[PJ]

I was just thinking about this the other day when I was looking into a Ford Edge with a buddy, and thought it might make an interesting discussion topic. (Or maybe I'm just an idiot and am missing an obvious point.)

I don't want to turn this into a racial thing, but that's what it might come down to.

Take the Japanese car makes. They're known to be more reliable, but why exactly is that?

When it comes down to the bare engineering, it's all just moving parts. Are the Japanese using higher quality parts? Why can't the domestics use the same? And besides, aren't certain imports being made in North America anyways?

What seems to be the mentality that Germans use when building their cars is essentially, sacrifice some reliability for more luxury/performance. Which is, fair enough.

But you take the average American car and the average Japanese car, and it really makes you wonder.

The conclusion I kind of drew is that the Japanese take everything (engineering, quality of parts) into account for a well-balanced car. Where as the Americans make price a bigger priority and use the least expensive parts that meet code requirements.

Am I right? Wrong? What'chall think? :nyan: Discuss :nyan:

[Nlkko]

less parts to fail.
Posted via RS Mobile

[sonick]

Stemming further from that, it comes from the overall Japanese culture, social philosophy and organizational behaviour.

e.g.

Kaizen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaizen)
5S (methodology) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5S_%28methodology%29)

[asahai69]

have had a lot of american vehicles, and they were all pretty damn reliable.

[mos_skeeto]

I think plants in Canada, States, Mexico and elsewhere can make a high quality product... and I understand that everything is pretty much made in China and assembled... but I had very good luck with things made in Japan including my cameras and cars. My first car was a usdm Civic and I found that an RSX was built better. Fit and finish and from things like the sound the door makes when closed. Made in Japan isn't a deal breaker for me when I buy cars but it's a plus.

[cruz-in]

i think it come down to pure design + cost cutting on materials.

whether it be ford, toyota, honda, if you decide to cut costs on a poorly designed part, your going to increase failure rate.

Also , another factor would be how hard the car is pushed throughout its life.

[BEEB]

Quality Control

[FN-2199]

Quality Control

Hence what sonick said.


For the uneducated, these are just a few of their proven methods.

Stemming further from that, it comes from the overall Japanese culture, social philosophy and organizational behaviour.

e.g.

Kaizen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaizen)
5S (methodology) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5S_%28methodology%29)

[ilvtofu]

It seems like you're basing your thoughts merely off of public conception and not actual scientific research. The industry and the products are so different from those of the 80's/90's but unfortunately most car shoppers today still have biases that stem from that era of manufacturing.

I know a lot of car owners (non-enthusiast), who basically look at the issue like this: I have been driving hondas my whole life and have not had any abnormal problems with them, therefore Hondas are the best, or "Hondas are what you should buy". By doing so, they affect the market biases without any experience with any other products out there.

If you want to approach it scientifically, you can't make a general statement like "American cars are lower quality and use cheap parts which equates to an unreliable product" when in reality there are probably hundreds of thousands of american vehicles running reliably on the road.

Ultimately it is too hard to scientifically control and measure reliability/quality of the products on the market, and the reports that do come out every now and then don't ever tell the whole story. I feel that >90% of people I know are pretty happy with the newer cars that they own regardless of the country of origin etc.

[SpuGen]

http://www.dieselstation.com/wallpapers/albums/Mazda/RX7/Mazda-RX7-009.jpg


#WHATNOW

[twitchyzero]

agreed...I feel there's a difference between a Japanese car built in NA vs one built in Japan

As for americans...I think if you maintain it regularly it ain't so bad...dont know if that applies to euros though.

[PJ]

If you want to approach it scientifically, you can't make a general statement like "American cars are lower quality and use cheap parts which equates to an unreliable product" when in reality there are probably hundreds of thousands of american vehicles running reliably on the road.


I wasn't stating a fact, that's just the conclusion that formulated into my head, whether it's wrong or right. I agree with you that a lot of people have the mentality of "Hondas have never given me a problem, so I'm gonna stay with Honda forever." And hell, maybe that's the impression it laid onto me.

There are hundreds of thousand American vehicles running reliably, yes. But when you look at the surveys/research/whatever numbers as a whole, regardless of what the surveys were on, the Japanese are always above the domestics in terms of reliability. I mean, even if half of them were all based on empty facts, they all must be getting some sort of common factor. I'm just trying to break it down to the base of why the numbers are what they are.

I'm actually interested in a few different American cars at the moment, and even a couple Koreans, so I'm not by any means trying to bash... this was more out of interest, really.

[jlenko]

when you look at the surveys/research/whatever numbers as a whole, regardless of what the surveys were on, the Japanese are always above the domestics in terms of reliability.

Show us some numbers then.

Otherwise it's all in your head. Anything can, and will, break.

[twitchyzero]

Show us some numbers then.

Otherwise it's all in your head. Anything can, and will, break.

http://www.revscene.net/forums/679622-german-engines-not-good-you-think.html

and many others that generally have japanese coming out on top as well

[bloodmack]

you realize that mitsubishi is on that list as unreliable? And Ford is in the top 10 of reliable? lol

[Glove]

ya that whole bias thing is from long time ago,

american cars nowadays are pretty damn deliable, and SUPER easy to work on.

shit,

id work on a new domestic over a new honda any day of the week.

VW's and Audi's,

now theres a different story,

probably the worst built cars from when I was baby, to this day, still shit,

in terms of diy fixability, and reliablity, and cost to fix.

[PJ]

Show us some numbers then.



http://www.revscene.net/forums/679622-german-engines-not-good-you-think.html

Or google something along the lines of "top reliable cars" and you'll get more or less the same results.

Mind you, the results from these surveys are probably from older cars, so it's hard to say what has changed in the recent years. Especially with all the new crazy warranties and such.

A family member has an older Ford Edge, and he's had no problems with it. I personally LOVE the look of the newer Edge's.

[Gridlock]

One thing that is not touched upon here is legacy costs.

I read a report circa 2008, right around the meltdown of the US auto industry that domestic car manufacturers had about $2k per vehicle in legacy health and pension costs embedded in them. What that means is to make a car that sells for the same price with a Japanese manufacturer, they need to cut out 2000 worth of car, somewhere to make the same type of profit.

That's fucking huge.

So where does it come from? Well, the cheaper interior...and R+D...and anywhere else they can skimp and save, leading to complaints of: cheap interior...models that keep going year after year...no new technology..."feels cheap"

The second one is CARB. In the 70's the government mandated massive changes to the automotive industry as a result of the oil crisis. ALL of those changes favored Japanese manufacturers, who were already making small cars.

Now, people look back and say, "my how timely that Japan was making exactly what was needed. Boo hiss domestics..you make gas guzzlers!"

BUT...USDM were making what people wanted, until events outside their control made them instantly out of line with what people wanted to buy and the government quickly mandated changes in the industry, which resulted in quick changes in the product line of detuning their engines producing crap that didn't work right.

Same thing happened in the late 90's. USDM was making a fortune producing SUV's-and the same thing happened again. Quick change in buying habits and a quick change in regulations.

I'm not saying that none of it is their fault...a lot is. They *could* have been putting profits back into their small car lines and they *could* have been looking forward that, like history before, the good times aren't going to last indefinitely, but I don't think it was all their fault. If you wanted to hand your industry over to Japan, then the regulations that came out of Washington was a good way to do it.

With the current regulatory framework, its not even practical to build a small truck, or a station wagon. Thus...the Dakota, Ranger and S10 Sonoma are no more and there isn't a station wagon to be had. I can't remember the specifics but it relates to emissions vs. size/footprint of a vehicle classed as a car or truck in terms of the fleet of the maker. As if the amount of trucks you sell correlates to the cars you sell. The regulations are a f'ing mess.

[wingies]

less horsepower and torque

:troll:

[PJ]

I'm trying to find an article I read at work earlier while I was googling, but for the life of me, I cannot remember what site it was from.

Gist: It was an interview with an automotive engineer who worked for both GM and Honda.

At GM, they make a part as cheap as possible while still meeting code requirements. Theoretically speaking, it makes sense. Does the job, fits the design, so they don't bother going above and beyond. Fair enough. -1 degree or -50 degrees, the water's still frozen.
GM is reactive instead of proactive. Their way of thinking is "If this part fails, then it fails. If we get a lot of the same problems, then we'll switch to the next quality level up, and use that for the next design as well."

The engineer was surprised to find that Honda does the complete opposite.
Their way of thinking is "If we make the crankshaft stronger, it's more expensive, but that means smaller connecting rods are needed. Lighter connecting rods means smaller pistons can be used. Smaller pistons mean better throttle response, which means better gas mileage and less wear on cylinder walls, and so on"
Honda starts with a higher quality part, but in turn, cuts back on labor costs. I can't help but wonder if this trickles all the way down to the fact that American automotive workers are unionized.

[Yodamaster]

VW's and Audi's,

now theres a different story,

probably the worst built cars from when I was baby, to this day, still shit,

in terms of diy fixability, and reliablity, and cost to fix.

Maybe if you're talking about mid 90's onward, otherwise Volkswagens are probably the easiest things to fix since lawn mowers. And the parts are available for cheap too, you don't have to go to the dealership you know...

The interior in my mid 80's econo box Jetta are more comfortable than some new luxury cars I could mention, and you can get that sort of comfort for sub $3000 now.

The engines are great too, I don't know where people are getting the idea that Volkswagen engines are hard to fix at home. A head gasket change is a three hour job for the average guy.

The only parts I find frustrating on VW's are the electronics and the transmissions.

[hirevtuner]

Japanese ppl don't take shortcuts into designing and engineering vehicles and have a passion for what they love to do and always wanting to improve

[Graeme S]

Not sure about you guys, but there are other considerations as well for me.

My mom got a Mazda3 six years ago when it was time for her to get a new car. Why? Because it was built on the new EuroFocus platform (now WorldFocus) and the Eurofocus was an amazing frakkin' car. European small cars (whether they come from European brands or not) have typically been more reliable than not. Only now we are starting to get the European-styled and engineered cars here.

The issue with cars designed for the North American market is that price has generally been the one place that American marketing departments had decided they could beat the Japanese on. And as such, they were (to steal Jeremy Clarkson's words) "Engineered by GM's crack team of accountants!". What did this mean? Cheap, shitty materials. The same stereo on a Pontiac as a Cadillac. Now they're starting to wake up and realize that it's not price, it's value that people have been chasing.

I mean, let's look at the 2012 Civic. I mean, it just does not compare to anyone on the market. Seriously. It's a massively underfeatured car for its section. I'm sure it's engineered wonderfully, but still. Most cars have a 5-8 year powertrain warranty--many will now even have 10. My mom's new Ford (last spring?) came with a 10-year powertrain, 6 year bumper-to-bumper.

I remember my mom and the salesman and I were talking, and I realized that my mom was just about to buy a car the first year the remodel had taken place. "There is no more 'let's wait for them to iron out the kinks after that first year' like there used to be. You can buy bad cars now, sure. But they're not the lemons of yesteryear."

[CP.AR]

In the old days, American cars were engineered so that you would need to replace them every 3-4 years.

Fun thing to note though is that the Holdens (GM) and Fords here in Australia last forever according to the locals. Also keep in mind too that anything Honda or Toyota makes is a luxury item

[PJ]

W. Edwards Deming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming)

Apparently W. Edward Deming is partly responsible for the Japanese domination in quality control and production.

He worked with the Japanese and integrated his "Deming" philosophy into the Japanese "Kaizen" philosophy.

The Japanese put his ideas to work without question and were rewarded with high quality production at low price.

The funny part is, he's American. And when he approached the American car makers first, they brushed him off. :lawl:

[El Bastardo]

In the old days, American cars were engineered so that you would need to replace them every 3-4 years.

Fun thing to note though is that the Holdens (GM) and Fords here in Australia last forever according to the locals. Also keep in mind too that anything Honda or Toyota makes is a luxury item


I came in here to say almost exactly this. Engineered breakdown has been going on since the 70s because of the reliability of the cars from the 40s to the 60s (for the most part)

I can only hope that one day I'll see a Holden Ute show up on our shores rebadged as the new El Camino. Theres a reason they're so popular down there.

[Yodamaster]

In the old days, American cars were engineered so that you would need to replace them every 3-4 years.

Fun thing to note though is that the Holdens (GM) and Fords here in Australia last forever according to the locals. Also keep in mind too that anything Honda or Toyota makes is a luxury item


Are you saying that they aren't now? Or that it was simply happening a long time ago already?

If you were implying that they aren't, they definitely are. Though I would have to disagree with cars made before the 70's, cars before then usually lasted a long time.

[Graeme S]

Are you saying that they aren't now? Or that it was simply happening a long time ago already?

If you were implying that they aren't, they definitely are. Though I would have to disagree with cars made before the 70's, cars before then usually lasted a long time.
I would say they aren't being built like that now. When my mom ditched her Mazda after 5 years it still ran like a dream and was a beauty. My dad has (other than his 80s GM van) a Suzuki Aerio from...sometime in the last decade or more. Still runs like a dream.

I would, however, say that cars these days are being financed on a 3-5 year replacement scheme. Buying a new car is in some people's minds an alternative to paying for repairs: "If I keep this car, I may have to fix something that breaks, but if I finance a car for about the same amount of money, I'll get a better car and my cash flow is already set up for that kind of draw, so...what's to lose?"

[PJ]

Buying a new car is in some people's minds an alternative to paying for repairs: "If I keep this car, I may have to fix something that breaks, but if I finance a car for about the same amount of money, I'll get a better car and my cash flow is already set up for that kind of draw, so...what's to lose?"

Common mentality for consumers shopping for Germans too.

[CP.AR]

Are you saying that they aren't now? Or that it was simply happening a long time ago already?

If you were implying that they aren't, they definitely are. Though I would have to disagree with cars made before the 70's, cars before then usually lasted a long time.

not as much as the domestics of the 80s and 90s
:heckno:

[El Bastardo]

I once owned a Hyundai from the early 90s, the Stellar, which looked like an Audi of the era. It was the biggest POS I've ever owned. I'd gladly take a domestic over the horrible memories I had of owning that shitpile.

[dbaz]

quality control is huge in japan. toured a "toyota" factory in japan. the factories are toyota by name but are actually a separate business. toyota buys the cars from the factory granted they pass the all checks at the factory and then the checks by toyota. dunno if it works the same here. but they didnt show any worry about throwing out parts in front of us and deeming them unfit.

[ancient_510]

Axis powers invested heavily in tooling during World War 2.
During the immediate postwar period after global markets started to re-open, this idea of high quality German and Japanese goods became embedded in the general psyche.

I don't think it's really true anymore for cars with the very global nature of manufacturing. One thing I deal with regularly at work, bearings, it still is very true. Japanese and German sourced bearings last longer than their Chinese and American made counterparts. This isn't anecdotal, I have documentation.

I believe that simple devices which have been (basically) unchanged since the Axis' investment in superior tooling still are more reliable because of that investment.

What is it. 6 degrees of Wikipedia separation to Hitler?

[toyota86]

imo, talking about older cars

japanese cars...
they rust out before the engine and drive train fails

german cars...
the engine drive train fails before the body rusts out

american cars...
they get scrapped at the first signs of failure due to poor resale, hence not worth fixing

i think people rather have a rusty car that can get you to A to B than a clean chassis that doesn't run. perception is that japanese is more reliable. but it just seems like manufacturers put their priorities in different things.

[RRxtar]

United Auto Workers.