[iEatClams]

I agree that there needs to be reform, too many people immigrating their parents and grandparents who do not pay taxes, and use up all our resources (Healthcare, welfare etc). Hospital wait times are already long as it is, no need to further burden the system.

Not that I think businesses should be making all the decisions though. Harper likes the term net benefit, and it should a "net benefit" to all Canadians overall, not a specific group.








Immigrants a 'fiscal burden,' Fraser Institute report suggests - British Columbia - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2013/08/29/bc-fraser-immigration.html)



new report suggests immigrants are imposing a "fiscal burden" of about $20 billion a year on Canadian taxpayers and recommends a number of radical changes to the country's immigration selection process, including bringing an end to the sponsorship of parents and grandparents.

The report, released today by the Fraser Institute, also proposes that the current immigrant selection process, which relies heavily on political considerations, be replaced with one that relies primarily on the private sector and labour market conditions.

"I recommend we get rid of the current system altogether, because it relies on decisions made by politicians on issues which are virtually unknowable and we substitute for it the judgment of business people," said Herbert Grubel, a senior fellow at the Fraser Institute and author of the report.

"People who employ workers, who know how much they can pay and have the government only make sure that the system works well and that the pay that is offered to these workers is at least enough to pay for the services they receive."

Canada's foreign-born population soars to 6.8 million
While Grubel argues that immigration of parents and grandparents be stopped completely, he says the changes should be phased in by making it applicable only to new immigrants arriving after the adoption of the proposed policy, allowing immigrants already in Canada to continue with the sponsorship of their parents and grandparents.

But immigration lawyer Zool Suleman said the study fails to look at many other factors, including when parents and grandparents contribute to Canadian society in often intangible ways.

He also referenced a 2011 Simon Fraser University study that found immigrants impose a far lower annual cost of about $450 per immigrant, or about $2 billion per year.

Canada selects the largest proportion of its immigrants using an objective points system that reflects the candidates' education, work experience, language competence, and other indicators that are linked with higher earnings.

Individuals selected on this basis are called "principal immigrants." In 2011, they numbered 64,397, representing 25.8 per cent of the 248,744 immigrants that year.

The principal immigrants were accompanied by their dependants (spouses and underage children) numbering 91,724.

The government refers to the principal immigrants and their dependants as "economic immigrants" who in 2011 numbered 156,121 and represented 62.8 per cent of all immigrants admitted.

"Parents and grandparents do a lot of undocumented, necessary work inside and outside of the house allowing Canadians to actually be out in the labour force," Suleman told CBC News.

"Let alone intangible, important things around values and family structure and trying to enshrine a variety of things that are important to Canada."

Such radical changes to the immigration selection process could result in the loss of highly skilled immigrants to Canada, Suleman warned.

"Over the years what I've seen is, many of the highly skilled immigrants who come and the middle skilled immigrants who come here clearly want the family to be part of the immigration plan, meaning parents and grandparents," he said.

"So I think that if they were not able to bring their parents and grandparents, Canada may not be in the top tier of countries that immigrants select to come to."

In May, Citizenship and Immigration Minister Jason Kenney announced new criteria for sponsoring parents and grandparents to come to Canada that are aimed at ensuring elderly immigrants don't end up on welfare or in social housing.

Don't bring parents here for welfare, Kenney says
"I looked at the detailed steps he has taken and they’re all the right direction," Grubel said of Kenney's reforms. "But I am skeptical that they will in fact succeed in bringing in immigrants that will, in fact, pay for the government services that they consume and will not impose a burden on taxpayers."

The report also advocates for a public inquiry about the number of immigrants that are admitted into Canada on economic and humanitarian grounds.

Grubel said his research also indicated that immigrants who arrived in Canada after 1986 have been less successful economically than those who arrived before that time.



Fraser Institute report says immigrants, refugees impose ?fiscal burden? on Canada, urges reform | National Post (http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/08/29/fraser-institute-report-says-immigrants-refugees-impose-fiscal-burden-on-canada-urges-reform/)



OTTAWA — The Harper government recognizes and has taken action to deal with the “fiscal burden” imposed by Canada’s immigrants and refugees, but the government’s sweeping reforms will only make a minor dent in newcomers’ estimated $20 billion-a-year cost on society, according to a provocative report published Thursday.

Economist Herb Grubel of the Vancouver-based Fraser Institute argues that Ottawa should take more “radical” steps by phasing out the sponsorship of parents and grandparents, and by bringing in an employer-driven system to attract economic immigrants.

And the government should launch a public debate to determine whether Canada should be consistently bringing in roughly a quarter of a million newcomers a year, according to Mr. Grubel, a former caucus colleague of Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s after they both became MPs under the Reform banner following the 1993 election.

Related
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Ottawa blasts Quebec for ‘fraud’ program that ‘takes money’ from rich immigrants who move to other provinces
“The current government recognized the existence of this fiscal problem and initiated a series of new policies to reduce it,” Mr. Grubel noted in his report, which assesses Jason Kenney’s reforms from 2008 until his shuffle out of the immigration portfolio last month.

Postmedia files
Postmedia filesThe federal government has brought in on average about 250,000 immigrants and refugees annually, and in 2013 is expecting between 240,000 and 265,000
The new policies on economic and family-class immigration, and especially a tougher approach to asylum-seekers, will have some success in reducing the so-called burden caused by immigrants who cost more in social services and general government expenses than they contribute in taxes.

But Mr. Grubel said Canadians should be allowed to debate the broader question of just how many new Canadians are needed in coming years.

The federal government has brought in on average about 250,000 immigrants and refugees annually, and in 2013 is expecting between 240,000 and 265,000.

“No explicit economic rationale exists in the economic literature or government documents to justify the current level of annual immigration. Nor are there explicit discussions of its cultural and social implications,” according to Mr. Grubel.

A broad public policy debate involving politicians, academics and interest groups, whether it results in lower or higher immigrants, would at least ensure there is a “better informed and more rational Canadian immigration policy,” he concluded.

[lowside67]

"Parents and grandparents do a lot of undocumented, necessary work inside and outside of the house allowing Canadians to actually be out in the labour force," Suleman told CBC News.
What a load of shit. While I'm sure they do a lot of undocumented work that doesn't result in any tax revenue for the country, my parents and grandparents have always worked and yet that didn't make it any harder for me to go out and get a job... in fact, if both parents are working then they often employ somebody like a nanny who DOES pay taxes instead of their grandparents who come and then I end up paying for their healthcare...

[StylinRed]

Fraser Institute? :fuckthatshit: the conservative think tank that has blatantly lied in the past

[Phil@rise]

Let the parent and grandparents come in but they should be of working age and must work to qualify for health care and pension. Many families from foreign countries send their younger family members here to later bring in the older generation just to take advantage of our healthcare and pension. That there is the unfair burden to Canadians who have invested in these systems all their lives.

[Redlines_Daily]

^EXACTLY. Agree 100%

[Manic!]

Fraser Institute? :fuckthatshit: the conservative think tank that has blatantly lied in the past

My thoughts exactly.

[Manic!]

Let the parent and grandparents come in but they should be of working age and must work to qualify for health care and pension. Many families from foreign countries send their younger family members here to later bring in the older generation just to take advantage of our healthcare and pension. That there is the unfair burden to Canadians who have invested in these systems all their lives.

So how does some who has not worked here get a pension?

My problem is highly educated immigrants having to work at unskilled jobs.

[quasi]

So how does some who has not worked here get a pension?

My problem is highly educated immigrants having to work at unskilled jobs.

That isn't just an immigrant problem, so many educated people not finding decent jobs. That said not having english as a first language would be a huge detriment when looking for work qualified or not.

On the subject of the original article if you don't contribute you should not be able to use the social systems in place for free.

[dinosaur]

My problem is highly educated immigrants having to work at unskilled jobs.

Yeah, I have a problem with this as well....I have known several doctors, nurses, and other healthcare workers not be "qualified" to work in Canada simply because they are from India.

This is a true shame when you think about all those small communities in the interior and north screaming for new physicians.

[Gridlock]

The Fraser Institute runs a hard right. Everyone needs to know this going in. Their "role" apart from what it says on the website is to shape dialogue and open the population to certain conservative ideas.

In this case, yes, we all know that grandma and grandpa aren't going to "contribute" per se to the country. But the original kids do. And seriously, who wants to leave their family behind?

When I moved to BC from NS, I followed my mom, who in turn followed my sister. As a result, I moved her 14 years ago and have never been back, whereas so many other people end up returning home after a couple of years..not because anything changed at home, they still can't find work and have a productive career. No, they go back home because whether you have an ocean between you and family, or a country...its fucking hard!

[Manic!]

That isn't just an immigrant problem, so many educated people not finding decent jobs. That said not having english as a first language would be a huge detriment when looking for work qualified or not.



We have a shortage of doctors yet we have top doctors from countries like India who have no problem speaking English working as security guards.

We also have large amounts of seniors from out east who never put into MRSP in BC moving here and using our healthcare.

[Traum]

We also have large amounts of seniors from out east who never put into MRSP in BC moving here and using our healthcare.
With the nicest and mildest weather in the entire country, this is unfortunately a problem BC cannot avoid. As Canadians, seniors and retirees have every right to relocate anywhere in the the country as they wish. To tackle it, we really need the federal government to back us up on it. Ottawa is obviously aware of the issue, but whether they offer any real tangible support is another thing.

[meowjinboo]

Really, And how about the future investment? Sure alot of new immigrants require assistance at first, but look at our parents who immigrated here. How many are successful homeowners that don't need government handouts?

[meowjinboo]

Yeah, I have a problem with this as well....I have known several doctors, nurses, and other healthcare workers not be "qualified" to work in Canada simply because they are from India.

This is a true shame when you think about all those small communities in the interior and north screaming for new physicians.

Then why did they immigrate here in the first place?

Maybe they were shit doctors back home.

[Manic!]

Then why did they immigrate here in the first place?

Maybe they were shit doctors back home.

Maybe they were top doctors back home but want a better life for there kids.

[meowjinboo]

Maybe they were top doctors back home but want a better life for there kids.

If they were top doctors back home, i'm sure they could pay for the best schools back in india.

I'm not denying the doctors lobby is extremely tight here and well run.

But maybe I'm just being a little safe when I say that I wouldn't want my doctor coming from a country where corruption is rampant?

I trust doctors from "good" universities and med schools.

[Redlines_Daily]

Really, And how about the future investment? Sure alot of new immigrants require assistance at first, but look at our parents who immigrated here. How many are successful homeowners that don't need government handouts?

Talking about immigrants that don't work or don't contribute to the net benefit of Canada.

Then why did they immigrate here in the first place?

Maybe they were shit doctors back home.

Medical degrees and law degrees from certain countries are not recognized in Canada. They obviously moved here seeking a better life, and many of these "shit doctors" are highly educated, well rounded individuals who work medial jobs to support their family and contribute. Hats off to them in my books.

[meowjinboo]

Medical degrees and law degrees from certain countries are not recognized in Canada. They obviously moved here seeking a better life, and many of these "shit doctors" are highly educated, well rounded individuals who work medial jobs to support their family and contribute. Hats off to them in my books.

This is the point I'm getting at.

Just like how alot of my classmates from highschool went to the bahamas to go to med school and then cry that they can't get residency back home.

Well no shit, everyone gets accepted there. The only place they can usually find residency is in the USA.

[Redlines_Daily]

Sigh...ok.

[dinosaur]

People also leave countries for political reasons....you seem to have to idea that this issue is black and white. It is not. Your attitude about this issue come off as you being pretty naive.

[meowjinboo]

People are leave countries for political reasons....you seem to have to idea that this issue is black and white. It is not. Your attitude about this issue come off as you being pretty naive.

How am I being Naive?

They don't accept their degrees for a reason. Again. Would you want your doctor to have his med degree from a country known for corruption? Maybe his father paid to get the degree. Maybe it's fake? Their universities might not have the same check and balances.

Great they come to Canada, but all the complaints I see about engineers and junk doesn't mean shit.

Alot of engineers get headhunted from other countries for jobs in Canada. They come here knowing full well that they can't get a job doing what they were doing back home.

[meowjinboo]

Sigh...ok.

I'm trying hard not to be a dick, and be open about it. But the honest truth is I have 2 friends in med school right now 1 aspiring to be and 1 who already graduated from a university in the Bahamas. The reality is the 2 that are doing med school here (My roommate at UofC and my friend also at UofC) constantly trash on the doctors that do their degrees at such universities. They know damn well that just about anybody gets accepted to those universities. Sure they find work (in the USA) but their healthcare system has different standards as it does here.

Again i'm fully aware of the doctor's lobby we have here. Were probably the only country that wont let nurses become anesthesiologists.

[dinosaur]

It is naive because you seem to view this issue as black and white. North American medical system=good, everywhere else=corrupt and bad.

There are skilled surgeons all over the world. There are advances to medicine all over the world. People are treated for disease all over the world. There are excellent medical schools all over the world.

I do think there needs to be a basic medical exam for those coming from other countries who want to practice medicine here, but I don't think we need to stone-wall these people.

[quasi]

We have a shortage of doctors yet we have top doctors from countries like India who have no problem speaking English working as security guards.

We also have large amounts of seniors from out east who never put into MRSP in BC moving here and using our healthcare.

Difference with the seniors moving cross country is you'd be granted the same service if you went to eastern Canada even if you didn't pay into it. If I moved to India are they going to provide with free or near free healthcare? Saskatchewan you pay nothing and you get the same service as here no such thing as MSP premiums.

[Manic!]

Difference with the seniors moving cross country is you'd be granted the same service if you went to eastern Canada even if you didn't pay into it. If I moved to India are they going to provide with free or near free healthcare? Saskatchewan you pay nothing and you get the same service as here no such thing as MSP premiums.

The problem is more people are moving from the east to the west then people are moving from the west to the east.

[Traum]

The problem is more people are moving from the east to the west then people are moving from the west to the east.
If you are only talking about seniors, that would be true. But overall, we also have a ton of working age people moving over to the East as they progress up the corporate ladder. I'd have to do some googling to see what the net numbers are like.

As far as professional qualifications are concerned, given that Canada is part of the Commonwealth, I think it is reasonable to make profession re-qualification / re-certification easier for those coming from the Commonwealth. Currently, I don't think Commonwealth countries get this break.

[meowjinboo]

I move to calgary on monday :D

[dark0821]

I dont want to get into this argument/issue, frankly I dont think I know enough to really have a well thought out opinion.

So I will just type my own part of the experience. I disagree about the article regarding cutting off immigration for grandparents all together. Even though I know and acknowledge there are people who are free loading off the Canadian system, I do to think there needs to be some kind of reform in written policies. Do I have a solution? No I dont.

Back to my own case, My wife and I just gave birth to our daughter, and we did bring over the mother's grandmother from China to help with taking care of the new born. I am still working full time, my wife is on maternity leave atm. And I think having a grandparent over here can make sure my wife goes back to full time when her maternity leave is over. And also saves us close to $1000 a month on day care. So yes, given the same situation, I would bring over our grandparent again and again, and personally if the system was changed to the one being proposed, that would have created huge difficulties in my situation. So I for one, is thankful that we still have that option.

//end rant

[quasi]

I move to calgary on monday :D

I have a couple friends leaving next weekend just sold there place and another couple that left last year. Seems like the place to be especially if you're getting that oil money or in the trades.

[Phil@rise]

Foreign skilled workers comming here is not a burden on our systems nor on us taxpayers. Thats a sacrifice they took comming here. If an Indian Doctor comes here and becomes a doctor off of their existing credentials then that becomes a conflict of interest. School in India is far cheaper then school here so what would stop Canadians from going to India or some other much cheaper country for education purposes and comming back. All of a sudden we have a field of medical professionals educated to a different standard and with some focus on issues not so pertinent to Canadian health issues. Not to mention the crumble of our Canadian education system. We'd be unable to teach our own.
Thats all a side issue to what OP started but I'm happy our government and professional industries dont validate foreign education and trades.

[xpl0sive]

what about the people who come here, collect unemployment without ever paying into it, and work for cash under the table? Blatant abuse of the Canadian system....

[finbar]

Xenophobia cha cha cha

I've built too many clinics, Kins, London drugs bla bla blas to care.

Taxed the living shit out of my paycheque, purchases, gas, taxes on taxes, on it goes.

Fuckit

Just some bollix out to make political/advertising hay



There, all better now.
:D

[Manic!]

what about the people who come here, collect unemployment without ever paying into it, and work for cash under the table? Blatant abuse of the Canadian system....

You can't collect EI without working first.

[meowjinboo]

I have a couple friends leaving next weekend just sold there place and another couple that left last year. Seems like the place to be especially if you're getting that oil money or in the trades.

I think if you are a young professional, its the place to go.

I'm not scared and I'm going in cold.

[Marshall Placid]

The Fraser Institute runs a hard right. Everyone needs to know this going in. Their "role" apart from what it says on the website is to shape dialogue and open the population to certain conservative ideas.

In this case, yes, we all know that grandma and grandpa aren't going to "contribute" per se to the country. But the original kids do. And seriously, who wants to leave their family behind?

When I moved to BC from NS, I followed my mom, who in turn followed my sister. As a result, I moved her 14 years ago and have never been back, whereas so many other people end up returning home after a couple of years..not because anything changed at home, they still can't find work and have a productive career. No, they go back home because whether you have an ocean between you and family, or a country...its fucking hard!

Agreed.

The Fraser Institute's article fails to point out many, many other factors that can be quantified, but not in Government reports.

These include:
1- Sales tax the parents and grandparents pay to purchase items, including food, lodgings, etc.
2- Taking care of dependants so that the employable immigrants can go and work.
3- Skilled workers would think twice about coming to Canada without the inclusion of the option to bring in their parents/grandparents.


Really, And how about the future investment? Sure alot of new immigrants require assistance at first, but look at our parents who immigrated here. How many are successful homeowners that don't need government handouts?

I agree that some immigrants might start out "in the red" but some, if not most, will pay their fair share of taxes from income tax, sales tax, property tax, etc.


Let the parent and grandparents come in but they should be of working age and must work to qualify for health care and pension. Many families from foreign countries send their younger family members here to later bring in the older generation just to take advantage of our healthcare and pension. That there is the unfair burden to Canadians who have invested in these systems all their lives.

Yes, many families do bring their dependants (parents/grand-parents), and they do give an unfair burden to Canadians.

But, the net effect is net positive, in the black for the Government.

Why?
1-The young family members or employable members who look for jobs and get jobs get taxed.
2- The older generation must eat, sleep, and be clothed (food, shelter, and clothing).

So, they pay sales tax, property tax, etc.

For example:
Lets take into account 2 grand-parents ONLY (without taking into account the younger employable members):

Government spending for these 2 grand-parents, who need medical assistance due to... lets say... diabetes or another long-term chronic health problem.

These are estimates/guesses (for the #s):
1- Doctor visits, six times a year - $100 per visit, $600 total.
2- Emergency-room visits, once a year? - $1,000?
3- And, contrary to what I thought I knew, recent seniors/grandparents who come to Canada cannot collect most type of assistance payments from the Government.

Income Assistance - For Seniors - Service Canada (http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/audiences/seniors/benefits.shtml)

Most, if not all, of the benefits only apply to seniors that have lived here for 10 or more years.

4-There could be more spending on the Government's part, but I can't think of them right now.

Contribution by the grandparents include "straight-up" taxes which they pay directly to the local, provincial, and Federal governments.
AND:
The money they spend stimulate the economy which creates jobs, and using the multiplier effect, boosts the economy.

1- Sales tax for food items and clothing - Spend $4,000 per year on food items = 5% = $200.
2- Other sales tax for other items. $200
3- Property tax for the houses they live in (varies, so I will leave this blank, around 0.3% to 0.6% of assessed value)
4- Transportation costs.
5- Medical services plan, for seniors? Lets estimate it at $100 per month, or $1,200 per year.

So............ lets just agree that the effect, based on taxes paid by the grandparents and direct spending by the government is the same... or roughly positive for the Government (meaning the grandparents pay more to the Government than the Government pays to the grandparents).

Add this:
The money the grandparents spend on retail goods and food creates jobs, so the end result is that the grandparents stimulate the economy and pay out more than the Government pays to them.

Rough conclusion?
The grandparents spend more in Canada than the Government pays to grandparents (from medical visits, disbursements, etc.).

Now, these are just the numbers.

You have to include the fact that the grandparents take care of OTHER kids/dependants so the employable adults can go and find jobs and get taxes, etc.

So, the grandparents/parents sponsorship program is a net-positive process/program for Canadians, the Government, and everybody!

-------------------

What about the unskilled workers "stealing" jobs away from other workers?

Or... dare I say... skilled workers stealing jobs away from other skilled workers?

The unemployment rate is 7.2%:

CBC News - Unemployment statistics (http://www.cbc.ca/news/interactives/unemployment-stats/index.html)

It's low.

There are enough jobs for everybody, skilled or unskilled.

Compare to other developed countries, in Europe:

List of sovereign states in Europe by unemployment rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We are doing better than most first-world European countries.

And.........

I truly believe this is due to Canada's effective immigration policy.

That is where the Fraser Institute is dead wrong about their stance of removing or phasing out the grandparents/parents sponsorship programs.

But... they are correct in identifying the fact there are so many foreign-born Canadians: 6.8 million+.

That is a good thing, at least in my point of view, based on the previously mentioned reasons.

This proves that increased immigration will only benefit Canadians in the LONG-RUN through job creation, taxation of said new jobs, taxation of sponsored parents/grandparents (sales tax, etc.), sponsored parents providing care for young dependants [so adults can go and find work], etc.

Canada has a long history of welcoming immigrants.

In fact, Canada was built and founded on the foundation and idea of immigration.

Removing the sponsorship program is ill advised for the economy in the long-run.

[SkinnyPupp]

If you are only talking about seniors, that would be true. But overall, we also have a ton of working age people moving over to the East as they progress up the corporate ladder. I'd have to do some googling to see what the net numbers are like.

This makes the problem much worse actually

[Traum]

^^ There is literally nothing we can do to change the situation though. We can't change the fact that the west coast, with Victoria and Vancouver in particular, has the best weather across the entire country. Nor can we change the fact that the east coast, with Toronto and Montreal specifically, is the financial and business center of the country. And then there is our next door neighbour, Alberta, offering the most progressive economic growth and poaching a lot of our younger talents with their numerous employment opportunities.

This is why I said earlier in the thread that Ottawa needs to support BC.

[quasi]

I think if you are a young professional, its the place to go.

I'm not scared and I'm going in cold.

My cousin has been there for about 15 years and he makes a gross amount of money doing IT work for an oil company. The same job he does there would pay him maybe 1/5 of what he makes if he was doing it in any other sector but he has to travel 4-5 days a week and the money won't last forever.

[SkinnyPupp]

^^ There is literally nothing we can do to change the situation though. We can't change the fact that the west coast, with Victoria and Vancouver in particular, has the best weather across the entire country. Nor can we change the fact that the east coast, with Toronto and Montreal specifically, is the financial and business center of the country. And then there is our next door neighbour, Alberta, offering the most progressive economic growth and poaching a lot of our younger talents with their numerous employment opportunities.

This is why I said earlier in the thread that Ottawa needs to support BC.
Make immigrants ineligible for pension and health care if they enter before age 50?

[Traum]

Make immigrants ineligible for pension and health care if they enter before age 50?
The things i mentioned previously aren't strictly related to just immigrants -- they really apply to how things generally are in Canada.

With the way the CPP is structured, people already cannot get very much out of it if they haven't spent years contributing to it, so we've got that base covered. OAS also has the 10/20 year rule that offers some protection against free loaders, so we are kind of covered there as well.

For health care, I don't think that can be denied to immigrants. It is pretty much a basic right that citizens and permanent residents are entitled to. If we try to change that, I'm sure someone will mount a legal challenge and win. But the Conservative government is kind of changing that by shifting immigration preferences away from the family reunion type of immigration. In its place, we now have the 10 year super visa for family reunification purposes.

[bing]

Government spending for these 2 grand-parents, who need medical assistance due to... lets say... diabetes or another long-term chronic health problem.

These are estimates/guesses (for the #s):
1- Doctor visits, six times a year - $100 per visit, $600 total.
2- Emergency-room visits, once a year? - $1,000?
3- And, contrary to what I thought I knew, recent seniors/grandparents who come to Canada cannot collect most type of assistance payments from the Government.

Income Assistance - For Seniors - Service Canada (http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/audiences/seniors/benefits.shtml)

Not sure how accurate this is but read this in the Globe & Mail once:


Average annual health-care costs for Canadians between 15 and 64 amounted to $2,500 in 2010, according to the Canadian Institute for Health Information. Between 65 and 69, they hit $6,200; at 80 and above, $20,000.

This budget will keep Ottawa safe, dump on the provinces - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/flahertys-house-is-in-order-but-the-provinces-will-pay/article10019010/)

[Manic!]

FYI: If someone comes here on super visa they have to pay for there own health insurance.

Also when Tommy Douglas introduced government funded heath care to Saskatchewan the doctors went on strike. Tommy Douglas brought in Doctors from other countries. Today those doctors would be banned from practicing in Canada.

[iEatClams]

I do think there needs to be a basic medical exam for those coming from other countries who want to practice medicine here, but I don't think we need to stone-wall these people.

This, there needs to be an international standard. Many people don't trust degrees from foreign countries because many times, the degrees were "bought" through corruption and knowing the right people.

I know in many of the countries you can pay off professors, politicians and other licensing officials to get licenses. for ex, some nurses and care aids come here with licenses and certificates that are not fully legit, and just by taking with them you can tell they are not as fully qualified as a person from Canada would be.
This is unfortunate for the top doctors/professionals that are truly talented as they are lumped in with the bad apples.

An international standard would eliminate this problem.

[iEatClams]

The Fraser Institute runs a hard right. Everyone needs to know this going in. Their "role" apart from what it says on the website is to shape dialogue and open the population to certain conservative ideas.


quoted as this should have been a disclaimer on my initial thread post.

the Fraser Institute has been involved in some ethical violations and controversies in the past as well.

[Gridlock]

^^It's a classic technique to state the worst, and settle for what you want.

"Fuck your old immigrants"

Well..maybe we'll settle for a few more restrictions on who we let in, and how many years you have to be here before you can sponsor people.

[Energy]

Just like how alot of my classmates from highschool went to the bahamas to go to med school and then cry that they can't get residency back home.


I have no sympathy for people like this that take the back door route.

But if someone comes from overseas, is actually from there, and has qualifications from top schools like Oxford or Cambridge then that is another story.

edit: dinosaur, you'd be ok with someone who wasn't able to get into medical school in Canada and then going to a degree mill in the Bahamas treating you over a Canadian doctor or a foreign doctor with an education from a respected institution? I would be a bit uncomfortable with that especially as its my health we are talking about here. There's a reason Canadian standards are high and they were not able to attend med school in Canada. And I'm not saying all foreign trained doctors are not good either.

[bing]

There is a process for certifying foreign trained doctors (my uncle before he immigrated went to med school in Taiwan, but immediately after graduating took the exam for both the US and Canada successfully while he was still fresh - he later became head of emergency). The issue may be more about the difficulty of the process itself. Anyone remember the taco luis owner, the ophthalmologist? he said it is an 18 month wait for residency since they favor locally over foreign trained (as should be expected) and after 10 years of trying, he gave up.

[El Bastardo]

I think if you are a young professional, its the place to go.



Perhaps, but what are YOU going to be doing there?

[meowjinboo]

Perhaps, but what are YOU going to be doing there?

oil and gas related.