[quasi]

We've all heard the jokes about what dog fuckers unionized city workers are, 4 men watching 1 man digging ect..... Well apparently there are places in Canada where it really isn't to far off.


29 Hamilton city workers sacked for 'inappropriate behaviour' | Ontario | News | Toronto Sun (http://www.torontosun.com/2013/01/29/29-hamilton-city-workers-sacked-for-inappropriate-behaviour)

Hamilton, Ont., fired 29 road repair workers over allegations they weren't doing their jobs, a city official said.

The city sacked 29 workers and suspended two more for "neglect of duties, time theft and/or breach of trust."

City manager Chris Murray said the city launched an investigation when staffers realized potholes were not being filled.

The city analyzed GPS tracking records from municipal vehicles and hired private investigators last October to follow some of the employees. The

surveillance indicated that the workers were visiting coffee shops, running errands or just sitting at home instead of doing their jobs.

Murray said the workers were fired out of respect for taxpayers.

"We have an infrastructure problem here in Hamilton," he said, "so we take very seriously how we maintain our roads, and when you don't, then you incur capital costs that you might otherwise expect."

"The inappropriate behaviour of this group of employees is very disappointing, but it is not reflective of all public works staff," said Gerry Davis, the public works general manager.

Murray said the city has been "in communication" with police over a possible theft, but no charges have been laid.

"We're gonna cross that bridge when we get to it," he said.

The city is also investigating the fired workers' supervisors.

"They had certainly oversight over what the crews were expected to do each day and ensure that that work was getting done."

The workers' union, CUPE 5167, vowed to "represent the investigated workers to ensure due process is followed."

[Soundy]

And for some reason, the one thing that jumped out at me was...

"...we take very seriously how we maintain our roads, and when you don't, then you incur capital costs that you might otherwise expect."

:fulloffuck:

[toyobaru]

I was driving down on Venables and across that park near the gelato parlour i saw 6 City of Vancouver construction workers. 2 of them doing actual work and the other 4 just chilling and chat chatting. What a bunch of garbage, but it makes me wish I was working for the city.

[CRS]

Wow, I entered this thread expecting the wrong thing.

I thought it was going to be some crazy bestiality group.

[604STIG]

We need this sort of action taken out here, sometimes if baffles me as to how long it takes to complete a street repair job once a crew starts.

[VR6GTI]

City of burnaby was repairing a sewer drain out side of my work, 2 guys working on the drain and another guy sat in the van sleeping or on the phone from 8-12 they went and had lunch came back worked from 1-3 and the same guy in the van never got out.

[Psykopathik]

there are some regulations regarding safety which require one or two guys to sit on their asses watching out, but i think usually that's not the case.

also if a private contractor does the work, he may quote the city for X amount of time to finish the job. finishing faster doesn't mean more $

when i worked at the Vancouver trade and convention center, it was like that. Finish the job and fuck off for the rest of the day. Finish in 1 hour? get 7 hrs paid free time. of course it was never 7 hrs but you get the idea. we actually worked like hell so it seemed more like we were getting paid to do shit.

[Spidey]

I was driving down on Venables and across that park near the gelato parlour i saw 6 City of Vancouver construction workers. 2 of them doing actual work and the other 4 just chilling and chat chatting. What a bunch of garbage, but it makes me wish I was working for the city.

City of burnaby was repairing a sewer drain out side of my work, 2 guys working on the drain and another guy sat in the van sleeping or on the phone from 8-12 they went and had lunch came back worked from 1-3 and the same guy in the van never got out.

Do you guys know the exact jobs for each individual that you observed? If not, you can't just assume they aren't doing their job. Were you watching them the whole time from 8-12? A lot of people here think city workings are overpaid and underworked. I myself, don't know what their duties are. Sometimes what you perceive isn't fact. Just think about that, before jumping into conclusions.

[VR6GTI]

Do you guys know the exact jobs for each individual that you observed? If not, you can't just assume they aren't doing their job. Were you watching them the whole time from 8-12? A lot of people here think city workings are overpaid and underworked. I myself, don't know what their duties are. Sometimes what you perceive isn't fact. Just think about that, before jumping into conclusions.
No i dont know his exact job.
Yes he was in front of my window the whole time.
I guess his job was "sleeping" since he had his hat tilted over his face to block the sun that was interrupting his "work" :badpokerface:

[Culverin]

I was driving down on Venables and across that park near the gelato parlour i saw 6 City of Vancouver construction workers. 2 of them doing actual work and the other 4 just chilling and chat chatting. What a bunch of garbage, but it makes me wish I was working for the city.



See, the chatting doesn't bother me.
Consider this in an office situation, you walk over the coworker's desk, with a question or to discuss how to collectively tackle a shared problem.
It's like a mini-meeting and you'd also shoot the shit.
I'm ok with that. It's productive AND necessary to talk and discuss.
It's also necessary to have a bit of social interaction to have a good working relationship.


What bothers me:


There is a 10 man construction crew. 2 guys are working, 8 are waiting on the 2 to finish. You're wasting hours.
Construction in this city takes forever to get finished. Elsewhere in the world, a sewer replacement would be done within a week.

[Prolowtone]

"There is a 10 man construction crew. 2 guys are working, 8 are waiting on the 2 to finish. You're wasting hours."

That can falls into a whole new category called union laws. If you start doing their work you can be considered as "Stealing work" as it could shorten their work hours or increase yours... yes it is a bit of bs to have that many guys on site watching tho when im sure they could set up for the next task etc

[Presto]

I hope there's enough evidence gathered so the union won't bother defending the slackers.

[anti_rice]

you guys do realize that city workers who do road work have specific tasks they are paid to do. The worker who chews up the old road only does that one specific job, the one who paves, smooths out all have different jobs. so that's why there's always a bunch of people standing around waiting for the job to finish so they can do theirs. There's also first aid attendants on scene that stand around. Then there's also engineers and supervisors.

[Prolowtone]

its not just city workers but yeah, pretty much what i was trying to get at. In this case tho there was some excessive standing around or slacking off

[dvst8]

Love it when shitty road work is done and then ripped apart to be redone soon after.
Posted via RS Mobile

[jimmyrustler]

you guys do realize that city workers who do road work have specific tasks they are paid to do. The worker who chews up the old road only does that one specific job, the one who paves, smooths out all have different jobs. so that's why there's always a bunch of people standing around waiting for the job to finish so they can do theirs. There's also first aid attendants on scene that stand around. Then there's also engineers and supervisors.

so much this

strong construction experience ITT

[payrent]

Unions served a purpose back in the days but now with modern labour laws I don't see the point.

NYC and Washington DC want to automate their subway like we do with our skytrain but guess whats stopping them?

Hostess went under, although there was mismanagement, it was the unions that sunk them.

Chrysler factory employees were caught smoking weed on the job and got rehired thanks to unions.

Too many unproductive shitbags who cant get fired and no chance of a young one to be promoted based on merit due to seniority.

Could go on & on. Just a cancer on the company IMO

[twitchyzero]

you guys do realize that city workers who do road work have specific tasks they are paid to do. The worker who chews up the old road only does that one specific job, the one who paves, smooths out all have different jobs. so that's why there's always a bunch of people standing around waiting for the job to finish so they can do theirs. There's also first aid attendants on scene that stand around. Then there's also engineers and supervisors.

no

we have many road-paving experts on RS.

:pokerface:

[GabAlmighty]

I work for the city, besides the politics, I love my job.

[Soundy]

See, the chatting doesn't bother me.
Consider this in an office situation, you walk over the coworker's desk, with a question or to discuss how to collectively tackle a shared problem.
It's like a mini-meeting and you'd also shoot the shit.
I'm ok with that. It's productive AND necessary to talk and discuss.
It's also necessary to have a bit of social interaction to have a good working relationship.


What bothers me:


There is a 10 man construction crew. 2 guys are working, 8 are waiting on the 2 to finish. You're wasting hours.
Construction in this city takes forever to get finished. Elsewhere in the world, a sewer replacement would be done within a week.


you guys do realize that city workers who do road work have specific tasks they are paid to do. The worker who chews up the old road only does that one specific job, the one who paves, smooths out all have different jobs. so that's why there's always a bunch of people standing around waiting for the job to finish so they can do theirs. There's also first aid attendants on scene that stand around. Then there's also engineers and supervisors.

Having worked in and around various trades over the years, I agree with all of this. If you're not on that specific job, you don't know who's SUPPOSED to be doing what, whether someone IS actually doing something job-related even though they may look like they're not, or whether they have to wait for someone else to finish another job before they can do theirs.

[stewie]

City of burnaby was repairing a sewer drain out side of my work, 2 guys working on the drain and another guy sat in the van sleeping or on the phone from 8-12 they went and had lunch came back worked from 1-3 and the same guy in the van never got out.

im a burnaby city worker.

guy sitting in the van, hes called a foreman, his job is to do the paperwork and to make sure the crews do the job. if hes on the phone, odds are hes talking with city inspectors/superintendents letting them know exact measurements on things regarding the job...how deep the hole is...how wide...if they're using shoring cages...what kind of material are they using to backfill the hole...what kind of fittings are they using...etc.


See, the chatting doesn't bother me.
Consider this in an office situation, you walk over the coworker's desk, with a question or to discuss how to collectively tackle a shared problem.
It's like a mini-meeting and you'd also shoot the shit.
I'm ok with that. It's productive AND necessary to talk and discuss.
It's also necessary to have a bit of social interaction to have a good working relationship.


What bothers me:


There is a 10 man construction crew. 2 guys are working, 8 are waiting on the 2 to finish. You're wasting hours.
Construction in this city takes forever to get finished. Elsewhere in the world, a sewer replacement would be done within a week.


i cant say this for other cities, but burnaby doesnt use 10 man crews, at most...5-6
the 2 guys working are the jr guys, the guys who need to do the work to learn the job. they're the little man on a totem pole.

as for wasting hours. when you've got a hole 6 feet deep, 4 feet wide, you really dont have space to fit 4+ guys in there. would you rather us dig a much bigger hole and take 3x longer(costing tax payers more money) to do the job so were all in there...or the bare minimum of what we need to get the job done?

look at it this way

lets say a sewer job is being done.
workers show up at 7am.
the sewer is 10 feet down.
it'll take 2 hours just to dig it out with a backhoe, and he can only work as fast as the dump truck can drop the material off at the dump site and return empty.
when its dug out, the senior guys go in, take the measurements and tell the jr guys whats needed and how to do it.
jr guys now jump in and do the work, usually the others stay out of the hole, so they can see if the jr guy is actually learning and understanding the job and how to take care of problems on their own if one were to happen.
once done, senior guys double check.
then the backhoe and dump truck start filling in the hole while the workers clean up the road, usually that takes 15 minutes for the crew workers to put the tools away and sweep up the road with a power broom, while the backhoe can take up to 2 hours to finish.
would you rather the workers stand outside watching the back hoe and talking amongst each other? or have them sit in the truck and sleep until they're needed to go back outside?
lets say the holes filled, now they've got to hot patch the road. they cant leave the site without being paved. so they stick around since their construction signs are already up.
paving crew gets there...theres no work for the sewer guys to do...again, sit inside, or talk outside?
paving is finished, tear down the construction signs and leave.


sorry for the long post, but it does get irritating when ppl say city workers are lazy when they've never even done our job.

[RouRK]

im an electrician and i just finished a job downtown for a company.

i was appalled by how little these people do. there had to be 27 or so that work there... they were on fb, twitter all sorts of websites that had nothing to do with work... they would go from cubical to cubical and talk to each other for a hour at a time... on a saturday one girl said she was going for lunch was gone for 3 hours..

it is a IT company...

it happens all over, union/city workers are just easy pickings to complain about.

i wish i had a desk job that paid to much.

and another thing.. they walk around like zombies cause the heat in the place is jacked.. they sit at a desk and do nothing.

[bing]

^except city workers are funded by tax payer dollars and the other is a private company.

[Culverin]

im a burnaby city worker.

Ok. Point maken.

BTW, I don't have a beef with Burnaby workers. I've lived in North bby my whole life. Vancouver on the other hand.... :pokerface:



Yeah, the union laws to me is necessary, but from what I've heard, they got a little too much to the extreme.


Re: anti_rice and first aid comment.
I'm pretty sure of a minor job site, the first aid training is cross loaded.
The first aid and fire marshall on my office floor doesn't just sit on their ass and do nothing.



stewie, any idea what was being worked on last year at Douglas Rd and Still Creek Ave?
There was construction, then nothing, then lots, then stopages then on again. This lasted MONTHS.
I'm pretty sure in HK, this wouldn't happen. They would just shut the street down for 2 weeks and just get it all done and over with.

[stewie]

stewie, any idea what was being worked on last year at Douglas Rd and Still Creek Ave?
There was construction, then nothing, then lots, then stopages then on again. This lasted MONTHS.
I'm pretty sure in HK, this wouldn't happen. They would just shut the street down for 2 weeks and just get it all done and over with.

i work in waterworks so ive some info on that spot, but im not 100% accurate since those weren't done by the city crews i work with, i think either kiewit or cewe had contracted that job.

theres a massive feeder line that was being installed, with it being under the train tracks, it has to be deep....extremely deep, or else the train vibrations will break the pipe in no time, even if its made of steel, welds would crack. they had to use a custom made drill to core the hole, and half way through, the drill broke so they had to wait until a new one was made which took a loooong time. im not sure if it broke once or twice, but i know it was fucking annoying trying to drive through there everyday.

the G.V.R.D was in control of that water line. they supply all the massive water feeder lines, and burnaby branches our lines off of them.

ps - a feeder line is a water pipe thats about 4-6 feet in diamater. burnaby usually works on 12" or smaller..sometimes bigger, but its not often, and a 12" line is enough to supply a highrise..so 4-6 feet..crazy ammounts of water

[skyxx]

Ok. Point maken.

BTW, I don't have a beef with Burnaby workers. I've lived in North bby my whole life. Vancouver on the other hand.... :pokerface:



Yeah, the union laws to me is necessary, but from what I've heard, they got a little too much to the extreme.


Re: anti_rice and first aid comment.
I'm pretty sure of a minor job site, the first aid training is cross loaded.
The first aid and fire marshall on my office floor doesn't just sit on their ass and do nothing.



stewie, any idea what was being worked on last year at Douglas Rd and Still Creek Ave?
There was construction, then nothing, then lots, then stopages then on again. This lasted MONTHS.
I'm pretty sure in HK, this wouldn't happen. They would just shut the street down for 2 weeks and just get it all done and over with.

In HK people work at least 12 hour shifts and most of the time they aren't paid the extra hours they come in for.

[kwy]

Lower level govt can be pretty ridiculous. i have some buddies that have worked for the city that have some pretty crazy stories about the shit that goes on.

[Alatar]

Reminds me of the street crew I drove by yesterday on a road test. 12 guys including the "flagger". Flagger on his cell phone, "slow" sign tucked under his arm, not even looking towards traffic. Of the 11 guys "working, 1 guy actually working, 9 guys standing around talking, 1 guy moving blocks of wood for the cement set, but taking his sweet-ass time with the form.

Clearly, our tax dollars at work, when this is happening.

Good to see something happening about it, somewhere.

[GabAlmighty]

In HK people work at least 12 hour shifts and most of the time they aren't paid the extra hours they come in for.

Oh, isn't that cute. Last time I checked though, we're in fucking Vancouver though...

[Anjew]

isnt there anyway to be more efficient with idling work crews? forexample if the sewer guys are just waiting for the paving crew, isnt there another spot in the city they can go to work on? or does the crew work as a unit? are there redundant jr workers in every work unit?

isnt it possible to devise a more efficient system? especially with highly paid unionize workers on the clock.

[quasi]

isnt there anyway to be more efficient with idling work crews? forexample if the sewer guys are just waiting for the paving crew, isnt there another spot in the city they can go to work on? or does the crew work as a unit? are there redundant jr workers in every work unit?

isnt it possible to devise a more efficient system? especially with highly paid unionize workers on the clock.

In here lies the problem, I'm not sure if it's by appearance or actual. I work as an estimator and project manager for a large construction company. When I estimate projects I do not allow for people standing around with thumbs in their asses watching others work waiting. We have guys that specialize in certain areas, if they have nothing to do in those areas they help out in other areas or they go home.

Maybe in these road construction projects this isn't possible I really don't know because it's not my area of expertise. You would think though that city employees could be more jack of all trades so less guys are needed to do the same work and you could get away with maybe one person or best case scenario nobody standing around. Again I don't know if this is possible, maybe the work is so specialized that it isn't possible.

Visually though, it pisses off taxpayers.

[freakshow]

Maybe it's fair to say that city workers are as efficient as the system lets them be. I have plenty of friends who work for the city or pseudo-crown corps like work safe bc or icbc.

NONE of them tell me how hard and demanding the job is. They frequently talk about all the amazing benefits they get though..
They acknowledge that unions are waste tax payers money, but they, hey, if you can't beat them, join them!

I hate unions with a passion.. maybe i'll work in one one day..

[payrent]

Keep in mind that a union is a VERY profitable business. Just relax while revenue comes in every 2 weeks from union dues. Occasionally sympathize with the union boy who got canned for drinking on the job. Every 4-5 years do some negotiating.

[stewie]

Maybe in these road construction projects this isn't possible I really don't know because it's not my area of expertise. You would think though that city employees could be more jack of all trades so less guys are needed to do the same work and you could get away with maybe one person or best case scenario nobody standing around. Again I don't know if this is possible, maybe the work is so specialized that it isn't possible.

Visually though, it pisses off taxpayers.

i wish we were more "jack of all trades". some cities do a rotation, where you'll be working in the roads dept. for 3 months, then you work in the sewers dept for 3 months...then water...parks...etc. but for burnaby and a few others, we strictly stick to our own depts. i work in water, i have no rights to be touching anything sewer related or paving/sidewalks etc.
if my crew digs a hole and we hit a sewer line, our jobs shut down until a sewers crew can get there asap to repair the line and vice versa.

it is somewhat specialized work, water deals with chlorination, making the water safe and drinkable, were trained how to do it. sewers are all gravity fed and use special tools that water/road workers wouldnt have, and roads crews have steam rollers on trailers that they drag around.

but were all lazy city workers who just dick around until a watermain breaks and your out of water and we have to pull 18 hour shifts to fix it just so people can take a shower in time before they go to work, or a sewer main blows and your yard suddenly turns into a porta potty swamp :p

[C5_Ryder]

I worked at the city for five years, it's awesome.

Draw back

You won't get rich doing it.
Posted via RS Mobile

[iEatClams]

In HK people work at least 12 hour shifts and most of the time they aren't paid the extra hours they come in for.

yea, but this is canada, speaking for myself personally, I dont agree with that whole come before the boss and leave after him bullshiet, no coffee/lunch break. I believe in a balance lifestyle.

although I hate unions, but I hate corporations much much more. which is why unions have power in the first place, because there will be people like me who hate corporations.

i hate unions because its hard to fire anyone, i hate that suspended with pay Bullshit.
its based on seniority, and usually the most efficient or productive, junior worker gets all the work.

However I also dont agree with the goals of the corporation. Ie. going for maximize profits. things being like china and driving wages down and making a race to the bottom, caring about profits and laying off people that have been with the companies for 20 + years, while CEO gets crazy severance packages even though they fucked up the company. I understand the arguments for pensions and increasing share price etc, but I like to pull the for the little guys.

Many employees dont report their businesses or companies breaking labour laws because they are afraid of losing their jobs.

[iEatClams]

Visually though, it pisses off taxpayers.

Amen.

[quasi]

i wish we were more "jack of all trades". some cities do a rotation, where you'll be working in the roads dept. for 3 months, then you work in the sewers dept for 3 months...then water...parks...etc. but for burnaby and a few others, we strictly stick to our own depts. i work in water, i have no rights to be touching anything sewer related or paving/sidewalks etc.
if my crew digs a hole and we hit a sewer line, our jobs shut down until a sewers crew can get there asap to repair the line and vice versa.

it is somewhat specialized work, water deals with chlorination, making the water safe and drinkable, were trained how to do it. sewers are all gravity fed and use special tools that water/road workers wouldnt have, and roads crews have steam rollers on trailers that they drag around.

but were all lazy city workers who just dick around until a watermain breaks and your out of water and we have to pull 18 hour shifts to fix it just so people can take a shower in time before they go to work, or a sewer main blows and your yard suddenly turns into a porta potty swamp :p

When you have a monopoly on the work and everything is essentially done at cost plus on the tax payers dime I can see why they don't like to see people standing around. That said I do get that maybe sometimes it might be unavoidable.

[Hondaracer]

my buddy works for Vancouver school board for the past 4 years or so, 2 incidents:

Firstly the VSB installed GPS devices much like this story after people in Burnaby were reporting Vancouver School Board vehicles sitting in Burnaby home driveways all day, same thing guys would just drive home and chill all day, take vehicle back at the end of the day

now Two "union" stories:

A) so my buddy is on the grounds crew, cuts grass etc. he was "done" his day by 10am and was just sitting in his car reading a book when he saw some of his buddies on the construction crew taking down/moving a small chain link fence, he hops out talks to them for a bit and decides he'll help them carry some of the chain link to the Truck hauling it away, shortly after the foreman shows up and TWEAKS on my buddy, SCREAMING "YOU DONT TAKE AWAY WORK FROM OTHER PEOPLE BLA BLA BLA" ok he learned a lesson

few months later in the rainy season him and his crew are at a school and across the street a storm drain is completely clogged with leaves etc. and the rain water has crept up over some guys lawn and it's started to go into this guys Garage, so my friend grabs a peice of rebar and walks through the puddle to the drain to attempt to unclog it to drain

same story, foreman fucking TWEAKS and says he's stealing work from the Vancouver road works crew and it's not his business if peoples property is ruined..

[Soundy]

few months later in the rainy season him and his crew are at a school and across the street a storm drain is completely clogged with leaves etc. and the rain water has crept up over some guys lawn and it's started to go into this guys Garage, so my friend grabs a peice of rebar and walks through the puddle to the drain to attempt to unclog it to drain

same story, foreman fucking TWEAKS and says he's stealing work from the Vancouver road works crew and it's not his business if peoples property is ruined..

Let's not forget the story of the elementary school kids who planted a garden in an unused bit of school property, then were told they weren't allowed to water it because that was the job of the union landscapers... landscapers who then never touched the garden, and the kids couldn't do anything but watch their garden die...

[westopher]

We have guys that specialize in certain areas, if they have nothing to do in those areas they help out in other areas or they go home.
And thats how any successful business controls labour. The problem I assume is that taxpayer funded work isn't profit driven, therefore if someone in the chain of command doesn't give a fuck, money will just be pissed away. Its bullshit because they think just because they have a budget, there is no need to ever come under it, even though obviously that money saved could be spent on other projects, or additional projects that benefit the taxpayer.

[Anjew]

my buddy works for Vancouver school board for the past 4 years or so, 2 incidents:

Firstly the VSB installed GPS devices much like this story after people in Burnaby were reporting Vancouver School Board vehicles sitting in Burnaby home driveways all day, same thing guys would just drive home and chill all day, take vehicle back at the end of the day

now Two "union" stories:

A) so my buddy is on the grounds crew, cuts grass etc. he was "done" his day by 10am and was just sitting in his car reading a book when he saw some of his buddies on the construction crew taking down/moving a small chain link fence, he hops out talks to them for a bit and decides he'll help them carry some of the chain link to the Truck hauling it away, shortly after the foreman shows up and TWEAKS on my buddy, SCREAMING "YOU DONT TAKE AWAY WORK FROM OTHER PEOPLE BLA BLA BLA" ok he learned a lesson

few months later in the rainy season him and his crew are at a school and across the street a storm drain is completely clogged with leaves etc. and the rain water has crept up over some guys lawn and it's started to go into this guys Garage, so my friend grabs a peice of rebar and walks through the puddle to the drain to attempt to unclog it to drain

same story, foreman fucking TWEAKS and says he's stealing work from the Vancouver road works crew and it's not his business if peoples property is ruined..

that does sounds negative but from what I understand liability is also a huge issue especially considering the more specialized jobs. If your friend were to get hurt from the chain link fence....

[Hondaracer]

that does sounds negative but from what I understand liability is also a huge issue especially considering the more specialized jobs. If your friend were to get hurt from the chain link fence....

while it could be true, i think that attitude is a part of what is wrong with city works like this