In my opinion, The treaties and the reserves should be disbanded. We took what was theirs as the spoils of war, Whether right or wrong, Good or bad, It is what happened back then. Do you see (what's left of the) Mayans demanding ridiculous things because the Spanish were much more powerful and conquered them? No. Why should we give tax cuts, And allow them to have their own reserves when they are no different than me, or you...?

[CharlesInCharge]

You're sanctioning a murderer who still holds the spoils of war booty... who are you the Pope?

The first nations have pride in their race and so should any other race... like white pride.
Why should they sell themselves short, this is their right and as an occupying settler myself, I see this as first nations land.

[dared3vil0]

You're sanctioning a murderer who still holds the spoils of war booty... who are you the Pope?

The first nations have pride in their race and so should any other race... like white pride.
Why should they sell themselves short, this is their right and as an occupying settler myself, I see this as first nations land.

Occupying settler? Comon. Is this the 1850's? Like i said... Where else in the world do people who have been conquered given so many extra's as the Natives?

[CharlesInCharge]

You mean what other Zionist Commonwealth occupations are giving out as much... because no other entity comes to mind. The first nations of Canada are not asking anymore, they're demanding.
Would you go to war against them if a jungle war broke out in our mineral extraction zones?
I doubt it, they'd fight for pride while you'd travel to any other country to settle if there was a draft.

[fT-z33wor]

In my opinion, The treaties and the reserves should be disbanded. We took what was theirs as the spoils of war, Whether right or wrong, Good or bad, It is what happened back then. Do you see (what's left of the) Mayans demanding ridiculous things because the Spanish were much more powerful and conquered them? No. Why should we give tax cuts, And allow them to have their own reserves when they are no different than me, or you...?

I think you have to understand the First Nation's people were never conquered to begin with. To disband treaties and reserves and justify it by using the spoils of war ideology would not work as it would be incorrectly applied.

The First Nations to my knowledge were allied and worked together with the early colonialists. Despite being primarily Nomadic, many were receptive to change and embraced the Western agriculture life style with an open mind. It was due to the fact that they were continually exploited by early settlers and the Indian department during the time.

It was obvious the Europeans were far more technologically advanced at the time and along with that comes a better lifestyle. You have to understand the First Nations were a group of people eager to learn, they saw what the Europeans had and they want to adapt it to their own culture. They agreed to recognize the sovereignty of the Queen because they were promised of all the greatness that comes along with her and Britain, when in fact quite the contrary happened.

I'm not sure if you know but treaties are a result of Royal Proclaimation. The King of Britain declared the recognition of Indian land and made it manditory for any transaction of Indian territory done through treaties. It was so settlers would just take over and set up camp wherever the hell they want, this dates back to 1763 so it's not something we can just get rid of.

[Ronin]

...let's not fool ourselves here. If First Nations went to war with Canada, they would get destroyed. Canada isn't exactly a world power when it comes to military but they have greater training, resources and numbers.

I agree with one of the above posters. They signed a legal document. Okay, Canada says "Dude, we were such dicks to you guys." and give them all the stuff Canada does already but still they want more.

What happens if Canada one day just up and says "No."? Do they declare war? Because Harper just has to give the US a call and it's goodbye First Nations if they use more agressive tactics. It wouldn't look good for Canada but in the event one day the government just says no more...what sort of leverage does First Nations have?

[Manic!]

...let's not fool ourselves here. If First Nations went to war with Canada, they would get destroyed.

What happened to the US in Iraq. If there was a war they would just go into hiding and come out at night to kill some civilians.

[Ronin]

True...that might happen but also consider that the Americans weren't on their home turf in Iraq (or Vietnam).

Also consider that even the Iraqis, Al Qaida, the Taliban, etc were all probably better funded and armed than First Nations.

I'm not suggesting we go to war but I'm wondering what the plan is if Canada says no. What happens when they reach the end of their white guilt and just say "Y'know what? We're done here."

[MindBomber]

In my opinion, The treaties and the reserves should be disbanded. We took what was theirs as the spoils of war, Whether right or wrong, Good or bad, It is what happened back then. Do you see (what's left of the) Mayans demanding ridiculous things because the Spanish were much more powerful and conquered them? No. Why should we give tax cuts, And allow them to have their own reserves when they are no different than me, or you...?

Occupying settler? Comon. Is this the 1850's? Like i said... Where else in the world do people who have been conquered given so many extra's as the Natives?

Australia and America make use of a comparable treaty process to Canada, and a number of other nations grant land rights to indigenous people.

Reserves were established by the Canadian Government more than a century ago, formal negotiations were undertaken and an agreement reached. The agreement cannot be nullified by the ancestors of one member, because you no longer consider it beneficial. The term, 'Indian Giver,' is oddly appropriate for your proposal.

First Nations people are only granted tax cuts for income earned on a reserve, it's hardly a generous benefit given the limited availability of work.

True...that might happen but also consider that the Americans weren't on their home turf in Iraq (or Vietnam).

Also consider that even the Iraqis, Al Qaida, the Taliban, etc were all probably better funded and armed than First Nations.

I'm not suggesting we go to war but I'm wondering what the plan is if Canada says no. What happens when they reach the end of their white guilt and just say "Y'know what? We're done here."

You've proposed a silly, hypothetical question. Canada will not say, "no." Canada will not be offered exemption from the agreements it willfully entered, as the Supreme Court has routinely made clear. "White guilt" is not a consideration, only legal process. Canada only recently ended a formal policy of genocide, and will not be re-engaging in it to contravene the rulings of its courts. First Nations people have no need to hoard weapons, nor substitute teaching children ancestral stories and artist abilities for guerilla tactics and IED construction.

[Tapioca]

What happens if Canada one day just up and says "No."? Do they declare war? Because Harper just has to give the US a call and it's goodbye First Nations if they use more agressive tactics. It wouldn't look good for Canada but in the event one day the government just says no more...what sort of leverage does First Nations have?

Ever heard of the Oka crisis? Look it up on Wikipedia.

It's not like the federal government hasn't tried a variety of tactics over the years to wean First Nations people off of the state coffers. Residential schools to turn First Nations into "self-sufficient" citizens, banning bands from hiring lawyers to pursue grievances in the court system, and so on.

What the government does is a matter of law backed by the courts. Most of these decisions made are based on legal risk assessments or follow litigation that the federal government loses. If the government defies a court decision, then you no longer have a functioning society because the rule of law is effectively null and void. You want to go down that road for the sake of saving some money?
Posted via RS Mobile

[dared3vil0]

Zionist Commonwealth occupations

I'm just curious, But were you down at the peace arch the other day? :badpokerface: Or perhaps haven't taken your medication today? :suspicious:

[fT-z33wor]

You've proposed a silly, hypothetical question. Canada will not say, "no." Canada will not be offered exemption from the agreements it willfully entered, as the Supreme Court has routinely made clear. "White guilt" is not a consideration, only legal process.

+1

I'm not suggesting we go to war but I'm wondering what the plan is if Canada says no. What happens when they reach the end of their white guilt and just say "Y'know what? We're done here."

I don't think that is possible to do without making amendments to our Charter, or compromising our judicial system. The government of Canada is still held accountable in the court of law as part of the doctrine of responsible government.

For the government to say "No, we're through here", simply won't hold up in a court of law. The Indian Act is a part of our Charter under s.91, and a Supreme Court judge will slam down anything that infringes on our Charter.

It is the very reason why our courts have judicial independence, as the Supreme Court judge's decision is the final say, and the government has to stand down and comply.

What the government can do is make amendments to our Charter, but again that would be political suicide.

[Ronin]

I think you misunderstand me. This Idle No More movement has certain demands. They're so adamantly against C-45...what happens if the Harper government just ignores their requests and goes ahead with their plan? I don't mean cutting them off entirely. That seems unlikely but Canada could say this is what we have, this is what we can give you and you aren't getting any more.

And what if the protests get more intense? The Indian Act says blockades are illegal, no?

[RRxtar]

they want their land back. but they are more than happy to keep modern medicine, glasses, pants, cars, hot water, and dump truck loads of money.

how many natives would prefer to have all of their land back with a loin cloth and a stick and stone axe to the modern life they have now?

ya, we took their land. but we gave them so much more than reserves, tax breaks, and money.


imo, reserves and the handouts are the problem. it gives too many of them a reason to not meld into the rest of society and it straight up tells them they are different.

[noclue]

Northern BC and offshore BC has a ton of oil & gas ready to make BC rich like Alberta. Tons of money will be poured into BC but environmentalists and native groups protest area are reallly being a pain, some even threatening with terrorism if they get built "on our land."

I've heard that the American natives don't have much power as Canadian natives do because they've been conquered by the US instead of trying to co-exist/assimilate (Canada).

[jasonturbo]

For those that don't already know, I'm conservative as a MOFO, work in oil, caucasian, hate paying taxes etc... basically the opposite of a bleeding heart-tree hugger with very limited compassion for others and almost no concept of empathy.

But for some reason, I actually <3 the injians' (Yes I know), if someone were to ask me what a "Canadian" is, the first thing that crosses my mind is the first nations people, and I actually appreciate the cultural contribution to this country more than most people will ever believe. I do think that it is reasonable for federal funds to be spent preserving Canada's true heritage and culture.

Now the catch, I lived in Hay River, Yellowknife, and the North side of Edmonton... all very heavy in aboriginal population compared to here lol.. and I can honestly say that the unfortunate result of the way things have transpired over the years is that the Govt has assisted in creating a very unhealthy environment. I believe the Govt knows this and thats why nothing will change, they are terrified of making it worse. The sense of entitlement amongst most of the injians' I have met is unreal, and quite sad really... and I don't think it helps them at all.

Nothing makes me happier than the odd FN person I run into at work who actually has their shit together, trouble is the environment most of these people grow up in... is not conducive to being successful, at least not in the typical North American sense... lol

I dunno, I do think this hunger strike is bull shit though, get off Lord Harpers lawn you gipsy bitch.

[MindBomber]

British Columbia and the Federal government spent $15,332 per capita in 2010.

Alberta and the Federal government spent $16,888 per capita in 2010.

Saskatchewan and the Federal government spent $16,335 per capita in 2010.

Manitoba and the Federal government spent $17,070 per capita in 2010.

Ontario and the Federal government spent $15,324 per capita in 2010.

Quebec and the Federal government spent $11,148 per capita 2010.

New Brunswick and the Federal government spent $16,680 per capita in 2010.

Prince Edward Island and the Federal government spent $16,943 per capita in 2010.

Nova Scotia and the Federal government spent $15,673 per capita in 2010.

Newfoundland and the Federal government spent $19,623 per capita in 2010.

The following is an outline of the Consolidated Government Revenue and Expenditures (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/govt48b-eng.htm)

http://s9.postimage.org/fx3fa8ijj/INM.png

Health, Social Services, Education, Housing, and Regional Planning and Development costs equal an average conservative total of $12,077 per capita.

As required by the Indian Act - the Federal Government assumes expenses associated with First Nations education, housing, community infrastructure (water and sewage systems), social support services, and health benefits. Including the cost of ongoing treaty negotiations, the Federal government spent $6168 per capita total on First Nations and Aboriginal people in 2011.

That amounts to a spending difference of at least $5909 per capita, greater than a 49% disparity.

Not surprisingly - one of the most fundamental complaints arising from reserves such as Attawapiskat is the low quality of education, health care, and infrastructure.

Given these figures, I'm straining to understand the perpetuation of the myth that First Nations people are severely entitled, and receiving benefits greatly above that of 'ordinary' Canadians.

Everyone screams - FUCK DAMN ENTITLED DRUNK INDIANS, but the real problem is THE DAMN ENTITLED DRUNK NEWFIE FISHERMAN. (I'm being facetious, of course).

I both welcome and strongly encourage a person to dispute my points.

I think you misunderstand me. This Idle No More movement has certain demands. They're so adamantly against C-45...what happens if the Harper government just ignores their requests and goes ahead with their plan? I don't mean cutting them off entirely. That seems unlikely but Canada could say this is what we have, this is what we can give you and you aren't getting any more.

And what if the protests get more intense? The Indian Act says blockades are illegal, no?


Nothing, and that's the essential point, and the source of so much frustration among First Nations people.

The Lubicon Cree currently have no treaty ceding land rights. A treaty has been sought for decades, no official agreement has currently been reached, but $14 billion in oil and gas has been extracted from the lands in question. I'm sure a treaty will be reached, and the timing will coincide with resource extraction being totally ceased.

The Algonquins of Barriere Lake have no treaty ceding land rights, but an are seeking an agreement. The land in question generates $100 million in annual revenue including logging and hydroelectric revenue. Imagine a significant portion of the land were transferred back to the Algonquins, and a typical self-governance treaty were assumed surrendering all tax exemptions and entitlements. The result - a preservation of culture, an ending of 'white guilt' money transfers, and a continued revenue stream via the jobs created by an environmentally sensitive logging. I see no downside, except for the Government, who lose a measure of control, do you?

The requests made are not unreasonable; they're beneficial to First Nations people and 'ordinary' Canadian Citizens, but perhaps not Government.

The only method of compelling Government to consider First Nations requests more seriously is to exert public pressure, and that's the objective of Idle No More.

[noclue]

To counter:
yes but at least for the higher spendings per capita the provinces will get most of it back from income tax/property tax/corporate tax, HST. For natives as you seen from the audit report it's more of a sunk cost with little to show.

[dinosaur]

You can not compare Canadian FN to USA American Indians. It is a completely different system and iirc they were given a lot more to start with in the beginning. Even if you look at the reservation system down there, it is far superior than ours. Native Americans were give LARGE blocks of land that are able to be self-sustaining due to the diverse resources whereas, in Canada...most reservations are no larger than a few city blocks.

And, I think a lot of people mix up FN Reservations in BC with Traditional Territory. Several FN bands are protesting things like oil pipelines from going through their Traditional Territory, not Reservations. Not that is makes a difference to the gov't however....the gov't will do what they want at the end of the day anyways. Example: Golden Ears Bridge is literally on top of a FN reservation. Its pretty brutal.

Here is a map of the USA vs and example of Canada (Van Island)



15074

15075

[MindBomber]

To counter:
yes but at least for the higher spendings per capita the provinces will get most of it back from income tax/property tax/corporate tax, HST. For natives as you seen from the audit report it's more of a sunk cost with little to show.

First Nations and Aboriginal tax exemptions apply to a VERY limited criteria, it's not a sunk cost.

Employment Income: only if the income earning activity is situated on a reserve, ie. working in a band office.

Business Income: only if the actual income-earning activities of the business take place on a reserve.
Example 1
John is a self-employed Indian logger who lives on a reserve. He cuts timber on land off the reserve and sells it off the reserve. John's income from this business is considered to be taxable, because his income-earning activities and customers are off the reserve.

Example 2
Delia is an Indian who owns a retail store on a reserve. The store sells goods to both Indian and non-Indian customers. Since Delia's business activities take place on a reserve, her income from this business is tax-exempt.

GST/HST: in relations to goods, only if they are delivered to a reserve by a vendor or vendor's agent; in relation to services, no exemptions under any circumstances.

More information is available here:
Information for Indians (http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/brgnls/stts-eng.html)

The essential point:
The overwhelming majority of First Nations people pay taxes equivalent to any 'ordinary' Canadian.

[beebob]

before i started reading this thread today i thought the idle no more was some kind of canadawide eco-movement about not letting your engine idle unnecessarily.:facepalm:

i seriously need to start reading the papers...

[murd0c]

First Nations millionaires club - YouTube

:troll:

[dinosaur]

I fear this is completely unraveling...

Chief Theresa Spence changes her mind, won't attend meeting with PM | Canada | News | Toronto Sun (http://www.torontosun.com/2013/01/09/chief-theresa-spence-changes-her-mind-wont-attend-meeting-with-pm)

They are also saying that the reason the press conference has been delayed is because they can not resolve the list of demands as there is fighting among the chiefs due to different needs and wants.

I must admit...I am pretty disappointed.

[Ronin]

Now the Governor General says he's coming. I don't know why he would since the Governor General is a symbolic position and has no real authority on the matters at hand.

LOL I think Harper called her bluff. She's not prepared and they have no solid agenda to present to the government. Plus you know someone's going to bring up all the money that went to her town of 1500 so she gives some excuse not to meet with Harper like "Oh, the Governor General won't be there! I'm OUTRAGED that THE QUEEN doesn't care about First Nations!". But now the Governor General will be there...so she better attend.

Can't wait to see what happens. I'm guessing they just take some pictures. If they're lucky, the government will agree to meet them again but they got nothing right now, just like Occupy had nothing for months.

INB4 "I've been on 'hunger strike' for weeks. I'm too weak and sick to attend this meeting."

[murd0c]

Harper knows it's all BS and he's dealing with it in a perfect fashion because she will look like the idiot. Watch them deny Harper or make another BS excuse.

[MindBomber]

All predictable.

I'm not concerned with Spence unraveling, she begun to a couple weeks ago, but she's little more than a mascot for the movement, and the organizing leadership will sweep her aside once she's outlived her usefulness. It's not as if the meeting will not proceed, Spence just won't be in attendance.

I'm also not concerned over the Chiefs being in disagreement; it would be foolhardy to propose compiling a concise and pointed list of demands for such a broad sweeping set of issues.

One of the most important issues is educating Canadians, and dispelling the deep rooted misconceptions about First Nations people that are so prolific. As long as Idle No More generates conversation, it is effectively making progress on that front.

I've noted, interestingly; CBC released an article regarding conduct within the comments section of its website, because the measure of outright racism is so prolific its becoming impossible to moderate. Posts showing guarded racism and severe misconceptions of First Nations people are consistently the most popular via the thumbs up icons.

The Idle No More Facebook page is surprisingly encouraging.

I quite liked this photo.

http://s7.postimage.org/cqwq29f5n/303527_491787494197444_632819835_n.jpg

[belka]

Sun News : Idle No More has power to bring economy to its knees: First Nations leader (http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/politics/archives/2013/01/20130110-122239.html)

The Manitoba chiefs also threatened that unless the federal government meets their demands - which include the repeal of the government's budget bill - the protest movement Idle No More is ready to seriously disrupt the Canadian economy.

"We have the power," Derek Nepinak, the grand chief of the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, told reporters. "The Idle No More movement has the people and the numbers that can bring the Canadian economy to its knees. It can stop Prime Minister Harper's resource development plan and his billion-dollar plan to develop resources in ancestral territories. We have the warriors that are standing up now that are willing to go that far. So we're not here to make requests. We're here to demand attention and to demand an end to 140 years of colonial rule. That's what we're all about."

This entire fiasco is getting out of hand. This is nothing more than an attempt at blackmail. People are getting fed up with this BS, and the more BS like this they pull, the quicker the day of reckoning will come.

[noclue]

Sun News : Idle No More has power to bring economy to its knees: First Nations leader (http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/politics/archives/2013/01/20130110-122239.html)



This entire fiasco is getting out of hand. This is nothing more than an attempt at blackmail. People are getting fed up with this BS, and the more BS like this they pull, the quicker the day of reckoning will come.

Sounds awfully like terrorism to me.

Maybe the US Military will invade to liberate us? :fullofwin:

[MindBomber]

First Nations groups resorting to terrorism would, arguably, be unprecedented; and any argument would collapse into the old discussion of who fired the first shot during the Oka Crisis. I do not believe Idle No More or the larger First Nations community will resort to that level of conduct. Figures like Terry Nelson are fringe elements, not accepted or respected, and there opinions will achieve nothing, aside from distracting from the real conversation. In America there's routinely talk of overthrowing the Democrat Commies among the crazies, this is the same BS and warrants no more respect.

noclue,
I'm curious if you have any response to my last response to you on the prior page? re: sunk cost.

[Graeme S]

I'm very satisfied to say, there's been a significant change in the direction of First Nations threads.

I had only relatively recently joined RS when a thread concerning a counterfeit bill being passed arose, and the suspect was described as First Nations. Instantly, the thread exploded, "Never trust a Native," "Natives are all drunken, drug abusing, thieves," "I've never met a sober Indian," and these posts received avalanches of 'Thanks,' but never points. The outright racist posts seem to have since disappeared, only occasionally subtle racists tones remain, and even they seem to not arise from a genuine dislike or resentment towards First Nations people. The collective effort to dispel misconceptions, and above all, the willingness to discuss the issues and listen to the responses has actually had a tangible affect! Thank You, Tapioca, Dino, Grid, Graham, EB, CA, Lomac, and even you CiC (although Terry Nelson is a tool). As a person very proud to have a First Nations heritage, it makes me smile to see the change.

Thanks for the shout out, but...

sigh. The proper spelling for my name is to the left.

[Mr.Money]

derp,herp.

[Gridlock]

Thanks for the shout out, but...

sigh. The proper spelling for my name is to the left.

No love for Graim.

[MindBomber]

Thanks for the shout out, but...

sigh. The proper spelling for my name is to the left.

I swear, I looked at your username to clarify I was spelling it correctly.

How did I still manage to spell it incorrectly....

[Graeme S]

I swear, I looked at your username to clarify I was spelling it correctly.

How did I still managed to spell it incorrectly....
Probably the same way you did managed to make that mistake too :fullofwin:

Been happening all my life. Don't worry, it's :okay:

[murd0c]

a great video

An ode to my fellow Canadians - YouTube

[dinosaur]

wow! thats a great video!

[MindBomber]

Wow! That is a great video, thank you, murd0c.

[El Bastardo]

So they want to be heard. They want the rest of Canada to pay attention because changes are coming.

But what do they want? And what are they going to do?

The Manitoba chiefs also threatened that unless the federal government meets their demands - which include the repeal of the government's budget bill - the protest movement Idle No More is ready to seriously disrupt the Canadian economy.

"We have the power," Derek Nepinak, the grand chief of the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, told reporters. "The Idle No More movement has the people and the numbers that can bring the Canadian economy to its knees. It can stop Prime Minister Harper's resource development plan and his billion-dollar plan to develop resources in ancestral territories. We have the warriors that are standing up now that are willing to go that far. So we're not here to make requests. We're here to demand attention and to demand an end to 140 years of colonial rule. That's what we're all about."


If this thing that belka posted is true, this is no better than Bin Laden's hatred for America

The Arabic-language network Al-Jazeera released a full transcript Monday of the most recent videotape from Osama bin Laden in which the head of al Qaeda said his group's goal is to force America into bankruptcy.

Al-Jazeera aired portions of the videotape Friday but released the full transcript of the entire tape on its Web site Monday.

"We are continuing this policy in bleeding America to the point of bankruptcy. Allah willing, and nothing is too great for Allah," bin Laden said in the transcript.
http://articles.cnn.com/2004-11-01/world/binladen.tape_1_al-jazeera-qaeda-bin?_s=PM:WORLD

[belka]

So they want to be heard. They want the rest of Canada to pay attention because changes are coming.

But what do they want? And what are they going to do?




If this thing that belka posted is true, this is no better than Bin Laden's hatred for America


Bin Laden: Goal is to bankrupt U.S. - CNN (http://articles.cnn.com/2004-11-01/world/binladen.tape_1_al-jazeera-qaeda-bin?_s=PM:WORLD)

There is little hope that 1.2 million Indians will stop blackmailing 33 million Canadians. After all they learned from the very best: Quebec. It is the Canadian way. I hope Canadians read between the lines with all the bullshit threats about attacking the economy and warriors rising up and the guy from the link above blatantly saying violence is an option.

Hopefully if violence erupts our police forces won't take their cue from the Sarnia police.

[El Bastardo]

I found a different source (Non Sun News) the credits a different native leader (Chief Wallace Fox) with a quote similar to the one from Nepinak.

"We are going to take control. We are going to take the agenda,” said Chief Wallace Fox of Onion Lake Cree Nation.

Fox said he respects the decisions of others to go, but he won’t be pushed around anymore.

“If we have to shut down this economy then we will. Nobody is going to stop these Idle No More movements,” he said to huge shouts from the crowd.


Global Regina | Atleo faces meeting with Harper amidst deep divisions (http://www.globalregina.com/governor+general+to+meet+with+first+nations+chiefs +after+gathering+with+harper/6442785866/story.html)


If two different chiefs, who are literally the voices of their community, are saying the same thing I think we've just found out what the #IdleNoMore movement is going to be about. Getting everything they want or hurting an entire nation's economy.


http://www.justice.gc.ca/antiter/sheetfiche/terrordefp1-terreurdefp1-eng.asp

[noclue]

If the idle no more movement decide to use terrorism/blockades I think it'll turn out worse than the Oka crisis because Stephen Harper is much more cold then Brian Mulroney and probably send the military to crush the movement asap when things turn ugly.

Off topic but im curious to see what happens when UBC's lease on the land expires and the musqeaum don't want to renew. Do they move the 100 year old campus?

[Jason00S2000]

Stephen Harper is much more cold then Brian Mulroney and probably send the military to crush the movement asap when things turn ugly.

No way. They'll be paid off, big time.

[ynot-llat]

can somebody update me on what this whole thing is about?

1.) natives want a bigger cheque from the gov't
2.) natives got seriously f*ucked by the white man way back when 100+ years ago
3.) natives issuing threats to the economy
4) gov't caves into demands, and we pay out the ass in our taxes and life goes back to normal?

are the natives even armed? do they have any combat experience?

[Manic!]

From my understanding the movement was started by young people but the people meeting with the government are the same old people that have talked to them before.

[MindBomber]

I found a different source (Non Sun News) the credits a different native leader (Chief Wallace Fox) with a quote similar to the one from Nepinak.



Global Regina | Atleo faces meeting with Harper amidst deep divisions (http://www.globalregina.com/governor+general+to+meet+with+first+nations+chiefs +after+gathering+with+harper/6442785866/story.html)


If two different chiefs, who are literally the voices of their community, are saying the same thing I think we've just found out what the #IdleNoMore movement is going to be about. Getting everything they want or hurting an entire nation's economy.


The Anti-terrorism Act (http://www.justice.gc.ca/antiter/sheetfiche/terrordefp1-terreurdefp1-eng.asp)

Terry Nelson also advocates violence, and you've omitted him from your list. Nelson included, you'll have compiled a list of three out of six hundred Chiefs advocating the action in question. The list you will have compiled represents only a small portion of one percent of Chief's, but you have the confidence to define the opinions they present as the voices of an entire people. I'll return to the false analogy you presented earlier: assuming Fox, Nelson, and Nepinak are analogous to Bin Laden, 'Idle No More' is an extremist movement of a degree analogous to the level that Islam is an extremist religion.

'Idle No More' does not have a simply worded set of grievances, stating in precise words what it seeks to achieve. The issues 'Idle No More' seeks to protest are too broad sweeping, and they vary from region to region. It would be impossible for 'Idle No More' to construct the list you propose, so instead it broadcasts a general message. If you'd like specific issues, I'm sure if you contact the Band Council of any specific people they'd happily inform you further.

I'd suggest, you visit the 'Idle No More' main page or any of the regional sub-pages on Facebook. I've not seen any mention of violent protest, not even a modicum or inclining. I've only seen peaceful protests, and they're occurring worldwide. On every continent, indigenous and non-indigenous people are voicing support and staging demonstrations. The request made by the demonstrations is to be heard, not ignored, because it's time a serious effort were put forth to resolving the long-standing issues consecutive Governments have refused to give consideration. No requests for billion dollar funding transfers have been made, like people seem to be suggesting. A dispersion of funds equal to those of non-indigenous Canadian's is not unreasonable, and an attempt to reconcile land disputes is not either.

I've formerly enjoyed reading posts by you, EB; even with the staunch Republican position that you often assume. I've recently seen you take to suggesting; First Nations and Aboriginal people should protest funds being sent to Haiti; First Nations Chiefs are equivalent to Bin Laden, who killed thousands of innocent people; the voice of 0.5% of the population is reflective of the majority position. You're entitled to voice your opinion, but I must say, at least in my opinion, it's degraded very significantly in quality. I'm not criticizing, just offering my opinion.

[StylinRed]

can somebody update me on what this whole thing is about?

2.) natives got seriously f*ucked by the white man way back when 100+ years ago


no, they've been getting fucked ever since; sure there are the odd bands/tribes that have begun raking it in but not the majority and it's not just about $$$ although, used properly, that'll help get things on the right path

you could lay blame on them and to a degree you'd be right but when a society and culture are in a rut, that would make the grand canyon look small, that the government threw them in, it would be stupid to expect them to be able to climb out of it on their own

it's like a mentally ill, homeless guy in the DTES, throwing him some change or giving him a free meal isn't going to bring him out of his condition it just allows him to survive; you have to do so, so, much more and people aren't willing to and it's easier just to ridicule them

[MoBettah]

There's alot of talk about society and Canada's responsibility.

Simple question - Where does personal responsibility factor into this?

At the core, it's a nature vs nuture debate.

[dinosaur]

There's alot of talk about society and Canada's responsibility.

Simple question - Where does personal responsibility factor into this?

At the core, it's a nature vs nuture debate.

You need to expand on this.

FN "nature" was taken away and they were "nurtured" to assimilate.

And, this shit wasn't 100+ years ago. Remember, the last residential school was closed in 1996. Think about it.

[belka]

There's alot of talk about society and Canada's responsibility.

Simple question - Where does personal responsibility factor into this?

At the core, it's a nature vs nuture debate.

I hope the Harper government tells them "No more money to the reservations, get out, you're Canadian like everyone else. Intergrate into society like every other Canadian or immigrant" and that's that. They want "Equality" they need to give up their little pie in the sky view on things and the reservations. The Natives want to be the Pigs in the barnyard. I don't think that is able to happen.

[Tapioca]

I hope the Harper government tells them "No more money to the reservations, get out, you're Canadian like everyone else. Intergrate into society like every other Canadian or immigrant" and that's that. They want "Equality" they need to give up their little pie in the sky view on things and the reservations. The Natives want to be the Pigs in the barnyard. I don't think that is able to happen.

You can't compel someone to leave if they are not legally required to do so.

Did you not read my explanation on why the government cannot just get rid of the reserves, or in your view, simply cut funding? The government needs to basically change the Constitution to cut funding or ignore existing agreements that it signed with First Nations a hundred years ago. Not going to happen, I'm afraid.

We tried assimilation - it was called the residential school system. Not all of the system was bad, but it didn't exactly pan out for the country either.
Posted via RS Mobile

[El Bastardo]

You're entitled to voice your opinion, but I must say, at least in my opinion, it's degraded very significantly in quality. I'm not criticizing, just offering my opinion.


The problem I'm having is that I can't find a mission statement for this entire movement and I'm paying attention to anybody with a clear idea of they want out of this.

Louis Riel was rejecting the English government in the Manitoba area and working to set up his own provisional one. Again later in Saskatchewan as well.

Sitting Bull didn't want to be dependent on the government's reservation so he struck back in the desire for autonomy.

And perhaps a less extreme example: Harriet Nahanee's activism to see Native people become less integrated and assimilated to Canadian culture.


If I hear some person on Twitter chirping about X issue or Y problem I tend to skim or ignore it. Same goes for forum posts. Same goes for comments on a news site. But when I hear two native leaders say the exact same thing I pay attention. Similar to Malcolm X's frustration with the Jim Crow laws of the era, some of the things I hear are inflammatory and alarming and of course these are the statements that should be paid attention to. If true, these statements mean to put us all in subservience to the 4.3% until their demands are met.



Don't get me wrong. I get where you're coming from. It seems as if I'm just taking a 'Daily Show' approach to this issue and reading headlines, then taking the most inflammatory of them and basing my understanding of the issues on that. But as someone without a dog in this fight I have to look at what the leaders are saying and not the participants because until now the participants have been making broad, nonspecific demands for change that they themselves could have enacted prior to this movement.

Despite what the popular opinion would have us believe, the Native people didn't have the same kinds of Jim Crow laws holding them back as did the folks in the US. But now the Idle No Movement is being steered by people who seem to be so intent on making a difference right now that its literally been their first opportunity to this point to do so.

I started this thread because I didn't understand this movement, but I'm beginning to understand it a little better now.

[Gridlock]

I haven't read as much on the canadian fn, except more on the east coast where I grew up. We didn't have as many first nations people there, as it was more established to move them/kill them as was seen necessary.

I don't know if that in itself paints a portrait for anyone on where some of the bitterness comes from or not.

If that doesn't, maybe asking where the first nations people live in Newfoundland would help. The indigenous people are called "Beothuks"...go google it.

I'll wait.

Back? Yeah...mass slaughter.

In the US, the Indians were continually pushed further and further west, and then more white people came along and pushed them further out of the way.

The same thing happened in Canada, and even today.

Oh...here's a reservation. It's the shitty land that no one wants. Can't grow shit on it, but its yours.

Until the 20th/21st century and....oil bitches! Need a fucking bridge bitches! Coal! Diamonds!

Fuck! I thought we gave them the shitty land. There is some innate value left on it, so now we need to pay them off and then take it.

And after: mass slaughter, continually being pushed aside for development, being used as shock troops in war, displacement, assimilation campaigns, and a bit more mass slaughter...they get called fat lazy drunks by assholes on revscene.

Buck up! They get told. You've continually had a white fist up your ass, but we're over it. You should be too. We're ready to be friends.

Now, let's get you educated and productive because we want you off the government teat...when its white people on the dole, that is called "progressive taxation"...but an indian? Oh...that's being lazy.

Why are people pissed off now? Because the latest round is eliminating CONVERSATION(ie, environmetal study/protected land status/first nations consultations) on land and a lot of other things that, like through history, primarily first nations are being told, "trust us" and as noted above...they have NO FUCKING REASON TO.

[MindBomber]

The AFN National Chief, Sean Atleo, accompanied by the regional Chiefs for British Columbia and Saskatchewan held a 50 minute press conference discussing goals yesterday. Atleo spends approximately 15 minutes outlining goals, and the rest is a question and answer period which is well worth watching.

AFN lays out goals - Aboriginal - CBC Player (http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/Politics/ID/2324452378/)

Based on these official statements by the AFN, I read the primary objectives as these:

1. Rescind the changes to environmental provisions brought forward by the two omnibus bills.

2. Re-negotiate resource revenue sharing agreements.

3. Develop a strategy to replace the Indian Act.

4. Equalization of education quality for indigenous children.

5. Introduce changes to the education system across Canada, like those seen in Manitoba (ie. educating non-indigenous children better on the indigenous issues).

6. Action on missing women.

I've also noted; on Facebook pages anyone who suggests violence or economic disruption is very quickly denounced, and on the j11action.com page there is one blockade planned (Cache Creek) but many many round dances.

Despite what the popular opinion would have us believe, the Native people didn't have the same kinds of Jim Crow laws holding them back as did the folks in the US. But now the Idle No Movement is being steered by people who seem to be so intent on making a difference right now that its literally been their first opportunity to this point to do so.

I don't think there's a belief that this is a first opportunity or a beginning of one, more so, a level of the patience that has persisted for a very long time is running out. The AFN meeting with the Crown last year was supposed to mark an increase in progress, but that opposite has occurred, and what you see is the result of that. Like I've said before, the status quo is only good for two groups: resource companies, and government officials who personally benefit from relationships with them.

[Everymans]

I think I'm getting a better grasp on this movement. One thing really bothers me though, the native chiefs aren't taking any blame in the conditions of their reserves. I've walked around a few reserves in my day and witnessed how disgusting they can be. Maybe if some of them took the time of day to grab a garbage bag and clean up their spots, or did anything. Honestly, what do natives do with all that free time? I'd be improving my poverty third world community. But I think they don't fully know how to do this, or they can't get the help they need because no one is listening. The government needs to educate the chiefs on how to properly spend their money and manage their communities, and the chiefs need to follow them and show that they can make the change. I'd love to see a reservation building their own houses instead of contracting others to build it for them. But this is all an education problem. Every second native on the radio talks like a 5th grader, and that's probably because they only got a 5th grade education on the reserve. I'm in support of some of their demands, but I'd really like to see them take some blame for their own living conditions. How can you spend tax payers money and not get a receipt for it?

[Hondaracer]

dont really care about any of this after reading quite a bit, but one thing i'll add regarding the post above mine here regarding the people and chiefs of the reserves themselves taking ownership of the conditions

A good family friend of mine was a fairly big contractor who got a contract to build houses and do renovations on reserves throughout BC. This individual had a fairly large crew and fully capable of constructing houses from the ground up as well as full tear down/rebuild reno's.

He ended up backing out of the contract after a year and a half due to absolute frustration and downright disgust after he saw what was happening to the houses he was building. He went into the whole project with a mind of doing turn over's and orientations to the future owner much like any custom home builder would, he would take the family through their brand new home and go through a whole list of things with them from power panels, appliance hook ups, any concerns with finishing like dry wall bumps, paint scratches, etc. 100% professional in his turn overs and courtesies

He then would be called back in to deal with deficiances and issues with said homeowners property, he said nearly 100% of the properties he returned to within 1-3 months were literately "torn apart" holes kicked in walls, carpet ripped up or ruined, appliances running their exhaust fans/piping out of windows or into attics instead of intended drops because of space issues, IE. storage/misc use of the laundry room instead of intended purposes

he said most of these properties that were under a year old were in worse condition than some 50 year old properties he had reno'd in the past

dont have much compassion on those grounds.

[belka]

I think I'm getting a better grasp on this movement. One thing really bothers me though, the native chiefs aren't taking any blame in the conditions of their reserves. I've walked around a few reserves in my day and witnessed how disgusting they can be. Maybe if some of them took the time of day to grab a garbage bag and clean up their spots, or did anything. Honestly, what do natives do with all that free time?

Just imagine if the Germans were as lazy as the FN in Canada, Germany would never have been rebuilt after WWII. Natives don't care about themselves, their community or Canada. They are 'different' like they say they are....

USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST

[Graeme S]

To those who are critical of specific aspects of the movement or of problems you see within the system, you are more than welcome to voice your concerns.

Belka has been banned for six months. Next time I will not be so generous.

[El Bastardo]

dont have much compassion on those grounds.

I grew up in a community on the island where white folks did the same thing. That kind of disrespect for one's home isn't limited to a specific ethnicity.

[dinosaur]

I find it so predictable that after a few pages of worthy intelligent discussion these thread regarding Canada's FN always turn into racist and accusatory posts.

"They should" "Our country" "Our police" "buck up" "times have changed" "get over it" "they deserve it" "their fault" and even racial slurs get so frustrating to read over and over and OVER again.

One would think that a site so full of diverse people from different ethnic, racial, and socio-economic backgrounds would be slightly more tolerant and understand that for every stereotypical description of an ethnicity or race there are tens of thousands that are quite the opposite.

[MindBomber]

I think I'm getting a better grasp on this movement. One thing really bothers me though, the native chiefs aren't taking any blame in the conditions of their reserves. I've walked around a few reserves in my day and witnessed how disgusting they can be. Maybe if some of them took the time of day to grab a garbage bag and clean up their spots, or did anything. Honestly, what do natives do with all that free time? I'd be improving my poverty third world community. But I think they don't fully know how to do this, or they can't get the help they need because no one is listening. The government needs to educate the chiefs on how to properly spend their money and manage their communities, and the chiefs need to follow them and show that they can make the change. I'd love to see a reservation building their own houses instead of contracting others to build it for them. But this is all an education problem. Every second native on the radio talks like a 5th grader, and that's probably because they only got a 5th grade education on the reserve. I'm in support of some of their demands, but I'd really like to see them take some blame for their own living conditions. How can you spend tax payers money and not get a receipt for it?

I’d like to try and address each point you’ve made thoroughly.

First Nations Chiefs taking responsibility for the conditions of reserves –

I attribute the poor condition of some reserves to a multi-generational pattern, and one generally reflective of the troubles befalling First Nations people. An acceptable standard of property condition will be engrained in an individual in childhood, and be reflected in adulthood. The age of current reservation leadership places them as children through the sixties, seventies and eighties. I believe, First Nations people will come to recognize the aforementioned decades as the most desperate to ever befall them. I then suggest, the current leaders and elders on reservations consider the standards you cite as acceptable because of the conditions they were raised amongst and are accustomed to. Naturally, drug and alcohol abuse arising from the same set of circumstances also contributes to conditions. I’ve noted continual improvement of conditions as the current generation comes into adulthood; I believe the improvement will only continue.

Management of funding –

The First Nations community often discusses quality of leadership within small rural reservations. It is a significant issue in some communities, and there’s no easy answer. A mixture of strategies have been attempted to improve the quality of leadership, and there’s been mixed degrees of success overall. As you suggest, a secondary level of government management is often put in place. The low quality of the government officials only compounds the problem though. I see progress on the horizon, and improvement to be made with the rise of the better educated current and next generation. There’s no easy answer to this issue though.

Reservations independently managing construction –

On a very large reservation, it may be practical for First Nations people to look to within communities for skilled trades. On a medium or small reservation, I don’t see this as a reasonable option. A community with only a few hundred people cannot employ a trained equipment operator, carpenter, electrician, plumber, insulator, drywaller, and so on to build structures and manage infrastructure.

In addition, construction on a reservation can be very challenging. The Indian Act has dated wording that deters personal or private lending investment from taking place on properties located on reservations, creating a dependence on government provided funding and lending. Important to note, it’s not funding beyond that available to any non-indigenous Canadian (I can quote government websites stating as such). I’ve already digressed a bit here, so I won’t continue further. It’s a cornerstone issue with the Indian Act.

First Nations leaders often speak quite poorly –

I wouldn’t necessarily agree. I would re-phrase your statement to say, First Nations people often do not sound as well spoken as non-indigenous colleages. I would attribute this to two reasons:

1) It’s not uncommon for First Nations leaders to have risen through the ranks despite having a low level of education, and may lack the refined form of a person who has had extensive post-secondary schooling.
2) First Nations people often possess a specific set of linguistic characteristics, and although they amount to nothing more than a difference they can impact perception of the speaker. In my prior post I included a link to a CBC video, the regional Chief of Saskatchewan has the ‘drawl’ I’m referring too.

It’s important to remember, a person should be judged on the messages they deliver in speech; well refined diction and linguistics are only icing.

I’ve noted Graeme gave you points, and although your post leaves a bit to be desired at some points its not too bad. I would happily listen to any rebuttals you have to my response.

dont really care about any of this after reading quite a bit, but one thing i'll add regarding the post above mine here regarding the people and chiefs of the reserves themselves taking ownership of the conditions

A good family friend of mine was a fairly big contractor who got a contract to build houses and do renovations on reserves throughout BC. This individual had a fairly large crew and fully capable of constructing houses from the ground up as well as full tear down/rebuild reno's.

He ended up backing out of the contract after a year and a half due to absolute frustration and downright disgust after he saw what was happening to the houses he was building. He went into the whole project with a mind of doing turn over's and orientations to the future owner much like any custom home builder would, he would take the family through their brand new home and go through a whole list of things with them from power panels, appliance hook ups, any concerns with finishing like dry wall bumps, paint scratches, etc. 100% professional in his turn overs and courtesies

He then would be called back in to deal with deficiances and issues with said homeowners property, he said nearly 100% of the properties he returned to within 1-3 months were literately "torn apart" holes kicked in walls, carpet ripped up or ruined, appliances running their exhaust fans/piping out of windows or into attics instead of intended drops because of space issues, IE. storage/misc use of the laundry room instead of intended purposes

he said most of these properties that were under a year old were in worse condition than some 50 year old properties he had reno'd in the past

dont have much compassion on those grounds.

As you shouldn't, I wouldn't have compassion either.

I've worked on quite a few reserves; a few within the Lower Mainland, a few in the Okanagan, and a couple in other areas of British Columbia; I've never had issues with properties being damaged. I'm only a sub-contractor though, and have only returned post-construction to visit friends and family on a couple of the aforementioned reserves.

[Ronin]

How does Canada's treatment of FN differ from when Chinese people built railroads or the Japanese being shipped to the interior or any of the other incidents in our history?

[dinosaur]

How does Canada's treatment of FN differ from when Chinese people built railroads or the Japanese being shipped to the interior or any of the other incidents in our history?

I find it hard to compare any one groups suffering to another. Is one better or worse than the other? No.

I have worked heavily in the heritage sector dealing with Japanese internment camps, Chinese labour, and FN issues. Yes, the underlying current is racial discrimination and abuse, but expectations, length of discrimination, results, and treatment were different. Better or worse? Any aspect can be argued.

Japanese being raped of their possessions, livelihood, family members, etc and forced into internment camp. Terrible.

Chinese people being stuffed in labour camps, living in poor and dangerous conditions, etc. Terrible.

FN people being torn from family, put in residential schools, kicked off their land, force assimilation, etc. Terrible.

There is no comparison, because when we start to say, "my people were treated worse than yours", we minimize the atrocities. Arguments can be made as to who got the better deal and who was treated worse....but there is no point.

[MindBomber]

Kind of cool, a map showing the locations of IdleNoMore# tweets.

Quite a bit of international attention is being garnered.

#IdleNoMore Tweet Map (http://idlenomore.makook.ca/)

[CharlesInCharge]

This guy being interviewed lays out whats going on really well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxQghbSU-7M


If these protests continue, Im betting the CBC and infiltrators will make these blockades out to be riot like and cut social network and phone text communication to slow this movement.

[Hondaracer]

I find it so predictable that after a few pages of worthy intelligent discussion these thread regarding Canada's FN always turn into racist and accusatory posts.

"They should" "Our country" "Our police" "buck up" "times have changed" "get over it" "they deserve it" "their fault" and even racial slurs get so frustrating to read over and over and OVER again.

One would think that a site so full of diverse people from different ethnic, racial, and socio-economic backgrounds would be slightly more tolerant and understand that for every stereotypical description of an ethnicity or race there are tens of thousands that are quite the opposite.

im not going to try and not dwell into anything but a somewhat neutral stance but...

it might be hard for families of Chinese, European, etc, etc, imigrants who came to this country with absolutely nothing, and in many cases less than nothing and built a life within Canada for themselves through nothing else but hard work and determination to look upon Aboriginals and give them sympathy without knowing history outside of stories in the news or word of mouth

i'm kind of in the same boat with that opinion, my dad's side of the family were essentially first generation Canadians and moved here from Finland in the 50's, they came to Canada not only with no money, but actually owing Canadian immigration $150 upon arrival. in 2006 they downsized to a townhouse selling their acerage property with a house my grandfather had built himself for 850k with no mortgage.

[noclue]

Japanese being raped of their possessions, livelihood, family members, etc and forced into internment camp. Terrible.

Chinese people being stuffed in labour camps, living in poor and dangerous conditions, etc. Terrible.

FN people being torn from family, put in residential schools, kicked off their land, force assimilation, etc. Terrible.



Then how come Japanese and the Chinese manage to rise from their atrocities and become productive, successful members of society instead of bitching about the past to the 21st century? My theory is that due to the Indian act, it gave the FN population an incentive to not develop themselves while the Japanese/Chinese had no choice but to work hard or die.

If you guys want to see how anti-native sentiments are formed, go to any major town in BC outside the lower mainland on the last Wednesday of every month. Why? its welfare day. Alcohol/drugs/moneymarts are booming, there are fights in broad daylight, gets worse at night. And the majority of them are natives. This cycle repeats every month. I've seen natives trash a Chinese restaurant and telling the owners to go back to China as its their land now.

Or the cases of chiefs driving Escalades and getting 300k salaries.

As a taxpayer,are you happy seeing this is where your taxes go to?

Granted of course, not all natives are like this and there are always degenerates in every race.

[dinosaur]

your user name suites you.

[Everymans]

I’d like to try and address each point you’ve made thoroughly.

First Nations Chiefs taking responsibility for the conditions of reserves –

I attribute the poor condition of some reserves to a multi-generational pattern, and one generally reflective of the troubles befalling First Nations people. An acceptable standard of property condition will be engrained in an individual in childhood, and be reflected in adulthood. The age of current reservation leadership places them as children through the sixties, seventies and eighties. I believe, First Nations people will come to recognize the aforementioned decades as the most desperate to ever befall them. I then suggest, the current leaders and elders on reservations consider the standards you cite as acceptable because of the conditions they were raised amongst and are accustomed to. Naturally, drug and alcohol abuse arising from the same set of circumstances also contributes to conditions. I’ve noted continual improvement of conditions as the current generation comes into adulthood; I believe the improvement will only continue.

Reservations independently managing construction –

On a very large reservation, it may be practical for First Nations people to look to within communities for skilled trades. On a medium or small reservation, I don’t see this as a reasonable option. A community with only a few hundred people cannot employ a trained equipment operator, carpenter, electrician, plumber, insulator, drywaller, and so on to build structures and manage infrastructure.

In addition, construction on a reservation can be very challenging. The Indian Act has dated wording that deters personal or private lending investment from taking place on properties located on reservations, creating a dependence on government provided funding and lending. Important to note, it’s not funding beyond that available to any non-indigenous Canadian (I can quote government websites stating as such). I’ve already digressed a bit here, so I won’t continue further. It’s a cornerstone issue with the Indian Act.

Thanks for the response, didn't expect to get an infraction but I suppose my message was edgy. what are some examples of the living conditions? I lived near a reserve in saskatchewen and driving through it was like driving through a third world country. People sitting beside the road on sofas getting drunk watching traffic all day, new cars in pieces all over the yard. Garbage everywhere. How can this change? what will make it change? is it simply a slowly evolving native change or "Adaptation" to our European descendants style of living or is this to be blamed on the government?

Is it possible for natives living on reserves to go to school and learn these things then come back to their community is that currently happening? As far as I know they get a certain amount of free post secondary schooling don't they? Is this indian act going to be changed, is that part of the movement? Is there a list of demands that this movement wants?

[Gridlock]

Let's also face facts...I too, have heard the stories, and seen it myself, the way reservations end up going. New houses destroyed and so on.

First, I'm going to point out that this is not solely a first nations problem. Rent an apartment to some older white people, and you'd think that Mr.Clean should be called "Mr. Gold Fucking Bars". It's not truly their house, so they don't care. You get the same "this one is broken, give me more" attitude too.

But that's not to negate the conversation. But, what I'm suggesting in each of my posts, is that FN are judged by the very best of your own culture, and you ignore the rest.

Does it happen to reservations more? Probably.

And I don't think that anyone here is ever suggesting that yes, there are a lot of FN that I think could use a very large dose of reality. I can't decide to fix the problem one day for you, come in and make it all better. They are, as a people, going to have to meet half way.

I don't know what that system is. Do you? Do you just tell them, "buck up?" I don't know. Here is what I can tell you as a normal, average white guy Canadian citizen:

I DO NOT KNOW HOW TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

You know one thing I can do, and everyone else can do? Listen. That's number one. And goddamn, that's good advice for a LOT of people in Canada, in this world and on this forum, is occasionally SHUT THE FUCK UP.

Maybe we need to have a dialogue. Maybe its just fucking time to sit down and say, "how do we fix this?" Because we have problems guys. We have kids drinking gas up north, and we have that reservation a few months ago where they were living in shit shacks. I'm not cool with that.

Maybe one step is dropping a little bit of the racism from the way you speak about this group of people. Maybe that's something that you can do today. What I find truly ironic, is that some of the people in this thread, not the ones being overtly racist, but the ones that take the "you people" and "them" attitude, some of these people, aren't white. So your people, as has been pointed out, also suffered some "institutional" racism in this very country, but apparently that gets forgotten about, because you are happy to hand it out to others. This is of course not to say that its ok for whites to do it at all, but we've primarily always been the source. If one group of people that are discriminated against can't get some support from another that has been discriminated against, well, that just seems a little more wrong.

[MindBomber]

Thanks for the response, didn't expect to get an infraction but I suppose my message was edgy. what are some examples of the living conditions? I lived near a reserve in saskatchewen and driving through it was like driving through a third world country. People sitting beside the road on sofas getting drunk watching traffic all day, new cars in pieces all over the yard. Garbage everywhere. How can this change? what will make it change? is it simply a slowly evolving native change or "Adaptation" to our European descendants style of living or is this to be blamed on the government?
Is it possible for natives living on reserves to go to school and learn these things then come back to their community is that currently happening? As far as I know they get a certain amount of free post secondary schooling don't they? Is this indian act going to be changed, is that part of the movement? Is there a list of demands that this movement wants?

Housing –

I’ve spent time on a number of reserves, and conditions vary significantly like all neighborhoods. I’ve been on very well kept reserves where conditions are comparable to any middle-class neighborhood, Tsawwassen would be an example. I’ve also been on reserves where conditions are generally poor; the outside spaces of homes are generally not as well kept, and there’s miscellaneous debris cluttering car ports and yards; I would consider the conditions to comparable to the less affluent neighborhoods of Surrey. The average reserve I’ve spent time on is a balance of the two aforementioned states, and the conditions are comparable to many slightly below average neighborhoods. To ensure clarity: I consider conditions the general non-monetary upkeep of the community, factors like the amount of litter, vandalism, and clutter in yards, but not the state of home maintenance since that is a separate complex issue.

I’m hesitant to assign blame; I don’t feel dismissing individual responsibility is appropriate, but I also don’t believe in placing fault on the wrong parties. The government is entitled to a significant proportion of fault, residential schools caused issues that penetrate deep into the community and perpetuate through multiple generations. The experience of residential schools were a significant catalyst in establishing drug and alcohol addiction, themselves fostering crime, and causing long standing parenting issues by breaking up families. I dislike citing residential schools, but the impact they’ve had cannot be understated. I will also give fault to First Nations and Aboriginal people themselves, but to a lesser extent. I recognize First Nations and Aboriginal people have an internal responsibility to recover from hardships, but success in that will in inevitably vary and take time.

The removal of the Indian Act is an initial step. A person who takes pride in a place will give it greater care, but when you’re trapped by bureaucracy into living in a run-down, dated home it’s difficult to do that. The next step would be to target the general concerns on education, resource revenue sharing and such, because the state of a community reflects the state of a people.

Schooling -

You'll need to clarify, learn which things?

First Nations and Aboriginal people are increasingly leaving reservation communities temporarily and returning with greater life experience, education, and improving the state of their people.

Indian Affairs grants a stippen to reservations to improve access for 'status indians' to post-secondary. It's up to the reservation to decide who receives funding and to what degree, because the stippen is not sufficient to educate every potential post-secondary student. If you live in a community like Attawapiskat where the primary and secondary education levels are utter rubbish, because schools on reservations are given less financial support than an equivalent non-IA funded school, the stippen doesn't mean much because you would never be admitted to any institution much less be prepared for it.

Objectives of the movement -

Removing the Indian Act is a very important objective of 'Idle No More,' and it's not a new idea. First Nations and Aboriginal people have been attempting to crawl out from under the Indian Act for decades, but the Government has not shown initiative to make progress on replacing it. Some Bands have resorted to borrowing millions privately to remove themselves from the Indian Act.

The National Chief, and Regional Chiefs of British Columbia and Saskatchewan discuss objectives in the first 15 minutes of this video.

http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/Politics/ID/2324452378/

Based on these official statements by the AFN, I read the primary objectives as these:

1. Rescind the changes to environmental provisions brought forward by the two omnibus bills.

2. Re-negotiate resource revenue sharing agreements.

3. Develop a strategy to replace the Indian Act.

4. Equalization of education quality for indigenous children.

5. Introduce changes to the education system across Canada, like those seen in Manitoba (ie. educating non-indigenous children better on the indigenous issues).

6. Action on missing women.

As before, I'm happy to listen to any thoughts, rebuttals, questions you may have to my response.

Then how come Japanese and the Chinese manage to rise from their atrocities and become productive, successful members of society instead of bitching about the past to the 21st century? My theory is that due to the Indian act, it gave the FN population an incentive to not develop themselves while the Japanese/Chinese had no choice but to work hard or die.

If you guys want to see how anti-native sentiments are formed, go to any major town in BC outside the lower mainland on the last Wednesday of every month. Why? its welfare day. Alcohol/drugs/moneymarts are booming, there are fights in broad daylight, gets worse at night. And the majority of them are natives. This cycle repeats every month. I've seen natives trash a Chinese restaurant and telling the owners to go back to China as its their land now.

Or the cases of chiefs driving Escalades and getting 300k salaries.

As a taxpayer,are you happy seeing this is where your taxes go to?

Granted of course, not all natives are like this and there are always degenerates in every race.

The comparisons being made between Japanese internment, Chinese railroad labour, and First Nations and Aboriginal land displacements and residential schools are not reasonable or well-informed. Dinosaur is correct to not open a discussion comparing them, and I will not either.

First Nations and Aboriginal people are not entitled to any benefits through the Indian Act not granted to a non-indigenous Canadian.

Chiefs salaries are comparable to those in non-reserve communities. Chief Spence has an Escalade, because her partner works in mining and they collectively have a high income.

Everyman's post was edgy, but not enough to deserve points IMO.

While you, you deserved to be banned. Your points have been repeatedly and unequivocally disproven, and you cling to them. There's only one explanation for that, and we all know what it is..

[Hondaracer]

Let's also face facts...I too, have heard the stories, and seen it myself, the way reservations end up going. New houses destroyed and so on.

First, I'm going to point out that this is not solely a first nations problem. Rent an apartment to some older white people, and you'd think that Mr.Clean should be called "Mr. Gold Fucking Bars". It's not truly their house, so they don't care. You get the same "this one is broken, give me more" attitude too.

But that's not to negate the conversation. But, what I'm suggesting in each of my posts, is that FN are judged by the very best of your own culture, and you ignore the rest.

Does it happen to reservations more? Probably.

And I don't think that anyone here is ever suggesting that yes, there are a lot of FN that I think could use a very large dose of reality. I can't decide to fix the problem one day for you, come in and make it all better. They are, as a people, going to have to meet half way.

I don't know what that system is. Do you? Do you just tell them, "buck up?" I don't know. Here is what I can tell you as a normal, average white guy Canadian citizen:

I DO NOT KNOW HOW TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

You know one thing I can do, and everyone else can do? Listen. That's number one. And goddamn, that's good advice for a LOT of people in Canada, in this world and on this forum, is occasionally SHUT THE FUCK UP.

Maybe we need to have a dialogue. Maybe its just fucking time to sit down and say, "how do we fix this?" Because we have problems guys. We have kids drinking gas up north, and we have that reservation a few months ago where they were living in shit shacks. I'm not cool with that.

Maybe one step is dropping a little bit of the racism from the way you speak about this group of people. Maybe that's something that you can do today. What I find truly ironic, is that some of the people in this thread, not the ones being overtly racist, but the ones that take the "you people" and "them" attitude, some of these people, aren't white. So your people, as has been pointed out, also suffered some "institutional" racism in this very country, but apparently that gets forgotten about, because you are happy to hand it out to others. This is of course not to say that its ok for whites to do it at all, but we've primarily always been the source. If one group of people that are discriminated against can't get some support from another that has been discriminated against, well, that just seems a little more wrong.

your shoving the "how to feel" about things down peoples throats are just as bad as the people with racist tones and ignorance.

Guess what, when people have an opinion you dont agree with or find irrelevant/uninformed thats how many Canadians view these problems, stereotypes are typically there for a reason because the individuals being stereotyped perpetuate it onto themselves

i commend MindBomber for being so informed and willing to have a informative dialogue but most of the posters in this thread are just spinning their wheels worse than the first nations are right now, done with this thread.

[Gridlock]

not worth it.

[Graeme S]

Everyman's post was edgy, but not enough to deserve points IMO.

While you, you deserved to be banned. Your points have been repeatedly and unequivocally disproven, and you cling to them. There's only one explanation for that, and we all know what it is..

Advice noted.

[MindBomber]

In my eyes, I see three varieties of posts present here.

1. Supportive of First Nations and Aboriginal people (not racist).

These posts are well-informed, and stereotypes hold no water.

2. Critical of First Nations and Aboriginal people (overtly racist).

These posts can be subdivided into two categories:

(a) Deductively analyzing information as it is presented, but not bound by stereotypes (racist tone, but not prejudice).

(b) Conveying a racist agenda, but being subtle to maintain credibility (racist).

3. Agenda against First Nations and Aboriginal people (racist).

I am very supportive of 1 and 2(a), but 2(b) and 3 have no place in society, much less this discussion.

not worth it.

Thank you, Gridlock.

Sincerely, I'm happy to see a person who is not First Nations or Aboriginal with such sincere concern.

Advice noted.

Much appreciated, Graeme.

[Jason00S2000]

Regardless of whatever happens, as long as natives know they can point to the past and get money for their future, we're going to see this movement continue.

[Graeme S]

Much appreciated, Graeme.

As an individual, it's extremely difficult for me to judge when someone is being subtly or outright racist; I took everymans' "they all have a grade 5 education" as a racist remark, and noclue's comment as ignorant idiocy.

If I could make you a thread-mod, I would because you've got a very level head and we need someone who's got a good feel of the issue to keep track. As the thread goes on, please feel free to PM me if you think I have missed something or have done something unduly harsh.

We're all human, and this topic especially is one of the more difficult ones to police.

[Redlines_Daily]

+1 for Mindbomber being a content moderator

[dinosaur]

^agreed

[CharlesInCharge]

Canada is one of the largest energy land masses, more then Saudi Arabia... and its petro dollars are poured into a black hole called the national debt.
If the first nations can reclaim their treaty territory, its resource money can make Canadian cities look like Belgium and even have a higher standard of living for all its population... but nooo, there are too many people washed up into the propaganda.

I wonder how our American counter parts would feel about blockades for first nations sovereignty... would the citizens resist it or with the new smell of revolution around the globe, would they join them and rebel against the 1%ers, like the Queen.

[Soundy]

Well it was bound to happen: Ernie Crey, an advisor to the Sto:lo Tribal council in B.C., claims there are certain "undemocratic, demagogic" elements who are planning to "usurp" Idle No More in an attempt to push out AFN chief Shawn Atleo... mainly comprised of those who were his opponents in the last election.

[El Bastardo]

Well it was bound to happen: Ernie Crey, an advisor to the Sto:lo Tribal council in B.C., claims there are certain "undemocratic, demagogic" elements who are planning to "usurp" Idle No More in an attempt to push out AFN chief Shawn Atleo... mainly comprised of those who were his opponents in the last election.



Source? I can't find any articles.

[Soundy]

Source? I can't find any articles.

CKNW AM 980: News. Talk. Sports. (http://www.cknw.com/news/audiovault/index.aspx) - select Jan. 13, 12:00pm, then skip ahead to around 21 minutes.

[MindBomber]

As an individual, it's extremely difficult for me to judge when someone is being subtly or outright racist; I took everymans' "they all have a grade 5 education" as a racist remark, and noclue's comment as ignorant idiocy.

If I could make you a thread-mod, I would because you've got a very level head and we need someone who's got a good feel of the issue to keep track. As the thread goes on, please feel free to PM me if you think I have missed something or have done something unduly harsh.

We're all human, and this topic especially is one of the more difficult ones to police.

Thanks, Graeme; I'll keep in touch via PM if I have any concerns.

+1 for Mindbomber being a content moderator

^agreed

Thank you, Redlines and Dino.

Well it was bound to happen: Ernie Crey, an advisor to the Sto:lo Tribal council in B.C., claims there are certain "undemocratic, demagogic" elements who are planning to "usurp" Idle No More in an attempt to push out AFN chief Shawn Atleo... mainly comprised of those who were his opponents in the last election.

Atleo is often a subject of criticism, along with the entire AFN, because of the degree to which he and they are involved with Government negotiations and the lack of progress on issues. Whether the criticism amounts to much, well I'd say that's pretty doubtful.

Saw this today, enjoyed it.

http://s1.postimage.org/ezkg7xuov/46447_10200320761449716_1834138327_n.jpg

[Jason00S2000]

So far, Idle No More has taught me that Canada is simply a bunch of thieving settlers, and that just by existing as a white person, that I should feel guilty and hate myself for their suffering.

[dinosaur]

Its not about feeling guilty and hating yourself.

It is about acknowledging what happened, understanding what happen, understanding the ongoing and current issues and struggles, and working together on a plan for the future without prejudice.

[Jason00S2000]

First Nations millionaires club - YouTube


Need to get rid of the poverty pimps. ( The Chiefs )

[Jason00S2000]

plan for the future without prejudice.


Impossible. The white man will forever be the scapegoat as long as there is even 1 poor indian.

If you want to see modern racism in action, look no further than Idle No More.

[MindBomber]

So far, Idle No More has taught me that Canada is simply a bunch of thieving settlers, and that just by existing as a white person, that I should feel guilty and hate myself for their suffering.

Jason;

I've authored numerous posts here, but not once have I suggested, "Canada is simply a bunch of thieving settlers, and that just by existing as a white person, that I should feel guilty and hate myself for their suffering." I've also followed 'Idle No More' quite closely, reading the majority of posts on its main and local Facebook pages, and not once has any even vague approximation of what you cite been suggested.

'Idle No More' is about establishing equality by replacing the Indian Act, honoring treaty rights, and the renegotiation of treaty rights under the principles of unconscionability; the intention is to achieve these goals through peaceful protest and education.

I'd like to dispel the misconceptions you've developed, and as such, I'd welcome any reasonable contributions you have to offer, but, you know your post is not constructed from facts and that it is not beneficial to any reasonable agenda.

Stop being a fucking idiot.

[El Bastardo]

MB: As the Revscene First Nation advocate, can you tell us what % of your background is First Nations?

[Soundy]

Its not about feeling guilty and hating yourself.

It is about acknowledging what happened, understanding what happen, understanding the ongoing and current issues and struggles, and working together on a plan for the future without prejudice.

Wait, I thought it was about Chief Spence trying to get Harper to meet with her.

Or was it supposed to be protesting against Bill C-45?

I'm sure if I looked through two dozen different media sources, I'd find three dozen different opinions on what it's all supposed to be about.

Occupy 2.0, anyone?

[dinosaur]

Furthermore, I have worked on countless reservations with countless FN people all over the province...not once was I ever looked at as being different or made to feel guilty. In fact, I was always welcomed with open arms, invited over for dinner and BBQs, to go fishing, invited into the Long House, asked to witness naming ceremonies, newly elected Chief ceremonies, and have been honored to receive a blanket during another ceremony.

[MindBomber]

MB: As the Revscene First Nation advocate, can you tell us what % of your background is First Nations?

Generally speaking, I find identifying percentages to be in very poor taste.

Full disclosure though, I'm 50% Algonquin and 50% Irish/Canadian.

Wait, I thought it was about Chief Spence trying to get Harper to meet with her.

Or was it supposed to be protesting against Bill C-45?

I'm sure if I looked through two dozen different media sources, I'd find three dozen different opinions on what it's all supposed to be about.

Occupy 2.0, anyone?

Chief Spence is continuing her protest until tangible progress is made; understandable, given the lack of progress that arose from the 'Aboriginal Summit' with the Government one year ago.

The AFN identified a series of objectives at a CBC press-conference.

1. Rescind the changes to environmental provisions brought forward by the two omnibus bills.

2. Re-negotiate resource revenue sharing agreements.

3. Develop a strategy to replace the Indian Act.

4. Equalization of education quality for indigenous children.

5. Introduce changes to the education system across Canada, like those seen in Manitoba (ie. educating non-indigenous children better on the indigenous issues).

6. Action on missing women.

AFN lays out goals - Aboriginal - CBC Player (http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/Politics/ID/2324452378/)

[dinosaur]

Wait, I thought it was about Chief Spence trying to get Harper to meet with her.

Or was it supposed to be protesting against Bill C-45?

I'm sure if I looked through two dozen different media sources, I'd find three dozen different opinions on what it's all supposed to be about.

Occupy 2.0, anyone?

I do agree with you. I posted a bit about my opinion a few pages ago....honestly, I am a little on the fence as to what is going on right now. AT first I was 100% behind Idle No More as I am not a fan of C-45. I was impressed and excited to see the unification of Canada's FN fighting against a Bill, which realistically, effects all Canadians. I was hoping it would open a dialogue about the actual Bill which includes SEVERAL items totally un-related to FN issues and the Indian Act. I was not happy with the cuts to the environment last year and even less impressed with this Bill. I was hoping Idle No More would engage the public and encourage people to stand-up to the Harper Gov't (personally, I am not a Conservative and I an NOT happy with Harper and the direct the country is going).

My thoughts now are of disappointed. I do not feel a unification off all FN people and I find that that message is unclear, overwhelming, unorganized, and confusing.

I am finding it hard to fully support Idle No More. But, that does not mean I don't want change to the current system. My issue in this thread is not necessarily the discussion pertaining to the Idle No More movement. My issue is with some rs members' overall perception of FN people. This is why I am always involved in these types of threads....I can not simply sit here, read some of these posts, and keep my mouth shut. I get tired of ready the same thing over and over and the overtly racist comments is rather shocking. I may be white...I may be middle class...the Indian Act, reservation system, residential schools, treaties, and all other FN issues may have no impact on my life whatsoever, but I will not sit back and keep quiet when I think people are flat-out wrong, naive, racist, and misinformed.

I feel, personally, that if I do not speak out against something that is wrong, I am no better than the person who says it.

[Graeme S]

I feel, personally, that if I do not speak out against something that is wrong, I am no better than the person who says it.

I agree with this, along with the proviso that a person who argues against something without knowing the full information is no better than the person who argues for it.

Limited information and narrow viewpoints are the hobgoblin of having too much easily accessible and digestible information. Nobody goes in-depth from multiple points of view anymore.

[Jason00S2000]

'Idle No More' is about establishing equality



No more indian act, no more chiefs, no more special treatment for anyone.

We will then, and only then, be equal.

...until then? Pay, pay, pay...

[Graeme S]

No more indian act, no more chiefs, no more special treatment for anyone.

We will then, and only then, be equal.

...until then? Pay, pay, pay...
No more chiefs, no more premiers...


If wishes were horsepowers, I'd be in a Veyron.

[Jason00S2000]

No more chiefs, no more premiers...


If wishes were horsepowers, I'd be in a Veyron.


Are indian chiefs elected by individual bands? How long is the term for?


There are many, many Chiefs that make more annual income than Harper, yet they manage much, much smaller populations.

Why?

The whole Chiefs system is corrupt from top to bottom. They are poverty pimps that have to keep other indians down to stay relevant.

[Graeme S]

Are indian chiefs elected by individual bands? How long is the term for?


There are many, many Chiefs that make more annual income than Harper, yet they manage much, much smaller populations.

Why?

The whole Chiefs system is corrupt from top to bottom. They are poverty pimps that have to keep other indians down to stay relevant.
Isn't that essentially a microcosm of society?

[Soundy]

Regardless of whatever happens, as long as natives know they can point to the past and get money for their future, we're going to see this movement continue.

It's a lesson Quebec has learned well: threaten to leave Canada, get tons of money thrown at you. Classic "Squeaky Wheel" theory in both cases.

[Soundy]

'Idle No More' is about establishing equality

No more indian act, no more chiefs, no more special treatment for anyone.

We will then, and only then, be equal.
Which makes it all the more ironic - and sad, to those with a legitimate stake in the movement - that some also-rans would be (allegedly) using the movement to further their own agendas to grab power...

[dinosaur]

Are indian chiefs elected by individual bands? How long is the term for?


There are many, many Chiefs that make more annual income than Harper, yet they manage much, much smaller populations.

Why?

The whole Chiefs system is corrupt from top to bottom. They are poverty pimps that have to keep other indians down to stay relevant.

Yes, they are elected by the members of the band. Usually the term in 2 years.

Like any group of politicians, some are corrupt. SOME. You can not paint the whole system as being bad. There are a lot of FANTASTIC Chiefs that do great things for their Nations, develop economic strategies, promote education, encourage personal health and development, and strength their bands.

[MindBomber]

It's a lesson Quebec has learned well: threaten to leave Canada, get tons of money thrown at you. Classic "Squeaky Wheel" theory in both cases.

Except, First Nations and Aboriginal people are not having, "tons of money thrown at [them];" a primary concern is simply to receive equal funding to non-indigenous Canadians.

No more indian act, no more chiefs, no more special treatment for anyone.

We will then, and only then, be equal.

...until then? Pay, pay, pay...

The Indian Act could not be considered suitable to govern any community of people worldwide.

A primary objective of 'Idle No More' is its removal and replacement with a fundamentally restructured agreement.

Band Councils and Chiefs could not be considered an issue, and will not be eliminated; any attempt to do so would violate Supreme Court rulings, negating the legitimacy of the Government.

Band Councils and Chiefs lead and represent distinct communities with specific interests, the majority of whom earn very low salaries or volunteer, a minority of whom lead large businesses or large populations and receive market-rate salaries in return, and an even smaller minority of whom receive unjustly high salaries (and I point you to IA for an explanation). There are small communities throughout the Province and Country led by a Mayor and City Council, a very similar structure to those seen in Aboriginal communities.

Aboriginal people are not interested in the special treatment they receive, communities have volunteered to rescind them; a minor and selective tax break is moot if your child cannot receive a reasonable quality education.

[Jason00S2000]

Except, First Nations and Aboriginal people are not having, "tons of money thrown at [them];" a primary concern is simply to receive equal funding to non-indigenous Canadians.


How much money was spent last year by the department of Indian affairs?

Why is there no department of Asian affairs? Or Caucasian affairs?

Why is there even a department of Indian affairs at all? Why are we not equals?

[Graeme S]

How much money was spent last year by the department of Indian affairs?

Why is there no department of Asian affairs? Or Caucasian affairs?

Why is there even a department of Indian affairs at all? Why are we not equals?
Because of a treaty that was signed more than a hundred years ago which made all FN issues the sole responsibility of the Federal Government.
And at the time their mentality was "okay, great, we'll make them assimilate by sending them to residential schools and teach them to be good Canadians", then the administrators refused to allow families to stay together, beat kids for using their own names or languages, did some extremely quiestionable shit which helped to destroy their culture, and then let them go.

Oh, and the government gave them some land to live on ('cause, y'know, fair's fair, right?) but that land happens to be a teeeeeeeeeeeeensy tiny fraction of what they used to live and survive and forage on from before Canada was colonized. Oh, and then there's some places like Haida Gwaii where there were villages of a couple hundred people that were decently successful on their own, but then Europeans came and brought diseases that wiped out LITERALLY 90% of the population there, resulting in a village and culture which could no longer exist on its own.

So then people say "well, get an education to get a job!". But then the Federal government doesn't provide as much per native student as non-native students do because they get a combination of federal and provincial funding. Which means they can't afford the same quality of schools or teachers. And because of the abuses and issues from residential schools, many children have suffered from various forms of abuse, neglect or disabilities (including numerous cases of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome). Also, many FN people are distrustful of the schooling system in general. Why? Because of residential schools.

"But it's okay, we've learned!"
"...so what are you gonna do that's better?"
"We're not gonna destroy your culture this time!"
"prove it"
"you have our word"
...



And this is just the tip of the ranty iceberg. One of the things that annoys me about the ranty things that you've been posting recently (annoys, not causes excessive problems for me) is the fact that you've ignored the several posts that MB's made about the fact that the Indian Act is completely and totally fucked and is causing a fuckton of problems on reservations because of the wording and the ancient legalese and the fact that successive governments have been afraid to go in and make changes for fear of being labelled racist or what have you.

The system is broken. Bitching about how badly it's broken will not change the fact that it's broken as fuck. At least this way they are lobbying for change so that there's some pressure from somewhere inside the native community so that the government can finally fucking start fixing this shit up.



[/rant]

[Jason00S2000]

The system is broken.
[/rant]

The school's closed, the prison's open!

Dude, as long as we have a separate system for NATIVES over EVERY OTHER CANADIAN this shit will never, ever end. Hands will be out looking for money until the end of fucking time.


In case nobody notices, culture advances rapidly in our modern times. I've changed so much in the last 10 years. My life is a constant ebb and flow of change.

If natives want to hold onto a prehistoric culture of beating drums, being angry about the past, and blocking roads to get more government money, they're going to be fucked forever. This is fucking 2013, get with the times. Beating a drum, learning how to speak your native language, making beadwork, and wearing feather headresses ain't going to get you JACK or SHIT in today's world.

Imagine if I woke up one day and decided to go full-on German. Like, Charlemagne-German. I wore a suit of armor, got really good at swinging a broadsword. Then I would block roads and be like "OH FUCK I CAN'T GET MONEY OR WORK BECAUSE OF DISCRIMINATION AGAINST MY FUCKING ARMOR AND SWORD FUUUUUCKKKK!"

...

Idle No More is a fucking racist movement designed to make white people feel guilty while Natives continue to want to get paid for living in the past.

This is 2013. Modernize or be left in the dust. Their choice.

[Eastwood]

I have a question for the First Nations on this board.

In regards to the future of your movement, would it be better for the people to outright become owners of individual properties from reserves that could be bought and sold to outsiders? For instance the Harper government would give you titles to your house and land and I could purchase it.

Also do you think there should come a time when First Nations should pay tax equivalent to the rest of society? I understand at the moment why they don't, as they are far behind in areas of poverty, education, and employment and need every opportunity to get ahead. But eventually the probability the money train will stop within our lifetime is highly likely.

[Soundy]

Except, First Nations and Aboriginal people are not having, "tons of money thrown at [them];" a primary concern is simply to receive equal funding to non-indigenous Canadians.

I guess our definitions of "tons" differ. Attawapiskat has received, what, $90M from the Federal government since 2005? That's not including provincial input, or what they bring in themselves (which according to this article (http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/12/04/brett-hodnett-the-real-math-behind-attawapiskats-90-million/), all-in amounts to $34M+ in annual revenues).

For a single town of under 1400 people... I'd call that "tons". And that's just ONE town.

So from the article, the Federal government in the 2010-11 fiscal year, gave Attawapiskat around $17.6M. That's on the order of nearly $13,000 per person coming into the town... now if we're going to talk "equality", and assuming around one million status natives in Canada (I believe that's the last number I heard reported), that means the feds are shoveling $13,000,000,000 ($13 billion) at FNs every year. Obviously the actual figures vary from one group to the next, but by any reckoning, I think that rates as "tons of money".

[Jason00S2000]

some pressure from somewhere inside the native community so that the government can finally fucking start fixing this shit up.

[/rant]


Individual responsibility?


Incredible idea, that MORE government is somehow going to fix this.


Absolutely laughable.


The only way this is going to get fixed is if there is no status indian. We need to all be Canadians and Canadians only.

[Graeme S]

I see no reason why there are absolutes that need to be created, nor why changes need to be instantaneous. But changes need to be made. If we say "take it or leave it", we all lose because everyone will just hate each other even more. Each side needs to listen to the other and figure out what the fuck to do about this.

I think there are very few people who are insisting on a purely return-to-the-land lifestyle. But that having been said, if I've got some land in the sticks and there's minerals under the ground, those rights are mine. But if it's a reserve where that's the case, the negotiations have to go through the Federal Government first (if I recall correctly from earlier discussions). If loans or development wants to be made or gotten, they have to go through the Federal Government. Everything goes through the fucking Federal Government. We need a systematic method of addressing the issues that the native peoples currently face and figure out a way to gradually bring them into mainstream society in an orderly way.

The 'take it or leave it' idea was tried with residential schools. And we can see how successful that's been. Any kind of absolute solution, even going back to prohibition has done nothing but cause more mistrust, disagreement and crime than existed before.

[CharlesInCharge]

Jason tell us how the latest Alberta energy deal to China for 15 billion dollars is going to benefit us more if Harper spent it then the first nations?

[Graeme S]

Just wanted to bring these statistics back to the front since they seem to have been missed.

British Columbia and the Federal government spent $15,332 per capita in 2010.

Alberta and the Federal government spent $16,888 per capita in 2010.

Saskatchewan and the Federal government spent $16,335 per capita in 2010.

Manitoba and the Federal government spent $17,070 per capita in 2010.

Ontario and the Federal government spent $15,324 per capita in 2010.

Quebec and the Federal government spent $11,148 per capita 2010.

New Brunswick and the Federal government spent $16,680 per capita in 2010.

Prince Edward Island and the Federal government spent $16,943 per capita in 2010.

Nova Scotia and the Federal government spent $15,673 per capita in 2010.

Newfoundland and the Federal government spent $19,623 per capita in 2010.

The following is an outline of the Consolidated Government Revenue and Expenditures (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/govt48b-eng.htm)

http://s9.postimage.org/fx3fa8ijj/INM.png

Health, Social Services, Education, Housing, and Regional Planning and Development costs equal an average conservative total of $12,077 per capita.

As required by the Indian Act - the Federal Government assumes expenses associated with First Nations education, housing, community infrastructure (water and sewage systems), social support services, and health benefits. Including the cost of ongoing treaty negotiations, the Federal government spent $6168 per capita total on First Nations and Aboriginal people in 2011.

That amounts to a spending difference of at least $5909 per capita, greater than a 49% disparity.

Not surprisingly - one of the most fundamental complaints arising from reserves such as Attawapiskat is the low quality of education, health care, and infrastructure.

Given these figures, I'm straining to understand the perpetuation of the myth that First Nations people are severely entitled, and receiving benefits greatly above that of 'ordinary' Canadians.

Everyone screams - FUCK DAMN ENTITLED DRUNK INDIANS, but the real problem is THE DAMN ENTITLED DRUNK NEWFIE FISHERMAN. (I'm being facetious, of course).

I both welcome and strongly encourage a person to dispute my points.



Nothing, and that's the essential point, and the source of so much frustration among First Nations people.

The Lubicon Cree currently have no treaty ceding land rights. A treaty has been sought for decades, no official agreement has currently been reached, but $14 billion in oil and gas has been extracted from the lands in question. I'm sure a treaty will be reached, and the timing will coincide with resource extraction being totally ceased.

The Algonquins of Barriere Lake have no treaty ceding land rights, but an are seeking an agreement. The land in question generates $100 million in annual revenue including logging and hydroelectric revenue. Imagine a significant portion of the land were transferred back to the Algonquins, and a typical self-governance treaty were assumed surrendering all tax exemptions and entitlements. The result - a preservation of culture, an ending of 'white guilt' money transfers, and a continued revenue stream via the jobs created by an environmentally sensitive logging. I see no downside, except for the Government, who lose a measure of control, do you?

The requests made are not unreasonable; they're beneficial to First Nations people and 'ordinary' Canadian Citizens, but perhaps not Government.

The only method of compelling Government to consider First Nations requests more seriously is to exert public pressure, and that's the objective of Idle No More.

[Eastwood]

Is my question going to go unanswered Graeme S?

[Jason00S2000]

Just wanted to bring these statistics back to the front since they seem to have been missed.

Misleading, sensationalist crap.


Health, Social Services, Education, Housing, and Regional Planning and Development costs equal an average conservative total of $12,077 per capita.

As required by the Indian Act - the Federal Government assumes expenses associated with First Nations education, housing, community infrastructure (water and sewage systems), social support services, and health benefits. Including the cost of ongoing treaty negotiations, the Federal government spent $6168 per capita total on First Nations and Aboriginal people in 2011.

That amounts to a spending difference of at least $5909 per capita, greater than a 49% disparity.



So they're trying to tell me that they can break down all the expenditures of a province down on an absolute "Non-native spending" and "Native spending" basis?

As if. Natives obviously are a part of the base per-capita spending, and the $6168 is ON TOP of what is already spent on the "general population."


Any way we look at it, the Chiefs are going to continue getting fat paid while the poor natives are used as examples of why the Chiefs need MORE MONEY without proper audits.

Where's Chief Spence's expense reports? Why are 80% of them untraceable?

[MindBomber]

How much money was spent last year by the department of Indian affairs?

Why is there no department of Asian affairs? Or Caucasian affairs?

Why is there even a department of Indian affairs at all? Why are we not equals?

The Indian Act states 'Indians' are wards of the Federal Government.

The Federal Government therefore must manage services otherwise managed by Provincial Governments like Education, Health Care, Social Services, and Infrastructure. Indian Affairs is the consolidated branch of the Federal Government managing the aforementioned services; treaty negotiations aside it is not a special branch.

The annual budget of Indian Affairs is approximately $7 billion. Conservatively, Indian Affairs spends only 51% per capita to remunerate the aforementioned services, proportionate to that spent per capita by other individual branches combined to provide the same services for non-Aboriginal people.

So they're trying to tell me that they can break down all the expenditures of a province down on an absolute "Non-native spending" and "Native spending" basis?

As if. Natives obviously are a part of the base per-capita spending, and the $6168 is ON TOP of what is already spent on the "general population."

I wrote that, it is most assuredly not misleading or sensationalist.

If a service provided by the Provincial Government is designated the responsibility of the Federal Government, the cost is billed back to Indian Affairs.

[Jason00S2000]

The Indian Act states 'Indians' are wards of the Federal Government.



Yeah for us to be equal, that has to end.

[MindBomber]

Yeah for us to be equal, that has to end.

Yes, it is an extremely high priority of the 'Idle No More' movement for it to end.

I guess our definitions of "tons" differ. Attawapiskat has received, what, $90M from the Federal government since 2005? That's not including provincial input, or what they bring in themselves (which according to this article (http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/12/04/brett-hodnett-the-real-math-behind-attawapiskats-90-million/), all-in amounts to $34M+ in annual revenues).

For a single town of under 1400 people... I'd call that "tons". And that's just ONE town.

So from the article, the Federal government in the 2010-11 fiscal year, gave Attawapiskat around $17.6M. That's on the order of nearly $13,000 per person coming into the town... now if we're going to talk "equality", and assuming around one million status natives in Canada (I believe that's the last number I heard reported), that means the feds are shoveling $13,000,000,000 ($13 billion) at FNs every year. Obviously the actual figures vary from one group to the next, but by any reckoning, I think that rates as "tons of money".

Indian Affairs department budgets are public information, you'll see they are under $7 billion.

[Graeme S]

I have a question for the First Nations on this board.
Is my question going to go unanswered Graeme S?
I'm not first nations, actually. I'm fifth generation Scotch-English descended Canadian, so I didn't really feel a duty to answer what you aimed at the FN people of the board. Since you've asked, though...

In regards to the future of your movement, would it be better for the people to outright become owners of individual properties from reserves that could be bought and sold to outsiders? For instance the Harper government would give you titles to your house and land and I could purchase it.
Do I think that they should have title to their land? I don't see why not, but I think it would greatly depend on the nature of the band; in urban areas where most people have their own home/yard and there's not a lot of unused or empty common space it may be very simple to say "that's your house now". Of course, some of those houses may be old and have problems--so what if you are given title to a house which has problems you were unaware of and are now stuck with the repairs on?

One of my exes worked with a woman who lived on the reserve, and it turned out that she had a slow leak in her roof; it had taken a few years to really soak in but mould had taken hold. Let's say she had gotten title to the house. She would then be stuck with the costs of repairing a pre-existing condition that she was not aware of at all. And because she lacks the capital to repair it (she didn't purchase the house, after all), how does one determine who should be held liable? It's entirely possible she may end up having to sell because the cost of repairing it is more than she would be able to afford.

In the rural areas where the land is more open, how would you do that? I haven't even got the faintest idea how land is organized there, whether or not it's done in a similar way to the reserves here or not. So while I agree in principle, it's a question of whether or not the kinks could be properly ironed out.
Also do you think there should come a time when First Nations should pay tax equivalent to the rest of society? I understand at the moment why they don't, as they are far behind in areas of poverty, education, and employment and need every opportunity to get ahead. But eventually the probability the money train will stop within our lifetime is highly likely.

I do believe that when things reach parity and the native bands themselves are essentially at the point of self-sufficiency that they should face the same tax barriers that we do. Whether or not this will be seen within our lifetimes is a big question, though. What we see as sweeping changes that make a difference now are not always. Think about it like this: if we make a change to education and housing policy now, the effects won't be seen for another...let's say five years. One thing about governments is that everything moves fucking slowly. So five years from now new education programs, housing programs, and all that other jazz goes into effect.

So the kids five years from now will start improving. Now they'll find a mixture of levels of success because they'll still face many of the pressures that currently exist on reserves and within FN communities. If the programs are done right and successfully educate the kids and start integrating them into mainline society, then they'll become more successful. But it won't be until the generation raised by those kids that things will truly turn around.

This isn't a quick fix; it's not something that can be changed overnight or be done instantly. It's going to take time. And everyone fucking hates that it's going to take time. But it's a question of taking time and doing it right, or saying "fuck you, my way or the highway" which, as we all know, has been soooooooooo successful for both sides so far.





As a random aside, I find it kind of offensive that you assumed I was First Nations simply because I wasn't casting blame and feel that the answer is not just a one-sided blame game. This kind of mentality, the "if he disagrees with me he has to be one of them!" is one of the reasons that the negotiations are so challenging. Each side sees the other's view as untenable, which means nobody even wants to try finding a compromise.

And for the record, no, I haven't had many dealings with native people, and the ones I have had have been an extremely mixed bag; some extremely unpleasant and some quite nice. But when people are dicks to me I don't instantly assume that they're assholes, I wonder what's wrong, if they've had a bad day, if I've done something to set them off, or anything else of the sort. I try not to be too terribly judgmental; you'll notice that most of what I've been typing to this point is requests for clarification, requests for civility, points and counterpoints on issues of logic and the like.

And sometimes, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[MindBomber]

I have a question for the First Nations on this board.

In regards to the future of your movement, would it be better for the people to outright become owners of individual properties from reserves that could be bought and sold to outsiders? For instance the Harper government would give you titles to your house and land and I could purchase it.

Also do you think there should come a time when First Nations should pay tax equivalent to the rest of society? I understand at the moment why they don't, as they are far behind in areas of poverty, education, and employment and need every opportunity to get ahead. But eventually the probability the money train will stop within our lifetime is highly likely.

Thank you, Eastwood; you've asked two intelligent, well-informed questions.

I personally believe, community ownership of property is a more significant benefit than divided ownership. Issues with community ownership undoubtedly exist, it is not as simple a system as individual ownership. Many of the current issues exist purely as a result of Indian Act wording and Government ownership, however, and during a transfer to self-governance a system for community ownership can be established quite effectively. I think community ownership might sound odd too people who are not aboriginal, but I can't think of anything better than the ways its been implemented in some places.

The Tsawwassen Band voluntarily rescinded all tax exemptions when a self-governance agreement was negotiated, and they've become a model for other communities pursuing similar goals. I would feel confident saying, equal taxation across all Aboriginal communities is very plausible within the immediate future. I say its plausible in the immediate future, because the only tax exemptions the majority of Aboriginal people receive are applied to HST/GST for a few purchases annually. The qualifications for exemptions are highly limited.

[Jason00S2000]

The Tsawwassen Band voluntarily rescinded all tax exemptions when a self-governance agreement was negotiated


How can I negotiate self-governance for residents of Gastown?

[Eastwood]

As a random aside, I find it kind of offensive that you assumed I was First Nations simply because I wasn't casting blame and feel that the answer is not just a one-sided blame game. This kind of mentality, the "if he disagrees with me he has to be one of them!" is one of the reasons that the negotiations are so challenging. Each side sees the other's view as untenable, which means nobody even wants to try finding a compromise.

And sometimes, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Thank you Graeme S and MindBomber.

Holy shit I was just asking a question, and nowhere in my question did I cast blame or played a one-sided game? Where did you get the idea that I was giving any mentality of "if he disagrees with me has to be one of them"?

I just assumed you were FN because it appeared the thread was an open forum for asking FN questions.

Thanks for the response regardless, but you're an asshole not based on FN issues.

[Soundy]

How can I negotiate self-governance for residents of Gastown?

:lawl:

[toyobaru]

Everyone should be equal, no special treatment. Free up some money for the government. Im tired of hearing people whine for more free shit and abuse our system.

[MindBomber]

Everyone should be equal, no special treatment. Free up some money for the government. Im tired of hearing people whine for more free shit and abuse our system.

Your comment is not relevant to the discussion, because people are not requesting, "free shit."

[MindBomber]

I believe, Douglas echos many of our thoughts...

It turns out that writing a column about Idle No More and the ongoing battle by Indians in Canada for fair treatment attracts racists the way a wet lawn calls out to worms....

...

As CBC.ca reported, Galloway talked to a Toronto aboriginal artist named Keesic Douglas, who said he has read the comment threads and has had to make himself stop.

“I keep thinking, who are these people who write these things?” Douglas said. “Is that my next-door neighbour?”

full article (http://www.firstperspective.ca/news/2963-mallick-canadian-anti-idle-no-more-racism-grows-online)

[dinosaur]

It is pretty disappointing and sickening to read these comments (on and off rs) as for some reason, it seems to be more acceptable to be racists towards Canada's FN.

In my previous career, I was always blown away by the remarks people would make...and I am not talking about people I didn't know. Friends, family, acquaintances, etc. would think it was OK to do so and I would spend a lot of time explain the who, what, where, and why things were the way they were. I hope I changed minds and educated them and over time their perspectives totally changed.

It is shocking what happens when people educated themselves on a topic such as this.

[Graeme S]

Thank you Graeme S and MindBomber.

Holy shit I was just asking a question, and nowhere in my question did I cast blame or played a one-sided game? Where did you get the idea that I was giving any mentality of "if he disagrees with me has to be one of them"?

I just assumed you were FN because it appeared the thread was an open forum for asking FN questions.

Thanks for the response regardless, but you're an asshole not based on FN issues.
I owe you an apology. I was a dick, and it's totally my bad. It's just been a bit frustrating for me trying to guide this thread towards civilized discussion. Your post reminded me very much of a-CharlesinCharge-style "so are you gonna ignore me or does this mean I won? because I know I'm right" single-shot statement.

Your assumption was not unreasonable especially considering the general tone and timbre of this thread, so I duly apologize.


Oh, and as a sidenote, I am an asshole--just ask the people I've banned :lawl:

[Jason00S2000]

It seems to be more acceptable to be racists towards Canada's FN.


Canada is multicultural.

First Nation people do not believe in multiculturalism. They are monocultural.

I've watched a ton of YouTube videos with natives saying "We will never assimilate and lose our culture." I just want to know, what part of their culture believes in cellular phones and the internet?

The whole thing is so fucking retarded. The average 1st nation native is a peasant pawn used by the Chiefs to get money to pad their lifestyles while keeping the average native dumb and unemployable so they can continue the cycle of poverty. This keeps the Chiefs relevant.

Chiefs are like the Feudal lords of medieval England, and the average native is a serf. The crops they sow are poverty, and the King(Canadian Government)is constantly throwing money at the Lords to put out the fires. The Lords can rally the serfs to protest their conditions, where the Lords will then benefit from greater payments that will never trickle-down to the serfs and only continue this cycle.

[dinosaur]

I am frightened by how misguided you are.

I would caution you to not gather your information from the same place you can find 'a ton of videos' of people doing the cinnamon challenge, cat tricks, and shitty cover songs.

[Tapioca]

Wow, just wow.

I don't think there's any disagreement about the fact that the system needs improving. But guess what? The special status that First Nations people have is guaranteed by the Constitution. How many times has the Constitution been changed or amended in Canadian history?

I rest my case.
Posted via RS Mobile

[Jason00S2000]

Wow, just wow.

I don't think there's any disagreement about the fact that the system needs improving. But guess what? The special status that First Nations people have is guaranteed by the Constitution. How many times has the Constitution been changed or amended in Canadian history?

I rest my case.
Posted via RS Mobile

Cool, I live in a racist country.


This is Canadian apartheid, basically.

[Gridlock]

Canada is multicultural.

First Nation people do not believe in multiculturalism. They are monocultural.

I've watched a ton of YouTube videos with natives saying "We will never assimilate and lose our culture." I just want to know, what part of their culture believes in cellular phones and the internet?

The whole thing is so fucking retarded. The average 1st nation native is a peasant pawn used by the Chiefs to get money to pad their lifestyles while keeping the average native dumb and unemployable so they can continue the cycle of poverty. This keeps the Chiefs relevant.

Chiefs are like the Feudal lords of medieval England, and the average native is a serf. The crops they sow are poverty, and the King(Canadian Government)is constantly throwing money at the Lords to put out the fires. The Lords can rally the serfs to protest their conditions, where the Lords will then benefit from greater payments that will never trickle-down to the serfs and only continue this cycle.

Go back to talking about how much ass you get on a daily basis man. Stick to what you are good at.

When you make a post that hints at having anything more than a passing knowledge based on assumptions that you've picked up from youtube and the like, then maybe you can add something to the conversation.

1. How the fuck is a cell phone, or possession of one representative of someone's culture?

Do you realize how offensive it is for someone to sit there and declare what the rules are for someone to identify their culture?

2. Your whole interest in the Chiefs and their finances.

Maybe no one is asking you. Is there corruption? Absolutely. Is there corruption in all government? Fuck yes.

I think, and this is MY opinion...this whole thing comes down to First Nations being tired of being "the Indian problem". They have been thrown on reserves, thrown a little cash, build you some shit houses, educated to be whiter....whatever, its all dealing with the indian problem.

Then, people complain because "the indians" are drinking too much, or aren't respecting the houses we built for them and so on-and call for it to stop.

THEN...they do try to organize and get faltered there too. No one has "the" answer, and can make it work right out of the box.

It's like they are being told, "great, you want self-government...you have it, BUT, from day one, each and every dollar needs to be perfectly allocated, you need to clean up that addiction problem right away, not have an ounce of corruption, clean up your streets and all your children need to be educated and college bound."

And you have NO time to accomplish it, because the rest of the country is waiting for you to fuck it up, and we'll have to go back in and throw more money at it to fix it.

The problems that this community faces are large. The solutions will take a generation to take hold. That's the nature of it.

Step one is the conversation.

[Tapioca]

Cool, I live in a racist country.


This is Canadian apartheid, basically.

You're entitled to your interpretation.

If you're so passionate about it, you should form a politcal party and have the amendment of the Constitution as one of your priorities.

Or maybe, just maybe, you should come to the conclusion of many lawyers and politicians (who have much more experience dealing with First Nations, and have higher status than you could ever dream of) who have asked the same questions and had the same thoughts as you many times over.
Posted via RS Mobile

[Eastwood]

I owe you an apology. I was a dick, and it's totally my bad. It's just been a bit frustrating for me trying to guide this thread towards civilized discussion. Your post reminded me very much of a-CharlesinCharge-style "so are you gonna ignore me or does this mean I won? because I know I'm right" single-shot statement.

Your assumption was not unreasonable especially considering the general tone and timbre of this thread, so I duly apologize.


Oh, and as a sidenote, I am an asshole--just ask the people I've banned :lawl:
Apologies all around. Want to add I knew you were a mod before my post. :badpokerface:

[Redlines_Daily]

I am frightened by how misguided you are.

I would caution you to not gather your information from the same place you can find 'a ton of videos' of people doing the cinnamon challenge, cat tricks, and shitty cover songs.

Hey come on now, that's really not fair.....Some of those covers are awesome :fullofwin:

[MindBomber]

The Indigenous people of Australia are developing an 'Idle No More' movement too :fullofwin:

I am frightened by how misguided you are.

I would caution you to not gather your information from the same place you can find 'a ton of videos' of people doing the cinnamon challenge, cat tricks, and shitty cover songs.


Misguided perceptions are a more powerful motivator than an education for some people, Jason and Tonybaru being the most current resident examples.

I am seeing steady progress overall though, thankfully..

[Great68]

They're planning to blockade the Pat Bay highway here tomorrow morning.

Glad it's in a spot that won't affect my drive to work.

[MindBomber]

I've heard rumors of similar events being planned at SFU, UBC and other institutions, but nothing confirmed.

Idle No More - Where Do We Go From Here?

Teach-in & Public Forum. 7-9pm.
University of Victoria. First People's House Ceremonial Hall.

Featuring:
Dr. Taiaiake Alfred (Professor, Indigenous Governance, UVic)
Janet Rogers (Victoria Poet Laureate, INM Victoria Organizer)
Mandee McDonald (MA Student, Indigenous Governance, UVic, INM Victoria/Denendeh Organizer)

and special guest: Wab Kinew (Media Personality, Director of Indigenous Inclusion, University of Winnipeg).

INFO: What is the Idle No More movement and where do we go from here? Bringing together local community organizers, university students and professors, and special guests, this will be an opportunity to learn, share and discuss the growing, global Indigenous Peoples' movement and how it affects and involves all Canadians. All nations and peoples welcome.

Tea, coffee and refreshments will be served.

**This event will be LIVESTREAMED. Please use #J16Forum hashtag for Twitter & social media discussion during the event. Live back channel conversation will be moderated - and online audience will be able to interact and ask questions to the panel.**

Co-presented by the University of Victoria Faculty of Human & Social Development and Indigenous Governance.

[Jason00S2000]

Misguided perceptions are a more powerful motivator than an education for some people, Jason and Tonybaru being the most current resident examples.

I am seeing steady progress overall though, thankfully..


Why do indigenous people have different rights than anyone else?


Unless, of course, you're an indigenous supremacist...

[El Bastardo]

Why do indigenous people have different rights than anyone else?


Unless, of course, you're an indigenous supremacist...


http://i.imgur.com/KnhBw.jpg

You can see that what motivates us is neither self-conceit or self-interest, but only a burning desire to join the battle in this grave eleventh hour for our native homeland ... One last thing I can tell you. Either the First Nations revolution begins tonight or we will all be dead by dawn!



Hearing about more blockades make me worry that movement is taking on fanatical elements. Its possibly building steam in a direction that will put them in direct conflict with the military soon enough. Knowing Canada's policy of appeasement, this will be extremely effective as they likely want to avoid another Oka standoff and will be given whatever they want.
I'm sure MindBomber isn't a supremacist but I do think he is idealizing the intentions of this movement. As I've stated before, some of the leaders in this movement, however "fringe" they may be, are still leaders within their respective communities and hold influence among their people. When they speak their people may listen, and that could result in the aforementioned domestic terrorism that some chiefs have promised.

[MindBomber]

Hearing about more blockades make me worry that movement is taking on fanatical elements. Its possibly building steam in a direction that will put them in direct conflict with the military soon enough. Knowing Canada's policy of appeasement, this will be extremely effective as they likely want to avoid another Oka standoff and will be given whatever they want.

I'm sure MindBomber isn't a supremacist but I do think he is idealizing the intentions of this movement. As I've stated before, some of the leaders in this movement, however "fringe" they may be, are still leaders within their respective communities and hold influence among their people. When they speak their people may listen, and that could result in the aforementioned domestic terrorism that some chiefs have promised.

Hi El Bastardo,

I understand the concerns you hold, but maintain the position that the aforementioned leaders garner little respect among indigenous communities or the larger movement. I would consider the distinction between atypical indigenous leaders, those who follow them, and typical indigenous leaders, along with those who follow them, analogous to radical 'Islam' and Islam. Radical 'Islam' does not reflect the value of Islam, but the attention it attracts often leads to those who rely on media sources for information developing misconceptions. Radical elements within the indigenous community similarly do not reflect the values of the whole, but a reliance on media sources will convey a very different image. Official 'Idle No More' channels have repeatedly advocated against violence, and restated the necessity to educate and not to create enemies. Furthermore, during the J11action day, among over a hundred protests only one blockade was planned. In prior threads, we discussed Terry Nelson, and established that although he has a small contingent of supporters, they're severely misguided; that has not changed, and the example of Nelson can be used as a proxy for all such leaders.

I'd like to consider myself fairly objective, even under conditions such as these. If 'Idle No More' were not a peaceful initiative, seeking to educate and inform to gain support and apply political pressure through the proper means, I would distance myself from it as quickly as I do from Nelson.

[Gridlock]

I'm more interested in the fact, more so than idle no more, or occupy before it, but at the sheer amount of "movements" in general.

Quebec student uprising.
Occupy
Idle
just...europe. All of it.
hell, I'll put tea party in the list

So much social strife. Obviously, its not hard to find the underlying points...the economy is in the tank, its not getting better, and until there is some type of real change, its not going to get better. People need to feel that the economy is good for the economy to be good. They need for the gov't to do something to make them feel that. Honestly, its too bad that war gets so ugly now so quickly, as that usually did the trick in the past.

(the last part was facetious...well, mostly...it DID work)

[Soundy]

Why do indigenous people have different rights than anyone else?
Because they were here first, of course.

Which got me to thinking... in the long history of indigenous peoples and their "conquistadors", the North American First Nations have had it pretty easy. Okay, so getting shoved into reserves and being kept down under the White Man's thumb isn't an ideal situation, but consider how many aboriginal populations in history have been enslaved by the newcomers, if not utterly wiped out.

If our First Nations think they have it bad, they should look at what the whites did in South Africa (for example). Or at some of the actions of expansionist empires like the Mongolians and the ancient Romans.

Jump in a time machine, go back to Peru in the mid-1500s, and ask your average Incan-in-the-street what they think of the Spaniards - bet they'd give their eye teeth to simply be herded into a reserve:

After the fall of the Inca Empire many aspects of Inca culture were systematically destroyed, including their sophisticated farming system, known as the vertical archipelago model of agriculture. Spanish colonial officials used the Inca mita corvée labor system for colonial aims, sometimes brutally. One member of each family was forced to work in the gold and silver mines, the foremost of which was the titanic silver mine at Potosí. When a family member died, which would usually happen within a year or two, the family would be required to send a replacement.

[MindBomber]

Idle? Know More! A public panel on indigenous issues.

https://www.facebook.com/events/151302958355184/
-------------------------------------------
Tuesday Jan 22 at 5:30 pm
Alice MacKay Room
Vancouver Public Library (Georgia and Hamilton)
Unceded Coast Salish Territories
------------------------------------------

This panel is open to the public. All are welcome to attend, especially non-Natives to understand the long history of racism and colonialism in Canada against Indigenous people that has given rise to the current Idle No More movement, to highlight and lift the voices of Indigenous peoples resisting across these lands, and to think through how to be more informed and responsible allies.

Please spread the word - encourage your friends, your family, your co-workers, your faith group, your community/student group to attend.

Accessibility info: Vancouver Public Library - Branch Details (http://www.vpl.ca/branches/generic/accessibility_at_the_central_library)


* Territorial opening by Cease Wyss: T’Uy’Tanat-Cease Wyss is Skwxw’u7mesh ethnobotanist, media artist, educator, and food security activist. She has stood up with other Indigenous Peoples to fight for native peoples’ rights to hunt, gather, and fish in their traditional territories.

* Jerilynn Webster: Jerrilyn is a Vancouver based female hip hop artist, beat-boxer, performing artist, aboriginal youth educator, single mother, award-winning actor, and member of the Nuxalk and Cayauga Nations who is "using [her] words to go upwards/not backwards." She is an Idle No More organizer.

* Glen Coulthard: Dr. Glen Coulthard is a member of the Yellowknives Dene and a scholar of contemporary Indigenous politics. He is an Assistant Professor in First Nations Studies and the Department of Political Science at UBC. He is a founding member of the Camas Books & Infoshop in Victoria and the Dechinta Center for Research and Learning in Yellowknives Dene territory.

* Khelsilem Rivers: Khelsilem is a community organizer and language revitalization activist. Influenced heavily by his grandmother, he always believed in the importance of being Indigenous, despite encroachment of a foreign culture, society, and civilization. In this regard, Khelsilem has pursued avenues where he can strengthen all aspects of Sḵwx̱wú7mesh and Kwakwa̱ka̱’wakw ways. He is an Idle No More organizer.

* Darla Goodwin: Singing Thunderbird Child-Twice Standing Woman is a Cree Ojibwa from Peepeekisis First Nation in Saskatchewan. She is a knowledge keeper, carrier of the Sacred Correction Pipe for the Desecration of the female side of life, starting with our mother the Earth. She is a ceremonial First Nations woman and an organizer for Idle No More.

* Lisa Yellow-Quill: Lisa Yellow-Quill is Nehiyaw, Nekaway, Dakota from Treaty 1: Long Plains, Manitoba. She has many years of experience providing advocacy, support and counseling to women and families living with multiple-barriers, oppressions, and experiences of violence both in crisis situations and in complex long-term processes. This foundation has supported her ability to be a noted spokesperson on behalf of Turtle Island’s Murdered and Missing Girls and Women. Lisa is a Pipe Carrier, Sundancer, and Keeper of several Ceremonies.


MORE SPEAKERS WILL BE ADDED SHORTLY

[Redlines_Daily]

"unceded coast Salish territory" :facepalm:

I'm usually a pro-activist guy, but I do not support this movement. I believe we should all respect aboriginal heritage and culture, not rights. The 'they were here first' argument just does not resonate with me at all. Equal rights and equal treatment for all Canadians is what I support. I find it annoying that people are automatically labelled a racist if they want to speak up against this. I'm not saying that is the case on RS, but just a general feeling I get when I read responses to anti-idlenomore comments on FB, news sites, etc.

[Soundy]

"unceded coast Salish territory" :facepalm:
I read something once that said if all the different native bands in BC actually claimed all of their "traditional territories", it would come to something like 140% of the total area of the province.

[MindBomber]

"unceded coast Salish territory" :facepalm:

I'm usually a pro-activist guy, but I do not support this movement. I believe we should all respect aboriginal heritage and culture, not rights. The 'they were here first' argument just does not resonate with me at all. Equal rights and equal treatment for all Canadians is what I support. I find it annoying that people are automatically labelled a racist if they want to speak up against this.

Hi Redlines,

The line, "unceded Coast Salish territory," tends to be inflammatory if the context is not understood. I considered editing out that portion of the announcement, but felt it would be inappropriate to selectively remove a line. The line only intends to recognize the lack of a treaty agreement, and does not intend to paint the current residents of the land as unjust occupiers or something similar. The Government and Bands have come to very reasonable, mutually fair agreements in a number of regions across Canada, and attention is being drawn to the unwillingness to negotiate one in regards to the traditional territory where the seminar will take place.

Fundamentally, "Idle No More," is a movement seeking to establish equal legal standing and treatment for indigenous people. Of the six objectives of 'Idle No More:' three are dedicated to establishing equal rights and treatment for indigenous people; one is primarily dedicated to establishing equal rights and treatment for indigenous people, but also to environmental protection for the benefit of all current and future Canadians; one is dedicated to establishing a greater knowledge and respect for indigenous people by adapting school system curriculum (like Manitoba has done); and only one is dedicated to progress on treaties where none exist, re-negotiation of treaties through legal consideration, and recognition of treaties that have gone ignored. The final objective I noted aside, 'Idle No More,' is very much aligned with what you support.

It would be unfair to label a person merely voicing a reasonable opinion a racist, such as the one you've given above. Please, accept my apologies on behalf of the larger movement if you've experienced such treatment; it is contrary to the fundamental purpose of 'Idle No More.'

I read something once that said if all the different native bands in BC actually claimed all of their "traditional territories", it would come to something like 140% of the total area of the province.

Keep in mind, traditional territorial lines are not located on clearly defined boundaries. In an era before latitudes, longitudes, geographical surveys, and the like, a bit of overlap was not unusual. Treaty agreements take this into account.

[Soundy]

Keep in mind, traditional territorial lines are not located on clearly defined boundaries. In an era before latitudes, longitudes, geographical surveys, and the like, a bit of overlap was not unusual. Treaty agreements take this into account.
I understand that... the problem is, in THIS era, where the overlap can be mapped and defined, if bands start saying, "This is our land and we want to control it", pretty soon they're going to start bumping into each other. Given how militant some of them have become, I can't see that ending well - either people will get killed, or lawyers will get very rich.

[Soundy]

BTW, that National Post article I linked a couple pages back, has a line claiming it costs around $250,000 to build a house on a reserve, and calculated that for "X" money put in by the government, they could build "only" Y number of houses...

To which I say, bullshit. Even considering the cost of bringing in materials, it shouldn't cost anywhere near a quarter-mil to build a *sufficient* house. A decent-sized house, suitable to the environment, with plenty of room, should be do-able for under $100k - you can get two and a half times as many houses for that.

Want to save even more money? Instead of bringing in a bunch of construction crews, bring in one crew, a couple extra leads, and a trainer or two, and teach the people there how to build their own houses. Not only do you save a buttload on the initial labor, you save even more in the long haul as the outside crews are no longer needed... AND you equip at least a couple dozen of your people with a solid, sale-able, REAL-WORLD TRADE.

It was said about Occupy, and it applies just as much here: if these protesters took all the time and energy they spend protesting, and put into getting their hands dirty to actually DO something, they'd be a lot further ahead, short-term AND long-term, and a lot more useful would actually get done.

[MindBomber]

I understand that... the problem is, in THIS era, where the overlap can be mapped and defined, if bands start saying, "This is our land and we want to control it", pretty soon they're going to start bumping into each other. Given how militant some of them have become, I can't see that ending well - either people will get killed, or lawyers will get very rich.

Hi Soundy,

You've raised a very reasonable point; at the risk of sounding dismissive though, I would not consider it an especially serious concern. In rural areas, Bands would like to achieve 1-1.5% control over traditional territories; In urban areas, much less than that. The small proportions allow land grants to be kept from interfering with one another quite easily. I suppose, where significant concentrated resource deposits come into play difficulties might be encountered... but still, I'm not too concerned.

BTW, that National Post article I linked a couple pages back, has a line claiming it costs around $250,000 to build a house on a reserve, and calculated that for "X" money put in by the government, they could build "only" Y number of houses...

To which I say, bullshit. Even considering the cost of bringing in materials, it shouldn't cost anywhere near a quarter-mil to build a *sufficient* house. A decent-sized house, suitable to the environment, with plenty of room, should be do-able for under $100k - you can get two and a half times as many houses for that.

Want to save even more money? Instead of bringing in a bunch of construction crews, bring in one crew, a couple extra leads, and a trainer or two, and teach the people there how to build their own houses. Not only do you save a buttload on the initial labor, you save even more in the long haul as the outside crews are no longer needed... AND you equip at least a couple dozen of your people with a solid, sale-able, REAL-WORLD TRADE.

It was said about Occupy, and it applies just as much here: if these protesters took all the time and energy they spend protesting, and put into getting their hands dirty to actually DO something, they'd be a lot further ahead, short-term AND long-term, and a lot more useful would actually get done.

In Greater Vancouver: building an unadorned home costs roughly $125/ft, and given large scale contracts $100/ft should be possible; that would place costs at $250,000-$200,000 for a 2000/ft family home with paid labour. In more remote areas, costs rise significantly because of the costs of transport; I've heard quotes citing transport at 50% of the cost of construction. I'm not disputing your points, but they're not entirely in line with my experience in construction.

I do strongly support your second point, there's absolutely no reason to not build homes habit-for-humanity style. I believe indigenous communities would be supportive of this system, but the dollars for materials must flow through Indian Affairs, and its so inefficient it makes other areas of Government look productive, so I don't know if they'd allow it.

Just a note: I believe, a replacement for the Indian Act would remove provisions for on reserve housing, because they originate from the line titling indigenous people as wards.

On your final point, I unfortunately must disagree. The objectives of the 'Idle No More' movement are not achievable through conventional labouring, because they primarily involve parliamentary issues that require initiative at the upper levels of Government.

[El Bastardo]

So from the article, the Federal government in the 2010-11 fiscal year, gave Attawapiskat around $17.6M. That's on the order of nearly $13,000 per person coming into the town... now if we're going to talk "equality", and assuming around one million status natives in Canada (I believe that's the last number I heard reported), that means the feds are shoveling $13,000,000,000 ($13 billion) at FNs every year. Obviously the actual figures vary from one group to the next, but by any reckoning, I think that rates as "tons of money".


Indian Affairs department budgets are public information, you'll see they are under $7 billion.

Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell, and also the other way round, to consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise.


But what about the money the bands already have from investments and assets? Why not pour that money back into the community?


I find it annoying that people are automatically labelled a racist if they want to speak up against this. I'm not saying that is the case on RS, but just a general feeling I get when I read responses to anti-idlenomore comments on FB, news sites, etc.

The art of leadership... consists in consolidating the attention of the people against a single adversary and taking care that nothing will split up that attention.

I agree with Redlines entirely on this perception. And I don't think its happening here on RS but I've read some pretty :fulloffuck: things on Twitter in reference to those who didn't support it, especially in the early days of this movement when I was trying to figure it out. Although I realize a person sending a tweet doesn't represent the opinion of the whole, these tweets are the thoughts and feelings of real people involved in Idle No More and these statements do come from a real place.
This "If you're not with us, you're against us" attitude likely isn't winning any support from the undecided.



BTW, that National Post article I linked a couple pages back, has a line claiming it costs around $250,000 to build a house on a reserve, and calculated that for "X" money put in by the government, they could build "only" Y number of houses...

To which I say, bullshit. Even considering the cost of bringing in materials, it shouldn't cost anywhere near a quarter-mil to build a *sufficient* house. A decent-sized house, suitable to the environment, with plenty of room, should be do-able for under $100k - you can get two and a half times as many houses for that.


For the folk-community does not exist on the fictitious value of money but on the results of productive labor, which is what gives money its value


Who is making the decisions on who to hire to build these homes? Have they taken steps to ensure that nobody is getting kickbacks for these contracts? If $250k per home is the winning bid, I'd hate to see how high those losing bids went.



It was said about Occupy, and it applies just as much here: if these protesters took all the time and energy they spend protesting, and put into getting their hands dirty to actually DO something, they'd be a lot further ahead, short-term AND long-term, and a lot more useful would actually get done.

The broad masses of a population are more amenable to the appeal of rhetoric than to any other force.

[toyobaru]

"unceded coast Salish territory" :facepalm:

I'm usually a pro-activist guy, but I do not support this movement. I believe we should all respect aboriginal heritage and culture, not rights. The 'they were here first' argument just does not resonate with me at all. Equal rights and equal treatment for all Canadians is what I support. I find it annoying that people are automatically labelled a racist if they want to speak up against this. I'm not saying that is the case on RS, but just a general feeling I get when I read responses to anti-idlenomore comments on FB, news sites, etc.

THIS.

THANKS.

[Tapioca]

But what about the money the bands already have from investments and assets? Why not pour that money back into the community?

Not all First Nations have investments of their own. Many First Nations' investments are still controlled by the federal government where there are specific rules for using those monies.


Who is making the decisions on who to hire to build these homes? Have they taken steps to ensure that nobody is getting kickbacks for these contracts? If $250k per home is the winning bid, I'd hate to see how high those losing bids went.

I can assure you that the decisions for building homes are pretty watertight, particularly if the First Nation is still an "Indian Act" First Nation. Aboriginal Affairs doesn't have a bunch of people sitting on their bums all day - every risk is considered (whether it comes in the form of hiring contractors, etc.) and every decision is subject to several levels of scrutiny which is why housing on reserve takes such a long time to get built.

[MindBomber]

Hi El Bastardo,

I'll respond in a divided format, as it ensures clarity.

But what about the money the bands already have from investments and assets? Why not pour that money back into the community?


I've not delved deeply into Attawapiskat's books; although they're the most prolific current example, I haven't found the time.

In the instances of other Bands with considerable investments and assets, however, you'll see they've done as you suggest. The Musqueam, Squamish, Okanagan, and Osoyoos Bands have invested in their individual communities.

The majority of Bands have limited, if any, investments or assets, and do not have direct control over how they are utilized.


I agree with Redlines entirely on this perception. And I don't think its happening here on RS but I've read some pretty :fulloffuck: things on Twitter in reference to those who didn't support it, especially in the early days of this movement when I was trying to figure it out. Although I realize a person sending a tweet doesn't represent the opinion of the whole, these tweets are the thoughts and feelings of real people involved in Idle No More and these statements do come from a real place.

This "If you're not with us, you're against us" attitude likely isn't winning any support from the undecided.


I've not engaged myself in the discussion on Twitter, because it has historically proven itself to not be venue facilitating intelligent discussion - quite the opposite. Following the 2012 Presidential election, were racially prejudice posts not trending?

Twitter aside, speaking in terms of the entire discussion: I hold myself to a high standard of conduct, and expect all others taking any position to assume the same responsibility. I've generally been approving of RS and Facebook, but Media Comments sections and apparently Twitter have been abysmal whether supportive or not. You also know, outright racism against indigenous people is quite prevalent, we've both read the threads dating back a couple years, and that can lead to emotions being a bit raw for people supportive of 'Idle No More.' Even Graeme had a little moment a couple pages back, I think understandably.


Who is making the decisions on who to hire to build these homes? Have they taken steps to ensure that nobody is getting kickbacks for these contracts? If $250k per home is the winning bid, I'd hate to see how high those losing bids went.

I won't restate what Tapioca has said, but take note of my earlier response to Soundy, I do not find $250k especially unreasonable given the cost of transport and home construction.

THIS.

THANKS.

Hi toyobaru,

If I've overstepped, accept my apology

As you've seen above, I welcome well-informed discussion with anyone who wishes to engage me in it.

[Gridlock]

I agree with Redlines entirely on this perception. And I don't think its happening here on RS but I've read some pretty :fulloffuck: things on Twitter in reference to those who didn't support it, especially in the early days of this movement when I was trying to figure it out. Although I realize a person sending a tweet doesn't represent the opinion of the whole, these tweets are the thoughts and feelings of real people involved in Idle No More and these statements do come from a real place.
This "If you're not with us, you're against us" attitude likely isn't winning any support from the undecided.

Isn't this a bit of a double standard though?

There really is no organization of the Idle movement. There are people that are coordinating things like protests and the like, but there is no central control. It's the same that was said of Occupy before it. A news crew can go in and pick any old person they see, have them speak to the Occupy movement and they become the face of the movement for that day. So if you grab someone that says, "fuck this, I'm here for the free food." you have single handedly diminished the protest with selective media coverage.

So the same thing happens here. You can find examples of angry tweets/posts/messages from FN people and say there is an angry undertone of with us or against us attitudes that don't bring the average canadians together. Do these people speak for the collective? Hell, I can hop on my twitter right now and put angry things on it with an #idlenomore hashtag and speak for a movement that I am not a part of, if I wanted to.

Why don't all Canadians have to answer to the racist and bigotted comments of our fellow Canadians? How about RS members?

[El Bastardo]

Why don't all Canadians have to answer to the racist and bigotted comments of our fellow Canadians? How about RS members?


Well my problem wasn't entirely with the bigoted language. When I lived downtown years ago I was called a 'Fucking Immigrant' by a group of Native protesters in front of the Catholic church while I was walking by and told to 'Go back to my own country'. I'm an adult. I can handle that kind of language and I realize it likely doesn't represent the views of all first nations against people in the 95.7%. Vice versa. If anyone of Aboriginal lineage hears a white person call them a "chug" or a "spearchucker" they don't believe that all white people believe this. If they do, they're just as ignorant as John Q. Molson belching loudly at reruns of Corner Gas and complaining about how many immigrants he sees nowadays. People are entitled to their ignorance but that doesn't make it my issue.

I do have a problem with the perception of those who don't support the movement. Either with them being called 'racist' or 'uneducated' or 'ignorant'. Simply put, they don't agree with the movement. Not agreeing with the movement does not equate to racism.

It seems as if the cry of racism is the go-to for some members of this movement. Its easy, it paints people with a very wide brush, and based on the history of relations between the 4.3% and the rest of Canada (and you'll find MindBomber agreeing with me on this one in his earlier post) it may not be far from the truth in some cases based on historical precedent and statistics. But opposition isn't always steeped in racism and I think its wrong to try to play off of "white guilt" in the pursuit of support for this half-baked movement.

http://i.imgur.com/i35eE.jpg

So.... all of the drivers inconvenienced were white? Or were the other non-Caucasian drivers happy for the inconvenience? Or should all left wing magazines have to answer for the statement of this magazine. I'm not quite sure. But hey, they weren't with you so they must be against you right?

Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live.



But, as I've said earlier, I'm an adult who can make up his own mind. And I made up my mind to not support this movement based on the movement itself. I'm not alone in my conclusions and how I came to them. According to some, I'd be "ignorant" but, honestly, I don't care because two things are happening.

1) The movement is distancing itself from it's public "face". Chief Spence met with the Governor General and the Prime Minister met with Native leaders, yet the hunger strike continues and her demands are inconsistent. She seems to be "over" in Idle No More. She still has a platform. She still has supporters. But her credibility has waned.

2) Some of the organization and leadership is beginning to pull away from people they don't want to be associated with stating that their mission is now to educate the nation about treaty rights and Aboriginal issues. Other Native leaders who have associated themselves with the movement are continuing to remain in the spotlight for their extremist promises. The loudest clap gets the attention and I wouldn't be surprised if folks who didn't know much about the movement now equate it to Native demands to avoid domestic terrorism.


The movement, through its lack of cohesion, has been discredited on two fronts. Sure, it will continue, but for the brief time the spotlight was held too many people wasted their chance to make something truly great happen. Instead, I believe those that would support Native causes regardless of what they are will continue to do so but those folks who could have been persuaded to help with this movement have been alienated.

[Soundy]

On your final point, I unfortunately must disagree. The objectives of the 'Idle No More' movement are not achievable through conventional labouring, because they primarily involve parliamentary issues that require initiative at the upper levels of Government.
They don't need parliamentary support to put some sweat into helping themselves. Indeed, that's something that can be done IN SPITE of the federal government. Hell, they want to be self-governing, the first step toward that is to become more self-sufficient. When you're RELYING on handouts, you're at the mercy of those providing them. Instead of saying, "give me the handouts, but with less control/accountability/oversight", isn't it better to say, "I no longer need your handouts, so fuck you and your iron fist"?

The point is to MAKE YOUR OWN CHANGE, rather than trying to force someone else to change things for you. There's so much time and energy in this world wasted on COMPLAINING.

[Soundy]

1) The movement is distancing itself from it's public "face". Chief Spence met with the Governor General and the Prime Minister met with Native leaders, yet the hunger strike continues and her demands are inconsistent. She seems to be "over" in Idle No More. She still has a platform. She still has supporters. But her credibility has waned.
A caller to the radio a couple days ago made a good point: she's been off proper nutrition for a long time now. That alone tends to cause... well, let's call it a confused perspective, in almost everyone. To put it bluntly, it's highly likely that her hunger strike (sorry, "liquid diet") is making her less and less coherent. This is why it was a bad idea to start with: the very thing you're doing to try to get attention, will eventually eat away (pardon the pun) at your credibility.

[Jason00S2000]

The point is to MAKE YOUR OWN CHANGE, rather than trying to force someone else to change things for you. There's so much time and energy in this world wasted on COMPLAINING.


Same thing with #SaveBCfilm


Everyone wants the GOVERNMENT to fix their lives!

[Hondaracer]

The point is to MAKE YOUR OWN CHANGE, rather than trying to force someone else to change things for you. There's so much time and energy in this world wasted on COMPLAINING.

/thread
Posted via RS Mobile

[MindBomber]

They don't need parliamentary support to put some sweat into helping themselves. Indeed, that's something that can be done IN SPITE of the federal government. Hell, they want to be self-governing, the first step toward that is to become more self-sufficient. When you're RELYING on handouts, you're at the mercy of those providing them. Instead of saying, "give me the handouts, but with less control/accountability/oversight", isn't it better to say, "I no longer need your handouts, so fuck you and your iron fist"?

The point is to MAKE YOUR OWN CHANGE, rather than trying to force someone else to change things for you. There's so much time and energy in this world wasted on COMPLAINING.

Soundy,

Please, go back and read over my earlier posts.

Honestly, I'm not sure anyone reads anything I type.

Do you know what indigenous self-governance entails?

Pretty much, this: "I no longer need your handouts, so fuck you and your iron fist."

I've said a few times, Tsawwassen rescinded tax exemptions and extra entitlements with the adoption of self-governance.

Other Bands want what Tsawwassen spent millions to achieve, because when they achieve it they'll be treated as legal equals, and that their children will be educated on the same terms as any other Canadian.

and indigenous people don't need parliamentary support?

I do not understand how the Indian Act will be retracted without it;

I also do not understand how the environmental provisions written into bill C-45 will be retracted without it;

Indigenous people want fucking equality, and achieving it in law is a serious step to that ends.

Parliament makes laws, no one else, so how are indigenous people supposed to make change without its support?

[El Bastardo]

I think both sides of this particular video come off a little ignorant at times but hearing "This is our land" at two separate times demonstrates a mentality from some taking an active and public role in this movement that anyone who isn't an aboriginal is a second class citizen.

RAW VIDEO: an Edmonton man confronts Idle No More protestors : Latest : Video (http://video.stcatharinesstandard.ca/video/featured/latest/1418394179001/raw-video-an-edmonton-man-confronts-idle-no-more-protestors/2098990014001)

[Soundy]

Listened to Jon McComb's commentary this afternoon, apparently one of the actual founders of Idle No More has stated that not only do they have no official connection with all these protests going on, but even Chief Spence's hunger strike is not connected to them. In other words, pretty much ALL of this going on now is not organized or sanctioned by the "real" INM group.

[Graeme S]

Listened to Jon McComb's commentary this afternoon, apparently one of the actual founders of Idle No More has stated that not only do they have no official connection with all these protests going on, but even Chief Spence's hunger strike is not connected to them. In other words, pretty much ALL of this going on now is not organized or sanctioned by the "real" INM group.
Which I think is something that Mindbomber has mentioned--several times. The fact that people who claim to be acting on behalf of or speaking on behalf of INM are not actually sponsored by the core movement itself.

Much like Occupy and many other decentralized 'for-the-people' organizations, the sub-groups and para-groups it spawns are taking much of the attention. And this causes several problems; people get distracted, people get deterred, people get sidetracked, and people point to the extremists and use them to discredit the main movement. And if you'll notice, Mindbomber has been careful to try and point out the core INM values and that the sound-bite statements that've been coming out of the media and videos like that "raw confrontation" are not at all the same things.

[CharlesInCharge]

If the Crown orders harsh police action and an insurgency starts in this wave of global revolution for all out sovereignty, I dont think they can round up all first nations into camps to stop it. Only by blackmailing and paying large sums of money to traitors can they stop/slow extreme elements if they are to exist.

PressTV discussion on idle no more.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGizCVlc3vY

[Jason00S2000]

PressTV discussion on idle no more.



That was the most fair and balanced news piece I have ever watched. Thank you!

[Ronin]

Because Iran has the fairest, most balanced news in the world.

That's why we're sure Jews stole Ahmadinejad's clouds with their Jew science.

[El Bastardo]

You guys can't see it, but I can because I'm a mod. Charles in Charge delivered the "Zionist Conspiracy" bullshit nicely.

Anyhow, the context is that CiC feels that the Canadian media is slanting their position on First Nations news and cited a CBC story on Syria as an example of further propagandist reporting by the mainstream media.

Graeme was right to keep it on topic.

At CharlesInCharge's instance, and as the one who created the thread, I back Graeme's decision (not that he needs backing on any decision he makes)

[Soundy]

If you're intelligent.... blah blah blah

My full post was edited by a mod, I provided a crucial CBC propaganda piece from a few days ago by it was deemed off topic.
When have you ever posted anything that was on-topic?

Obviously nobody here is "intelligent" because we don't share the same bizarre ideas as you. Guess I need to ratchet down my tinfoil hat about a dozen notches tighter and cut off the blood flow to my brain so I can make sense of what you're saying.

[StylinRed]

If you're intelligent, you'd see that these posted questions from a Canadian news clip, condition the watcher that the first nations brought their plight on themselves.
http://i.imgur.com/EKqBnpd.jpg


its Sun news... i dont think anyone but Belka takes them seriously... that's like quoting a survey by FOX news

[Soundy]

its Sun news... i dont think anyone but Belka takes them seriously... that's like quoting a survey by FOX news

This just in from Sun news: xilley gets laid. Film at 11.

[Graeme S]

With the amount of pruning I do these days, I feel like I should be a mod for the Home & Garden section.

[Ronin]

Notice how the hysteria over all this is dead now that hockey's back? Called it.

[Graeme S]

Bread and Circuses baby. Never fails!

[Soundy]

http://sphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/485971_10151263341404037_943124504_n.jpg

[El Bastardo]

Found this linked on Facebook by another Revscene member. I'm not going to take credit for their discovery but I do want to post in this thread as its relevant.

Why Idle No More holds back the dream of Canadian equality | Full Comment | National Post (http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/01/23/anthony-sowan-why-idle-no-more-holds-back-the-dream-of-canadian-equality/)

[MG1]

NICE avatar, Bastardo............ thanks given just for that.

Damn, that's nice.............. no need for avocado.

jeeezuz....... that's nice.......


Did I mention how nice it is? I think it's the garter.

[westopher]

I think its the tits.
Good read eb. I agree on many of his points.

[Ronin]

She's solved world hunger.

[hotshot1]

I understand that people are upset over the govt approving the budget without consulting the Aboriginals - it's in the constitution and so it must be followed.

On the other hand, how do you justify some people living in a different system - basically socialism - while in the same country the rest of us are living in a capitalist system?

Maybe I don't understand the movement but why should they get preferential treatment? The notion that when the Europeans came to the Americas they took the land of the "Natives" is not even worth debating. In an ideal situation, everyone in the country would be contributing to the economy - so we should start that process, not stand back in fear of being called racist.

[CharlesInCharge]

Where did you get the idea that the conquering of the first nations was over?
and these treaties... they dont stipulate contaminating water ways, killing food sources and resulting to cancer.


"Why Idle No More holds back the dream of Canadian equality"
Heres one for the newspapers

Why ZOG holds back the dream of Canadian oil nationalization.

Nationalization is the process of taking a private industry or private assets into public ownership by a national government or state.
None nationalized oil countries are.... Mexico, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, U.K.