[CharlesInCharge]

Family devastated after driver fined $400 for killing grandmother | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun (http://www.torontosun.com/2013/08/22/a-life-is-worth-more-than-400)

TORONTO - A life should be worth more than a $400 fine. Carelessly killing a pedestrian should warrant more than a simple conviction under the Highway Traffic Act.

But thanks to a plea bargain, that’s all Ann Wyganowski received Thursday for striking and then running over Fen Shi, a beloved grandmother simply walking along a Bayview Ave. sidewalk on a clear September day last year.

“I just can’t believe it,” said Shi’s shaken son, John Pan. “The fine is only $400 — for a life. Can you believe that?”

Canadian courts fine a driver $400 after running a grandmother over on the sidewalk - YouTube

But he was shaking with anger as justice of the peace Alfred Johnston not only accepted the plea deal, but had the nerve to chastise him for saying the driver had “killed” his mom. And then he went further. “The defendant,” Johnston opined, “has suffered just as much as the family.”

.....
Court heard the 54-year-old (driver) vice-president of HZX Business Continuity Planning was turning north out of her chiropractor’s driveway and looking left at the traffic when she struck and then ran over Shi. She continued driving until honking witnesses finally alerted her to what she’d done and she returned to the scene.

Wyganowski was charged with careless driving. But to the shock of Shi’s children, Crown attorney Raphael Leong informed them just before Mother’s Day that he was going to accept a deal.



Just when you think the structure of lords and peasants were a thing of the past, or that every life is equal.

A quick look over at some of the comments
http://i.imgur.com/oKpoIDg.jpg




http://i.imgur.com/wkyp9ys.jpg

[Lomac]

So it's apparently cheaper to accidentally run someone over than it is to go 40+ km/hr over the speed limit. Guess we know what people will start doing from now on.

:badpokerface:

Bad jokes aside, here's a conundrum for everyone here... Obviously this was an accident, pure and simple. There was no malicious intent, no pre-planning, no nothing. Just a momentary lapse of judgment that unfortunately cost an innocent woman her life.

So... does something like this deserve jail time? And, if so, how much? Or, if it doesn't, what would an appropriate form of punishment be? I'll admit that $400 seems largely out of whack with killing someone, even if it was an accident, but what would be a more suitable fine be?


Also, to the quotes in the OP talking about how she "didn't know" she hit someone... I can kinda believe it. I was driving my buddy's H1 wagon a few years back and we were rear ended. I genuinely didn't even know we were hit until the driver who hit us came out and knocked on the door, asking if we were okay. Admittedly it's a bit of a leap to compare that thing to what the the driver in the OP was in, but it is possible.

[CharlesInCharge]

I think in Iran you are put in jail for a long punishment until the family of the victim forgives you. How you get that forgiveness could be to show that you're truly sorry and or the right compensation given or something to that effect.

[snails]

i had a momentary lapse in judgement when shoulder checking and a Crv in front of me decided to panick brake for whatever reason and that cost me $3000 to fix a bumper.. so i think yes.. $400 is pretty fcking weak

unless this Crv bumper was worth more than this lady...

[CharlesInCharge]

Someone should forward the family to have phone and text records obtained to see if she was using it just before the accident.
To run over a white women and then flea as if nothing happened would surely be 40+ year life sentence for a black man in the USA. Dare me to find such a case.

[snails]

i dare you


:badpokerface:

[Traum]

Bad jokes aside, here's a conundrum for everyone here... Obviously this was an accident, pure and simple. There was no malicious intent, no pre-planning, no nothing. Just a momentary lapse of judgment that unfortunately cost an innocent woman her life.

So... does something like this deserve jail time? And, if so, how much? Or, if it doesn't, what would an appropriate form of punishment be? I'll admit that $400 seems largely out of whack with killing someone, even if it was an accident, but what would be a more suitable fine be?

Given the evidence that I can glean from the various news reports, I am inclined to think that the incident was entirely an unfortunate accident as well. However, that doesn't mean the perpetrator should go unpunished. When someone's action results in an unfortunate tragedy, they need to bear the consequences and responsibilities.

The biggest injustice here is that the crown attorney should never have accepted the plea bargain in the first place. The careless driving charge that the driver was originally given was entirely appropriate -- her careless driving resulted in a major accident where someone's life was lost, and whatever punishments will come out of that charge will certainly be a lot more suitable than the measly $400 penalty. I can't understand how the crown attorney could possibly find reasons to accept the plea bargain. Yes, going through the full legal process is going to cost society a little more money. But in this case, I think the extra expenses to go through the judicial process is fully justified. Justice don't necessarily come cheap, and they are often not cheap. But society owes it to the Shi's as well as all citizens that justice should be served.

[Slifer]

Welcome to Canada

[- kT]

Someone should forward the family to have phone and text records obtained to see if she was using it just before the accident.
To run over a white women and then flea as if nothing happened would surely be 40+ year life sentence for a black man in the USA. Dare me to find such a case.

wtf? do you even bother reading posts before you start your usual conspiracy theories? she didn't "flea" as if nothing happened, she was somehow unaware that she had just killed someone, and upon being informed of such she returned to the scene. what does race even have to do with anything?

the penalty should have been more than $400 for sure. AT LEAST a license suspension and a driver training course. that should've been the very bare minimim. how do you even hit and then run over somebody without realizing what you've just done? i can't even drive over a cardboard box without hearing it, she managed to drive over a person?

and the judge chastising the victim's impact statement.. the fuck? i wasn't aware it was the judge's impact statement. the victim was impacted as such, and yes, the driver did KILL his mother. with or without intent, accidental or not, she's no longer alive, and her death was caused by the driver. therefore, killed

condolences to the family of the grandmother, i can only imagine how outraged and saddened they must be. i hope this isn't the last we hear of this story
Posted via RS Mobile

[dangonay]

So what's the problem? It wasn't intentional, the driver wasn't drunk - it was just an accident. Should people go to prison for an accident?

While the son is understandably upset for his loss I also found his statements to be a bit ridiculous. "For the prosecutor, he needs to prevent this from happening again. Every year, so many pedestrians get killed. A $400 fine won’t do anything to change that." How in the hell is a prosecutor supposed to prevent accidents from happening with stronger punishments?

[CharlesInCharge]

"i can't even drive over a cardboard box without hearing it, she managed to drive over a person?"
You said it yourself, there is no other road sensation when running over a body with the car hopping and the wheels churning into skin and organs... it could very well be seen as suspicious and seeing that she had to be flagged down by witnesses.

Ive read minorities in the states can get sometime like twice the prison sentence for the same amount of pot then Caucasians... a black man who accidentally runs over someone and doesnt notice, isnt going to go home with $400 less in his pocket in North America I can bet you that... I just cant find any examples yet.

edit - at the end of the day I think this womens connections for what she is and because the victim was a minority... is why the government, via "banana republic" courts, catered to her.

[godwin]

The problem that most people forget is sending people to jail is a huge drain on taxpayer's money and society's productivity. The courts are not allowed to touch the assets of the offender to pay for anything.

A more equitable solution to the tax payer: is change the law and make it legal to confiscate property etc that the perpetrator owns at the time of the incident and distribute it as a judge see fit. (this eliminates the common loophole of people transferring assets to family / friends). Split that between prison costs and the victims. If people planned and spread assets before hand, that can be used in court as evidence for pre meditation.

However I just can't see any of our politicians to make this law change, because it involves a lot of departments and jurisdictions.

[dangonay]

You said it yourself, there is no other road sensation when running over a body with the car hopping and the wheels churning into skin and organs... it could very well be seen as suspicious and seeing that she had to be flagged down by witnesses.

Ive read minorities in the states can get sometime like twice the prison sentence for the same amount of pot then Caucasians... a black man who accidentally runs over someone and doesnt notice, isnt going to go home with $400 less in his pocket in North America I can bet you that... I just cant find any examples yet.

edit - at the end of the day I think this womens connections for what she is and because the victim was a minority... is why the government, via "banana republic" courts, catered to her.

Oh, fuck right off. Have you ever investigated a traffic fatality? I've been involved in several. You know what it feels like to drive over a person? I'll tell you - it's like driving over a curb. Exactly like driving over a curb. And I'm sure everyone here has done that at some point, especially when exiting a parkade or driveway and going onto a main road. And having felt that sensation before it would be very difficult to discern a curb from a person.

There's no "churning of skin and organs" unless the person is full throttle with the tires squealing. And if that was the case here then I'm sure she would have been charged with something more serious.

[Phil@rise]

Prison is uncalled for for this. It was an accident.
Was she negligent causing the death of someone with her actions? Yes. Is she a danger to the people around her? Yes. Should she be driving? NO!
The judge was stupid giving her a $400 fine as it implies the deceased was worth only $400 but the loss of life was worth so much more. That judge needs to be more creative in implementing suitable punishments.

[inv4zn]

I think the responses on here by some members are only because the post was by our beloved CIC.

I'm not defending him nor his usual antics, and I certainly don't give a shit what his motives were for posting this (if he had any) but this report is pretty upsetting.

Accidents happen, and it was certainly unintentional, but that doesn't mean the consequences should be so light. The judge has now told the victim's family that the old lady's life was worth $400, and even went to chastise them for showing emotion at a loss of a loved one. I'm not saying we should send the driver to jail or hand out more severe punishment, but this is pretty BS.

It may have been an unfortunate incident, but there is still someone responsible, who is now going to walk away.
We all know the justice system in Canada is a joke - and this case just further provides fuel for this - where is the justice in this?

[dangonay]

The problem that most people forget is sending people to jail is a huge drain on taxpayer's money and society's productivity. The courts are not allowed to touch the assets of the offender to pay for anything.

A more equitable solution to the tax payer: is change the law and make it legal to confiscate property etc that the perpetrator owns at the time of the incident and distribute it as a judge see fit. (this eliminates the common loophole of people transferring assets to family / friends). Split that between prison costs and the victims. If people planned and spread assets before hand, that can be used in court as evidence for pre meditation.

However I just can't see any of our politicians to make this law change, because it involves a lot of departments and jurisdictions.

This is what insurance is for. The family should receive a settlement for her death. Money doesn't compensate or make up for your loss, but it's at least something.

Seizing assets is a bad idea, IMO, as it's just another way to punish the person. And I see no reason to punish someone for an accident. In addition, rich people with more assets could pay more which makes the punishment different depending on your wealth. Go after the insurance company instead.

[Gazorcoop]

The penalty should be much harsher in my opinion. She struck and RAN OVER the lady. If she was careful at all, she would have stopped after hitting her, or even have stopped before the sidewalk. Who does that anymore these days?

[dangonay]

Prison is uncalled for for this. It was an accident.
Was she negligent causing the death of someone with her actions? Yes. Is she a danger to the people around her? Yes. Should she be driving? NO!
The judge was stupid giving her a $400 fine as it implies the deceased was worth only $400 but the loss of life was worth so much more. That judge needs to be more creative in implementing suitable punishments.
Why should she not be driving? Does she have an extensive record with multiple driving offenses? Is she blind? Too old to drive? Have a medical condition? Or do you think anyone who has an accident is no longer fit to drive?

[StylinRed]

it was a horrific tragic accident

and it was a plea bragain that the prosecutor accepted

the only place you'll find anything worse is maybe maybe some 3rd world country unlikely but maybe

want anything more you'll have to go vigilante


That judge needs to be more creative in implementing suitable punishments.

it was the prosecutors deal with the defense a judge has to give weight to that they don't have to accept it but usually they do

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Canadian_Criminal_Sentencing/Procedure/Plea_Bargain

[Jmac]

So it's apparently cheaper to accidentally run someone over than it is to go 40+ km/hr over the speed limit. Guess we know what people will start doing from now on.

:badpokerface:

Bad jokes aside, here's a conundrum for everyone here... Obviously this was an accident, pure and simple. There was no malicious intent, no pre-planning, no nothing. Just a momentary lapse of judgment that unfortunately cost an innocent woman her life.

So... does something like this deserve jail time? And, if so, how much? Or, if it doesn't, what would an appropriate form of punishment be? I'll admit that $400 seems largely out of whack with killing someone, even if it was an accident, but what would be a more suitable fine be?


Also, to the quotes in the OP talking about how she "didn't know" she hit someone... I can kinda believe it. I was driving my buddy's H1 wagon a few years back and we were rear ended. I genuinely didn't even know we were hit until the driver who hit us came out and knocked on the door, asking if we were okay. Admittedly it's a bit of a leap to compare that thing to what the the driver in the OP was in, but it is possible.
If you get caught drinking and driving or, as you mentioned, speeding excessively, you get HIGHER penalties than this ... because you MIGHT kill someone.

It would stand to reason that ACTUALLY KILLING SOMEONE should carry a higher penalty than potentially killing someone (excluding intentionally trying to run someone down with your car and failing to hit him/her, of course).

Loss of license, vehicle impoundment, hefty fines, and community service should be a start. In some countries in Europe, this carries a minimum 12 month prison sentence.

[accl]

Its shit like this that causes people to distrust the justice system =.=

just like if someone comes in my home trying to rob me and i threaten the burglar with a weapon i can get charged with something....

[Lomac]

I hope that article in the original post is an editorial, not a news piece. It's so full of loaded phrases and personal comments that to call it anything other than an editorial is an affront to legitimate reporting.

That said...

You said it yourself, there is no other road sensation when running over a body with the car hopping and the wheels churning into skin and organs... it could very well be seen as suspicious and seeing that she had to be flagged down by witnesses.

It may be "seen as suspicious," but it's no way intentional. As Dangonay said, it'll be just like driving over a curb. A human body doesn't suddenly become a water balloon as soon as a tire drives over it. I've had my foot run over a few times in the past and, you know what? It came away without injury. A little bruising, perhaps, but no sprains, no factures, no broken bones, no nothing.

No, what I suspect happened is that the victim got hit by the corner of a car and when her head struck the ground, that's likely what did it in. Unless anyone can verify differently, chances are the car only drove over the legs or an arm.

Ive read minorities in the states can get sometime like twice the prison sentence for the same amount of pot then Caucasians... a black man who accidentally runs over someone and doesnt notice, isnt going to go home with $400 less in his pocket in North America I can bet you that... I just cant find any examples yet.

edit - at the end of the day I think this womens connections for what she is and because the victim was a minority... is why the government, via "banana republic" courts, catered to her.

And I've read that Justin Beiber is an alien in disguise. You should know just as well that because it's in "print," doesn't make it legitimate.

[Iceman-19]

Someone got killed because of an accident. That happens all the time. It was not done on purpose, so what is sending someone to jail for it going to do? Why would you walk in front of a vehicle when you have the option to wait, or go behind it? The person driving could have thought he hit the curb leaving the driveway, who knows.

[Speed2K]

Wow, pretty sad. I agree that jail time is not warranted. Reading the article, I see why the fine was not much as she pleaded guilty to a this "Section 139 (1) of the Highway Traffic Act — failure to yield from a private roadway, which carries a maximum $500 fine." With the max being $500, why was she even allowed to negotiate less than that?!?!?!?!?!

The judge is a tool and needs to go to be sent for compassion counseling.

I guess the next step for the family is to sue.

[CharlesInCharge]

The old lady was walking on the side walk remember that, it wasnt at an intersection or break in the road.

The victims family needs to be properly compensated. This driver lady is probably worth more then a few million in assets alone.

[Hurricane]

First... I do not agree that this was 100% an 'accident.' It was a lack of awareness of ones surroundings while driving, which, when leading to an innocent, law-abiding, persons death, should result in a severe ban (5-10 years+) on driving. It was the drivers fault, as the main duty of care was with the driver.

The pedestrian likely has some blame as well. I think we as pedestrians also have a duty to be aware of potentially dangerous situations, like a person getting ready to enter a street and not looking in our direction. I've probably 'saved' my own life a number of times, just from that kind of awareness - I am sure most people have.

With the information presented however, we don't know a lot about the specific circumstances here, so its difficult to speculate any further.

All that said. She is a successful business executive. She probably hired a great lawyer, which is why they were able to negotiate a plea. It's not really about corruption and some NWO bullshit. Good lawyers have reputations and ties to the legal community. It is another form of punishment as well, as the defendant has to pay at least $10,000 extra.

That IS the way the legal system works - pay a bunch of money, and have your sentence reduced (sometimes to nothing). So she had $10,400 in 'fines' to pay.

The judge and the crown actually take the money paid to a lawyer into some kind of consideration, whether consciously or not - remember they were all lawyers accepting money from clients at some point.

Maybe she avoided a small driving prohibition, or a few points on her license, but this is not some major conspiracy as was suggested by the OP.

[Iceman-19]

The old lady was walking on the side walk remember that, it wasnt at an intersection or break in the road.

The victims family needs to be properly compensated. This driver lady is probably worth more then a few million in assets alone.

A vehicle always wins when they go head to head with a pedestrian, remember that. No point in being right, when you are dead right. I would suggest removing your head from your ass, but you are proving to be a sheep. Sheep it up Charles. Stupid Zionist.

[SkinnyPupp]

So if an old lady is worth more than $400, how much more? $500? $1000? $4,000,000,000?

It was an accident on both their parts, the difference being one was in a big heavy thing.

The lesson is, watch where you're going. Being on a sidewalk doesn't mean you are invincible to idiot drivers who aren't watching where they're going.

[accl]

everyone is all quick to judge.....until it happens to you. Whether you are the person in the car or the family of the person that got killed no one is ever really satisfied with the outcome most of the time...i think.

[89andy]

you guys are hilarious. defending the driver for running over an old lady that was walking ON THE SIDE WALK and some of you have the guts to say that the old lady should be more cautious on a SIDE WALK?

[FerrariEnzo]

The fine should have been a lot higher.. heck funeral costs alone are more then $400....
That driver should have been fined higher PLUS paying any funeral RELATED costs, I think at the very minimal would suffice... but no jail time part.. no comment...

[J____]

if the driver was asian and the victim was white, the outcome would be totally different...

that being said, how can you not know that you've hit a pedestrian? If there was enough force to kill someone, you'd definitely feel the impact/bump of running over someone's body. Unless she was on the phone with loud music on, I find it hard to believe.

[Hurricane]

you guys are hilarious. defending the driver for running over an old lady that was walking ON THE SIDE WALK and some of you have the guts to say that the old lady should be more cautious on a SIDE WALK?

Probably! When the crosswalk says walk and I jump out onto the street in front of a car running a red, you can tell me how hilarious it all is at the funeral. Idiot.

The fine should have been a lot higher.. heck funeral costs alone are more then $400....
That driver should have been fined higher PLUS paying any funeral RELATED costs, I think at the very minimal would suffice... but no jail time part.. no comment...

Its called Civil Court - I am sure the family will get a big payout from the business executive there. Did you think the family was going to collect the $400 violation ticket to use towards the funeral!? Idiot #2.

if the driver was asian and the victim was white, the outcome would be totally different...

that being said, how can you not know that you've hit a pedestrian? If there was enough force to kill someone, you'd definitely feel the impact/bump of running over someone's body. Unless she was on the phone with loud music on, I find it hard to believe.

Apparently from a witness to the accident...

I wish to put this accident scene into perspective, I was at the scene.

The driver was driving a brand new sport utility, which was visiting a private residence whom the owner was a chiropractor operating out of his home - on the east side of Bayview, just south of Finch.

The house itself has tall bushes down the side of the driveway, and along the sidewalk - giving a driver ZERO visibility of the sidewalk, in fact the back end of her vehicle would be on Bayview before she could fully see the sidewalk.

I also lived in a house near the scene, and also has similar bushes - I would have to inch my way beyond the tree line, though I always tried to back into my driveway - which isn't easy giving the high rate of speed common on Bayview and heavy traffic.

This accident occurred on a weekday around 10am - the victim, did not notice the vehicle backing up, and did not notice the tail lights, and did not check as she passed the bushes to make sure nothing was coming.

The driver, noticing a break in traffic, backed onto Bayview just as the victim stepped from behind the bushes into the back of the vehicle. It knocked the lady down into the slow lane, the vehicle passed her in reverse - now the victim who had been hit, but not run over - was sitting in the slow lane

The driver did not know she just hit the elderly lady with her bumper knocking her to the ground, she put her vehicle in drive, obviously she did not see the lady sitting on the road directly in front of her.

She ran the elderly lady over and dragged her for approximately 40 - 50 feet, the length of 1 house front. The victim was under the vehicle, with massive bleeding, and the driver was in shock.

Victim was deceased at the scene.

Driver at fault, victim partially at fault, height of the bushes played a huge roll in this accident, along with speed and volume, and backing onto a very busy street.

Sounds about right. Horribly unfortunate for the victim and her family. Make no mistake, the family will receive serious compensation for the accident - that doesn't bring anyone back, but I really don't understand the son's points. Did he really think the lady would do hard time?

[SkinnyPupp]

you guys are hilarious. defending the driver for running over an old lady that was walking ON THE SIDE WALK and some of you have the guts to say that the old lady should be more cautious on a SIDE WALK?
I'm not "defending' anything, and I am not blaming the lady either. Accidents happen. If the driver was more careful, it wouldn't have happened. If the lady was more careful, it wouldn't have happened.

But the thing is, peole want to lynch the driver for the accident.. so I say, what is the correct result you are looking for? Driver pays 100% of her salary to the children for the rest of her life? Driver pays what the lady was making? Now you are putting a dollar amount on a life.. you have to then argue what someone is "worth". I think a lot of people would say that life is priceless.. so then what do you do? Should the driver go to jail? Be sentenced to death? Become a surrogate mother?

:fulloffuck:

The family can still sue for as much as they deem fit. Maybe they just want enough to pay for the funeral, or maybe they have a 'value' set in mind that will make them feel better. The bottom line is that the driver was not found to be criminally negligent.

[89andy]

I'm not "defending' anything, and I am not blaming the lady either. Accidents happen. If the driver was more careful, it wouldn't have happened. If the lady was more careful, it wouldn't have happened.

But the thing is, peole want to lynch the driver for the accident.. so I say, what is the correct result you are looking for? Driver pays 100% of her salary to the children for the rest of her life? Driver pays what the lady was making? Now you are putting a dollar amount on a life.. you have to then argue what someone is "worth". I think a lot of people would say that life is priceless.. so then what do you do? Should the driver go to jail? Be sentenced to death? Become a surrogate mother?

:fulloffuck:

The family can still sue for as much as they deem fit. Maybe they just want enough to pay for the funeral, or maybe they have a 'value' set in mind that will make them feel better. The bottom line is that the driver was not found to be criminally negligent.

never did I say that the fine should be higher or whatever, that is not the main thing here. The point is all the driver has to do is pay some fines (regardless how $$$ it is, not the main point anymore) and gets to walk out with no ACTUAL penalties. Some people said suspension from driving, community service, etc. etc. That is what constitutes as a real penalty to people with wealth.

[SkinnyPupp]

never did I say that the fine should be higher or whatever, that is not the main thing here. The point is all the driver has to do is pay some fines (regardless how $$$ it is, not the main point anymore) and gets to walk out with no ACTUAL penalties. Some people said suspension from driving, community service, etc. etc. That is what constitutes as a real penalty to people with wealth.
Punishing an accident doesn't do anyone any good. You punish malicious intent, not lack of awareness. She already has to live that her stupidity killed someone, maybe that is a lot of punishment in itself.

[subordinate]

I often see huge shrubs/hedges, and always figured something like this would happen.

I don't get why the City doesn't actively go around and cut into half the hedge. Dangerous for cars/pedestrians.

Or the homeowner for fact. Don't muncipalities fine residences for overgrown grass? It should apply in hedges/shrubs that impose a hazard.