[Ulic Qel-Droma]

All Our Patent Are Belong To You!!!

All Our Patent Are Belong To You | Blog | Tesla Motors (http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you)

June 12, 2014
All Our Patent Are Belong To You
By Elon Musk, CEO

Yesterday, there was a wall of Tesla patents in the lobby of our Palo Alto headquarters. That is no longer the case. They have been removed, in the spirit of the open source movement, for the advancement of electric vehicle technology.

Tesla Motors was created to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport. If we clear a path to the creation of compelling electric vehicles, but then lay intellectual property landmines behind us to inhibit others, we are acting in a manner contrary to that goal. Tesla will not initiate patent lawsuits against anyone who, in good faith, wants to use our technology.

When I started out with my first company, Zip2, I thought patents were a good thing and worked hard to obtain them. And maybe they were good long ago, but too often these days they serve merely to stifle progress, entrench the positions of giant corporations and enrich those in the legal profession, rather than the actual inventors. After Zip2, when I realized that receiving a patent really just meant that you bought a lottery ticket to a lawsuit, I avoided them whenever possible.

At Tesla, however, we felt compelled to create patents out of concern that the big car companies would copy our technology and then use their massive manufacturing, sales and marketing power to overwhelm Tesla. We couldn’t have been more wrong. The unfortunate reality is the opposite: electric car programs (or programs for any vehicle that doesn’t burn hydrocarbons) at the major manufacturers are small to non-existent, constituting an average of far less than 1% of their total vehicle sales.

At best, the large automakers are producing electric cars with limited range in limited volume. Some produce no zero emission cars at all.

Given that annual new vehicle production is approaching 100 million per year and the global fleet is approximately 2 billion cars, it is impossible for Tesla to build electric cars fast enough to address the carbon crisis. By the same token, it means the market is enormous. Our true competition is not the small trickle of non-Tesla electric cars being produced, but rather the enormous flood of gasoline cars pouring out of the world’s factories every day.

We believe that Tesla, other companies making electric cars, and the world would all benefit from a common, rapidly-evolving technology platform.

Technology leadership is not defined by patents, which history has repeatedly shown to be small protection indeed against a determined competitor, but rather by the ability of a company to attract and motivate the world’s most talented engineers. We believe that applying the open source philosophy to our patents will strengthen rather than diminish Tesla’s position in this regard.


ABOUT FUCKING TIME SOMEONE DID THE RIGHT THING

I thought patents were a good thing and worked hard to obtain them. And maybe they were good long ago, but too often these days they serve merely to stifle progress, entrench the positions of giant corporations and enrich those in the legal profession, rather than the actual inventors.

you guys already know my stance.

DISCUSS.

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

http://i.imgur.com/kqR7tyN.jpg
my values exactly.

everything is to be taken and modified freely for the sake of advancement. nothing was yours to begin with. Ideas must flow freely without restriction or ego for humanity to advance faster.

[StylinRed]

I dont think he's doing the "right" thing

I think he can see that Tesla is going to go bust unless EVs are adopted en masse
And since EV tech is expensive to develop he's making it free for now in hopes of mass adoption (to get company's to shy away from making fuel efficient gas guzzlers) and when these company's start selling he'll call up and say 'time to pay up for future use' because his 'good faith' clause will be called into action

smart business move imo but thats about it


edit: care to explain mikemhg?

[shawnly1000]

I dont think he's doing the right thing

I think he can see that Tesla is going to go bust unless EVs are adopted en masse
And since EV tech is expensive to develop he's making it free for now in hopes of mass adoption (to get company's to shy away from making fuel efficient gas guzzlers) and when these company's start selling he'll call up and say 'time to pay up for future use' because his 'good faith' clause will be called into action

smart business move imo but thats about it

Seems like a pretty cynical view of his motives.

[Ludepower]

marketing ploy?
Im sure all the other car manufactures are not far behind tesla with their own technology.

[godwin]

Basically it is going to be like Google Android.. there will be tons of Chinese knockoffs with crappy software that only makes the car barely useable. Most large corporations will still do their own thing.

The secret sauce is in the software in the control modules, which is not covered by patents in general.

So Tesla will become an aspirational brand when people got a taste of how yucky sub standard electric cars are and want to trade up.

Their patents like aircraft grade titanium plate to stop battery puncture.. who realistically going to use it in a corolla grade car? (besides the most obvious problem for Americans is Russia makes the vast majority of aircraft grade titanium, even the F35's titanium components are from Russia).

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

so near sighted guys.

who cares about elon musk and who cares about his profits.

it's what he did. more people have to follow. think of the big picture, if everyone did this. or more people did...

this can be a start of something. the first of its kind. we only need another handful of same level players doing the same thing to make the world seriously considering revising patent laws.

that's all it is. the first Molotov cocktail has been thrown... more will follow.

[godwin]

There are tons of open source hardware out there.. they don't do much of a dent.. why?

It costs money to do real life R&D. Just even prototyping electronic hardware is out of reach for most people in a financial (much less intellectual) standpoint.

It is not about short sightedness, it is reality.. Simple fact is designing things are hard, you might risk a year in your life to figure out someone else found a solution better than you. You need realistic level of university training.. (just note most of automotive engineers in Germany have PhDs). Currently, there are other low hanging fruits to go for in ones' live.. ever wonder why nearly all Chinese foreign students go for accounting / business degrees? Working for others is a heck lot safer than spending / risking life / money on research even if the base patents are free. Actually especially if the base patents are free, that means Tesla will get your improvements for free and since they have a larger industrial base (eg their Panasonic batteries), you just do their leg work for them. Pat on the back or a shout out on TWTR doesn't put meals on the table.. just like +1 on Facebook from Tesla saying how great your contribution are, despite what young hipsters tell you.

Nearly all parts of Tesla have tolerances that are higher than human can do.. eg their motor winding wires are distinctly shaped to maximize the electrical field. Musk knows there wont' be any "garage hobbyist" without a huge financial background like his to compete.

I can see companies like Little Rice, Oppo jumping on the bandwagon, where automotive safety standards are weak. Individuals actually contributing meaningfully with nothing but a shed? Not a fat chance.

so near sighted guys.

who cares about elon musk and who cares about his profits.

it's what he did. more people have to follow. think of the big picture, if everyone did this. or more people did...

this can be a start of something. the first of its kind. we only need another handful of same level players doing the same thing to make the world seriously considering revising patent laws.

that's all it is. the first Molotov cocktail has been thrown... more will follow.

[Gululu]

could tesla follow fisker's steps?


Sold to China: US electric car company purchased by Chinese billionaire - YouTube

[Sid Vicious]

so near sighted guys.

who cares about elon musk and who cares about his profits.

it's what he did. more people have to follow. think of the big picture, if everyone did this. or more people did...

this can be a start of something. the first of its kind. we only need another handful of same level players doing the same thing to make the world seriously considering revising patent laws.

that's all it is. the first Molotov cocktail has been thrown... more will follow.

+1 its not about just money and profit

if our society can reduce its dependence on oil, our world would improve by a factor of x999999

[godwin]

While it is a good sentiment to have.. Canada can eliminate our dependence on oil via electrification.. but China, USA, Australia? without opening the nuclear option? Not really.

Besides imagine the GDP hit Canada will take if we take oil out of the equation, perhaps you were too young for the oil crash in Ab.

Imagine the teacher union strike + unemployed people in Alberta, Sask or BC Fort McMurray. I won't say it will improve the society x999999. It is not about money and profit, it is about how do you deal with large scale unemployment, while your tax revenue dries up. Retrain everyone to have P.Eng, so they can work on the Tesla patents?

I am not saying opening the patents is bad, but the expectations you guys are spewing is plain unrealistic in short to medium term (ie one's lifetime).

+1 its not about just money and profit

if our society can reduce its dependence on oil, our world would improve by a factor of x999999

[godwin]

No Musk basically owns Tesla. The outstanding stock is just a small portion for smiles and giggles.

Fisker bet on the wrong battery company (A123). That's what caused its downfall. Musk collaborates with Panasonic, pretty much the largest rechargeable battery manufacturer by volume in the world. If they go under, we would worry more than Tesla.

could tesla follow fisker's steps?

[godwin]

Another thing, yes you can download the patents, but you pretty much need to have a Tesla to test out your ideas. So that will be +1 on the sales column for Tesla. (I would say more than +1 more like 2).

It is not like software where you can download things into a VM and run. You are talking about needed to modify a circuit board, you actually have to print out, source the parts and assemble (usually need pick and place machines). Be happy that if the board doesn't work, $2k is down the drain.

People who want to do it, have to have a certain technical and financial ability. Less messy and clean than old school hot rod shop, but you need people who knows what they are doing and I don't see a whole lot of them. Basically you are arguing against a team of EEs, who have superior tools + knowledge that they are wrong and you can do things better. It is a good and fun intellectual game, but I don't see it being realistic at this day and age where things are triple checked.

What I expect is most people will download the patents, have them on their hard discs and there they will just sit and backup. So it benefits storage companies like Seagate.

I am glad that in the future, I can get parts and diagnostics much easier than having to go to Tesla for servicing.



+1 its not about just money and profit

[trancehead]

bringing open source to an industry that traditionally has not been...i applaud you Elon Musk

it is working for the internet (alot of underyling tech here is free and open source. ie u can see the source code and even launch an implementation of it yourself).
Big servers, data processors, website JavaScript frameworks, etc

Even Apple and its OS X. it is built on top of a FREE and open operating system underneath. Because thats how stable and sexy it is.

[GabAlmighty]

Westjet did something similar to this years ago. What helps the entire market as a whole will help them in the end as well.

[godwin]

Actually WAS.

MacOSX is closed sourced now. For a lot of components like file sharing, they used to use Samba etc but once they are back on firm financial and manpower footing they slow down in committing source code. You can still be open source if you release the source code (eventually).

However it illustrates the key point, Musk can change his mind whenever he wants as the market suits him.

If you want to bring software into this discussion and more apt, I suggest Android. Android is probably a better example as it involves hardware and software. But Android is restrictive, eg factories that make Androids cannot have another line that make other OS. You still need to buy required patents from others.

Also don't confuse Open Source vs Free Patents. Musk is not making the software free (ie the important part of modulating different charge states), just the patents. Patent restrictions is what is making all the Chinese Android phones the same, because to save time and money, the companies buy direct from suppliers that have bought the requisite patents.

Having my career based on patents. I would say this, patents is worthless on paper and they are only worthwhile if you have the muscle (ie lawyers) to back you up.


Even Apple and its OS X. it is built on top of a FREE and open operating system underneath. Because thats how stable and sexy it is.

[Teriyaki]

I applaud him for taking this bold step. Some of the reasoning behind it though isn't so bulletproof imo.

Just take one look at China, where copyright and patent laws are basically meaningless and non-existent. Not too much creativity and inventions coming from there that aren't utter garbage.

Copyright and patents have their place and time. Will be interesting where this all leads.

[will068]

I wouldn't be surprised if Jeff Bezos picks up on this and starts an electric car company as well.

[godwin]

The way I see it, he is not that altruistic.

He is just heading off the serviceability aspect of Tesla cars in his argument with dealerships legislation in the US.

Basically he will make the argument "People can make 3rd party components to fix the car or even go to 3rd party shop, so we are not the only game in town if your Tesla goes kaput."

From this thread obviously good PR, because people who don't really know the game like the idealistic posters of this thread is on his side. Free stuff always generate good will, no matter how useless it is. Not to mention to really explore the patents you do need a Tesla.

I applaud him for taking this bold step. Some of the reasoning behind it though isn't so bulletproof imo.

Just take one look at China, where copyright and patent laws are basically meaningless and non-existent. Not too much creativity and inventions coming from there that aren't utter garbage.

Copyright and patents have their place and time. Will be interesting where this all leads.

[highfive]

Wasn't there issues with Tesla that their projected sales for their vehicles doesn't match the supply of batteries required to run those? They basically have to build a factory purely just for batteries?

[godwin]

Panasonic makes the batteries in Japan right now. They are commodity laptop batteries. Obviously it will cost a heck lot less if they open a factory in US (just material costs, not to mention labour will be lower).

Wasn't there issues with Tesla that their projected sales for their vehicles doesn't match the supply of batteries required to run those? They basically have to build a factory purely just for batteries?

[trancehead]

Actually WAS.

MacOSX is closed sourced now. For a lot of components like file sharing, they used to use Samba etc but once they are back on firm financial and manpower footing they slow down in committing source code. You can still be open source if you release the source code (eventually).

To clarify, when i said built on top of--was alluding to Unix. But yes, MacOSX as a whole is closed source.

a takeaway from this is, open source can spawn great products--even if closed source.

sidenote lol, macOSX is free now anyways. not open source of course, but they are realizing that the money is not in the operating system platform itself but the apps that surround it.

However it illustrates the key point, Musk can change his mind whenever he wants as the market suits him.

The article does mention him giving out these patents on 'good will'. im curious: how much leeway does he have to abuse this good will?


.

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

Having my career based on patents. I would say this, patents is worthless on paper and they are only worthwhile if you have the muscle (ie lawyers) to back you up.

I thought patents were a good thing and worked hard to obtain them. And maybe they were good long ago, but too often these days they serve merely to stifle progress, entrench the positions of giant corporations and enrich those in the legal profession, rather than the actual inventors.


the point of this post wasn't to do with some elon musk tactic, ploy, or whatever.

it's just to state that he has opened a door which can lead to many things we cannot yet even imagine.

that being said, i support inventors and i understand they need "motivation" ($$$) to invent... but really... we're talking about a minority of a minority that actually see money flow their way.

the corporations that fund the inventors, that provide the workspace and materials, own the patents... not actual guy or team that came up with it.

Jonas Salk did the right thing.

[Manic!]

I don't think OSX is free. You can only install it on Apple computers. I can't build a computer and put OSX on it and sell it.

[godwin]

I would say plenty. If the current GM "fiasco" is anything to go by, their ignition recall increased their sales because people rather trade in. It can be used as something to get people in the door. Once you used his patents, he changes his mind, he can change very little to make things incompatible. People might not like it and will have to buy something new again, but they would do it because that's all they know.

eg Different batteries chemistries have different charging curves. he can move to a different chemistries on the guise of "oh it is better"!

The article does mention him giving out these patents on 'good will'. im curious: how much leeway does he have to abuse this good will?

[godwin]

There are plenty of "many other things" that can lead to things we cannot yet imagine. eg Fusion, sub atomic magnetic or even gravity.

The problem is his patents are not unique inventions, there are plenty of people that have electrified their own cars. It is the sum of his patents + the software behind it + money, that makes Tesla work.

What comment about opening doors I think belittles efforts by other people who do electrification before Musk came along, and they are people who are truly work from their garage with analog electronics and controls.


the point of this post wasn't to do with some elon musk tactic, ploy, or whatever.

it's just to state that he has opened a door which can lead to many things we cannot yet even imagine.

that being said, i support inventors and i understand they need "motivation" ($$$) to invent... but really... we're talking about a minority of a minority that actually see money flow their way.

the corporations that fund the inventors, that provide the workspace and materials, own the patents... not actual guy or team that came up with it.

Jonas Salk did the right thing.

[StylinRed]

Seems like a pretty cynical view of his motives.

I dont think so, I think its just a realistic view after all growth has been dismal and
Tesla was recently given Junk Bond status (http://money.cnn.com/2014/05/28/investing/tesla-junk-bond-rating/), they're in over $2bn of debt
Musk has admitted that he's hoping EV Battery standards will be adopted, naturally matching his tech, and what better way to get that across than having his tech adopted?
Also if he was serious he wouldn't have noted his patents are open if used on "good faith"

And as noted EV tech is expensive it's cheaper for automakers to go for highly fuel efficient gas cars, and the market shows that this is the path automakers are taking.

so i dont think im being cynical i think im just seeing it for what it is

[godwin]

Actually I am one of the people who invented stuff and filed patents for them during my grad school era. That's one of the reasons I advocate the Germany education system where PhD for engineering students for free, because that's state paying for your education and time for invention, rest of your career you can focus on building businesses. It was one of my lawyer friends that urged me to do it, basically I get 80/20. The patents gave me a comfortable life and ability to invest in things. I am more than happy with his advice to "enrich".

The way I see, it is it is a have and have not situation, except the value is on the applicability of a patent (not like a song you can just copy and sing). The issue is, Tesla's patents is not the only way to electrification, Continental, Bosch etc have their own unique way, not to mention Denso, Aisan and BYD. The only thing Tesla has is marketting and since they don't have IC engines, they can bet all on electrification so the supercharging stations.

I thought patents were a good thing and worked hard to obtain them. And maybe they were good long ago, but too often these days they serve merely to stifle progress, entrench the positions of giant corporations and enrich those in the legal profession, rather than the actual inventors.

[multicartual]

Elon Musk sounds like something you'd smell at a robot gangbang

[SkinnyPupp]

First bitcoin, now this. Folks, the post-internet "next step" is taking place and we get to witness it :ahwow:

[Hehe]

From a business perspective, I think it's a brilliant move.

Tesla is investing billions into battery manufacturing. By opening its IP portfolio, whether it would attract new players into the field remains a question. But if it does, Tesla would ultimately benefit greatly from it.

1 - Tesla sells battery. And you can't have an electric car without a battery or some sort of electricity storage.

2 - Tesla sells EV-cars. But any EV-car specific part on a Tesla is pretty much made-to-suit. By attracting major players into the field, they would be able to bring the scale of EV-car parts by a magnitud Tesla can't achieve by itself.

3 - Free advertising!

[Mancini]

He's iron man. Only cooler.

[tiger_handheld]

A while back I posted about a documentary called "who killed the electric car" and in it GM had this model called EV or EV1/EV2, I can't quite remember. Anyway, the point was, the big fuel corps (Shell, Texaco, etc.) made fuel so cheap it was cheaper to run a hummer than to buy water and essentially killed the EV. They even had celebs driving EV's for publicity. GM recalled all the EV's and scrapped them.

The point is, the giant corporations will decide when EV's will be the 99% of global sales... not consumers.

Kind of like how MS will always package IE with windows but everyone of us knows that Chrome/FireFox (I believe both are open source) are so much better! Essentially, for the average non tech user, MS has decided IE is the way to go.. so similar to EV and regular cars.

That being said, I hope more corps will follow through but I don't see it happening. I am hoping to be proven wrong though..

[Hondaracer]

lol considering all the patent trolls out there etc. and everyone else's seemingly inability to make a desirable electric vehicle I feel exactly as Ulic does. I think you guys arent giving nearly enough credit for the idea of it as a whole, no shit somone in their garage isnt going to be building a model S. It contributes to the idea of a whole that progress is better than stagnation

BTW not really up to date with Tesla as a business, but was just in Europe for 2 months and there are model S's -everywhere- so they seem to be doing reasonably well

[SkinnyPupp]

A while back I posted about a documentary called "who killed the electric car" and in it GM had this model called EV or EV1/EV2, I can't quite remember. Anyway, the point was, the big fuel corps (Shell, Texaco, etc.) made fuel so cheap it was cheaper to run a hummer than to buy water and essentially killed the EV. They even had celebs driving EV's for publicity. GM recalled all the EV's and scrapped them.

The point is, the giant corporations will decide when EV's will be the 99% of global sales... not consumers.

Kind of like how MS will always package IE with windows but everyone of us knows that Chrome/FireFox (I believe both are open source) are so much better! Essentially, for the average non tech user, MS has decided IE is the way to go.. so similar to EV and regular cars.

That being said, I hope more corps will follow through but I don't see it happening. I am hoping to be proven wrong though..
That's exactly why we're seeing things like this. Oil companies are fucking us over, so we have to open the patents to change that system. Banks are fucking us over, so we have to change that system as well. The old way is dying, and it's dying fast. People are waking up.

[meme405]

First bitcoin, now this. Folks, the post-internet "next step" is taking place and we get to witness it :ahwow:

How are bitcoins, and one company eliminating its patents "the next step".

Unless of course this "next step" you are referencing is a the building of a bullshit economy based on someones hopes and dreams, and a company releasing its tech from its patents. If this is the next step you reference, then yes you are right, we are witnessing it.

You have a bitcoin thread and I am banned from it, keep that discussion there.

[J____]

I don't think OSX is free. You can only install it on Apple computers. I can't build a computer and put OSX on it and sell it.

Yes you can, you can build hackintoshes from pc parts, install OSX and sell them.

[dangonay]

That's exactly why we're seeing things like this. Oil companies are fucking us over, so we have to open the patents to change that system. Banks are fucking us over, so we have to change that system as well. The old way is dying, and it's dying fast. People are waking up.

Banks are fucking us over? How exactly? I pay zero fees and have unlimited use of my debit cards because I keep a minimum balance. I pay off my credit card each month and again pay no interest. On top of that, I collect points so I'm actually making money using my credit cards that I usually redeem on free airfare. My car loan is only costing me 0.9% interest. My deposits at my banks are fully insured so if the bank did go under (an extremely unlikely event) I'm covered.

I'm just not seeing how I'm getting "fucked over" by banks. Perhaps you know of an alternative system that offers me better rates, lower fees (lower than zero) and will let me borrow their money at ridiculously low interest rates all while guaranteeing my deposists.

[SkinnyPupp]

Banks are fucking us over? How exactly? I pay zero fees and have unlimited use of my debit cards because I keep a minimum balance. I pay off my credit card each month and again pay no interest. On top of that, I collect points so I'm actually making money using my credit cards that I usually redeem on free airfare. My car loan is only costing me 0.9% interest. My deposits at my banks are fully insured so if the bank did go under (an extremely unlikely event) I'm covered.

I'm just not seeing how I'm getting "fucked over" by banks. Perhaps you know of an alternative system that offers me better rates, lower fees (lower than zero) and will let me borrow their money at ridiculously low interest rates all while guaranteeing my deposists.
If you think banking is limited to the branch you walk into that holds your savings and loans you a few thousand dollars, you need to open your eyes a bit.

[dangonay]

Lame move by someone ready to go the same way as Fisker. The automotive industry is filled with countless patents owned not only by the manufacturers (like Ford and Toyota), but also by the countless suppliers that make components (Valeo, SKF, Borg Warner, ZF, Bosch, Siemens, Delphi - the list is endless).

And they have all done well and built successful vehicles with the current patent system. Tesla is a lightweight in terms of patents. Most of any Tesla vehicle is built using parts from these suppliers. Tesla has a few patents on things like charging, batteries, power distribution and so on. Just like all the major manufacturers do. And numerous other companies that have been building electric vehicles long before Tesla existed (like forklift companies) also have a lot of patents on technology related to electric propulsion. Even the high frequency motor drives used in a Tesla have been around forever in other industries (like factories or assembly lines).

This is more like a last-ditch effort to get things standardized like charging stations or battery technology. Tesla does not own the electric car industry, nor do they own the majority of the technology involved. They are a minor player who have managed to build some good cars using a bit of their technology and a lot of everyone elses technology.



This reminds me of Google self-driving cars. Google has done a good job of making people believe (incorrectly) that they are a pioneer of self-driving cars while ignoring the HUGE contributions in technology that they are standing on. But that's another topic altogether.

[dangonay]

If you think banking is limited to the branch you walk into that holds your savings and loans you a few thousand dollars, you need to open your eyes a bit.

That's all you've got? You can't whine about the banking system unless you can show harm. So please show me where I've somehow suffered because of the "system".

[SkinnyPupp]

That's all you've got? You can't whine about the banking system unless you can show harm. So please show me where I've somehow suffered because of the "system".
Bit busy lately, not much time other than to make a few quick posts here and there.

I will say, where were you in 2008? Not paying attention?

[tiger_handheld]

That's all you've got? You can't whine about the banking system unless you can show harm. So please show me where I've somehow suffered because of the "system".

If you have time, watch the movie called "Margin Call" it's a great movie on how the banking sector fucked the world...knowingly. The movie is based on a true story which started the 2008 fiasco.

[SkinnyPupp]

If you have time, watch the movie called "Margin Call" it's a great movie on how the banking sector fucked the world...knowingly. The movie is based on a true story which started the 2008 fiasco.
Also the documentary "Inside Job"

I'm not going to shit on someone for not knowing what is going on.. not that much.. you really should though because it's quite relevant. Because holy shit, to think banks are great because you got a good deal on a car loan... man there's more to this world than your car loan.

[Spoon]

Banks are fucking us over? How exactly? I pay zero fees and have unlimited use of my debit cards because I keep a minimum balance. I pay off my credit card each month and again pay no interest. On top of that, I collect points so I'm actually making money using my credit cards that I usually redeem on free airfare. My car loan is only costing me 0.9% interest. My deposits at my banks are fully insured so if the bank did go under (an extremely unlikely event) I'm covered.

I'm just not seeing how I'm getting "fucked over" by banks. Perhaps you know of an alternative system that offers me better rates, lower fees (lower than zero) and will let me borrow their money at ridiculously low interest rates all while guaranteeing my deposists.

1) Think of the aggregate of these minimum balances. They're being loaned out to make money off you.

2) Businesses pays the credit card fees. In the end, they factor that into their prices, so you're kidding yourself if you think you're making money off them.

3) Your deposits are only insured up to $100,000 by the CDIC, not the bank.

4) Unfortunately, banks aren't the ones setting interest rates, that's what the central bank is for.

By no means does this mean banks are fucking you over. But they're still a business and they're not handing out these freebies/perks for nothing; some of which has nothing to do with them.

[SkinnyPupp]

You guys are thinking way too small scale, talking about credit card fees and car loans. I'll have to find a nice concise blog post or video or something, because it's not just a matter of banks screwing people over with high fees or whatever.

I thought it was pretty common knowledge, but I'll look for something tomorrow.

[underscore]

What the fuck do banks have to do with Tesla's patents?

[Anjew]

this is a good move.... the more people move to electric, more infrastructure will be built. Tesla would benefit from this too.... much more than the other companies since tesla is all in on electric.

[Manic!]

Yes you can, you can build hackintoshes from pc parts, install OSX and sell them.

no you can't Apple will sue the pants off of you.

New Mac clone maker to open retail store in Calif. - CNET (http://www.cnet.com/news/new-mac-clone-maker-to-open-retail-store-in-calif/)


Apple's end-user license agreement, or EULA, forbids exactly what the clone makers are doing--installing Mac OS X on non-Apple hardware.

Macintosh clone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Later Macintosh cloning

Since Apple transitioned the Macintosh to an Intel platform in 2006, and subsequent to a major increase in visibility and a gain in computer market share for Apple with the success of the iPod, large computer system manufacturers such as Dell have expressed renewed interest in creating Macintosh clones.[15] While various industry executives, notably Michael Dell, have stated publicly that they would like to sell Macintosh-compatible computers, Apple VP Phil Schiller said the company does not plan to let people run Mac OS X on other computer makers' hardware. "We will not allow running Mac OS X on anything other than an Apple Mac," he said.[16]
Psystar
Main article: Psystar

From around 2007 to 2009, a company called Psystar attempted to sell what they thought were legal clone machines. But a protracted legal challenge followed, as Apple brought a lawsuit against them under the DMCA, a point US District Court Judge William Alsup agreed with Apple on, and therefore found against Psystar who then halted sales altogether of their Mac clone machines.[17][18][19]

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

I am glad to see a lot of people that usually only focus on the details of things, are finally looking at the greater whole.

[fishCak3s]

Interesting considering this came after Toyota pulls out its resources from the r&d deal with Tesla and shifting to fuel cells.

[godwin]

Simple, there are more patents that can be filled with fuel cells eg application of graphene. Electric vehicles are being commoditized (so prices are heading down along with profit margins). You can pick and choose systems from different OE and make your own.

One aspect about patents that no one on Musk cheerleadering team on this thread seems to get is physical patents are easy to get around. Say you patent, the design of a spring, just a different spring material, another manufacturer can get around it. So you need patent lawyers to enforce the patents.

The issue here is Tesla's patents are not very strong, there are many different ways to electrify cars. I would suspect moving to 48V will invalidate quite a few of their patents. Their secret sauce is the software which is NOT released NOR open sourced.

I see it as a PR exercise and basically a way so they *hope* to get third party to make replacement parts for them.

Ulic, Skinnypup remind me of the people who pinned all their hope on Obama.. we all know how quick change come.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/55/Barack_Obama_Hope_poster.jpg

Interesting considering this came after Toyota pulls out its resources from the r&d deal with Tesla and shifting to fuel cells.

[SkinnyPupp]

I am glad to see a lot of people that usually only focus on the details of things, are finally looking at the greater whole.
I'm pretty surprised that most people think "banking" means the branch down the street that gave them their car loan and holds their RRSP for them.

I am even more baffled that people don't get what a big deal this Tesla patent thing is, in terms of how our society is changing. The old line of brilliant innovative people kept everything to themselves, and continued the status quo.. Remember how much everyone hated Microsoft and Bill Gates? Well Gates eventually turned to philanthropy, so he sort of made up for it. Jobs never did, he just lived as a rich dirty cunt for his whole life.

The new line of companies like Tesla, Google, etc, are using their money and power to make things better... These are the people who lived through the shit, and know changes need to be made. And they are getting powerful enough that they can make those changes. If Google started in the early 90's they would never have the mantra of "don't be evil". Even Facebook tries not to be all cunty.

People don't see it, but I guess this is what the 'old school' wants for the most part. Go with the status quo, don't pay attention to anything else. Enjoy the car, iphones, etc

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

.

you're still dabbling in the details of his patents, and like.. little details of this ordeal.


think of it this way.

If i just made a thread that said "billionaire releases all of his patents".
i don't CARE about if his patents are weak, or whatever. i dont CARE about the details.

it coulda been elon musk. it coulda been anyone else.

I ONLY care that someone did it. someone released patents, regardless of motive or patent loopholes or whatever the fuck.

I ONLY CARE that SOMEONE has taken that action. and that MORE people should follow.

i don't give a fuck if it were patents on electric cars or a self gyrating dildo or whatever.

erase all identity and labels regarding elon musk and electric cars and all the little details of this scenario.

only include "man in high position, releases patents for all to use"
THATS IT. the details aren't important. the details you guys point out are all redundant. doesn't matter why, or what.

like i said, he DID it. he pulled the trigger, when no one else would do it for ANY reason.

and you're defending physical patent laws cuz theyre easy to get around, so u need lawyers to fight...

MY POINT IS FUCK THE PATENT. if it's THAT easy to get around, it was never a fucking original idea.

NOTHING is original. everyone should be able to take whatever the fuck they want and use it for whatever purpose they god damn want.

if you wanna be greedy and label that "idea" as "YOURS" (it's not), then so be it. it's just ego and greed speaking.

if i had access to patents, i'd release them to china and russia. what the fuck are you gonna do now western world?

the reason you guys think innovation "sucks" in that area of earth is not because there's no incentive to innovate.
there are PLENTY of awesome inventions that get made and applied. perhaps MORE than here. just they cant get it patented. everyone will steal it and use it. and it becomes normalized. everyone has it. no one owns it. it's just normal. no one man or company can say "it's mine! it's special! innovation! MINE! everyone using it is a follower of me!"

fuck that. someone sees what you're doing. they take it and use it for their own. or make it better. no credit goes to anyone. no one fucking cares.

I want innovators that innovate based on the PASSION to want to improve man kind.

i don't want innovators innovating based on how much money they can make.
the greed generated by that system does not outweigh the advancement we have.




passionate inventors will invent, regardless of what reward they get. they will keep inventing even if it bankrupts them.
THEY ARE THE REAL INVENTORS. everyone else is a SHAM. just throw some money at them and tell them to get the fuck outta here!!!

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

THAT being said, i still think innovators should get rewarded... but current patent laws are outdated. things change too fast. we need to adapt and advance faster.

my only realy gripe is, why do patent laws last so long? why not just a handful of years at MOST?

my MAIN displeasure with these laws are like elon said, they STIFLE PROGRESS.
they TOTALLY STIFLE PROGRESS and it pisses me off. and this isn't some idealistic rant.

it's TOTALLY fixable.

[meme405]

I'm pretty surprised that most people think "banking" means the branch down the street that gave them their car loan and holds their RRSP for them.

I am even more baffled that people don't get what a big deal this Tesla patent thing is, in terms of how our society is changing.

Im pretty baffled that you think a currency which lost countless millions and possibly even billions of dollars of people's money is a good idea.

It's great what Elon Musk is doing, and I agree it's ushering a new wave for others to hopefully follow, but Bitcoin is garbage and has no relation to the subject of a company ditching patents.

[SkinnyPupp]

Im pretty baffled that you think a currency which lost countless millions and possibly even billions of dollars of people's money is a good idea.

It's great what Elon Musk is doing, and I agree it's ushering a new wave for others to hopefully follow, but Bitcoin is garbage and has no relation to the subject of a company ditching patents.
Really, the currency lost money. Think about that statement. How does that work exactly?

If you lose USD or CAD getting scammed or on a bad investment, do you blame the currency?

There's so much information out there, you are either pretending to be stupid to be a troll, or are just willfully ignorant.

[StylinRed]

Im pretty baffled that you think a currency which lost countless millions and possibly even billions of dollars of people's money is a good idea. foreign exchange rates lose/gain trillions everyday

It's great what Elon Musk is doing, and I agree it's ushering a new wave for others to hopefully follow, but Bitcoin is garbage and has no relation to the subject of a company ditching patents.

he's not ditching them...he's making them free to use "in good faith" for now

a lot of company's don't file patents on their property, and some company's share their property (open source) they should have people circle jerking in ecstasy over them then...


:fulloffuck: at how people are getting played over this

[GGnoRE]

greed is what drives 99.9% of economy

its unrealistic to expect people to donate, for passion's sake, their skill and knowledge without adequate incentives

if we were to scrap patent laws, adverse selection would take over and our economic progress would suffer significantly

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

99.8% now.

it is unrealistic to expect greedy people to do it.

but people that have become semi more enlightened and their egos deflated realise that actually, everyone is just an extension of them.

there have been countless of passionate inventors in the past that have invented things because that's what gives them energy to get up everyday. they invented shit when they were broke. they borrowed more money to invent things. for the sake of inventing things.

it's not unrealistic, it's only unrealistic if your perspective is of this lifetime. rewind time a little, there have been plenty of ages where information and knowledge was shared by all.

look at the persian empire, they were built on sharing scientific information with thousands of other nations. all the great scholars and philosophers and what not all gathered in persia to exchange ideas and learn and build on each others stuff.

only greed and ignorance brought these empires down. in fact greed and ignorance is the sole reason ALL empires are brought down.

u don't need 99% of the world to be non-greedy, u only need like 15-20%, the rest will follow.

like i said, it's a start. that's it. just a start. the foot in the door. not even. the foot, stopping the door from closing on you lol.

[SkinnyPupp]

only greed and ignorance brought these empires down. in fact greed and ignorance is the sole reason ALL empires are brought down.

You could say "Because Mongols". That's the tricky part of that time in history.. so much was happening, then the Mongols came and wiped everything out. It's not like there was this overall switch to their lifestyle, they just came and pretty much wiped culture off the face of the earth...

Good point though still.

[meme405]

Really, the currency lost money. Think about that statement. How does that work exactly?

If you lose USD or CAD getting scammed or on a bad investment, do you blame the currency?

There's so much information out there, you are either pretending to be stupid to be a troll, or are just willfully ignorant.

foreign exchange rates lose/gain trillions everyday



I am not talking about losing money as in losing value.

I am talking about the collapse of Mt. Gox which led to the disappearance of what was at the time like half a billion dollars worth of bitcoins.

Sorry but last time my local money mart closed its doors for good, millions of dollars did not disappear off the grid with the business.

[trancehead]

heres an analogy

We have the american dollar. And we have Bitcoin

We have for example: Martha's Bank-- an implementation of a bank/entity/transactional manager. But this isnt all there is to the American dollar-->this is just one bank. Of course some poor actions or management of this one bank does not mean the entire USD is faulty.

And we have Mt Gox. And like wise, this doesnt represent the entire Bitcoin protocol/system, it is just one implementation. Again, poor actions that result here does not mean the Bitcoin protocol itself is faulty.

[SkinnyPupp]

heres an analogy

We have the american dollar. And we have Bitcoin

We have for example: Martha's Bank-- an implementation of a bank/entity/transactional manager. But this isnt all there is to the American dollar-->this is just one bank. Of course some poor actions or management of this one bank does not mean the entire USD is faulty.

And we have Mt Gox. And like wise, this doesnt represent the entire Bitcoin protocol/system, it is just one implementation. Again, poor actions that result here does not mean the Bitcoin protocol itself is faulty.
Yup except with MtGox, everyone found out what happened and will never have anything to do with the guy or anything associated to him. With banks, people they will keep getting bailed out, and people just keep going back, since the governments' ponzi scheme relies on them so much. With a fiat currency backed by nothing other than keeping things going in cycles and printing more and more of it, the ponzi collapses and everyone loses (ironic isn't it, that this is the point that clueless people try to make about bitcoin)

Yet they will continue to fuck people over (and I don't mean charging more fees for credit card users or giving you a high interest rate on your car loan, I mean literally ruining lives), they will get bailed out again, and the cycle continues.

Once it collapses though, look out. Some think it will happen very soon, (Peter Schiff, the guy from Young Turks), some think it'll happen eventually... Others keep themselves distracted with a shiny new phone every year and low interest car loans.

[godwin]

Bitcoin / virtual currency do have similarities with patents.

In the sense that all the easy patents have been taken long time ago. To get really fresh, solid patents, you have to have some real financial muscle. (Much like mining bitcoins with ASIC mining pools). eg One thing that has a lot of growth in patent applications is nano technology, however to do that one has to have at least a half decent electron scanning microscope and all the gear that goes with it. You can try to dismantle the system, I would argue there will be less scientific development, because the incentive is just not there.

Not to "look into details", science is hard, expensive and realistically only a miniscule slither of the population knows how to do it. That's what brought US in the big basic research decline in the first place. Politicians don't understand why it take decades to make smashing atoms work into a fusion generator.

[Lomac]

Meanwhile, Elon Musk's other company, SpaceX, wont even patent their property.

If this whole Tesla thing wasn't more than a simple PR thing, Musk wouldn't have an issue either patenting SpaceX's property or releasing the information on how it all works instead of keeping it insanely secretive.

[68style]

^
Come on now... the guy's gotta have some fun... you want him to walk around with a post-it note on his crotch telling everyone how big his dick is too? :shhh:

[rcoccultwar]

The show they had was an absolute joke at Universal Studio, almost like NASA was trying to make themselves look like an agency in disarray.

Would NASA give secret info to SpaceX as part of the negotiation process? Anyways, what would ancient astronaut theorists have to say if it ever came to choosing between SpaceX vs NASA for the next big exploration? Sorry a bit of a weird question from way out there. Interestingly, it looks like other international agencies(Spain?) are releasing info Nasa should be way ahead on. Tesla cars are cool as the one I drove felt way faster than the Z06 I drove years ago. But for me SpaceX/Nasa is a way more important piece of the puzzle.