[heleu]

German cars lose out in reliability survey - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/9815860/German-cars-lose-out-in-reliability-survey.html)

German cars are not as reliable as their reputation suggests. That's according to one warranty provider, which has studied its database to reveal the makes of cars most and least likely to have engine problems. Warranty Direct, which with 50,000 policies on its books, claims that Audis, BMWs and Volkswagens have some of the least reliable engines available.

Indeed, among the cars owned by its policy holders, the only engines to have failed more than Audis were those from the now defunct MG Group. In total 1 in 13 of MG Rover motors failed in the past year, and problems presented themselves in 1 in every 27 Audi engines. Mini was the third least reliable with a failure rate of 1 in 40, while BMW finished seventh (1 in 45) and Volkswagen ninth (1 in 52).

The most reliable engines came from Honda, with a failure rate of just 1 in 344, with Toyota in second (1 in 171) and, maintaining some honour for the German brands, Mercedes in third (1 in 119).

The company also pointed out the high cost of repair that can be associated with engine problems. In its highest claim, which was for a Range Rover Vogue, an engine failure cost $20,000.

Engine failures are the biggest fear for any motorist as they're the ones that can lead to the most astronomical costs because of the parts and hours or labour required to fix them. The number of failures may be low compared to areas such as axle and suspension damage but engine repairs almost always result in costs reaching the thousands for motorists who aren't covered by a warranty.

Engine reliability - top 10 brands.

1. Honda (failure rate: 1 in 344)

2. Toyota (failure rate: 1 in 171)

3. Mercedes-Benz (failure rate: 1 in 119)

4. Volvo (failure rate: 1 in 111)

5. Jaguar (failure rate: 1 in 103)

6. Lexus (failure rate: 1 in 101)

7. Fiat (failure rate: 1 in 85)

8. Ford (failure rate: 1 in 80)

9. Nissan (failure rate: 1 in 76)

10. Land Rover (failure rate: 1 in 72)

Engine reliability - bottom 7 brands

1. MG Rover (failure rate: 1 in 13)

2. Audi (failure rate: 1 in 27)

3. Mini (failure rate: 1 in 40)

4. Saab (failure rate: 1 in 40)

5. BMW (failure rate: 1 in 45)

6. Volkswagen (failure rate: 1 in 52)

7. Mitsubishi (failure rate: 1 in 59)


:devil:

[snails]

honda! :alonehappy:

[dared3vil0]

Kind of glad i sold the Nissan and bought a honda after reading that...

[ForeverYours]

The gap between Toyota and Lexus reliability :suspicious:
I always assumed Lexus was more reliable or should be on par...

200k kms and the 2jz still going strong :fullofwin:

[freakshow]

.. who buys a BMW/Audi for it's reliability and maintenance costs?

[Akinari]

Honda for life. As long as you do routine maintenance, you can expect your engine to last forever.

[tofu1413]

hmmm.. surprised mitsubishi is at the least reliable... their new 4B11 motors are pretty reliable so far from what ive seen.... and its used throughout their current line up

[Jgresch]

^ Well you coudl also say that it is like top 12 or something. 10th is 1 in 72 for failure and bottom 7 is 1 in 59...

[Traum]

Who in the world would ever have thought that Germany engines were reliable? Even without doing any formal polls, I would have known that Honda and Toyota were the most reliable brands.

But now, I am kind of surprised to see Mercedes that high up though.

[extracrunchie]

Who in the world would ever have thought that Germany engines were reliable? Even without doing any formal polls, I would have known that Honda and Toyota were the most reliable brands.

But now, I am kind of surprised to see Mercedes that high up though.

Totally agree, everyone knows that its best to own a german car brand new and then sell it 3-4 years later.

Unless they mean right out of the factory with this failure and not long term tests.

[FN-2199]

...Subaru didn't make the top ten list. :alone:

At least we aren't in the bottom :)

[lowside67]

It wasn't always this way though. The BMW 6 cylinder engines from the 80s and 90s were beyond bulletproof. There are 3 mid 90s M3s for sale in Vancouver alone with over 300,000ks on the original motors! My racecar had 180,000 miles (289,000kms approx) on the original drivetrain and had phenomenal leakdown and compression numbers. I don't know when it changed but I would definitely be a bit more nervous with more modern european cars than I would be with the glory-day models.

[Mr.C]

No surprise, especially because nobody follows the maintenance and oil change schedule in the manual.

[Graeme S]

Oh, Mitsubishi. Good ol' crankwalk.

[ts14]

im surprised that mazda didnt make the list, all the lost apex seals would not approve

[Traum]

im surprised that mazda didnt make the list, all the lost apex seals would not approve
I think Mazda is quite a small player over in the UK. Besides, the RX-8 is such a niche car that even if all their engines blew, they'd still only amount to a fraction of Mazda's total sales over there.

For the most part, the MZR range of engines are quite reliable.

[unit]

this is just engine failure, not overall car problems.
when consumer reports did overall reliability tests, toyota, scion, lexus, mazda, and i believe subaru came out on top.

[gars]

this is just engine failure, not overall car problems.
when consumer reports did overall reliability tests, toyota, scion, lexus, mazda, and i believe subaru came out on top.

And I think Jeep came out at the bottom.

[JesseBlue]

where's lada?

[Splinter]

...Subaru didn't make the top ten list. :alone:

Too many people buying accessports and cranking up the boost til they lose a piston :fullofwin:

[dvst8]

Just surprised by the gap between Honda and Toyota.

[dangonay]

What do they qualify as an "engine failure"? I find it hard to believe that 1 in 27 Audis needs a new engine or 1 in 45 BMW's do. Or does having a CEL light come on that requires a new sensor or ignition coil count as a "failure"?

[bcrdukes]

What do they qualify as an "engine failure"? I find it hard to believe that 1 in 27 Audis needs a new engine or 1 in 45 BMW's do. Or does having a CEL light come on that requires a new sensor or ignition coil count as a "failure"?

Agreed.

The article is very vague and does not get into specifics. For all we know, it could be because the person who owned the vehicle didn't close the gas cap and in turn, freaks out because there's a CEL on the dash.

Catastrophic failure like a piston punching a hole through the hood - okay. I get it. But the article in itself should be taken lightly, if at all.

[Manic!]

This is from a aftermarket Warranty provider. How many people by a after market warranty for a new BMW?

[dangonay]

^ Trust me, a LOT of people do.

[tofu1413]

^ Trust me, a LOT of people do.

having worked at bmw and seeing lots of bmws going in and out, i vouch for that!

[BrRsn]

whatever the statistics say, you can't beat the raw sound of an inline 6 at 7000 rpm -- just saying :sweetjesus:




Anyways, what do you expect. They're all aluminium engines with upper middleclass people driving them who don't know the first thing about engines -- "Oh, the temperature is too high? I better drive really fast to the dealership so the air can cool down the engine"

[Yodamaster]

1.8L 8v, 1987 get on my level bro.

[bcrdukes]

Anyways, what do you expect. They're all aluminium engines with upper middleclass people driving them who don't know the first thing about engines -- "Oh, the temperature is too high? I better drive really fast to the dealership so the air can cool down the engine"

What is this? An aircooled Porsche 993? :troll:

[BrRsn]

What is this? An aircooled Porsche 993? :troll:

nah bro,


Volkswagen Type 1

http://gomotors.net/pics/Volkswagen/volkswagen-type-1-01.jpg

This car had even the mighty fuhrer wet between the cheeks in a bought of gitty boy-ish excitement.


EDIT: Appropriate avatar is appropriate.

[slicrick]

whatever the statistics say, you can't beat the raw sound of an inline 6 at 7000 rpm -- just saying :sweetjesus:




Anyways, what do you expect. They're all aluminium engines with upper middleclass people driving them who don't know the first thing about engines -- "Oh, the temperature is too high? I better drive really fast to the dealership so the air can cool down the engine" this, when I worked at GM I heard a story.

someone came in because "their car randomly stopped starting" (it was towed) turns out there was no coolant in the car the thing overheated and warped the head etc. The person did not stop even though the temp gauge was pinned to hot their response was "isn't that for the outside temperature"

I wasn't working their at the time but it sounded hilarious, they argued to get warranty work done on it also... :suspicious: :facepalm: :fulloffuck:

[beproud]

Hmmm and I was thinking about picking up a BMW too eh. At least I feel better about my benz lol

[ts14]

owned enough bmws and benzs to say that u dont buy them for reliability.

im not even gonna bother with audi and vw

[payrent]

My friends GL450's engine blew up and MB wants 20k to fix it.

For BMW's engine failures, particularly the 35i engines it's just a fuel pump, not the whole engine..

Not surprised with audi/vw, especially that 1.8T....

[Traum]

You know, having had multiple Volkswagens over the past 15 or so years, I really don't think Volkswagens are that unreliable at all. They are by no means Honda or Toyota reliable -- I am not saying they are. But for the most part, I only get 1 or 2 minor issues at most in a year with the car, so I wouldn't say they are that bad at all.

[325isMSPORT]

hmmm.. surprised mitsubishi is at the least reliable... their new 4B11 motors are pretty reliable so far from what ive seen.... and its used throughout their current line up

remember what happened at mission? the ACC belt went it was brand new ahahahah

[acurael]

My friends GL450's engine blew up and MB wants 20k to fix it.

For BMW's engine failures, particularly the 35i engines it's just a fuel pump, not the whole engine..

Not surprised with audi/vw, especially that 1.8T....

what year is the GL?

[FerrariEnzo]

hyundai not listed in either.. haha I guess its good....

[heleu]

You know, having had multiple Volkswagens over the past 15 or so years, I really don't think Volkswagens are that unreliable at all. They are by no means Honda or Toyota reliable -- I am not saying they are. But for the most part, I only get 1 or 2 minor issues at most in a year with the car, so I wouldn't say they are that bad at all.

1-2 issues per year?! I guess I'm just used to driving japanese.

[death_blossom]

What do they qualify as an "engine failure"? I find it hard to believe that 1 in 27 Audis needs a new engine or 1 in 45 BMW's do. Or does having a CEL light come on that requires a new sensor or ignition coil count as a "failure"?

Agreed.

The article is very vague and does not get into specifics. For all we know, it could be because the person who owned the vehicle didn't close the gas cap and in turn, freaks out because there's a CEL on the dash.

Catastrophic failure like a piston punching a hole through the hood - okay. I get it. But the article in itself should be taken lightly, if at all.

you guys read my mind exactly. they do not define what an "engine failure" is.

[vantrip]

Merc is german and its top 3 so you can't generalize about german makers. Never had a problem with the family w203-knock on wood!

[death_blossom]

Not surprised with audi/vw, especially that 1.8T....

what's wrong with the 1.8T? the 1.8T long block assembly is a very reliable engine. everything else connected to it, is your typical VAG type of stuff (electronics, turbocharger, etc).

[Traum]

1-2 issues per year?! I guess I'm just used to driving japanese.
In most years, it was 1 minor issue coming up (per year). I remember the MAF sensor dying, some O2 sensor needs replacement, a recurring turbo recirculation valve of some sort dying every 1.5 - 2.5 years, a bushing tearing up, a shift linkage issue, some coolant sensor intermittently fxxking up in sub-zero temperatures. The biggest one was a sunroof rail / clip of some sort failing. None ever left me stranded, and most were covered under warranty / extended warranty. So yes, definitely not Japanese reliable, but I'd only classify them as annoyances instead of crippling breakdowns.

[sekin67835]

Maybe it has to do the additive of ethanol in the fuel. I heard the diminishes the plastic lining in the engines and can cause them to not last as long. Anyone school me on that?
Posted via RS Mobile

[bloodmack]

ford no longer found on road dead? :troll:

[versep]

From what I understand, older BMW's have unreliable cooling systems, and the 35i's have the problem with the HP fuel pump. I heard the engines themselves are quite reliable.

[heleu]

In most years, it was 1 minor issue coming up (per year). I remember the MAF sensor dying, some O2 sensor needs replacement, a recurring turbo recirculation valve of some sort dying every 1.5 - 2.5 years, a bushing tearing up, a shift linkage issue, some coolant sensor intermittently fxxking up in sub-zero temperatures. The biggest one was a sunroof rail / clip of some sort failing. None ever left me stranded, and most were covered under warranty / extended warranty. So yes, definitely not Japanese reliable, but I'd only classify them as annoyances instead of crippling breakdowns.

I guess I like driving more than fixing cars...I lust after E30 M3s and 80s 911 Porsches, but I can only afford one car and I would be scared to daily drive those with all the potential problems.

[heleu]

ford no longer found on road dead? :troll:

lol - and FIAT is no longer Fix It Again Tony

[dark0821]

remember what happened at mission? the ACC belt went it was brand new ahahahah

lolol i rmbr getting a text from 124Y....:badpokerface:
and then i was just sitting there and was like... WHAT? :suspicious:

[bcrdukes]

From what I understand, older BMW's have unreliable cooling systems, and the 35i's

The cooling system is the Achilles heel for all BMWs.

[Tapioca]

From what I understand, older BMW's have unreliable cooling systems, and the 35i's have the problem with the HP fuel pump. I heard the engines themselves are quite reliable.

Any BMW engine that is an M-series (M20/M30/M5x) engine is bulletproof. The variable valve timing unit on newer M-series engines may fail, but so does the VTEC solenoid on Hondas. The sound of the inline-6, especially on the older M20/M30, is intoxicating.

The cooling systems in the E30 were fine, but when BMW made the change to plastic and recyclable parts in the 90s, the cooling systems became prone to failure. But, the cooling system issues are overblown - really, you're only looking at about $300 in parts every 100K.

[Mr.C]

Any BMW engine that is an M-series (M20/M30/M5x) engine is bulletproof. The variable valve timing unit on newer M-series engines may fail, but so does the VTEC solenoid on Hondas. The sound of the inline-6, especially on the older M20/M30, is intoxicating.

The cooling systems in the E30 were fine, but when BMW made the change to plastic and recyclable parts in the 90s, the cooling systems became prone to failure. But, the cooling system issues are overblown - really, you're only looking at about $300 in parts every 100K.

The M62 has a shitty chain guide design. Tons and tons of failures at around 200K-250K. Mine failed at 245.

[Tapioca]

The M62 has a shitty chain guide design. Tons and tons of failures at around 200K-250K. Mine failed at 245.

I should have qualified my statement - any inline-6 M-series engine is built to last.

BMW makes shitty V8s.

[toyota86]

i've owned and tinkered on many german engines before. mostly bmw, some mercedes and vw, few porsches. i can say from experience that they are needlessly complicated and generally have more failure points compared to japanese engines. sometimes the reasons are not clear at first why it needs to be so complicated but once you open enough of them up and go through the literature, it will make more sense. usually.

religious maintenance is a must. items that would normally last the life of a japanese engine are considered maintenance items and consumables on a german counterpart. as with most japanese stuff, when something goes wrong, it will usually try to keep running so you can get home in one piece. it will then politely suggest you go fix the problem eventually. on german products, when something goes wrong, it usually defaults to "shut it all down" mode to protect whatever good parts are still left. it will then proceed to yell at you to fix it by way of threatening you with expensive consequences.

once one comes to terms with these points, german engines aren't so bad.

[skylinergtr]

Anyways, what do you expect. They're all aluminium engines with upper middleclass people driving them who don't know the first thing about engines -- "Oh, the temperature is too high? I better drive really fast to the dealership so the air can cool down the engine"



this, when I worked at GM I heard a story.

someone came in because "their car randomly stopped starting" (it was towed) turns out there was no coolant in the car the thing overheated and warped the head etc. The person did not stop even though the temp gauge was pinned to hot their response was "isn't that for the outside temperature"

I wasn't working their at the time but it sounded hilarious, they argued to get warranty work done on it also... :suspicious: :facepalm: :fulloffuck:

funny. working at a shop, i have experienced both of these scenarios.

1) a woman in an acura EL that was overheating and she drove as fast as she could to the shop for us to take a look at it.

2) an older gentleman in a 90's buick that towed the car in for a random stall issue. Turned out to be no coolant/overheat/blown headgasket problem.

The M62 has a shitty chain guide design. Tons and tons of failures at around 200K-250K. Mine failed at 245.

the M62 is a single row timing chain as apposed to the earlier m60 engine with dual row. There are many variables to prolong the life of your valvetrain components: proper oil viscosity, oil type, oil/filter change intervals, and external tensioner replacements. Having seen your journal, your engine kicked because it had heavy amounts of sludge. Timing chains set ups are different for all vehicles. I think only japanese vehicles are more capable of doing more than 300k on the original chain/guide/tensioners. My explorer required a new timing chain kit at 230k, while my BMW at 200k is perfectly fine. I'm starting to like the idea of timing belts much more now...


BMW makes shitty V8s.

sorry, don't agree. :suspicious:

[bcrdukes]

sorry, don't agree. :suspicious:

+1

[tofu1413]

+1

+2.



i had the original M60 motor in my old 840ci...

did a car fax report, turned out it had well over 200k miles on it... suspension and bushings were tired and worn... but it ran awesome.

original motor. although it did have the alu-sil block update earlier in its life...

ran like a clock and no leaks. car was well taken care of during its life, no sludge build up in the motor was found

[J____]

ya, i remember when die hard audi fans failed me when I said audi's weren't reliable =/

[some_punk]

lol - and FIAT is no longer Fix It Again Tony

it is now Fucked In Ass Twice