[dinosaur]

‘Canada’s smallest-ever condominiums’ start at 297 square feet in Whalley | Globalnews.ca (http://globalnews.ca/news/492182/canadas-smallest-ever-condominiums-start-at-297-square-feet-in-whalley/)

New Homes from $109,900! | Live at Balance (http://www.liveatbalance.ca/)

So taking the purchase price of $109,900 and doing a ROUGH mortgage payment estimation, you are looking at about $550.00\month.

I have 6 bachelor apartments at my buildings that rent from $650-720 that are roughly the same size...a little outdated, no dishwasher, and no laundry (an optional upgrade at Balance).

Definitively an investment worth considering, I think....

[LiquidTurbo]

Better than renting, if it's THAT cheap.
Posted via RS Mobile

[Mr.HappySilp]

Better than renting, if it's THAT cheap.
Posted via RS Mobile

Thats the start price. I say it is more closer to !20k to 130k range but still a good place. My mom show me the ads the other day. I was surprise how small it is.

[snails]

well considering im paying 600$ a month for a 500 square foot basement and will never have anything to show for it i see it as good value, would never consider a family there of course, but good for a single person or couple, im worried about resale, i cant imagine it ever being worth much even if the markets go up

[dinosaur]

It IS small, but like I said....my bachelors are just as small and I ALWAYS have people wanting them. As soon as I advertise them for rent, they are gone!

Single people are in desperate need for places that are under $750\month. And, if you are a single person, you really don't need a 1 bedroom apartment.

I think we are going to visit the presentation centre and see what type of rental restrictions there would be.

If you take the purchase price of $109,900 and drop a $40k down payment, you'd be looking at about a $320 monthly mortgage payment. I would imagine that strata would be $75-$125. There is the potential to be able to make about $300\month in rental revenue.

[dinosaur]

well considering im paying 600$ a month for a 500 square foot basement and will never have anything to show for it i see it as good value, would never consider a family there of course, but good for a single person or couple, im worried about resale, i cant imagine it ever being worth much even if the markets go up

I think conservatively if you are looking to re-sell in 5-10 years, it could go somewhere in the $140s? maybe?

[yray]

that's pretty big but in surrey :fuckthatshit:

definitely worth it in dtwn tho

[snails]

we tend to follow trends from japan and Europe, the world is getting more populated and more expensive, eventually this will be the norm, investing early in something like this seems like a good idea if you plan to stay in the lower mainland, with the progression of cities like Abbotsford for example its hard to consider living in Surrey for another decade if given the opportunity to live somewhere more affordable comes up.

[dinosaur]

Its in an up and coming area with tons of new development (shopping, restaurants, condos, and townhomes)...steps to the skytrain...a block from SFU Surrey....20 mins to Vancouver.

Quit shit talking Surrey. If you have never lived there OR frequently go there, how can you be so quick to judge??

[snails]

Its in an up and coming area with tons of new development (shopping, restaurants, condos, and townhomes)...steps to the skytrain...a block from SFU Surrey....20 mins to Vancouver.

Quit shit talking Surrey. If you have never lived there OR frequently go there, how can you be so quick to judge??


they are for sure cleaning up that area, it can be a mess sometimes, but with all the new development that area is cleaning up quick, i lived in Whalley for about 13 years, Guildford for about 3, Langley for 4 years and now back in surrey for the last 2-3, its not that bad. i would be more afraid to walk around some parts of Burnaby or van before i would be afraid anywhere in surrey lol... little bit off topic now but my 2 cents

[Hondaracer]

Myself and my parents have three rental units in and around king George, got them all below cost through developers and have been doing nothing but losing value since

Also the majority of the buildings are filled with degenerates who you couldn't pay me to live beside

With that said I live in surrey and love my area but the high volume building in that area isn't bringing in the the best crowd.
Posted via RS Mobile

[melloman]

Funny how this doesn't help the real estate market at all.

This is just a way that some smart people are going to get rich. With people not being able to afford bigger apartments, they make way smaller places and charge a slightly cheaper rate.

Through supply and demand, these prices will go up because demand is already crazy about them. Meaning these prices will get inflated, which inturn will just keep our housing prices just as high.

The only good thing here is, you can buy your 300sq. ft. condo now. Take 10 years to pay it off, then sell it and you'll have enough for a down payment on a 2 bedroom condo. :lawl:

[drunkrussian]

centrally located close to crack, heroin, meth - this place is a steal! And by that I mean you will get robbed
Posted via RS Mobile

[AAnthony]

-----

[knight604]

surrey? :fuckthatshit:

[Yodamaster]

So this is what they call a home nowadays... pathetic.

[fliptuner]

Whalley is still the shittiest part of Surrey.

New stores, new condos, UniverCity, so what? The majority of the people living there are still the same and the cost of property only facilitates it.

Sure the area is starting to look nicer but it doesn't necessarily change who lives there.

[dinosaur]

Owners of these condos need to stop renting to people on social assistance. To do this, they need to charge $800+month. This is how New West is slowly getting rid of the less than desirables.

From what I understand through dealing with this, welfare\disability\ministry of housing, etc will not give fund people where rent is $800 or more\month.

As soon as we brought our rents to $800+ we automatically cut all those people out. Works for me.


Or, for those bitching about the cheap prices...you can go ahead and spend $400k + $400 strata for a condo and live house-poor for the rest of your life.

[El Bastardo]

Quit shit talking Surrey. If you have never lived there OR frequently go there, how can you be so quick to judge??

FUCK SURREY

[knight604]

FUCK SURREY

FUCK SLURREY

[BBMme]

tempting, but ya surrey hmmmm and now they have the toll......

[fliptuner]

Charge $800/month for a shoebox in an area where places that are twice as big and cheaper are readily available.....because people love paying mortgages on empty properties.

[smarv]

I like the idea of smaller and more affordable housing. For someone like myself who works goes to school and is constantly out I'm pretty much never home but I still need a place to store my clothes, shower and sleep. But the fact that I would have to live around the riff-raff of gateway station Surrey scares me a little. Now if someone could develop something like this on a large scale somewhere more central in vancouver with a similar price point I would be all over it. I think this idea is also needed around Universities so by the time a student finishes his undergrad he will also have payed off half his mortgage instead of throwing it away to dorm rentals and getting nothing back.

[fliptuner]

Now if someone could develop something like this on a large scale somewhere more central in vancouver with a similar price point I would be all over it.

There are similar properties in Vancouver (mostly factory/industrial conversions) but nowhere near the price. Come on man, you can't compare Van prices to Surrey. You gotta pay to play.

[FerrariEnzo]

as long as it has all the basics (especially wash/dryer) then its not a bad price..
but too far for me to travel to work.. commute to Richmond would be a bitch especially during rush hour...

[Gridlock]

Charge $800/month for a shoebox in an area where places that are twice as big and cheaper are readily available.....because people love paying mortgages on empty properties.

That's not what she was saying. In order to completely cut out the social assistance avenue, you need to go above 8 bills.

Obviously, you wouldn't be able to do that on these micro suites.

A tenant of mine moved over there into a 1 bed condo near gateway station for 900. Nicely finished, but I'd presume, small.

I'm assuming that these type suites, of course all conjecture because we don't even know if there are rental restrictions, would probably rent in the 650ish area, fully equipped. If people want it cheaper, they can save up and buy.

[hotjoint]

ignorant people :lol

[Hondaracer]

Own in both "The Gruv" and Evo, $950-$1100 month per rent and both buildings are filled with drug dealers and escorts so that $900 theory kinda goes out the window.

Not to mention we have close connections to multiple members on the strata council so we see the issues directly arising with the buildings

What's the saying about putting lipstick on a pig?
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[bcedhk]

Good idea, shit location.

[Gridlock]

Own in both "The Gruv" and Evo, $950-$1100 month per rent and both buildings are filled with drug dealers and escorts so that $900 theory kinda goes out the window.

Not to mention we have close connections to multiple members on the strata council so we see the issues directly arising with the buildings

What's the saying about putting lipstick on a pig?
Posted via RS Mobile

I re-did 2 separate apartments in Infinity tower.

The one was owned as a rental by a regular client of mine. Tenant trashed it. I got fired from the job for being too expensive, then got rehired at more money to go and fix it..but anyway.

New tenant is in the apartment, and something was "off" she was nice and all. On the phone a fuckload, with short conversations. Didn't really care.

Was working with my bro-in-law, and I just looked at him and said, "she's a hooker". Zero facts to back it up...nothing.

Client tells me a few months later...yup...escort. Those buildings are shitty. They look worn. I did one of the apartments about a year after occupancy and then the other about 3 years....and the building communal areas just looked bad. No one gives a fuck.

And on the 900 rent...I don't know why she'd lie. She was done with my place, and all. Maybe she found a dumb landlord.

[geeknerd]

I think this is a great price for what it offers.

Although it was a little bit bigger(than the one in the picture), I used to live in a similar officetel(studio) in Korea and it never felt inadequate.

Just quickly thinking back on it, couple inconveniences i experienced were:
No dryer(option)
Cooking smells up the entire house
Soundproofing sucks shit. I would think especially more for space efficient buildings like this.

Other than that, it was great for what it is.

I wasn't home for most of the time anyways and the article points that out.
Its for the next generation, their dining rooms are restaurants(even if thats mcdonalds), not the living room.

Its targeted to 'those' people and it is definitely affordable for them.

If i was making 2k/mo, living on rent, who wouldn't buy this?

However the low price of these units makes me think more people would be interested in buying them and eventually becoming another rent unit building. A lot of people have 100k to throw around in vancouver imo.

I have no knowledge in real estate.

[Hondaracer]

I re-did 2 separate apartments in Infinity tower.

The one was owned as a rental by a regular client of mine. Tenant trashed it. I got fired from the job for being too expensive, then got rehired at more money to go and fix it..but anyway.

New tenant is in the apartment, and something was "off" she was nice and all. On the phone a fuckload, with short conversations. Didn't really care.

Was working with my bro-in-law, and I just looked at him and said, "she's a hooker". Zero facts to back it up...nothing.

Client tells me a few months later...yup...escort. Those buildings are shitty. They look worn. I did one of the apartments about a year after occupancy and then the other about 3 years....and the building communal areas just looked bad. No one gives a fuck.

And on the 900 rent...I don't know why she'd lie. She was done with my place, and all. Maybe she found a dumb landlord.

Infinity towers are a gong show but like any high rise it's all about who your surrounding neighbors are. It would be my worst nightmare to move into a place and go to sleep
And hear music playing till 4 am
Posted via RS Mobile

[falcon]

These are definatley going to become more common. In Germany I lived in an apartment around the same size with 400euro/month rent. It was livable, lay out was nice. And the town was covered in these small apartments. Very normal there. Not bad for someone wanting to invest a bit of money, at $109,000 they are only going to go up in value.

[AAnthony]

-----

[dinosaur]

These are definatley going to become more common. In Germany I lived in an apartment around the same size with 400euro/month rent. It was livable, lay out was nice. And the town was covered in these small apartments. Very normal there. Not bad for someone wanting to invest a bit of money, at $109,000 they are only going to go up in value.

I agree. I really think this is going to be a popular trend. Places this small are VERY common in Europe and I like the trend.

I watch those house-buying shows on HGTV and am always blown away when a 3 member family thinks a 5000 sq. ft. house is TOO SMALL to raise a family in. I couldn't imagine living in a space that big....you could go for weeks without even going into certain rooms. crazy.

[Spoon]

Too bad it's not more central. Can definitely see the concept working out with the number of 30k millionaires we see around town.

[iEatClams]

‘Canada’s smallest-ever condominiums’ start at 297 square feet in Whalley | Globalnews.ca (http://globalnews.ca/news/492182/canadas-smallest-ever-condominiums-start-at-297-square-feet-in-whalley/)

New Homes from $109,900! | Live at Balance (http://www.liveatbalance.ca/)

So taking the purchase price of $109,900 and doing a ROUGH mortgage payment estimation, you are looking at about $550.00\month.

I have 6 bachelor apartments at my buildings that rent from $650-720 that are roughly the same size...a little outdated, no dishwasher, and no laundry (an optional upgrade at Balance).

Definitively an investment worth considering, I think....

even if you're slightly cashflow positive or neutral after considering property taxes and strata fees etc.

it's important to remember the risks involved:
what happens if there is a correction in the market and that property is now worth 25% less (say another recession hits). you just lost $25,000! it will take years of "positive cash flow" to make up for the $25K you just lost.

Also, what about other condos propping up in the area and which increases the supply of condos and therefore decreases your rental rate.

Lastly, what happens if mortage rates increase after 5 years?, you may not be cash flow positive anymore.

[snails]

even if you're slightly cashflow positive or neutral after considering property taxes and strata fees etc.

it's important to remember the risks involved:
what happens if there is a correction in the market and that property is now worth 25% less (say another recession hits). you just lost $25,000! it will take years of "positive cash flow" to make up for the $25K you just lost.

Also, what about other condos propping up in the area and which increases the supply of condos and therefore decreases your rental rate.

Lastly, what happens if mortage rates increase after 5 years?, you may not be cash flow positive anymore.

everything you just posted applies to anyone looking to buy a property/condo... not just these complexes, its the risk of buying, but look at history, shit just gets more expensive as population rises.. sure it might temporarily go down, but its bound to go up again

[dinosaur]

even if you're slightly cashflow positive or neutral after considering property taxes and strata fees etc.

it's important to remember the risks involved:
what happens if there is a correction in the market and that property is now worth 25% less (say another recession hits). you just lost $25,000! it will take years of "positive cash flow" to make up for the $25K you just lost.

Also, what about other condos propping up in the area and which increases the supply of condos and therefore decreases your rental rate.

Lastly, what happens if mortage rates increase after 5 years?, you may not be cash flow positive anymore.

Don't get me wrong, there can be and are a lot of negatives to having an investment property.

I own property in Langley that I have rented out and fortunately\unfortunately it is neutral cashflow. I bought in 2008 right before the huge dip in real estate so it has not increased equity as I would have like. My rate is OK but I am hoping when I re-new next year I'll be able to get .5-1% lower which will help me move into a positive situation. The area I bought in has ballooned with development so the market is currently saturated and I have had some issue with tenants a few years ago.

Gone are the days of flipping and make quick money. I don't plan on selling my investment for 10....15 years possibly. Will I make as much as I want? HELL NO! Those days are done...but I will make enough to be okay with it.

In specific regards to this condo in Surrey...I am some-what interested. Will need to discuss the details and crunch some numbers. It may be worth it...it may not.

[GLOW]

as long as it has all the basics (especially wash/dryer) then its not a bad price..


if i remember reading the article in the paper correctly, they said that everything that made it functional for that space - the appliances fit for the space - were extra options?

if that's the case that can add on a few extra thousand dollars for a fitted out unit?

[MindBomber]

I think conservatively if you are looking to re-sell in 5-10 years, it could go somewhere in the $140s? maybe?

To begin, I appreciate your and Gridlock's insights on the rental market. I wouldn't expect bachelors to rent out quickly or readily, and the knowledge that they do makes these properties much more interesting from an investment perspective.

I'm very hesitant to agree on the quoted point, however, I think there's a significant likelihood these properties will decline in value over a 10 year cycle. I know there are similar apartments in Abbotsford, which is also a rapidly growing and improving community. Those apartments listed new at $125k four years ago and currently I see one listed for $97k, so the owner is easily taking a $30k hit after realtor commission. The building allows rentals and similar units list for about $825/month, so after strata and taxes, they're cash flowing about $100/month. That puts the owner at a $26k loss. I think these apartments will fair better, because the location is closer to transitioning from "up and coming" to "a place to be" but still, I see a probable loss not gains.

[dinosaur]

To begin, I appreciate your and Gridlock's insights on the rental market. I wouldn't expect bachelors to rent out quickly or readily, and the knowledge that they do makes these properties much more interesting from an investment perspective.

I'm very hesitant to agree on the quoted point, however, I think there's a significant likelihood these properties will decline in value over a 10 year cycle. I know there are similar apartments in Abbotsford, which is also a rapidly growing and improving community. Those apartments listed new at $125k four years ago and currently I see one listed for $97k, so the owner is easily taking a $30k hit after realtor commission. The building allows rentals and similar units list for about $825/month, so after strata and taxes, they're cash flowing about $100/month. That puts the owner at a $26k loss. I think these apartments will fair better, because the location is closer to transitioning from "up and coming" to "a place to be" but still, I see a probable loss not gains.

Yeah, I could see that. TBH, I don't have a lot of understanding in predicting how the real estate market go in regards to condos specifically like these. I would be hesitant to buy with a quick exit strategy and a condo like this may be worth to hang onto for a very long time or potentially pass onto my kids.

We are always looking at condos, etc to buy for investment reasons and it is difficult unless you have a 100k+ down payment to even become revenue neutral when renting them out and even then, you maybe not be able to. Between strata and mortgage, it is not worth it. The only thing I like about these is that with only a 20% down payment there is a good chance we would be able to rent it out without posting a monthly loss.

As for selling? You are right...that could be a huge issue.

[dinosaur]

if i remember reading the article in the paper correctly, they said that everything that made it functional for that space - the appliances fit for the space - were extra options?

if that's the case that can add on a few extra thousand dollars for a fitted out unit?

From what I read on the website...all appliances are included except the washer\dryer.

[Phil@rise]

I didnt even know it was legal to have a place that small.

[El Bastardo]

When did we start thinking that spending 100k on a box was acceptable? If this was in a place like downtown or NYC or somewhere that mattered, sure, sacrificing living space for relatively cheap apartments would be ok....
...but this isn't. This is Surrey.... B.C.'s second biggest "city" and first biggest shithole.

To be honest, I don't even expect that the developer really cares about the building or the community. Hes using this development as an example to prove the profitability of his talents to investors. He builds a cheap building, sells it out quickly, and gets decent press and even bigger buzz about it.

Expect that, in a few years time when house prices continue to climb, he'll open a similar type of development closer to a place that matters (perhaps in Richmond or closer to downtown) with a much higher price which they'll justify by saying "Well, we opened a low-cost development in Surrey but you can't take the Surrey out of Surrey so we have to price out the trash on this one".

He probably gets some sort of incentive for creating "low cost" housing for the people who can't afford a $649,000 East Vancouver crackshack. He probably uses cheaper materials because they're intended for "low cost" housing (so he can justify barely meeting building code). And he'll probably build it in a currently distressed area (as he did in Whalley) where he gets the land for a song because hes set a precedent for doing so. All of this will turn out to be a much greater ROI for him on his next development.

Hes playing the long game and I have to respect that.


That being said, I'd buy into Sequel138 long before this one.

[StylinRed]

They should be $80k and less and larger. Low Income housing in Whalley makes sense that is in Surrey since they've got the property for it

[Redlines_Daily]

I really hope these aren't bought up by property investors, I would hate to see these things being flipped or rented out. Let the lower income people who actually want to live in them have a chance at owning a home. It's a neat idea, seem a bit overpriced considering the area though.

[El Bastardo]

I think this will absolutely be bought out by investors, especially young investors who are looking for a low-cost initial real-estate investment. Their inexperience will lead them to rent to the first person who comes along (to ensure that they immediately defer their out of pocket costs) or have a rental service who really doesn't care find a tenant.

This building will become an armpit

[CharlesInCharge]

If one was going to buy this place as a temporary apartment in life, why not save yourself years of work... including the monthly strata fees and taxes, and buy a cheap used school bus for 10k for the same space and convert it to an RV.

[rb]

Paying $367/sq ft in Whalley is a good investment?

If anyone thinks this is a good investment, I have some waterfront property in Phoenix that I can sell you for cheap

[quasi]

If one was going to buy this place as a temporary apartment in life, why not save yourself years of work... including the monthly strata fees and taxes, and buy a cheap used school bus for 10k for the same space and convert it to an RV.

That's a great fucking idea, you could drive it up to Yellowstone and do a radio show from there.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mao227Olh91rtc8tfo2_1280.jpg

[dinosaur]

Well, not everyone can live at home forever and these places will appeal to single people wanting to get into the market but don't want to be house poor.

Not everyone wants to live in Vancouver or Richmond because the majority of people don't work in Vancouver or Richmond. If I was young, single, and only making $20\hour...this would be a good opportunity.

[Great68]

Hamster cages!

Where's the running wheel?

[Hondaracer]

Ill live in one of these before I think of moving to Richmond.
Posted via RS Mobile

[Gridlock]

I think this will absolutely be bought out by investors, especially young investors who are looking for a low-cost initial real-estate investment. Their inexperience will lead them to rent to the first person who comes along (to ensure that they immediately defer their out of pocket costs) or have a rental service who really doesn't care find a tenant.

This building will become an armpit

This would be my fear. I would like to see something like this as being rental restricted right from the start. Keeping it owner occupied avoids a LOT of problems. Keeps it affordable too.

I have come into partial ownership of a rental restricted condo and it fucking sucks that I can't rent it out.

[Gridlock]

If one was going to buy this place as a temporary apartment in life, why not save yourself years of work... including the monthly strata fees and taxes, and buy a cheap used school bus for 10k for the same space and convert it to an RV.

Another winning post.

Are we looking for a fancier answer than, "I don't want to shit in the woods and shower in a stream"?

[Razor Ramon HG]

Seems similar to the "one room" housing concept here in Korea.

Just one giant ass room with a bathroom and laundry room.

I could definitely live like that in Surrey, but like AAnthony said, at this price.. "I can't help but think what kind of hoodrats would live next to me."

[4444]

Better than renting, if it's THAT cheap.
Posted via RS Mobile

sorry to have to fail you and dinosour, as you two usually give some really good commentary, but i would suggest these are not a good buy

their so niche, they will never be an easy sell, when interest rates go up, that mortgage payment will go up too - rent will not, it will go up with inflation (there abouts)

these units will trap people who perhaps need to be mobile to find work if they are unskilled and lose their jobs - owning a place ties you down, that is not always a good thing.

there are a million reasons why i hate the idea of these condos - if they were rentals at super cheap rates, i would be all for them, instead it is allowing people who cannot afford to tie themselves to a significant amount of debt to do just that. i fear people will be financially hurt by buying these kinds of properties.

[falcon]

Lets be real. They aren't exactly going after the type of people on this site who blow silly money on $5000 Honda Civics. They're going after people who want to build equity each month instead of paying into someone elses, while staying at/near the same monthly price. The location is great, Skytrain/Surrey Central bus loop close by, Putullo, soon to be finished South Fraser perimeter road etc. Surrey Central mall is very nice these days as well.

Unless you've actually LIVED in a place like this, your arguments are invalid. Mine was 25 square meters with half of the room having a slanted roof. I did not have a murphy bed (queen) and never really felt cramped. If anything it taught me how to live within my means more and not put so much value on "stuff." Since coming home back to my parents place I have a lot less clothing (but wear each thing more regularly), am much cleaner and value space much more. Most of my time is spent at home watching TV for a bit, making dinner or sleeping. The rest of the time I am out with friends or at school/work.

And lastly, again... if you live west of the Fraser your comments and opinions on Surrey/Whalley don't matter. Surrey is a great place to live, I've been here all my life. The Surrey debate will never end, this I know.. but there are many places worse than here in other areas of the Lower Mainland where I wouldn't feel safe walking around at night alone. And I'm 25, 6' 190lbs and can hold my own (heck I did grow up in "Surrey" afterall :P)

[4444]

Lets be real. They aren't exactly going after the type of people on this site who blow silly money on $5000 Honda Civics. They're going after people who want to build equity each month instead of paying into someone elses, while staying at/near the same monthly price. The location is great, Skytrain/Surrey Central bus loop close by, Putullo, soon to be finished South Fraser perimeter road etc. Surrey Central mall is very nice these days as well.

Unless you've actually LIVED in a place like this, your arguments are invalid. Mine was 25 square meters with half of the room having a slanted roof. I did not have a murphy bed (queen) and never really felt cramped. If anything it taught me how to live within my means more and not put so much value on "stuff." Since coming home back to my parents place I have a lot less clothing (but wear each thing more regularly), am much cleaner and value space much more. Most of my time is spent at home watching TV for a bit, making dinner or sleeping. The rest of the time I am out with friends or at school/work.

And lastly, again... if you live west of the Fraser your comments and opinions on Surrey/Whalley don't matter. Surrey is a great place to live, I've been here all my life. The Surrey debate will never end, this I know.. but there are many places worse than here in other areas of the Lower Mainland where I wouldn't feel safe walking around at night alone. And I'm 25, 6' 190lbs and can hold my own (heck I did grow up in "Surrey" afterall :P)

great point on equity, EXCEPT that because these places are so small, i fear that the resale market will be almost non existent and thus if you spend $100-200K on one of these places (not sure how much a loaded one is with all the options, sounds like i am talking about a car), you will never be able to recoup that money.

buying a normal home or condo means you are buying into a market of proven size and demand - this is new and risky here.

in seoul, tokyo, new york, they have done these due to actual space and demand constraints. here i really do not think that applies.

also, and i know we have done this a million times, but when prices come down here (which they are doing now and will continue to do so) that $120K or whatever it ends up costing could have bought you a lot more in 5 years...

i just fear for the people who end up buying these, as they are making a brand new class of owner which has a market which could be very small and very erratic!

[dinosaur]

sorry to have to fail you and dinosour, as you two usually give some really good commentary, but i would suggest these are not a good buy

their so niche, they will never be an easy sell, when interest rates go up, that mortgage payment will go up too - rent will not, it will go up with inflation (there abouts)

these units will trap people who perhaps need to be mobile to find work if they are unskilled and lose their jobs - owning a place ties you down, that is not always a good thing.

there are a million reasons why i hate the idea of these condos - if they were rentals at super cheap rates, i would be all for them, instead it is allowing people who cannot afford to tie themselves to a significant amount of debt to do just that. i fear people will be financially hurt by buying these kinds of properties.

I understand what you are saying.

In reality, there is little to no difference between someone who makes $17\hour buying a $110k condo than someone who makes $25\hour buying a $250k condo.

From what I gather (from previous random posts) you are involved in real estate...do you think if these developments become more common would it, in the future, be easier to sell?

Condos have seem to become smaller and smaller. I lived in a privately owned 2 bedroom condo that was 1200 sq ft....was built in 1999-ish. Today, it seem most new 2 bedroom condos are around 800 sq feet. I have noticed the same with 1 beds (were 800 now 550 sq ft).

What do you think of buy a unit like this to use only as a rental property? (ie: the investor would not struggle to make the mortgage payment).

[falcon]

They didn't do it for space where I lived in Germany. My town was nestled in a little valley between with hundreds of KMS of land surrounding it. They built them because people don't NEED so much space.

Maybe they don't go up in value... maybe they do. Either way, you're putting money into something you own. I'm a big advocate of renting, but with these starting to pop up that might change my mind a bit. That being said, I'll never live in one because I need a workshop but there are many people these are perfect for. I'd rather live in one of these for $500 than a run down 20 year old basement suite that is only slightly bigger, dark and dank.

[4444]

I understand what you are saying.

In reality, there is little to no difference between someone who makes $17\hour buying a $110k condo than someone who makes $25\hour buying a $250k condo.

From what I gather (from previous random posts) you are involved in real estate...do you think if these developments become more common would it, in the future, be easier to sell?

Condos have seem to become smaller and smaller. I lived in a privately owned 2 bedroom condo that was 1200 sq ft....was built in 1999-ish. Today, it seem most new 2 bedroom condos are around 800 sq feet. I have noticed the same with 1 beds (were 800 now 550 sq ft).

What do you think of buy a unit like this to use only as a rental property? (ie: the investor would not struggle to make the mortgage payment).

i could write a book on teh subject, but will try to keep it short

sizes have gone down so as to maximize profits, city taxes on new builds are ridiculous, construction companies are getting greedy - yes density is on the up to. i live downtown is a pretty big place, you would never catch me in anything smaller - most people do not have that problem, but there is a limit

also, lifestyles are getting more simple with respect to stuff - before we had desktops, now we have ipads... we are a more efficient race now than 20 years ago, but again, there is a limit... again, in 2000 a condo could be had for $200K, now that same condo is $500k - huge incentive for buyers to buy small, and builders to build more (each smaller) in the same space - we will go back down to that $200K-$250K level (inflation adjusted)

if supply of micro condos goes up, my arguement on lack of market decreases - but do you really want to be a first adopter and take all that risk

as for renting out, well, maybe you could, but renting out for $400 or $500 probably wouldnt net you much income and your risk is through the roof. to me there is a minimum rent i would want to charge in any of my places to avoid douche bags tenants - as such as a real estate investor i wouldnt want that risk

it always comes down to the question of whether my money is being put to work as best it possibly can be - with these micro condos, i think you could do a lot better.

i would also never buy a new condo, i would actually never buy a condo, but that is a different story...

[nabs]

I was actually looking into these, in an investment point of view.

[vitaminG]

Balance buyers will need incomes of at least $22,000; people making $17 an hour and up

am i the only one who doesnt think this makes sense? $17/hr is over 35k annually pretax, and you dont pay much tax at $17/hr

[LiquidTurbo]

sorry to have to fail you and dinosour, as you two usually give some really good commentary, but i would suggest these are not a good buy

their so niche, they will never be an easy sell, when interest rates go up, that mortgage payment will go up too - rent will not, it will go up with inflation (there abouts)

these units will trap people who perhaps need to be mobile to find work if they are unskilled and lose their jobs - owning a place ties you down, that is not always a good thing.

there are a million reasons why i hate the idea of these condos - if they were rentals at super cheap rates, i would be all for them, instead it is allowing people who cannot afford to tie themselves to a significant amount of debt to do just that. i fear people will be financially hurt by buying these kinds of properties.

Perhaps. You don't think building equity is possible for these units?

For example, yuppies picks up the place, lives in it, the kind of person who's rarely at home and just needs a place to sleep. etc.

[punkwax]

Man.. my home theatre project is 289 sq ft... could not image trying to squeeze a home into that space.. :fulloffuck:

[LiquidTurbo]

Can't be as bad as hong kong..

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02489/hong-kong-4_2489579k.jpg

Christ.

[Excelsis]

Owners of these condos need to stop renting to people on social assistance. To do this, they need to charge $800+month. This is how New West is slowly getting rid of the less than desirables.

From what I understand through dealing with this, welfare\disability\ministry of housing, etc will not give fund people where rent is $800 or more\month.

As soon as we brought our rents to $800+ we automatically cut all those people out. Works for me.


Or, for those bitching about the cheap prices...you can go ahead and spend $400k + $400 strata for a condo and live house-poor for the rest of your life.

you can get decent houses for a lower price in the us, investment properties there are more worthwhile..

[dinosaur]

you can get decent houses for a lower price in the us, investment properties there are more worthwhile..

I'd rather keep a closer eye on my investment. Too many variables for me to invest in american property at this time.

Gridlock and I live in a very different situation than most...we are able to keep our overall living cost very low which can allow us to buy properties and rent them out. I found these apartments intriguing...

[drunkrussian]

lol all u ppl saying "don't judge" whalley and this and that and failing people for dissing surrey

-high crime rate
-shitty suburb
-far away from everything
-highest % of douchebag gangsters
-highest % of white trash crackheads and hobos

if u work in surrey, great location for you. Otherwise whether you're single or trying to start a family, surrey is shit. people who live there live there for the lower cost housing, which is due to the fact that it's a shithole. People don't plan on getting rich and staying in surrey.

Let's be real people...if you're from surrey and proud, that's fine - i'm from russia, we're proud of a shithole too.

[LiquidTurbo]

lol all u ppl saying "don't judge" whalley and this and that

-highest crime rate
-shitty suburb
-far away from everything
-highest % of douchebag gangsters
-highest % of white trash crackheads and hobos

if u live in surrey, great. If you work for the government great. Otherwise whether you're single or trying to start a family, surrey is shit. get over it, you're entitled to like surrey or be proud of it if you want, but you're proud of a shithole. nothing wrong with that - i'm from russia, we're proud of a shithole too. Get over it.

Yeah, way to judge an entire municipality bc of one area.

Is Vancouver shit because of all the crackheads in the DTES? Grow up.

Plenty of nice areas, multimillion dollars home in Panorama Ridge, South Surrey, neighbourhoods nears Barnston Island, etc.

[dinosaur]

-far away from everything


like?

[rsx]

It probably makes more sense to buy a piece of empty land with friends and build on that. just a huge rectangular cement building and have a minimalist style.

[Razor Ramon HG]

Although it's in Whalley, it's still fairly close to the skytrain.. I can't say how safe it is around there at night though, which I'm sure will put off many potential homeowners.

If they start to build some of these in the future, I'm definitely buying one when I move out. I don't require a lot of space, so places like these are perfect. Of course, once when you get married, that's a whole different story.

[4444]

Perhaps. You don't think building equity is possible for these units?

For example, yuppies picks up the place, lives in it, the kind of person who's rarely at home and just needs a place to sleep. etc.

I can only speak for me, and I'd never buy into a place like that, I generally could not see anyone earning more than $35k living in a place like that, I just think the rental comparison In a better location would win out, or perhaps getting a room mate (most of us know someone they could room with, etc)

I think the big problem is anyone who sees their income growing above the rate of inflation wouldn't buy a place like this, they'd rent and buy a more "normal" place when they can afford that - but I could be wrong, a lot of "smart" people make very illogical decisions when it comes to finances...

Time will tell... Definitely an interesting discussion, as this is a new way of potentially living

[iEatClams]

am i the only one who doesnt think this makes sense? $17/hr is over 35k annually pretax, and you dont pay much tax at $17/hr

Coming from a person that works in an RE related industry, I'm sure just on pure marketing and hype that there will be some buyers. One segment that I am concerned for are the young buyers who want to move out and want to own their own home, making $17 /hr. I wonder how many of these people have stable income and adequate savings if they end up losing their jobs. They are going to buy these condos and discover the risks of being a homeowner in a market with a high possibility of RE prices going down.

When they lose their job, they wont have any savings and may be forced to liquidate, only to find that their home may be worth less and after realtor fees and penalties, it just becomes a bad investment.

People feel like they need to own their own home, but there's nothing wrong with renting.

[dinosaur]

Coming from a person that works in an RE related industry, I'm sure just on pure marketing and hype that there will be some buyers. One segment that I am concerned for are the young buyers who want to move out and want to own their own home, making $17 /hr. I wonder how many of these people have stable income and adequate savings if they end up losing their jobs. They are going to buy these condos and discover the risks of being a homeowner in a market with a high possibility of RE prices going down.

When they lose their job, they wont have any savings and may be forced to liquidate, only to find that their home may be worth less and after realtor fees and penalties, it just becomes a bad investment.

People feel like they need to own their own home, but there's nothing wrong with renting.

This is very true, however I think this could apply to anyone....doesn't just have to be a person making $17\hour. Someone making $50\hour living in a $400k condo takes the same risk....the only difference is getting another job at $15-17\hour COULD be easier than securing another $50\hour job.The ratio is essentially the same. And, coming up with a $500 mortgage payment is A LOT easier than coming up with a $2000 payment.

Also, you are right! There is NOTHING wrong with renting....people really need to start thinking this way. We need to stop thinking like generations before us where people thought owning real estate equated success.

[minoru_tanaka]

Perhaps. You don't think building equity is possible for these units?

For example, yuppies picks up the place, lives in it, the kind of person who's rarely at home and just needs a place to sleep. etc.


Yuppies living in Whalley? Please look up the word. Last place a yuppie would live

[Mike Oxbig]

Surrey are for people who can't afford to live in Vancouver. That's why there are no china mainlanders buying homes in Surrey, even if they do they will get laughed at for being cheap. A brown friend once told me, there are a lot of brown people in Surrey because you pay the least amount for the large houses compare to Vancouver. :fuckthatshit:

[twitchyzero]

that's pretty big but in surrey :fuckthatshit:

definitely worth it in dtwn tho

lay away the fails but I agree with this
if you are making a shoebox might as well put it in dt
this isn't Hong Kong where you need sucha drastic living space just for the suburbs

[AWDTurboLuvr]

Yeah, I lived in small place like the one posted here, in Amsterdam (only for a 1.5 months) and it's definitely doable. It's common in places like that because it's part of the culture and unfortunately, that's not pervasive here.

As far as this being an investment, there are too many risks involved with such a niche condo. There is an oversupply of condos already and with these being at the smallest end of the spectrum, a quickly cooling market and not being in the most desirable neighbourhood (I didn't say not safe or decent, just from a purely RE investment POV, this area doesn't have the pull to draw the most desirable tenants in), I wouldn't recommend this as a place to put money and expect it to grow.

The price in 10 years will at best, slightly outpace inflation, and at worst, lose ~15-20% of it's value. For $40K, there are better investment vehicles out there.

How people perceive owning a home as success is only one part of the problem in today's reality. More importantly is that people need to shed the idea that owning a home as a way to fund your savings and retirement. With the CRA starting to come down on people who flip RE in Canada and/or buy condos with only the intention of it being an investment, that only accelerates the cooling of condo investors and buyers.

[dinosaur]

Surrey are for people who can't afford to live in Vancouver. That's why there are no china mainlanders buying homes in Surrey, even if they do they will get laughed at for being cheap. A brown friend once told me, there are a lot of brown people in Surrey because you pay the least amount for the large houses compare to Vancouver. :fuckthatshit:

Wrong. Surrey is for people who don't want to be house-poor, get more for their money, and who don't want the congestion of Vancouver.

I don't give a shit what 'mainlanders' think.

[punkwax]

Surrey are for people who can't afford to live in Vancouver. That's why there are no china mainlanders buying homes in Surrey, even if they do they will get laughed at for being cheap. A brown friend once told me, there are a lot of brown people in Surrey because you pay the least amount for the large houses compare to Vancouver. :fuckthatshit:

O rly?

5 homes on my street have been sold in the past 3.5 years, 4 of them have Chinese families living in them.

[hotjoint]

I like how 1/2 this thread is actually about the topic, the other 1/2 is just about bashing Surrey. Like I said, ignorant people :lol

[AWDTurboLuvr]

I like how 1/2 this thread is actually about the topic, the other 1/2 is just about bashing Surrey. Like I said, ignorant people :lol

I agree, but this actually highlights one of the risks of investing in RE. Public perception of areas affect investors more than people just looking for a home. As a homeowner, I wouldn't give a crap what people think of the area I live in, because what works for me is priority one.

However, when I'm thinking about buying a place just to rent out, then the idea of higher rates of vacancy and how 1/2 the people just don't bother looking into an area because of hearsay, perception plays a big part of whether or not that unit is ideal to invest in.

[sdubfid]

I'd rather a used diesel pusher motorhome. More square feet, half the price, no strata and a turbo.

[dinosaur]

I agree, but this actually highlights one of the risks of investing in RE. Public perception of areas affect investors more than people just looking for a home. As a homeowner, I wouldn't give a crap what people think of the area I live in, because what works for me is priority one.

However, when I'm thinking about buying a place just to rent out, then the idea of higher rates of vacancy and how 1/2 the people just don't bother looking into an area because of hearsay, perception plays a big part of whether or not that unit is ideal to invest in.

While this is true, I certainly don't take the opinions by most here as anywhere close to a general public consensus.

[Gridlock]

Surrey are for people who can't afford to live in Vancouver. That's why there are no china mainlanders buying homes in Surrey, even if they do they will get laughed at for being cheap. A brown friend once told me, there are a lot of brown people in Surrey because you pay the least amount for the large houses compare to Vancouver. :fuckthatshit:

No offence dude, but not everyone wants to live in Vancouver. Downtown is not the center of our little universe here. I have worked in downtown a lot, at various condos, and at a high end rental building I maintained. I get fucking frustrated when all I ever get is, "you DON'T live here?" and even better: "wait. You don't WANT to live here?" The owner of the high end building was talking about having me live there...yay. Just what I want...$2000 a month in rent, which I now get to work off, as I'm not living in the basement thanks.

Not everyone that chooses not to live as close to Granville as possible is making a concession...they are making a choice. Not everyone is 21. If I lived a different lifestyle, probably without a car and worked downtown, then I might be inclined more to live there, but it doesn't need to be THE choice made by all.

[hotjoint]

No offence dude, but not everyone wants to live in Vancouver. Downtown is not the center of our little universe here. I have worked in downtown a lot, at various condos, and at a high end rental building I maintained. I get fucking frustrated when all I ever get is, "you DON'T live here?" and even better: "wait. You don't WANT to live here?" The owner of the high end building was talking about having me live there...yay. Just what I want...$2000 a month in rent, which I now get to work off, as I'm not living in the basement thanks.

Not everyone that chooses not to live as close to Granville as possible is making a concession...they are making a choice. Not everyone is 21. If I lived a different lifestyle, probably without a car and worked downtown, then I might be inclined more to live there, but it doesn't need to be THE choice made by all.

Exactly, just because you live in Vancouver or anywhere else, that doesn't make you superior to anyone living here in Surrey. We can afford places in Vancouver but choose not to live there because you get MORE for your money over here. Some people like to get more for their money and want to be in a different atmosphere. You're very ignorant to assume that us people here in Surrey can't afford places in Vancouver. I used to live in Vancouver as a matter of fact then my family moved to Surrey so they could be closer to work so I've lived in Surrey for the majority of my life now. The area where I live is perfect because I'm right off the freeway.

[H.Specter]

I like how 1/2 this thread is actually about the topic, the other 1/2 is just about bashing Surrey. Like I said, ignorant people :lol
http://i.imgur.com/CjchMxJ.gif

[FerrariEnzo]

Surrey are for people who can't afford to live in Vancouver. That's why there are no china mainlanders buying homes in Surrey, even if they do they will get laughed at for being cheap. A brown friend once told me, there are a lot of brown people in Surrey because you pay the least amount for the large houses compare to Vancouver. :fuckthatshit:
That reason is such BS... its because Surrey is as develop as Vancouver/Richmond/BBY.... once that happens, you can be sure chinese people will flock there...
Plus the commute from Richmond/BBY is closer (especially traffic) then Surrey is...

[Mr.HappySilp]

I really live this idea and wouldn't midn buying one for myself. It is very affortable but as the post in this thread suggest I would want to live with normal people who actually wants pace and have regular jobs and not someone who is a druggie and werid all around.

So I don't know...... I actually saw some studio at the development near Brentwood mall (I think is call Solo) pretty neat but price seems to be a bit high.

[Mr.HappySilp]

Wrong. Surrey is for people who don't want to be house-poor, get more for their money, and who don't want the congestion of Vancouver.

I don't give a shit what 'mainlanders' think.

So true. Why would I want to live in downtown where there are traffic congestion everywhere, hard to find parking anywhere, lound noise at night, super high cost to own an apartment. While I get can farther away, less congestion, more home feel(less noise, more quieter streets, more parking space), pay less.

Gf's unlce live in a building in downtown. We went to visit him las tnight , took aobut a good 20 to 30mins to find parking since the visitor parking is full and pretty much all the street parking is full, full of one way street and traffic move like a snail. Not even sure why he wants to live there when he already retire (his place is actually very expensive).

[Manic!]

I think people will have a hard time getting anything over $500 a month if they want to rent these. My buddy rented a basement suite for $400 with heat and hot water included.

[Gridlock]

I think people will have a hard time getting anything over $500 a month if they want to rent these. My buddy rented a basement suite for $400 with heat and hot water included.

Basement suites are a vastly different beast from other forms of rentals. No one in this city does them right.

I had, in one of our buildings, a 1 bedroom unit on the ground floor, which in that building was the basement. The lobby is a floor above.

It was fucking nasty. Ceiling was brown, and I could tell where the sofa was as there was a brown circle on the ceiling above, from cigarettes smoldering away.

Bathroom pipes were leaking and the whole thing smelled like funk.

I reno'd to the tits. Crown molding, new lights, new paint, new sliding door, new railings. New bathroom. There was NOTHING left.

It has, and continues to rent for more than any other unit in the building, and I've renovated others to the same spec.

Every other basement suite apartment I see has the same melamine white cabinets and second hand stove that is 20 years past its prime.

In the...oh christ, I'm going to use a term I hate..."new normal" of more and more people renting, I think there is a growing market of quality rentals where its no longer a duct tape type of situation.

[dinosaur]

I think people will have a hard time getting anything over $500 a month if they want to rent these. My buddy rented a basement suite for $400 with heat and hot water included.

I don't really agree with this. $400\month for a basement suit is almost unheard of.

I think that rent on these units would $650+ depending on location of the suit.

Like I said in a previous post, I have some bachelor apartments in my building and the are priced $650 (1st floor)-$720 (3rd floor). I can't keep them on the market and my phone rings all the time with people wanting bachelors. There are BY FAR the easiest things to rent....they are the same size but a lot older, no dishwasher, and no laundry. They are clean, etc....but certainly not updated, etc.

[twitchyzero]

Wrong. Surrey is for people who don't want to be house-poor, get more for their money, and who don't want the congestion of Vancouver.



What Big Earl said was pretty ignorant and I agree not everyone WANTS to live in the core/heart of a city.

But you can replace the word 'Surrey' in your statement with any suburbs/rural communities in Canada.

I do believe the majority does choose to live in Surrey because of affordability and not so much because they can have a 4 car garage or a horse shed.

[dinosaur]

I find it amusing that people completely write-off Surrey because of the area highlighted in yellow:

16658

It is incredibly narrow-minded.

[Mr.HappySilp]

I find it amusing that people completely write-off Surrey because of the area highlighted in yellow:

16658

It is incredibly narrow-minded.

Some area in Surrey is actually really nice. I think my aunt leaves around 182b or somewhere around there. Very night neighbourhood and is really quiet.

[CA_FTW]

I think the idea of the small living space is great..

I wouldnt live in it, i need my space. But for some people it works..

However i dont see this as a good investment.

What would Garth Say:
Greater Fool (http://www.greaterfool.ca/)

There are way better investment options out there for getting a return on your $$..

As for Equity, I dont really see it. When you buy a condo/apartment what do you get? nothing really there is no ground you can plant flowers on, or Bury you dead Hamster. and your stuck paying Strata fee's even after you have paid it off.

As for the location Surrey is doing great. every area of the Lower mainland has its good and bad Area's.

They are really cleaning Surrey up.

[Manic!]

I don't really agree with this. $400\month for a basement suit is almost unheard of.

I think that rent on these units would $650+ depending on location of the suit.

Like I said in a previous post, I have some bachelor apartments in my building and the are priced $650 (1st floor)-$720 (3rd floor). I can't keep them on the market and my phone rings all the time with people wanting bachelors. There are BY FAR the easiest things to rent....they are the same size but a lot older, no dishwasher, and no laundry. They are clean, etc....but certainly not updated, etc.

Isn't the problem that almost every house in surrey has 1 or 2 basement suites so the market is flooded.

[dinosaur]

A lot of people I talk to DO NOT want to live in a basement suit. They give a variety of reasons ranging from noise...condition of most units...too far away from transit...people don't want to live on the ground floor or semi-subsurface...and some like living in professionally maintained properties.

At the end of the day though, to each their own.

[falcon]

People don't plan on getting rich and staying in surrey.
.

Yeah, let me go tell that to all my friends parents who live in gorgeous houses on acreage all over Surrey. Likely worth tons more than a typical "Vancouver" house on a tiny lot in East Van.

[westopher]

There is NO chance I'd consider living in one of those. However, affordable housing is a necessity, and if affordable housing can be available, without any massive government subsidies, thats always a good thing. Theres no clause in the real world need for housing that says under a certain size is "unfair" or "unliveable." Theres a kitchen, a shower, 4 walls and a roof, and if it needs to be that small for someone to afford it, its good that it exists.

[dinosaur]

People don't plan on getting rich and staying in surrey.



Yeah....Falcon brings a good point.

If I were to plan on getting "rich", where should I move?

[falcon]

I would move out to South Surrey/Langley/Aldergrove and buy land with a nice house on it. Have a nice garage, RV, boat, pool, a bunch of cars all for 10x less what the same would cost in Vancouver.

[westopher]

People don't plan on getting rich and staying in surrey.

Tell that to canadian rock royalty power couple.:pokerface:
http://img2-3.timeinc.net/people/i/2012/news/120903/avril-lavigne-4-300.jpg
:troll:

[MindBomber]

Tell that to canadian rock royalty power couple.:pokerface:


George Melville (Boston Pizza) also owns a home in Surrey.

Guess you're not rich in Vancouver unless you're a billionaire.

[drunkrussian]

guys i gotta admit i was trolling lol
Posted via RS Mobile

[VRYALT3R3D]

There is no chance in hell I would live there.

[4444]

There is NO chance I'd consider living in one of those. However, affordable housing is a necessity, and if affordable housing can be available, without any massive government subsidies, thats always a good thing. Theres no clause in the real world need for housing that says under a certain size is "unfair" or "unliveable." Theres a kitchen, a shower, 4 walls and a roof, and if it needs to be that small for someone to afford it, its good that it exists.

But why do u need to own a low income home? I would hope low income homes would be rented, so that people will work hard and hopefully get out of needing low income homes

[dinosaur]

4444:

You mentioned earlier that would would never invest in a condo. Why? Is it because the market is saturated? What type of property would you (or do you) invest in?

Cole's Notes version?

[ImportPsycho]

Its in an up and coming area with tons of new development (shopping, restaurants, condos, and townhomes)...steps to the skytrain...a block from SFU Surrey....20 mins to Vancouver.


Dude, are you the same guy on the radio?
I hear the same line on the radio everyday, one of the condo advertisement

[dinosaur]

Dude, are you the same guy on the radio?
I hear the same line on the radio everyday, one of the condo advertisement

Yes. Yes, I am.

[Messerschmitt]

Do you get commission or something if these get sold?

[asian_XL]

It could be a good start if parents want their kids to move out the house after highschool. They want to have a house party? then start making more money.

I can't imagine how difficult it is to collect rent from the low-income, people probably trash your place or steal your TV before they leave.

[Gridlock]

I can't imagine how difficult it is to collect rent from the low-income, people probably trash your place or steal your TV before they leave.

I will say two things about them. One: They inevitably believe their value in your world is higher than the one you would place on them. And two: not a single one of them consider Mr.Clean a good investment in their lives.

[4444]

4444:

You mentioned earlier that would would never invest in a condo. Why? Is it because the market is saturated? What type of property would you (or do you) invest in?

Cole's Notes version?

I can only try to be brief :)

I buy single family detached homes (<10 yrs old, but never new, ever the nicest house in the 'hood, and always some kind of premium factor about the plot/property - house just needs to be nice, clean, and good enough for me to live in), I plan on eventually getting into commercial and whole condo buildings, but never a single condo (unless the deal is amazing) for the following reasons:

Yes, market is pretty darn saturated. As you don't really own the land (I can't knock down and rebuild, or rezone, etc. the value of a condo is merely its cash flow potential. Given rents relative to price are at all time lows, they fail on this metric

Other ppl! Other people can do things like flood their condo... Which floods urs, less risk of that in a single family (non townhouse).

Building issues - condos in Vancouver are built to shit quality conditions.. They will all require a lot of work and thus owners will have special assessments. If u buy a house with a good inspection and are relatively handy/knowledgeable, u mitigate this risk for a single family. Also, given the size and ability to easily work on a wood, single family home, costs will be lower on repairs vs a major condo repair (it's hard to do an apples to apples comparison)

Strata/maintenance fees - I fear this money is not efficiently used. The building I rent in (for way way way way way way way less than what u'd pay to own this place) is terribly run, but ppl say the current management is a huge step up from before - it must have been atrocious before!!

Living so close to people - having a shite neighbour can make ur condo unrentable - I don't want a douchebag neighbour (and their are plenty of them in Vancouver) effecting my investment

Ability to knock down and rebuild, rezone, etc.

Clientele - personally, I don't want ur typical condo dweller, a young professional as a tenant, for a reason - whether professional or not, I find young ppl are heavy handed with things. Young professionals are often single, but end up meeting someone and moving out - I want tenants for a long time, makes my life easier if I just see money in every month with no headaches. So, I want young families, newly married ppl with a baby are great, they're looking to establish roots, stay in a curtain school area, etc. and chances are a move to a new place may be a stress they don't want (with a, or many kids)

Just my thoughts on real estate investments - things can changed based on the deal... But as things stand, that's what I buy/own. Remember, my properties aren't on Canada... When prices come down 40% I will start buying here - and that is a when, not an if

[4444]

^ I failed on being brief, sorry

[GLOW]

Dude, are you the same guy on the radio?
I hear the same line on the radio everyday, one of the condo advertisement

:suspicious:




:badpokerface:

[godwin]

Having the chance to interact with a few of them, I realize the majority have some kind of developmental issue usually ADD spectrum, mental issues (usually manic).. and their world view is so small that they think they are the king of the world. What bugs me is once they "recover" from substance abuse, they invariably manage to get disability from the Gov., so free rent and free post secondary education for the rest of their lives. I won't be surprised there is some type of Revscene equivalent for them to exchange ideas to "optimise" their return from the system.

I will say two things about them. One: They inevitably believe their value in your world is higher than the one you would place on them. And two: not a single one of them consider Mr.Clean a good investment in their lives.

[VRYALT3R3D]

The unit is so small, I cant see this being a good investment.

Rental income is larger when you have more bedrooms. Rental income increases when there is more sq. footage. Resale is the biggest reason.

Appreciation is based on the PAST 5 years performance to project the next 5 years performance.

Investment properties are purely based on return on investment.

[Gridlock]

I can only try to be brief :)

I buy single family detached homes (<10 yrs old, but never new, ever the nicest house in the 'hood, and always some kind of premium factor about the plot/property - house just needs to be nice, clean, and good enough for me to live in), I plan on eventually getting into commercial and whole condo buildings, but never a single condo (unless the deal is amazing) for the following reasons:

Yes, market is pretty darn saturated. As you don't really own the land (I can't knock down and rebuild, or rezone, etc. the value of a condo is merely its cash flow potential. Given rents relative to price are at all time lows, they fail on this metric

Other ppl! Other people can do things like flood their condo... Which floods urs, less risk of that in a single family (non townhouse).

Building issues - condos in Vancouver are built to shit quality conditions.. They will all require a lot of work and thus owners will have special assessments. If u buy a house with a good inspection and are relatively handy/knowledgeable, u mitigate this risk for a single family. Also, given the size and ability to easily work on a wood, single family home, costs will be lower on repairs vs a major condo repair (it's hard to do an apples to apples comparison)

Strata/maintenance fees - I fear this money is not efficiently used. The building I rent in (for way way way way way way way less than what u'd pay to own this place) is terribly run, but ppl say the current management is a huge step up from before - it must have been atrocious before!!

Living so close to people - having a shite neighbour can make ur condo unrentable - I don't want a douchebag neighbour (and their are plenty of them in Vancouver) effecting my investment

Ability to knock down and rebuild, rezone, etc.

Clientele - personally, I don't want ur typical condo dweller, a young professional as a tenant, for a reason - whether professional or not, I find young ppl are heavy handed with things. Young professionals are often single, but end up meeting someone and moving out - I want tenants for a long time, makes my life easier if I just see money in every month with no headaches. So, I want young families, newly married ppl with a baby are great, they're looking to establish roots, stay in a curtain school area, etc. and chances are a move to a new place may be a stress they don't want (with a, or many kids)

Just my thoughts on real estate investments - things can changed based on the deal... But as things stand, that's what I buy/own. Remember, my properties aren't on Canada... When prices come down 40% I will start buying here - and that is a when, not an if

Yeah, to anyone that is thinking about real estate investing, or just trying to learn about it-this sums it up nicely.

I have worked in a fair amount of pricey condos in your precious downtown...and they are all shit. My favorite was the one down by BC Place that had concrete you could surf. I had quoted on floors and painting, and they went with the other guy for floors as he was willing to grind into the floors to level them for far less than I was. The floors were still shit, but it wasn't his fault. Had to take out over an inch. He went with a jackhammer.

Then, you get the condo people on your ass, because its louder than shit...and they start complaining about everything else.

I totally agree with you on young people in renting. We've been working over the years to take our main building to a "mid-market" level, where its condo quality, and condo style at obviously less money than a condo. We get a lot of the young pros and semi-pros and they are annoying.

They are better though, than the whatever the hell word you'd use to describe the group we had here when we started. Oh...desperate. That's the word I'd use. :) But when you look at someone and say "1 year lease" and they get this look of panic in their eyes...its crazy. I'm sorry...you actually WANT to move more than once a year?

And, I'll warn anyone...dealing with tenants sucks. We hold onto the idea that what we do is way better than getting in the car every morning and driving to an office...but it comes with drawbacks. Some act like customers-which they kind of are, but not really. Everything needs to be done now. No waits. Oh...and for some, renting seems to be like christmas, and they come to you with their wish lists.

I have run a ton of scenarios on renting out condos. Even with my materials only reno budget, and ignoring my time completely...I can't make it work. You are the last to get paid. The mortgage guys...they get their money. The strata people take theirs. You get what you can squeeze out at the end. And you can face a tenant that moves out in december or january and the apartment sits for a month. I had a couple people move in those months at my one building and I had to drop the apartments pants to bottom dollar to get it to move. Even with a shitty, older condo here in the 'burbs, you are 10 months in at 100 a month to recoup one lost month of rent at cost only $1000...almost a year!

High risk should be high reward. And it used to be. I'd take that deal in a heartbeat if my property was accruing equity at 10% a year(say...2000 to 2007). You can make up cash flow on sale.

And how sad is it that I can't even use free labor to make the math work?

[GLOW]

I had quoted on floors and painting, and they went with the other guy for floors as he was willing to grind into the floors to level them for far less than I was. The floors were still shit, but it wasn't his fault. Had to take out over an inch. He went with a jackhammer.


so what's the chance they did any scanning beforehand to ensure there are no live electrical conduits in slab before they started chipping? :badpokerface:

[Gridlock]

so what's the chance they did any scanning beforehand to ensure there are no live electrical conduits in slab before they started chipping? :badpokerface:

Ha...yeah, I'm sure that happened.

I priced myself high so I didn't need to deal with it. I did concrete leveling on a house and it was a bitch..way easier to deal with low spots and add in, rather than a high spot and remove.

[Graeme S]

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f247/itsgms/4444Fry_zpsa7f21051.jpg


But something I've always been kind of curious about: What happens when a building has reached its lifespan? Like, a house, you can just tear it down and build a new one. But what happens with a Condo? Do people get a portion (relative to their total interest in the building) when the land gets sold to a new developer? Or is it just a game of hot potato, trying to hold on to it for as long as possible until its value suddenly disappears?

[dinosaur]

I dig the "hot potato" theory.

[godwin]

Well it depends on the building.. there are tons of apartment buildings in TO that are built in the 60s.. they refurb the pipes these days by injecting a layer of plastic inside old pipes. So a lot of the basic systems can be refurb these days, but the buildings are still ghetto! If a developer wants to buy the building, they can talk to people get bought out unit by unit?

Most apartment buildings that are being torn down these days are lease units..eg the buildings out on Beach Ave on the West End. There are still plenty of low hanging fruits in Vancouver.

Honestly if you are buying real estate as an investment there are more lucrative market than Vancouver or even TO.. SF, NYC, HK.. China (eg Shanghai).. heck where else can you get 30% appreciation / freaking quarter?!!


But something I've always been kind of curious about: What happens when a building has reached its lifespan? Like, a house, you can just tear it down and build a new one. But what happens with a Condo? Do people get a portion (relative to their total interest in the building) when the land gets sold to a new developer? Or is it just a game of hot potato, trying to hold on to it for as long as possible until its value suddenly disappears?

[Graeme S]

Well it depends on the building.. there are tons of apartment buildings in TO that are built in the 60s.. they refurb the pipes these days by injecting a layer of plastic inside old pipes. So a lot of the basic systems can be refurb these days, but the buildings are still ghetto! If a developer wants to buy the building, they can talk to people get bought out unit by unit?

Most apartment buildings that are being torn down these days are lease units..eg the buildings out on Beach Ave on the West End. There are still plenty of low hanging fruits in Vancouver.

Honestly if you are buying real estate as an investment there are more lucrative market than Vancouver or even TO.. SF, NYC, HK.. China (eg Shanghai).. heck where else can you get 30% appreciation / freaking quarter?!!
That works for Apartments, though I was thinking more about Condos. I mean, you OWN your suite. So then what? Apartments you just rent, and you hold no equity. You can't be forced out until the building needs to be condemned, and it's the owner's responsibility to keep it as habitable as possible as long as possible.

But what about Condos? There comes a time when the building is done. So what then?

[Gridlock]

That works for Apartments, though I was thinking more about Condos. I mean, you OWN your suite. So then what? Apartments you just rent, and you hold no equity. You can't be forced out until the building needs to be condemned, and it's the owner's responsibility to keep it as habitable as possible as long as possible.

But what about Condos? There comes a time when the building is done. So what then?

Not really a matter of a building running out of life.

You can buy a house built in early 20th century quite easily...a little harder for late 19th, but they can be found. Hell, in europe people live in houses that are 300 years old.

The issue is, how has it been maintained?

As a building physically wears, it gets to the point that it becomes cheaper to tear down, then to fix.

I can tell you, as I've been in the guts of more than my fair share of apartment buildings that very few spend the money it takes to maintain a building. Eventually, you pull it and build a new one. One building in the West End, the owner dumped in about 1 million in rehab. Ours in New West, we went without the fresco on the ceiling(true story...$1000's in having cherubs painted on the ceiling, that no one noticed) and we're good for about 300k.

I would assume that if someone sees a building, that is in disrepair and does the math on buying out the owners and building a new tower on the site and it works, then you get a note under your door with an offer to buy. This doesn't seem to happen because a) condos are still a new development and we don't have a history on dealing with aging and b) they seem to just spend like crazy to rehab the building...its easy, 6 people on the board vote to spend 50k-100k+ of everyones money and re-build the building.

[dinosaur]

Do people get a portion (relative to their total interest in the building) when the land gets sold to a new developer?

I imagine this would be the case.

I have wondered the same thing. I don't have a lot of experience with Vancouver buildings but there are a lot of 1970s buildings in New West that are privately owned. They usually sell for about $140-170k for a 1 bedroom. Cheap to buy but the stratas can be over $500\month because the maintenance is insane: new roofs, new windows, new plumbing, new electrical, new elevators, etc...

Like you said, what happens 20-30 years from now when there places are 70 years old? I know there are places in Montreal\New York\San Fran that are a 100 years old...but lets face it, 100 years ago these buildings were built WAY better. I imagine some of these condos that were built 10-20 years ago will never make it to 100.

[dinosaur]

Not really a matter of a building running out of life.
.........

ffs, do we always have to post the same shit?!

[4444]

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f247/itsgms/4444Fry_zpsa7f21051.jpg


But something I've always been kind of curious about: What happens when a building has reached its lifespan? Like, a house, you can just tear it down and build a new one. But what happens with a Condo? Do people get a portion (relative to their total interest in the building) when the land gets sold to a new developer? Or is it just a game of hot potato, trying to hold on to it for as long as possible until its value suddenly disappears?

Love the meme, thank u!

I tell u what I think, I'd advice ppl Always do their own due diligence and learning, whatever I say should be a great starting point for learning... But if u follow some dude on the Internet and ur not fully in charge of what's going on and what ur doing (bc ur just following the words of some nameless person), and something goes wrong, what do u do? Chances are not be able to deal with it appropriately and thus, lose money

This is why I tell everyone to get as much education and experience as possible - preferably on someone else's dime!

Again, love the meme, feel honoured!

[VRYALT3R3D]

Anyone else noticed the article doesn't mention condo fees? Or did I miss it?

[dinosaur]

Anyone else noticed the article doesn't mention condo fees? Or did I miss it?

They will rarely, if ever, list the strata fees in a sales brochure\website\ad\etc.

In my experience, this is something that will be estimated (based on comps) when you inquire at the presentation centre. You will also find the name of the management company.

Strata fees are based on you square footage and will increase yearly...not by much, but over the same of 5-10 years you will notice the difference.

Strata fees are also based on building amenities: pools, gyms, number of elevators, size of gardens, courtyards, playgrounds, etc. along with insurance, utilities, etc. Condo fees are higher than townhomes and there is a lot more 'common' space (lobby, halls, parking garage, storage, etc).

My strata fee for a 1300 sq ft townhouse is about $150 (originally $127 4 years ago). My friend bought a condo down the street at the same time for about $20k less and his strata fee is almost $400. His building has a pool, hot tub, etc. I thought it was INSANE!

$250 per month makes a HUGE difference to your mortgage and I'd rather not throw it down the drain.

I know I started this thread and I do find these specific units intriguing, but it would have to be a SLAMMING deal to get me to buy a condo based on strata fees alone.

I would estimate that the fees for these unit would hover around $100...maybe $80. There appears to be a very small amenity room...no pool...and no real "garden" area.

[MTV Cribs]

So did anybody buy at this development today?
Posted via RS Mobile

[FerrariEnzo]

are condos even worth money in investing in? Its not really like a house which has land value, or even a townhouse..

[quasi]

They will rarely, if ever, list the strata fees in a sales brochure\website\ad\etc.

In my experience, this is something that will be estimated (based on comps) when you inquire at the presentation centre. You will also find the name of the management company.

Strata fees are based on you square footage and will increase yearly...not by much, but over the same of 5-10 years you will notice the difference.

Strata fees are also based on building amenities: pools, gyms, number of elevators, size of gardens, courtyards, playgrounds, etc. along with insurance, utilities, etc. Condo fees are higher than townhomes and there is a lot more 'common' space (lobby, halls, parking garage, storage, etc).

My strata fee for a 1300 sq ft townhouse is about $150 (originally $127 4 years ago). My friend bought a condo down the street at the same time for about $20k less and his strata fee is almost $400. His building has a pool, hot tub, etc. I thought it was INSANE!

$250 per month makes a HUGE difference to your mortgage and I'd rather not throw it down the drain.

I know I started this thread and I do find these specific units intriguing, but it would have to be a SLAMMING deal to get me to buy a condo based on strata fees alone.

I would estimate that the fees for these unit would hover around $100...maybe $80. There appears to be a very small amenity room...no pool...and no real "garden" area.


Not to mention the more units the less the fees, more people kicking into the pot. With little units like this you could fit a lot of units in a tiny area.

[4444]

are condos even worth money in investing in? Its not really like a house which has land value, or even a townhouse..

God, your parents, or whatever you believe in, gave you eyes and a brain to be able to read and comprehend. From this thread alone you should have a good starting point to be able to not ask that question. My posts alone in this thread provide a good starting point...

[BurnoutBinLaden]

Love the meme, thank u!

I tell u what I think, I'd advice ppl Always do their own due diligence and learning, whatever I say should be a great starting point for learning... But if u follow some dude on the Internet and ur not fully in charge of what's going on and what ur doing (bc ur just following the words of some nameless person), and something goes wrong, what do u do? Chances are not be able to deal with it appropriately and thus, lose money


I wish I could thank this twice. I'm always reminded of that Seinfeld episode with the stock tip:

Seinfeld, "The Stock Tip ". - YouTube

Even Jim Cramer, who makes a living giving hot stock tips, says do your homework before you invest. Everyone is looking for a free lunch, not looking to put in some elbow grease. Fuck, even I've been guilty of this.

The world needs more people like you.

[BurnoutBinLaden]

FerrariEnzo, I personally wouldn't do it. Not only because prices in Vancouver are still astronomical, and I have $0 to my name, but condo construction quality is GODAWFUL, and many strata corporations ban rent-outs.

In the condo game, the only winners are the developers. They make bank because people want to live in the best city on Earth, and are able to they throw campaign dollars at Vision and NPA. The end result is, whoever's in power will gladly accept a developer's proposal for a glass condo instead of an office building or cultural venue such as a stadium, art gallery or public square.

End political rant.

[dinosaur]

I didn't want to start a new thread on a topic that was somewhat similar to this, so I'll thought I would post here...

Was flipping through the local paper today and say and advert for a new condo\townhouse development being built here in New West (one of many, actually). The advert claimed that if you buy on the unit, they will PAY your mortgage for 24 months.

They are priced from $159,900 (one bed) and go to over $400k.

Quick google search and found this: New West (http://www.vancouversun.com/business/West+Elliot+Street+homes+among+lowest+priced/7518490/story.html)

Looked up the developer`s site but its only to register (which I did out of curiosity): Elliot Street | Collection | CENSORIO (http://www.censorio.com/collection/elliot-street)

How is it possible for them to pay the mortgage for 24 months? There was no other info...do you think they are going to rebate? I imagine to qualify the down payment would need to be huge.

How are they going to do this? Whats the loop-hole? Thoughts?

(note-i am not considering buying one....i`ve just never seen this sales pitch before)

[TheKingdom2000]

Do you have a picture of the advertisement?

[BurnoutBinLaden]

http://i.imgur.com/yHCTuNJ.png

[Gridlock]

Well, not knowing the particulars of the fine print:

at 3.5% interest, with 15% down(which you know isn't happening at all) is $679 per month.

x 26 apartments is 17654 per month.

x 24 months is $424000

(assuming all 26 sold under this program is our bottom feeder 159k specials)

Their cost to blast out their apartments super quick is 1/2 a million. I haven't built any large towers recently, but while I don't think 1/2 a million is chump change, I think its something you can recoup on building with a lot of units-some probably priced quite nicely up high in the building.

Plus, who knows what the downpayment requirement is...every thousand dollars down, is $5 less for them per month in mortgage. Which in reality is $120 over the life of this offer(to them)

This is all super rough math.

[dinosaur]

16766

16767

[dinosaur]

Says numbers are based of 15% down payment and you need to visit the presentation centre for more details.

[godwin]

They probably just say 24 months of equivalent value based on 15% downpayment and a long mortgage... Since CMHC is backing all this, then they can probably repackage the whole thing and sell as a CDS etc. If you calculate it for the 400k apartment it is probably 20kish off.. it is not that much that's 5% discount? Most places give more discount than that.. it is just another negotiation tool.

I didn't want to start a new thread on a topic that was somewhat similar to this, so I'll thought I would post here...

Was flipping through the local paper today and say and advert for a new condo\townhouse development being built here in New West (one of many, actually). The advert claimed that if you buy on the unit, they will PAY your mortgage for 24 months.

They are priced from $159,900 (one bed) and go to over $400k.

Quick google search and found this: New West (http://www.vancouversun.com/business/West+Elliot+Street+homes+among+lowest+priced/7518490/story.html)

Looked up the developer`s site but its only to register (which I did out of curiosity): Elliot Street | Collection | CENSORIO (http://www.censorio.com/collection/elliot-street)

How is it possible for them to pay the mortgage for 24 months? There was no other info...do you think they are going to rebate? I imagine to qualify the down payment would need to be huge.

How are they going to do this? Whats the loop-hole? Thoughts?

(note-i am not considering buying one....i`ve just never seen this sales pitch before)

[dinosaur]

I thought CMHC required a min. 20% down?

[Gridlock]

I thought CMHC required a min. 20% down?

to avoid mortgage insurance.

[dinosaur]

:rukidding:

[Marshall Placid]

I didn't want to start a new thread on a topic that was somewhat similar to this, so I'll thought I would post here...

Was flipping through the local paper today and say and advert for a new condo\townhouse development being built here in New West (one of many, actually). The advert claimed that if you buy on the unit, they will PAY your mortgage for 24 months.

They are priced from $159,900 (one bed) and go to over $400k.

Quick google search and found this: New West (http://www.vancouversun.com/business/West+Elliot+Street+homes+among+lowest+priced/7518490/story.html)

Looked up the developer`s site but its only to register (which I did out of curiosity): Elliot Street | Collection | CENSORIO (http://www.censorio.com/collection/elliot-street)

How is it possible for them to pay the mortgage for 24 months? There was no other info...do you think they are going to rebate? I imagine to qualify the down payment would need to be huge.

How are they going to do this? Whats the loop-hole? Thoughts?

(note-i am not considering buying one....i`ve just never seen this sales pitch before)

About the location:
Location wise.... it's definitely ABOVE average.

You get a park nearby and the old and new downtown New West is nearby.

The police station (transit police, but it is large station) is about 3 to 4 blocks away.

Pretty large mall about 6 blocks away.

Good location.

About the 24 months no-payment (they pay for you):
I think Gridlock nailed it on the head when he mentioned that their cost to entice buyers is really not that high at all. It's a high-rise with 121 units. I think by providing 24 months worth of payments translates to about 1% to 2% of overall costs, which is somewhat low for marketing expenses.

And, I think that the developer is trying to sell it quickly; perhaps, they think that the market is saturated and is trending downwards.

By selling the units quickly, they lock in buyers since the high-rise completes mid-2015.

Buyers would sign contracts with no-out clauses and the developers get guaranteed sold units.

And/or:

The developer is trying to sell as many units as possible to meet the demands of its loan facilities provided by the bank. I believe it is a 3 or 4 stage loan provision. So, the 1st stage is to build the foundation. Then, the bank would release the 1st portion of the loan (say... 25%). 2nd stage is when they have the crane up with the steel frame, then the bank would release the 2nd portion... etc. I think when the developers pre-sells over 50%, the bank will release the other 2 stage portions. Perhaps, this is what the developer wants to accomplish? This could foretell a bad situation where the developer is low on cash and relies heavily on bank loans for the development of the high-rise.

[dinosaur]

Yeah, the location is great. They have done some amazing things in New West in the last 2 year and I quite enjoy living here.

They 24 month thing seem a little interesting. Ideally, I`d buy and stick a renter in there....but, will strata allow it? Who knows.

Could rent the one bedroom for $1100+...would be nice to pocket that for 24 months...I dunno. There seems to be a recent push for new options in condo buying...

[Marshall Placid]

Yeah, the location is great. They have done some amazing things in New West in the last 2 year and I quite enjoy living here.

They 24 month thing seem a little interesting. Ideally, I`d buy and stick a renter in there....but, will strata allow it? Who knows.

Could rent the one bedroom for $1100+...would be nice to pocket that for 24 months...I dunno. There seems to be a recent push for new options in condo buying...

Many units are purchased and rented out.

Strata will MOST likely allow it, provided it meets the strata bylaws (maybe a no-pet or a maximum size pet bylaw, etc.).

On paper, you will be cash flow positive if they pay for 24 months and you pocket $1,100 per month.

Of course, you probably already figured that you need to pay the down-payment, monthly strata fees, etc. And, there is the potential for upside AS WELL as downside in the value of the condo.

If you buy 1 unit, and have plans to upgrade your current home, this 1 unit purchase might hinder your plans to upgrade in the near future, if you are unable to unload the Censorio apartment purchase.

[dinosaur]

Down payment isn`t a problem...current property is rented out. Bought in 2008 and have never lived in it (rented out the day after it was completed). I wouldn`t be looking at dumping my current property or unloading the Censorio condo (if we bought one). Was lucky to not have any rental restrictions with my townhouse.

Looking for more rental investments...

[dinosaur]

Saw this story today and reminded me of this thread.

I find it amusing that we needed to put this in a museum...."challenge" a couple to live in it for A WHOLE 24 HOURS!!! (OMG!), and then do a news story on CNN about it. :rukidding:

#firstworldproblems

CNN Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/us/2013/08/18/pkg-whittier-micro-apartment.wpix&hpt=hp_c4)

Found this stat amusing as well- Average home sized around the world (or 6 countries...):

US: 2,300sf
Australia: 2,217sf
Denmark: 1,475sf
France: 1,216sf
Spain: 1,044sf
Ireland: 947sf
UK: 818sf

[RFlush]

Hah, I live in a 340sq ft place that cost's me around $1750cdn to rent, albeit it's in HK.

[LiquidTurbo]

About the location:
Location wise.... it's definitely ABOVE average.

You get a park nearby and the old and new downtown New West is nearby.

The police station (transit police, but it is large station) is about 3 to 4 blocks away.

Pretty large mall about 6 blocks away.

Good location.

About the 24 months no-payment (they pay for you):
I think Gridlock nailed it on the head when he mentioned that their cost to entice buyers is really not that high at all. It's a high-rise with 121 units. I think by providing 24 months worth of payments translates to about 1% to 2% of overall costs, which is somewhat low for marketing expenses.

And, I think that the developer is trying to sell it quickly; perhaps, they think that the market is saturated and is trending downwards.

By selling the units quickly, they lock in buyers since the high-rise completes mid-2015.

Buyers would sign contracts with no-out clauses and the developers get guaranteed sold units.

And/or:

The developer is trying to sell as many units as possible to meet the demands of its loan facilities provided by the bank. I believe it is a 3 or 4 stage loan provision. So, the 1st stage is to build the foundation. Then, the bank would release the 1st portion of the loan (say... 25%). 2nd stage is when they have the crane up with the steel frame, then the bank would release the 2nd portion... etc. I think when the developers pre-sells over 50%, the bank will release the other 2 stage portions. Perhaps, this is what the developer wants to accomplish? This could foretell a bad situation where the developer is low on cash and relies heavily on bank loans for the development of the high-rise.

Thank you for this insightful analysis.

[LiquidTurbo]

Home : Sefton Springs (http://www.seftonsprings.com/)

thoughts?

[dinosaur]

Home : Sefton Springs (http://www.seftonsprings.com/)

thoughts?

Here is what I am hating about the "new" townhomes being built....

-If I am buying a damn townhouse, why don't I get all 3 floors!?
-Where is my garage? Isn't that the bonus of paying a little extra? I get stairs and a garage.
-Stop telling me that is called a "den". Its a small space where a closet should be.
-When did we start hating outdoor space? Ever a small 6x6 foot patch a grass would be nice.
-Where is the linen closet? Where can I store my vacuum? Where is the coat closet?
-Please stop putting a bathroom in the living room. My guests and I are okay walking upstairs. Nobody wants to hear each other tinkle.

The 3 down to 2 floors is really irking me. Who is the sucker paying to live in the basement suite blow your "townhouse"? Imagine trying to re-sell that? What are the perks? No sun. Ground floor. Small. Most likely a family with kids living above you. Oh, and your paying a lot to do so. No thanks. And really, one of the perks about buying a townhouse is you get a garage! When did developers think taking this away was good??

Ugh.

But to answer your question. It depends what you are looking for. They are "cheap" comparatively...but in the middle of nowhere. My thoughts are they are cheap because they are small and using shitty material. That area is so insanely saturated with new development right now so don't plan on selling for a very long time....like a VERY long time. Developers have literally bulldozed Ferngully to built 10,000 condos and townhomes.

Also, the website sucks and the developer doesn't even have a website. Probably some random landowner decided it was big enough to throw some cheap townhouses on the land and sell. I'd be pretty hesitant.

[bcedhk]

Yea I would avoid for sure. Price is attractive, but as Dinosaur mentioned, floor plan sucks.

Pretty sure sound proofing will be horrible.

[Gridlock]

The funny thing is there really isn't a definition of townhouse.

My mom's condo was listed in all the paperwork as a "townhouse" but as it was a one floor, 2 bedroom apartment up a flight of stairs it seemed kind of "apartmenty" to me.

Be really careful on locking into something that isn't "the" home in an area where you are going to compete against developers to sell your unit.

My prediction(based on no real expertise) is that we are sitting on a price peak along the lines of 2007. I personally wouldn't be in a hurry to buy in an average unit, on an average street in an average area where I'll be competing with new development to sell the place..and that is a very important concept, because this is very much a starter home.

But that's just me, and others can claim that you'll sell it for $400k and would be fucking retarded not to buy it.

[quasi]

Pretty sure sound proofing will be horrible.


Shouldn't be that bad if done correctly. Almost all party walls in Condo and townhouse developments are at least STC 50 but most getting closer to 60 with a double wall, 2 rows of insulation and 3 layers of Drywall. Living in a condo or townhouse you have to expect some noise, it's not like living in a detached house.

The sound transfer between my basement and ground floor in my house is ridiculous as you can hear absolutely everything, it's just us so I haven't done anything about it but if I was to rent out my basement I could easily make it close to sound proof for everyday sounds.

[dinosaur]

Here are some of my overall thoughts.

Prices are currently out of control. This is no newsflash. We know it, realtors know it, developers know it, media knows it, gov't knows it, my bunny knows it...hell, there have been dozens of threads on RS dedicated to it.

On top of this, development is out of control. These builders can't put up these things fast enough to the point where at any given time in any given city (van, coq, burn, nw, surrey, rich, etc) I am sure any one of us can name 5-10 development currently being built. All of them have the same floor plan. All of them have the same view. All of them have the same "features". All of them are the same size.

-beige paint walls
-solid surface counters
-engineers wood flooring
-subway-tiled back splash
-12x24 floor tiles
-beige carpet in the bedrooms
-pressboard cupboards

You get two design choices...the dark or the light? Apart from the odd over-priced upgrade for a better shower head, this is your only choice.

Truthfully, its fine. Its all fine. I have walked though these show homes as well and totally fallen in love with the "new car" smell. They are nice. All of them. Like....ALL of them. Because they are all the same.

So, developers can no longer compete on quality, finishes, floor plans, and amenities...so we start to compete on pricing. Good for us, right?? Well, no. These people are not really competing with pricing, they are just getting better at pulling the wool over your eyes.

For example, take this Sefton Springs development. $209K?? well, damn thats a great price! Too bad its only one unit available...and without even asking, we all know its the worst unit. Maybe partially subsurface...view is a concrete wall...or there is no view because the windows are too small. So, right off the bat, let eliminate this "$209k" bullshit.

Whats next? Plan C (price-wise). The "townhouse" for $269k. Great deal!! Oh wait....only 500 sq/ft per floor...with the added bonus that when your arms are stretched, you can touch both walls. Cool. Have fun still purchasing apartment sized furniture for your upgraded townhouse.

Plan B. This is a condo. A ground floor condo. A ground floor condo that you are now buying for almost $300k. How is this different than anyone other condo in the lower mainland? Its not.

You say, "wait! its not $300k, its $289,900!". Oh, but wait....the bonus of having a complex built like this and the developer NOT giving people a garage is that now you have to buy a parking spot! YAY!. So that "good deal" is now comparable to all others in the area. You want a spot? Add $15-20k to the purchase price.

If they are not doing the above, they are doing something else. These beautiful display homes everyone walks through are nothing like the end product. I've been there. Take away all the pretty paint, all the upgrades which nobody should pay for, all the furniture and art on the walls and you are literally left with a shitty rental apartment with better floors.

Plan A should be $109k
Plan B should be $149k
Plan C should be $129k

IF you are set on buying, you should get a realtor and look at units built within the last 5 years. They will be the same...and you will be able to get a far better deal.

[Presto]

Home : Sefton Springs (http://www.seftonsprings.com/)

thoughts?

I clicked. Saw $209k, and was intrigued. Damn, that's a decent price for a townhome. Then, I clicked on the floor plans.

:seriously: :fuckthatshit:

That's a cheap-ass condo with horrible layout

[quasi]

If they are not doing the above, they are doing something else. These beautiful display homes everyone walks through is nothing like the end product. I've been there. Take away all the pretty paint, all the upgrades which nobody should pay for, all the furniture and art on the walls and you are literally left with a shitty rental apartment with better floors.


I'm sure that's the case sometimes but not in every case. We've done a couple show homes for a GC who does lots of developments throughout the lower mainland. They stress that we are not to do any special finishes and they do there best to ensure that the show units are as close to what the finished product will look like as possible. I'm not doubting that happens a lot I'm just saying there are still some companies out there that don't want to sell something that doesn't exist.