[Harvey Specter]

Question for the people from HK, is this a serious issue amongst the majority of HK residents which is boiling up now or is it a small group which is been propelled by the media?

http://www.scmp.com/sites/default/files/styles/980w/public/2014/02/16/c15765e4c177c83e75ee926a76ef6992.jpg?itok=mFkEamOx


Scores of protesters marched through Tsim Sha Tsui yesterday in an "anti-locust" campaign demanding the government curb mainland visitors.

Protesters said a massive influx of mainland visitors - dubbed "locusts" by critics, who accuse them of overwhelming the city and hogging its resources - had hit the livelihoods of locals.

During the 90-minute protest about 100 people marched from the Star Ferry pier to Canton Road, a street lined with luxury goods stores popular with mainlanders. The march got off to a tense start when scuffles broke out between protesters and people opposed to the demonstration. Police had to intervene.

The protesters waved placards and chanted slogans such as "go back to China" and "reclaim Hong Kong" as they marched. Some carried colonial-era flags, a popular symbol for those who want autonomy or independence for Hong Kong.

Some booed and shouted abuse at Putonghua-speaking passers-by. The protesters also shouted abuse at mainland customers inside shops. Some shoppers took pictures while others ignored them. But some Canton Road jewellery shops closed.

Shanghai visitor Ma He said the protesters were disrespectful. "Are they not Chinese themselves? I heard that Hong Kong people were educated and civilised. It seems I was wrong."

A visitor from Shenzhen said: "We are here to shop. It helps the economy of Hong Kong. I do not understand why they do not welcome us."

Protest convenor Ronald Leung Kam-shing said he was pleased with the response after organising the campaign online.

"We do not need political parties. Just through the internet we can get so many people to come out," he said. "I think the government should listen to our voice seriously. It has to stop allowing Chinese tourists into Hong Kong … We do not want them."

Among the protesters but keeping a low profile was primary school teacher Alpais Lam Wai-sze, who shot to fame for swearing at police officers over their handling of a Falun Gong protest.

A pro-Beijing group, Voice of Loving Hong Kong, staged a rival "Welcome to Hong Kong" campaign on Canton Road. About 10 members distributed leaflets wishing visitors a happy stay.

Tourism from the mainland has boomed as the nation's economy has grown and rules forcing visitors to join tour groups have been eased. Some 40.8 million mainland visitors came last year.
This article appeared in the South China Morning Post print edition as Scuffles during protest over mainland tourists

[m3thods]

Speaking with my friends who frequent back and forth, it's a real problem.

Personally when I went to visit for a few weeks in 2012, I made TST my home base and you only really saw the luggage and crap like spitting close to the ferries and the mall there on water's edge (Harbor City?). That's understandable. When I went to Central/Admirality/CWB, again they were pretty much just near any shopping district.

The one place that I would say was "overrun" with Mainland Chinese was Ocean Park. But aside from the luggage rolling everywhere, it wasn't any skin off my back.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if one were to go through it day in and day out, that person might reach their breaking point pretty early.

[eurochevy]

So in other words main-landers are coming in with money to hong kong and people from hk are complaining because they have it better than everywhere else in china because of previous british rule. Well im sorry to tell you but they're all Chinese at the end of the day. Thats pretty much the same as when everyone in the summer goes to kelowna / that area from vancouver for vacation. Pretty retarded if you ask me ... this comment is what made me laugh = "I think the government should listen to our voice seriously. It has to stop allowing Chinese tourists into Hong Kong … We do not want them." What a bunch of pompous pricks. You're ALL Chinese, live with it.

[yray]

this thread; every year on RS

http://paigu.crystalized.ca/images/ambassador/IMG_6536.JPG

It's a mix of how things were better before 97 and current infrastructure is at/over capacity as every mainlander has made it their life goal to visit HK once.

Post colonial syndrome yo

[tarobbt]

A little bit of everything and put it togther you have things like this happening.

Apparently the HK government are forced to put up signs that tell Mainland tourists to not poop in public :heckno:

[ShadowBun]

Personally, I don't get this whole Chinese thing.
Then again, everyone got their own opinion. O well

[SkinnyPupp]

It is a serious problem, but most people don't think like these idiots. I think most HK people want their identity and rights to be upheld, as per the Basic Law (the constitution created when PRC took over). However those rights are being taken away little by little, with no indication that it will do anything other than get worse as time goes on.

When I first came here in 2003, you probably wouldn't even know that Hong Kong was an SAR (although I never visited before). You wouldn't even see a PRC flag anywhere - the MTR only just started announcing station names in mandarin.

Little by little, PRC has been encroaching on Hong Kong culture, sometimes with tiny little changes (putting up PRC flags at government buildings), sometimes with more overt ones (like playing the PRC anthem before news broadcasts, putting up a huge Peoples Liberation Army logo on their building right at the harbor) and sometimes with major ones (allowing a LOT more mainland visitors which is what is causing the most issues on HKers daily lives)

But there have been even more attempts, such as trying to sneak in a compulsory "national identity education" curriculum into elementary school (basically brainwashing kids to love PRC) and the biggest one of all - putting off universal suffrage time and time again, despite it being in the constitution.

There are many more issues, but I try not to pay attention to the negative things that I have absolutely no control over. I have stopped going to TST and MK unless I absolutely have to, and just try to ignore it. If it gets to the point where it can't be ignored, and living in HK is like living in China, then I guess I will have to consider leaving :(

[SkinnyPupp]

Based on the way you write, I don't know if I am wasting my time responding, but here goes :heckno:
So in other words main-landers are coming in with money to hong kong and people from hk are complaining because they have it better than everywhere else in china because of previous british rule.
The financial benefit of all these tourists only goes to the top few conglomerates who control the tourism and luxury goods industry. If you don't sell the very few things these tourists are interested in (luxury goods, cosmetics, and baby formula), you not only see NO benefit from it, you are actually priced out of existence because rent in these areas gets hiked up so high.

As for the second part of that comment, it doesn't even make sense so I won't address it.

Well im sorry to tell you but they're all Chinese at the end of the day.

Don't get ethnicity mixed up with nationality. Hong Kong people didn't become "chinese" (nationality) until just recently. And even then, it's supposed to be "one country, two systems". It worked quite well for the first 15 years or so, but everything is changing despite it being against the constitution.

As far as ethnicity, there is no single "chinese" ethnicity. Not that ethnicity is relevant in any way in these matters.

Thats pretty much the same as when everyone in the summer goes to kelowna / that area from vancouver for vacation.

Hong Kong has a population of about 7 million. Last year, 50 million tourists came to the city. They expect this to go up to 70 million within 3 years (http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1407779/visitor-numbers-can-rise-70m-three-years-commission-says). That is 10X the population, visiting the most densely populated areas in the world. This isn't working. This is NOTHING like Kelowna getting a few thousand tourists from Vancouver in the summer.

Pretty retarded if you ask me ... this comment is what made me laugh = "I think the government should listen to our voice seriously. It has to stop allowing Chinese tourists into Hong Kong … We do not want them." What a bunch of pompous pricks. You're ALL Chinese, live with it.
I agree, these people make some pretty bad comments. Again, they are not supposed to have any influence here until STARTING in 2047. This is according to the constitution. This is causing people a lot of issues in their daily lives, and it's only going to get worse unless the government backs off.

[pastarocket]

So in other words main-landers are coming in with money to hong kong and people from hk are complaining because they have it better than everywhere else in china because of previous british rule. Well im sorry to tell you but they're all Chinese at the end of the day. Thats pretty much the same as when everyone in the summer goes to kelowna / that area from vancouver for vacation. Pretty retarded if you ask me ... this comment is what made me laugh = "I think the government should listen to our voice seriously. It has to stop allowing Chinese tourists into Hong Kong … We do not want them." What a bunch of pompous pricks. You're ALL Chinese, live with it.

Hong Kong people do not see themselves as the same kind of Chinese as the Mainland Chinese. Perhaps it may be due to a British influence when Hong Kong colony was a colony which makes Hong Kongers think they are "westernized" in their lifestyle and way of thinking.
Do they think that they are more civilized than mainland Chinese? Perhaps.


I was born and raised in Vancouver so the stereotypes about mainlanders that I mention here are all from Hong Kong people who I have met in my life. I have seen some of these stereotypical behaviours in the Lower Mainland:


No care for personal hygiene. Adults spitting everywhere. Parents taking their kids out for a potty break using a garbage can on a street or other public area. Example: There was a story last year about a mother taking her kid for a pee in a garbage can in Richmond centre mall. Mainland Chinese? Perhaps.

No fashion sense: A friend from Hong Kong has told me that he has seen a guy wearing a suit and a pair of slippers, while using a wheelbarrow to do construction work in China. Seriously.

Consumer Spending based solely on cash.

Questionable taste in terms of modifying their cars.

[eurochevy]

Based on the way you write, I don't know if I am wasting my time responding, but here goes :heckno:
The financial benefit of all these tourists only goes to the top few conglomerates who control the tourism and luxury goods industry. If you don't sell the very few things these tourists are interested in (luxury goods, cosmetics, and baby formula), you not only see NO benefit from it, you are actually priced out of existence because rent in these areas gets hiked up so high.

As for the second part of that comment, it doesn't even make sense so I won't address it.

Don't get ethnicity mixed up with nationality. Hong Kong people didn't become "chinese" (nationality) until just recently. And even then, it's supposed to be "one country, two systems". It worked quite well for the first 15 years or so, but everything is changing despite it being against the constitution.

As far as ethnicity, there is no single "chinese" ethnicity. Not that ethnicity is relevant in any way in these matters.


Hong Kong has a population of about 7 million. Last year, 50 million tourists came to the city. By They expect this to go up to 70 million within 3 years (http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1407779/visitor-numbers-can-rise-70m-three-years-commission-says). That is 10X the population, visiting the most densely populated areas in the world. This isn't working. This is NOTHING like Kelowna getting a few thousand tourists from Vancouver in the summer.

I agree, these people make some pretty bad comments. Again, they are not supposed to have any influence here until STARTING in 2047. This is according to the constitution. This is causing people a lot of issues in their daily lives, and it's only going to get worse unless the government backs off.
As for the rent thing = same problem we have here with chinese / asian rich people coming and investing money here and buying up all the property, literally pretty much exactly the same if thats the way you put it.
Hong Kong people do not see themselves as the same kind of Chinese as the Mainland Chinese. Perhaps it may be due to a British influence when Hong Kong colony was a colony which makes Hong Kongers think they are "westernized" in their lifestyle and way of thinking.
Do they think that they are more civilized than mainland Chinese? Perhaps.


I was born and raised in Vancouver so the stereotypes about mainlanders that I mention here are all from Hong Kong people who I have met in my life. I have witnessed some of these stereotypes in life:

No care for personal hygiene. Adults spitting everywhere. Parents taking their kids out for a potty break using a garbage can on a street or other public area. Example: There was a story last year about a mother taking her kid for a pee in a garbage can in Richmond centre mall. Mainland Chinese? Perhaps.

No fashion sense: A friend from Hong Kong has told me that he has seen a guy wearing a suit and a pair of slippers, while using a wheelbarrow to do construction work in China Seriously.

Consumer Spending based solely on cash.

Questionable taste in terms of modifying their cars.


Saying HK people don't consider themselves Chinese ? ..well guess what why not form an independent nation then from the get go instead of going back to chinese rule.

Also next person - the fact you mention the richmond peeing thing and even remotely say its a "mainlander perhaps" is kind of funny. I'm sorry but does HK belong to china ? = yes ... its inevitable that china wants to make hk more like the rest of china they're communist gov what do you expect. The only way to seperate is to some how become your own country. North and South korea = 2 different countries. Best comparison is Quebec wanting to form its own country from Canada. Quebec has different laws criminal and civil. Biggest difference from us and china? we arn't communist and wish to impose english all over quebec, we just let them be and live in their own little world. However they still are Canadian when it comes down to it.

[Roach]

I spent two weeks in Hong Kong & a couple of days in Macau in 2011. As an oblivious brown-guy tourist, I knew very little about the difference between Chinese mainlanders and those raised in colonial Hong Kong before going in. Those differences, however, became readily apparent upon spending time in Macau and visiting the luxury shops around TST.

I don't want to get into specifics, but it was easy to observe many instances of a lack of culture & social awareness among the mainland set.

It wore me down enough to the point that I got into a confrontation with someone over cutting a long line-up. Not something I would normally do, but the egregious nature of this person's behaviour set me off for some reason.

I can't imagine living through it on a daily basis, and in some way, seeing your own society start to degrade.

With that being said, I'm not sure that this type of protest will bring about change. If anything, it makes colonial HK'ers look no better than the populace they are protesting against.

Kev

[yray]

Saying HK people don't consider themselves Chinese ? ..well guess what why not form an independent nation then from the get go instead of going back to chinese rule.


And you think the british didn't thought of that? China would just waltz their PLA across a 50m river while Britain would have to sail their forces half way around the world. Falklands 2.0? :fuckthatshit:

[Razor Ramon HG]

From the perspective of someone that went to HK for the first time as a CBC this past summer, I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary.

But when some mainlanders got on the bus, my aunt (who lives there) complained to me in private.

[EmperorIS]

How bad is TST & MK now? ... to the point where you have to avoid them?

The last time I went back in 2010, I did not see much out of the oridinary besides the occasional circle squats in the middle of the mall.

Has Hong Kong really gotten that bad over the last 4 years? or just certain tourists areas of Hong Kong?

[Mr.HappySilp]

I think this have more to do with their supplies, benfits is being used by people in China.

I heard from my aunt in Hong Kong that some of the everyday goods is constantly sold out because people in China bought them all.

Just image if you go to T&T Superstore, Saves on and you find out the items you want to buy is constantly sold out(canned foods, pop, milk, butter, bread, meat.....) and you have to drive another 40 to 50mins to get them. This happens every single day for a few years. I am sure you will be piss too.

Is not just happening in Hong Kong, is happening in here as well. Once I was at Superstore this dude was complaining because some people were buying some items more than 4 items (I guess it was on sale and there is a limit of 4 item per person) and the person who broke the rule was as Asian. Basically the manager have to come in and stop the Asian from buying more than 4 items. Being Asian the guy fought back.

Is going to be a problem in Vancouver as well, that's why the feds are trying to stop it. Last year they took 4 jobs out that international student can use it to apply for citizenship. Now they are looking for ways for stop from people coming here and have baby thus granting them automatically Canadian citizenship.

[EmperorIS]

I think this have more to do with their supplies, benfits is being used by people in China.

I heard from my aunt in Hong Kong that some of the everyday goods is constantly sold out because people in China bought them all.

Just image if you go to T&T Superstore, Saves on and you find out the items you want to buy is constantly sold out(canned foods, pop, milk, butter, bread, meat.....) and you have to drive another 40 to 50mins to get them. This happens every single day for a few years. I am sure you will be piss too.

Is not just happening in Hong Kong, is happening in here as well. Once I was at Superstore this dude was complaining because some people were buying some items more than 4 items (I guess it was on sale and there is a limit of 4 item per person) and the person who broke the rule was as Asian. Basically the manager have to come in and stop the Asian from buying more than 4 items. Being Asian the guy fought back.

Is going to be a problem in Vancouver as well, that's why the feds are trying to stop it. Last year they took 4 jobs out that international student can use it to apply for citizenship. Now they are looking for ways for stop from people coming here and have baby thus granting them automatically Canadian citizenship.

How is this a legitimate reason to hate on mainlanders though? It just sounds like Hong Kongers are unwilling to adapt. They had it too good for the last 100 years and now a little inconvenience they quickly jump to blame the scapegoat.

[trd2343]

I was born and raised in Vancouver so the stereotypes about mainlanders that I mention here are all from Hong Kong people who I have met in my life. I have seen some of these stereotypical behaviours in the Lower Mainland:


But that's the point, are these stereotypes an accurate depiction of what the reality is? Just strictly speaking about personal hygiene, how many cases do we have actually have, per number of Chinese (from China) that immigrate to Canada?

[Gululu]

lol. no comments.

[tarobbt]

As for the rent thing = same problem we have here with chinese / asian rich people coming and investing money here and buying up all the property, literally pretty much exactly the same if thats the way you put it.



Saying HK people don't consider themselves Chinese ? ..well guess what why not form an independent nation then from the get go instead of going back to chinese rule.

Also next person - the fact you mention the richmond peeing thing and even remotely say its a "mainlander perhaps" is kind of funny. I'm sorry but does HK belong to china ? = yes ... its inevitable that china wants to make hk more like the rest of china they're communist gov what do you expect. The only way to seperate is to some how become your own country. North and South korea = 2 different countries. Best comparison is Quebec wanting to form its own country from Canada. Quebec has different laws criminal and civil. Biggest difference from us and china? we arn't communist and wish to impose english all over quebec, we just let them be and live in their own little world. However they still are Canadian when it comes down to it.\

Oh wee, what a genius, form your own nation and refuse to be part of China. Too bad politics aren't so black and white, that's like saying if Tibet could break off and form it's own little place but the PRC refuses and will drive a tank through the people if it has to in order to hold Tibet.

Last time I checked, HK still has it's own separate laws and policies.(Unless things changed recently) The bigger issue seems to be the general HK population who are disgusted with how Mainland Chinese conduct themselves.

Kind of like how some folks aren't too fond of a handful of Americans conducting themselves while vacationing in their country, but when you have swarms and swarms of the population coming in, I see how it can be a problem.

:hotbaby:

[eurochevy]

\

Oh wee, what a genius, form your own nation and refuse to be part of China. Too bad politics aren't so black and white, that's like saying if Tibet could break off and form it's own little place but the PRC refuses and will drive a tank through the people if it has to in order to hold Tibet.

Last time I checked, HK still has it's own separate laws and policies.(Unless things changed recently) The bigger issue seems to be the general HK population who are disgusted with how Mainland Chinese conduct themselves.

Kind of like how some folks aren't too fond of a handful of Americans conducting themselves while vacationing in their country, but when you have swarms and swarms of the population coming in, I see how it can be a problem.

:hotbaby:

I never said it would be easy to form your own nation :suspicious:

[yray]

^Only way to form your own nation peacefully is to get kicked out by one :troll: aka singapore

[jackmeister]

Everyone who's from HK or been overseas enough would understand how HK people think they're above Mainland people. "Apparently" HK people is culturally, morally, and ethically superior than Mainland Chinese. They may never openly admit it, but they know it's always on the back of their mind.

[tarobbt]

I never said it would be easy to form your own nation :suspicious:

You sure did make it sound pretty easy with a knee jerk comment :whistle:

[dachinesedude]

How is this a legitimate reason to hate on mainlanders though? It just sounds like Hong Kongers are unwilling to adapt. They had it too good for the last 100 years and now a little inconvenience they quickly jump to blame the scapegoat.

there is a reason why they are called locusts, they come in swarms and take away your resources

its not just food; hospitals and schools are also resources being taken away

ask someone from sheung shui how they feel about mainlanders, they have it the worst

[EmperorIS]

Honger are just jealous at the fact that the country people they used to make fun of are now richer and more powerful than they are. Instead of working hard to regain their status they start blaming every inconvenience and negativity on the Mainlanders.

I can agree that the difference of culture the Mainlanders bring into Hong Kong can turn some faces, but its no reason to attack an entire demographic.

[EmperorIS]

there is a reason why they are called locusts, they come in swarms and take away your resources

its not just food; hospitals and schools are also resources being taken away

ask someone from sheung shui how they feel about mainlanders, they have it the worst

But how is that the mainlanders fault? That sounds more like an governmental regulatory issue.

If you have something that people want, its only natural people will swarm to it. Mainlander or not.

If there is truly not enough supplies, hospitals or even food to go around. That sounds like its up to the government to regulate and bring in more resources.

I, however do not think this is the case. I think this is just an excuse for the average joes in Hong Kong to blame the mainlanders for their misfortune or inconvenience.

[Alby]

nothing against mainlanders, but they do have a bigger tendancy to swarm stuff they want. take toilet paper on sale as an example. everyone needs it, but mostly you see mainlanders swarming for that as opposed to anyone else.

[trd2343]

^
Are there no rules that prevents non-permanent resident from enrolling their children in school?

Something similar to Vancouver where you can only go to schools in your area or it's very difficult to do cross-boundary (I think that has changed though).

[EmperorIS]

nothing against mainlanders, but they do have a bigger tendancy to swarm stuff they want. take toilet paper on sale as an example. everyone needs it, but mostly you see mainlanders swarming for that as opposed to anyone else.

That's not an mainlander issue. That's an individual's upbringing issue. It just so happens a number of mainlanders that share this swarm mentality. I've seen Hong Kongers and other nationality/enthic groups do the exact same thing. When you were brought up poor and hungry for the last few generations, you tend to behave like that. To get what you can, when you can.

[eurochevy]

That's not an mainlander issue. That's an individual's upbringing issue. It just so happens a number of mainlanders that share this swarm mentality. I've seen Hong Kongers and other nationality/enthic groups do the exact same thing. When you were brought up poor and hungry for the last few generations, you tend to behave like that. To get what you can, when you can.

up-bringing is everything. That's how you get rid of racism and stereotypes etc.. Put kids into a room, young kids, none of them will care what colour or ethnicity they are, just that they're different from one another. Kindergarten playground for example. Just want to kick a ball around :concentrate: <- little derps and derpettes

[Alby]

That's not an mainlander issue. That's an individual's upbringing issue. It just so happens a number of mainlanders that share this swarm mentality. I've seen Hong Kongers and other nationality/enthic groups do the exact same thing. When you were brought up poor and hungry for the last few generations, you tend to behave like that. To get what you can, when you can.

well, there you go.

[EmperorIS]

well, there you go.

Yes and?

That's still not an legitimate reason.

[bobbinka]

So in other words main-landers are coming in with money to hong kong and people from hk are complaining because they have it better than everywhere else in china because of previous british rule. Well im sorry to tell you but they're all Chinese at the end of the day. Thats pretty much the same as when everyone in the summer goes to kelowna / that area from vancouver for vacation. Pretty retarded if you ask me ... this comment is what made me laugh = "I think the government should listen to our voice seriously. It has to stop allowing Chinese tourists into Hong Kong … We do not want them." What a bunch of pompous pricks. You're ALL Chinese, live with it.


Saying HK people don't consider themselves Chinese ? ..well guess what why not form an independent nation then from the get go instead of going back to chinese rule.

I'm sorry but does HK belong to china ? = yes ... its inevitable that china wants to make hk more like the rest of china they're communist gov what do you expect. The only way to seperate is to some how become your own country. North and South korea = 2 different countries. Best comparison is Quebec wanting to form its own country from Canada. Quebec has different laws criminal and civil. Biggest difference from us and china? we arn't communist and wish to impose english all over quebec, we just let them be and live in their own little world. However they still are Canadian when it comes down to it.

1). Ethnicity does not equate Nationality.
2). Quebec is very different from the rest of Canada and is only that way because of the history in how our nation was formed and because they fought for it.
3). Quebecers are still Canadians, but everyone who has interacted with them know they do not consider themselves to be the same "Canadians" as the rest us. They are proudly French Canadians, Francophones.
4). A very large percentage of French Canadians still believe Quebec should be a sovereign nation, even now. "Letting them be and live their own little world" hasn't changed that.
5). Despite all of us being Canadians, French Canadians will be very upset/angry if they find out you don't speak/understand French (even if they know you're from the west coast). But we're all Canadians, why can't they just live with it?
6). North Korea and South Korea are two nations because of WWII. They didn't just one day decide to separate and call it a day.
7). How long did it take for Canada to form independence from Britain?
8). How long did it take for USA to form independence from Britain? How many lives were lost?
9). HK did not have a choice in whether it returned to PRC
10). PRC would never let HK just pack up and leave

I never said it would be easy to form your own nation :suspicious:

What should they do then to form their own nation?

[7seven]

No care for personal hygiene. Adults spitting everywhere. Parents taking their kids out for a potty break using a garbage can on a street or other public area. Example: There was a story last year about a mother taking her kid for a pee in a garbage can in Richmond centre mall. Mainland Chinese? Perhaps.

No fashion sense: A friend from Hong Kong has told me that he has seen a guy wearing a suit and a pair of slippers, while using a wheelbarrow to do construction work in China. Seriously.

Questionable taste in terms of modifying their cars.

While I can understand why the Hong Kong people are upset and I can relate, I had to laugh because what you described about mainlanders is exactly how I see the honger crowd/type here in Vancouver. I'm chinese myself and I refuse to go to Richmond unless its to the airport and I've had many confrontations locally with hongers here in Vancouver over their manners and interactions with others in public.

[Drow]

good thing my family flew us out of HK when i was still a kid. I did not have to experience this mainland takeover

to put it simply, the hongers are mad because their lifestyle is slowly and steadily being taken over by mainlanders

i am by no means an expert on the hong kong sequence events, i only visit every now and then. but i know enough hongers and have enough relatives in HK so this is what i got from it:

1. HK being returned to China, with promises of "10 years no change"

2. slowly the china government is reforming the SAR

3. mainlanders, people whom the hongers have always looked down upon, are slowly being granted passage into the city

4. these mainlanders eventually being a significant portion of the HK population, and accompanying them are their distasteful habits which hongers have ALWAYS looked down upon (pooping peeing in public, horrible sounding mandarin, being rude)

5. because of this, mandarin has also become one of the city's main languages, which used to be purely cantonese

6. honger lives are forever changed due to the actions of the china government



and its not exactly like vancouver either, the mainlanders in vancouver i'd say are more well-behaved. poor mainlanders are able to go into HK, however it is more difficult for them to come to vancouver

GG HK

[eurochevy]

1). Ethnicity does not equate Nationality.
2). Quebec is very different from the rest of Canada and is only that way because of the history in how our nation was formed and because they fought for it.
3). Quebecers are still Canadians, but everyone who has interacted with them know they do not consider themselves to be the same "Canadians" as the rest us. They are proudly French Canadians, Francophones.
4). A very large percentage of French Canadians still believe Quebec should be a sovereign nation, even now. "Letting them be and live their own little world" hasn't changed that.
5). Despite all of us being Canadians, French Canadians will be very upset/angry if they find out you don't speak/understand French (even if they know you're from the west coast). But we're all Canadians, why can't they just live with it?
6). North Korea and South Korea are two nations because of WWII. They didn't just one day decide to separate and call it a day.
7). How long did it take for Canada to form independence from Britain?
8). How long did it take for USA to form independence from Britain? How many lives were lost?
9). HK did not have a choice in whether it returned to PRC
10). PRC would never let HK just pack up and leave



What should they do then to form their own nation?
Maybe you should go talk to a politician and ask them, OBVIOUSLY I have no idea how to form your own nation. Why are you even asking me to answer that like im supposed to know the steps and ways to become your own nation:suspicious:

[twitchyzero]

PRC gov't didn't keep their words? how shocking!
on a serious note i didn't realize the Basic Law was only valid for 50 years

how come then it seems more immigrants from Hong Kong living in Canada has moved back since 97? Or is it simply that mass migration from Mainland China made it appear the local 'HK population' is dwindling?

[trd2343]

1). Ethnicity does not equate Nationality.
2). Quebec is very different from the rest of Canada and is only that way because of the history in how our nation was formed and because they fought for it.
3). Quebecers are still Canadians, but everyone who has interacted with them know they do not consider themselves to be the same "Canadians" as the rest us. They are proudly French Canadians, Francophones.
4). A very large percentage of French Canadians still believe Quebec should be a sovereign nation, even now. "Letting them be and live their own little world" hasn't changed that.
5). Despite all of us being Canadians, French Canadians will be very upset/angry if they find out you don't speak/understand French (even if they know you're from the west coast). But we're all Canadians, why can't they just live with it?
6). North Korea and South Korea are two nations because of WWII. They didn't just one day decide to separate and call it a day.
7). How long did it take for Canada to form independence from Britain?
8). How long did it take for USA to form independence from Britain? How many lives were lost?
9). HK did not have a choice in whether it returned to PRC
10). PRC would never let HK just pack up and leave



What should they do then to form their own nation?

I'm not sure if you're likening the situation of HK-China with other countries like Canada or US, but I don't think they're apples to apples.

Correct me if I'm wrong, the land that HK occupies right now does belong to China (or government of China), so HK does indeed not have a choice whether HK (or at least the land) is returned to PRC.

In terms of leaving, maybe PRC would never let HK just pack and leave, but the citizens definitely had a choice and chance to leave HK before it was returned to HK, ie immigrate to Canada. These people took their chances as well because there's no guarantee what's life going to be like across the globe. Some manage to survive, some pay a price for coming here (bad job prospects, or not being able to find a job in the same profession).

I do agree that nationality and ethnicity are two different things. But for China/Chinese, for a long period of time, or till this past decade, nationality = ethnicity for China/Chinese.

[Hehe]

The problem that HK has with PRC, from what I can observe during my business trips, is that HK people no longer have control over HK.

No matter how displeased they are with mainlanders, it's no longer up to them to adjust any immigration laws to prevent mainlanders from visiting/entering.

PRC basically took over, and started taking away the "democracy" part of HK, by replacing it with a central government, which, whatever it says, counts.

When people can no longer make their opinion counts, democracy dies. This is what's happening in HK. HKers complain day-in-and-day-out; one sees it on every newspaper, every TV station. (the "democracy" part still allowed) And what PRC feels about it? Not a fuck given.

[bobbinka]

Why are you even asking me to answer that like im supposed to know the steps and ways to become your own nation:suspicious:

So you don't know. You also don't know the history, politics, and relations of PRC & HK (as well as Canada/Quebec). Granted, not everyone needs to know this stuff, but if you don't you shouldn't be making comments and suggestions like:

What a bunch of pompous pricks. You're ALL Chinese, live with it.

Saying HK people don't consider themselves Chinese ? ..well guess what why not form an independent nation then from the get go instead of going back to chinese rule.

The only way to seperate is to some how become your own country. North and South korea = 2 different countries. Best comparison is Quebec wanting to form its own country from Canada. Quebec has different laws criminal and civil. Biggest difference from us and china? we arn't communist and wish to impose english all over quebec, we just let them be and live in their own little world. However they still are Canadian when it comes down to it.

[bobbinka]

I'm not sure if you're likening the situation of HK-China with other countries like Canada or US, but I don't think they're apples to apples.


Eurochevy was using Canada/Quebec and North Korea/South Korea as comparison. I am pointing out that they're not the same.

[pastarocket]

To the mainland Chinese and people of Hong Kong:

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/38/3861cee0d9bd600e9e620f120349c5e8ab579a927d1d85f727 26613bcc0aeead.jpg

[yray]

At least Patten was right.
Chris Patten's speech on his last Policy Address in Hong Kong - YouTube
skip to 1:38


There was no way Hong Kong could ever be independent.

It's not even a self sustaining territory, Water, Power, and livestock originated from the mainland since the 80s.

There is no justification for granting them independence. Following the unfair treaties, New territories was to return to China in 1997; even then, the sovereignty of Hong Kong island itself was questionable. It was clear in the 70s that PRC will outright refuse any other option except for the peaceful return of HK. If Britain refused returning, China would just send her armies down and take over HK within a day. Falklands 2.0 :fuckthatshit:

Coming down to What ifs... If Britain did declare Hong Kong independent, would other nations recognize Hong Kong as a independent state? Can Hong Kong have it's own military force to protect and defend her national borders. Will the economy collapse due to mass exodus of funds?

http://youtu.be/C4WJJd2WP7E
Part 1 of 5, A BBC Doc about the politics of the turnover, you can clearly see there are some that are pro Hong Kong and others that are as long as there's money, who cares.

[twitchyzero]

good thing my family flew us out of HK when i was still a kid. I did not have to experience this mainland takeover

to put it simply, the hongers are mad because their lifestyle is slowly and steadily being taken over by mainlanders

i am by no means an expert on the hong kong sequence events, i only visit every now and then. but i know enough hongers and have enough relatives in HK so this is what i got from it:

1. HK being returned to China, with promises of "10 years no change"

2. slowly the china government is reforming the SAR

3. mainlanders, people whom the hongers have always looked down upon, are slowly being granted passage into the city

4. these mainlanders eventually being a significant portion of the HK population, and accompanying them are their distasteful habits which hongers have ALWAYS looked down upon (pooping peeing in public, horrible sounding mandarin, being rude)

5. because of this, mandarin has also become one of the city's main languages, which used to be purely cantonese

6. honger lives are forever changed due to the actions of the china government



and its not exactly like vancouver either, the mainlanders in vancouver i'd say are more well-behaved. poor mainlanders are able to go into HK, however it is more difficult for them to come to vancouver

GG HK

you just described the premise of this movie perfectly :troll:
http://blabla.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/district9poster2.jpg

[Alby]

Yes and?

That's still not an legitimate reason.

well, you answered it yourself. if a person's upbringing gives them the mentality to swarm, guess what, they will grow up and swarm no matter how others see it.

if you were born and raised and someone tells you 1+1=3. guess what, you will say 3 when someone asks you what 1+1 is. sure, people can tell you that you're wrong and that the right answer is 2. it's up to you to make that change. you can teach those people don't swarm and it's up to them to make that change themselves.

[SkinnyPupp]

How bad is TST & MK now? ... to the point where you have to avoid them?

The last time I went back in 2010, I did not see much out of the oridinary besides the occasional circle squats in the middle of the mall.

Has Hong Kong really gotten that bad over the last 4 years? or just certain tourists areas of Hong Kong?
Certain areas (like the aforementioned) seem to get worse every year

Especially MK, since this month they stopped shutting down Sai Yeung Choi st, making it a pedestrian-only after 4pm. Now that they only do this on Sundays, it's a nightmare to go there during the week.

[iEatClams]

I'm not chinese, but I do see the lack of socially accepted behaviors from the "mainlanders".

excuse my ignorance? but cant there be a program or some sort of education movement to educated them on what's acceptable and what isn't?

ie. spitting, taking a piss in the public and not washrooms, just their general rude-ness?
cant there be a program that teaches kids manners in elementary school or signs in telling people not to urinate in public etc?

[SkinnyPupp]

But how is that the mainlanders fault? That sounds more like an governmental regulatory issue.

If you have something that people want, its only natural people will swarm to it. Mainlander or not.

If there is truly not enough supplies, hospitals or even food to go around. That sounds like its up to the government to regulate and bring in more resources.

I, however do not think this is the case. I think this is just an excuse for the average joes in Hong Kong to blame the mainlanders for their misfortune or inconvenience.
That's a good point, and that's the problem I have with groups like in the OP. You'll notice that in my posts, I have never complained about any particular group by nationality, in terms of complaints about certain areas being ruined by stampedes of tourists. Because it doesn't matter where they are from, the end result is all that matters. Tons of rude people with suitcases and cigarettes, taking up a lot of space, driving up prices, making all the good stores leave to be replaced by more luxury goods stores and cosmetics stores.

The inept government is allowing this to happen, and the greedy business people are taking advantage. The PRC sees this as a good thing, as they get a 'head start' to cultural integration. I don't know, but I think they must assume that Hong Kong will eventually "get used to it"... Either that, or it will be like Macau where the tourists outnumber the locals so much, that it might as well just be in mainland china.

People can be awesome or shitty, or anywhere in between, no matter where they are from. Generally things are done differently in certain parts of the world, and that may be unacceptable to some. So if you don't like Indian culture and the way things are done there, you just wouldn't live there. Same for mainland china.. if you don't like the way things are done there, you wouldn't move there. The problem here is, the people who don't like those aspects of that culture have no choice in the matter; "they" are moving in, like it or not. Just because you don't want to live in a certain culture, doesn't mean you are "looking down" on them, or are even an asshole. If you don't like it, you don't like it.

So who cares where the locusts are from? Ignore that issue. Ignore the claims of "jealousy" and other idiotic points people try to make. The fact is, people here are losing their home rapidly. Some will react like those in OP, others will see it as an opportunity to get rich, others will just crumble and lose their identity and culture, some will fight for democracy, and some will just get up and leave.

Also I just want to throw in that Hong Kong was never "returned to China", since PRC didn't exist when HK was formed, and "China" is just a land mass. It was "handed over" to the "Peoples Republic of China". Simply using "China" to describe the country "Peoples Republic of China" leads to this type of confusion. In shorthand, I guess it doesn't really matter, but when discussing this kind of thing, it's pretty important to make the distinction. This is what causes the confusion of being "returned to China".. well maybe it was returned to "China", but who is China? back then, it was the dynasty.. after that, it was the Republic of China. Now it's the Peoples Republic of China. It's basically just a land mass, so it would make more sense to refer to it as the nation.. either PRC, or "Mainland China" makes a lot more sense.

[bobbinka]

excuse my ignorance? but cant there be a program or some sort of education movement to educated them on what's acceptable and what isn't?


if they don't think it's a problem there, they dont think anything needs fixing.

"acceptable" is relative. what they consider acceptable may be unacceptable to us, and what we consider acceptable may be unacceptable to them.

[trd2343]

So who cares where the locusts are from? Ignore that issue. Ignore the claims of "jealousy" and other idiotic points people try to make. The fact is, people here are losing their home rapidly. Some will react like those in OP, others will see it as an opportunity to get rich, others will just crumble and lose their identity and culture, some will fight for democracy, and some will just get up and leave.

If people (Hongers) lose their identity and culture, then what exactly defines a HK identity and culture? In what ways is it different from a China/Chinese identity and culture?

Are we talking about traditions, such as holidays (CNY), family/social values, etc.?

[SkinnyPupp]

If people (Hongers) lose their identity and culture, then what exactly defines a HK identity and culture? In what ways is it different from a China/Chinese identity and culture?

Are we talking about traditions, such as holidays (CNY), family/social values, etc.?
Yes

[RFlush]

A lot of people posting here are CBC and only go to HK once every few years or those who were born in Hong Kong and immigrated to Canada. So that means that you or your parents or your grandparents moved away to find a better life. There are also people who were born in Canada and moved to HK, again to seek a better opportunity or life. No matter what, people will do what's best for their life and will try to enrich themselves.

When the hongers first moved to Canada, they were rude, they were selfish, they didn't speak English, they built high fences and gates to block their houses from their neighbours and they even established their own community (ie Richmond) where at one point you needed to speak cantonese to order food. But Canada is great in that we accept that, we integrated and we were told not to be racist, not to be xenophobic and to welcome globalization and be multicultured.

Hong Kong on the otherhand is one of the most racist and xenopobic places I have ever been. If you are from SE Asia, no matter what you are looked down upon. If you are from mainland, you are looked down upon. If you are from a western country, you are praised. For those who just come to visit for a week or two, you cannot comprehend what it is truly like. HK is run by greed, it always has been and always will be.

Many of the younger generation in HK are retarded. They do not see things from the bigger picture and are just sheep. They complain that the PRC will take away their rights of freedom and their capitalistic ways, yet they are destroying HK themselves, NOT the mainlanders. By adding extra taxes, having limits of milk powder, wanting a tourist tax. This is not the pre 97 HK that was free. It's ironic that hongers don't want to be ruled by the PRC yet they want to implement policies that are similar to the regime, something they are against.

Rents increasing, shortage and increase price of milk powder, and more luxury shops. How stupid are hongers to blame mainlanders when the rent increase is due to the developers limiting supply as well as the government. The shortage and increase price of milk powder is because greedy ass shops are hoarding away and increasing the price for more profit. More luxury shops because the landlords know they can have higher ROI if they rent out to Chow Tai Fok as oppose to a small mom and pop shop. Yes, it's the mainlanders who are shopping here, but its the supply that is controled by the people of HK and the government which is fucking over hk, not the mainlanders.

Remember, everyone just wants to be better off themselves. Those who immigrated to Canada are no different than mainlanders who want to buy nicer things or move to HK.

HK is a shithole with retarded people arguing about rude people when harassing innocent tourist like this is way worse than any mainlander shopping.

Also, I find it funny that retarded news like this makes to rs while one ever mentions about Erwiana Sulistyaningsih or the other abuse cases that the fdh have to endure. Or how retarded HK is for imposing sanctions towards the Philippines over a single bus incident.

[SkinnyPupp]

A lot of people posting here are CBC and only go to HK once every few years or those who were born in Hong Kong and immigrated to Canada. So that means that you or your parents or your grandparents moved away to find a better life. There are also people who were born in Canada and moved to HK, again to seek a better opportunity or life. No matter what, people will do what's best for their life and will try to enrich themselves.

When the hongers first moved to Canada, they were rude, they were selfish, they didn't speak English, they built high fences and gates to block their houses from their neighbours and they even established their own community (ie Richmond) where at one point you needed to speak cantonese to order food. But Canada is great in that we accept that, we integrated and we were told not to be racist, not to be xenophobic and to welcome globalization and be multicultured.

Hong Kong on the otherhand is one of the most racist and xenopobic places I have ever been. If you are from SE Asia, no matter what you are looked down upon. If you are from mainland, you are looked down upon. If you are from a western country, you are praised. For those who just come to visit for a week or two, you cannot comprehend what it is truly like. HK is run by greed, it always has been and always will be.

Many of the younger generation in HK are retarded. They do not see things from the bigger picture and are just sheep. They complain that the PRC will take away their rights of freedom and their capitalistic ways, yet they are destroying HK themselves, NOT the mainlanders. By adding extra taxes, having limits of milk powder, wanting a tourist tax. This is not the pre 97 HK that was free. It's ironic that hongers don't want to be ruled by the PRC yet they want to implement policies that are similar to the regime, something they are against.

Rents increasing, shortage and increase price of milk powder, and more luxury shops. How stupid are hongers to blame mainlanders when the rent increase is due to the developers limiting supply as well as the government. The shortage and increase price of milk powder is because greedy ass shops are hoarding away and increasing the price for more profit. More luxury shops because the landlords know they can have higher ROI if they rent out to Chow Tai Fok as oppose to a small mom and pop shop. Yes, it's the mainlanders who are shopping here, but its the supply that is controled by the people of HK and the government which is fucking over hk, not the mainlanders.

Remember, everyone just wants to be better off themselves. Those who immigrated to Canada are no different than mainlanders who want to buy nicer things or move to HK.

HK is a shithole with retarded people arguing about rude people when harassing innocent tourist like this is way worse than any mainlander shopping.

Also, I find it funny that retarded news like this makes to rs while one ever mentions about Erwiana Sulistyaningsih or the other abuse cases that the fdh have to endure. Or how retarded HK is for imposing sanctions towards the Philippines over a single bus incident.
Comparing immigration to Canada, even in extreme cases like Richmond where the new immigrants make up 40% or 50% or whatever it is... is not even remotely close to taking your population, and having visitors be 10 TIMES the population. Especially when you consider how crowded the place already is. You just can't make that comparison. Not even a little bit.

If Richmond (or hell, all of Canada if you want) had 10X its population being visited by people who are driving rates up 800%, pissing in the streets, running people over with suitcases, smoking cigarettes everywhere and throwing the trash wherever they feel like it... Do you think the people and government would just stand by and let it happen? I think it would be even worse than what we're seeing here. Imagine if it's in America?

Saying "HK people are retarded" or anything like that is just hateful and you don't have any point to make there. Some people are retarded, some people are not retarded. Generalizing like that is no better than whaever point you're attempting to make on racism.

I agree that there is definitely racism, not just to SE asians but to anyone who isn't han chinese pretty much. But I don't think I have ever seen malicious racism or hatred. Mostly just ignorance and the general thing that ALL people do, in trying to "get over" on each other, and looking for every opportunity to do so. Being a different race is the easiest way of all for people to congregate and find a common group to stick to. In my experience actually, Japanese people are WAY WAY WAY more racist generally than HK or Chinese people. And they can get REALLY malicious with it. When I was there last year, there were plenty of protests similar to the one in the OP here, directly attacking koreans, etc. Every Sunday morning, I would have to put up with this guy who drives around Tokyo with his loudspeaker on his car, spouting out nationalist and racist propaganda all day.

And like I keep saying, there are assholes everywhere, and there are good people everywhere. There are racists everywhere, and non-racists. Focusing on that, directing hatred and vitriol towards it, is not really getting to the point of the issue people are having.

[Rainei]

if they don't think it's a problem there, they dont think anything needs fixing.

"acceptable" is relative. what they consider acceptable may be unacceptable to us, and what we consider acceptable may be unacceptable to them.

Yes, acceptable is relative. And in this instance, the "acceptable" behaviour of the mainland tourists are considered unacceptable in Hong Kong. Therefore, to impose or conduct education seminars to elighten the tourists to what is indeed acceptable in Hong Kong doesn't seem like such a bad idea.

[ae101]

im a half honger, half twanger (dads from hk mom from tw) working in china right now

hk ppl think mainlanders are: low class unpolite non educated ppl that are rich & arrogant (rich & arrogant were a recent think)

mainlanders think of hongers as: a bunch of ppl that can survive without mainlands help

now not all ppl from both sides like that, but those are some of.the.ppl i have met are like that

a really go
Posted via RS Mobile

[twitchyzero]

im a half honger, half twanger (dads from hk mom from tw) working in china right now

hk ppl think mainlanders are: low class unpolite non educated ppl that are rich & arrogant (rich & arrogant were a recent think)

mainlanders think of hongers as: a bunch of ppl that can survive without mainlands help

now not all ppl from both sides like that, but those are some of.the.ppl i have met are like that

a really go
Posted via RS Mobile

:fulloffuck: dat keyboard prediction
actually haven't met anyone that refers themself as a twanger

[SkinnyPupp]

Yes, acceptable is relative. And in this instance, the "acceptable" behaviour of the mainland tourists are considered unacceptable in Hong Kong. Therefore, to impose or conduct education seminars to elighten the tourists to what is indeed acceptable in Hong Kong doesn't seem like such a bad idea.
Yes, they have that (http://www.cnta.gov.cn/files/lin/2013/zhinan.rar). It's a guidebook with cartoons and everything. Here are some translations (http://scmpvideomojo.tumblr.com/post/64017605886/scmp-video-mojo-asked-our-amazing-graphics-team), with new graphics to go along with them

http://31.media.tumblr.com/e022275fde128bcdc2577df46189e546/tumblr_munehxSIPd1sfr2h6o3_1280.jpg

Do not: spit or spit chewing gum on the ground, litter, urinate or defecate in public, pick your nose, clean your teeth, cough or sneeze in front of others. (page 13)

[StylinRed]

I've been following the protests and imo (as always it seems) Hongers are acting like bigoted children

Can't stand that you're not allowed in stores or to take pictures whereas mainlanders can? don't hate on the mainlanders hate on the store and their honger owners

Can't stand that mainlanders are buying up all the supply of 'x' product? hate on the honger store owners for not ordering a greater supply cuz they want to drive up prices (its been a long enough issue so that owners can adjust their ordering to meet demand)

Can't stand the manners or lack there of of mainlanders? look in the mirror you guys are far from gracious and polite, far from it.

Don't hurl bigoted remarks at mainlanders and their children waiting in line to shop

Don't physically attack mainlanders and their kids who are simply waiting in line to shop

Don't act like children

You have grievances? protest peacefully / bring it up with your government representatives. Also, most of all, realize at the end of the day you are Chinese and are living in a city of China; stop hating yourself.

[RFlush]

Yes, they have that (http://www.cnta.gov.cn/files/lin/2013/zhinan.rar). It's a guidebook with cartoons and everything. Here are some translations (http://scmpvideomojo.tumblr.com/post/64017605886/scmp-video-mojo-asked-our-amazing-graphics-team), with new graphics to go along with them
To be honest, I have seen more Hong Kong locals pick their nose and clip their fingernails while on the MTR than I have seen mainlanders spitting on the street.

Also, although there are always these "random" cases, for the past 5 years I have lived in Hong Kong, I have never once seen a mainland kid piss on the street. I once saw a kid of a local parent piss in the stairwell, but that was the only time.

[dachinesedude]

Hong Kong on the otherhand is one of the most racist and xenopobic places I have ever been. If you are from SE Asia, no matter what you are looked down upon. If you are from mainland, you are looked down upon. If you are from a western country, you are praised. For those who just come to visit for a week or two, you cannot comprehend what it is truly like. HK is run by greed, it always has been and always will be.

hongers are so racist they're racist to their own race, this i agree with

Rents increasing, shortage and increase price of milk powder, and more luxury shops. How stupid are hongers to blame mainlanders when the rent increase is due to the developers limiting supply as well as the government. The shortage and increase price of milk powder is because greedy ass shops are hoarding away and increasing the price for more profit. More luxury shops because the landlords know they can have higher ROI if they rent out to Chow Tai Fok as oppose to a small mom and pop shop. Yes, it's the mainlanders who are shopping here, but its the supply that is controled by the people of HK and the government which is fucking over hk, not the mainlanders

general belief is that CY Leung was not voted by the people but appointed by PRC; aka he's PRC's puppet

so in that case the HK government = PRC = mainlanders

[trd2343]

^
The same argument can be made for Taiwan as well (whole different topic). Taiwan, HK, China, they all come from the same recent ancestors (for those whole believe in evolution and everyone came from one cell).

Nationality-wise, they may be different, but ethnicity-wise, they are all the same. So if politically speaking, it would be more correct to group everyone under Han (Chinese).

[SkinnyPupp]

To be honest, I have seen more Hong Kong locals pick their nose and clip their fingernails while on the MTR than I have seen mainlanders spitting on the street.

Also, although there are always these "random" cases, for the past 5 years I have lived in Hong Kong, I have never once seen a mainland kid piss on the street. I once saw a kid of a local parent piss in the stairwell, but that was the only time.
Totally agree! On my very first day out shopping on my first ever visit, walked into a shoe store, and a lady (probably the owner's mom or something) was sitting on a stool picking her nose... Right as I walked in, she pulled out a booger, and flicked it on the floor in front of her :heckno:

And nail clipping... that sound drives me fucking crazy.

[RFlush]

My best suggestion would be for the PRC government to open up Shanghai and develop it heavily along with Hengqin. Make it a free port, set it up as the only finance center to access dim sum bonds and set the tax rate to be very low. Invest better infrastructure and redevelopment. Move away all the finance from Hong Kong to Shanghai and remove the return home permit for Hongers and take away all the commerce.

Then hongers won't complain about mainlanders going to HK since they won't need to go to HK anymore.

The only problem is that HK would be left for dead, but as long as they have their excolonism pride, they can survive on that.

[snowball]

Well im sorry to tell you but they're all Chinese at the end of the day.

Go tell a CBC, ABC, malaysian chinese that they're the same as a mainlander because "at the end of the day" they're all chinese :whistle:

it would be the same as a honger grouped with mainlanders, way to generalize an entire group's identity. You don't decide what their identity is, they do.

[SkinnyPupp]

My best suggestion would be for the PRC government to open up Shanghai and develop it heavily along with Hengqin. Make it a free port, set it up as the only finance center to access dim sum bonds and set the tax rate to be very low. Invest better infrastructure and redevelopment. Move away all the finance from Hong Kong to Shanghai and remove the return home permit for Hongers and take away all the commerce.

Then hongers won't complain about mainlanders going to HK since they won't need to go to HK anymore.

The only problem is that HK would be left for dead, but as long as they have their excolonism pride, they can survive on that.
So much hate man.... you have so much hate inside you :okay: (note: I am not judging you, just saying)

[asahai69]

never been to hong kong. hope to visit soon. but reading most of this thread reminded me of this

Dave Chappelle - Chinese/Korean Skit - YouTube

[Manic!]

No care for personal hygiene. AParents taking their kids out for a potty break using a garbage can on a street or other public area. Example: There was a story last year about a mother taking her kid for a pee in a garbage can in Richmond centre mall. Mainland Chinese? Perhaps.

No fashion sense: A friend from Hong Kong has told me that he has seen a guy wearing a suit and a pair of slippers, while using a wheelbarrow to do construction work in China. Seriously.

Consumer Spending based solely on cash.

Questionable taste in terms of modifying their cars.

If a white person lets his kid pee in a planter it's a good call:

That's Just Good Banking - PC Financial TV Commercial Ads - YouTube

Who cares how a person dresses or modifies there car.

[Traum]

On top of everything that has already been mentioned, there are 2 additional extremely inflammatory points that have not been mentioned yet:

1) the Mainland Chinese' belittling / looking down on Hong Kong and its people
2) the colonization of Hong Kong via "uncontrolled" immigration, the deliberate displacement of Cantonese with Mandarin

The back story to #1 is a bit too long winded to go into detail, but suffice to say, a lot of the Mainland tourists go to Hong Kong with the mentality that they (Mainland Chinese tourists) are Hong Kong economy's saviours because of the tremendous tourism and retail dollars they bring. Additionally, they have been conditioned by the Mainland Chinese media into thinking that Hong Kong simply cannot survive were it not for China's exports of a comprehensive list of food items and water, so they think Hong Kongers shouldn't just be thankful of the Mainland providing them with food -- they think Hong Kongers should be ever so grateful that the Mainland is providing them with the essentials to survive.

Hong Kong people's views on this matter is quite different. While most will agree that the initial surge of Chinese tourists back in 2003 gave the city a much needed jolt to re-start the economic momentum (even though studies have only pegged that initial boost to account for ~1% of Hong Kong's GDP), SARS was also originally brought into Hong Kong by a Mainland Chinese national. Additionally, even in its current overflowing surge of Mainland tourists, the real economic activities generated from the Mainland tours are only estimated to account for 3 - 4.5% of the city's GDP. Furthermore, SkinnyPupp has already mentioned how the economic benefits from the Mainland tourists don't really filter down to the masses, and yet is causing serious disruptions to Hong Kongers regular daily lives.

The food items, in particular, is another sticking point. First of all, many Hong Kongers simply view the Chinese food exports as nothing more than a business transaction, so there is really nothing to be thankful about. On the other hand, Hong Kong has been bounded by contractual agreements to purchase "fresh" drinking water from China at exuberant prices when a) cheaper alternatives exists, and b) much of this purchased water is simply dumped into the seas. And then there is the questionable safety of Mainland Chinese food items. Recently for example, poultry imports from the Mainland has tainted the entire Hong Kong supply due to avian flu, and the entire city has been forced to cull its poultry stock in the midst of CNY when poultry consumption is a long established practice. Other similar examples are frequent, though they occur on smaller scales.

To me, #2 is likely the more inflammatory item. The Mainland government has systematically been pushing Mandarin as not just the dominant language in Mainland China, but as the nearly exclusive language of use in the country. More importantly, Mainland Chinese for some reason think that Mandarin is "superior" to other Chinese dialects and look down upon their use. The unfortunate policy and mentality have already wrecked havoc in Shanghai and Guangzhou where Shanghaiese and Cantonese are traditionally spoken, and is now extending its reach into Hong Kong. With the overwhelming majority of Hong Kongers (97% was the estimate) speaking Cantonese, the language/dialect is very much an identifying trait for people in Hong Kong. To have the Mainland government pushing policies to erode the language is a thinly veiled attempt to destroy Hong Kongers' own heritage and identity. To give this phenomenon a Canadian context, suppose Ottawa were to mandate that the entire Quebec must strictly only use English at schools and other instructional / official environments. The backlash would simply be unimaginable.

There are some very valid reasons why Hong Kongers dislike their Mainland neighbours as much as they do now, and quite frankly, I am surprised by how much shxt Hong Kongers have been putting up with all this time without some larger scale resistance/backlash.

[godwin]

To me, #2 is likely the more inflammatory item. The Mainland government has systematically been pushing Mandarin as not just the dominant language in Mainland China, but as the nearly exclusive language of use in the country. More importantly, Mainland Chinese for some reason think that Mandarin is "superior" to other Chinese dialects and look down upon their use. The unfortunate policy and mentality have already wrecked havoc in Shanghai and Guangzhou where Shanghaiese and Cantonese are traditionally spoken, and is now extending its reach into Hong Kong. With the overwhelming majority of Hong Kongers (97% was the estimate) speaking Cantonese, the language/dialect is very much an identifying trait for people in Hong Kong. To have the Mainland government pushing policies to erode the language is a thinly veiled attempt to destroy Hong Kongers' own heritage and identity. To give this phenomenon a Canadian context, suppose Ottawa were to mandate that the entire Quebec must strictly only use English at schools and other instructional / official environments. The backlash would simply be unimaginable.


Well the reason for Mandarin is because it is the "basic" dialect that had been adopted for the whole country to improve communications. It is a tool for unification. For English speakers, it is like everyone is forced to speak the Queen's English rather than Aussie or Canadian or American English. I have to say Mandarin is a heck lot easier to learn than Cantonese, since the structure has been "Romanticized".

Culturally, Mandarin vs Cantonese dialect is not as damaging as Simplified vs Traditional writing. Since simplified Chinese you do lose a lot of nuances that existed in traditional / ancient Chinese writing that have no equivalency in Simplified Chinese. PRC is caught in a pickle with that because outside of HK, the only other "geographic entity" that teaches traditional Chinese is Taiwan, now do PRC want to destroy people's ability to read traditional Chinese text just to wipe out Taiwan? That's the question.

Then again, most HK people can't write Chinese (Simplified / Traditional) worth diddly anyways these days. So I think that part of the destruction is self applied and pretty assured.

In the end, the land HK is sitting on, belongs to China and pretty much all the ocean real estate surrounding HK. I am curious what people in HK who are mad enough can do to change that.

[trd2343]

To give this phenomenon a Canadian context, suppose Ottawa were to mandate that the entire Quebec must strictly only use English at schools and other instructional / official environments. The backlash would simply be unimaginable.

There are some very valid reasons why Hong Kongers dislike their Mainland neighbours as much as they do now, and quite frankly, I am surprised by how much shxt Hong Kongers have been putting up with all this time without some larger scale resistance/backlash.

I'm assuming what you mean is that signs and textbooks will no longer need to have both English and French in them. It'll save money in this way. Who decides whether $1 million or $1 billion is worth it to keep printing signs and books with French in them? Even if you're talking about just strictly spoken language, I'm sure companies can save money from not having a French version of their automatic voice system.

Which brings to the point that the situation is a little bit different in HK-China. The written language is the same. It's just the spoken language, or dialect
that's different.

edit: If you include Traditional and Simplified Chinese, then same situation.

[twitchyzero]

On top of everything that has already been mentioned, there are 2 additional extremely inflammatory points that have not been mentioned yet:

1) the Mainland Chinese' belittling / looking down on Hong Kong and its people
2) the colonization of Hong Kong via "uncontrolled" immigration, the deliberate displacement of Cantonese with Mandarin

The back story to #1 is a bit too long winded to go into detail, but suffice to say, a lot of the Mainland tourists go to Hong Kong with the mentality that they (Mainland Chinese tourists) are Hong Kong economy's saviours because of the tremendous tourism and retail dollars they bring. Additionally, they have been conditioned by the Mainland Chinese media into thinking that Hong Kong simply cannot survive were it not for China's exports of a comprehensive list of food items and water, so they think Hong Kongers shouldn't just be thankful of the Mainland providing them with food -- they think Hong Kongers should be ever so grateful that the Mainland is providing them with the essentials to survive.

Hong Kong people's views on this matter is quite different. While most will agree that the initial surge of Chinese tourists back in 2003 gave the city a much needed jolt to re-start the economic momentum (even though studies have only pegged that initial boost to account for ~1% of Hong Kong's GDP), SARS was also originally brought into Hong Kong by a Mainland Chinese national. Additionally, even in its current overflowing surge of Mainland tourists, the real economic activities generated from the Mainland tours are only estimated to account for 3 - 4.5% of the city's GDP. Furthermore, SkinnyPupp has already mentioned how the economic benefits from the Mainland tourists don't really filter down to the masses, and yet is causing serious disruptions to Hong Kongers regular daily lives.

The food items, in particular, is another sticking point. First of all, many Hong Kongers simply view the Chinese food exports as nothing more than a business transaction, so there is really nothing to be thankful about. On the other hand, Hong Kong has been bounded by contractual agreements to purchase "fresh" drinking water from China at exuberant prices when a) cheaper alternatives exists, and b) much of this purchased water is simply dumped into the seas. And then there is the questionable safety of Mainland Chinese food items. Recently for example, poultry imports from the Mainland has tainted the entire Hong Kong supply due to avian flu, and the entire city has been forced to cull its poultry stock in the midst of CNY when poultry consumption is a long established practice. Other similar examples are frequent, though they occur on smaller scales.

To me, #2 is likely the more inflammatory item. The Mainland government has systematically been pushing Mandarin as not just the dominant language in Mainland China, but as the nearly exclusive language of use in the country. More importantly, Mainland Chinese for some reason think that Mandarin is "superior" to other Chinese dialects and look down upon their use. The unfortunate policy and mentality have already wrecked havoc in Shanghai and Guangzhou where Shanghaiese and Cantonese are traditionally spoken, and is now extending its reach into Hong Kong. With the overwhelming majority of Hong Kongers (97% was the estimate) speaking Cantonese, the language/dialect is very much an identifying trait for people in Hong Kong. To have the Mainland government pushing policies to erode the language is a thinly veiled attempt to destroy Hong Kongers' own heritage and identity. To give this phenomenon a Canadian context, suppose Ottawa were to mandate that the entire Quebec must strictly only use English at schools and other instructional / official environments. The backlash would simply be unimaginable.

There are some very valid reasons why Hong Kongers dislike their Mainland neighbours as much as they do now, and quite frankly, I am surprised by how much shxt Hong Kongers have been putting up with all this time without some larger scale resistance/backlash.
why even bring up SARS as an argument...unless you are convinced it was a biochemical weapon that's as silly as blaming Africa if you were to contract HIV/AIDS

I just dont see how any of this comes off as surprising...only victors write the history books which is quite literal in this case. New history textbooks for the kids, passively promoting 'language of the officials' etc. It's happened and still happening to so many other ethnic groups around the world. Official language at school/work, traditional dialect at home in which the latter becomes an endangered language after generations. No amount of public backlash/protest is going to change that fact so instead of channeling all this frutration/anger just stress the importance to your kids and their kids of preserving your traditions.

The basic law has an expiry date and it's only a matter of time that a communist state which owns the SAR will slowly try to absorb Hong Kong's people/resources. At least they aren't doing it by military cage rattling/brute force.

tl;dr I hope Russell Peters is right the whole world just becomes a single ethnicity/nationality with beige skin colour:accepted:

[twitchyzero]

Then again, most HK people can't write Chinese (Simplified / Traditional) worth diddly anyways these days. So I think that part of the destruction is self applied and pretty assured.

care to elaborate? wth are they teaching in school? I thought there's no phonic system like pinyin or zhuyin...so they gotta be reading/writing it

[Traum]

Well the reason for Mandarin is because it is the "basic" dialect that had been adopted for the whole country to improve communications. It is a tool for unification. For English speakers, it is like everyone is forced to speak the Queen's English rather than Aussie or Canadian or American English. I have to say Mandarin is a heck lot easier to learn than Cantonese, since the structure has been "Romanticized".

Certainly having a common language (Mandarin, in this case) is beneficial as it improves communication, and if you look at it from an economics point of view, the common language dramatically reduces the transaction costs of whatever you are doing. I am not undermining those benefits at all. I also agree that Mandarin is easier to learn than Cantonese because there are only 4 or 5 distinct sounds that forms the spoken words, whereas Cantonese has 9, I think.

The thing that is pissing off Hong Kongers is the systematic erosion/displacement of Cantonese, and a general sense of belittling of Cantonese from the Mainlanders. Back in the 90's especially, Hong Kongers have no problem welcoming the influx of Mandarin into popular culture (through the music industry, especially). The difference is, at the time, the influx was coming more from Taiwan, and Taiwanese are in general a far more respectful group than Mainlanders.


Culturally, Mandarin vs Cantonese dialect is not as damaging as Simplified vs Traditional writing. Since simplified Chinese you do lose a lot of nuances that existed in traditional / ancient Chinese writing that have no equivalency in Simplified Chinese. PRC is caught in a pickle with that because outside of HK, the only other "geographic entity" that teaches traditional Chinese is Taiwan, now do PRC want to destroy people's ability to read traditional Chinese text just to wipe out Taiwan? That's the question.

Then again, most HK people can't write Chinese (Simplified / Traditional) worth diddly anyways these days. So I think that part of the destruction is self applied and pretty assured.

I also agree with your remark regarding the cultural damage Simplified characters have, so much so that I think it should really be called the "crippled character set" (殘體字) instead of simplified characters. The cultural and identity damage I was referring to has more to do with a general everyday living type of consequence. In Shanghai and Guangzhou in particular, where the displacement of the original local language is already far more advanced, it is a really, really sad sight. In Shanghai, whole generations of youngsters have been dissuaded from speaking Shanghaiese that a lot of them no longer know how to speak it. The situation is so bad that nowadays, efforts have to made to re-introduce Shanghaiese in kindergarten as an attempt to keep the language/dialect alive.

In Guangzhou, I have both heard of stories and personally know a friend where the younger siblings cannot communicate with their grandparents because the grandparents don't know Mandarin, and the young kids don't know Cantonese. If this isn't a sad sight, I don't know what is. At the office, my coworker told me that her daughter knows she can freely speak English or Spanish to Mommy and Daddy, but she will automatically switch to Spanish only when speaking to Granny.

I'm assuming what you mean is that signs and textbooks will no longer need to have both English and French in them. It'll save money in this way. Who decides whether $1 million or $1 billion is worth it to keep printing signs and books with French in them? Even if you're talking about just strictly spoken language, I'm sure companies can save money from not having a French version of their automatic voice system.

Which brings to the point that the situation is a little bit different in HK-China. The written language is the same. It's just the spoken language, or dialect
that's different.

edit: If you include Traditional and Simplified Chinese, then same situation.
It is not a matter of money in this case -- it is a matter of culture and heritage. You just can't put a price tag on that. As I was saying, imagine what kind of backlash we will see from Quebec if Ottawa suddenly says French is getting dumped as Canada's official language and French is no longer taught in school because the majority of Canadians speak English. And yet this is what the Mainland government is slowly trying to do in Hong Kong (as it has already done in other parts of Mainland China).

[Traum]

I just dont see how any of this comes off as surprising...only victors write the history books which is quite literal in this case. New history textbooks for the kids, passively promoting 'language of the officials' etc. It's happened and still happening to so many other ethnic groups around the world. Official language at school/work, traditional dialect at home in which the latter becomes an endangered language after generations. No amount of public backlash/protest is going to change that fact so instead of channeling all this frutration/anger just stress the importance to your kids and their kids of preserving your traditions.
The difference is forced erosion/displacement versus natural occurrence. Say, if a dear friend or family member passed away due to natural causes (old age, illness, whatever), you'd probably accept that reasonably well even though you miss him. Now suppose that same friend or family member is brutally killed, are you just going to swallow that without any kind of resentment? Or are you simply going to say, "instead of channelling all that frustration/anger, you are are just going to stress the importance of peacefully accepting the reality without doing anything"? At the language front, the sentiments are exactly the same.

care to elaborate? wth are they teaching in school? I thought there's no phonic system like pinyin or zhuyin...so they gotta be reading/writing it
Compared to past generations, the current kids generally have pretty poor literature skills. Proper "spelling", grammar, and writing skills are lacking. To a certain extent, this is also happening in North America society as well -- kids and youngsters these days tend to mix a lot of Internet slangs and shorthand into their writing too. But proportionally, I'd say the problem is a lot more severe in Hong Kong.

[godwin]

Gov / business written Chinese is different from verbal vernacular especially Cantonese.. The actual pass rate for Chinese lit in their version of provincials is extremely low. That's different from the Chinese you find on Facebook. I think the pass rate is also quite low in China, because it is brutal. But don't worry they have a huge population so they can still generate a useful pool of prospects.

PinYin / Zhuyin or actually Chinese recognition systems are so good that students can pick the words. But they can't form proper sentences. The modern Chinese education system is a spiral, if you miss the basics like writing and character recognition you just can't move up the chain to literature which is needed for modern Chinese business / transaction.

As an example, the international law firms I had consulted for before I retired, love to hire lawyers that can write Chinese because they can easily conduct business on both sides of the border, especially complex litigation that require written briefs. They won't hire new grads especially "BC"s no matter they can speak all dialects fluently. We found the more fluent they are, the lazier they are. They can't written Chinese so they need to hire a translator to keep up, for an apprentice? Really? So even though most local grads who do Chinese well, are a bit "off", we rather hire them as they typically show more humility and listen, than the upidity up "English/Chinese speaking ones". Granted it is a broad stroke, but that's something we had found to be corollary.

A PSA for Canadian parents.. don't bother sending you kids to Chinese school because it is a big waste of time. Being able to write your name, order food or understand verbal instructions on how to operate a squat toilet, do nothing to help your kids' future job prospects in China.

care to elaborate? wth are they teaching in school? I thought there's no phonic system like pinyin or zhuyin...so they gotta be reading/writing it

[Hehe]

Many great points here.

The thing I don't understand is why is PRC forcing HK to take everything of it (becoming the same as mainland China)?

If HK people want to preserve their uniqueness in culture, custom and/or whatever the hell they want, why not just let it be? It's like the entire Anglophone Canadians are not forcing Francophone Canadian to join them. We just let them do whatever they want. Heck, we even adjust everything official related (public doc/sign, packaging, custom personnels... etc) to accommodate our fellow French Canadians.

PRC should really stop this non-sense. If they really just consider HK as a SAR and embrace what they already have in place, HK would be much happier and less complicated.

[CP.AR]

I didn't believe that this was much of a problem in HK... thinking it might be about the same as what we have in Richmond and that the media is just blowing it up.
I was wrong

Now living in HK I realize that holy shit it's bad.

ps: give it another 5 years. Hong Kong will be an arm of Shenzhen

[twitchyzero]

The difference is forced erosion/displacement versus natural occurrence. Say, if a dear friend or family member passed away due to natural causes (old age, illness, whatever), you'd probably accept that reasonably well even though you miss him. Now suppose that same friend or family member is brutally killed, are you just going to swallow that without any kind of resentment? Or are you simply going to say, "instead of channelling all that frustration/anger, you are are just going to stress the importance of peacefully accepting the reality without doing anything"? At the language front, the sentiments are exactly the same.

but your example seems to be on the very extreme end and it hasn't gotten that bad, yet? For example when ROC fled to Taiwan and imposed martial law spanning almost 4 decades....nevermind all the torture and executions...they literally forced it upon you to speak/write Mandarin in school/media and banned the Taiwanese dielects. Seems like HK has it good beacuse of the basic law in place and it's something PRC wish to slowly integrate in.

Gov / business written Chinese is different from verbal vernacular especially Cantonese.. The actual pass rate for Chinese lit in their version of provincials is extremely low. That's different from the Chinese you find on Facebook. I think the pass rate is also quite low in China, because it is brutal. But don't worry they have a huge population so they can still generate a useful pool of prospects.

so it's not a grave literacy concern because they can still read/write...it's just they can't put together proper, grammatically correct/formal sentences. :derp:

[Tapioca]

Then hongers won't complain about mainlanders going to HK since they won't need to go to HK anymore.

The only problem is that HK would be left for dead, but as long as they have their excolonism pride, they can survive on that.

CBC here.

Why are you in Hong Kong then? It's pretty much going down the tubes.
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[Tapioca]

PRC should really stop this non-sense. If they really just consider HK as a SAR and embrace what they already have in place, HK would be much happier and less complicated.

Because they can. If Quebec were to seperate, it could potentially lead to the disintegration of Canada. Hong Kong is just a tiny spec. Also, I imagine there's some pride at stake too - colonial rule of HK was something that should have never happened and now China is going to run things its way.

It's a lousy situation for Hongers. I imagine that many will start to leave over the next decade and dust off their Canadian, British, Australian passports.
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[Traum]

The thing I don't understand is why is PRC forcing HK to take everything of it (becoming the same as mainland China)?

If HK people want to preserve their uniqueness in culture, custom and/or whatever the hell they want, why not just let it be? It's like the entire Anglophone Canadians are not forcing Francophone Canadian to join them. We just let them do whatever they want. Heck, we even adjust everything official related (public doc/sign, packaging, custom personnels... etc) to accommodate our fellow French Canadians.

PRC should really stop this non-sense. If they really just consider HK as a SAR and embrace what they already have in place, HK would be much happier and less complicated.
The points you make are spot on, and for the life of me, I don't understand why China sees a need to mainlandize Hong Kong. What is even more ironic is that Hong Kong is special precisely because it is unlike most Mainland cities, and (corrupt) officials and the wealthy are precisely taking advantage of that fact by securing a good chunk of their wealth in Hong Kong.

What I can say, though, is that forced assimilation has long been an established practice from the PRC government. It has long been happening in the north western Xinjiang where Uyghurs used to be the dominant ethnic group, and again in the south western Tibet and nearby regions where Tibetan cultures are being displaced. I don't even want to get into the Tibetan discussions because they are ugly and utterly disrespectful.

but your example seems to be on the very extreme end and it hasn't gotten that bad, yet? For example when ROC fled to Taiwan and imposed martial law spanning almost 4 decades....nevermind all the torture and executions...they literally forced it upon you to speak/write Mandarin in school/media and banned the Taiwanese dielects. Seems like HK has it good beacuse of the basic law in place and it's something PRC wish to slowly integrate in.
The murder example is a bit on the extreme end -- I was merely using that to drive the point home. Suffice to say that when stuff is being forced upon anyone against their will, backlash should not be a surprising consequence at all.

It's amusing how you mentioned ROC because we see precisely the same thing happening, except that it all happened a good 30 - 50 years ago, and the outcome is plainly obvious -- backlash was created in the form of the Green political camp. Fortunately for ROC, the ex-leader Chiang Jr. had enough wisdom, foresight, and forbearance in him to abolish the 1-party rule and introduce democracy to Taiwan. This is part of the reason why ROC is so far ahead of PRC in terms of being a civilized society. And going back to the language point that I made previously, this is why the Min Nan / Hokkien language/dialect is able to flourish in Taiwan.

[PeanutButter]

I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to the places the British colonized.. So were the British getting taxes from those in Hong Kong when it was under British rule?

And if the British told China they weren't going to give back Hong Kong, would there be a war?

[godwin]

The colonies served more like outposts.. think of them as resupply stations.

HK was the end of the supply chain.. before was singapore, burma and India.

British get taxes.

Well the last question is yes and no, legally they are obligated to give it back because it was turned into a lease.

I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to the places the British colonized.. So were the British getting taxes from those in Hong Kong when it was under British rule?

And if the British told China they weren't going to give back Hong Kong, would there be a war?

[SkinnyPupp]

Britain never leased from the PRC, and I don't think they technically had the obligation to "give it back". Also, Britain 'owned' HK island and Kowloon in perpetuity, it was only New Territories that was a lease.

Thatcher went to Beijing to negotiate the handover in the 1979, and Deng played major hardball with her. Remember in 1979 China was still very much a sheltered communist state. A complete mess, all the way through the 80's. Hell even in the early 2000's it was nothing like it is now. They absolutely needed Hong Kong, and there was NO way they were going to accept anything other than a complete handover.

The only power Britain had was to make sure they would agree to a two system policy, which worked fine from 1997 to about 2003 or so, it seems. I'm sure they were using that time to prepare, and from 2003 to now people are seeing those plans taking place. Even though the agreement is to change absolutely nothing until starting in 2047.

UK's other options were possibly to hand it over to ROC (Taiwan) remembering that both ROC and PRC claim they are "China" (which as you recall, I consider a confusing term and I prefer to just consider as a land mass). Obviously that would have been a political mess... The other option would be to keep HK and Kowloon as a colony.. but that would be just about as bad... and they would have no water... The third option I suppose would be to make it a city state... but again you have a ton of issues.

The "one country, two systems" policy was probably the best possible scenario, and part of it was to show Taiwan that hey, look it's not so bad! You should join us under the same policy!

But then China got really rich, and are pushing it way too far, too fast, and the whole thing is turning into a shit show. I'm not sure what the attitude is like in Taiwan, but if they were starting to consider joining PRC under a two system policy, this has to be scaring them off.

[threezero]

I have lived in hk as a mainlanders for quite a bit of time. I have to say hk is the most two faced hypocritical society I have ever encounter and be a part of.

Love the place but most of the people their think they are thinking independently but in reality they are all just sheep blindly following the latest trend.
Happening in all level and all ages, from kids hating on mainlanders because their brainwashed teacher told them to, to aunties that buys a Rolex every year because she saw an ad on TV.

Is mainlanders culturally different than honger? Yes. Is having violent protest and hate monte ring the proper way to solve this problem? No. Does mainlanders hating sells more newspaper and other forms of media. Hell yes.

To add to that honger will discriminate ppl base on an array of different characteristic, live in place like tsw? Look down on. You don't work in an office? Look down on. You don't have nice clothes? Look down on. You are still single at 30? You must be poor or retarded look down on. Fake lv? Look down on. Real lv from last year catalog? Look down on. East Indian? Look down on. Black? Better watch my wallet. Philippinos? Why ain't you cleaning my kitchen? Mainlanders? Hate you guys, but don't stop spending k!!!!

The only ethnicity that gets a pass on everything is ironically white people.

[SkinnyPupp]

To add to that honger will discriminate ppl base on an array of different characteristic, live in place like tsw? Look down on. You don't work in an office? Look down on. You don't have nice clothes? Look down on. You are still single at 30? You must be poor or retarded look down on. Fake lv? Look down on. Real lv from last year catalog? Look down on. East Indian? Look down on. Black? Better watch my wallet. Philippinos? Why ain't you cleaning my kitchen? Mainlanders? Hate you guys, but don't stop spending k!!!!
Go to any rich neighbourhood in any part of the world, and the exact same attitudes will exit. Generalizing an entire country or city like that is shitty.

[threezero]

Go to any rich neighbourhood in any part of the world, and the exact same attitudes will exit. Generalizing an entire country or city like that is shitty.

So generalizing mainlanders is ok? With statement like hk will turn into Shenzhen how is that not generalization?

The last time the Chinese people protest with this much passion against other fellow Chinese was during the "great cultural revolution" in Mao era.

All these protest and hate mail is 100% fuel by media and trend following mentality. If hongers are really so culturally superior than mainlanders is resulting to name calling the best way to show your civility and intelligence?

Just playing devil' advocate. I still love hk, if I had to live in any city in china, with no hesitation I would still pick hk

[SkinnyPupp]

Generalizing anyone isn't OK

Saying HK will turn into Shenzen is not an inherently negative generalization... For some people, maybe that's what they want. For others, they would hate it. The key is, it is being forced on people without consent, and against their own constitution.

The protests aren't 100% fueled by the media. The media is fueled by the people. If people didn't care about this stuff, they wouldn't buy into the media.

Hongers aren't culturally "superior" to mainlanders. They are culturally different. And like I said, name calling and being nasty, like those in the OP, are shitty people. And like I always say, there are shitty people everywhere, and good people everywhere. Shitty hongers, good hongers, shitty mainlanders, good mainlanders. The people in the OP are shitty, angry hongers.

And you say you would pick HK, and a lot of people think the same way. However if HK "turns into SZ" then people will think quite differently. Not because they are "superior" but because they are "different". Not everyone wants their culture and lifestyle to be taken over just because a communist government wants to do so. Not because they "hate mainlanders", but because they don't want that culture to take over their own.

[threezero]

I see where you are going. But the way I see it the only real way to preserve the hk culture completely to to have hk either go back to British rule or for it to be completely segregation from the rest of china. Both of which is never going to happen.

On the note of Shenzhen, it is actually my second choice only because it's been so heavily influence by the hk culture in the pass decade it is completely different than what I remember it 20+ years ago.

Perhaps the right way is to fnd a way for both to coexist instead of re enforcing the us vs them mentality. I guess what I want to for both side to rise above their difference and not having to take a "side" anymore.

[SkinnyPupp]

The thing is, this 'segregation' is written into Basic Law, and is supposed to be upheld until 2047. At that point, the PRC can begin to make changes, similar to the ones they are doing now.

I don't think people mind coexisting, after all the fact is that HK is an SAR of PRC. There's nothing that can be changed about that. However, these changes are not supposed to be happening. People are supposed to be able to vote for their executive. None of this is happening, and PRC is illegally influencing their lives. This is what causes the "us vs them" to worsen.

[HonestTea]

To add to that honger will discriminate ppl base on an array of different characteristic, live in place like tsw? Look down on. You don't work in an office? Look down on. You don't have nice clothes? Look down on. You are still single at 30? You must be poor or retarded look down on. Fake lv? Look down on. Real lv from last year catalog? Look down on. East Indian? Look down on. Black? Better watch my wallet. Philippinos? Why ain't you cleaning my kitchen? Mainlanders? Hate you guys, but don't stop spending k!!!!

The only ethnicity that gets a pass on everything is ironically white people.

QFT

They pretty much seem to hate on everything. It's just the way they are. It's probably ingrained in their culture that they always need to have the latest and most expensive things, just so they can have "face". The average HK girl will sacrifice pretty much everything just to be able to purchase the latest Chanel purse and show it off.

There's a saying that HK people would rather look down on someone being poor than someone being prostitute.

[SkinnyPupp]

There's a saying that HK people would rather look down on someone being poor than someone being prostitute.
Why would you look down on someone for being a prostitute? :seriously:

People I look down on are criminals, scam artists, pedophiles, etc... people who get paid to have sex? nope

[threezero]

I agree with skinny in that these type of mentality but I just feel it's something that is deeply ingrained in hk society and something that is openly encourage.

Just take a look at the ad they have on tv for legal loan sharking.
They basically go like is, broke down on your luck have no money? It's ok come borrow from us and you can buy your gf that diamond ring.
No house no car? No wonder your gf dump you, come borrow from us and she will love you again.

I'm not kidding the ads are serious right to the point like this.

I have frds in hk that laugh at my cheapo watches while they are rocking Rolex and Gucci shoes while they are struggle to pay rent. Does this happen in all society probably, but it seems to be a lot worse in hk. They are always trying to be something or someone they are not.

At least here in canada you are encourage to be who you want to be. In hk if you are anything but a suit in a office or other type of professionals ie doctors than you fail in life.

[SkinnyPupp]

Oh I agree there are definitely some things about the culture here that are kind of fucked up. Those ads are disgusting, and a lot of the marketing goes that way. Even worse are the ads for infant formula and junk food for kids, telling parents that it will turn their kids into a genius... And the education system is beyond fucked; I know for sure I would never raise children here.

If you have friends who laugh at you for your watch, etc, those people are fucking assholes. It doesn't matter where they are from. I have friends who are very well off and came from privileged upbringings, but they are nothing but humble and gracious. Very generous, without overtly looking for 'face'. These people could be dirt poor, and still be good people. That's who I want to hang out with, I don't care how rich or poor someone is, I just want to spend my time around kind, interesting people.

Really though, none of this has nothing to do with the issues in this thread :fuckthatshit: .

[Traum]

To threezero especially, I would like to remind you to go back a bit into history and consider the general Hong Konger's sentiments and mentality about the 1997 reunification and their impression of the PRC government at the time. 1997 was after the 1989 Tienanmen Massacre, so people are at least factually aware of what the PRC government is capable of and willing to do when things get ugly (in their eyes). And yet the general sentiments towards reunification and the PRC government is overwhelmingly positive. As a matter of fact, throughout those years between 1997 to as late as 2003-ish, past surveys have shown that Hong Kongers generally have a more favourable impression of the Mainland top brass than their own HKSAR CEO (aka mayor) at the time. Additionally, while Hong Kong people probably didn't think too highly of Mainlanders at the time, they most certainly do not hate them.

Try asking the same question again today, and you'll probably see a far more negative view for both the Chinese leaders and the HKSAR CEO. Survey the general public and the majority will probably dislike Mainlanders for the disruptions they have brought onto the Hong Kongers' daily lives. A portion of the population will be fervently pro-China, but these groups are likely new/new-ish immigrants that have recently moved down from the Mainland. Some of these work (and get paid) for their pro-Mainland stance much like a regular job. Others are benefactors through business ties and dealings or political favours.

Between these 10 - 15 years, something changed the attitudes of the majority of Hong Kong people, and it isn't really the media brainwashing people or even fueling that fire. As a matter of fact, I think it is more appropriate to say that the majority of Hong Kong's mainstream media are extremely hesitant to too heavily criticize the PRC government -- maybe except for Apple Daily. The mainstream media are certainly not afraid to chide the PRC government on little things, but overall, their reporting style, direction, and emphasis are more inline and on the side of the Establishment.

Regarding the protesters and demonstrators mentioned in the beginning of this thread, I agree that their means are crude and inappropriate, and most importantly, they were targeting the wrong crowd. At the same time, I completely understand the frustrations and anger that drove them into doing this, so I would definitely say I am sympathetic towards them.

[Qmx323]

So in other words main-landers are coming in with money to hong kong and people from hk are complaining because they have it better than everywhere else in china because of previous british rule. Well im sorry to tell you but they're all Chinese at the end of the day. Thats pretty much the same as when everyone in the summer goes to kelowna / that area from vancouver for vacation. Pretty retarded if you ask me ... this comment is what made me laugh = "I think the government should listen to our voice seriously. It has to stop allowing Chinese tourists into Hong Kong … We do not want them." What a bunch of pompous pricks. You're ALL Chinese, live with it.


THEMS FIGHTIN WORDS

[Manic!]

Why would you look down on someone for being a prostitute? :seriously:

People I look down on are criminals, scam artists, pedophiles, etc... people who get paid to have sex? nope

Is prostitution legal in HK?

[Traum]

Is prostitution legal in HK?
For direct 1-to-1 dealings with the sex trade worker, it is not illegal. Living off or otherwise benefiting from the sex trade, however, is illegal.

Increasingly, however, I would say that any businesses directly or indirectly supporting the sex trade could be targeted for arrest and prosecution should the police will it.

[Harvey Specter]

HONG KONG'S education department caused a furore last month by briefly posting on its website the claim that Cantonese was “not an official language” of Hong Kong. After an outcry, officials removed the text. But was the claim correct? The law says that “Chinese and English” are Hong Kong’s official languages. Whereas some people say that Cantonese is a dialect of Chinese, others insist that it is a language in its own right. Who is right—and how do dialects differ from languages in general?

Two kinds of criteria distinguish languages from dialects. The first are social and political: in this view, “languages” are typically prestigious, official and written, whereas “dialects” are mostly spoken, unofficial and looked down upon. In a famous formulation of this view, “a language is a dialect with an army and a navy”. Speakers of mere “dialects” often refer to their speech as “slang”, “patois” or the like. (The Mandarin Chinese term for Cantonese, Shanghaiese and others is fangyan, or “place-speech”.) Linguists have a different criterion: if two related kinds of speech are so close that speakers can have a conversation and understand each other, they are dialects of a single language. If comprehension is difficult to impossible, they are distinct languages. Of course, comprehensibility is not either-or, but a continuum—and it may even be asymmetrical. Nonetheless, mutual comprehensibility is the most objective basis for saying whether two kinds of speech are languages or dialects.

By the comprehensibility criterion, Cantonese is not a dialect of Chinese. Rather it is a language, as are Shanghaiese, Mandarin and other kinds of Chinese. Although the languages are obviously related, a Mandarin-speaker cannot understand Cantonese or Shanghaiese without having learned it as a foreign language (and vice-versa, though most Chinese do learn Mandarin today). Most Western linguists classify them as “Sinitic languages”, not “dialects of Chinese”. (Some languages in China, like Uighur, are not Sinitic at all.) Objective though it may be, this criterion can annoy nationalists—and not just in China. Danes and Norwegians can converse, making some linguists classify the two as dialects of a single language, though few Danes or Norwegians think of it this way.

In China the picture is further confused by the fact that one written form unifies Chinese-language speakers (though mainland Chinese write with a simplified version of the characters used in Hong Kong and Taiwan). But this written form is not a universal “Chinese”: it is based on Mandarin. The confusion arises because many people consider written language to be the “real” language, and speech its poor cousin. The same reasoning can be used to classify Arabic as a single language, though a Moroccan and a Syrian, say, cannot easily understand each other. Ethnologue, a reference guide to the world's languages, calls Chinese and Arabic "macrolanguages", noting both their shared literature and the mutual (spoken) unintelligibility of many local varieties, which it calls languages. For the most part, linguists consider spoken language primary: speech is universal, whereas only a fraction of the world’s 6,000-7,000 languages are written. This is behind the linguist’s common-sense definition: two people share a language if they can have a conversation without too much trouble.

The Economist explains: How a dialect differs from a language | The Economist (http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2014/02/economist-explains-8?fsrc=scn/fb/wl/bl/ee/tr/howadialectdiffersfromalanguage)
.

[SkinnyPupp]

That's part of the problem of the term "Chinese". It can mean so many things... Chinese is not a language, so Mandarin and Cantonese are not dialects. They are all languages that are spoken on the plot of land called China.

I do think that Cantonese people are very proud of their heritage, and I don't see the language dying any time soon. To this very day you can travel throughout Guangdong, and the locals will all speak some level Cantonese. And it's not just service people who cater to Hong Kong tourists.

[trd2343]

^Thing is, on paper Mandarin and Cantonese, uses the same words (albeit grammar and slangs may be slightly different). Mandarin and Cantonese is how you read or say it.

The thing with the word "Chinese" is it can describe both ethnicity and nationality. It's different for say "Canadian", because it literally refers to being a citizen of Canada, but it tells nothing about that person's ethnicity. And by ethnicity we're talking about similar cultural and genetic background. On the other hand, I myself have never heard a non-Chinese (Caucasian for eg.) who's living in China refer to themselves as Chinese. Likewise for other Asian countries, ie Filipino, particularly people from China who immigrated there and became a legal citizen is called Chinese Filipino or Filipino Chinese.

Bottom line is, the useage of the nationality word carries different meaning around the world. In the case of Chinese, it can mean both, nationality, and ethnicity. Yes, it can be argue that people in Hong Kong don't think they share the same nationality as people in China or PRC. But are they (people in Hong Kong) genetically different enough to be recognized as a different ethnic group from people in China?

When people in Hong Kong say "We are not Chinese", are they saying, We are not citizens of PRC/China, or are they saying, we are not Chinese, period, meaning we and they don't share any genetic similarities.

edit: To add to the article that was posted, sure you have people who come up with these definitions of what language or dialect is, but it doesn't help with the fact they look the same. To non-Asian, would you be able to tell the difference between words written by someone from China, and Hong Kong, (and Taiwan)?

[Ronin]

Ethnicity is different than nationality. I'm Chinese but the way I've always thought about it is...if China ever declared war on Canada, I'd fight for Canada, not China. I'm Canadian first, just like these folks feel like they're HKers, not Chinese.

[trd2343]

That's precisely what I'm trying to say. The word "Chinese" carries both nationality and ethnicity. I'm not saying they're the same, but can you separate the two within the word "Chinese" itself. Like you mentioned, you are Chinese by ethnicity, but nationality wise you're Canadian. But what do folks that go by the nationality of China call themselves? PRCers?

Again, ethnicity and nationality are different things, and I agree. But within the word "Chinese", its often use to describe both ethnicity and nationality. Just like Koreans. Or Japanese, the word can represent both nationality and ethnicity. It doesn't exist in Canada or US because they're collection of different ethnicity living together. But for some Asia countries, the nationality generally represents ethnicity as well.

Can you split those two things up, for Asia countries? What exactly are the HKers referring to when they say they are not Chinese?

[Traum]

^Thing is, on paper Mandarin and Cantonese, uses the same words (albeit grammar and slangs may be slightly different). Mandarin and Cantonese is how you read or say it.

edit: To add to the article that was posted, sure you have people who come up with these definitions of what language or dialect is, but it doesn't help with the fact they look the same. To non-Asian, would you be able to tell the difference between words written by someone from China, and Hong Kong, (and Taiwan)?
Major correction here -- ignoring the difference between traditional and simplified characters, Mandarin and Cantonese are still quite different in both spoken and written forms. They use the same base character sets, but the meanings, pronunciation, and grammar are different enough that without having learned the languages themselves, a Mandarin speaker/writer wouldn't really understand a Canontese speaker/writer and vice versa.

Consider this for a minute: In Canada, we all know what a toque is. But to the rest of the English speaking world, it is more generally referring to a chef's hat. We have pencil crayons, but Americans call it "colored pencils" while the British call it "colouring pencils". Canadians, Americans, and British all use "rubber" on a daily basis, but hey, I think using the Canadian/American "rubber" is a lot more fun than using British "rubber".

Now, the difference between Mandarin and Cantonese are significantly bigger than how Canadian English, 'Murican English, and British English are different. As the economist article has pointed out, socially, Mandarin and Cantonese operate as 2 related, but completely different languages.

Legally, it is even easier for Hong Kong to prove that Cantonese is the official language of the city. At the law courts, either of the two official languages -- Chinese or English -- may be used. And yet, overwhelmingly, the form of spoken Chinese that gets used is almost always Cantonese. When Mandarin is used, a translator is required. If this doesn't establish Cantonese as the official Chinese language of the city, I don't know what will.

The Hong Kong education department was just being a dumba$$ when it published that Cantonese was "just a dialect" and not an official language of the city. And this is why a lot of Hong Kongers look down upon the ministers and officials -- it is bad enough that they are selling themselves out to Beijing, but it is worse when they take active measures to sell the entire Hong Kong out only a appease their Beijing masters. They are doing anything but looking our for Hong Kong's interests.

Edit: In reply to your edit section question -- "To non-Asian, would you be able to tell the difference between words written by someone from China, and Hong Kong, (and Taiwan)?", to ask that question is no different than asking a non-English speaking / reading person to distinguish between English, French, German, and Spanish. They all basically use the same character set! But of course, we know they are different languages. And that's exactly the same thing when it comes to Mandarin and Cantonese -- they are different languages, even though they are related in many ways.

[trd2343]

Major correction here -- ignoring the difference between traditional and simplified characters, Mandarin and Cantonese are still quite different in both spoken and written forms. They use the same base character sets, but the meanings, pronunciation, and grammar are different enough that without having learned the languages themselves, a Mandarin speaker/writer wouldn't really understand a Canontese speaker/writer and vice versa.

Consider this for a minute: In Canada, we all know what a toque is. But to the rest of the English speaking world, it is more generally referring to a chef's hat. We have pencil crayons, but Americans call it "colored pencils" while the British call it "colouring pencils". Canadians, Americans, and British all use "rubber" on a daily basis, but hey, I think using the Canadian/American "rubber" is a lot more fun than using British "rubber".

Now, the difference between Mandarin and Cantonese are significantly bigger than how Canadian English, 'Murican English, and British English are different. As the economist article has pointed out, socially, Mandarin and Cantonese operate as 2 related, but completely different languages.

Legally, it is even easier for Hong Kong to prove that Cantonese is the official language of the city. At the law courts, either of the two official languages -- Chinese or English -- may be used. And yet, overwhelmingly, the form of spoken Chinese that gets used is almost always Cantonese. When Mandarin is used, a translator is required. If this doesn't establish Cantonese as the official Chinese language of the city, I don't know what will.

The Hong Kong education department was just being a dumba$$ when it published that Cantonese was "just a dialect" and not an official language of the city. And this is why a lot of Hong Kongers look down upon the ministers and officials -- it is bad enough that they are selling themselves out to Beijing, but it is worse when they take active measures to sell the entire Hong Kong out only a appease their Beijing masters. They are doing anything but looking our for Hong Kong's interests.

Edit: In reply to your edit section question -- "To non-Asian, would you be able to tell the difference between words written by someone from China, and Hong Kong, (and Taiwan)?", to ask that question is no different than asking a non-English speaking / reading person to distinguish between English, French, German, and Spanish. They all basically use the same character set! But of course, we know they are different languages. And that's exactly the same thing when it comes to Mandarin and Cantonese -- they are different languages, even though they are related in many ways.

To illustrate your point, can you provide example of these differences? I'm talking about written language, not spoken language, nor slangs (especially cantonese with the swear words and such). If you're talking about things like the pronoun, him, 他 vs 佢, and 他們 vs 佢哋，I can definitely tell you the latter is not consider official language, or it's not taught at school.

When you're talking about translator, are you referring to spoken, or written? Are you saying you need a written Mandarin translator vs a written Cantonese translator? I'm not sure if such thing exists.

I'm not sure if you're read speak Cantonese/Mandarin or not, but to say the differences between Cantonese and Mandarin is like English, French, German and Spanish is very ignorant.
edit: My apologies, I misread what you wrote, and I also used the wrong phrase. However, my point is for someone who knows Chinese to be able to tell whether it was written in Chinese/Cantonese/Mandarin/Taiwanese. If you can only read English, you can't read French. If you can read Cantonese, you can read Mandarin/Taiwanese/Chinese. That's a big difference. Hope that makes that part clear of what I was trying to say.

I came here when I was grade 3 and have studied as you would say HK Cantonese while I was here for a couple of years, and I have no problem reading literature written in Mandarin, as you would put it. (contemporary language). Of course I have some trouble reading simplified Chinese, but I can definitely guesstimate most of it. I can tell you I can't read Spanish nor German, not even guess and what it means.

[trd2343]

And to be honest, I have a neutral stance. I was born in HK, my parents were born in China, and I've lived here for 10+ years.

I have no right to judge the actions seeing how I don't even live there anymore, nor contribute anything to the city, nor even remotely understand or feel what they go through each day when a hoard of people from another place just comes storming in taking all the resources.

But what sickens me is the name calling and the insults, and the way the HKers treat these close strangers. I recall watching a video (can't find it anymore) where a bunch of HKers caught a Mainlander stealing on the MTR. Petty crime, just hand in to the police or something. Not what the HKers feel. They surrounded him at the MTR station, started calling him names and making very disgusting insults. It was as if HKers don't have thieves at all and only Mainlanders steal. If people didn't know what was happening before hand, it looked like the HKers were bullying the Mainlander. It's as if HKers treat the Mainlanders even worse than animals.

I have relatives who live in China and never been or rarely go to HK. But they don't poop all over the place all sneeze or blow their nose, or budge in line. They might be loud sometimes when they speak, but they are not trying to be rude, they just speak like that. I find it an insult when they generalize Mainlanders, because that means they're referring to my relatives like that too, calling them "locusts", and other ugly names of that sort.

And I just find HKers a bit hypocritical of this whole "I'm not a Chinese thing." If you're not Chinese, then what are you? HKers? What constitute a HKer? Someone born in HK? If that's the case, I can name a bunch of public celebrity (Ha Yu, Kara Hui, Leon Lai, Li Ka Shing, Michael Miu) that are not HKers by their defintions, because they were born in China. Are they one of you? Are you one of them? You just said you don't want any interactions with Chinese. If place of birth is not the deciding factor, then what is? HKid Card? So as long as you have a card, you're HKers not Chinese? All in all, I just find the HKers who are arguing about these aren't even sure what they are arguing about.

Blame the government. Not the people.

As for the pooping and all rude stuff. It's wrong. But not all Chinese, or Chinese in general behave like that. Mainlanders didn't just start flooding HK within the last couple years, they've been doing that for a long time. However, with China's economy booming as of late, you get a some people that were really really poor (possibly farmers) that suddenly get rich. It's not as if like, they don't poop on the streets in China, then when they come to HK, they decide to do it all of a sudden. I can also tell you that cities I've been to (zhuhai, shenzhen, boan, etc.) people don't poop in public. So very possible, these are people who actually come from very rural areas, places where it's actually normal to do that. Of course, you can't explain budging, I see that all the time.

[twitchyzero]

When people in Hong Kong say "We are not Chinese", are they saying, We are not citizens of PRC/China, or are they saying, we are not Chinese, period, meaning we and they don't share any genetic similarities.



I never understood this.

One can say "I'm from Hong Kong". Okay that makes sense.

But if you're a yellow-skinned with Han ancestry living in Hong Kong...you're Chinese by both definitions of ethnicity and nationality.

Han is a (major) subgroup that's indigenous in China (not sure if I used that term correctly..as in the first Han originated from China rather than Europe)...and Hong Kong as a SAR is a part of PRC...so how can someone in my example not identify themself as Chinese?

[Traum]

My examples were certainly referring more to spoken Cantonese vs Mandarin since in formal written form, there is generally no specific distinction between Cantonese and Mandarin. Written forms are generally just referred to as "Chinese" (中文). It should be noted though that Cantonese can be written out. Additionally, it should also be noted that generally, Hong Kong, Taiwanese, and Mainland Chinese (esp from different regions) all write somewhat differently, in terms of word choice, grammar, etc.

Take "where should we go out to eat today?" as an example. In written Chinese, it will probably be written in something along the following lines:

我們今天到那裡吃飯？

In Cantonese, it is: 我地今日去邊度食飯？
In Mandarin, it might look like: 咱們今天到那兒喫飯？

The key points of differences:
"we" is written as "我們" in Chinese, "我地" in Cantonese, and "咱們" in Mandarin. For a Mandarin speaker who is not learned in Cantonese, "我地" probably doesn't make sense because while both characters are standard, typical Chinese characters, "我" means "I", and "地" means ground. So what the heck does "I ground" mean? In Cantonese, "咱" is not a word, although "自" is, and it means "self".

Other differences include "today" -- 今天 (Chinese / Mandarin) vs 今日 (Cantonese), "where" -- 那裡 (Chinese), 邊度 (Cantonese), and 那兒 (Mandarin), and "eat" -- 吃飯 (Chinese), 食飯 (Cantonese), and 喫飯 (Mandarin).

Other examples exists -- like Chinese New Year (農曆新年 vs 春節), bus (巴士 vs 公交車 vs 公車), motorcycles (電單車 vs 摩托車/摩托 vs 機車 <-- more of a Taiwanese term), engine (引擎 vs 發動機), engine oil (偈油 vs 機油/潤滑油). There are also countless number of terms that are once widely used only in one language or the other, but have since been adopted and accepted by both sides due to cultural interaction and cross pollination -- 老公 (husband), 老婆 (wife), 品牌 (brand). Someone can probably come up with a lot more if they just think about it for a bit.

Lastly, we haven't even got to the bastardized form of written Chinese that the PRC government has introduced. I am not referring to the introduction of simplified characters -- I'm referring to the blatantly bad adoption of English directly-translated terms, such as 亮點、打造、優化、一次性交易, etc. These are Chinese invented by the PRC government, not proper terms or anything that came out of the literary world or common use. It is this form of Chinese that sickens me the most.

[trd2343]

My examples were certainly referring more to spoken Cantonese vs Mandarin since in formal written form, there is generally no specific distinction between Cantonese and Mandarin. Written forms are generally just referred to as "Chinese" (中文). It should be noted though that Cantonese can be written out.

So Cantonese should be a different language because the words are read differently?

Photoshopped or Googled can be written out as well, but it doesn't mean it's part of the language. You can write that to your friends, and you can definitely try writing that at a work place too, though I think results would not be good.

我地 doesn't make sense to a Mandarin speaker because it's not the proper language. It's not taught in HK school either. Just like "I photoshopped the picture." When has photoshop became a verb? You can write and say it, doesn't mean it's OK, or right.

那 always lead in to a question. 邊 was suppose to mean edge, side. Can you imagine teaching someone written Cantonese, 邊 means edge, 度 means degree or position etc., but put them together and it means where 邊度?

bus 巴士 is like dim sum (though I'm not sure if dim sum has become an official word).

Yes, China did bastardize some words. But on the other hand, some of those are just poor translations. Just like "fuck the beef fried noodle", does not literally mean you fuck the beef. 三明治 always crack me up because you read it in Mandarin and it sounds exactly like sandwich.

And switching to simplified Chinese was a horrible idea. Good in the sense that it's easier to write (really it is if you try writing words like turtle), but it does look ugly and takes away the elegance of Chinese words.

But again, I don't see anything in Cantonese that validates it as a separate language. Under what basis should Cantonese be consider a different language than Chinese?

[Traum]

But what sickens me is the name calling and the insults, and the way the HKers treat these close strangers. I recall watching a video (can't find it anymore) where a bunch of HKers caught a Mainlander stealing on the MTR. Petty crime, just hand in to the police or something. Not what the HKers feel. They surrounded him at the MTR station, started calling him names and making very disgusting insults. It was as if HKers don't have thieves at all and only Mainlanders steal. If people didn't know what was happening before hand, it looked like the HKers were bullying the Mainlander. It's as if HKers treat the Mainlanders even worse than animals.

...

And I just find HKers a bit hypocritical of this whole "I'm not a Chinese thing." If you're not Chinese, then what are you? HKers? What constitute a HKer? Someone born in HK? If that's the case, I can name a bunch of public celebrity (Ha Yu, Kara Hui, Leon Lai, Li Ka Shing, Michael Miu) that are not HKers by their defintions, because they were born in China. Are they one of you? Are you one of them? You just said you don't want any interactions with Chinese. If place of birth is not the deciding factor, then what is? HKid Card? So as long as you have a card, you're HKers not Chinese? All in all, I just find the HKers who are arguing about these aren't even sure what they are arguing about.

The name calling is unfortunate, but given the circumstances that Hong Kongers face, the reaction is hardly surprising at all. When your rights and well-being are continually getting eroded on a lot of different fronts, patience wear and temper flares. If you are a mom and you have to fight against an endless stream of Mainland Chinese expectant moms for a hospital bed, if you are a new parent that cannot find any baby formula to feed your newborn child, if you are a parent whose elementary school-aged kid has to take an hr public transit ride each way just to get to school because the spots at the school 10 min away is taken up by kids with Mainland parents, if you are a regular Joe that has to wait for 6 trains before boarding because of the Mainland tourists, if you are a middle class person that can't afford to buy yourself a flat (and in enough cases, the girl won't marry you unless you have a suite) because prices have all been driven up sky high by the influx of Mainland Chinese hot money, etc. etc. At its core, I agree it is entirely the HKSAR government's fault and failure, but as you continually put up with all of this injustice, all of which are seemingly triggered by the massive influx of Mainland Chinese persons, it is human nature to direct the negative emotions towards the more obviously visible group because the symptoms are far easier to see than the cause.

The "I am not Chinese" thing is of course not a legal declaration in any way. It is really a cultural and identity declaration more than anything else. Personally, the declaration isn't that different from how Taiwanese say they are Taiwanese, not Chinese. But very few people (other than those from the Mainland) will openly oppose against Taiwanese calling themselves Taiwanese instead of Chinese.

[trd2343]

The name calling is unfortunate, but given the circumstances that Hong Kongers face, the reaction is hardly surprising at all. When your rights and well-being are continually getting eroded on a lot of different fronts, patience wear and temper flares. If you are a mom and you have to fight against an endless stream of Mainland Chinese expectant moms for a hospital bed, if you are a new parent that cannot find any baby formula to feed your newborn child, if you are a parent whose elementary school-aged kid has to take an hr public transit ride each way just to get to school because the spots at the school 10 min away is taken up by kids with Mainland parents, if you are a regular Joe that has to wait for 6 trains before boarding because of the Mainland tourists, if you are a middle class person that can't afford to buy yourself a flat (and in enough cases, the girl won't marry you unless you have a suite) because prices have all been driven up sky high by the influx of Mainland Chinese hot money, etc. etc. At its core, I agree it is entirely the HKSAR government's fault and failure, but as you continually put up with all of this injustice, all of which are seemingly triggered by the massive influx of Mainland Chinese persons, it is human nature to direct the negative emotions towards the more obviously visible group because the symptoms are far easier to see than the cause.

The "I am not Chinese" thing is of course not a legal declaration in any way. It is really a cultural and identity declaration more than anything else. Personally, the declaration isn't that different from how Taiwanese say they are Taiwanese, not Chinese. But very few people (other than those from the Mainland) will openly oppose against Taiwanese calling themselves Taiwanese instead of Chinese.

I totally agree with that, and it does suck. But I'm not sure if another city/group of people would've handled it differently (a question?). I'm bias HK people in general are arrogrant, at least over Mainlanders. I know not all are, but in that's the general idea I feel from all the negative news (which I'm generalizing here again).

Of course, with HK government being so heavily controlled by PRC, who can the people in HK complain to right?

I think houses price have always been expensive regardless of Mainlanders.

I think (personal opinion) their declaration is more of a social status more than cultural identity. After all, China really has been considered a not well-developed country for a long time.

I think though, the whole "Chinese" thing has to do again with the fact that nationality represents ethnicity as well in many of the countries in Asia (China, Korea, Japn, Filipino, India etc.)

[Traum]

But again, I don't see anything in Cantonese that validates it as a separate language.
We would have to disagree on that point, but I would highly recommend you to try finding a Cantonese speaking person that doesn't know a trace of Mandarin and have him communicate with a Mandarin speaker who doesn't understand Cantonese, and see if they can converse in their respective language. No gestures, no body language, no expressions allowed. Just the spoken language and nothing else.

Additionally, I can also write you a passage in Cantonese and have you pass it to a non-Cantonese speaking Mandarin person, and see how much he can understand the written passage. I can provide that passage in either traditional or simplified characters, and the Mandarin person will probably understand bits and pieces of it. But he is not going to understand the passage in its entirety, and that is the whole point -- when the two sides can't understand each other, that makes them 2 different languages.

[trd2343]

Well I don't consider spoken Cantonese part of the written language. But I'm not a linguist, so who am I to say what is and what's not.

We are getting technical here. However, for your second point, it's unfair for the Mandarin person because the Cantonese person is not writing the learnt Chinese, or the Chinese that's taught in school.

If we have a HKer write a passage in the way Chinese was taught in HK school, I can guarantee you that the Mandarin speaking person would have no problem understanding it.

What HKer has done is taken Chinese, teach it at HK school, and created spoken slangs that only locals understand. I don't think that constitute that a different language.

What hasn't even been consider is if the Cantonese in HK is the same as the one in Guangdong.

Bottomline, if written properly, someone in HK would have no problem communicating with someone in China (putting spoken aside). If spoken was taken consideration, we probably would have a different language for all the dialect in China.

That is, UNLESS, school in HK start teaching stuff like 我地 and 邊度 into their literature, as in actually allowing these words to even make it public areas, like signs and such, THEN we may have a communication problem.

edit: I see where you're coming from after reading the Economist article, which I don't agree in entirety. As long as 2 people can share communicate without too much trouble, they share a language, which would not be the case for spoken Cantonese and Mandarin. That's because spoken is the primary aspect of language, according to that article. It makes you think, if that's the case, whose structure are we basing our language on, is written based on spoken, or spoken based on written?

If HK truly believes Cantonese as an official language, have they pushed for a reform of the teaching system, so children will learn words like 我地 and 邊度 in school and texts, instead of picking it from speaking?

[Ronin]

People from Hong Kong tell you they're from Hong Kong. They don't identify or care about China just like I don't identify or care about China. I get it. Saying people from China and people from Hong Kong are all just Chinese is incredibly stupid.

[SkinnyPupp]

Ethnicity is different than nationality. I'm Chinese but the way I've always thought about it is...if China ever declared war on Canada, I'd fight for Canada, not China. I'm Canadian first, just like these folks feel like they're HKers, not Chinese.
You're not really "Chinese" though, since it's technically not an ethnicity either (it is just used for simplicity to describe MOST of the ethnicities in China). I guess you're most likely Han, since they make up 91% of the population.

[twdm]

I'm not sure if you're read speak Cantonese/Mandarin or not, but to say the differences between Cantonese and Mandarin is like English, French, German and Spanish is very ignorant.
edit: My apologies, I misread what you wrote, and I also used the wrong phrase. However, my point is for someone who knows Chinese to be able to tell whether it was written in Chinese/Cantonese/Mandarin/Taiwanese. If you can only read English, you can't read French. If you can read Cantonese, you can read Mandarin/Taiwanese/Chinese. That's a big difference. Hope that makes that part clear of what I was trying to say.


I beg to differ. I can't even count the number of words that are identical if not very similar in English and French. It's like saying all the languages that uses arabic characters are just dialects of each other because you can sometimes figure out what they're saying in the other language.

Coming from learning french in school, I can't tell you how many times I tried to look for words that looked like english to figure out what they were saying in french.

[Traum]

Regarding Cantonese vs Mandarin vs Chinese as languages, I think it would be best to consider the spoken and written parts separately. For one thing, languages do not necessarily need to have both a spoken component and a written component to be consider a language. In all cases, languages always evolve out of the spoken form first. The written part comes after. And lots and lots of languages in this world don't even have a written aspect to it at all, and yet they are still consider languages.

As far as official language status is concerned, remember that Hong Kong is a common law jurisdiction, while Mainland China operates based on the civil law system. As it stands, the HK Basic Law only ambiguously indicates that "Chinese and English" are the city's official language. But with a near exclusivity of Chinese verbal correspondence being conducted in Cantonese throughout the city's courts, including their use by judges, that pretty much establishes the requirements needed in a common law system to recognize Cantonese as the official (spoken) language in the city. More importantly, with 97% of the population using the language on a daily basis, it would be stupid to not use or consider that as the official (spoken) language. If it weren't for the government idiots down playing the importance and status of Cantonese and brushing it off as a "mere dialect" instead of the official language in attempt to appease their Beijing masters, the discussion wouldn't even have surfaced and caused so much uproar in the first place.

But mark my words on this Cantonese vs Mandarin conflict -- this is going to continue as a central point of conflict in Hong Kong's near and medium term future. The stupid HKSAR government, in their typical and obvious fashion to bend over backwards and cater to what they their Beijing masters might like, are pushing to adopt Mandarin as the language of instruction in the school system's Chinese classes, hiding under the obviously false pretence that the calibre of Chinese literature will improve if Mandarin is used instead of Cantonese. If that were to get pushed through, the natural follow through would be to adopt Mandarin in all other non-Chinese subjects, and then you would essentially have what Shanghai and Guangzhou have already experience -- the next generation of children being unable to speak what was once the regional dominant language. I don't even know what point there is in arguing how that would not happen since there are already 2 well known samples staring right at Hong Kong's face.

[El Bastardo]

Jesus guys. The solution is simple. Just make Mainland China a British colony for a hundred years. That'll get the whole situation sorted out.

[Gululu]

THE COMMUNIST PARTY OF CHINA IS WITH YOU ALONG THE WAY - YouTube

THE COMMUNIST PARTY OF CHINA IS WITH YOU ALONG THE WAY