[Gumby]

I want to know about the hidden agendas in this dispute.............
Thanked you for this post too because I couldn't thank your previous post more than once.

[MG1]

The Cost of Class Size and Composition | Ashley D. Mackenzie (http://ashleydmackenzie.com/the-cost-of-class-size-and-composition/)

On my phone or I'd copy and paste, but it's a good restatement of something I think I brought up awhile ago.

Maybe it's too biased. DNR. Hee hee.

[vitaminG]

before anyone says that teachers put in all this extra time marking, helping after school etc. you have to consider that their salary already takes this into consideration.

school day including the mandatory 15 mins before/after is 6.5 hours a day * 186 school days = 1209 hours @ 70k a year = $58/hour not including very generous benefits.

even if every teacher spends an extra 3 hours a day with marking (and i sincerely doubt many teachers do) theyre still at $40/hour.

so its really hard for me to have sympathy for a teacher who complains about all the extra shit they do after school

[tiger_handheld]

^^^ I agree. You all don't know what teachers have to go through and put up with. My gf is a teacher and the amount of extra work they have to put in (without pay) is staggering. All you people ragging on teachers need to STFU until you have experienced it.

How many years has your gf been teaching?

[supafamous]

before anyone says that teachers put in all this extra time marking, helping after school etc. you have to consider that their salary already takes this into consideration.

school day including the mandatory 15 mins before/after is 6.5 hours a day * 186 school days = 1209 hours @ 70k a year = $58/hour not including very generous benefits.

even if every teacher spends an extra 3 hours a day with marking (and i sincerely doubt many teachers do) theyre still at $40/hour.

so its really hard for me to have sympathy for a teacher who complains about all the extra shit they do after school

I think there's a fair bit of conflicting information as to what teachers' make but $70K is almost certainly an exaggeration:

Wage Comparison: how B.C. teachers compare to others in Canada | Globalnews.ca (http://globalnews.ca/news/1346218/wage-comparison-how-b-c-teachers-salaries-rank-across-canada/) - Average of $49K

BC Teachers' Salary Grid, BC Teacher Salaries | BCPSEA (http://www.bcpsea.bc.ca/bc-teachers/collective-agreements/teacher-salary-grids.aspx) - Vancouver salary range in 2006 of $39-70K

Battle of numbers: How much does an average teacher make? - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/battle-of-numbers-how-much-does-an-average-teacher-make/article17309702/) - $70K

Teaching Jobs in Canada - powered by Education Canada Network (http://resource.educationcanada.com/salaries.html/) - $37-70K

BC teachers at low end of average salary scale, according to Stats Canada figures | (CKNW AM) AM980 (http://www.cknw.com/2014/05/21/bc-teachers-at-low-end-of-salary-scale-according-to-stats-canada/) - Stats can says the range is $42-64

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/81-604-x/2012001/tbl/tbld2.1-eng.htm (The source for the above link).

I'm going to trust source #2 since that's the data from the actual collective bargaining agreement.

A salary range of $39-70K plus pension for an university educated individual is pretty reasonable if it's a 9-5 job. For a teacher it strikes me as pretty low - $39K to start as a teacher? That's ok for straight out of school but not particularly good. $70K at the top end? Yipes, that's just awful. The pension is the trade off - they get a tonne of security in exchange for a lower top end but that's still low. I would have expected a teacher with 20 years experience (and possibly a Master's degree) would be in the 85-90K range. (Note that Alberta pays it's teachers more than $20K more at the top end - crazy).

[vitaminG]

I think there's a fair bit of conflicting information as to what teachers' make but $70K is almost certainly an exaggeration:

Wage Comparison: how B.C. teachers compare to others in Canada | Globalnews.ca (http://globalnews.ca/news/1346218/wage-comparison-how-b-c-teachers-salaries-rank-across-canada/) - Average of $49K

BC Teachers' Salary Grid, BC Teacher Salaries | BCPSEA (http://www.bcpsea.bc.ca/bc-teachers/collective-agreements/teacher-salary-grids.aspx) - Vancouver salary range in 2006 of $39-70K

Battle of numbers: How much does an average teacher make? - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/battle-of-numbers-how-much-does-an-average-teacher-make/article17309702/) - $70K

Teaching Jobs in Canada - powered by Education Canada Network (http://resource.educationcanada.com/salaries.html/) - $37-70K

BC teachers at low end of average salary scale, according to Stats Canada figures | (CKNW AM) AM980 (http://www.cknw.com/2014/05/21/bc-teachers-at-low-end-of-salary-scale-according-to-stats-canada/) - Stats can says the range is $42-64

I'm going to trust source #2 since that's the data from the actual collective bargaining agreement.

A salary range of $39-70K plus pension for an university educated individual is eminently reasonable for a 9-5 job. For a teacher it strikes me as pretty low - $39K to start as a teacher? That's ok for straight out of school but not particularly good. $70K at the top end? Yipes, that's just awful. The pension is the trade off - they get a tonne of security in exchange for a lower top end but that's still low.

your own link #2 has $42 - 80k for 2010, im sure its higher by now. 40k straight out of school for 1209 hrs is $33/hr seems pretty fucking good for someone with an undergrad + 1 year.

[Tapioca]

your own link #2 has $42 - 80k for 2010, im sure its higher by now. 40k straight out of school for 1209 hrs is $33/hr seems pretty fucking good for someone with an undergrad + 1 year.

Well, the salary scale is pretty typical of other jobs in the public sector: people with little experience and low skill get paid above-market, while those who have more experience and higher skills are paid at market salaries, or slightly below.

I mean, what do people want to pay teachers? 40K per year with no benefits? Of course, people will then ask about tying pay to performance. By what metrics? Standardized tests? (which don't really measure much anyway) In my view, you can't really have a discussion about salary until there's a general consensus on what the education system should produce. Do we want a vocation-based education system where kids are put into streams early? (it certainly makes sense if we're going to ride the resource-extraction horse until it dies, or the world explodes) Or, do we want to produce workers for the knowledge economy? (whatever that means?)

You have people in this thread complaining that the government should support public education, yet complain about salaries. In the end, you always get what you pay for. If you want a public education system, then you have to deal with all of the stuff that comes with it such as a public sector union, etc. If people's concerns are about costs, then privatize the system and let the chips fall where they may. Who cares right? As long as I got mine...

On the other hand, every time people bring up salary, it makes me wonder why they didn't hit the buffet line/pig trough to become teachers themselves?

[multicartual]

Who cares right? As long as I got mine...


In full agreement

[Timpo]

why are you guys talking about teachers' wages?

I thought the main reason for this strike was class size ratio and support worker for kids with disabilities?

[multicartual]

Don't reproduce unless you can afford private school away from the unwashed masses

[snowball]

your own link #2 has $42 - 80k for 2010, im sure its higher by now. 40k straight out of school for 1209 hrs is $33/hr seems pretty fucking good for someone with an undergrad + 1 year.

It's not higher, salary from 2010 are still the same as today which is why wages have been one of the things on the table this past negotiation period.

[MG1]

why are you guys talking about teachers' wages?


I guess it's human nature to be jealous. Our society is obsessed with how much others make. I'm not sure if this is a Lower Mainland thing, a BC thing, a Canadian thing, or a North American thing. Are other places like Japan, China, UK obsessed with salaries like we are?

Does it hurt that you only make 14 dolla an hour? Like mentioned so many times, if you want to make that much money, go get that job instead of whining about how much this or that person makes. If I find out so and so on RS makes way more than me for doing what kind of work they do. I'd be like, more power to them. As long as you don't make that money on the backs of others, I don't give a flying toaster.

People are too butthurt and have nothing better to do these days. Are people that pathetic that they have to attack others to make themselves feel better? Are they that angry with their own existence and situation that they have to focus in on others? Their self worth measured by how much they make? Shallow is what I call it.

We have people who worry about what's going to be on the dinner table tomorrow........... do you think they are worried about what car they are going to buy next month or which shoe they are going to wear tomorrow to work, or whine about how seasons tickets to the Canucks have gone up?

You know what pisses me off the most? Kids who drive exotic cars their moms bought them....... NOT! I don't care. At the end of the day, I'm good with who I am. I live an honest life (for the most part) and don't rely on others or take advantage of others. I try to make a difference. To me, there are a lot of things that are more important than getting my knickers in a knot over what others have or make.

/sermon

[4444]

I guess it's human nature to be jealous. Our society is obsessed with how much others make. I'm not sure if this is a Lower Mainland thing, a BC thing, a Canadian thing, or a North American thing. Are other places like Japan, China, UK obsessed with salaries like we are?


depends on teh group, but in vancouver, in my field EVERYONE told everyone how much they were making.

now i've moved back to Europe, i'm in peace, no one telling me their pay raise, salary, bonus. it's so refreashing, i can actually live my life, interact with ppl, not talk about their money... their money which doens't concern me, only mine concerns me!

as for teachers, fuck high 30's out of uni, that's good. As a CA articling student, i worked 10 hr days for 2 years straight whilst doing school work in evening/weekends at $35K a year before an type of decent pay raise (and even then it wasn't great and the hours still sucked) - but i did it for a reason, just as teachers go into teaching for a reason. if it's money, and constant pay raises, they did it for the wrong reason.

[Lomac]

BC Teachers' Salary Grid, BC Teacher Salaries | BCPSEA (http://www.bcpsea.bc.ca/bc-teachers/collective-agreements/teacher-salary-grids.aspx)

Couple years out of date but instead of relying on the awesome thoroughness of news reports, there's the teacher payscale for all the different school districts in BC.

[7seven]

why are you guys talking about teachers' wages?

I thought the main reason for this strike was class size ratio and support worker for kids with disabilities?

Because salaries and benefits are one of the major sticking points in the strike negotiations, the BCTF has not taken the demand for the $5,000 signing bonus, raise nor the increased benefits package off the table and the government will not negotiate on the items regarding class composition and support until the signing bonus and benefits package is off the table or at least greatly reduced.

So tired of hearing that teachers have not had a raise since XXXX, that's bs as they get pay increases as they work their way through each step and level. Personally I don't even think they should even get a signing bonus let alone anything close to $5,000 or anything similar to the nurses did, as I've said before, the supply of qualified nurses is at a greater shortage and the need is greater. Enrollment figures in schools keep dropping yearly and there is just an over supply of teachers out there, now part of the problem is that too many underperforming teachers or ones who should have been retired already are still hanging around, but that is a union own created problem.

While the teachers make a decent wage/pension/benefits, I don't really think they are highly paid, but personally I look at it more as a supply and demand of the occupations workforce, current economic environment and the ridiculousness of the BCTF that has me falling on the side of Fassbender and the Government on this. I would have no issues giving nurses, peace officers, firefighters or paramedics increased benefits and salaries, but for teachers I personally don't agree. What I would like to see however is more spending into education support and infrastructure rather than to the teachers salaries and benefits.

[4444]

i just want to bring up an old point.

education, in my eyes, is done more at home than in school. I've had good teachers, i've had terrible teachers, but my parents always made sure we got the best grades by trying our hardest and doing all our homework.

it's not tough, if a kid is falling behind, don't blame the teacher, they're not a variable here, but the parents can and should be assisting to ensure the child is understanding and learning.

the problem with this is that most parents these days are idiots, so i fear their ability to help into gr 10/11/12 is limited due to their lack of common sense.

i honestly don't know how i feel when looking at the salary ranges. i know i couldn't live on the highest one, but then again, i work a lot harder and smarter than a secondary school teacher does (that's not a point of contention, yes the work is different, but the market dictates my worth, as it does the teacher's through their union negotiations) - don't get me wrong, i'd be fired from teaching very quickly (i have taught at UBC for a while, and i was FUCKING MEAN to the kids on their cell phones, but high school kids, i think i'd end up doing something i'd later have to regret).

anyway, as said, teachers mean only so much, as textbooks and parents should take the brunt of any failure of the children. Teachers are a government provided service, as such, it'll also kinda suck.

As multi says, go private if you want your kids to have a greater chance of getting ahead (ppl will say it doesn't matter, well, sadly, it does, i have a family member that went to eaton or whatever it was in the UK, no university, boom, makes fuck loads bc of the ppl who knew through his classmates - guy is a tool, too, but a tool that is richer than i'll ever be)

[melloman]

Because salaries and benefits are one of the major sticking points in the strike negotiations, the BCTF has not taken the demand for the $5,000 signing bonus, raise nor the increased benefits package off the table and the government will not negotiate on the items regarding class composition and support until the signing bonus and benefits package is off the table or at least greatly reduced.

So tired of hearing that teachers have not had a raise since XXXX, that's bs as they get pay increases as they work their way through each step and level. Personally I don't even think they should even get a signing bonus let alone anything close to $5,000 or anything similar to the nurses did, as I've said before, the supply of qualified nurses is at a greater shortage and the need is greater. Enrollment figures in schools keep dropping yearly and there is just an over supply of teachers out there, now part of the problem is that too many underperforming teachers or ones who should have been retired already are still hanging around, but that is a union own created problem.

While the teachers make a decent wage/pension/benefits, I don't really think they are highly paid, but personally I look at it more as a supply and demand of the occupations workforce, current economic environment and the ridiculousness of the BCTF that has me falling on the side of Fassbender and the Government on this. I would have no issues giving nurses, peace officers, firefighters or paramedics increased benefits and salaries, but for teachers I personally don't agree. What I would like to see however is more spending into education support and infrastructure rather than to the teachers salaries and benefits.

Please give this man a cookie.

I'm sure there is more the government and BCTF will squabble about yet the bolded points above are why I am strongly against the teachers. This is why salaries keep being brought up, this whole strike wouldn't fucking exist if it was just about "class composition and special needs support."

[parm104]

i just want to bring up an old point.

education, in my eyes, is done more at home than in school. I've had good teachers, i've had terrible teachers, but my parents always made sure we got the best grades by trying our hardest and doing all our homework.



BINGO! Those who want to learn will do so no matter what. Parental support will ensure that the child is keeping up or staying ahead with their classwork. Those who are going to school to clown around are going to clown regardless of their teachers.

[Hondaracer]

Regarding that class composition + wage oncrease, back when this whole thing started global went to 4 different picket lines and interviewed a bunch of teachers, they were asked would you be fine going forward without a pay increase of any kind if other matters were addressed. Obviously they all have to tow the party line but not one teacher said yes or even did it in a round about way.

[GLOW]

Please give this man a cookie.

I'm sure there is more the government and BCTF will squabble about yet the bolded points above are why I am strongly against the teachers. This is why salaries keep being brought up, this whole strike wouldn't fucking exist if it was just about "class composition and special needs support."

IF YOU THINK IT'S SO GREAT WHY DON'T YOU BECOME A TEACHER!!!???~~111








:troll:

[supafamous]

Clark facing crisis after NDP revelations about talks with teachers - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/clark-facing-crisis-after-ndp-revelations-about-talks-with-teachers/article16845904/)

The documents focus on testimony given in court by the government’s chief negotiator in contract talks with the BCTF – Paul Straszak. In that testimony, Mr. Straszak talks about the tools the government had at its disposal to “increase the pressure on the [BCTF] to escalate the strike.”

Mr. Straszak is asked on the stand: “So your objective as government was to increase the pressure on the teachers to have them go out on a full-scale strike? Is that correct?”

His answer: “We – yes. I’ll say that’s correct.” As bad, Mr. Straszak says he briefed the Premier’s deputy, John Dyble, on the strategy ahead of a meeting with the provincial cabinet. Mr. Straszak also talked about the tools that were available to apply that strike pressure, such as cancelling teacher leaves and restricting funding to school districts.

I'm a lifelong Liberal voter and have spent my whole life being more anti-union than pro-union but the way Christy Clark goes about governing is disgusting. (I happen to like Gordon Campbell - he wasn't perfect but he was a decent man trying to make BC better).

[6o4__boi]

My view of this whole fiasco has gone from one end to the other since it began.

To be honest, now I don't even really give a shit about what either side has to say

I want them both to have a nice big cup of shut the fuck up and just get your shit together and get something done.

This whole back and forth in the media/social media is annoying and immature as fuck.

[Xplicit_EL]

Clark facing crisis after NDP revelations about talks with teachers - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/clark-facing-crisis-after-ndp-revelations-about-talks-with-teachers/article16845904/)



I'm a lifelong Liberal voter and have spent my whole life being more anti-union than pro-union but the way Christy Clark goes about governing is disgusting. (I happen to like Gordon Campbell - he wasn't perfect but he was a decent man trying to make BC better).

I really dislike crusty Clark. How does she even get to be our premier. I believe she does not even have a degree.

[Xplicit_EL]

Also, she purposely knows how to fuck over teachers because her dad was a teacher growing up. Soo sick of her shit.

[adambomb]

I really dislike crusty Clark. How does she even get to be our premier. I believe she does not even have a degree.

Her party was voted in. Did you not remember the election that the NDP gave away? :suspicious: Did the teachers forget to show up and vote for their party that day?


Here we are today, Liberals in power. :thumbsup:

[Great68]

I'm a lifelong Liberal voter and have spent my whole life being more anti-union than pro-union but the way Christy Clark goes about governing is disgusting. (I happen to like Gordon Campbell - he wasn't perfect but he was a decent man trying to make BC better).

As much as I hated Gordon Campbell, I'll respect that he stood up for what he believed would make BC better (whether I agreed with him or not) regardless of how it would affect his popularity.

Christy Clark seems like she'll just flip flop on anything that will make her popularity take a hit, or do anything she can to gain popularity regardless of the benefit to BC. ie: the whole HST debacle.

[Xplicit_EL]

Her party was voted in. Did you not remember the election that the NDP gave away? :suspicious: Did the teachers forget to show up and vote for their party that day?


Here we are today, Liberals in power. :thumbsup:


I was referring to how someone with no experience and no credentials was ever allowed to get the top spot in our province. I am pretty sure most teachers voted NDP from what I hear. It was the rest of the population that gave there vote to an incompetent leader.

[6o4__boi]

lmao...chrusty crap is getting her ass handed to her in this press con

fassbender looks like that dumbass employee that no one takes seriously and has to have his supervisor convince his bosses that he's doing a good job

[Hondaracer]

I was referring to how someone with no experience and no credentials was ever allowed to get the top spot in our province. I am pretty sure most teachers voted NDP from what I hear. It was the rest of the population that gave there vote to an incompetent leader.

"The rest of the population"

Yea..like -All- private business.. Remember last NDP rule?

[6o4__boi]

http://www.elections.bc.ca/docs/rpt/2013-General-Election-Report.pdf


there was a 55% voter turnout last election which is a pretty shitty turnout.
if there ever was anyone to blame for any stupid policy or any liberal quirk you don't like...it's the other 45% that didn't show up


which kinda grinds my gears...if you didn't vote and now you're complaining about how things are, shut the fuck up, you're partly to blame. It's not that hard to vote, takes little time and they present you with multiple opportunities. The only real reason most people couldn't vote was because they were too goddamn lazy.

[MG1]

Christy did not get voted in. She lost her riding. Someone had to give up their seat. Once someone is sworn in they can do whatever they want and collect that great pension. It doesn't matter who is in power, politicians are all the same. To get to that level you have to kiss a lot of ass. You cannot become successful unless you make deals to get the votes and the money to fund the campaigns. There aren't enough Chuck Cadmans in this world.

Do you vote for the party or the candidate in your riding?

I didn't think Christy was that bad. It's like getting married and then finding out a year or two later you've made the wrong decision.

[stewie]

I was referring to how someone with no experience and no credentials was ever allowed to get the top spot in our province. I am pretty sure most teachers voted NDP from what I hear. It was the rest of the population that gave there vote to an incompetent leader.

foreman showed me this today.

http://www.change.org/p/the-concerned-citizens-of-british-columbia-ask-for-the-resignation-of-premier-christy-clark

i could only wish she would resign...a monkey waving a banana can do a better job than she can.

[supafamous]

A pretty balanced summary of what's at stake for both sides.

Vaughn Palmer: Entrenched positions promise to prolong teachers? strike (http://www.vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/Vaughn+Palmer+Entrenched+positions+promise+prolong/10172411/story.html)

VICTORIA — For Day 2 of the school year, Premier Christy Clark and teachers’ union president Jim Iker provided a lesson in why contract negotiations are rarely helped and often hurt by attempts to bargain in public.

Clark started it off with a midday media conference, her response to multiple calls of the “Where’s the premier?” variety after the weekend collapse of talks between the B.C. Teachers’ Federation and the government negotiator.

She began by repeating earlier government calls for teachers “to suspend their strike while we get kids back into the classroom while we bargain.”

A welcome theme for the public and perhaps for some teachers as well, given the lack of strike pay in a dispute that has already gone on longer than expected.

Then the message to the union on the government’s preferred order of negotiation on the remaining outstanding issues:

“We want to be talking about classroom composition at the table. That is the single most important issue for me as premier,” said Clark. “The only way we can start doing that is if the teachers’ union can get into a reasonable zone, a reasonable settlement so we can put these wage issues aside.”

Reasonable in her definition being a settlement in the same range as those already accepted by some 150,000 other workers in the provincial public sector.

“They (union negotiators) need to come to the table with a proposal that looks a lot more like the raises that everybody else got, it includes a fairer raise.” Clark continued. “Once we’ve done that then we can talk about the single most important issue to me, and that’s making sure we address issues of class composition, but that’s the order in which these things need to happen.”

So the two sides should settle wages and benefits first, then the Liberals are prepared to discuss more money to address the broad range of issues regarding class size, composition and more resources for students with special needs.

She also underscored the importance of avoiding provocations at this late stage in the negotiations: “It’s most important for the leadership at the teachers’ union and in government to set aside the emotion that’s involved and set aside getting tripped up on things that are outside of the core issues.”

But she promptly disregarded her own advice by taking some partisan shots at teachers, as when she accused them of seeking a provision in their contract for “unlimited massages.”

Iker corrected the record in a follow up press conference, noting that the proposal was limited to $3,000 worth of massages a year and then only for teachers with sufficient medical need as determined by a physician. He further maintained that the union had signalled a willingness to withdraw that provision on the weekend.

In a similar vein, the government challenged Iker’s claim that teachers are locked out, maintaining that the lockout has been lifted. The union fired back that it has not received official notification of the lifting, which was also the government comeback on the union’s reputed change of position on massages.

Such exchanges provide a depressing reminder to parents, students and the public alike of the degree to which the two sides remain publicly consumed by their own entrenched positions and the minutiae of the dispute.

Iker acknowledged concerns about bargaining publicly toward the end of his news conference. “Maybe we are in the media too much. Maybe we should be bargaining rather than being out here.”

But there he was and so was Clark. Which is not to say that this dispute could be settled even if the two sides could suppress the bitterness, get back to the table, and focus on fundamentals.

Indeed, Iker identified what has emerged as “the biggest obstacle to settlement” — namely, the respective positions on the long-running legal battle over contract provisions that give the union a substantial say over class size and composition.

The government has twice legislated those out of existence, believing they give the union too much power over the management of the education system. The union has twice persuaded a B.C. Supreme Court judge to put them back on grounds that the government violated teachers’ right to a fair process of collective bargaining.

But in restoring the provisions, the court acknowledged that they were not “clad in stone” and could be subject to future collective bargaining.

Seizing on that passage, the Liberals have been trying to negate the disputed provisions in the current round of bargaining, not wanting to be saddled with the costs and restrictions through the next contract. Not surprisingly, the union takes the position that it is not prepared to surrender at the bargaining table what it twice won in court.

Adding to the complications, the Liberals have taken the case to the Court of Appeal, raising the possibility that the negotiations could produce one outcome on the disputed contract language, the courts another.

“We’ll stand pat in negotiations and take our chances in court,” says the union.

“We can’t afford the risk,” say the Liberals.

It is not easy to conceive of a middle ground between those two irreconcilables.

Yet another reason why this dispute is likely to fester onward until a public outcry necessitates another legislated settlement, probably later this month, maybe in early October.

[4444]

http://www.elections.bc.ca/docs/rpt/2013-General-Election-Report.pdf


there was a 55% voter turnout last election which is a pretty shitty turnout.
if there ever was anyone to blame for any stupid policy or any liberal quirk you don't like...it's the other 45% that didn't show up


which kinda grinds my gears...if you didn't vote and now you're complaining about how things are, shut the fuck up, you're partly to blame. It's not that hard to vote, takes little time and they present you with multiple opportunities. The only real reason most people couldn't vote was because they were too goddamn lazy.

To counter that point, what if those 45% were just about the same make up as the 55%? Statistically it could make sense, in which case 100% vote results would match that of the representative sample... Is the 55% a representative sample?

I personally didn't vote last time, as I had no one that I wanted to vote for.

If they had a "non of the above" box which would require all party leaders to resign and start over with new ones, if it got majority vote, then I'd have voted for that.

Liberal or ndp... Not exactly a good option

[6o4__boi]

That's a pretty big what if, and we're never really gonna find out the answer to that one are we? So no point dwelling on that and building an argument over something hypothetical.

particularly because last election the so-called polling experts had the NDP to win by a wide margin only to find out that NDP voters are willing to answer polling questions but they're just too fucking lazy to actually take those answers to the ballot box

what do you mean you had no one to vote for? You do realize there are options outside of the traditional NDP and Liberal right? I'm not gonna get into how voting for other parties can affect election dynamics. But saying there's no one to vote for and wishing there was another system in place, that's just wishful thinking. Maybe in a place where rainbows and butterflies are the norm and where the cookie monster isn't addicted to cookies like a heroin addict is to heroin we'd have an option like that.

But we don't, we have this system in place. It's not perfect, quite far from it but it is what it is. If the liberals learned anything last season it's that they only have to target those who are most likely to vote.

As a democracy (and a pretty pathetic one) it's bothersome to see voter turnout so low. Sure there are actually legitimate people who didn't vote because they had no one to vote for but we have too many "fuck it, elections decided, not like my votes gonna count" people who later go on ranting and raving about shitty policies. I know because I work with a bunch of said assholes.

[4444]

That's a pretty big what if, and we're never really gonna find out the answer to that one are we? So no point dwelling on that and building an argument over something hypothetical.

particularly because last election the so-called polling experts had the NDP to win by a wide margin only to find out that NDP voters are willing to answer polling questions but they're just too fucking lazy to actually take those answers to the ballot box

what do you mean you had no one to vote for? You do realize there are options outside of the traditional NDP and Liberal right? I'm not gonna get into how voting for other parties can affect election dynamics. But saying there's no one to vote for and wishing there was another system in place, that's just wishful thinking. Maybe in a place where rainbows and butterflies are the norm and where the cookie monster isn't addicted to cookies like a heroin addict is to heroin we'd have an option like that.

But we don't, we have this system in place. It's not perfect, quite far from it but it is what it is. If the liberals learned anything last season it's that they only have to target those who are most likely to vote.

As a democracy (and a pretty pathetic one) it's bothersome to see voter turnout so low. Sure there are actually legitimate people who didn't vote because they had no one to vote for but we have too many "fuck it, elections decided, not like my votes gonna count" people who later go on ranting and raving about shitty policies. I know because I work with a bunch of said assholes.
with all due respect, you started this hypothetical, in the hypothetical that the voting public weren't representative of the population on the whole.

i take your point wrt other parties... but really, who am i voting for, some independent (still have crusty as the provincial leader) or the conservative candidate (that party is a joke, it is the way i'd vote, but again, no one votes for bc conservatives, they don't even have enough ppl).

bc politics has become a joke

[6o4__boi]

lol either way arguing on a hypothetical basis is pointless in this context.

I never said it wasn't representative, though one could imply from the fact that I pointed out that there was a shitty turnout.

I would say that it is more likely that the 55% is not representative of the voting public than the 45% having the same make up. But again that's all hypothetical and we'll never really find out. I'm just playing the odds based on what I know.

yup, bc politics and the overall Canadian politics is pretty much a joke. But there's not much we can do about it other than chip away and hope for the best.

[4444]

Well there is something we can do, we can organize and protest, truly let them know how we feel. Have a peaceful revolution.

But this won't happen as ppl are too wrapped up in their own sad little lives to realize that if we help everyone, we all individually benefit

[7seven]

I voted for the BC Liberals last election and have since I started voting. Not the biggest fan of Christy Clark, was actually hoping that Kevin Falcon would have won the BC Liberal leadership race, but I voted for the party platform rather than Clark. I know a number of people personally who planned to vote BC Liberals that didn't vote last Provincial election because for months leading up to the election, the polling made it seemed like the NDP would win in a massive landslide so they felt like it wouldn't matter, such a stupid way of thinking.


I wonder how many teachers actually agree with the BCTF's demands and how they are being represented.

Smyth: If it’s really about the kids, why are teachers making excessive demands?


BY MICHAEL SMYTH, THE PROVINCE SEPTEMBER 4, 2014 11:17 AM


It’s true the B.C. Teachers’ Federation beat the Liberal government like a pinata in court for illegally stripping their contract 12 years ago.

That’s why the union is bound and determined to extract such a lucrative new contract from the government this time around. To the victor go the spoils, after all.

But there’s just one thing: The court’s ruling does NOT require the government to enshrine the eliminated NDP-era class-size and composition limits in a new deal.

The judge herself said the old limits are not “clad in stone” and should be the subject of future collective bargaining.

Yes, the judge ruled the old limits were “restored retroactively” but that ruling was stayed by another judge as the government appeals to a higher court.

The stay was opposed by the union, which wanted the new limits restored immediately. The government argued successfully that would have caused chaos and cost a fortune to immediately shrink classes and rehire teachers, librarians and other specialists.

(That’s right — despite their spectacular legal triumphs, the union lost the most recent critical skirmish in court.)

With the ruling in limbo until the matter is heard by the B.C. Court of Appeal — and likely by the Supreme Court of Canada after that — the two sides are left to negotiate a new contract in the meantime.

And that’s why the schools are shut down.

The union understandably feels it deserves massive new gains because of its court victory. The government understandably disagrees, knowing the court ruling carries no legal obligation to roll over to the union’s excessive new demands.

On the crucial issue of class size and composition, for example, the government proposes a $75-million-a-year “Learning Improvement Fund” to hire additional teachers, education assistants and other resources.

The union — saying the government is trying to escape the court judgment — has countered with a $225-million-a-year “Workload Fund” to be co-managed by the union and used “exclusively for the hiring of additional teachers.”

In other words, the Workload Fund would be used only to hire new members of the BCTF, because education assistants are represented by a different union.

Keep in mind that education assistants work directly with special-needs students, and they make a lot less money than teachers.

So if this dispute is really “all about the kids” as the BCTF says, why would they oppose spending more money on the education assistants that work with the most vulnerable kids of all?

And because they work cheaper than teachers, you could hire more EAs to boot, increasing the bang for the buck spent on special-needs kids.

Could it be because the union wants more union members paying more union dues into union coffers?

Say it isn’t so. After all, it’s all about the kids, right?



Smyth: If it?s really about the kids, why are teachers making excessive demands? (http://www.theprovince.com/news/Smyth+really+about+kids+teachers+making+excessive+ demands/10172306/story.html)

[noclue]

If the teachers are not happy with their union, can't they vote to de-unionize or seek new representation?

[MG1]

If the teachers are not happy with their union, can't they vote to de-unionize or seek new representation?

Not as easy as it sounds. They can always teach at a private school.

[6o4__boi]

lol i swear people think that teachers actually WANT to be on strike or something.

i'm pretty sure if the tf held voting on the issue of continuing the strike, majority of teachers will say fuckkit let's go back to work. There's a reason why the TF is insisting it won't hold voting on whether or not they should continue the strike.

and some people seem to think teachers are getting strike pay for the strike action...they're not. Which amazes me because they couldn't make me go out there and picket for free, I don't give a shit for who or what cause, I'm not wasting my time for free.

[hotjoint]

I thought the teachers were going to vote to continue striking or go back to work? I heard that on the radio last week.

[gars]

lol i swear people think that teachers actually WANT to be on strike or something.

i'm pretty sure if the tf held voting on the issue of continuing the strike, majority of teachers will say fuckkit let's go back to work. There's a reason why the TF is insisting it won't hold voting on whether or not they should continue the strike.

You'd be surprised how crazy some of the teachers and the union reps are. It is a secret vote (supposedly), but if word got out that you voted against the strike, you'd be ostracized within the teaching community.

My buddy told me that some of the strike votes were worded very strategically as well - like either you go on strike, or you take zero action. There is no middle ground. So obviously people had to vote for the strike.

[MG1]

lol i swear people think that teachers actually WANT to be on strike or something.

i'm pretty sure if the tf held voting on the issue of continuing the strike, majority of teachers will say fuckkit let's go back to work. There's a reason why the TF is insisting it won't hold voting on whether or not they should continue the strike.

and some people seem to think teachers are getting strike pay for the strike action...they're not. Which amazes me because they couldn't make me go out there and picket for free, I don't give a shit for who or what cause, I'm not wasting my time for free.

BCTF used to have a shitload of money, but court costs fighting the government in previous bouts pretty much depleted the "war chest". The government would love to bust the union. Talking with long time friends who are teachers and principals, teachers in urban districts are pretty upset over the class size and composition thing. Their classes are filled with ESL students and those who come from not so ideal situations. I feel for those kids who come from bad situations. School is the only stable thing in their lives. Those kids get fed at school and get good role models. Every day they are not in school means no breakfast or lunch and constant verbal and emotional abuse.

As for the vote to go back, hell yeah, the majority will vote yes, but at the same time the wording and the conditions will have to be right. Both sides cannot lose face. They're both stubborn. Iker had he chance when Fassbender said go back to work, while talks continue. Problem is, can you put trust in a government that has ignored the law? I try to put myself in other people's shoes........

I've been to a few union meetings and rally's in my days as a labourer. There's no end to the craziness. Some people get so passionate. Usually, the ones who get heavily involved in unions are the ones who are not the greatest of workers. They're the ones who need a unions protection. Having said that, unions have shaped this country and have improved working conditions. I've worked in non union shops and the abuse I saw was pretty disgusting.

[Timpo]

ok when are they gonna start school again?

[Timpo]

Obviously they would have to catch up somehow when the school starts.
There's a talk about how kids won't be gettiing winter and spring break..or shorten the next summer break.

There are some talks about running school like Asian countries, like 8am-5 or 6pm. Get off early at 3pm on Saturdays, only Sunday off, etc.

[MG1]

I had lunch with my friends who are in the teaching profession and dude walks up and asks them, when are you guys going back to work? Not nasty or anything. One of my friends who I thought was a calm collected individual replies with, "Are you married? Okay, do you know when your wife is going to have an afair and leave your sorry ass?" "Yup, same answer you're gonna git from me." I was a bit shocked, but he's pretty bitter with it all. He wants no part in this. Here's what the friend who's a principal said to me. I'll have to finish this when I get home the iPhone keeps telling me low on battery.

[tiger_handheld]

From what I hear, some-->several--->maybe reaching almost half want class size and composition to be two separate issues. First they want to agree on the gov't wages then get back to school, then negotiate on composition. These are probably teachers that everyone mentions about... the ones that truly care for the kids...

I was also told the "real reason" why this is dragging out longer, so if you know this to be true, please confirm. I've only heard this from a couple of people in the game...

So, the teachers don't want to back down because if they do, it'll set presidence on their pending court appeal where gov't ripped out class compo from the contract. The gov't want teachers to agree on the current terms so it'll set presidence on the pending appealed ruling. So, no one want to back down because it'll pave the way for the future...

meanwhile at Translink, salary freeze includes bonus to make up for the upcoming freeze that makes up the shortfall... which was released on friday aftertnoon when 99.5% of the province was focused on going back to school tuesday.

gotta love this province we call home. the bullshit never stops.

[GLOW]

Not as easy as it sounds. They can always teach at a private school.

i believe private schools have less benefits and don't pay very well. i have a friend that couldn't get a teaching job in public and taught at a few fancy private schools.

[tiger_handheld]

i believe private schools have less benefits and don't pay very well. i have a friend that couldn't get a teaching job in public and taught at a few fancy private schools.

Majority of private schools pay the same as BCTF less the union dues. The only shit part about priv. schools is their benefit package is like driving a kia vs. Bentley(BCTF)

[4444]

Majority of private schools pay the same as BCTF less the union dues. The only shit part about priv. schools is their benefit package is like driving a kia vs. Bentley(BCTF)

this is interesting, as I would think that private schools would have better levels of education... so if they're not paying more (whole package), does that tell you that either the teacher is only a relative part of the educational success of a student (maybe more comes from facilities, better built curriculum, etc.).

also it tells me that the market does not bear what the unionized teachers get - the market speaks the most true and loud, we should not pervert economics by ignoring what the market says...

[Hondaracer]

They do have a higher level..the top schools in the province consistently in both academics and athletics are all private. Funny how, as you said they are able to perform better without the union backing..

[4444]

well, i think hondaracer and i need to hoof over to the union negotiations - we've just solved the problem! get rid of the union and our kids will all be better off :)

[MG1]

Sorry, but there is no proof that teachers are better in the private sector. I believe it is the opposite. When parents can afford to send Johnny to a private school, you can bet Johnny is going to get as much support at home as well. The parents themselves are most likely well educated and connected. I would love to see a private school teacher go into a public school and deal with the kind of shit that's there. You don't have to "reach" the kids in a private school. If a kid becomes a problem, there are thousands of people on a waiting list to get in.


Don't you love it when a public school from the east side of Vancouver (Templeton of all places) kicks ass at a "Reach for the Top" competition? Beating out the likes of St. Georges. Doesn't happen often, but................

A good teacher is one who can raise the scores of the students. Challenge, inspire, and guide them.

Private school teachers continue to get paid, while the public school teachers carry on the fight. Weird how that works. Same as in any sector, I guess.

I'm spending way too much time in this thread, LOL. My kids are all done with school and my days as a PAC member at the schools are over and done with.

[Great68]

Sorry, but there is no proof that teachers are better in the private sector. I believe it is the opposite. When parents can afford to send Johnny to a private school, you can bet Johnny is going to get as much support at home as well. The parents themselves are most likely well educated and connected. I would love to see a private school teacher go into a public school and deal with the kind of shit that's there. You don't have to "reach" the kids in a private school. If a kid becomes a problem, there are thousands of people on a waiting list to get in.


Don't you love it when a public school from the east side of Vancouver (Templeton of all places) kicks ass at a "Reach for the Top" competition? Beating out the likes of St. Georges. Doesn't happen often, but................

A good teacher is one who can raise the scores of the students. Challenge, inspire, and guide them.

Private school teachers continue to get paid, while the public school teachers carry on the fight. Weird how that works. Same as in any sector, I guess.

I'm spending way too much time in this thread, LOL. My kids are all done with school and my days as a PAC member at the schools are over and done with.

Private school teachers also don't have to deal with nearly the same number/type of special needs students that you find in public schools.

[Traum]

also it tells me that the market does not bear what the unionized teachers get - the market speaks the most true and loud, we should not pervert economics by ignoring what the market says...
Of all people, you should know that the market price does not and often is not the fair trading price. The market price is merely that -- the market price.

[melloman]

Discussion around the dinner table last night was about teachers again..

I'm still adamant that they should not be getting such high raises/signing bonus' and benefits, but I do think the government needs to rethink the programs aspect.

We talked about the past, and how lots of kids with special needs didn't go to your typical public school. Autistic/mentally disabled kids weren't recommended, and had to go to special schools to suit their needs.. Since then many of these schools have closed down and the public school system has to pick up the slack.

Apparently the same thing has happened to ESL programs. Now I still remember in highschool, if you couldn't speak good English, you still had to take an ESL class before you were accepted into our normal English classes. Apparently that's going out too putting more burden on teachers.

English as Second Language Programs Swamped: Teachers' Group | The Tyee (http://thetyee.ca/News/2011/03/29/ESLTeachersSwamped/)

Instead of this huge fucking cash grab for teachers and BCTF pockets, I could agree that these programs need to be brought back. So THE STUDENTS can benefit.

[Mr.HappySilp]

Discussion around the dinner table last night was about teachers again..

I'm still adamant that they should not be getting such high raises/signing bonus' and benefits, but I do think the government needs to rethink the programs aspect.

We talked about the past, and how lots of kids with special needs didn't go to your typical public school. Autistic/mentally disabled kids weren't recommended, and had to go to special schools to suit their needs.. Since then many of these schools have closed down and the public school system has to pick up the slack.

Apparently the same thing has happened to ESL programs. Now I still remember in highschool, if you couldn't speak good English, you still had to take an ESL class before you were accepted into our normal English classes. Apparently that's going out too putting more burden on teachers.

English as Second Language Programs Swamped: Teachers' Group | The Tyee (http://thetyee.ca/News/2011/03/29/ESLTeachersSwamped/)

Instead of this huge fucking cash grab for teachers and BCTF pockets, I could agree that these programs need to be brought back. So THE STUDENTS can benefit.

About the ESL part. More and more schools and taking more and more international students to milk them so the needs for ESL teachers and programs to help them is needed. Of coz the gov won't tell you about this or use the money they got from these students back into the school systems.

[4444]

Of all people, you should know that the market price does not and often is not the fair trading price. The market price is merely that -- the market price.
quite the opposite, as a chartered business valuator, i know EXACTLY what fair market value is, and it is what arm's length parties would trade at when not under duress, or:

Fair Market Value – the price, expressed in terms of cash equivalents, at which property would change hands between a hypothetical willing and able buyer and a hypothetical willing and able seller, acting at arms length in an open and unrestricted market, when neither is under compulsion to buy or sell and when both have reasonable knowledge of the relevant facts. {NOTE: In Canada, the term “price” should be replaced with the term “highest price”}

[MG1]

Private school teachers also don't have to deal with nearly the same number/type of special needs students that you find in public schools.

Absolutely. Private schools can say, "No," to anyone who doesn't fit in or meet their criteria. Public schools are there for everybody else. That's why Christy would never send her sweetie to a public school where he might get beat up for lunch money or be forced to sit next to a kid with Tourettes.

[RRxtar]

They do have a higher level..the top schools in the province consistently in both academics and athletics are all private. Funny how, as you said they are able to perform better without the union backing..


Maybe the teachers are actually better since the private schools can hire the best teachers and fire the under performing teachers since those teachers aren't protected by a union. Free market employees will perform better than unionized employees in a high demand sector since their jobs are dependent on their performance, not union guaranteed.

[MG1]

^one would think, but my friend the principal says not.

In other news, as in listening to News 11:30, binding arbitration is being talked about. It might be close to being over.

[SpeedStars]

^° BCTF promises vote that could end strike if province agrees to binding arbitration - The Globe and Mail (http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/bctf-promises-vote-that-could-end-strike-if-province-agrees-to-binding-arbitration/article20369262/?service=mobile)

This just reaffirms that the BCTF is in it for the money and benefits. See how they put their needs FIRST and let the needs of the children to the courts? The government is also considering paying parents $40/day that the student (under 12) is out of school...sounds like the government is trying to sway the parents onto their side as well

[Traum]

SpeedStars, I dunno how you can come to your conclusion of that the BCTF is primarily in it for the money and benefits. What's wrong with the BCTF leaving the class size and composition clauses to up the courts to decide, especially when the courts have already twice agreed with them?

The willingness to enter binding arbitration seems entirely reasonable with me, as that in itself is a huge gamble for both parties involved. Either side could stand to lose what they came out to bargain for, but at least it represents a willingness to end the labour dispute.

[quasi]

^° BCTF promises vote that could end strike if province agrees to binding arbitration - The Globe and Mail (http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/bctf-promises-vote-that-could-end-strike-if-province-agrees-to-binding-arbitration/article20369262/?service=mobile)

The government is also considering paying parents $40/day that the student (under 12) is out of school...sounds like the government is trying to sway the parents onto their side as well


Considering? That is a done deal, website registration is up.

[MarkyMark]

40 bucks per kid a day adds up pretty quick how much is that going to cost per week

[Hondaracer]

Absolutely. Private schools can say, "No," to anyone who doesn't fit in or meet their criteria. Public schools are there for everybody else. That's why Christy would never send her sweetie to a public school where he might get beat up for lunch money or be forced to sit next to a kid with Tourettes.

Successful parents sending kids to good teachers = successful kids

Why would anyone like Kristy or anyone with the resources put their child at a disadvantage?

Even if you're an excellent parent who supports your child, if they get stuck in a class where a teacher is "overwhelmed" by having a student who needs extra attention your child is already at a disadvantage

Also all the people going on about the teachers taking extra time for sports etc. I can appreciate the ones who really do put a tonne of time into but for both the sports I took part in during high school the teachers were only needed as "sponsors" to the team and when there was any sort of job action even being talked about they automatically backed out and we needed to use "supervisors" who were employed by the school as our sponsor. Our rugby coach was a former captain of team canada who basically did it because he knew most of us from playing for club teams. Our hockey coach was a parent and the sponsor was a councilor who only showed up to playoff games.

shit is no different than the hockey coach or coaches working for private organizations who get paid nearly nothing.

[MG1]

Spoke too soon. Binding arbitration looks like a no go the way Fassbender addressed the announcement by Iker earlier. Do not want third party deciding anything........ to his credit, the details of the proposal were not given to him as of the news conference. So on it is again.

[Traum]

^^ If the government is unwilling to enter into binding arbitration, it just goes to show who is interested in ending this labour dispute, and who just want to have things their way.

[MG1]

Successful parents sending kids to good teachers = successful kids

Why would anyone like Kristy or anyone with the resources put their child at a disadvantage?

Even if you're an excellent parent who supports your child, if they get stuck in a class where a teacher is "overwhelmed" by having a student who needs extra attention your child is already at a disadvantage



Here's the thing. Public schools offer a lot of diverse situations that private schools cannot offer. My children, who went to public school, had a great time and was exposed to all kinds of neat things. Not all private schools have rowing teams and a big budget. Anyway, there are pros and cons to both sides. French Immersion = a private school in a public school setting. To be in that programme, you had to have good study skills. Having said that, I think nowadays, even that programme is watered down,. But hey, that's par for the course.

[Gululu]

Love Democracy.

[StylinRed]

this is interesting, as I would think that private schools would have better levels of education...

That's true for other countries as I recall studies in Canada have shown public school students performing better than private school students...iirc it was regarding the sciences

[MG1]

Isn't it funny how the US and Canada are not at the top of the list when it comes to academic performance? At least we're good at hockey........ take that, you Asian countries, LOL.

[Gululu]

Isn't it funny how the US and Canada are not at the top of the list when it comes to academic performance? At least we're good at hockey........ take that, you Asian countries, LOL.

That's hardly a surprise. Right now, I don't know what the mainstream stats show; however based on my readings from local Chinese news, 95% of Chinese parents in BC blame the BCTF union. The parents view teachers as greedy, lazy, and incompetent. I remember more recently (contrast to the past) there was a spike in international students coming over to study in BC as early as high school and even elementary. Now you can be sure that this whole fiasco will make Canada's education system look worse than it already is. Those parents forking out 20k (not including living expenses of course) to send their sons and daughters to a public school here in BC are not gonna be pleased. Right now they demand either a refund, or teachers resume work. In the future, less and less international students will choose to study in Canada. Is this what BCTF wants? By the way, I get a feeling that BCTF union is extremely toxic to the educational system. They complain being understaffed, yet new teachers can't get jobs. I feel bad for our students because they are the victims, in the end they do not receive the quality of education they deserve.

[MG1]

Now you can be sure that this whole fiasco will make Canada's education system look worse than it already is. Those parents forking out 20k (not including living expenses of course) to send their sons and daughters to a public school here in BC are not gonna be pleased. Right now they demand either a refund, or teachers resume work. In the future, less and less international students will choose to study in Canada.

BNR? Good to see you're back.


Anyway, they can always go to the US or one of the other Canadian provinces. They don't have to come here, if it's that bad.

[Traum]

^^ That's your problem right there -- local Chinese news feeding the mostly conservative Chinese parents. I am also willing to be that the vast majority of them have no idea what the core issues of this labour dispute is all about. Class size, composition, and ruling from Supreme Court? They have no idea what those things mean in this labour conflict.

[Timpo]

this is interesting, as I would think that private schools would have better levels of education... so if they're not paying more (whole package), does that tell you that either the teacher is only a relative part of the educational success of a student (maybe more comes from facilities, better built curriculum, etc.).

also it tells me that the market does not bear what the unionized teachers get - the market speaks the most true and loud, we should not pervert economics by ignoring what the market says...

That's like saying GM and Hyundai executives/engineers/employees should get much less than McLaren and Ferrari because GM and Hyundai make mostly low end cars and McLaren and Ferrari make high end cars.

[Timpo]

No more international students!
They can just go somewhere else!

International students in awkward spot thanks to teachers? strike | News1130 (http://www.news1130.com/2014/09/05/international-students-awkward-spot-thanks-to-teachers-strike/)

[Hondaracer]

^^ That's your problem right there -- local Chinese news feeding the mostly conservative Chinese parents. I am also willing to be that the vast majority of them have no idea what the core issues of this labour dispute is all about. Class size, composition, and ruling from Supreme Court? They have no idea what those things mean in this labour conflict.

No offense but as actual residents of BC really dgaf what parents in china are heading.

[Traum]

No offense but as actual residents of BC really dgaf what parents in china are heading.
Gululu was referring to Chinese parents in BC, and my comment was directed at that. The majority of ethnic Chinese people have this mentality that they don't really give a shxt about anything unless it directly affects them, and then they start to bxtch and whine solely from the perspective of their own benefits without understanding the big picture.

[Graeme S]

^° BCTF promises vote that could end strike if province agrees to binding arbitration - The Globe and Mail (http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/bctf-promises-vote-that-could-end-strike-if-province-agrees-to-binding-arbitration/article20369262/?service=mobile)

This just reaffirms that the BCTF is in it for the money and benefits. See how they put their needs FIRST and let the needs of the children to the courts? The government is also considering paying parents $40/day that the student (under 12) is out of school...sounds like the government is trying to sway the parents onto their side as well

If we're looking at the needs of the kids (re: class size/composition), it's the province that's not on the side of the kids. The current offer from the province "continues existing language" of the legislated agreements--class sizes and composition will stay the same. The courts have twice (two for three--third pending!) said that class size and composition should return to pre-2002 levels. If the teachers agree with the offer that's out right now, then the court ruling doesn't mean anything, because the court ruling is based on the idea that "the Provincial Government took away something that had always previously been negotiated." Which means that should the teachers choose to agree in a negotiation to current levels, then the court rulings mean nothing and class size and composition will remain unchanged.

By deferring to the courts, and insisting that the language of the new contract reflect what the courts have already determined (or by requesting binding arbitration--which must follow the letter of legal rulings to date), they are doing exactly what you said: looking out for the best interests of kids.


Do I think the teachers' pay and signing bonus requests are entirely reasonable? Nope. But that's what you do when you negotiate. You never start where you want to finish, you start where there's a middle between you both.

[4444]

That's like saying GM and Hyundai executives/engineers/employees should get much less than McLaren and Ferrari because GM and Hyundai make mostly low end cars and McLaren and Ferrari make high end cars.

Nope, not at all. Different markets.

I would say a teacher's key performance indicator is their students' performance. They are paid a market value in private sector for this.

Ur stupid example is bunk. Gm and Hyundai do not have 'produce expensive higher margin cars' as their KPI, theirs is more a mass market product, so low cost, healthy margin is what they're after.

Ferrari, Mclaren produce niche products, their focus is on amazing engineering, continuation of a legacy, soul of the car, new tech development and implementation, etc. margins come with that.

Apples to oranges in all senses

[tiger_handheld]

Can someone in the sector explain how principal's and vp's add value to elementary/high school? I understand they are the "general manager" of the school, but what is their function/purpose?

[MG1]

Um...... They can like make or break a school. They decide on the direction of the school. They work with parents. Man, if I had to list their duties, I would need a hundred pages. Wow.

[tiger_handheld]

Um...... They can like make or break a school. They decide on the direction of the school. They work with parents. Man, if I had to list their duties, I would need a hundred pages. Wow.

can you list the top 5 or 10 reasons?
What do you mean by "direction of the school"?

[Hondaracer]

Obviously roles like that are just cushy union positions. All throughout highschool our principle never dealt with any single issue personally it was always the vice principle. He was there to hand out diplomas etc but never once did I witness them handing out discipline, making announcements, etc

Pay your dues as a vice principle then sit back when you get promoted

[MG1]

Um.......... principals don't belong to the union. They have an association perhaps (depending on the school district), but they, of all people are the least protected. They can be fired just like that.

As for doing nothing but handing out certificates and diplomas at the grad ceremonies, that's what people see. A helluva lot more happens behind the scenes.

Like i've mentioned before, everyone is an expert when it comes to education, because everyone went to school. You base everything from your perspective. That's okay, I used to be just like that in my younger days. Actually still am, LOL.

god bless

[Terwg]

The principal of a school is similar to the CEO of the company. They have to meet with parents similar to shareholders of a company. They have to meet with the government. They have to set the vision and culture and direction of the school and the education approach and method that the school takes and uses that is a good fit for both the students and the teachers of the school. They have to have the ability to see what is working or not and make necessary changes. They have to have plans to hire the best teachers and understand what motivates them so that the school can best retain them especially in competition with private schools who would offer more money for the same position.

[MG1]

I've dealt with a lot of administrators over the years. From primary and elementary to middle and secondary schools. A not so effective administator can kill a school in a matter of months. I think principals in larger secondary schools, where three to four vice principals are working below the principal, the principal tends to be less effective and ends up hiding in their office.

The most important trait of an effective principal is their educational leadership. Without that, the grounds keeper might as well be the principal (okay, no Star Fleet Academy references here). My kids' secondary school had a wonderful principal. She was very uptodate with the latest in pedagogical research, brain development research, etc. She was always out there engaged with the students and supported any teacher who had a passion they wanted to share. Worked tirelessly and selflessly. Don't know how she did it. She left the school and it was never the same. It affected the teachers greatly, as well.

A school with an ineffective pricipal would be one where the staff are fighting all the time with each other (no cohesion), there's no focus or energy, the parents have little to no input, and most importantly, the students are miserable. It all trickles down from the top.

No different than any other organization.

[Tapioca]

Based on the comments in this thread, what I've learned in this thread is that:

- Teachers are really just glorified babysitters that should be compensated similarly to the babysitter next door ($14/hour)
- Public schooling in BC is a shambles, so too bad for all of the poor people that have to use it
- People who do other jobs don't add value because my job is more important than everyone else's and adds far more value to the world
- My opinions are correct and hold more weight because I believe them to be so
- Because I work with money, I am inherently smarter than you
- Because I bust my balls working 14 hours a day, I am inherently smarter than you too

[MG1]

^I'm sorry to hear that. RS threads, FTW!

[Graeme S]

Based on the comments in this thread, what I've learned in this thread is that:

- Teachers are really just glorified babysitters that should be compensated similarly to the babysitter next door ($14/hour)
- Public schooling in BC is a shambles, so too bad for all of the poor people that have to use it
- People who do other jobs don't add value because my job is more important than everyone else's and adds far more value to the world
- My opinions are correct and hold more weight because I believe them to be so
- Because I work with money, I am inherently smarter than you
- Because I bust my balls working 14 hours a day, I am inherently smarter than you too
I think this applies to pretty much every thread on RS where people have a difference of opinion.

...No. Nevermind. Not RS. The Internets.

[Soundy]

If we're looking at the needs of the kids (re: class size/composition), it's the province that's not on the side of the kids. The current offer from the province "continues existing language" of the legislated agreements--class sizes and composition will stay the same. The courts have twice (two for three--third pending!) said that class size and composition should return to pre-2002 levels.

Smyth: If it?s really about the kids, why are teachers making excessive demands? (http://www.theprovince.com/news/Smyth+really+about+kids+teachers+making+excessive+ demands/10172306/story.html)

The court’s ruling does NOT require the government to enshrine the eliminated NDP-era class-size and composition limits in a new deal.

The judge herself said the old limits are not “clad in stone” and should be the subject of future collective bargaining.

Yes, the judge ruled the old limits were “restored retroactively” but that ruling was stayed by another judge as the government appeals to a higher court.

The stay was opposed by the union, which wanted the new limits restored immediately. The government argued successfully that would have caused chaos and cost a fortune to immediately shrink classes and rehire teachers, librarians and other specialists.

(That’s right — despite their spectacular legal triumphs, the union lost the most recent critical skirmish in court.)

As for the supposition that simply restoring the old contract is a simple thing that will instantly make life better for students:

On the crucial issue of class size and composition, for example, the government proposes a $75-million-a-year “Learning Improvement Fund” to hire additional teachers, education assistants and other resources.

The union — saying the government is trying to escape the court judgment — has countered with a $225-million-a-year “Workload Fund” to be co-managed by the union and used “exclusively for the hiring of additional teachers.”

In other words, the Workload Fund would be used only to hire new members of the BCTF, because education assistants are represented by a different union.

Keep in mind that education assistants work directly with special-needs students, and they make a lot less money than teachers.

So if this dispute is really “all about the kids” as the BCTF says, why would they oppose spending more money on the education assistants that work with the most vulnerable kids of all?

[Graeme S]

Soundy:
"Excessive" is a relative term, and if you had gotten no raises, or raises below the rate of inflation you would probably be asking for a bit more after nearly a decade. Whatever is outside the government's "Affordability zone" is considered excessive. Whatever the government budgets is what it wants to spend, regardless of the economic situation. Which, as a sidenote, is surprisingly good. Normally I'm not a fan of hack-and-slash budgets, especially with tax drops, but the Government itself announced a $200-someodd million surplus to date in the quarter just a bit ago. Affordable is, as always, a relative term.

And I absolutely agree: there is nothing in the court decisions that say that staffing levels must return to exactly pre-2002 levels. What the judgement says is that the government unfairly and unilaterally stripped those levels, and as a result they must be negotiated between the teachers and Government. The Government says that they should negotiate based on today's staffing levels. The Teachers say that they should negotiate based on 2002's levels. The fact that they need to be negotiated at all is a factor, as the government has essentially turned their negotiation on the subject into the argument: "Well, classrooms are still passing students, so it must be doing a good enough job!"


As for the difference in where the money is going, I'm kind of split 50/50. I feel that there are some situations in which certified teachers are a necessity, but at the same time that there are plenty of options for non-BCTF support workers that would easily bolster the effectiveness and efficiency of teachers.



The long and the short of it is, I think that a compromise is in due order. Sadly, at this point, neither side seems to be interested. I'll be honest: I think that binding arbitration is the best option at this point. Whatever they say, we can pretty much guarantee that BOTH sides will be unhappy. And if that's true, then we can pretty much agree that everyone got the least-worst deal.

[MG1]

In for a long one - no surprise. Fassbender just formally rejected the arbritration idea.

Bust the union has always been the prime directive and they're getting closer. The longer this goes on, the more people will side with the government, because people, by nature, don't give a shit about anyone else except themselves. Iker and the BCTF must have known this.

Both sides are digging in. Like with any war, there will be casualties. Of all the parties involved, the government will come out on top with the children and teachers being the casualties. The government has the responsibility to provide education to the children of this province, but they don't want to legislate the teachers back to work.

[Soundy]

Soundy:
"Excessive" is a relative term, and if you had gotten no raises, or raises below the rate of inflation you would probably be asking for a bit more after nearly a decade.
A $5000 signing bonus for 40,000 members sounds pretty excessive to me (grand total: $200M). The infamous $3k annual massage allowance (now off the table, granted) seems pretty excessive by any measure. $225M/year in a fund primarily for hiring new union members (nothing to do with raises to existing members) could be easily considered excessive. When it comes to wages and raises, anything SUBSTANTIALLY beyond what other public sector unions have already agreed to, I'd say it's pretty safe to call "excessive".

Normally I'm not a fan of hack-and-slash budgets, especially with tax drops, but the Government itself announced a $200-someodd million surplus to date in the quarter just a bit ago. Affordable is, as always, a relative term.
Keep in mind that "affordable" in this case has to take into account the other PSUs' me-too clauses that could potentially cost billions more. That's not the government's money, BTW... that's yours, mine, and everyone else's. People talk about the kids' future, but that's a debt that's going to fall to them as well if it happens. It's not as simple as just "give the teachers what they want."

[Lomac]

The massage allowance outrage confuses me. When I was working as a basic associate in a retail store, my medical coverage gave me up to $5000 in coverage for massages/physical therapy. Currently I don't get that much of a coverage for it, but who cares?

I don't get the mentality of, "If I don't get those benefits at my job, why should you?"

[Graeme S]

A $5000 signing bonus for 40,000 members sounds pretty excessive to me (grand total: $200M). The infamous $3k annual massage allowance (now off the table, granted) seems pretty excessive by any measure. $225M/year in a fund primarily for hiring new union members (nothing to do with raises to existing members) could be easily considered excessive. When it comes to wages and raises, anything SUBSTANTIALLY beyond what other public sector unions have already agreed to, I'd say it's pretty safe to call "excessive".
The signing bonus was added as a counter to an earlier Government incentive. I think it was $2k to sign a contract before the end of July? Either way, it seems like it's one of those "take it and run with it" things.

$3,000 massage allowance was under doctor's orders, so that teachers who had been placed under physical strain (I'll admit, I can't remember a time I've seen a teacher overly physically strained) wouldn't have to be out of pocket if they needed treatment. It wasn't an "Oh look, I can get massages once a week 'cause I'll never spend more than the $3,000 cap!"

The negotiations sometimes remind me a bit of an interview I once saw with Seth Macfarlane on fighting with the censorship people at Fox. There were a bunch of jokes they threw into the scripts for the specific purpose of being able to throw them out. If they just presented the script as they wanted it, the censors would pick the most outrageous (funniest) jokes and say "nope, not happening". Instead, they found the disposable jokes and got rid of them, allowing what they originally wanted to be kept.


Keep in mind that "affordable" in this case has to take into account the other PSUs' me-too clauses that could potentially cost billions more. That's not the government's money, BTW... that's yours, mine, and everyone else's. People talk about the kids' future, but that's a debt that's going to fall to them as well if it happens. It's not as simple as just "give the teachers what they want."

Oh, I understand and agree with that. However, what the Government is calling "Wage Increases" and what you and I would call a Wage Increase is different. Wage increase sounds like a raise, right? Not according to the government definition. It's "An increase in spending in wages in any way"; which in this case includes new hiring. New hires is not the same as wage increases, despite the way that it's worded.

And yes, I'm very well aware that it's taxpayer money--mine included--that's being spent. I'll be honest with you. I'm on my way up in the earnings ways. I'm currently earning more than I have before, and I'll be earning more in the next coming few years than I am now. And despite that, I'm in favour of raising taxes.

Hospital wait times, swamped teachers, unfixed potholes, insufficient traffic infrastructure and the list goes on. While I'm all for having my own money, I'm also for making sure that the greater whole is served as well.






As an aside to all this, I find it frustrating that most of these negotiations are actually being held like this. How many other situations are negotiations and back-and-forths held in the public? How many times have you negotiated with your boss only to have him put up an office memo insisting that the raise you want is too high and disproportionate to the other workers, and that you need to understand that you don't necessarily add value where others do? Negotiations should be held privately, and if there's no resolution, then be damned with it and just leave it at that.

[quasi]

Hospital wait times, swamped teachers, unfixed potholes, insufficient traffic infrastructure and the list goes on. While I'm all for having my own money, I'm also for making sure that the greater whole is served as well.


I agree with you that most of these areas need help but just throwing money at it is going to do very little. Raising taxes is fine as long as there is a plan, saying we're going to dump X amount of dollars into hospitals or roads will more likely then not be eaten up in red tape with no significant improvement.

We pay enough taxes they are just allocated piss poorly with to much waste.

[Soundy]

I agree with you that most of these areas need help but just throwing money at it is going to do very little.
Well this is the thing too... they want more classroom support, they want their TAs and SEAs, who are part of a different union... but the $225M they want for "class size blah blah blah" is to be administered BY THEM, to hire more members for THEIR OWN union? How is that not "just throwing money at it"?

[MG1]

^yup, anything a government does, the private sector can do in half the time and at half the cost.

Government is in there to make money for themselves. It's like giving money to charitable organizations. A fifth or less of what you donate actually reaches the intended target. The rest is swallowed up in operating costs. Then, there's corruption.

[MG1]

So, when all is said and done and the dust settles, I don't think public education in this province will ever be the same.

Back to what my friend who's a principal told me the other day. The new wave of teachers (I'd call them the new breed of teachers) are indeed in it for the two months off, the money, and the benefits package (I guess whoever posted that comment earlier in this thread was right, afterall). Before I continue, this does not mean every new teacher is like this........

These noobs are going, or wanting to go, into the teaching profession because their degree in whatever field it was did not result in a job or pan out as planned. So the best solution is to take another year's worth of University credits in education and become a teacher. Even though it's not easy to get a teaching position, it's better than not working. Along the way, most will give up after they realize how difficult it is, while others will succeed. When, and if, a job opportunity in their field comes up, they're out of there in a heartbeat. These people's hearts are not in it. Teaching is just another job, not a career.

I feel badly for those who want to go into the teaching profession because it's their passion and life long ambition - to make a difference. Because there is a shortage of job openings and a shitload of "I want my two months off" types, it's going to take years of accepting part time and temp positions before they land a full time teaching position.

With the way things have gone the past twelve years or so, many really good teachers are weary of it all. Many have given up and lost their passion. No longer will they want to give it their all. Some would just leave the profession. This is not good. With the new wave of teachers getting into this profession with "I don't give a shit attitude" and the ones who have and will stop giving it their all, what's left? It really is going to become a glorified babysitting service. Collect your paycheck and get the hell out will become the norm in a profession that used to be highly regarded.

Getting back to the new wave teachers, my principal friend said all is not lost. He knows of a few who have become great educators. They have found their calling. Some have discovered that they have a talent for reaching out to kids - to make a difference.

"Those who can, do and those who can't, teach" has now become, "Those who can make a difference, teach!"

I don't know if any of this made sense, but I think public education in BC will never be the same again. The quality will no longer be there. I blame the union just as much as the government. They have hidden agendas like the government. Somewhere along the way, the good ones will be lost. That would be a crying shame. Our education system will be just a bad as those south of the border (with the exception of California, Texas, and a handful of others).

As a side note, those mentioned states recruit up here in Canada. They've been doing it for some time and keep saying we have the best. We've lost a lot of talented teachers that way. Again, not surprising.


so solly for rambling on..............

[quasi]

^
Have a friend like that when he finished school he couldn't find a job doing what he wanted to do so he went back and got his teaching certification. He teaches because he's not sure what he wants to do, subs (when he feels like it) no desire to get a full time job teaching and waits tables at night.

In contrast my wife has a friend that was the total opposite, wanted to teach went to school so she could become a teacher and does it full time now for the last bunch of years and loves it.

To what you said there are all types, it's not that different then any other profession really.

[MG1]

Went back in time when my family used to have dinners together and here is what I imagined it to be..

Discussion around the dinner table last night was about teachers again..

Why did this government offer parents $40.00 a day? Answer from one of my children: Could this be the beginning of a voucher school system, dad?

Did some digging around and ding, ding, ding....... interesting read, eh? CIC would be proud of this..........

B.C. today: Labour conflict or school reform? | rabble.ca (http://rabble.ca/news/2014/08/bc-today-labour-conflict-or-school-reform)

For those who's dinner table discussions involve the blame game, this article will not excite you. So go back to your.... hey, that sounds like........ I love that song. Murray Head, FTW!


Take all this with a grain of salt, people. It's just food for thought and one person's opinion (maybe even biased).

[Timpo]

ok so to make a long story short, school won't start until mid October or even later.

[Soundy]

I don't know if any of this made sense, but I think public education in BC will never be the same again.
With some of the weird shit going on in education today, I'm not sure that's such a bad thing.

The quality will no longer be there.
That really depends on how it changes, doesn't it?

Somewhere along the way, the good ones will be lost.
How this for a hypothesis: if they can get the union under control and institute controls so that teachers can be paid more on a merit basis, rather than just a seniority scale... that would help boost the good ones (regardless of WHY they're in it, a good teacher is a good teacher) and weed out the useless twats, no? If they change the system so lazy, shitty, uncaring teachers can be ousted, rather than just being blindly protected by their union, and replaced with this who have a love for it... that's not only better for the kids, it's better for the morale of other GOOD teachers who don't have to watch the plugs get all the same pay and perks as them without having their hearts in it.

Then the good ones aren't lost... but encouraged.

[quasi]

ok so to make a long story short, school won't start until mid October or even later.

Highly doubt it and for the sake of the kids I hope I'm not wrong.

[meme405]

(I guess whoever posted that comment earlier in this thread was right, afterall).

Me.

Humans are inherently greedy, 99% of humans would not work if it wasn't for the pay cheque. So to say that "I don't do my job for the money" is just idiotic.

[GLOW]

How this for a hypothesis: if they can get the union under control and institute controls so that teachers can be paid more on a merit basis, rather than just a seniority scale... that would help boost the good ones (regardless of WHY they're in it, a good teacher is a good teacher) and weed out the useless twats, no? If they change the system so lazy, shitty, uncaring teachers can be ousted, rather than just being blindly protected by their union, and replaced with this who have a love for it... that's not only better for the kids, it's better for the morale of other GOOD teachers who don't have to watch the plugs get all the same pay and perks as them without having their hearts in it.

Then the good ones aren't lost... but encouraged.

what would the merit be? if it's soley on grades i can see it be like that episode of the simpsons where skinner and supnintendo chalmers implement hijinx to make it look like they have A+ students

[MG1]

How this for a hypothesis: if they can get the union under control and institute controls so that teachers can be paid more on a merit basis, rather than just a seniority scale... that would help boost the good ones (regardless of WHY they're in it, a good teacher is a good teacher) and weed out the useless twats, no? If they change the system so lazy, shitty, uncaring teachers can be ousted, rather than just being blindly protected by their union, and replaced with this who have a love for it... that's not only better for the kids, it's better for the morale of other GOOD teachers who don't have to watch the plugs get all the same pay and perks as them without having their hearts in it.

Then the good ones aren't lost... but encouraged.

Soundy, I was just thinking of you as I crossed back into Canada via Huntingdon. I was gonna look you up, but had to be home by noon.

Anyway, if you or godwin (you two could be brothers) ever decide to go into politics, I would vote for you guys in a heartbeat. What you proposed is great. However, you and I, having been around the block a few times, know why this would not work. It doesn't matter what field you are in or what sector you are in the ratio of lazy, incompetent workers to effective and efficient ones is not good.

When I worked in that processing plant, which was non-union, btw, useless people were around every corner. We're talking management as well as workers. When I pick up the newspaper or a magazine and see spelling and grammatical errors in every paragraph, I just shake my head. Everywhere I go, there is incompetence. We have shitty roads and really dumb signage..... I can go on. The teaching profession is no different. The quality of teachers here in North America is pretty low. Why is that? We draw from the public. Not only that, the Universities are failing the system. Faculty advisors...... wow.

The Ministry of Education. Some of the really dumb things they have done boggles the mind. Yet we continue to throw money their way. We have people who abuse and milk the system all the time.

Getting back to teachers, yes there are good ones. Some are stellar. If we got rid of all the lazy and "in it for the money and vacation time", types, we'd be left with very little. And the replacements aren't going to be much better.

It's sad, but that's reality. So let's say there are enough good ones and we weed the bad ones and replace them with promising stars. How are we going to determine what is good and what is bad? We will have teachers teaching to the test. It's happening right now. The Fraser Report is a prime example of this. Private schools feel this the most. Their teachers' jobs are on the line as well as the school's reputation. Damn the challenging of kids and promoting higher critical thinking skills, we have to spend the majority of class time teaching to the sometimes useless standardized test. Cancel the stuff like music programs, artsy fartsy stuff, and field trips. Let's get those kids on task. Results, results, results.

In public schools where just getting some kids into the school is a challenge. how the heck are we going to measure success? Retention rates? Be nice to the kids, so teacher gets a good mark. The education system in the US is in shambles. Ours is still salvageable. Voucher schools?????

There is no cut and dry answer, but one thing is for sure, the quality or better still, the number of quality teachers in the system are dwindling at an alarming rate.

One suggestion I would make, premier Soundy, is to start with the post secondary schools that continue to supply us with sub par product. Make it so the 10,000 or so teacher wannabes are the best in the world. Then we can start talking about weeding. I guess this is like gardening... sowing the seeds and watering it............. damn. I'm just outta word.

[Timpo]

Highly doubt it and for the sake of the kids I hope I'm not wrong.

Here's the latest news.
It says brace for another week, so maybe you're right. At least at this point anyways.

B.C. teachers' strike: students brace for another week without classes - British Columbia - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-teachers-strike-students-brace-for-another-week-without-classes-1.2758560)

[MG1]

IKEA v.2.0

[parm104]

IKEA v.2.0

And look how far they've come...13 months later and they're making less than minimum wage, barely making enough money to scrape by. Ikea doesn't give a shit about those workers because there are plenty who would rather cross the picket lines and work (if there weren't any repercussions) and many others who are desperate for a job and would start working tomorrow morning if they could.

[MG1]

It's only a matter of time before some teachers decide to just leave the union and start up their own schools. The ones who can manage that are the good ones........ so it begins.

[Soundy]

It's only a matter of time before some teachers decide to just leave the union and start up their own schools. The ones who can manage that are the good ones........ so it begins.
Here's the thing: there is an excess, a GLUT even, of teachers in BC - I think the number I heard was 30,000, trained, certified, and ready to go in the classroom. They don't need any to leave the union in order to staff schools, there are almost as many not working as are working (er, well, if you count walking a picket line as working).

I do have some comments on your other reply, but it's a pain to write on the tablet...

[Gululu]

http://i.imgur.com/V3YNzh3.jpg

[MG1]

Here's the thing: there is an excess, a GLUT even, of teachers in BC - I think the number I heard was 30,000, trained, certified, and ready to go in the classroom. They don't need any to leave the union in order to staff schools, there are almost as many not working as are working (er, well, if you count walking a picket line as working).

I do have some comments on your other reply, but it's a pain to write on the tablet...

30,000 or 30 billion, it doesn't matter. Anyway, this thread......... I'm officially out of here. Someone virtually slap me up the side of the head if I come in here again, hee hee.

Edit: Nothing to do with you, soundy......... just waste of time.

[pastarocket]

I doubt that the government gave the Timbits to the teachers in Maple Ridge.

Everybody knows that the government is full of shit, instead of piss. :fuckthatshit: :lawl:

Striking teachers claim they were sent urine-soaked donuts (http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2014/09/teachers-say-sent-urine-soaked-donuts/)

[Soundy]

what would the merit be? if it's soley on grades i can see it be like that episode of the simpsons where skinner and supnintendo chalmers implement hijinx to make it look like they have A+ students

Obviously a combination of factors would be considered... how about tests at the beginning and ending of the year, and results compared to see whether students come out of a certain class dumber than when they went in? Not comparing one school or region or district to another, but just comparing that class between two time periods.

Maybe factor in a student/parent rating or review system... averaged, of course, to help mitigate the perpetual whiners and those who think their kids' teachers can do no wrong.

I'm sure there are plenty of other things that can be taken into consideration... there's no one simple solution.

Of course, the union would be utterly against either of these ideas, which is probably an indication they're good ones.

[tiger_handheld]

Obviously a combination of factors would be considered... how about tests at the beginning and ending of the year, and results compared to see whether students come out of a certain class dumber than when they went in? Not comparing one school or region or district to another, but just comparing that class between two time periods.

Maybe factor in a student/parent rating or review system... averaged, of course, to help mitigate the perpetual whiners and those who think their kids' teachers can do no wrong.

I'm sure there are plenty of other things that can be taken into consideration... there's no one simple solution.

Of course, the union would be utterly against either of these ideas, which is probably an indication they're good ones.


Or you could have students rate their teachers during the mid point of the following year. If the teacher really stood out and made a difference in their education, they would remember or if the kid really hated them the kid would remember.

There would need to be some way to normalize the
love (A+)/hate(F) based on grades received by the student to really get a reasonable score for the teacher.

They've actually used this type of rating in a program I took and they have fired certain instructors solely based on student feedback.

[quasi]

^

Problem with that you can have teachers that get along with the students great, are fun as hell to have as a student but can't teach worth shit. It becomes a popularity contest, catering to the students and having them like you would be more important then teaching them.

[Timpo]

B.C. teachers' strike drags on with no end in sight

B.C. teachers' strike drags on with no end in sight - British Columbia - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-teachers-strike-drags-on-with-no-end-in-sight-1.2762099) :eek:

[Timpo]

I remember Kevin O'Leary saying "Education is not a right, it's a privilege" in one of his interviews. How kids in Canada are way too spoiled, etc.

http://www.netnewsledger.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Kevin-Oleary.jpg

[hud 91gt]

Kevin O'Leary is an idiot.

[tiger_handheld]

^

Problem with that you can have teachers that get along with the students great, are fun as hell to have as a student but can't teach worth shit. It becomes a popularity contest, catering to the students and having them like you would be more important then teaching them.


Thats why it's at the mid point of the following year. The teacher can be really fun and let you off 20mins early every day, but if doing so leaves you at a disadvantage, what are the chances the student will give the previous teacher a good grade?

The current teacher is expecting you to know the topics from last year, but too bad you were let out early 20 mins early and were not able to cover that..

This is probably applies more to classes like math or chem where each year you build on the prior year.

[Purely]

I feel bad for the students in grade 12...

[melloman]

B.C. teachers overwhelmingly vote to return to the classroom if government agrees to arbitration (with video) (http://www.theprovince.com/business/teachers+overwhelmingly+vote+return+classroom+gove rnment+agrees+arbitration+with+video/10191240/story.html)

Welp binding arbitration passed ofcourse with a 99.4% pass.. :facepalm:

Now all I'm going to hear on the news is... "The government isn't fair. we had a vote and the government should respect that!" :QQ:

If the government goes into this, that just means either a $0.05/L raise in the gas tax, or an extra $200/year for property owners of BC. Either way were getting screwed. And the aftermath of that will be, the people of this province crying that we are paying more money on either gas or property tax..

This whole thing is just a huge fucking :facepalm: now.. BCTF needs to drop some of their bullshit demands for more money in their pockets.

[GLOW]

If the government goes into this, that just means either a $0.05/L raise in the gas tax, or an extra $200/year for property owners of BC. Either way were getting screwed. And the aftermath of that will be, the people of this province crying that we are paying more money on either gas or property tax..


don't worry bro, if they get a raise they can afford the tax :troll:

[gars]

I wonder if they raise the property tax - are people who are renting out properties able to increase their rent right away? Right now they're limited to x% raise a year, but this $200 extra tax can't be factored in.

[Traum]

Now all I'm going to hear on the news is... "The government isn't fair. we had a vote and the government should respect that!" :QQ:

If the government goes into this, that just means either a $0.05/L raise in the gas tax, or an extra $200/year for property owners of BC. Either way were getting screwed. And the aftermath of that will be, the people of this province crying that we are paying more money on either gas or property tax..

This whole thing is just a huge fucking :facepalm: now.. BCTF needs to drop some of their bullshit demands for more money in their pockets.
Dude, you're falling into the trap that Crusty Cunt is setting up. The problem isn't whether the province has the money to afford the class size and composition ruling from the Supreme Court. The problem is Crusty doesn't want to dedicated more money to public education.

de Jong already said that the province is running a larger revenue surplus than they had forecasted. And yet Crusty is telling you the public education funding needs cannot be done without raising taxes?

I call that lying cunt utter BS.

[6o4__boi]

lol i'm pretty sure those tax increase numbers that De Jong was throwing out are worst-case numbers, you know those type of numbers they isolate from stats and throw out to the public in hopes of a reaction

i kinda lol'd when I saw those numbers...it was more of a scare tactic than anything

[Lomac]

I don't understand the logic of the BCTF voting for binding arbitration when the government has already said they have no intentions of agreeing to it. Seems like nothing more than a waste of time and a cheap jab at the government.

[Timpo]

Dude, you're falling into the trap that Crusty Cunt is setting up. The problem isn't whether the province has the money to afford the class size and composition ruling from the Supreme Court. The problem is Crusty doesn't want to dedicated more money to public education.

de Jong already said that the province is running a larger revenue surplus than they had forecasted. And yet Crusty is telling you the public education funding needs cannot be done without raising taxes?

I call that lying cunt utter BS.

well at least she raised the speed limit

[Frenchie]

I don't understand the logic of the BCTF voting for binding arbitration when the government has already said they have no intentions of agreeing to it. Seems like nothing more than a waste of time and a cheap jab at the government.

This is exactly what it is. A few weeks ago, Fassbender was calling for the union to take a vote with the members to return to work. His plan was obviously to force the members of the union to vote to show the public that they're not as united as they're made to believe. Teachers want to get back to work, some more than others obviously, but there is no way the teachers should trust the government to go back to work while they work on negotiating a settlement. The teachers would lose any pressure they had on the government.

The BCTF went back to the drawing board and came up with the binding arbitration idea, knowing that the government would never accept, but by getting the members to vote (99.4%!), it's showing the public that the teachers do want to get back to work ASAP...as long as the government goes through binding arbitration. And since they won't accept BA, the public pressure is back on the government.

Still pretty obvious to me that the government is stone walling the teachers, trying to not get schools open until at least October to save whatever money they can on wages and waiting until the court appeal to take place. Anything from now until October is just a show.

[tiger_handheld]

This is exactly what it is. A few weeks ago, Fassbender was calling for the union to take a vote with the members to return to work. His plan was obviously to force the members of the union to vote to show the public that they're not as united as they're made to believe. Teachers want to get back to work, some more than others obviously, but there is no way the teachers should trust the government to go back to work while they work on negotiating a settlement. The teachers would lose any pressure they had on the government.

The BCTF went back to the drawing board and came up with the binding arbitration idea, knowing that the government would never accept, but by getting the members to vote (99.4%!), it's showing the public that the teachers do want to get back to work ASAP...as long as the government goes through binding arbitration. And since they won't accept BA, the public pressure is back on the government.

Still pretty obvious to me that the government is stone walling the teachers, trying to not get schools open until at least October to save whatever money they can on wages and waiting until the court appeal to take place. Anything from now until October is just a show.

What a dumb idea. Wouldn't the union get more "public support" by agreeing to go back to school while negotiating? They can still do rotational strikes until the deal is reached, but at least people will start hating the gov't instead of the teachers. Also, the teachers will show they are really doing it for the kids, by going back to school, but still looking out for their welfare by holding rotational strikes. Not agreeing to do so is just using the kids as pawns..

[Frenchie]

What a dumb idea. Wouldn't the union get more "public support" by agreeing to go back to school while negotiating? They can still do rotational strikes until the deal is reached, but at least people will start hating the gov't instead of the teachers. Also, the teachers will show they are really doing it for the kids, by going back to school, but still looking out for their welfare by holding rotational strikes. Not agreeing to do so is just using the kids as pawns..

The government has screwed the teachers so many times that there's no way the BCTF could ever trust them by going back to work without a contract. Let's say your employer continues to dock your pay, ignores court orders TWICE regarding working conditions that were made in exchange for 0% wage increases. Would you go back to work if they said something along the lines of "don't worry...go back to work and we'll work something out...eventually...maybe...if we feel like it."

Rotational strikes don't accomplish anything in June. No point in going back to them especially if they're on full strike. The government wouldn't be pressured to do anything.

What the public needs to understand is that the teachers ARE doing it for the kids, but it's all in the realm of short term pain for long term gain. The teachers need to hold strong here for future generations of students.

[Tapioca]

Still pretty obvious to me that the government is stone walling the teachers, trying to not get schools open until at least October to save whatever money they can on wages and waiting until the court appeal to take place. Anything from now until October is just a show.

It's pretty obvious the government is trying to break the BCTF. Even if the public is pissed, the Liberals know that the public will largely forget about the strike when the next election rolls around.

This is the strike that broke the camel's back: the public school system is done in this province. Parents who can afford it (or are willing to make sacrifices to), will put their kids in private schools. The public system will be for the poor.

[Graeme S]

Saw this published in the Strait. They may lean left, but...

http://www.straight.com/files/styles/article_main/public/public%20sector%202.png

[carisear]

hum, haven't you guys learned that stats are COMPLETELY useless in politics?

$180,000 * 7.6% x 26 deputy ministers = ~$350,000
$60,000 * 1.1% * 41000 teachers = ~$27,000,000

ZOMG TEACHERS ARE GETTING 76x THE MONEY DEPUTY MINISTERS ARE!!!

yeah, I'm pretty good at useless stats too :P


When it's union vs non-union, no one will ever have their opinion changed by the other side. Each side will see what they want to see, and believe what they want to believe.

[Timpo]

B.C. teachers' strike: Stalled talks point to new solution - British Columbia - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-teachers-strike-stalled-talks-point-to-new-solution-1.2764269)

[Soundy]

What the public needs to understand is that the teachers ARE doing it for the kids, but it's all in the realm of short term pain for long term gain. The teachers need to hold strong here for future generations of students.
What the teachers need to understand is that if they get all their demands, they'll be fucking over the kids in the future with the extra debt it creates.

[Soundy]

It's pretty obvious the government is trying to break the BCTF. Even if the public is pissed, the Liberals know that the public will largely forget about the strike when the next election rolls around.

This is the strike that broke the camel's back: the public school system is done in this province. Parents who can afford it (or are willing to make sacrifices to), will put their kids in private schools. The public system will be for the poor.

I don't get the math that trying to break the union = trying to destroy the public system.

How about the idea that the union has a stranglehold on the public system, and breaking the union is an attempt to save that system from it?

People make the assertion that CC's kid being in private school = "the government" doesn't care about public schools, but there are tons of other parents that make up "the government", most of whom I'd be willing to bet have their kids in the public system.

[Timpo]

B.C. teachers' strike: tensions flare at Vancouver rally - British Columbia - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-teachers-strike-tensions-flare-at-vancouver-rally-1.2765974)

B.C. teachers' strike: tensions flare at Vancouver rally
Group of parents from Richmond crash pro-teachers rally with anti-B.C. Teachers' Federation slogans
CBC News Posted: Sep 14, 2014 11:08 AM PT Last Updated: Sep 14, 2014 2:03 PM PT

http://i.cbc.ca/1.2766069.1410724986!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/original_300/b-c-teachers-strike-anti-union-signs.jpg

A brief melee broke out at a parent, teacher, student pro-union rally at the Vancouver Art Gallery Sunday when it was crashed by a group of parents from Richmond wielding anti-union signs.

The rally, one of three planned today, was organized on Facebook and described as a grassroots, parent-driven rally although it easily attracted as many teachers and labour leaders as it did parents.

Part way through it, a group of parents from Richmond calling themselves the BC Parents Federation crashed the party to deliver an opposing point of view.

"We love teachers," but not the BCTF said one of the signs. "Don't use kids as pawns," said another. "Respect taxpayers. End the strike," said a third.

As the group tried to push its way forward it was met with resistance from the pro-union crowd already there.

"I'm a taxpayer. I'm a teacher. And you want me to give up on your kids? Unbelievable!" said one teacher. "We need help. We don't need someone to fight with."

The conversation degenerated for a few minutes into a pushing, shoving and swearing match, but Vancouver police officers on bicycles managed to keep things calm.

http://i.cbc.ca/1.2766066.1410724956!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/original_620/b-c-teachers-rally-upset-teachers.jpg

B.C. teachers' strike - anti-union signs
A group calling itself the BC Parents' Federation wielding anti-union signs crashed a rally at the Vancouver Art Gallery that included parents, teachers' and union supporters. (CBC)

BC Parents Federation spokesman Tom Tang said his group has just registered as a legal organization."

"We're here to support our children and our teachers but we are against the BCTF which doesn't show any faith in the negotiations," he said."So far our children cannot go back to school two weeks after the regular school days."

Tang said his group held their own rally last week, but wanted to come to the Vancouver rally to show people who they were.

More rallies planned today

Rallies are also planned at Canada Place and at Surrey's Holland Park.

The District Parent Advisory Committee in Surrey is advising parents to contact the parties in the dispute directly including MLAs, the premier, relevant ministers and the B.C. Teachers' Federation.

Bargaining quietly resumed in Richmond this weekend under veteran mediator Vince Ready. A media blackout has been imposed and neither side is commenting on the state of the talks.

Teachers have already voted to end their strike if the government will agree to binding arbitration — a proposal the province initially rejected out-of-hand.

There have also been veiled threats of a legislated end to the strike. Premier Christy Clark said earlier this week she is determined to get a conclusion to the strike before she leaves Oct. 9 on a trade mission to India.

http://i.cbc.ca/1.2766065.1410724940!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/16x9_620/b-c-teachers-rally-angry-protestors.jpg

[Timpo]

I wonder if government will back up and let BCTF win?
https://www.bctf.ca/

https://www.bctf.ca/uploadedImages/Public/features/FINALvote-result.jpg

[tiger_handheld]

B.C. teachers' strike: tensions flare at Vancouver rally - British Columbia - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-teachers-strike-tensions-flare-at-vancouver-rally-1.2765974)


........."We're here to support our children and our teachers but we are against the BCTF which doesn't show any faith in the negotiations," he said."So far our children cannot go back to school two weeks after the regular school days."

.........



It's starting...
called it ..post #636

Public opinion is the greatest pressure of all, no matter what type of government.

[Timpo]

meanwhile at private schools..

looks like they already had their Welcome Back to School Assembly 2 weeks ago, classes have started, living regular school life...

https://www.facebook.com/yoursmus
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Brentwood-College-School/34438070228
https://www.facebook.com/saintmargarets
https://www.facebook.com/shawnigan

[parm104]

meanwhile at private schools..

looks like they already had their Welcome Back to School Assembly 2 weeks ago, classes have started, living regular school life...

https://www.facebook.com/yoursmus
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Brentwood-College-School/34438070228
https://www.facebook.com/saintmargarets
https://www.facebook.com/shawnigan

Why on earth do you keep bring up private schools? It's illogical and inefficient! Of course private schools are up and running, business as usual. Why wouldn't they be? It's a premium service that costs a lot money; one of the many benefits is that it will still be up and running even if the public system is down.

Excellent Facebook stalking skills though...

[capt_slo]

I wonder if government will back up and let BCTF win?
https://www.bctf.ca/

https://www.bctf.ca/uploadedImages/Public/features/FINALvote-result.jpg

I sincerely hope not.

[Soundy]

I wonder if government will back up and let BCTF win?
https://www.bctf.ca/

https://www.bctf.ca/uploadedImages/Public/features/FINALvote-result.jpg

Anyone still not clear that this vote was nothing more than a ploy by the TF to put pressure on the gov't?

TF calls for arbitration.
Gov't declines in no uncertain terms.
TF goes ahead anyway with "no duh" vote on whether members want arbitration.

Wouldn't it have made sense to at least do this vote before even suggesting arbitration?

Oh yeah... we can't have anything making sense here...

[Soundy]

Memo to Iker and Fassbender: this is how negotiations work.

Independence Day Extended Scene - YouTube

[Frenchie]

What the teachers need to understand is that if they get all their demands, they'll be fucking over the kids in the future with the extra debt it creates.

What extra debt? It's up to the government how the education system is to be funded. They are spinning the story by saying that it'll cost each taxpayer $200 extra per year. We all belong to different tax brackets. There are many options to make it fair and to make it work.

The government could increase corporate taxes (which are the lowest in Canada). If they go up by a mere 1%, there will be enough to fund these improvements with extra to spare. This is to return to the education system what shouldn't have been taken away in the first place.

If you give students a shitty education in shitty conditions, you may be inhibiting the potential income that these kids in the future could earn with higher paying jobs. Even with the government spin of $200 extra annually, I doubt that would be throwing all these kids deep into debt when they're adults.

[ScizzMoney]

Take the Child Tax Credit away and increase income tax for people with kids in school and put that money towards the education system.
:whistle:
:ilied:

[Timpo]

ok so, 2 weeks gone, judging by how little to no progress they have made, it's not likely they're gonna solve the problem in next 2 weeks.
They're gonna enter October!

Seems like one of the party has to lose.
There's no win-win situation.

This is getting entertaining to be honest, I'm gonna watch this shit live :Popcorn

[quasi]

^

I'd agree, I never thought when it started it would last this long I figured they would have called back the legislature early and legislated them back already. I did not believe they would come to a resolution on there own without legislation and it looks like it's headed that way, looks like it will end second week of October baring any miracles before then.

[meme405]

Stopped following this closely, but I'm just wondering why I don't see teachers on the corner while I drive to work in the morning anymore?

They used to be there everyday at the beginning of summer.

[GLOW]

they're at the schools i drive by in east van. even more so i think.

[Hondaracer]

Stopped following this closely, but I'm just wondering why I don't see teachers on the corner while I drive to work in the morning anymore?

They used to be there everyday at the beginning of summer.

Once the regular school year was over teachers ain't hanging around when it's 30 deg out to picket.

Wouldn't doubt it's the same now or they do it in shifts. The highschool right next to my house rarely has more than 6-8 teachers there when there's probably 40+ who work there.

[parm104]

ok so, 2 weeks gone, judging by how little to no progress they have made, it's not likely they're gonna solve the problem in next 2 weeks.
They're gonna enter October!

Seems like one of the party has to lose.
There's no win-win situation.

This is getting entertaining to be honest, I'm gonna watch this shit live :Popcorn

Is this going off on all your experience of negotiating? lol I wait for the day that you say something of value.

[PeanutButter]

I talked to a few teachers and they have no idea what is going on.
The BCTF doesn't tell them anything.

I am really curious to know what the BCTF wants and what the government is willing to give, but the teachers themselves have no idea.

If I were a teacher, I would get a new BCTF.

[meme405]

Once the regular school year was over teachers ain't hanging around when it's 30 deg out to picket.

Wouldn't doubt it's the same now or they do it in shifts. The highschool right next to my house rarely has more than 6-8 teachers there when there's probably 40+ who work there.

Well I know why they weren't there in the summer, but its september now, they should be back on the line now... The two schools I drive by on my way to work have nobody at them.

Also I really don't understand this "shift" Pickiting. When the Union responsible for the mine workers at the job site I was at conducted a full scale strike. All 250 employees scheduled to work would come and walk the line at their regular hours, that meant that night shift employees were there walking the line from 7PM, until 5am. They were there on weekends and holidays as well just like they would have been has they been working.

This strike just seems so fucking lazy. You want us to take you seriously, show some fucking solidarity and walk the walk.

Right now if I was the government I wouldn't be taking the union seriously either, I mean it looks like half the teachers would leave the union if they could just get back to work...

Also keep in mind that the job site was up north, and the strike was in late november, early december, meaning that those night workers were striking in -20 degree weather, and in snow & freezing rain.

[GLOW]

If I were a teacher, I would get a new BCTF.

is that even an option or possible?

[Traum]

When I go to work in the morning, I pass through Vancouver, Burnaby, and New Westminster. Every school I pass by always has staff picketing outside. Every time I pass, I honk to give them my support.

For those who are not familiar with the extent to which the cost cutting measures are hurting our public education system, please take a look at this. I recently came across the following Twitter image from a Port Coquitlam principle:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxRR_6yIEAEz8Ck.jpg

The screen shot is an e-mail a Port Coquitlam principal has sent to the parents of his school explaining how resources have dwindled in the 12 years he has served at his school. His budget for learning resources (books, desks, and the like) has dropped from $181,000 (2002) to $23,000 (2014), an 88% drop over 12 years. The principal tells parents that teachers are working harder than ever to deliver the same quality of education their students rightfully deserve.

To those of you who run a business, how do you expect your business to operate with a 88% reduction in operating budget? To those of you who run your own household budgets, how do you provide for your family and raise your children if you face an 88% less money coming in?

If you think the BC government is doing the right thing today by refusing to cough up more education funding (in the name of "we can't afford it without raising taxes"), please continue to support them.

[4444]

^ prove that these are "facts"

Anyone (especially those with a vested interest in changing hearts and minds) can write an email.

Don't be so easily fooled

[4444]

I talked to a few teachers and they have no idea what is going on.
The BCTF doesn't tell them anything.

I am really curious to know what the BCTF wants and what the government is willing to give, but the teachers themselves have no idea.

If I were a teacher, I would get a new BCTF.

Bctf does a crap job representing And supporting their members

Not saying the government is any better, but if I were a member of the bctf, I'd look for a new profession

[GLOW]

was that a reasonable operating budget for the school in 2002? too much or too little?
was it adjusted to meet actual operating costs?
and what were their actual costs?
just asking as I have no idea.

[Traum]

^ prove that these are "facts"

Anyone (especially those with a vested interest in changing hearts and minds) can write an email.

Don't be so easily fooled
You can certainly choose to be skeptical. As a matter of fact, you can continue to believe anything you want. But if you think school's operating budgets have not been continually cut back over the past decade or so under the BC Liberals' rule, you are simply refusing to accept the truth.

Support staff getting cut. School libraries opening only every other day (or less) instead of remaining open every single day. Class sizes getting larger. More special needs students getting dumped into regular classes. I don't need to tell you whether they are true facts or fabricated lies. You are free to believe whatever you want to believe.

[meme405]

More special needs students getting dumped into regular classes.

We should also talk about how much higher the percentage of "special needs" students there are.

Now with ADHD, and all these other supposed forms of learning disabilities and impediments. It seems that half our fucking kids are retarded according to teachers.

The best is "Anxiety disorder" - im pretty sure that can just be renamed to "teenager"

[4444]

You can certainly choose to be skeptical. As a matter of fact, you can continue to believe anything you want. But if you think school's operating budgets have not been continually cut back over the past decade or so under the BC Liberals' rule, you are simply refusing to accept the truth.

Support staff getting cut. School libraries opening only every other day (or less) instead of remaining open every single day. Class sizes getting larger. More special needs students getting dumped into regular classes. I don't need to tell you whether they are true facts or fabricated lies. You are free to believe whatever you want to believe.

I don't doubt some of those are in fact true, but you are merely providing rhetoric. Without proof, u are no better than someone that fabricates stories.

I don't like special needs kids not getting the help they need, nor that kids do not have everything they need to most effectively learn, but without independent findings, we're just throwing shit at one another.

Again, I do not support either side, but I will not blindly believe something just bc it is put infront of me, as you clearly are.

Informed decisions are the most valuable decisions.

[parm104]

You can certainly choose to be skeptical. As a matter of fact, you can continue to believe anything you want. But if you think school's operating budgets have not been continually cut back over the past decade or so under the BC Liberals' rule, you are simply refusing to accept the truth.

Support staff getting cut. School libraries opening only every other day (or less) instead of remaining open every single day. Class sizes getting larger. More special needs students getting dumped into regular classes. I don't need to tell you whether they are true facts or fabricated lies. You are free to believe whatever you want to believe.

He's not saying that the budgets have not been cut but we should treat all this public media non-sense as propaganda. You dropped numbers decreasing the budgets from $100,000's of thousands of dollars and he's saying let's look at real statistics rather than media props sent out to the public to gain support.

[Traum]

I don't doubt some of those are in fact true, but you are merely providing rhetoric. Without proof, u are no better than someone that fabricates stories.

I don't like special needs kids not getting the help they need, nor that kids do not have everything they need to most effectively learn, but without independent findings, we're just throwing shit at one another.

Again, I do not support either side, but I will not blindly believe something just bc it is put infront of me, as you clearly are.

Informed decisions are the most valuable decisions.
In that case, I strongly recommend you to actually sit down and talk to a school administrator or front line teacher to see what kind of impacts the reduced education budget has done to the schools. I have done that myself; I have seen the impact the reduced budgets have caused, and I have very little reason to question the validity of those claims.

[quasi]

He's not saying that the budgets have not been cut but we should treat all this public media non-sense as propaganda. You dropped numbers decreasing the budgets from $100,000's of thousands of dollars and he's saying let's look at real statistics rather than media props sent out to the public to gain support.

Don't be absurd, it's only the Government that releases partial or one sided biased statistics and numbers to further there agenda.

:ilied:

[rb]

Who hands out those school budgets? the school district? If its the district, then that joke of budget for the school in Poco doesn't surprise me as its SD43. They aren't exactly the best when it comes with handling money.

SD43 audit released, but not the full version - News - Coquitlam Now (http://www.thenownews.com/news/sd43-audit-released-but-not-the-full-version-1.792671)

[meme405]

In that case, I strongly recommend you to actually sit down and talk to a school administrator or front line teacher to see what kind of impacts the reduced education budget has done to the schools. I have done that myself; I have seen the impact the reduced budgets have caused, and I have very little reason to question the validity of those claims.

again you would be talking to someone who has a vested interest in the outcome of these negotiations. Looking at this from a factual and statistical standpoint is the only way to make sense of the situation.

If I was in negotiations with my employer (if I wasn't my own employer), I would never tell them "Oh no, my department has absolutely everything they need to be successful, extra money won't make us any better at all".

[Frenchie]

Who hands out those school budgets? the school district? If its the district, then that joke of budget for the school in Poco doesn't surprise me as its SD43. They aren't exactly the best when it comes with handling money.

SD43 audit released, but not the full version - News - Coquitlam Now (http://www.thenownews.com/news/sd43-audit-released-but-not-the-full-version-1.792671)

The government gives districts money, and it's up to the districts to balance their budgets using the money coming from the government.

[4444]

In that case, I strongly recommend you to actually sit down and talk to a school administrator or front line teacher to see what kind of impacts the reduced education budget has done to the schools. I have done that myself; I have seen the impact the reduced budgets have caused, and I have very little reason to question the validity of those claims.

U will get an emotion driven rant as they try to pull ur heart strings.

U clearly have a pro teacher agenda, I have a pro facts agenda. We facts people can, and will, make their own conclusions. That is democracy.

[7seven]

Who hands out those school budgets? the school district? If its the district, then that joke of budget for the school in Poco doesn't surprise me as its SD43. They aren't exactly the best when it comes with handling money.

SD43 audit released, but not the full version - News - Coquitlam Now (http://www.thenownews.com/news/sd43-audit-released-but-not-the-full-version-1.792671)

Seems to be a bunch of issues in SD43, where apparently that principal who wrote that email is in. They need to allocate their operational budget better and get their staffing and salary issues under control as indicated by KPMG after the audit.

SD43 budget presentation from this April http://www.sd43.bc.ca/budget/Documents/Budget%202014-15FinancialPresentationApril15.pdf, some key points that jumped out at me from this are:
1) 68 schools + unknown small number of alternative schools in SD43. Operating budget of $270 million. Overall declining enrollment
2) funding levels have kept pace with inflation
3) 91% of the operating budget is spent on salary and related benefits costs
4) Only 8.88% of the budget is spent on supplies and services
5) funding has not increased from last year and remains frozen
6) while funding has not increased, costs have.
7) Cost of program needs are $1,127,078 million, this includes supplies, classroom equipment, educational assistants for special needs students.
8) Costs of increase in teacher's salaries and benefits are $1,350,000
9) Costs of increase in CUPE wage increase, benefits are $991,000
10) Costs of employee future benefits plan increase are $700,000
11) Costs increase of utilities (hydo/Fortis) are $625,000

While I still side with the Provincial Government in this dispute, I do think they need to allocate more funding to keep pace with inflation and rising utilities costs. Funding to be spent on supplies, equipment and sports/music programs needs to increase as well. In this area, the Government is falling short on. However does it not strike anyone as ridiculous, especially in times of declining enrollments, over supply of teachers available and economic/budgetary constraints, that 91% of the budget is used on wages, benefits and salary increases, yes, along with administrators, teachers do get raises as they work their way through the grid despite that bs they keep yelling about no raises.

[4444]

Now, I don't actually care about this other than the moral issue about education, but:

What has been the average real pay raise, per scale, been over the last 20 years. If negative,that's wrong, it should be zero. Purchasing power should be maintained, nothing more.

Teachers go up the scale and get pay raises that way. Why anyone thinks they deserve a real pay raise for doing no more work is beyond me.

Earn ur pay raises, don't just expect them bc ur 1 yr older (experience raises come with scale bumps)

[hchang]

Now, I don't actually care about this other than the moral issue about education, but:

What has been the average real pay raise, per scale, been over the last 20 years. If negative,that's wrong, it should be zero. Purchasing power should be maintained, nothing more.

Teachers go up the scale and get pay raises that way. Why anyone thinks they deserve a real pay raise for doing no more work is beyond me.

Earn ur pay raises, don't just expect them bc ur 1 yr older (experience raises come with scale bumps)

I agree with you 100% but unfortunately That's just how unioned "government" workers work.

[tiger_handheld]

What extra debt? It's up to the government how the education system is to be funded. They are spinning the story by saying that it'll cost each taxpayer $200 extra per year. We all belong to different tax brackets. There are many options to make it fair and to make it work.

The government could increase corporate taxes (which are the lowest in Canada). If they go up by a mere 1%, there will be enough to fund these improvements with extra to spare. This is to return to the education system what shouldn't have been taken away in the first place.

If you give students a shitty education in shitty conditions, you may be inhibiting the potential income that these kids in the future could earn with higher paying jobs. Even with the government spin of $200 extra annually, I doubt that would be throwing all these kids deep into debt when they're adults.

That is a really dumb idea.

Lets presume you work for Hoot Suite who is in Vancouver.

Hootsuite(HS) is in BC and not some other province because BC has the lowest Corp tax rate. HS employees 5000 people and new grads.

Premire Frenchie increases corporate taxes by mere 1%. HS makes Billions in profit. HS says, "hey why are we paying so much taxes in BC, lets move to another province so we don't pay extra taxes, which will leave us enough money for our own bonuses, improvements, developments etc.".

HS proceeds to relocate their business to said province, leaving 5000 people unemployed. Leaving the gastown economy in shambles as a result of trickle down effect on the local resturants, couriers, and other vendors. There is now also empty space in the building, who else is going to rent out the 2 buildings HS currently occupies.

Computer Science grads are now jobless making it for an even more competitive market place. Some choose to battle it out, some choose to move to another province, country to get work.

K-7 kids, are not impacted as they are too young still. 8-10kids are still in the party phase and care a little bit. 11-4th year students are up the creek because, they know they will have even more competition trying to get a job.

So by increasing corporate taxes by a mere 1% what have you accomplished?

- drive out big employers
- shut down local businesses that rely on big employers in the neighbourhood
- drive out new grads to other cities due to lack of jobs in BC
- force sr. year students to re-locate to other schools due to possibility of better job prospects.
- Keep this up and the young families will soon move to other places as well for better jobs, leading to a decrease in K-12 enrollment in BC.

As much as people hate corporations, they make our economies run. We should never slap the hand that feeds us.

For what it's worth, I like how you said lets tax corporations and not "i'm ok with paying $200 a year" ... your suggestion goes to show that you can't put money where your plans are..

[Lomac]

^ Welcome to the BC film industry. The government declined to match tax incentives of other provinces and states, so much of the once vaunted film industry here has declined to less than a third of what it once was a few years ago.

[Timpo]

We should also talk about how much higher the percentage of "special needs" students there are.

Now with ADHD, and all these other supposed forms of learning disabilities and impediments. It seems that half our fucking kids are retarded according to teachers.

The best is "Anxiety disorder" - im pretty sure that can just be renamed to "teenager"
This is so true.

Watch this, for your own sake and someone you care.
As a human being, it is NORMAL to feel nervous, have different personality, be shy, be arrogant, anything.

We are labeling kids as "______ disorder" and it's getting ridiculous.

I know it's more than an hour video, but well worth your time.

The DSM: Psychiatry's Deadliest Scam - YouTube

[Jmac]

Taxing corporations is beyond stupid.

Every person they employ pays taxes; every item they purchase is taxed; every service they provide is taxed.

Just make sure they're actually hiring Canadians.

[Timpo]

I have a basic question, how does strike work? :suspicious:

Let's say I work at Mcdonald's, I'm unhappy with my minimum wage. So I tell my boss that I'm on strike. I'm sure the boss will tell me to STFU and he/she will find a replacement.

Same goes with a lot of other work places. If you're not happy with your wage and refuse to work? You are probably gonna get fired.
It doesn't matter if it's a restaurant, flower shop, bakery, bicycle shop, fitness gym, landscaping job, Subway, etc.

Now I'm wondering if teachers push hard and long enough, do you think the BC Government will eventually tell them to STFU and start finding replacements?
Let's face it, there are so many people out there who want to get a teaching/administrative positions, I don't imagine BC Government having a hard time finding replacements. The positions will fill up relatively quickly.

I know this is union thing and it's not McDonald's, however they can't do this forever. Just because they extend the strike, doesn't mean BC government will eventually agree to give them what they want.

[Soundy]

What extra debt? It's up to the government how the education system is to be funded. They are spinning the story by saying that it'll cost each taxpayer $200 extra per year.
Iker stood up and stated that giving the BCTF *all* their demands would amount to a mere $3 extra per student per day. Wow, Jim, that doesn't sound like much at all, that's a pretty screamin' deal! Hell, BC taxpayers should have no problem footing that!

Until you calculate that there are about 559,000 students waiting to be enrolled in our public schools (that's the 2013/14 number). So that's an extra $1.677M. PER DAY. You care to do the math for how much that totals over an ~200 day school year, or shall I? Now care to extrapolate that over the life of the next contract (say 4-5 years)? How about over the life of EVERY student from here on out, since you KNOW once the next contract comes around, there's no way the TF is conceding anything they get this time around.

Oh, but it's ONLY $3 per student per day... ONLY.

:ilied:

[meme405]

Taxing corporations is beyond stupid.

Every person they employ pays taxes; every item they purchase is taxed; every service they provide is taxed.

Just make sure they're actually hiring Canadians.

Hold on, I get where you and others are going with this, but corporate tax is 100% necessary.

An incorporated company is a separate entity from it's stakeholders financially and legally speaking, this company has its own accounts, investments, etc. That's how corporations differ from partnerships, and a sole proprietorship.

Most companies don't leave too much money inside the actual corporation, as that eliminates the benefits offered by the corporate veil (spoilered these benefits for continuity), but the fact that money CAN remain inside the companies accounts for long periods of time is why corporate tax is so important. Without it many companies could just store billions of dollars inside the actual corporation for long periods without ever paying the necessary taxes on that money. This could slow an economy to a fucking crawl and cripple a government, be very aware of the fact that money moving from one place to another is what keeps our world economy moving, freeze a large amount of this money for even a few days, and you could potentially create a bigger panic then what happened in 2008-2009.

All of this goes really off topic, but my general point is that while raising corporate tax is pretty stupid. Having some form of implementation is completely necessary, the amount of corporate tax is governed by the level in other markets which influence ours, and compete with us.

The corporate veil is what protects executives, shareholders, and people who work at a company from facing financial ruin personally if the company goes bankrupt.

Since the company is its own entity, people at the company are protected from having their money taken away in the case of financial trouble.

Now of course nefarious activity like lying, and illegal shit can lead to cases where the corporate veil can be "pierced", but in the general sense corporations provide a safe way for owners of a company to shelter themselves from potential financial instability of their company.

[Frenchie]

That is a really dumb idea.

Lets presume you work for Hoot Suite who is in Vancouver.

Hootsuite(HS) is in BC and not some other province because BC has the lowest Corp tax rate. HS employees 5000 people and new grads.

Premire Frenchie increases corporate taxes by mere 1%. HS makes Billions in profit. HS says, "hey why are we paying so much taxes in BC, lets move to another province so we don't pay extra taxes, which will leave us enough money for our own bonuses, improvements, developments etc.".

HS proceeds to relocate their business to said province, leaving 5000 people unemployed. Leaving the gastown economy in shambles as a result of trickle down effect on the local resturants, couriers, and other vendors. There is now also empty space in the building, who else is going to rent out the 2 buildings HS currently occupies.

Computer Science grads are now jobless making it for an even more competitive market place. Some choose to battle it out, some choose to move to another province, country to get work.

K-7 kids, are not impacted as they are too young still. 8-10kids are still in the party phase and care a little bit. 11-4th year students are up the creek because, they know they will have even more competition trying to get a job.

So by increasing corporate taxes by a mere 1% what have you accomplished?

- drive out big employers
- shut down local businesses that rely on big employers in the neighbourhood
- drive out new grads to other cities due to lack of jobs in BC
- force sr. year students to re-locate to other schools due to possibility of better job prospects.
- Keep this up and the young families will soon move to other places as well for better jobs, leading to a decrease in K-12 enrollment in BC.

As much as people hate corporations, they make our economies run. We should never slap the hand that feeds us.

For what it's worth, I like how you said lets tax corporations and not "i'm ok with paying $200 a year" ... your suggestion goes to show that you can't put money where your plans are..

Just because I didn't type the exact words, "I'm ok with paying $200 a year" in my post doesn't mean I wouldn't. I'm ready and willing to do it.

I also said that the government COULD raise corporate taxes. I used an example of 1%. Doesn't mean that they will. My point is that these extra costs that the government is saying that they'll need to fund should they give what the teachers want can come from a combination of a variety of places.

If BC has the lowest corporate tax rate in the country, they COULD raise taxes to within a percentage point of the 2nd lowest province (I don't know what the figures are but I hope you understand what I mean) and still retain many businesses and corporations. That being said, again, it's just an option.

[Frenchie]

Iker stood up and stated that giving the BCTF *all* their demands would amount to a mere $3 extra per student per day. Wow, Jim, that doesn't sound like much at all, that's a pretty screamin' deal! Hell, BC taxpayers should have no problem footing that!

Until you calculate that there are about 559,000 students waiting to be enrolled in our public schools (that's the 2013/14 number). So that's an extra $1.677M. PER DAY. You care to do the math for how much that totals over an ~200 day school year, or shall I? Now care to extrapolate that over the life of the next contract (say 4-5 years)? How about over the life of EVERY student from here on out, since you KNOW once the next contract comes around, there's no way the TF is conceding anything they get this time around.

Oh, but it's ONLY $3 per student per day... ONLY.

:ilied:

OR they can take all the savings from teachers' salaries during the strike and give parents with kids $40 per day for "childcare", amounting to over $1M a day?

If they took that money and put it back into the education system, we wouldn't be arguing about where the money should be coming from. The teachers would be paying their own raises! But nope...we're talking about $200/year of increased taxes.

[twitchyzero]

I feel for the grade 12 students applying for competitive undergrad programs at UBC/SFU and back East.

I recall feeling pretty pressured in the last year of high school..and that's with summer school meaning I had a lighter course load in the academic year.

These guys have to face a shortened timeframe, no summer school to alleviate the pressure and to top it off the ever-increasing academic averages last i check was what, low 90%'s average?

May be they'll default to college, which is probably easier and possibly better for the majority in the long run.

Funny article title but these 'overachievers' have a good point.
Angry Grade 12 student says young voters-to-be will remember ?who?s behind this? strike (http://www.theprovince.com/Angry+Grade+student+says+young+voters+will+remembe r+behind+this+strike/10203070/story.html)

[StylinRed]

some sort of deal may be in place (news1130 breaking news)

https://twitter.com/News1130radio/status/511837099822440449

[N.V.M.]

some sort of deal may be in place (news1130 breaking news)

https://twitter.com/News1130radio/status/511837099822440449

a deal's been made, but it'll take a couple days to sort out the language in the contract, and of course the teachers have to vote on it to accept the deal or not.

[quasi]

Great news, get these kids back in the classroom and let the Teachers do there job.

[parm104]

ok so, 2 weeks gone, judging by how little to no progress they have made, it's not likely they're gonna solve the problem in next 2 weeks.
They're gonna enter October!

Seems like one of the party has to lose.
There's no win-win situation.

This is getting entertaining to be honest, I'm gonna watch this shit live :Popcorn

^ This Expert...

http://globalnews.ca/news/1564466/bc-teachers-strike-deal-reached-between-bctf-and-government/

[4444]

some sort of deal may be in place (news1130 breaking news)

https://twitter.com/News1130radio/status/511837099822440449

i'm banking on this deal being more on the side of the government.

BCTF showed their true colours, and they were shit, teachers will probably lose out on whatever deal has been reached.

unions don't usually win. mind you, i'm sure the liberal/crust clark approval is down the drain too.

the true losers, the kiddies

[GLOW]

what recourse do teachers have to have better representation next time? if bctf shit the bed are teachers SOL and stuck with them or can they seek better representation somehow?

[Soundy]

OR they can take all the savings from teachers' salaries during the strike and give parents with kids $40 per day for "childcare", amounting to over $1M a day?

For a couple weeks... not for the next 20 years.

[Soundy]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxqNipSCAAA-M0t.jpg:large

[6o4__boi]

i'm banking on this deal being more on the side of the government.

BCTF showed their true colours, and they were shit, teachers will probably lose out on whatever deal has been reached.

unions don't usually win. mind you, i'm sure the liberal/crust clark approval is down the drain too.

the true losers, the kiddies


lol yeah i'm pretty sure it was
I remember watching the news this morning and seeing Peter Cameron and his crew pounding back beers and wine at the conference room. He sounded pretty happy on his initial interview too.

I think at this rate, teachers will ratify whatever deal is placed in front of them. Not having a paycheque the last little while and lost out on summer school pay :heckno:

[quasi]

what recourse do teachers have to have better representation next time? if bctf shit the bed are teachers SOL and stuck with them or can they seek better representation somehow?

My Aunt is very involved with Union's in Sask. and from what she told me it's very difficult to achieve desertification. You would need a huge majority of the Teachers voting together I doubt you would be able to achieve that because many are quite content with the BCTF as there representation.

Anything is possible but it's highly unlikely. Now that a settlement has been reached (tentatively) and once the teachers are back at work the Union representation and these negotiations will be in the past and thinking about representation for the next contract is the last thing on their minds.

In short, not going to happen.

[murd0c]

Watch the teacher's reject it and start crying about how they are still hard done by and they are still doing it for the kids...

[Spoon]

So smaller classes and special needs is getting thrown out of their contracts now? Thought they were waiting for a judge to rule on that still.

[Traum]

So smaller classes and special needs is getting thrown out of their contracts now? Thought they were waiting for a judge to rule on that still.
Where are you reading that from? As far as I can tell given the information that is available to the public now, no details regarding the deal has been released, other than the fact that a tentative agreement has been reached, and the BCTF members (ie. the teachers) will vote on it on Thursday.

[Gumby]

My guess is that BCPSEA and BCTF reached an agreement on wages & benefits. The smaller classes and special needs issue will continue to be discussed.

[Soundy]

CKNW @CKNW
Maple Ridge parent says they have non-instructional days set for the 22nd & 23rd. #bctf @bced #bcpoli

CKNW @CKNW
.@Surrey_Schools has Pro-D day set for Monday. Spokesperson says so far, that is going ahead despite tentative #bced deal. #surreybc

:rukidding:

Thanks for the new contract, guys! Now we can get back to work just in time to take some days off!

:facepalm:

[Traum]

My guess is that BCPSEA and BCTF reached an agreement on wages & benefits. The smaller classes and special needs issue will continue to be discussed.
And BCTF's preference for this will continue to leave it up to the law courts since they have received 2 very strong rulings in their favour. The Liberals government will continue to tout that unaffordable scare tactic in attempt to sway public opinion, and should they find themselves losing out again at the court, they will very likely enact new legislation to follow through on their "promise" to increase taxes to fund the court ruling.

:failed:

[6o4__boi]

:rukidding:

Thanks for the new contract, guys! Now we can get back to work just in time to take some days off!

:facepalm:


do you really think pro d days are just days off? You're pretty stupid if you think they're just "day offs" for teachers.

With all the shit that's going on they would probably go ahead with the pro d days just for time to set up and get up to speed, unless of course they let teachers in over the weekend to set up classrooms.

i'd fail this shit 10 more times if i could...some people are just so fucking clueless.

[6o4__boi]

also, inb4 someone uses sarcasm as an excuse for utter ignorance.

[Soundy]

do you really think pro d days are just days off? You're pretty stupid if you think they're just "day offs" for teachers.
But... but... IT'S ALL ABOUT THE KIDS! They've just missed the first 2+ weeks of school, so what's another day right off the top, eh?

[Liquid_o2]

My sister is a teacher and trust me, Pro-D days are anything but a day off for the teachers. Usually a 10 hour work day for her.

[Soundy]

My sister is a teacher and trust me, Pro-D days are anything but a day off for the teachers. Usually a 10 hour work day for her.

But... but... IT'S ALL ABOUT THE KIDS! They've just missed the first 2+ weeks of school, so what's another day right off the top, eh?

[freakshow]

^ It's a good point.. do they really need a pro-d day when the kids have already missed so much?

However, to make it sound like a 'day off' is very wrong.. They're there as long, if not longer than a regular instruction day.

[quasi]

^ It's a good point.. do they really need a pro-d day when the kids have already missed so much?

However, to make it sound like a 'day off' is very wrong.. They're there as long, if not longer than a regular instruction day.

This, the Optics are really bad regardless what typically gets done or doesn't get done on a Pro D day. It is what it is at this point I can just laugh. If they get it all setup that's good, I'm sure every teacher will be at work on Monday getting ready for the new school year.

[shenmecar]

But... but... IT'S ALL ABOUT THE KIDS! They've just missed the first 2+ weeks of school, so what's another day right off the top, eh?

Quit rustling people's jimmies.

[Frenchie]

A bunch of districts with pro-d days scheduled for either Friday or Monday have had them postponed or cancelled (Maple Ridge, Pitt Meadows, North Vancouver as of right now).

[hotjoint]

Finally, wonder if the kids will be back Monday or Tuesday.

[tiger_handheld]

7.25% over the 6yr term
$400mil for new teacher hiring fund
$108mil signing bonus/grievances

So class size issues were dropped until court case.

So at the end of the day, what was this really about? Definitely not the kids, since it's still in the courts..

[Timpo]

Finally, wonder if the kids will be back Monday or Tuesday.

is it confirmed? if so, why do they call it "tentative" deal? :suspicious:

[hotjoint]

is it confirmed? if so, why do they call it "tentative" deal? :suspicious:

No it's not confirmed but when they had the teachers vote last week, it was 99% that they wanted to go back to work. They're just waiting for the teachers to vote on Thursday. Don't see why it wouldn't be a unanimous vote again. There's a pro d day on Monday but some schools have already cancelled or postponed theirs. Would love for all schools to follow suit and have the kids back in on Monday.

[Timpo]

7.25% over the 6yr term
$400mil for new teacher hiring fund
$108mil signing bonus/grievances

So class size issues were dropped until court case.

So at the end of the day, what was this really about? Definitely not the kids, since it's still in the courts..
as Mr. Kevin O'Leary always tells us, it's all about the money

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_2xbMBuB70g/Uk5FwpJss9I/AAAAAAAAAlY/4MA9U3KhfGs/s1600/oleary+2-640x348.jpg

[acrophobia]

7.25% over the 6yr term
$400mil for new teacher hiring fund
$108mil signing bonus/grievances

So class size issues were dropped until court case.

So at the end of the day, what was this really about? Definitely not the kids, since it's still in the courts..

Benefits for me (a teacher): a small salary increase that will not make up for the ~$9000 I lost during the strike (my wife is a teacher also, so my household lost ~$18000), I can quit my $13/hour manual labour job that I've been working for the past month just to have some money coming in ;)
Benefits for students: more teachers/specialists to reduce class size and increase the diversity of programming available, the government backing off from it's intentions of ignoring previously bargained class size/composition.

No one wins and of course the students have lost the most in 5 weeks of schooling, but don't tell me that this was all about more money for me. The only silver lining I can find in this whole mess is that kids (including mine) will now have a better experience in school than if we hadn't been on strike.

Never have I been so pumped to get back to work! :)

[Timpo]

No it's not confirmed but when they had the teachers vote last week, it was 99% that they wanted to go back to work. They're just waiting for the teachers to vote on Thursday. Don't see why it wouldn't be a unanimous vote again. There's a pro d day on Monday but some schools have already cancelled or postponed theirs. Would love for all schools to follow suit and have the kids back in on Monday.

ok so from how you explain it, it sounds like it is confirmed that strike is over, they just don't know if they're gonna reopen school on Monday or Tuesday?

[Timpo]

Never have I been so pumped to get back to work! :)

so the strike is officially over?

[meme405]

Lol Timpo just really wants to get back to school.

There was such high hopes for him to pass grade 5 this year...

[Timpo]

Lol Timpo just really wants to get back to school.

There was such high hopes for him to pass grade 5 this year...

:ohgodwhy:

[N.V.M.]

Great news, get these kids back in the classroom and let the Teachers do there job.

There job, eh?

[SpeedStars]

"Fed Up" (Support the BCTF Protest Rap / Iggy Azalea "Fancy" Parody) - YouTube

[Timpo]

There job, eh?

he probably meant "their" job

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/da/da1b3e48f5f88ffe9d8b8274d799f5c8d26f28d4469c212be4 e40f255d58b977.jpg

[Timpo]

"Fed Up" (Support the BCTF Protest Rap / Iggy Azalea "Fancy" Parody) - YouTube (http://youtu.be/VI-B-AJ0q2o)

http://chan.catiewayne.com/z/src/130454179838.jpg

[shenmecar]

he probably meant "their" job


http://stickerish.com/wp-content/themes/mio/sp-framework/timthumb/timthumb.php?src=http://stickerish.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/YouDontSayBlackWithTextSS.png&h=500&w=500&zc=2&q=100&a=c&s=&f=&cc=&ct=

[hotjoint]

ok so from how you explain it, it sounds like it is confirmed that strike is over, they just don't know if they're gonna reopen school on Monday or Tuesday?

Yeah pretty much from my understanding.

[Timpo]

Yeah pretty much from my understanding.

oh shit!! summer break is finally over. :eek:

Fucking homework, poor kids
http://workitmom.com/bloggers/thesamebutdifferent/files/2014/04/homeworkfrustration.jpeg

[GLOW]

as Mr. Kevin O'Leary always tells us, it's all about the money

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_2xbMBuB70g/Uk5FwpJss9I/AAAAAAAAAlY/4MA9U3KhfGs/s1600/oleary+2-640x348.jpg

i may be dating myself because when i saw your post i was thinking...
http://img1.ak.crunchyroll.com/i/spire2/986ce1891575a66bafe91a51cfdbb4881342045577_full.jp g

or nelly's ride with me :lol

[4444]

Benefits for me (a teacher): a small salary increase that will not make up for the ~$9000 I lost during the strike (my wife is a teacher also, so my household lost ~$18000), I can quit my $13/hour manual labour job that I've been working for the past month just to have some money coming in ;)
Benefits for students: more teachers/specialists to reduce class size and increase the diversity of programming available, the government backing off from it's intentions of ignoring previously bargained class size/composition.

No one wins and of course the students have lost the most in 5 weeks of schooling, but don't tell me that this was all about more money for me. The only silver lining I can find in this whole mess is that kids (including mine) will now have a better experience in school than if we hadn't been on strike.

Never have I been so pumped to get back to work! :)

serious question - how do you feel about your union and how they acted in this?

do you think that inbred hillbilly of a leader of yours is worth a penny of what is likely a material income?

let's not forget, unions are a business, they're not solely there for their members. they're only there for their members insomuch as they can make money from being there for their members.

[Traum]

7.25% over the 6yr term
$400mil for new teacher hiring fund
$108mil signing bonus/grievances

So class size issues were dropped until court case.

So at the end of the day, what was this really about? Definitely not the kids, since it's still in the courts..
acrophobia's reply has already summed it up best -- no one wins out of the job action, but the reason for the job action was definitely not about getting more money for the teachers themselves. Hell, they've lost 5 weeks' worth of salary. How long do you think it'll take for the negotiated pay raise to make up for the money they've lost?

The material thing that counted is, we have some new money getting pumped into the system to hire more new teachers so that class sizes would actually have a chance of dropping back down to levels that have been dictated by the law.

Last but not least, leaving the class size and composition issues for the provincial court to decide is the right thing to do, because that's what civil societies do. When there is a difference in opinion regarding something that is legally binding and private negotiations failed to bridge that gap, a civil society turns to their court system to have the issue resolved. Either (or both) parties may or may not agree with the outcome, but we agree to abide by the verdict, and that's what makes our country different from some 3rd world banana republic.

[xpl0sive]

I'm just happy that the teachers got what they wanted. People may agree or disagree about the way they went about getting it. I applaud them for taking a stand for what they thought was right and getting it done. Too many people in our country are bending over and taking it from the government with constant tax increases, BS fines and levies on everything with the general public getting next to nothing in return.

[snowball]

7.25% over the 6yr term
$400mil for new teacher hiring fund
$108mil signing bonus/grievances

So class size issues were dropped until court case.

So at the end of the day, what was this really about? Definitely not the kids, since it's still in the courts..

For most teachers the amount they lost in the last month will not be made back by the end of the new contract. The lack of money for "hiring new teachers" previously was the reason they had removed limits on class sizes; to accommodate the budget... so I wouldn't say it was "not about the kids"

[freakshow]

Here is the best summary i've seen:
Tentative deal for B.C. teachers means relief and hope - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/tentative-deal-for-bc-teachers-means-relief-and-hope/article20635909/)

Details of the deal:
The deal hammered out to end the five-week school strike in B.C. will be voted on by teachers on Thursday. An acceptance means students could be back in their classes by Monday. Some of the details:

Contract length:
Six years, longer than the usual three or four but well short of the 10-year-deal Premier Christy Clark had promised during last year’s election campaign.

Wages:
A 7.25-per-cent increase over six years. The contract is retroactive to last year.

Signing bonus:
There is none.

Class composition:
An education fund of $100-million to address special-needs students. The union predicts the money will mean several hundred new unionized teaching positions each year.

Grievances:
A $108-million fund to settle union grievances around class size and composition. Two court rulings have found the B.C. Liberals unconstitutionally stripped teachers of their rights to bargain on those matters, opening the government up to grievances. The fund negotiated in this contract will be available regardless of the ultimate outcome of the court battle.

Prep time:
Elementary school teachers will get extra preparation time as a result of the grievance fund.

Court case:
The government’s appeal of the two lower court rulings that concluded it violated teachers rights will continue as scheduled in October. The case is likely to go to the Supreme Court of Canada. The two sides have agreed to a process to address whatever the ultimate court ruling will be.

Upside for teachers:
The strike ends, the union gave up no gains made in previous contracts, and class composition and the grievances are addressed.

Upside for government:
Wage increases are within the range of settlements among other public-sector workers, there is no signing bonus and the savings from the strike mean the government hasn’t put a lot of new money forward. The grievance fund also limits the government’s potential liability if the court ultimately rules in favour of the teachers.

[van_city23]

doesn't it kind of seem like the deal the gov offered before the strike started? I think it's far from what the teachers wanted. Poor leadership does result in a poor deal for the teachers from their perspective. From my perspective, the teachers were asking too much but that's merely a personal opinion. That being said, it's about time kids get back in school.

[meme405]

doesn't it kind of seem like the deal the gov offered before the strike started? I think it's far from what the teachers wanted. Poor leadership does result in a poor deal for the teachers from their perspective. From my perspective, the teachers were asking too much but that's merely a personal opinion. That being said, it's about time kids get back in school.

Yes, because the government won.

The only reason the teachers got half of what they got was because how much wages the government saved during the 5 weeks they didnt pay them.

Had the teachers settled near the end of the school year the government was offering a contract similar in duration to what they signed, with similar percent increase per year, and also a $1000+ Signing bonus. The $108 million would have been slightly lower (i think about $60 million but w/e).

The union lost the support of its members, there was countless interviews with teachers by news shows, papers, and such where teachers many teachers simply said "Fuck it, lets just go back to work". Once that happened the government knew they just had to hold on until the union finally either: A. Collapsed on itself or B. gave up on their outrageous demands.

Flash forward a couple weeks and here we are.

[snowball]

Upside for teachers:
The strike ends, the union gave up no gains made in previous contracts, and class composition and the grievances are addressed.

It's kinda sad the the upside for the teachers is that they "didn't lose what was illegally taken away from them"

[Traum]

Meme405, while I agree with most of your assessment, I think your summary above missed a very important point -- had the teachers agreed to a renew contract back in June, they would have had to give up on the wait for the court ruling. The new contract at the time was to have the provincial government re-negotiate the class size and composition clauses with the BCTF, and agreeing to that would have completely nullified whatever ruling the court comes to.

As Gatorade has said, it is extremely sad that the only upside for the teachers was that they didn't lose what was illegally taken away from them.

The limited liability dictated by grievence fund is just complete bs and a major ripoff. It is no different than a big FU from Crusty Cunt to the BCTF... In many ways, Crusty Cunt is also giving a big fat finger to the court as well should the ruling go in BCTF's favour again.

For those who supported the teacher throughout this labour dispute, please remember what has happened today when our next provincial election arrives in 3 years.

[meme405]

For those who supported the teacher throughout this labour dispute, please remember what has happened today when our next provincial election arrives in 3 years.

Unfortunately from my POV provincial elections are about picking the least evil option.

In federal elections my opinion sways depending on the candidates and their platform, in provincial elections if I could vote for all the candidates and parties to fuck right off I probably would have done so in both of the last two elections

I will NEVER in this lifetime vote NDP, so realistically here in BC that leaves me with Crusty Cunt and her merry band of idiots.

[6o4__boi]

^ I wouldn't say never, i'm getting real tired of Crusty and her shit so much that the NDP seems appealing...

Doesn't mean i'll vote for them, it's always been which platform is better and the NDP's always seems like some undereducated/underpaid intern came up with theirs. The sense i've gotten over the past few elections is do I wanna get shot in the face or do I wanna get shot in the back of the head? Do I take this vial that makes me puke shit violently til I die or do I take this vial that sticks a thousand dildos up my ass before I die? Either way I'm fucked.

There's never really any good choices anymore when it comes to politics. It's always which option is less shitty.

[Traum]

There is nothing wrong at all about picking the least evil option -- all I'm saying is that voters need to remember this labour dispute and take it into consideration when they are weighing the pros and cons between the competing parties. All too often, voters forget everything that happened in the first 3 years of a government's term, and then when decision time comes, they only remember the recent history and the false promises that a party offers.

I respect your dislike against the NDP, but especially in a 2 party system such as the provincial political structure that we have, I think it is wrong to always support just a single political entity. We all know power corrupts, and the long standing BC Liberal rule at the provincial level, and the multi-time repeated win of the federal Conservatives has shown that should any party remain in power for too long, tyranny results. For the system (and by extension, our society) to work, the political pendulum needs to sway back and forth every so often. Otherwise, the balance will be thrown off to favour only just one side.

[underscore]

The problem with the 2 party system is that you're always going to have to sacrifice some things by voting for either party, which is a huge pain in the ass. It'd be nice to get somebody who isn't extreme to one end of things or the other.

[tiger_handheld]

Benefits for me (a teacher): a small salary increase that will not make up for the ~$9000 I lost during the strike (my wife is a teacher also, so my household lost ~$18000), I can quit my $13/hour manual labour job that I've been working for the past month just to have some money coming in ;)
Benefits for students: more teachers/specialists to reduce class size and increase the diversity of programming available, the government backing off from it's intentions of ignoring previously bargained class size/composition.

No one wins and of course the students have lost the most in 5 weeks of schooling, but don't tell me that this was all about more money for me. The only silver lining I can find in this whole mess is that kids (including mine) will now have a better experience in school than if we hadn't been on strike.

Never have I been so pumped to get back to work! :)

acrophobia's reply has already summed it up best -- no one wins out of the job action, but the reason for the job action was definitely not about getting more money for the teachers themselves. Hell, they've lost 5 weeks' worth of salary. How long do you think it'll take for the negotiated pay raise to make up for the money they've lost?

The material thing that counted is, we have some new money getting pumped into the system to hire more new teachers so that class sizes would actually have a chance of dropping back down to levels that have been dictated by the law.

Last but not least, leaving the class size and composition issues for the provincial court to decide is the right thing to do, because that's what civil societies do. When there is a difference in opinion regarding something that is legally binding and private negotiations failed to bridge that gap, a civil society turns to their court system to have the issue resolved. Either (or both) parties may or may not agree with the outcome, but we agree to abide by the verdict, and that's what makes our country different from some 3rd world banana republic.

Based on that info acrophobia, makes about $86k (9000/5weeks = $1800/week x 4= $7200/mo x 12 = 86k) per year. When did making 86k become "not enough".
If I got paid 86k and got a raise on top of that that was not based on performance, but on seniority each year, I'd be pumped to go back to work too. My next raise is only 3 months away... woot woot!

Disclaimer: Acrophobia - this is not directed towards you personally, but towards the BCTF and how it's not about the money and about the kids.

[Gumby]

Based on that info acrophobia, makes about $86k (9000/5weeks = $1800/week x 4= $7200/mo x 12 = 86k) per year. When did making 86k become "not enough".
If I got paid 86k and got a raise on top of that that was not based on performance, but on seniority each year, I'd be pumped to go back to work too. My next raise is only 3 months away... woot woot!

Disclaimer: Acrophobia - this is not directed towards you personally, but towards the BCTF and how it's not about the money and about the kids.
Just correcting your math - teachers only work 10 months of the year so it's $7200/mo x 10 = 72k per "year". Hmm, still seems like quite a bit though!

[7seven]

I've probably spoken to about 10 teachers since the strike started, at social engagements such as parties or at the pub, and all of them were more than happy with the salaries they were getting and were happy to continue working for those wages. It seems more like it was their union heads and BCTF that were pushing for raises and increased benefits.

Christy Clark and the entire BCTF just look like complete idiots. I'm 99% sure I'll be voting BC Liberals again next election as their platform historically has been the most agreeable to me and I personally despise the majority of the NDPs platform and leaders even more, I'll just hope Clark steps aside for a new BC Liberal leader.


Smyth: It’s a disgrace our kids were used as weapons to achieve the inevitable in teachers' deal


BY MICHAEL SMYTH, THE PROVINCE SEPTEMBER 17, 2014

Ever since the escalation of the teachers dispute last spring, it was pretty clear where the parties needed to move to achieve a settlement.

The union had to back away from some its more extreme demands. In return, the government had to increase the amount of money to assist special-needs kids.

And the two sides had to figure out a way to tip-toe through the minefield of their ongoing court case and deal with the unexploded legal bombs later on.

That’s pretty much what was achieved in Tuesday’s tentative settlement — and it’s a damn shame they had to sacrifice five weeks of school to get there.

Like any fair and reasonable settlement, this is one in which both parties are not particularly happy.

The six-year deal contains a 7.25-per-cent raise for teachers — more than the five-year, 5.5-per-cent pattern of other public-sector unions, but still less than what many teachers feel they deserve.

Then you have a “retroactive grievance” fund, reported to be more than $100 million. This flows from the government’s illegal stripping of class-size limits from the teachers’ contract back in 2002.

The union’s court victory left the government vulnerable to 12 years of backlogged grievances from teachers who could rightfully argue the government illegally increased their workloads by forcing them teach larger classes.

Now the union will withdraw any grievances and not file new ones in return for the money.

Significantly, union president Jim Iker said the union gets to decide how to distribute the retro-grievance loot. Bet that every teacher gets a share, meaning teachers will get a back-door signing bonus, even if it’s not called that.

This is significant for the union — especially since teachers lost so much income on the picket line — but much less than what the union asked for ($225 million for the grievances and $150 million for a signing bonus.)

As for special-needs students, the government agreed to pour money into a new fund to hire more specialist teachers. Chalk it up as another key gain for the union, but far less than the $225-million-a-year windfall they were seeking.

Then there’s the ongoing legal war, set to flare again in the B.C. Court of Appeal next month.

The union managed to force the government off its notorious E80 proposal, which outlined the government’s demands for class-size and composition limits in a new contract.

The union was determined not to lock in class-size language in a deal, hoping to defeat the government in court again.

But though the union won on that point, the government got a “re-opener” clause in the contract, just in case another judge orders the restoration of expensive NDP-era class-size limits.

All in all, it’s pretty much what any reasonably informed observer could have predicted last spring. It’s a disgrace our kids were used as weapons to achieve the inevitable.

But I guess it could have been worse. If the Chinese consulate hadn’t officially complained about the strike disrupting the education of their international students, it might have dragged on even longer.

Premier Christy Clark said the Chinese pressure played no role in the sudden urgency to get a deal.

Sure it didn’t.



Smyth: It?s a disgrace our kids were used as weapons to achieve the inevitable in teachers' deal (http://www.theprovince.com/news/Smyth+disgrace+kids+were+used+weapons+achieve+inev itable+teachers/10209335/story.html)

[snowball]

Based on that info acrophobia, makes about $86k (9000/5weeks = $1800/week x 4= $7200/mo x 12 = 86k) per year. When did making 86k become "not enough".
.

You have to take into consideration that the wage increase over 6 years averages to 1.2% vs. the BC cost of living increase of 1.4% a year, he is essentially getting a pay cut by the end of the contract (not including the lost strike wages which won't be made up by the raise, also not including the 0% seen in the last 3 years.)

Maybe you get paid a good amount right now (teacher or not), but no one wants their purchasing power to be decreased in 5 years.

[Yodamaster]

I don't believe in "the lesser evil" when it comes to politics, all parties want changes that I don't believe in, I won't bend for something I don't support if I have the choice.

The notion of "no vote no voice" is a weak attempt at making me pity fuck someone just because they aren't as trash as the next tool to line up and lie to me.