[Hondaracer]

Seen some really ignorant stances on the subject recently mostly through friends of friends, was wondering what other people thought

Obviously BlackFish was a documentary basically highlighting the worst aspects and practices of the industry. But many people obviously used it as a rallying point or it "opened their eyes" to what was going on.

I was recently told that If i was so ok with it, how would I like it if someone came and kidnapped me, put me in a small cell and had "aliens" gaulk at you all day. Thought about it and came to the point that -all mammals- would feel that change. From Killer whale to Squirrel they would be sad, be different, go crazy, in the exact same scenario. They know enough to realize what has happened. So where should you stop?

With that said, i'm on the side of all or none basically. I understand that orcas and dolphins are very intelligent compared to a bear or coyotes but for me, it's just as sad to see a bear or wolf confined than the Killer whales. Your argument then could be numbers. Thing is, most of the people who trumpet closing Sea World etc do not know the number of Orcas out there. I've read numerous sources quoting the numbers at "No less than 50,000"

50,000 is quite a population. If there are 100 in captivity I feel that the benefits that having Aquariums, Seaworld, etc. have far more benefits than negatives to the public. Most of the people i've talked to who are most adamant about it have all been west coast type, upper middle class, who have probably been on the ocean a few times, seen the whales in person, etc. Places like Seaworld provide a means for people who may have never even seen the ocean see Killer Whales in person, people who aren't privileged enough to have seen them. So out of the millions a year who go to Seaworld, if one child grows up to be a marine biologist or something of the ilk, inspired by seeing the whales or gaining an interest from a show goes on to create or invent something, or even just through their promotion "saves" 30 whales. Worth it no?

I've done quite a bit of wild life work through BCWF as well as a hunting and fishing club i'm a part of such as willow habitat for moose, wood duck boxes, tests on our clubs cabin lake for surveys, etc. Being lucky enough to have grown up always going out hunting, fishing, being in the outdoors with wild life I've got a huge appreciation and love for all animals and I still strongly believe the benefits far outweigh the downsides

[Alatar]

What benefits, I'm curious, do you feel there are, to having large animals in captivity in what is essentially the size of a prison cell for them.

For an animal that is hugely migratory, and has a "normal" range of thousands of kilometers of ocean that they call "home" it's tantamount to someone telling you that you may live in a 150sq ft apartment, that it's normal, and that you're not allowed to leave it.

[MG1]

I don't believe in the capture of any animal.

With great high res footage of creatures in the wild, zoos and aquariums are not needed. If one wants to study these creatures, go to them, not the other way around.

Children aren't as naiive as we make them out to be. If we didn't have stupid songs and books about zoos and shit, kids wouldn't miss it. Make it a thing of the past.

When I was a child, the only thing that stuck in my mind about zoos was the horrible sight of seeing this polar bear at Stanley Park Zoo doing a pattern of walking to and fro the same way a thousand times. He looked so sad and miserable. He reeked of, "Shoot me now, PLEASE!"

Thank god they got rid of the zoo. I'm sure every kid had the same reaction. Those animals were probably reincarnated humans whose previous life was that of a murderer or rapist.

At Sea World, they put on a damn good show, but in the end, it's all about making money off the backs of creatures in captivity.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, there are hundreds of excuses for having zoos and aquariums. And as long as people go these places, they will continue to exist. Can't change that, but I refuse to take part in it.

/sermon

[sonick]

gaulk

gaulk

gaulk

gaulk











gaulk

[MG1]

^really?

Are we talking Moby's Dick?

[Pegacorn]

50,000 is quite a population. If there are 100 in captivity I feel that the benefits that having Aquariums, Seaworld, etc. have far more benefits than negatives to the public.



There are 7 billion people in the world. That's quite a population, what's the big deal if we put a few million in concentration camps?

What are these benefits of having aquariums, exactly? I'm genuinely curious, because I feel like I've been ignorant to the contribution of these facilities for far too long.

[PiuYi]

my stance against Seaworld is that they are a for-profit organization who have no interest in educating the public on the truth or improving the livelihoods of wild populations

sure, it would be great if 1/100 kids become a marine biologist from going to Seaworld, but personally, my most inspiring trips as a kid weren't to VanAqua.... they were to tidepools and observing the ecosystems there

[Hondaracer]

What benefits, I'm curious, do you feel there are, to having large animals in captivity in what is essentially the size of a prison cell for them.

For an animal that is hugely migratory, and has a "normal" range of thousands of kilometers of ocean that they call "home" it's tantamount to someone telling you that you may live in a 150sq ft apartment, that it's normal, and that you're not allowed to leave it.

If they are bred in captivity as most of the sea world whales are they do not know anything other than captivity.

Like I said, if whales should be released then so should everything else. The benefit is SEEING these animals. Seeing them in person, knowing they exist and maybe caring about them more than they would without.

[Lomac]

If they are bred in captivity as most of the sea world whales are they do not know anything other than captivity.

Like I said, if whales should be released then so should everything else.

Why not go one step further and ban any form of pets? I have two dogs, two cats and an aquarium full of fish. While the dogs are outside animals (read: they spend the day roaming outside, then sleep at the foot of my bed at night), they're still technically as much "captives" as the fish in my tank or the orca at Seaworld.

Not being entirely serious with that comment, but you have to realize that it quickly becomes a slippery slope by saying everything should be released.

[Hondaracer]

So if whales should, why not bears? Elephants, etc? Sites say 54 whales are in known captivity. These were issues before a documentry told people how to think.

[underscore]

I don't really classify Sea World as an aquarium due to the shows, etc that they put on for profit. On the same token I don't think that rescued animals that are unable to be released into the wild are the same as animals captured and then bought into captivity.

[rsx]

Don't like zoos or aquariums. Prefer to have them in a nature preserve, if anything.

[MG1]

Why not go one step further and ban any form of pets? I have two dogs, two cats and an aquarium full of fish. While the dogs are outside animals (read: they spend the day roaming outside, then sleep at the foot of my bed at night), they're still technically as much "captives" as the fish in my tank or the orca at Seaworld.

Not being entirely serious with that comment, but you have to realize that it quickly becomes a slippery slope by saying everything should be released.

Can you imagine what kind of impact banning pets would have on this planet? A billion dollar industry gone overnight? Think how many mouths (human) we could feed if all those dollars got diverted.

Think of how many churches could be built wth all that money (not serious at all, LOL). Hookers and blow (hmmmm.......).

I'm not a pet owner, so I cannot say much more. What can I say? I'm alergic to cats, dogs, dust, and hairy things (it's on file as such, lol).

Why have pets when you have kids? or is it, why have kids when you have pets?

Yeah dogs and cats are domesticated. Tell your dog, Lomac, that it can leave at anytime............. it'll be like fuckthatshit........ I like my life. The owner, not so much. Hee hee.

As for the born in captivity comment, throw the young one into the wild and stop the bleeding. Let nature handle it.

Remember that whale that kept losing its baby (stillborn). In a way it was a better sentence for it than a life of captivity for itself and further generations. Let nature handle it.

Humans had no right to do this to another sentient being in the first place.

[StylinRed]

I support the educational benefits that our aquarium provides for children and the infirm and low income families as they wouldn't be able to experience/learn about these creatures... our aquariums also garner a great deal of research as well as care for creatures which would die in the wild.

However places like Sea World, which also provide the same benefits, seem to be more in tune with circuses of old, which abuse the creatures in their care to perform tricks so they can make a buck... and as with circuses of old legislation needs to be introduced to provide a level of care to the beings and prevent abuse while allowing them to continue on with business.

This recent attack on aquariums is just the current 'it' thing these people seem to forget that there is a large list of animals that are locked up for our amusement or nourishment or vanity, which they probably support in some shape or form...

again we need to ensure a level of care and respect to these beings but not stop what we're doing entirely, due to the benefits, just because of some hipsters chasing the current 'it' thing.

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

1. they SHOULD build bigger "aquariums" for these whales as the resources are available.

2. we treat humans worse.

3. humans need to be violently reminded and physically policed and enforced to make sure they obey the laws of treating other humans "properly".

4. humans still break that law, all the time.

5. whales are not classified as people, therefore they will don't fall under the same laws as humans, therefore they will not be treated or enforced as such, regardless of what your values or thoughts are.

6. maybe we need to update the laws?

just stating facts.

[Pegacorn]

So if whales should, why not bears? Elephants, etc? Sites say 54 whales are in known captivity. These were issues before a documentry told people how to think.

This is all, largely, an ethics argument. If you don't understand ethics, then you may not understand the issue.

While I agree that a masterfully edited documentary can manipulate how someone feels about something, I would not say that they tell people how to think. Yes, these were issues before, but do you know why we didn't know about them? Because then Seaworld wouldn't make any goddamn money if we did. Documentaries like Blackfish shed light on an ugly world that people with money do their best to hide from us.

As for other animals in captivity, I agree with Lomac that it's a slippery slope and this is where we need to take ethics into consideration. Why are these animals being kept captive? Are they part of a breeding program for endangered species? Are they part of an educational program so that we can better understand these animals so that we don't cause further harm to their species? Some zoos do that and they generate money for their breeding and education programs by charging admission to see the animals. Seaworld captures whales and puts them in tiny tanks where they live a short, depressing life PURELY for entertainment. You can argue that it's educational, but as you may have seen in Blackfish, a lot of what they told the audience was not true of whales in their natural habitat. You go to Seaworld and you get to learn about whales in captivity, not about whales as a species.

As for the argument that these whales are born in captivity and know nothing else, how about Josef Fritzl? He kept his daughter and all of the children he fathered with her in their cellar for their entire lives. They didn't know anything else, so what's the problem? ETHICS.

[GS8]

Technology has come a long way since the 50's. Animal tracking has become much more sophisticated and reliable.

The whole concept of zoos / aquariums is outdated and needs to go. There's so much information available online through documentaries, journals and personal blogs. Hell I'm sure there are smartphone apps / games that educate even the dumbest kid.

It's one thing to see a large animal in a small enclosure but why are they entertaining me? How am I learning about natural whale behaviour when I see one leaping in the air to catch a well placed fish?

The last time I went to the Vancouver Aquarium was in 1993. I have no plans to ever go back.

I'm not a hipster trend chaser. Animals deserve their freedom as they are not bound by the laws that we are. If there's one thing FB taught me, it's that people don't know shit about animal behaviour so clearly places like Zoos & Aquariums aren't doing their job.

[Bouncing Bettys]

The notion of banning animals which have been domesticated does not relate to the issue of keeping wild animals in captivity. You can't raise wild animals from birth in a domesticated environment and expect them to behave - they will revert to their wild nature no matter how much contact they have with humans. Places like wildlife parks provide a means for an injured wild animal to be brought back to health so I take no issue with those places. Zoos on the other hand sure little purpose or benefit to the animals.

[parm104]

I've gone whale watching several times and seeing them free and roaming was a much more exhilarating experience for me and my family than it was at an aquarium or zoo.

Watching the whales strategically get their food as a pod vs watching someone throw lil pieces of fish into their mouths after they do roll over tricks is not something that can be compared.

[Hondaracer]

99% of the population does not have access/funds to go whale watching.

[parm104]

99% of the population does not have access/funds to go whale watching.

You're right...life is good at the 1%....:suspicious:

$91/adult ticket at Seaworld vs $100/ticket at a local Whale Watching event....

[multicartual]

Whale watching in Tofino was great!!!

[StylinRed]

It costs $50 @ seaworld currently (50year anniversary) but wow that's too high (the non-special price), wonder what they charge for school field trips
$32-36 for a whale watching tour in san diego

Its only $15 for kids 12 and under @ our Aquarium, $20 for students and $29 for adults including taxes

[$_$]

All animals are animals.

I don't understand why some people just care so much more about one type versus another. Some of the same people up in arms "poor Tilikum" be stuffing KFC chicken down their throats and eating "high end baby veal" downtown.

"No you can't breed dogs for food you are so fucking inhumane" but "please i'd love that prime rib medium rare, better not overcook that shit because I wanna taste that cow's fucking blood - that's what makes it delish".

We are an apex predator. Top of the food chain. That means we decide what happens. But instead of worrying about poor couple of whales in captivity wah wah wah, why not worry about the billions of other animals that are bred for consumption and kept treated in the most inhumane way possible. Fuck, why not care about actual people, like the ones being locked up in prison over petty drug crimes in a 4x4 cells or millions of people living way below the poverty line in disease ridden enviroments due to systematic rape by other nations? Fuck those guys right? Why? Oh right, cause they ain't as cute as that beluga whale....

Zoos are amazing places for kids and adult alike because most of people will never have the means to travel the world to see these animals in their natural habitat. Seeing different animals is like taking a trip around the world - you can't tell me there is no educational value on being able to cross those imaginary country lines for normal every day folk and inspiring kids about learning more about nature and animals. That's a small price to pay for education and scientific advancements, just like how animal testing and trials are necessary. Do you go and protest against chemical testing on mice? Do you even know the kind of shit we do to mice? lol... But yeah, no one gives a fuck

I hate those people bitching and moaning about how terrible something is only when they watch a 50 minute documentary and suddenly they become the most animal moral person in the world. People only really start to give a shit when an animal looks cute and cuddly, or big and fearsome. If its an ugly animal, no one will give a fuck

[twitchyzero]

i wouldn't say a 6 hour drive to tofino for whale watching or the upper fraser river estuary for salmon run is as accesible as our local aquarium for school children

that said, I do believe documentaries already do a great job in sparking interest in marine biology...although it doesn't have the same impact on a child as seeing one up close or being able to poke at sea stars

[Hondaracer]

You're right...life is good at the 1%....:suspicious:

$91/adult ticket at Seaworld vs $100/ticket at a local Whale Watching event....

it's $78 for a day pas + the rest of 2014 for 1 child at Seaworld, essentially a seasons pass for $78. Guaranteed to see every animal available.

a one time fee for whale watching from newport beach is $36 for a child. No guarantee to see any wildlife, let alone a whale within any vicinity.

[$_$]

You're right...life is good at the 1%....:suspicious:

$91/adult ticket at Seaworld vs $100/ticket at a local Whale Watching event....

100/ticket to go whale watching, but do you get to see the whale for sure? Serious question because I haven't been since I was a kid.

But you're seriously discounting something though - how many species of animals does a kid get to experience at the aquarium? There must be hundreds of species of fish, insect, and birds alone at the vancouver location. What about zoos? When a kid is learning the alphabet the first thing we teach them is animals. Do you really think showing a kid an elephant on an ipad has the same effect as taking him to the zoo? A lion, a tiger? What about gorillas and monkeys? There's something special about sitting face to face with a gorilla and looking them in the eyes - that little spark you see that makes it plausible that we might have really evolved from a lesser life form. If anything it promotes better care of all animals when they are real and live in front of us like that, because it shows not only how different but also how similar we are.

[rcoccultwar]

Pretty amazing that these animals are sedated with valium and xanax if anyone didn't know already.

[MG1]

Free drugs........... sign me up!



:troll:

[Shorn]

honestly.. there are humans being treated much much worse than animals around the world and that's what you should truly be caring about.

in the grand scheme of things, captive whales don't matter compared to captive humans.

if everybody who spent so much time caring for animals put their attention and money and effort towards humanitarian aid instead, i bet we could make the world a much better place for ALL humans

[GS8]

All animals are animals.

I don't understand why some people just care so much more about one type versus another. Some of the same people up in arms "poor Tilikum" be stuffing KFC chicken down their throats and eating "high end baby veal" downtown.

"No you can't breed dogs for food you are so fucking inhumane" but "please i'd love that prime rib medium rare, better not overcook that shit because I wanna taste that cow's fucking blood - that's what makes it delish".

We are an apex predator. Top of the food chain. That means we decide what happens. But instead of worrying about poor couple of whales in captivity wah wah wah, why not worry about the billions of other animals that are bred for consumption and kept treated in the most inhumane way possible. Fuck, why not care about actual people, like the ones being locked up in prison over petty drug crimes in a 4x4 cells or millions of people living way below the poverty line in disease ridden enviroments due to systematic rape by other nations? Fuck those guys right? Why? Oh right, cause they ain't as cute as that beluga whale....

Zoos are amazing places for kids and adult alike because most of people will never have the means to travel the world to see these animals in their natural habitat. Seeing different animals is like taking a trip around the world - you can't tell me there is no educational value on being able to cross those imaginary country lines for normal every day folk and inspiring kids about learning more about nature and animals. That's a small price to pay for education and scientific advancements, just like how animal testing and trials are necessary. Do you go and protest against chemical testing on mice? Do you even know the kind of shit we do to mice? lol... But yeah, no one gives a fuck

I hate those people bitching and moaning about how terrible something is only when they watch a 50 minute documentary and suddenly they become the most animal moral person in the world. People only really start to give a shit when an animal looks cute and cuddly, or big and fearsome. If its an ugly animal, no one will give a fuck

While I agree with some of what you say, I have to acknowledge the fact that there are 2 types of the people you're describing.

1.) The trend chasing, social media abusing fucktard who spams likes / shares on whatever is trending with the delusion that he / she is making a difference by 'acknowledging' the problem. These people are very vocal and scream till everyone hears them. But what do they do when everyone has their attention?

Nothing, because by the time everyone has acknowledged their whining, they have moved on to the next 'crisis of the week'.

2.) These people are the ones who you don't hear of. They are the ones who work behind the scenes, slowly gathering facts over the course of years to put together a strong enough case towards corporations or Government branches. Fact finding / checking takes time and LOTS of resources. You need people who are actually committed to the cause. You need to take risks, in some cases, with your life. It's not watching a Documentary in your leather sectional. It's about going out in the field to do what you need to do for the cause you're standing up for.

It's painstaking enough to fight for a single cause so to fight for completely different causes would give most a mental breakdown. That's why you have genuine people out there who are fighting for animal rights, human rights, sociopolitical and economic rights. No one person or group can cover them all. It's WAY too much.

Documentaries are great for bringing awareness to a subject but it's ultimately up to the viewer to act on those impulses to help anyone and anything around them.

EDIT: When I was a young kid, I went to the zoo and the aquarium. But guess what? I don't remember jack shit from any of those visits. As kids grow up, they forget things and have to relearn them when they get older unless you pummel them with information like you would with a History lesson or Math equation.

[Noir]

honestly.. there are humans being treated much much worse than animals around the world and that's what you should truly be caring about.

in the grand scheme of things, captive whales don't matter compared to captive humans.

if everybody who spent so much time caring for animals put their attention and money and effort towards humanitarian aid instead, i bet we could make the world a much better place for ALL humans

I hate it when people always trivialize a tragedy or occurence by finding a bigger tragedy or occurence to compare it to; there will always be something bigger in comparison.

Are some humans so limited of sympathy that we only choose to sympathize with injustices that only reach such magnitude - and the rest marginalized?

[SupraTTturbo2jz]

anyone seen this documentary? mass slaughtering of dolphins and how they handpick them for sea world etc..

The Cove, stop slaughtering dolphins in Taiji, Japan (太地のイルカの虐殺をやめろ) - YouTube

[parm104]

it's $78 for a day pas + the rest of 2014 for 1 child at Seaworld, essentially a seasons pass for $78. Guaranteed to see every animal available.

a one time fee for whale watching from newport beach is $36 for a child. No guarantee to see any wildlife, let alone a whale within any vicinity.

Cool...don't forget to convert that into Canadian dollars so you can compare the two prices accurately.

100/ticket to go whale watching, but do you get to see the whale for sure? Serious question because I haven't been since I was a kid.


The places that I've gone whale watching was a guaranteed spotting or money back. This wasn't local though so I'm not sure if the same policies apply here in Victoria.

[Hondaracer]

I don't think the currency is a factor. Again you're speaking to the rather privileged vancouverites who could sit on false creek and see a whale. My generalization is towards people who do not have any sort of opportunity. Mostly in the states

[multicartual]

If its an ugly animal, no one will give a fuck


If spiders were 30 feet long/tall can you imagine how many women would be protesting topless until we made them go extinct???

[GS8]

So last night, I sat down and actually watched this film.

My overall impression was 'unimpressed'. For an 80min run time, I didn't feel like I learned much of anything other that what I had already learned.

With that said, there was one quote that stood out to me. It was along the lines of 'In 50 years, we'll look back at these times and say WHAT A BARBARIC TIME!'.

He's right though I think it'll be longer than 50 years. Look at how many wonders of the world were built by slaves? Barbarism to us in this day & age but perfectly normal back then. Unfortunately we can't evolve until we acknowledge the flaw itself.

I still stand by my view that Aquariums are just a cash grab meant to exploit and distort the truths about these animals. Unfortunately, by keeping people in the dark and manipulating them through various means, they will always be in your control. Even subconsciously.

Hell I saw that new Disney Bear movie and would rather get mauled by a bear than watch that pile of shit again. I know it was meant for kids but still.....:facepalm:

[Hondaracer]

lol

that was also a point i had meant to make in my origial post but probably too baked. If you didnt already realize that this kind of thing was going on you were ignorant to begin with. I'm pretty sure even in Blackfish it shows the offspring of the one main orca and then a large family tree of his offspring all who were brought into captivity

[white rocket]

I think animals in captivity is just horrible, in any and all ways, despite the reasoning for it. It absolutely breaks my heart to animals in distress for the benefit of humans. I'd prefer that we observe them in their environment with as little intervention as possible. Just what my heart says, nothing more.

It is a fine line though as intentions can be different from person to person. Captivity for education or captivity for money? Where to draw that line? Who's sensationalizing what and at what level? It can be hard to differentiate through media channels unless you are on the front lines battling for what you believe in as GS8 said.