[stewie]

crack pipe vending machine (http://www.theprovince.com/news/vancouver/Vancouver+home+Canada+first+crack+pipe+vending+mac hines/9490689/story.html)

They used to dispense sandwiches and candies but now these vending machines spit out crack pipes.

They’re found at two locations in the Downtown Eastside, at the Drug Users Resource Centre on East Cordova and Washington Market on East Hastings.

Much like the idea of giving out free needles, it’s hoped that by offering crack pipes for 25 cents apiece it will improve health and safety on the streets of the DTES.

“We’re not quite there yet with pipes, where we are with needles,” Kailin See, director of the DUR Centre said. “But to us, it’s all the same. We need to ensure people aren’t spreading diseases, and keeping people’s mouths and bodies as healthy as possible.”

Crack pipes can cost $5 or even more on the street, depending on availability and the desperation of the smoker.

That can put people, especially women, at risk, either trading sex or drugs for pipes or just generally putting them in harm’s way, See said.

Selling the Pyrex pipes, which are safer than regular glass, at cost serves another purpose: it saturates the market, therefore acting to drive down the price on the street.

“You can come in and get as many as you need,” See said. “For us, this is a health intervention and a safety intervention, through and through.”

Just as a kit is provided with clean needles, the crack pipes come with their own paraphernalia: Push sticks, Brillo, screen, mouthpiece and alcohol swabs.

The Centre has been distributing clean needles and crack pipes for ages, but the vending machine idea is six months old.

“There’s not a lot out there for smokers, and there needs to be,” See said. “I am not a health-care professional, but as I understand you can contract (Hepatitus, HIV, herpes) by sharing a pipe, especially if you have sores in your mouth or your pipe is chipped.

“So there’s blood, or there’s saliva, bodily fluids are exchanged, there’s risk. That’s primarily why we do this

“This is all about health care and keeping people safe.”



Vancouver keepin it classy as always...

[RiceIntegraRS]

lace crack pipes with Ricin, everyone in DTES dies, and our homeless problems are over.

[Kilinim]

Easy, Walter
Posted via RS Mobile

[Bouncing Bettys]

In a sense, addressing an issue rather than ignoring it, could be regarded as classy.

[LightKeeper]

Screw them crack heads.
I'm gonna buy all of them for 25 cents each and sell it to the crack heads for 10$.

All they ever do is break into people's cars and steal sh!t

[Energy]

Maybe if they can buy their crack pipes they'll be less likely to break into cars and steal shit?

Its not a perfect solution but I see it doing more good than bad.

[twstd_reality]

Maybe if they can buy their crack pipes they'll be less likely to break into cars and steal shit?

Its not a perfect solution but I see it doing more good than bad.

Well.... They'd have to break into those same cars and steal shit just to buy the crack regardless. If I were a crackhead and I had money to buy crack, or a pipe, I'd buy the crack and reuse the pipe. SAVE YOUR MONEY!....... for crack.

[fliptuner]

Sell them to the dealers.

Free pipe with purchase.

[elwell]

Maybe if they can buy their crack pipes they'll be less likely to break into cars and steal shit?

Its not a perfect solution but I see it doing more good than bad.

WRONG, they gonna break into cars more often now to get that damn quarter to buy that pipe, mane

[ae101]

this is the dumbest shit ever.........i guess this is the Canadian government work lol

[multicartual]

The DTES is adult daycare, these cheap and safe crack pipes actually save the government money in the long term.

[twitchyzero]

aren't pipes reusable? It's not like a needle that'll go dull?

[Foralark]

http://cdn.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/crack.gifhttp://cdn.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/crack2.gif

[stewie]

The DTES is adult daycare, these cheap and safe crack pipes actually save the government money in the long term.

Saves them money and causes you a 300$ deductable every time they smash through your passenger window to steal a plastic coffee mug, 3$ in change, and a pack of gum. But hey! It's worth it! Now they'll only have to break into 5-6 cars to get the money they need to buy the crack, not 8-10 thanks to their 25cent pipe!

Stupidest thing ever.
Posted via RS Mobile

[multicartual]

Saves them money and causes you a 300$ deductable every time they smash through your passenger window to steal a plastic coffee mug, 3$ in change, and a pack of gum. But hey! It's worth it! Now they'll only have to break into 5-6 cars to get the money they need to buy the crack, not 8-10 thanks to their 25cent pipe!

Stupidest thing ever.
Posted via RS Mobile


It is the cost of freedom... if we allowed the government to "disappear" addicts and other undesirables our society would quickly turn into something out of a horror novel...


My suggestion is to simply find legal ways to profit off people's vices so you can live in a nice neighborhood as to avoid the unwashed masses!

[dvst8]

I don't mind this idea. Their will never be an end to drug use. So lets make it safe rather than spread disease.

[stewie]

It is the cost of freedom... if we allowed the government to "disappear" addicts and other undesirables our society would quickly turn into something out of a horror novel...


My suggestion is to simply find legal ways to profit off people's vices so you can live in a nice neighborhood as to avoid the unwashed masses!

Or our society would turn into a utopia :p

Making pipes that easily accessible is wrong. Some teenagers walk past it, get curious, figure why not...it's only 25cents. Grab a few, walk half a block to buy some crack thinking it'll be a cool 1 time thing....bam some parents now have a crack head for a son. What if it was your son/daughter? I'm sure a LOT of us had smoked cigarets or weed, done a rail of coke, or popped some E because it was readily accessible and they figured it would be a one time thing to do for fun with friends.
Posted via RS Mobile

[Qmx323]

When I was a kid, I thought weed would be the most I'd ever do...

Boy was I wrong.

:ilied:

[westopher]

Or our society would turn into a utopia :p

Making pipes that easily accessible is wrong. Some teenagers walk past it, get curious, figure why not...it's only 25cents. Grab a few, walk half a block to buy some crack thinking it'll be a cool 1 time thing.
Posted via RS Mobile
I've had access to empty pen tubes since I was old enough to write, but it never made me think to go find a line of coke because I had a pen tube. Making the paraphernalia is not the same as making the drug readily available.

[stewie]

I've had access to empty pen tubes since I was old enough to write, but it never made me think to go find a line of coke because I had a pen tube. Making the paraphernalia is not the same as making the drug readily available.


The drug is already readily available, now it's just made it even easier for someone to try for the first time since they can get a brand new never used pipe and try to use it for a 1 time deal but end up getting fucked

[westopher]

You can smoke crack out of a lightbulb if you want. People didn't start doing more heroin because of the needle exchange.

[stewie]

i think more people have a fear of shoving a needle into their arm than sticking a pipe in their mouth and inhaling. i like tattoo's, those don't phase me at all, but when i have to get my blood tests done i have to hold back my lip from calling the nurse a cunt lol

but oh well. i wont be buying any pipes, and for those that start to buy them to experiment, i hope they enjoy whatever comes from it, whether it be addiction, losing a job, house, etc. not my problem.

[Hot Karl]

Or our society would turn into a utopia :p

Making pipes that easily accessible is wrong. Some teenagers walk past it, get curious, figure why not...it's only 25cents. Grab a few, walk half a block to buy some crack thinking it'll be a cool 1 time thing....bam some parents now have a crack head for a son. What if it was your son/daughter? I'm sure a LOT of us had smoked cigarets or weed, done a rail of coke, or popped some E because it was readily accessible and they figured it would be a one time thing to do for fun with friends.
Posted via RS Mobile

these parents you're all worried about are fucking idiots if their kid tries crack because there's a 25cent pipe vending machine. they failed as parents and the kid is likely a delinquent at that point.
if someone has access to crack and they want to use it. a pipe vending machine will have absolutely nothing to do with their ability to use that crack.

i hope you're trolling because your posts on this subject are so ignorant it's hard for me to take you seriously.

[multicartual]

Or our society would turn into a utopia :p

Making pipes that easily accessible is wrong. Some teenagers walk past it, get curious, figure why not...it's only 25cents. Grab a few, walk half a block to buy some crack thinking it'll be a cool 1 time thing....bam some parents now have a crack head for a son. What if it was your son/daughter?
Posted via RS Mobile


I don't care, they aren't my problem. Focus on your own life and let the government handle that.

In life, there are winners and there are losers.

[Manic!]

It's illegal for people under 19 to buy rolling papers. I can be fined 100k foe selling to minors and lose the right to sell any tobacco products. So why should they be able to sell crack pipes to minors? And yes I know you can smoke weed using a tin can or pages from the bible. It's B.S. that legal business have to follow the rules but anything goes in the DTES

[multicartual]

I smoked crack once in Costa Rica during an epic thunderstorm, it was an amazing experience!

Smoking crack in an alley when you're a homeless addict is probably not such an amazing experience.



Edit: I never used it again because smoking crack literally makes you feel like a god. The absolute definition of the word euphoria.

[Shorn]

It's illegal for people under 19 to buy rolling papers. I can be fined 100k foe selling to minors and lose the right to sell any tobacco products. So why should they be able to sell crack pipes to minors? And yes I know you can smoke weed using a tin can or pages from the bible. It's B.S. that legal business have to follow the rules but anything goes in the DTES

well to be fair, some gas stations and convenience stores sell (sold? don't know if they're still around) these glass tubes with fake flowers in them. marketed as a gift but everybody knows it's a crack pipe. the point is that it's just a glass tube. whether or not you smoke crack in it is not under the government's control. but rolling papers are MADE to smoke either tobacco or weed and both of which is illegal for minors.

if someone made a type of paper that looks like a notebook but magically is also very convenient to roll into a joint... well then that's a different story.

[stewie]

these parents you're all worried about are fucking idiots if their kid tries crack because there's a 25cent pipe vending machine. they failed as parents and the kid is likely a delinquent at that point.
if someone has access to crack and they want to use it. a pipe vending machine will have absolutely nothing to do with their ability to use that crack.

i hope you're trolling because your posts on this subject are so ignorant it's hard for me to take you seriously.

You can be the best damn parent in the world and give the best of everything to your child. But you can't control them.
How many people on this site live with their parents still and pop e and get stoned or snort rails while their parents aren't even aware of any of it?

I know I sure have. Get high at school, snort rails before going out to a club and then shove a few e/ketamine pills down my throat...am I a delinquent? Absolutely not, hell I've never even had a parking ticket...Just shit I tried since it was available directly in front of me and I was curious which led to me being a rec user until I finally quit all that shit.

My parents didn't fail shit at raising me. They told me countless times drugs are bad. I just wanted to do it cause I could. But if there's a way that acts as a stepping stone to get started for new users (retarded vending machine), then yeah that's a little fucking stupid to me.
Posted via RS Mobile

[MindBomber]

Saves them money and causes you a 300$ deductable every time they smash through your passenger window to steal a plastic coffee mug, 3$ in change, and a pack of gum. But hey! It's worth it! Now they'll only have to break into 5-6 cars to get the money they need to buy the crack, not 8-10 thanks to their 25cent pipe!

Stupidest thing ever.
Posted via RS Mobile

Spending $0.25 and, according to your figures, saving $900-1200 is an obscenely successful return on investment, and despite that you ridicule and denounce the idea. I don't understand your opposition, because this directly, cheaply, and very effectively targets the exact problem you've noted - drug crime. I wonder what your alternative means of addressing the problem would be? What would you do to combat the problem of drug crime? Keep in mind, I'm not even considering the health care related benefits in this response.

[zilley]

some reason I kinda want to buy one just beacause.

[Sid Vicious]

Or our society would turn into a utopia :p

Making pipes that easily accessible is wrong. Some teenagers walk past it, get curious, figure why not...it's only 25cents. Grab a few, walk half a block to buy some crack thinking it'll be a cool 1 time thing....bam some parents now have a crack head for a son. What if it was your son/daughter? I'm sure a LOT of us had smoked cigarets or weed, done a rail of coke, or popped some E because it was readily accessible and they figured it would be a one time thing to do for fun with friends.
Posted via RS Mobile

lol this is literally the most retarded logic in the world

people dont do drugs because its accessible, people do it because they have a desire to. and crack pipes are hilariously already accessible - you can use a lightbulb, any random ass glass tube. hell even a pen would do in a pinch.

you know how easy it is get drugs already? anyone on this forum could walk down the street and get crack in like 5 mins, doesnt mean this forums full of crackheads

[Hot Karl]

You can be the best damn parent in the world and give the best of everything to your child. But you can't control them.
How many people on this site live with their parents still and pop e and get stoned or snort rails while their parents aren't even aware of any of it?

I know I sure have. Get high at school, snort rails before going out to a club and then shove a few e/ketamine pills down my throat...am I a delinquent? Absolutely not, hell I've never even had a parking ticket...Just shit I tried since it was available directly in front of me and I was curious which led to me being a rec user until I finally quit all that shit.

My parents didn't fail shit at raising me. They told me countless times drugs are bad. I just wanted to do it cause I could. But if there's a way that acts as a stepping stone to get started for new users (retarded vending machine), then yeah that's a little fucking stupid to me.
Posted via RS Mobile

your concerns are so suburban soccer mom. they are just ignorant and fly in the face of all evidence given on the subject.

crackheads will smoke crack. like heroin users will use needles. providing them pipes and needles saves millions. these folks are die hard users. they aren't quitting until they die. i'd rather them have clean shit to use then spreading diseases.

go downtown. i've worked downtown. it's no fun walking into stairwells and seeing a dude shoot up. it's no fun seeing needles everywhere. and as bad as a full on junkie is. go check out what a full on junkie looks like with various diseases. the ones that actually look like a walking dead zombie covered in sores. you don't even wanna be 50 feet of a person like that.

that's what this type of program helps prevent. we got first responders and various folks who have to deal with that shit at ground level. i'm sure they'd prefer less junkies with aids too.

[GLOW]

i wonder if there's a section in the vending machine to put old/broken pipes in there as well to safely dispose of them and keep them off the streets.

[multicartual]

go check out what a full on junkie looks like with various diseases. the ones that actually look like a walking dead zombie covered in sores. you don't even wanna be 50 feet of a person like that.



I'm ok with it. That is the cost of freedom.

You have the freedom to destroy yourself.

[Bouncing Bettys]

I'm ok with it. That is the cost of freedom.

You have the freedom to destroy yourself.
You're ok with your tax dollars being spent to provide healthcare for these people as well? It's a fundamental tenet of our healthcare system and an obligation as citizens of Canada to provide medical care to everyone regardless of their societal stature. There is no option to ignore these people and simply sweep the problem under the rug. As a taxpayer and citizen, I would like to see our government reducing healthcare expenses, crime, etc while still treating everyone with dignity.

[xpl0sive]

I wonder what the actual cost to the Government is for these $0.25 crack pipes... I can almost guarantee that it's more than $0.25/each when you factor in the machines, maintenance, replenishment costs, etc. And who gets to cover the difference? We, the honest tax payers do of course... so who comes out ahead here?

1. Crackheads get to live a better, less diseased life
2. Crack dealers get to sell more crack because crackheads now spend the extra money they have on crack instead of pipes
3. Manufacturer of crack pipes

Does anyone on this forum fall into any of those categories?

[multicartual]

You're ok with your tax dollars being spent to provide healthcare for these people as well? It's a fundamental tenet of our healthcare system and an obligation as citizens of Canada to provide medical care to everyone regardless of their societal stature. There is no option to ignore these people and simply sweep the problem under the rug. As a taxpayer and citizen, I would like to see our government reducing healthcare expenses, crime, etc while still treating everyone with dignity.


There are two choices:

1. Kill them all
2. Help them as much as you can

Of course, society can use shame to discourage that behavior, but being a scumbag is not seen as a bad thing anymore. In fact, most people talk about reducing the stigma of pretty much every "bad" behavior to the point where there will be no such thing as "bad" behaviors. People will just claim they have a "disease" and we will coddle them.

In all honesty, if you're rich, you won't care. Trust me, I used to care so much, but I started working on just making my own life awesome. Now as long as my life kicks ass and I have a ton of fun, I'm totally ignorant to everything and it feels so much better!

tl;dr

Focus on making your own life better and let the government babysit the losers in life.

[stewie]

go downtown. i've worked downtown. it's no fun walking into stairwells and seeing a dude shoot up. it's no fun seeing needles everywhere. and as bad as a full on junkie is. go check out what a full on junkie looks like with various diseases. the ones that actually look like a walking dead zombie covered in sores. you don't even wanna be 50 feet of a person like that.

that's what this type of program helps prevent. we got first responders and various folks who have to deal with that shit at ground level. i'm sure they'd prefer less junkies with aids too.


thanks for the tip of the stairwells, but I used to work downtown in Stanley park in the sanitation dept which covers the beaches and the trails. ive seen "full on junkies" many times. go take a walk down some trails at 7am and see how many needles you'd need to clean up on a daily basis. take a walk along English bay where all the park benches are, 6-7 am the junkies are still there with needles scattered on the floor. certain spots are so filthy and have "zombied" out addicts just laying there that we would have to have cops assist us just to clean the area.

im also a licensed first responder as well, and ive had to help them before. id love to see less junkies with aids, but I don't think a crackpipe vending machine is the right approach. send them to an insite location, put them in a controlled room with TV's couches, tables and chairs and let them get high while giving them a new pipe each time. it blows my mind that schools aren't allowed to have certain foods in the vending machines - shouldn't that be up to the kid to decide to buy and eat if/what he wants? but crack pipes are okay to sell.

either way, they're gonna get high. new pipe or not, im pretty sure they're eventually gonna get something.

-edit-

multicultural - "focus on making your own life better and let the government babysit the losers in life."

im trying my hardest to make my life as awesome as I can, but when the government has to babysit the deadbeat losers at taxpayers expense...it pisses me off...but its never going to change, all I can do is bitch it out lol

[multicartual]

im trying my hardest to make my life as awesome as I can, but when the government has to babysit the deadbeat losers at taxpayers expense...it pisses me off...but its never going to change, all I can do is bitch it out lol


Yes but there will always, always be losers. For winners to exist, you need a ton of losers. The winners and semi-winners basically employ the government to use methods to encourage complacency in the poorest people to keep them calm and controlled. Also, the government maintains a monopoly on violence in case they need to put down hostile poor people.

Focus on enjoying your life, taxes are a bitch but it's much better than having poor people invading your life directly.

[asahai69]

lol you guys acting like theyre selling this at community centers and schools. theyre selling it at a drug resource enter and some place on god damn east hastings. im sure if your in the vicinity of either, your probably already fucked to begin with

[MindBomber]

I wonder what the actual cost to the Government is for these $0.25 crack pipes... I can almost guarantee that it's more than $0.25/each when you factor in the machines, maintenance, replenishment costs, etc. And who gets to cover the difference? We, the honest tax payers do of course... so who comes out ahead here?

1. Crackheads get to live a better, less diseased life
2. Crack dealers get to sell more crack because crackheads now spend the extra money they have on crack instead of pipes
3. Manufacturer of crack pipes

Does anyone on this forum fall into any of those categories?

Strictly speaking, this isn't a Government run initiative.

It's Portland Hotel Society's Drug User Resource Center initiative.

The Society receives Government grants so this is not important to the main point.

The true cost to taxpayers may be conservatively estimated at $5 (according to the article's crack pipe cost estimate).

The distribution of safe crack pipes, like safe needles, is expected to help prevent the spread of HIV/AIDS and Hepatitis C (according to the article).

The lifetime treatment cost of a single HIV/AIDS patient is conservatively estimated at $1,300,000 (according to Canadian Aids Society).

The taxpayers then benefit if one HIV/AIDS case is prevented for every 260,000 safe crack pipes distributed.

The users and dealers do benefit.

But, I'm not sure that's not important from a fiscal perspective.

What's important is that taxpayers very likely benefit.

I can't say taxpayers benefit with certainty. I also can't say to what degree taxpayers may benefit with certainty.

In the absence of a research study, however, I'm happy to accept that uncertainty in view of the fact that taxpayers will very likely benefit.

I'm one of those people, you're one of those people, and nearly everyone else on this forum is one of those people. And, as one of those people, I'm pleased to see a creative approach to harm reduction.

And at the end of the day, the only alternatives anyone here is presenting is ignoring the problem, which would only lead to it worsening, or a genocidal extermination of drug addicts, which is obviously absurd.

I would love to hear a response since I know you're an intelligent guy.

[westopher]

that's what this type of program helps prevent. we got first responders and various folks who have to deal with that shit at ground level. i'm sure they'd prefer less junkies with aids too.
My wife deals with these people every day. They are RIDDLED with diseases. Anything that drops that # is not only a smart investment in public safety, its a financial investment based on healthcare costs.

[tiger_handheld]

the only way to end this homelessness bs is to re-think how we calculate welfare cheques. Everyday I go by 1st ave exist off HWY 1, the same ablebodied guy is there asking for change. He's probably no older than 30 with two working feet and arms. There should be a physical or mental disability written up by a doctor to qualify for welfare. and if the person does have a mental disability, lets open up a "disability center" similar to old folks home using taxpayer / corporate charitable funds for upkeep. the folks who would work at this centre would be the other homeless folk without a disability - non-unionized.

while on this topic - why does low income housing need to be with a million dollar view on false creek? REALLY? I know of people who work cash jobs / so they can keep their 10% of income per month rental unit at olympic village. What is wrong with building a low income only housing say around East 1st or Commercial or Clarke or Kingsway. The multimillion dollar homes should be kept for the rich folk who can afford the property taxes and fund the city for other low income housing projects.

/endrant #iwishiwaspremier #hatersbemymotivators #taggingonRS


edit: excuse the spelling

[xpl0sive]

Strictly speaking, this isn't a Government run initiative.

It's Portland Hotel Society's Drug User Resource Center initiative.

The Society receives Government grants so this is not important to the main point.

The true cost to taxpayers may be conservatively estimated at $5 (according to the article's crack pipe cost estimate).

The distribution of safe crack pipes, like safe needles, is expected to help prevent the spread of HIV/AIDS and Hepatitis C (according to the article).

The lifetime treatment cost of a single HIV/AIDS patient is conservatively estimated at $1,300,000 (according to Canadian Aids Society).

The taxpayers then benefit if one HIV/AIDS case is prevented for every 260,000 safe crack pipes distributed.

The users and dealers do benefit.

But, I'm not sure that's not important from a fiscal perspective.

What's important is that taxpayers very likely benefit.

I can't say taxpayers benefit with certainty. I also can't say to what degree taxpayers may benefit with certainty.

In the absence of a research study, however, I'm happy to accept that uncertainty in view of the fact that taxpayers will very likely benefit.

I'm one of those people, you're one of those people, and nearly everyone else on this forum is one of those people. And, as one of those people, I'm pleased to see a creative approach to harm reduction.

And at the end of the day, the only alternatives anyone here is presenting is ignoring the problem, which would only lead to it worsening, or a genocidal extermination of drug addicts, which is obviously absurd.

I would love to hear a response since I know you're an intelligent guy.

You're correct in saying that it is very difficult to determine whether or not an average citizen will benefit from a program like this, which is probably the main reason programs like is even exist in the first place. It is our government's general response to most difficult questions. "We can't say for sure but it's probably to everyone's benefit".
I would be interested to see how many of these aids infected junkies get $1.3 million worth of treatment. I'm fairly certain most of the people who are infected with HIV/aids and live on the street either a) don't know about it, b) are too high to care, c) are too far gone to treat.

What's the most common way for aids/HIV to be transmitted. According to the government, it's Males having sex with Males at 63.6%. Injection drug use accounts for 14%. How come there aren't $0.25 condom vending machines on every street corner on Davie St.?
Source At a Glance - HIV and AIDS in Canada: Surveillance Report to December 31st, 2012 - Public Health Agency of Canada (http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/aids-sida/publication/survreport/2012/dec/index-eng.php)


My point is... Programs like this really don't do much for the general public. It's usually a feel good campaign for someone to say "yeah we are making a difference at other people's expense".

And for those talking about people with mental issues and needing a facility for them, that's exactly what Riverview was. In fact, a large number of people who live in DTES ended up there after Riverview closed. In my opinion, the government should be funding that facility instead of funding safe injection sites and crack pipe vending machines... At least then the people who need help are in a controlled environment, get the care they need and aren't at risk of contracting/spreading diseases which cost tax payers even more money to treat.

[rsx]

I'm still for the idea of labour camps for the homeless.

Get them to dig roads, help build infrastructure for housing and food (no crack). After they complete x amount of years of rehab then they can try and rejoin society with skills they've acquired.

[MindBomber]

You're correct in saying that it is very difficult to determine whether or not an average citizen will benefit from a program like this, which is probably the main reason programs like is even exist in the first place. It is our government's general response to most difficult questions. "We can't say for sure but it's probably to everyone's benefit".
I would be interested to see how many of these aids infected junkies get $1.3 million worth of treatment. I'm fairly certain most of the people who are infected with HIV/aids and live on the street either a) don't know about it, b) are too high to care, c) are too far gone to treat.

What's the most common way for aids/HIV to be transmitted. According to the government, it's Males having sex with Males at 63.6%. Injection drug use accounts for 14%. How come there aren't $0.25 condom vending machines on every street corner on Davie St.?
Source At a Glance - HIV and AIDS in Canada: Surveillance Report to December 31st, 2012 - Public Health Agency of Canada (http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/aids-sida/publication/survreport/2012/dec/index-eng.php)


My point is... Programs like this really don't do much for the general public. It's usually a feel good campaign for someone to say "yeah we are making a difference at other people's expense".

And for those talking about people with mental issues and needing a facility for them, that's exactly what Riverview was. In fact, a large number of people who live in DTES ended up there after Riverview closed. In my opinion, the government should be funding that facility instead of funding safe injection sites and crack pipe vending machines... At least then the people who need help are in a controlled environment, get the care they need and aren't at risk of contracting/spreading diseases which cost tax payers even more money to treat.

The counterpoints you've raised are very fair.

I, too, would like to see the approximate amount spent on HIV/AIDs patients in the DTES.

Of course, such specific information is not available though I suspect the number is still significant; albeit below average.

Males having sex with males resulting in 63.6% of HIV/AIDs transmission seems too high. I wonder what degree of bias there is in data collection.

Regardless, sexual transmission of HIV/AIDs is why I support public sexual health programs.

And, it still seems likely that the net benefit of the crack pipe vending machine is positive.

I'm still for the idea of labour camps for the homeless.

Get them to dig roads, help build infrastructure for housing and food (no crack). After they complete x amount of years of rehab then they can try and rejoin society with skills they've acquired.

How would you respond to the endless supply of information showing institutionalizing people results in them being less able to function in society?

I avidly support reforming the welfare/disability system, but through very different means.

[asahai69]

I'm still for the idea of labour camps for the homeless.

Get them to dig roads, help build infrastructure for housing and food (no crack). After they complete x amount of years of rehab then they can try and rejoin society with skills they've acquired.

yeah because doing all those things require no skills at all. honestly, are you guys in this thread trolling or just sheltered babies who think the homeless are just a bunch of free loaders who we can use as cheap/free labor

there might be a few people who are in the downtown east side by choice. but i have actually taken my time to talk to a few and every time i talked to these people they tell me the same thing. they came from homes that i wouldnt wish upon my worst enemy or some sort of physical or mental disability that they have had no support to help deal with.

dont forget that the homeless are still people too. someones son, daughter, father, mother etc etc. turning you back on these people will just make the problem bigger and bigger. its a massive social issue that needs to be dealt with.

/semi rant

[stewie]

yeah because doing all those things require no skills at all. honestly, are you guys in this thread trolling or just sheltered babies who think the homeless are just a bunch of free loaders who we can use as cheap/free labor

there might be a few people who are in the downtown east side by choice. but i have actually taken my time to talk to a few and every time i talked to these people they tell me the same thing. they came from homes that i wouldnt wish upon my worst enemy or some sort of physical or mental disability that they have had no support to help deal with.

dont forget that the homeless are still people too. someones son, daughter, father, mother etc etc. turning you back on these people will just make the problem bigger and bigger. its a massive social issue that needs to be dealt with.

/semi rant

nah, im not trolling. may seem that way, but im not.

like rsx said, basic labor jobs don't exactly require much skill/knowledge of how to do it. some construction sites will even hire on the spot. im not saying use them for free or cheap labor at all. im suggesting that if there was a camp/shelter program where they could stay, somewhere away from dtes, and could help them with the initial detox stage and work on construction sites or other basic labor jobs. a job they can do and get paid for every 2 weeks (get a few local companies to sign up and be part of a program to help the homeless).
have a portion of their checks go towards keeping the camp/shelter running while they can keep the rest in a new bank account to help them kick start their new life...but monitor their money, give them a portion of it as an "allowance" kinda deal.
have some strict rules, show up to work, no drugs what so ever. make it like a prison...only they're there on their own free will and can leave whenever they want. they sign out when they go to work, sign in when they get back, allow them to do random drug tests etc. basically motivate them and make it so they want to be there instead of outside in the cold.
a basic labor job is enough to start a new resume with some basic skills for once they leave. once they/people who run it all feel as if they've "graduated" their little program (possibly a year). help set them up with a basic apartment...fuck you can furnish an entire house from the craigslist freebies section...may not be classy, but its better than nothing for some. they'll have cash in a bank, a job, a place to live, and a chance to start fresh. they can use the skills they learned from their current job and try to apply else where so a new person can take his spot.

from there they can rebuild and start a new life. if they choose to resort back to drugs, oh well, they'll lose everything they just worked hard on. at least you can say you/they tried to help them.

ive talked to some of them as well when I worked at Stanley park. they were always more than willing to give me their life story and say the whole "don't do what I did" speech. a lot of them would love to have a second chance if they could.

instead of offering them safer ways to use drugs, offer them a chance to get rid of the habit all together. granted it cant be applied to everyone, but I think more people would rather get a 2nd chance than use safe.

but that's just my view on shit.

[MindBomber]

^I agree with this idea in principle, but it would require significant government funding and volunteer employer participation. Securing those two requirements would be borderline impossible.
Posted via RS Mobile

[asahai69]

good luck giving a junkie a shovel and telling them how to dig. even before you do all of that. they gotta kick the habit. im sure if it was just as easy as moving to nowhere and getting a basic labor job to kill the addiction they would. but its never that simple.

im sure there are a lot of people that can be hooked on any drug and still hold down a simple job. but these people down there are beyond that and need more help than that to kick it.

it doesnt look like the government is willing to setup adequate facilities or funding to do that just yet. So just doing something as small as providing a clean site to do drugs or providing them clean equipment helps just a little bit, its worth it. the budget for that is a mere drop in the bucket compared to what our government foolishly spends its money on.

[tiger_handheld]

nah, im not trolling. may seem that way, but im not.

like rsx said, basic labor jobs don't exactly require much skill/knowledge of how to do it. some construction sites will even hire on the spot. im not saying use them for free or cheap labor at all. im suggesting that if there was a camp/shelter program where they could stay, somewhere away from dtes, and could help them with the initial detox stage and work on construction sites or other basic labor jobs. a job they can do and get paid for every 2 weeks (get a few local companies to sign up and be part of a program to help the homeless).
have a portion of their checks go towards keeping the camp/shelter running while they can keep the rest in a new bank account to help them kick start their new life...but monitor their money, give them a portion of it as an "allowance" kinda deal.
have some strict rules, show up to work, no drugs what so ever. make it like a prison...only they're there on their own free will and can leave whenever they want. they sign out when they go to work, sign in when they get back, allow them to do random drug tests etc. basically motivate them and make it so they want to be there instead of outside in the cold.
a basic labor job is enough to start a new resume with some basic skills for once they leave. once they/people who run it all feel as if they've "graduated" their little program (possibly a year). help set them up with a basic apartment...fuck you can furnish an entire house from the craigslist freebies section...may not be classy, but its better than nothing for some. they'll have cash in a bank, a job, a place to live, and a chance to start fresh. they can use the skills they learned from their current job and try to apply else where so a new person can take his spot.

from there they can rebuild and start a new life. if they choose to resort back to drugs, oh well, they'll lose everything they just worked hard on. at least you can say you/they tried to help them.

ive talked to some of them as well when I worked at Stanley park. they were always more than willing to give me their life story and say the whole "don't do what I did" speech. a lot of them would love to have a second chance if they could.

instead of offering them safer ways to use drugs, offer them a chance to get rid of the habit all together. granted it cant be applied to everyone, but I think more people would rather get a 2nd chance than use safe.

but that's just my view on shit.

What you describe is BCTeenChallenge (http://www.bcteenchallenge.com/). They are self sufficient and provide a camp like setting. They are contracted out on vocational labour gigs for various company's. They are funded by corp charitable $ and they buy and sell cars as well. So, what you speak of is possible. More on it later.

[adambomb]

I'm still for the idea of labour camps for the homeless.

Get them to dig roads, help build infrastructure for housing and food (no crack). After they complete x amount of years of rehab then they can try and rejoin society with skills they've acquired.


What do we do with those who choose not to work? :confused:

There are only 3 basic human needs. Eat, Shit, Sleep.

There are plenty of mental stable people in the "homeless" population in Vancouver who just choose to be homeless. In Canada, especially in BC, it is fairly easy to "walk the earth" because those basic needs are easily met. Soup kitchens, mild weather, green space, clothing donation and bleeding hearts help pave that way.

What if you bring "homeless" to a labour camp and they refuse to work? What then? Firing squad or gas chamber? The humane option would be jail. But that becomes a burden on taxpayers and now taxpayers are providing a mentally stable person free housing. Albeit, their freedom rights would have to be stripped because it would have to be against the law to be unemployed and homeless in order to keep them there. I'd like to see a politician push that agenda in BC. Illegal to be lazy.

What about those passive drug users who are mentally unstable? When you put them in a labour camp, good luck getting any labour out of them. They suffer from mental illness and they are expected to function as unskilled labour? This brings back the Riverview debate, which is, free housing for the mentally unstable, from the wallets of taxpayers. However, there is also a loss of freedom rights as they are confined to a prison like setting.

make it like a prison...only they're there on their own free will and can leave whenever they want.

Prison with free will. That would mean a person who chooses not to work and chooses not to live under the rules and regulations of the "prison" or "labour camp" is free to go back on the street and resume smoking crack. :chairdance:

[stewie]

^

those who are stable and enjoy being homeless can continue the way they are. if they enjoy sleeping in the rain/cold and pan handling making 10$ a day and eating scraps then so be it. they're not forced to do anything. but if someone were to tell you that they've got a deal of a lifetime for them at no real cost to them. 3 meals a day, warm place to sleep, fresh clothes, a job, and a chance to start over, you'd probably take it. a lot of homeless people are just people who were down on their luck, made poor financial decisions and lost their gfs/wives, house, job, car etc. those people would probably jump on board in a heart beat...sure beats holding a squeegee at a red light.

I said the program cant be applied to everyone for obvious reasons. shitty? yes. but until theres other options for them, not much can be done.

if they refuse to work then they're no longer welcome to stay and reap the benefits. simple. if they feel that they would rather sit in an alley and smoke crack and shoot up, then go for it. theres the door, close it on your way out. obviously you cant put everyone in a shelter all at once, so there would need to be some sort of wait list to get in. so if they leave and want to come back...they're going to have to wait it out.

[wstce92]

This is the stupidest shit ever. Maybe less stupid than safe injection sites, but it's up there.
This is just a circle jerk for people with too much time to tell anyone who'll listen: "look at all this good I'm doing".
This is cutting a weed. Either pull the weed by the root or come to terms with a garden full of weeds.
Concentrate on providing people who want to get clean the means to get clean. Concentrate on providing a place for those with mental problems (the ones who are actually victims of circumstance and fall into drug use) to go to. And for the rest, decide either to force them to get clean or to get rid of them.

[multicartual]

I'm still for the idea of labour camps for the homeless.

Get them to dig roads, help build infrastructure for housing and food (no crack). After they complete x amount of years of rehab then they can try and rejoin society with skills they've acquired.


Labour camps for the homeless would turn into centers of brutality so fucking fast it would make Abu Ghraib look like a happy granny tea party

[multicartual]

from there they can rebuild and start a new life. if they choose to resort back to drugs, oh well, they'll lose everything they just worked hard on. at least you can say you/they tried to help them.


Please realize that being homeless does permanent change to your self-worth!

I'm 35 and even though I was only homeless for a few months here and there from when I was like 15-18, it still has an effect on me today. You definitely develop social awareness to subtle changes in the way people treat you, and you can detect immediately when you come across as an "outsider" which can make it difficult to deal with people. When certain events happen in someone's life, they leave imprints on people that affect them in ways they don't even perceive consciously.

Hardcore addicts lose their sense of identity completely when they're totally fucked. (of course, if you're wealthy and on drugs you don't really lose your identity as much because you can still afford the upkeep on the rest of your life, the poor do not have that luxury.)

To clean up, those addicts have to rebuild their own self-identity from the ground up.

How do they learn to eat a healthy diet again?
How about dressing in clothes to suit social situations?
How to deal with finding a significant other?
How to find hobbies and activities away from previous lifelong pursuits?
How to find employment that they enjoy?
How to pay bills on time and manage money?

Like there is so much more I can go into, the nature of rebooting who you are as a person is not very easy. As an artist myself, I can say that it takes a good year or more for me to adjust my lifestyle and self-indentity to a point where my friends notice the shift. That's after years of practice, a good income, a safe place to live, and supportive friends.

Now imagine being Joe McSurrey and trying to get off heroin in a $300 SRO. Rats, cockroaches, canned food, complete boredom and McDonald's as a prospect for employment, your life is basically complete shit and you're supposed to put a smile on your face and rejoin the world? That's a long climb up the social ladder. Chances are you can't get any dates either, or the women you'd be dating are also DTES people which probably won't be the best influence on you.

Shit, if any of you people really want to help the DTES, go make some friends down here with the poor people. Let me tell you, I tried to make friends with Ken Foster and he ended up stealing shit from my studio! At no time did I get mad about it though, it is just one of the likely things to happen when dealing with the lower classes. Now, do you want to deal with helping these people directly, or would you rather the government do it?

We need places in society where the lower classes can exist in their natural states of chaos. This allows the most freedom, but at a cost of higher tax. If we try to change it, ALL people will lose their freedoms one by one.

Damn that coffee I had at midnight was strong!

[MindBomber]

Shit, if any of you people really want to help the DTES, go make some friends down here with the poor people. Let me tell you, I tried to make friends with Ken Foster and he ended up stealing shit from my studio! At no time did I get mad about it though, it is just one of the likely things to happen when dealing with the lower classes.


Ken Foster's a good example of a talented, intelligent person who lost everything due to mental illness and the scars of a terrible childhood.

[hud 91gt]

HIV/AIDS treatment isn't cheap. Personally I don't have the most knowledge in diseases which are transferrable by saliva, but the small price of a crack pipe vending machine is minuscule compared to some of the other idiotic expenditures this country make. This one might even save some money in the long run.

[asahai69]

i would love to know the ages of the people who are against this idea. i know when i was younger, say about 18-24, i couldn't care less about what they did with the homeless problem. but now that im a bit older and wiser. i have a totally different view on these types of things

[stewie]

Please realize that being homeless does permanent change to your self-worth!

I'm 35 and even though I was only homeless for a few months here and there from when I was like 15-18, it still has an effect on me today. You definitely develop social awareness to subtle changes in the way people treat you, and you can detect immediately when you come across as an "outsider" which can make it difficult to deal with people. When certain events happen in someone's life, they leave imprints on people that affect them in ways they don't even perceive consciously.

Hardcore addicts lose their sense of identity completely when they're totally fucked. (of course, if you're wealthy and on drugs you don't really lose your identity as much because you can still afford the upkeep on the rest of your life, the poor do not have that luxury.)

To clean up, those addicts have to rebuild their own self-identity from the ground up.

How do they learn to eat a healthy diet again?
How about dressing in clothes to suit social situations?
How to deal with finding a significant other?
How to find hobbies and activities away from previous lifelong pursuits?
How to find employment that they enjoy?
How to pay bills on time and manage money?

Like there is so much more I can go into, the nature of rebooting who you are as a person is not very easy. As an artist myself, I can say that it takes a good year or more for me to adjust my lifestyle and self-indentity to a point where my friends notice the shift. That's after years of practice, a good income, a safe place to live, and supportive friends.

Now imagine being Joe McSurrey and trying to get off heroin in a $300 SRO. Rats, cockroaches, canned food, complete boredom and McDonald's as a prospect for employment, your life is basically complete shit and you're supposed to put a smile on your face and rejoin the world? That's a long climb up the social ladder. Chances are you can't get any dates either, or the women you'd be dating are also DTES people which probably won't be the best influence on you.

Shit, if any of you people really want to help the DTES, go make some friends down here with the poor people. Let me tell you, I tried to make friends with Ken Foster and he ended up stealing shit from my studio! At no time did I get mad about it though, it is just one of the likely things to happen when dealing with the lower classes. Now, do you want to deal with helping these people directly, or would you rather the government do it?

We need places in society where the lower classes can exist in their natural states of chaos. This allows the most freedom, but at a cost of higher tax. If we try to change it, ALL people will lose their freedoms one by one.

Damn that coffee I had at midnight was strong!

sorry to hear that about you, but just because it had that effect on you doesn't mean it will for everybody.

and yes, they have to rebuild from ground up. it doesn't happen overnight, it takes years. if they're in a "camp" like I was talking about, they can easily learn about diet and health since they'll be eating healthy while there. learning new hobbies and interests is one of the things they will learn while there..hell there was a story not to long ago about a guy who offered a homeless man a programming book/laptop or a 100$ bill. the man took the book/laptop, studies while living on the streets, and now hes a programmer working for the guy who gave it to him. finding new hobbies are easy when you've access to them. finding a S/O takes time. as for money management, theres easy free ways to learn...when I was in elementary school I remember my teacher gave us a project that lasted for months. every pay day we would each get "1000$", and from that we'd get to look through magazines, buy items we liked, cut them out and put them in our "house", figure out the taxes, balance a checkbook, all while having a set amount of money that we needed to save for food/rent/and utilities. if I could do it in elementary school im sure they can as well with a little help and guidance. finding a job they enjoy...lets face it, most of us may have jobs in our desired field, but that doesn't mean we enjoy our job, probably just the money that the job can get us.

as for joe mcsurrey, if he has to put a fake smile on his face working at mcdonalds just to make ends meat then do it. climbing up a social ladder isn't easy, but you've got to start somewhere, and its better to start sooner than to late.



i would love to know the ages of the people who are against this idea. i know when i was younger, say about 18-24, i couldn't care less about what they did with the homeless problem. but now that im a bit older and wiser. i have a totally different view on these types of things

28 this year. im against seeing my tax money going towards homeless having a safer drug experience. if my money was going towards getting them out of drugs and help them out with detox and attempt to get them into a work force, then by all means take my tax money and put it to good use. im just tired of seeing bullshit about the gov. catering to drug addicted homeless people. do I feel sorry/sympathetic for them? yeah, I do. would I like to help them? of course. but in no way do I think that giving them 25c crack pipes is a way of helping them...its just a bs way of telling them to continue on being drug addicts, but heres a crack pipe to show we care. I just find it stupid.

[multicartual]

im just tired of seeing bullshit about the gov. catering to drug addicted homeless people.


If the government doesn't take care of them two things will happen:


1. Poor people will get in the faces of the rich and fuck shit up
2. The government will enact harsh laws that take away ALL people's freedoms for stability

[asahai69]

im against seeing my tax money going towards homeless having a safer drug experience.

to get each and every one off drugs is going to cost far more money than the government can afford. if clean needles and pipes helps reduce the transmission of diseases then it can only help in the long run. spend a little money up front to save a lot of money down the road.

and again, the money spent on this is just a minuscule drop in the governments budget.

[stewie]

^ I'm all up for the gov helping them, but helping them this way seems quite stupid. They're not solving a problem at the source which they should be doing. This is like sweeping dust under the carpet.

They don't need to take any freedoms away.
Help them the proper way to attempt to have them return as a contributing member of society, or flat out stop funding them with their insite program and crack pipe shit.
If they would like to return, they have to make the initial first step...if not, they can go back to using shared needles/pipes and for us to quit giving them handouts. If that's the life they want to live then let them live it.

The direction this shit is going we might as well give them free crack/weed/heroin/coke and meth...throw in some malt liquor as well while they're at it.
Posted via RS Mobile

[Bouncing Bettys]

they can go back to using shared needles/pipes and for us to quit giving them handouts. If that's the life they want to live then let them live it.
This is like sweeping dust under the carpet.


Treating them with dignity and removing the stigma which surrounds addiction and mental illness an important step. Improving their basic needs, such as their health and wellbeing is a start. Nothing is going to eliminate drug use. These programs acknowledge this and seek to at least improve peoples lives. Human beings will always be effected by addiction and mental illness and there isn't much we can do about it realistically. However, we can change how we as a society choose to perceive people effected by these issues.

[BillyBishop]

I'm posting just to throw this into the mix. Some of you may have seen these articles a few weeks ago, but here are some links in case you didn't.

BBC News - Amsterdam alcoholics paid in beer for collecting litter (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25548061)

Amsterdam pays alcoholic workers in beer, lets them work buzzed - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/amsterdam-pays-alcoholic-workers-in-beer-lets-them-work-buzzed/article16363798/)

[dvst8]

^ I'm all up for the gov helping them, but helping them this way seems quite stupid. They're not solving a problem at the source which they should be doing. This is like sweeping dust under the carpet.

They don't need to take any freedoms away.
Help them the proper way to attempt to have them return as a contributing member of society, or flat out stop funding them with their insite program and crack pipe shit.
If they would like to return, they have to make the initial first step...if not, they can go back to using shared needles/pipes and for us to quit giving them handouts. If that's the life they want to live then let them live it.

The direction this shit is going we might as well give them free crack/weed/heroin/coke and meth...throw in some malt liquor as well while they're at it.
Posted via RS Mobile

Wow you're very stubborn. The gov. can fund all your ideas of a 'PROPER' way to fighting this. You will only find that you're no where near cleaning up anybody. We're dealing with people with mental illnesses. I don't think you FULLY understand what this means so please educate yourself by clicking this link Mental disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. <----PLEASE CLICK HERE. Not everyone can be cured from a disorder. Most will live this way the rest of their lives. While you go on with your ignorant good life, what would you say about these people? lazy? incapable? useless?

For all you know, they were ALL born NORMAL JUST LIKE YOU but made some wrong decisions, did some crack and got addicted. Now live on the streets and got what they deserved. Sounds like a true hollywood story right? Open up you're sheltered mind, go out to the downtown eastside and ask these defenseless people how they ended up there. And until you do so, please stop posting your pointless arguments about how wrong a 25 cent crack pipe is.

[hud 91gt]

^ I'm all up for the gov helping them, but helping them this way seems quite stupid. They're not solving a problem at the source which they should be doing. This is like sweeping dust under the carpet.

They don't need to take any freedoms away.
Help them the proper way to attempt to have them return as a contributing member of society, or flat out stop funding them with their insite program and crack pipe shit.
If they would like to return, they have to make the initial first step...if not, they can go back to using shared needles/pipes and for us to quit giving them handouts. If that's the life they want to live then let them live it.

The direction this shit is going we might as well give them free crack/weed/heroin/coke and meth...throw in some malt liquor as well while they're at it.
Posted via RS Mobile

Over the last 10 years, safe injection sites have reduced the spread of HIV/AIDS by 40%. Any idea how much money in tax that saved you? Put that in your pipe and smoke it. I know where you can get one.

We in Canada are lucky enough to have public health care. A lot of us benefit from it, but there are some negatives. Negatively, we have to care for everyone. Including those who you might not think deserve it. If we didn't have health care you could let them die out on the streets, but we do. Yes, finding a solution to the issue in the first place would be great. For now, this saves you money. Figure it out.

[Xu.Vi]

These things don't come by if it didn't save the Government money.

[stewie]

Wow you're very stubborn. The gov. can fund all your ideas of a 'PROPER' way to fighting this. You will only find that you're no where near cleaning up anybody. We're dealing with people with mental illnesses. I don't think you FULLY understand what this means so please educate yourself by clicking this link Mental disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder). <----PLEASE CLICK HERE. Not everyone can be cured from a disorder. Most will live this way the rest of their lives. While you go on with your ignorant good life, what would you say about these people? lazy? incapable? useless?

For all you know, they were ALL born NORMAL JUST LIKE YOU but made some wrong decisions, did some crack and got addicted. Now live on the streets and got what they deserved. Sounds like a true hollywood story right? Open up you're sheltered mind, go out to the downtown eastside and ask these defenseless people how they ended up there. And until you do so, please stop posting your pointless arguments about how wrong a 25 cent crack pipe is.

oh really? cause I happen to have some of the things on that list..and some that aren't on it...I take 20+ pills a fucking day just to be able to walk down the street on my own(even though im not supposed to), ive lost my ability to drive and can no longer work my job because of it, but you don't see me shoving a fucking needle in my arm to take the pain away.

care to live a day in my life?

[multicartual]

but you don't see me shoving a fucking needle in my arm to take the pain away.

care to live a day in my life?


Perspective changes everything.

[xpl0sive]

Over the last 10 years, safe injection sites have reduced the spread of HIV/AIDS by 40%. Any idea how much money in tax that saved you? Put that in your pipe and smoke it. I know where you can get one.

We in Canada are lucky enough to have public health care. A lot of us benefit from it, but there are some negatives. Negatively, we have to care for everyone. Including those who you might not think deserve it. If we didn't have health care you could let them die out on the streets, but we do. Yes, finding a solution to the issue in the first place would be great. For now, this saves you money. Figure it out.

What is this Public health care you speak of? For those of us who work for themselves, we get an MSP bill in the mail every month and if you don't pay it, no public heath care for you... Maybe those who live on the street get "free" health care, I know I sure as hell don't.

[MindBomber]

You're not refuting Hud's point since MSP rates are set following significant Federal and Provincial subsidy. It is public rather than private healthcare. It's just not free healthcare if you're past a certain income level. (For the record, I think the entire MSP system is a bureaucratic inefficiency.)
Posted via RS Mobile

[Ronin]

I might be more supportive of these things if some asshole didn't break into my car in Chinatown but since that happened, fuck 'em.

[hud 91gt]

What is this Public health care you speak of? For those of us who work for themselves, we get an MSP bill in the mail every month and if you don't pay it, no public heath care for you... Maybe those who live on the street get "free" health care, I know I sure as hell don't.FYI, not self employed, I still pay the $700 per year. It's not free for us rich people. But that wasn't the point.

[asahai69]

again ill say this. i seem to be one of the few to not be going broke by taxes in this province. please correct me if im wrong. but id love to pay more in tax if it meant we had more to spend on things like educaton, health and social problems.

[multicartual]

again ill say this. i seem to be one of the few to not be going broke by taxes in this province. please correct me if im wrong. but id love to pay more in tax if it meant we had more to spend on things like educaton, health and social problems.

Nobody is stopping you from writing a cheque...

[Hot Karl]

stewie: you know it doesn't have to be 1 or the other?

no one here is advocating that we give them pipes and needles and that's it. it's part of a complete plan to help the people who need help.

however folks will still do drugs. be it diehards, or folks with relapses. so the point is to simply make that situation a bit safer because it WILL happen. and ideally if/when they truly quit, hopefully they do so without having a disease(s) so they can function like regular folks.

[asahai69]

Nobody is stopping you from writing a cheque...

believe me, i personally donate and my company also donates to local charities. but a society behind a cause will make much more of a difference than an individual person