[highfive]

@Reuters: #BREAKING: Malaysian plane was brought down by a ground-to-air missile: Interior Ministry adviser, quoted by Interfax

Wtf. Shitty year for Malaysian airlines

[dangonay]

WOW. When I first saw the headlines I thought they solved the mystery of the missing airline. Two planes down in such a short time is unheard of.

Now with this happening close to an area where there's military action, one has to wonder if it was actually shot down by accident?

[JDMDreams]

^^ I thought there was updates too :(

[murd0c]

Reports: Malaysian passenger plane shot down in Ukraine - News - MSN CA (http://news.ca.msn.com/world/politics/reports-malaysian-passenger-plane-shot-down-in-ukraine-1)

A Malaysian passenger airliner with 295 people on board crashed near the Russian border in Ukraine on Thursday, according to a report from Reuters.

A tweet from Malaysia Airlines says it has lost contact of MH17 from Amsterdam. The last known position was over Ukrainian airspace.

The Toronto Star reports on its online site that Anton Gerashenko, an adviser to Ukraine’s Interior Minister, said on his Facebook page the plane was flying at an altitude of 10,000 metres when it was hit by a missile fired from a Buk launcher.

The plane was flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, Reuters source said. Reuters could not immediately confirm the report.

The source said the plane came down 50 km short of entering Russian airspace.

The plane appeared to have come down in a region of military action where Ukrainian government forces are battling pro-Russian separatists.

[stump]

WOW. When I first saw the headlines I thought they solved the mystery of the missing airline. Two planes down in such a short time is unheard of.

Now with this happening close to an area where there's military action, one has to wonder if it was actually shot down by accident?

Definitely a possibility. Both Ukraine and Russians use the Buk launcher according to Wiki which has a long enough range for civilian airliners.

Terrible news. :( Maybe one of the nato countries had an AWACS plane up on regular duty and they can see what happened.

[kunoman1]

Shit I thought this was about the Ukraninan fighter jet that got shot down

BBC News - Ukraine conflict: Russia accused of shooting down jet (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28345039)

Thats brutal

[EmperorIS]

I wonder if this incident will be conveniently enough for the international intervention in to the Ukraine and Russian conflict.

[Lomac]

WOW. When I first saw the headlines I thought they solved the mystery of the missing airline. Two planes down in such a short time is unheard of.

Now with this happening close to an area where there's military action, one has to wonder if it was actually shot down by accident?

It's unfortunately not the first time a passenger jet has been shot down around a war zone. :okay:

50 km's from entering Russian air space. Gotta wonder which side shot it down. Not to sound like CIC here but one possibility is that Ukraine took a pot shot at it so close to the border in order to make it seem like the Russians took it down. Conversely, Russia might have been trying to hail it before entering their air space, couldn't get a hold of them (possibly language or radio issue) and decided to fire at it.

[Vale46Rossi]

Ugh, really shitty year for Malaysian Airline.

[CP.AR]

Fuck its not a good year for aviation...

[xpl0sive]

I wonder if this incident will be conveniently enough for the international intervention in to the Ukraine and Russian conflict.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was a US missile that was fired from Ukraine. US is looking for any excuse to intervene.

[StylinRed]

my god, that's horrific

last I can recall of something like this happening is when the US shot down an Iranian jetliner flying to Dubai and before that the USSR shot down a korean jet headed to the US

[xpl0sive]

Now they are going to say there was some important Chinese person on board to try turn China against Russia

[Boostslut]

Fuck, this makes me so mad. I feel for the families of the victims. They they didn't feel any pain. Those people didn't deserve to die.

[melloman]

This of all: RIP.

Now then:
So who's going to intervene? Any ideas?

I know China WILL NOT touch Russia, as China just signed the 30 year deal with Russia for $400 billion of natural gas.

[GS8]

Terrible news.

Looks like every network is covering this story. Right now, it's the blame game over who did it but as information comes in, I think some serious shit will go down.

I was going to say INB4 conspiracy theories but well....

[vafanculo]

At least the families will have closure this time around

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

maybe there are multiple malaysian airlines pilots working to allah akbar together.

[v_tec]

What a bunch of fucktards

http://gfx.nrk.no//QfQOXYbP2q9QG5M89fUTIgV4YAAQBqT5klF3xpGu25-Q

[gilly]

Rip. sad sad news. :(

[BillyBishop]

The international response aside, it will be very interesting to see how the investigation itself pans out.

Flight plans are carefully structured in collaboration with the civil aviation authority of each state that the flight will travel over - in this case the Russian Federal Air Transport Authority. Overflight schedules are created and approved for each season. (i.e.: For summer 2014, MH17 departing EHAM is approved.) Absolutely no flight is dispatched unless the route is an approved one.

[N8]

RIP :(

[xpl0sive]

multiple news agencies have confirmed that the Ukranian/Russian airspace has been declared a no-fly zone for a while now. Whoever plotted that flight path is either an idiot or did so on purpose

[v_tec]

LifeNews ????????? ????? ? ????? ???????? "??????" - ?????? ?? ??????? ???????? ? LIFE | NEWS (http://lifenews.ru/news/136816)

[xpl0sive]

Click at your own risk


http://lifenewscontent.ru/static/posts/2014/7/136811/07df5e85b93f70c9ffcb4b6e2f0cc846.jpg

http://lifenewscontent.ru/static/posts/2014/7/136811/e2714cc2f19d0dfdde4865f6976ed339.jpg

[BillyBishop]

multiple news agencies have confirmed that the Ukranian/Russian airspace has been declared a no-fly zone for a while now. Whoever plotted that flight path is either an idiot or did so on purpose

Sources? Legitimately interested, I can't find anything so far.

[xpl0sive]

It's all over TV right now. flip to any news channel. They clearly stated that the area was a no-fly zone

[68style]

I don't think that's true at all.

Lufthansa just announced that they are diverting 4 planes scheduled to fly through that airspace today... same with Virgin. No way that airspace was "closed"

[meme405]

xpl0sive - Spoiler your post with the images, and atleast give a warning about the fact they are pretty graphic.

The images don't bother me, but there are some younger, and I am sure there are more squeamish members on the boards who would rather not see that shit. Hell even I could have done without seeing it (although I would have clicked on the spoiler anyway).

[bcedhk]

???????????? ????? ? ????? ???????? "??????" - ?????? ?? ??????? ???????? ? LIFE | NEWS (http://lifenews.ru/news/136823)

got goosebumps when they showed the passport IDs :heckno:

[BillyBishop]

It's all over TV right now. flip to any news channel. They clearly stated that the area was a no-fly zone

New agencies often "clearly state" things, especially when news is just breaking. They aren't a source.

[highfive]

Crucial Air Route Goes Through Ukrainian Airspace - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/crucial-air-route-goes-through-ukrainian-airspace-2014-7)

In regards to flight route.

[godwin]

Note it only applies to American carriers / pilots. FAA doesn't have jurisdiction over rest of the world unlike what the world seems to believe.

The FAA's Notice Prohibiting Airline Flights Over Ukraine - James Fallows - The Atlantic (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/AtlanticScienceAndTechnology/~3/K9gcDUGN-ww/story01.htm)

Many crucial questions about the tragic/disastrous apparent shootdown of the Malaysia Airlines flight in Ukraine are still unanswerable. Who did it? Why? With what warning? Or repercussions?

But at this point one question can be answered: Did aviation authorities know that this was a dangerous area?

Yes, they most certainly did. Nearly three months ago, on the "Special Rules" section of its site, the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration put out an order prohibiting American pilots, airlines, charter carriers, and everyone else over whom the FAA has direct jurisdiction, from flying over parts of Ukraine.

Here is how the "who this applies to" part of FAA NOTAM 4/7677 looked, in the ALL-CAPs typeface of many FAA communications and in the language the FAA uses to say "this means YOU!"

A. APPLICABILITY.
THIS SPECIAL FEDERAL AVIATION REGULATION (SFAR) APPLIES TO THE FOLLOWING PERSONS:

1) ALL U.S. AIR CARRIERS AND U.S. COMMERCIAL OPERATORS;

(2) ALL PERSONS EXERCISING THE PRIVILEGES OF AN AIRMAN CERTIFICATE ISSUED BY THE FAA, EXCEPT SUCH PERSONS OPERATING U.S. REGISTERED AIRCRAFT FOR A FOREIGN AIR CARRIER; AND

(3) ALL OPERATORS OF U.S. REGISTERED CIVIL AIRCRAFT, EXCEPT WHERE THE OPERATOR OF SUCH AIRCRAFT IS A FOREIGN AIR CARRIER.

And here is how the "these are the areas to stay out of" part of the order was written, everything specified as Longitude/Latitude coordinates:

(D), NO PERSON DESCRIBED IN PARAGRAPH (A) MAY CONDUCT FLIGHT OPERATIONS IN THE PORTION OF THE SIMFEROPOL (UKFV) FIR WITHIN THE FOLLOWING LATERAL LIMITS: 454500N 0345800E-460900N 0360000E-460000N 0370000E-452700N 0364100E-452242N 0364100E-451824N 0363524E-451442N 0363542E-451218N END PART 1 OF 4. 23 APR 22:30 2014 UNTIL 1504270001. CREATED: 23 APR 22:16 2014

FDC 4/7667 (A0012/14) - null AIRSPACE SPECIAL NOTICE UKRAINE 0363200E-450418N 0363418E-445600N 0363700E-443100N 0364000E-424400N 0361600E-424700N 0340000E-424800N 0304500E-434100N 0303200E-441500N 0302400E-444600N 0300900E-455400N 0322500E-454900N 0324700E-455400N 0330600E-455600N 0332700E-455900N 0332900E-THEN ALONG THE CRIMEA BORDER TO 454500N 0345800E.

Until only a few years ago, most FAA notices—of restricted air space, of special weather hazards, of other areas-of-concern—were promulgated in this same indecipherable Long/Lat form. Now the FAA distributes most information on U.S. airspace via easily understandable graphical overlays. For instance, its Special Use Airspace site, which you are supposed to check before every flight, gives you a color-coded illustration of all active military airspace, restricted zones, etc, at any given time. Here is how part of it looks right now, mainly showing active "Military Operations Areas" in the South. This is a screen shot, but on the real map you can click on each one to see its vertical limits. For instance, those large ones over northeastern Mississippi go from 8000 feet upward, so we were able to fly under them in our recent visits to the "Golden Triangle" cities in the same area.

I have not yet seen a map that plots the Long/Lat points of the Ukraine no-fly order onto the route the Malaysian plane flew, and where it was apparently shot down. When I learn of one, I will provide an update. (Credit to Jad Mouawad of NYT for seeing this notice before I did.)

The point for the moment: the FAA "Special Rules" section tells U.S. pilots and aircraft not to fly over trouble spots ranging from North Korea to Yemen to Syria to Iraq. And since last April it has told them not to fly over certain parts of Ukraine.

Sources? Legitimately interested, I can't find anything so far.

[godwin]

Air Traffic map of the area and video etc at the link.

Was MH17 flying through warzone to save fuel? | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696321/Why-MH17-flying-warzone-European-safety-watchdogs-warned-against-flying-Ukraine-April.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490)


Was MH17 flying through warzone to save fuel? Planes in area of crash site pictured flying away from Ukraine as questions are raised as to why they were travelling over country

By Darren Boyle

Published: 17:26 GMT, 17 July 2014 | Updated: 18:37 GMT, 17 July 2014

Air accident investigators are planning to inspect the proposed flight plan lodged by pilots on board Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 to see if they flew over a warzone to save fuel.

The 17-year-old jet was shot down over eastern Ukraine despite British, European and US commercial aircraft being warned against using the airspace since April.

One of the major questions is whether the Malaysian flight crew received the warning from flight safety officials about the risk to safety.

One aviation expert revealed: 'Malaysia Airlines, like a number of other carriers, have been continuing to use it because it is a shorter route, which means less fuel and therefore less money.'

The jet was travelling at 33,000 feet at 490 knots when it disappeared from radar screens while approaching the Russian border.

It is believed that the Malaysian Airlines pilots ignored several warnings to avoid the airspace over Ukraine. It is understood the Malaysian Airline jet used the Ukrainian route to save fuel as diverting north or south would have taken longer.

In April, the European Aviation and Safety Agency warned: ‘Taking into consideration the recent publication by the Russian Federation of a series of notices to airmen (NOTAMs) modifying the Simferopol FIR which is under the responsibility of Ukraine, and their intent to provide air traffic services (ATS) within this airspace, the Agency draws the aviation communities’ attention to the possible existence of serious risks to the safety of international civil flights.

‘Due to the unsafe situation where more than one ATS provider may be controlling flights within the same airspace from 3 April 2014, 0600 UTC onwards, consideration should be given to measures to avoid the airspace and circumnavigate the Simferopol FIR with alternative routings. ‘

On July 8, the State Aviation Administration of Ukraine closed its airspace to civilian aircraft after rebels shot a military transport aircraft that was flying over 20,000 feet.
The radar route of Malaysian Airlines plane MH17

The restriction warned commercial aircraft against using Ukranian airspace.

A Notice to Airmen, seen by Mail Online warned: ‘Due to the potential for conflicting air traffic control (ATC) instructions from Ukrainian and Russian authorities and for the related potential for misidentification of civil aircraft, UK aircraft operators are strongly advised to avoid, until further notice, the airspace over Crimea, the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov.’

The EASA supplied airlines with a list of alternative routes avoiding the conflict zone.

The US Federal Aviation Authority had also banned its aircraft from the Crimea region.

The suspected shooting down of a large passenger plane while flying at altitude presents airlines and their passengers with an extremely serious new development in air travel, according to aviation experts.

Passenger plane 'shot down on Russia/Ukraine border'
The European Air Safety Authority issued airlines with a number of alternative routes avoiding Ukraine

The European Air Safety Authority issued airlines with a number of alternative routes avoiding Ukraine

Norman Shanks, the former head of group security at airports group BAA, and professor of aviation security at Coventry University, said there had been suggestions airlines had been warned to avoid the route because of the violence below.

But many carriers continued to use it because it was shorter and therefore cheaper.

He said: 'It is a busy aviation route and there have been suggestions that a notice was given to aviators telling airlines to avoid that particular area.

'But Malaysia Airlines, like a number of other carriers, have been continuing to use it because it is a shorter route, which means less fuel and therefore less money.

'I expect the area will be declared a no fly zone and aircraft will have no choice but to take a different, longer route.'

Prof Shanks said it was 'extremely unusual' for political disputes to spill over and endanger the lives of civilians travelling in commercial flights in the skies above.

And he suggested those behind the shooting 'deliberately' targeted a passenger plane as it would have been obvious from its appearance that it was a commercial aircraft and posed no military threat.

He said: 'This is probably the first time this has happened in recent history. The aircraft was flying at such a height that it is unlikely to have been a military aircraft.

'You would be able to tell it was a civilian aircraft not a military aircraft with the naked eye because of the jet plumes behind it.

'This would almost certainly have to be a deliberate act, for whatever reason - we can only speculate.

'It should have been quite visible to people on the ground that it was a civilian aircraft, by the size of it and the shape of it. Anyone who has looked at a civilian aircraft or large military aircraft will know the difference.'

He said the plane's black box could contain vital clues to help piece together what the pilots knew during their final moments in the cockpit.

But he warned that tracing the flight recorders could be very tricky as they are probably 'now in a war zone' somewhere in the Ukraine.

He added: 'The pilots and passengers could well have been totally unaware that this missile was heading for them.'

If today's incident is confirmed as a deliberate act then Ukraine airspace could well be closed down, meaning diversions for UK carriers who currently fly to and over the area.

‘This could be a very serious development,’ said David Kaminski-Morrow, air transport editor of Flightglobal magazine.

He went on: ‘If reports are true, we are not talking about small-arm fire but serious weaponry. Normally even if planes fly over a war zone they can go high enough for the conflict not to be a worry.

‘Any decision about the opening or closing of Ukranian airspace will be a matter for the Ukrainians. It could well be that part or all of that airspace will now be closed.

‘Also, individual airlines, including UK carriers, could decide to detour around Ukraine.’

Mr Kaminski-Morrow continued: ‘It's really quite incredible that it should be Malaysia Airlines involved in this, after what happened earlier in the year.

‘This is not a small airline on a faraway route. This was a major airline flying from a European destination to a capital in the Far East. There must be serious concerns about how the airline can recover from this.

‘There will obviously be political as well as aviation concerns from all this. This will run and run.’

[distanc3]

Some more info
What We Know So Far About the Passenger Jet Allegedly Shot Down in Ukraine (http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2014/07/17/what_we_know_so_far_about_the_passenger_jet_allege dly_shot_down_in_ukraine)

[Anjew]

damn, more justification for more sanctions against Russia. This is going to get ugly....

[Manic!]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bswg7UGCQAAtv47.jpg

Translated:

Message from rebels:
AN-26 plane was just shot down in the Torez area, it went down near the "Progress" mine. We warned them not to fly in our skies. Here is a video proof of it being shot. It went down behind slagheap, no houses damaged. No civilian casualties. There is also information about the second plane shot down, possibly Sukhoi jet"


Not 100% confirmed.

[capt_slo]

The downing of the Antonov-65 is not in question from what I've seen....just how it was brought down. It happened Monday.
Ukraine suspects Moscow shot down military plane near Russian border, saying aircraft was too high for rebels? weapons | National Post (http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/14/ukraine-accuses-russia-of-violating-its-airspace-allowing-weapons-across-border-as-crisis-escalates/)

Kiev also reports that two of their SU-25 fighter jets have been targeted, one downed on Wednesday.

Kyiv accuses Russia of shooting down Ukrainian fighter jet with air-to-air missile | National Post (http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/17/kyiv-accuses-russia-of-shooting-down-ukrainian-fighter-jet-with-air-to-air-missile/)

[StylinRed]

Ukraines foreign minister is blaming pro-russian ukrainian separatists on CNN currently

CNN/US is saying separatists or russia (but they think russia) CNN won't even mention Ukraine as a possibility :suspicious:

[highfive]

damn, more justification for more sanctions against Russia. This is going to get ugly....

The ones Obama set for Russia yesterday were pretty bad apparently. Not sure if this is related to that? Put on CIC's hat. :suspicious:

[Manic!]

Ukraines foreign minister is blaming pro-russian ukrainian separatists on CNN currently

CNN/US is saying separatists or russia (but they think russia) CNN won't even mention Ukraine as a possibility :suspicious:

Because zero evidence points to the Ukraine. You want CNN to make stuff up. Also CNN has not said who shot the plane down.

[StylinRed]

As an aside Israel is using this news to cover their breaking of their "humanitarian ceasefire" agreements to launch their ground offensive


Because zero evidence points to the Ukraine. You want CNN to make stuff up. Also CNN has not said who shot the plane down.

CNN was speaking hypothetically on the possibilities of who brought the plane down (it's not even confirmed that it was shot down) and in their musings they still wouldn't suggest Ukraine

however a guest reporter did so just now (suggesting they don't know where the missile came from if one did be it ukraine, separatists, russia)

[Manic!]

As an aside Israel is using this news to cover their breaking of their "humanitarian ceasefire" agreements to launch their ground offensive




the ceasefire was only for 5 hours I believe.

It has been confirmed the plane was shot down.

[BillyBishop]

Russia issued this NOTAM (Notice to Airmen) at 0000Z - approximately 10 hours before the flight took off.

V6158/14 NOTAMN
Q) URRV/QARLC/IV/NBO/E/000/530/4818N04023E095
A) URRV B) 1407170000 C) 1408312359 EST
E) DUE TO COMBAT ACTIONS ON THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE NEAR THE
STATE BORDER WITH THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION AND THE FACTS OF FIRING
FROM THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE TOWARDS THE TERRITORY OF
RUSSIAN FEDERATION, TO ENSURE INTL FLT SAFETY, ATS RTE SEGMENTS
CLSD AS FLW:
A100 MIMRA - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND) ,
B145 KANON - ASMIL,
G247 MIMRA - BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA),
A87 TAMAK - SARNA,
A102 PENEG - NALEM,
A225 GUKOL - ODETA,
A712 TAMAK - SAMBEK NDB (SB),
B493 FASAD - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND),
B947 TAMAK - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND),
G118 LATRI - BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA),
G534 MIMRA - TOROS,
G904 FASAD - SUTAG,
R114 BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA)-NALEM.
SFC - FL320

This was the flight's ATS flight plan:
N0490F310 ARNEM UL620 SUVOX UZ713 OSN UL980 MOBSA DCT POVEL DCT
SUI L980 UTOLU/N0490F330 L980 LDZ M70 BEMBI L980 PEKIT/N0480F350
L980 TAMAK/N0480F350 A87 TIROM/N0490F350 A87 MAMED B449 RANAH L750
ZB G201 BI DCT MURLI DCT TIGER/N0490F370 L333 KKJ L759 PUT R325 VIH
A464 DAKUS DCT


The bolded sections are what are applicable. Though the flight was planned to go along that route, it planned to at FL350 (35,000 feet). Additionally, according to ADS-B data from FlightAware and FlightRadar24 the aircraft was last reported at FL330, above the approaching closed airway and thus already in a position to comply with the NOTAM.
Regardless, from my understanding the segment in question is in Russian airspace while the airplane went down in Ukraine. It hadn't even gone that far.

[nsx042003]

what in the fuck

These stories make me mad, so helpless...I can feel the pain

RIP

[StylinRed]

the ceasefire was only for 5 hours I believe.
yes but the agreement was that Hamas would only accept the temporary ceasefire if it wasn't a ploy for Israel to prepare a ground offensive and Israel agreed and said to suggest that it was a ploy is ridiculous...but lo and behold


It has been confirmed the plane was shot down.
oh? i must have missed that was watching the gaza coverage
damn wonder how this is going to play out now, wonder if we'll see an international ground offensive against separatists

[hud 91gt]

I hate notams like that. Says surface to 320. Is that for the last airway, or for all of the above. So vague, and so easily misinterpreted. Personally I'd read it as surface to 320 on all the routes listed, but could easily be the other way around.

Either way, disappointing event for sure as I heard it minutes after landing on an overseas flight. Scary, and also very bad luck for Malaysian airlines.

[multicartual]

Phew! Thank goodness I'm 36 so I'm too old for the draft!

[68style]

Phew! Thank goodness I'm 36 so I'm too old for the draft!

Aww snap, we're the same age? How come I don't got P-p-car

[Harvey Specter]

High res pictures from the crash site (no body pics);

?????? ??????? - ?????????????? ??? ???????? ?????????? (http://drugoi.livejournal.com/4014093.html)

[Gululu]

my thoughts on what happened was Ukraine wants to seek revenge against Russia for shooting down its su-25 which happened earlier. mistakenly identified mh17 for russian jets, shot it down, then realized it had committed a big crime. next, decided to play along by reporting the incident acting all innocently, then accuses russian militia and/or pro-russian separatists. the us mostly likely had a role in this. possible mh370 suffered similar fate.


I wouldn't be surprised if it was a US missile that was fired from Ukraine. US is looking for any excuse to intervene.

i think its highly likely the US played a role in this once again. The US or nato was in the area using ukraine to shoot Putin's presidential plane which happened to fly through the area half an hour prior. Obama wants Putin dead. ukraine mistakenly shoots MH17.

http://rt.com/files/news/2a/66/80/00/33.jpg

[GabAlmighty]

And here come the armchair generals!

[EmperorIS]

And here come the armchair generals!

C&C Generals: Zero Hour Trailer USA - YouTube

[68style]

Haha yah... the USA with all its technology mistakes the Russian presidential plane for a Malaysian jetliner. No.

[StylinRed]

my thoughts on what happened was Ukraine wants to seek revenge against Russia for shooting down its su-25 which happened earlier. mistakenly identified mh17 for russian jets, shot it down, then realized it had committed a big crime. next, decided to play along by reporting the incident acting all innocently, then accuses russian militia and/or pro-russian separatists. the us mostly likely had a role in this. possible mh370 suffered similar fate.

i think its highly likely the US played a role in this once again. The US or nato was in the area using ukraine to shoot Putin's presidential plane which happened to fly through the area half an hour prior. Obama wants Putin dead. ukraine mistakenly shoots MH17.

http://rt.com/files/news/2a/66/80/00/33.jpg


Sounds like a great b-movie

[Manic!]

my thoughts on what happened was Ukraine wants to seek revenge against Russia for shooting down its su-25 which happened earlier. mistakenly identified mh17 for russian jets, shot it down, then realized it had committed a big crime. next, decided to play along by reporting the incident acting all innocently, then accuses russian militia and/or pro-russian separatists. the us mostly likely had a role in this. possible mh370 suffered similar fate.




i think its highly likely the US played a role in this once again. The US or nato was in the area using ukraine to shoot Putin's presidential plane which happened to fly through the area half an hour prior. Obama wants Putin dead. ukraine mistakenly shoots MH17.

http://rt.com/files/news/2a/66/80/00/33.jpg

Legally the U.S. president can't kill a head of state.


Letter of the Law | Foreign Affairs (http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/61743/richard-a-wiley/letter-of-the-law)

In a time of "war" (declared or authorized by Congress or by the president's exercising his constitutional power to defend the United States against an attack), targeted killings -- including the deliberate killing of a head of state -- would be lawful. But absent a state of war, the deliberate killing of the leader of another state, a nonstate group, or a group of terrorists would be an assassination, that is, a killing done for political purposes. Under the administration of President Gerald Ford, a task force headed by then Attorney General Edward Levi exhaustively discussed those distinctions. Those deliberations led to a flat ban on assassination, which was issued in 1976 as Executive Order 11905. The executive order was a reaction to the various attempts of U.S. intelligence agencies to assassinate foreign leaders in the 1960s and 1970s without the sanction of anything resembling a state of war. As Byman acknowledges, subsequent presidents have upheld that ban. It is true that subsequent administrations have justified attempts to kill heads of state even absent a state of war without changing the text of the ban, but such exceptions have not created a new rule.

[Harvey Specter]

.

Social media posts by pro-Russian insurgents - most of them hastily removed - suggest the rebels thought they had shot down a Ukrainian army plane before realising in horror that it was in fact a packed Malaysian airliner.

The Twitter and blog messages were immediately publicised by top Kiev officials in their furious information war with the Kremlin for global opinion and the hearts and minds of ethnic Russians caught in the worst East-West crisis since the Cold War.

Confirmation of separatist fighters killing 298 passengers and crew on a flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur would further complicate Russian President Vladimir Putin's efforts to paint their uprising as a fight for self-determination.

Russia's state media avoided any mention of the controversial posts and instead reported militia leaders' later charges that the Ukrainian air force had shot down the Boeing 777 liner instead.


'We downed an An-26'

The rebels first claimed to have downed at least one Ukrainian army plane over the strife-torn eastern rustbelt on late Thursday afternoon.

The VK social networking page of Igor Strelkov - "defence minister" of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic - first announced: "We just downed an An-26 near (the town of) Torez."

"And here is a video confirming that a 'bird fell'," said the post.

The website then provides a link identical to that published by Ukrainian media in reports about the Malaysia Airlines jet.

The video shows locals referring to the same coal mine in the region mentioned by Strelkov.

The strongly pro-Kiev Ukrainska Pravda news site later posted an audio recording of what it claimed were the intercepted field communications between rebels and a Russian agent discussing the downing.

"We just downed a plane," a rebel the recording identifies as Bes (Demon) tells an alleged Russian military intelligency officer.

Another recording shows one alleged fighter reporting from the site of the plane's remains that it was "100 percent certain this is a civilian aircraft."

He spits out a Russian expletive when asked whether there were a lot of passengers on board.


'We have seized missiles'

The VK post was soon removed -- but not before its screen grab was captured and distributed in an English-language press release by the military headquarters of Kiev's eastern campaign.

The comments attributed to Strelkov did not identify what missile was used to down the craft at what Kiev said was an altitude of 10,000 metres (33,000 feet).

But a message on the official Twitter account of the Donetsk People's Republic had announced hours earlier that insurgents had seized a series of Russian-made Buk systems capable of soaring to that height.

"@dnrpress: self-propelled Buk surface-to-air missile systems have been seized by the DNR from (Ukrainian) surface-to-air missile regiment A1402," said the post.

That tweet was later deleted as well.


Putin says Kiev responsible

Ukraine's pro-Western President Petro Poroshenko quickly called the incident a "terrorist act" and said he "could not exclude" that the plane was shot down by the insurgents.

But Putin said the incident would have never have happened had Poroshenko not ripped up a brief truce agreement and "resumed military activities in southeastern Ukraine".

Both separatist leaders and Russian defence officials also took pains to implicate Poroshenko's forces and erase all memories of the insurgents' initial pronouncements about downing a Ukrainian transport plane.

Rebel Donetsk prime minister Oleksandr Borodai told Russian media that his units did not have equipment capable of reaching the cruising altitude of a Boeing.

Borodai said it was "technically impossible" for the pro-Russian gunmen to have launched such a high-altitude strike.

And the Russian defence ministry argued that it was far more likely for the Ukrainian military to have fired the Buk missile.

"Statements by Kiev officials that such systems... were not used in air attacks arouse serious doubts," the Russian defence ministry said in a statement.
- See more at: Deleted posts suggest Ukraine rebels downed Malaysian jet MH17 in error - Hindustan Times (http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/mh17/deleted-posts-suggest-ukraine-rebels-downed-malaysian-jet-mh17-in-error/article1-1241706.aspx#sthash.VoGoLShp.dpuf)

[Harvey Specter]

Dutch passenger on MH13 posts picture of the plane before boarding and puts caption ""If it disappears, it looks like this".

https://www.facebook.com/cor.pan.7

Eerie.

[nma]

Threads like these bring out the true idiots in RS.. Sad day. RIP

[Drow]

Dat spoiler picture... Jesus christ

[nubtub]

298 (283 passengers and 15 crew) in total confirmed dead. Malaysian Airlines did not count 3 infants on the official manifest. Horrible year for Malaysia. Holy. Confirmed to be shot down and broke up in flight.

[willystyle]

It's interesting that every time a member proposes a theory, it gets frowned upon by the masses because it's not a popular opinion. Ironically, inventions and innovations are byproducts of theories prior to creation.

[GGnoRE]

Putin is claiming that the Ukrainian government is responsible as this incident wouldn't have occurred if they have stopped the conflict in the east. What a scumbag move after supplying the rebels with the military technology to shoot down the aircraft.

Its either that or back to the conspiracy theory that this is planned by the US or EU or Ukraine.

I am interested to see how the EU and US take more sanctions on Russia as they have just recently escalated their economic sanctions before this incident.

[twitchyzero]

love it when these threads pop up...everyone starts using pilot jargon.

anyways, what are the chances MAS will come back from the two incidents this year? Is there a good chance they'll go bankrupt soon?

[Tim Budong]

I choose to sit back and ...

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11114/111142124/3898460-8864152835-

It's sad, I'll just watch

[v_tec]

anyways, what are the chances MAS will come back from the two incidents this year? Is there a good chance they'll go bankrupt soon?

They are pretty much already bankrupt yearss ago if it wasn't of the help of the government :pokerface:

[wreck]

meet me at da clubbbb.. shit is going dowwnnn

[SkinnyPupp]

my thoughts on what happened was Ukraine wants to seek revenge against Russia for shooting down its su-25 which happened earlier. mistakenly identified mh17 for russian jets, shot it down, then realized it had committed a big crime. next, decided to play along by reporting the incident acting all innocently, then accuses russian militia and/or pro-russian separatists. the us mostly likely had a role in this. possible mh370 suffered similar fate.




i think its highly likely the US played a role in this once again. The US or nato was in the area using ukraine to shoot Putin's presidential plane which happened to fly through the area half an hour prior. Obama wants Putin dead. ukraine mistakenly shoots MH17.

http://rt.com/files/news/2a/66/80/00/33.jpg
Is Charles your new best friend?

[SkinnyPupp]

love it when these threads pop up...everyone starts using pilot jargon.

anyways, what are the chances MAS will come back from the two incidents this year? Is there a good chance they'll go bankrupt soon?
We do have several pilots who have been helpful in the past. Unfortunately I can never remember who they are until they contribute

[Yodamaster]

Is it odd that I do not find those images disturbing in any way shape or form? Srs.

[StylinRed]

Is it odd that I do not find those images disturbing in any way shape or form? Srs.

not with that avatar :P

and the fact that the media has done a good job desensitizing people over the years

[punkwax]

Yes. Srs.

[dangonay]

A radar system saw a surface-to-air missile system turn on and track an aircraft right before the plane went down, the senior U.S. official said. A second system saw a heat signature at the time the airliner was hit, the official said. The United States is analyzing the trajectory of the missile to try to learn where the attack came from, the official said

I found this interesting. I'm curious what "systems" the US is talking about and in what areas were they (AWAC, satellite or other). And the bit about the "trajectory" is also interesting. It's almost like the US is saying "we know where it came from, so we'll soon be able to figure out who fired it."

[SkinnyPupp]

not with that avatar :P

and the fact that the media has done a good job desensitizing people over the years
Who's "The Media"?

We're desensitized because there's WAY more information available to us than there has ever been in human history. It's not some "organization" looking to do it as their "job", it's just part of how culture has changed over the years.

[StylinRed]

Who's "The Media"?


all encompassing, i meant exactly what you said it was just easier to plaster it with "the media"

[SkinnyPupp]

all encompassing, i meant exactly what you said it was just easier to plaster it with "the media"
Well you said "they" were doing a "good job" so I don't think your inference was the same as mine at all. You made it sound like there was some "task" that a "group" was performing, in order to desensitize us for some purpose.

There is no "they" it's all just information that is available for everyone to see.

[godwin]

Russia must be sighing a big sigh of relief as there is no Chinese nationals on the plane.. if that happens the shit might had gotten real.

Too bad there might be a few prominent AIDS researchers among the passengers as AIDS2014 is due to kick of on Sunday.

Malaysia Airlines senior vice president Huib Gorter confirmed passenger numbers on the plane on Thursday night. He said there were at least:

154 Dutch
27 Australians
45 Malaysians (including 15 crew)
11 Indonesians
Nine Britons
Four Germans
Four Belgians
Three Phillippinos
One Canadian

Three infants are among the dead.

There were a further 41 passengers whose nationality was not known on Thursday night. All the 15 flight crew were Malaysian.

[Ludepower]

No Russians Americans Chinese...

[StylinRed]

Well you said "they" were doing a "good job" so I don't think your inference was the same as mine at all. You made it sound like there was some "task" that a "group" was performing, in order to desensitize us for some purpose.

There is no "they" it's all just information that is available for everyone to see.

im too tired for this...but i think you're reading into it too much

if the media wasn't showing/creating more and more blood/gore we wouldn't be becoming desensitized

the media as a whole is run by a handful of companies (even less if Murdoch gets to acquire Time Warner) they are separate from us (the general public)...i see no qualms in using "they"

the information as you put it has always been out there but if it werent the media as a whole relaying/creating that to/for the public we, in general, wouldn't be desensitized its resulted in a cultural shift certainly, but again that's thanks to, they, the media


if i wanted to be anal (as you seem to be) i might take issue with my using the word "job" and my response would be :rolleyes: whatever :P

[Ronin]

This sounds like something that would happen in 24. Rapidly destabilizing area of the world with major superpowers on both sides and some sort of shadowy organization covertly shoots down the plane with Americans onboard to trigger a war.

Jack Bauer didn't get there in time.

But seriously, this is terrible...Malaysia just can't catch a break.

[SkinnyPupp]

im too tired for this...but i think you're reading into it too much

if the media wasn't showing/creating more and more blood/gore we wouldn't be becoming desensitized

the media as a whole is run by a handful of companies (even less if Murdoch gets to acquire Time Warner) they are separate from us (the general public)...i see no qualms in using "they"

the information as you put it has always been out there but if it werent the media as a whole relaying/creating that to/for the public we, in general, wouldn't be desensitized its resulted in a cultural shift certainly, but again that's thanks to, they, the media


if i wanted to be anal (as you seem to be) i might take issue with my using the word "job" and my response would be :rolleyes: whatever :P
So it's Rupert Murdoch, I see

[Manic!]

So it's Rupert Murdoch, I see

........

[v_tec]

http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/mh17.html

Friday, July 18, 07:30 AM GMT +0800 Media Statement 2 : MH17 Incident
Media Statement 2 : MH17 Incident

As opposed to the earlier statement, the flight was carrying a total number of 298 people – comprising 283 passengers including three infants of various nationalities and 15 crew of Malaysian nationality. Some of the nationalities of the passengers are yet to be determined.


Friday, July 18, 01:30 PM GMT +0800 Media Statement 3 : MH17 Incident
Media Statement 3 : MH17 Incident

The B777-200 aircraft bearing registration no. 9M-MRD that operated MH17 on 17 July, 2014 had a clean maintenance record. The aircraft’s last maintenance check was on 11 July 2014. The next check was due on 27 Aug 2014. The maintenance was conducted at Malaysia Airlines’ hangar at KLIA. The aircraft had a clean bill of health.

[...]

The B777-200 uses the Rolls-Royce Trent-800 engine and has a 282 seat capacity.

Assuming infants didn't require any seats. That's a very full flight :okay:

[bing]

^Infants don't need their own seat.

[nah]

http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/mh17.html





Assuming infants didn't require any seats. That's a very full flight :okay:

It was a code share flight with KLM, thus all the Dutch nationals.

[multicartual]

I'm going to light a candle and send those 295 people some love

RIP

Absolutely horrible death :(

[v_tec]

I'm going to light a candle and send those 295 people some love

RIP

Absolutely horrible death :(

No love for the 3 infants? :okay:

[Harvey Specter]

One thing I found very odd from the footage and pictures floating around is the passports. How can the passports be in such pristine condition? Even my passport doesn't look as new as the ones shown in the video footage.

And in the beginning of the clip, the guy goes into a truck and grabs the passports. I found this to be really odd.

Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash || Passports of the doomed passengers on board MH17 found - YouTube

[threezero]

Woman loses relatives in 2 Malaysia air disasters (http://news.yahoo.com/twelve-bodies-found-massachusetts-storage-unit-prosecutors-130126399.html)


:(

want are the chances… i'm surprise their family still takes malaysian airline after the first tragedy.

[CRS]

Woman loses relatives in 2 Malaysia air disasters (http://news.yahoo.com/twelve-bodies-found-massachusetts-storage-unit-prosecutors-130126399.html)


:(

want are the chances… i'm surprise their family still takes malaysian airline after the first tragedy.

With the information that is available right now, I would say that both of these flights were complete freak incidents that could happen to any airline.

It isn't like Malaysian Air didn't do their due diligence or hired some rec pilot to fly their planes. Again, with what we know so far, neither of these incidents appear to be the fault of the particular airline.

(You link also appears to be linking the wrong story?)

[FishTaco]

One thing I found very odd from the footage and pictures floating around is the passports. How can the passports be in such pristine condition? Even my passport doesn't look as new as the ones shown in the video footage.

And in the beginning of the clip, the guy goes into a truck and grabs the passports. I found this to be really odd.

Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash || Passports of the doomed passengers on board MH17 found - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8fhXEX_2xQ)

Passports do seem a bit minty seeing how most people keep them on their person especially when traveling to Malaysia. *Gets tinfoil hat

Footage of crash. Cannot be unseen. You were warned.

:heckno: poor bastards...
LiveLeak.com - Ukraine: *VERY GRAPHIC* MH17 crash site- charred bodies lie among burning debris

[shawnly1000]

Australian loses family in both Malaysian flight disasters; 'it's ... ripped our guts again' (http://www.vancouversun.com/news/world/Australian+loses+family+both+Malaysian+flight+disa sters/10041340/story.html)

[Infiniti]

poor bastards...

How about a poor of choice of words

[SkinnyPupp]

........
People thanking this post after you edited your original comment and replaced it with dots? :lawl:

[hud 91gt]

Russia must be sighing a big sigh of relief as there is no Chinese nationals on the plane.. if that happens the shit might had gotten real.

Too bad there might be a few prominent AIDS researchers among the passengers as AIDS2014 is due to kick of on Sunday.

Malaysia Airlines senior vice president Huib Gorter confirmed passenger numbers on the plane on Thursday night. He said there were at least:

154 Dutch
27 Australians
45 Malaysians (including 15 crew)
11 Indonesians
Nine Britons
Four Germans
Four Belgians
Three Phillippinos
One Canadian

Three infants are among the dead.

There were a further 41 passengers whose nationality was not known on Thursday night. All the 15 flight crew were Malaysian.

My girlfriend told me about the AIDS researchers as she worked/researched with one of the ones onboard. Pretty sad when you lose people who are devoting their life to help the world, and a silly "war" takes them away from us.

[underscore]

One thing I found very odd from the footage and pictures floating around is the passports. How can the passports be in such pristine condition? Even my passport doesn't look as new as the ones shown in the video footage.

And in the beginning of the clip, the guy goes into a truck and grabs the passports. I found this to be really odd.

Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash || Passports of the doomed passengers on board MH17 found - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8fhXEX_2xQ)

Maybe just media props?

[StylinRed]

People thanking this post after you edited your original comment and replaced it with dots? :lawl:

i don't know what was written before but a ...... matched my feels well :P

if he had :fulloffuck: in his comment it would have been perfect :D

[sonick]

+1 I heard about the AIDS researcher this morning on the radio, one of his colleagues who works locally spoke about him. Sad.

[nah]

One thing I found very odd from the footage and pictures floating around is the passports. How can the passports be in such pristine condition? Even my passport doesn't look as new as the ones shown in the video footage.

And in the beginning of the clip, the guy goes into a truck and grabs the passports. I found this to be really odd.

Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash || Passports of the doomed passengers on board MH17 found - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8fhXEX_2xQ)

They would be in pristine condition as people would have it in their bags. What these scumbags have done is go through everyone's personal belongings to take these passports out.

[Manic!]

Whats really sad is the bodies are still just laying there and the family's can't do anything about it.


For the passports. The BUK missile from what I understand has a proximity senor and will explode when near a plane. A passport falling from a plane would not be damaged.

[anxiety]

I hope people on board didn't have to suffer. Anyone know what happens when a passenger airplane gets shot down? Do people die instantly when the plane gets hit by the missile?

[underscore]

They would be in pristine condition as people would have it in their bags. What these scumbags have done is go through everyone's personal belongings to take these passports out.

So the miltary shou;dn't be looking for ID's? :suspicious:

[Yodamaster]

I hope people on board didn't have to suffer. Anyone know what happens when a passenger airplane gets shot down? Do people die instantly when the plane gets hit by the missile?

Some do, but not all, if the plane broke up mid air, most of the surviving passengers would probably be rendered unconscious. If the plane did not break up, and oxygen masks deployed (and worked), chances are that most passengers would still be awake.

[hchang]

One thing I found very odd from the footage and pictures floating around is the passports. How can the passports be in such pristine condition? Even my passport doesn't look as new as the ones shown in the video footage.

And in the beginning of the clip, the guy goes into a truck and grabs the passports. I found this to be really odd.

Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash || Passports of the doomed passengers on board MH17 found - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8fhXEX_2xQ)

BECAUSE ITS A CONSPIRACY CANT YOU GUYS SEE OMGEE LULZ

[Tomu]

Apparently there was a leaked phone convo between Pro-Russian separatists. Can see the convo in the link below but don't know how reliable this is.

Malaysia Airlines MH17: Phone taps point to Pro-Russian separatists | SBS News (http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/07/18/malaysia-airlines-mh17-phone-taps-point-pro-russian-separatists)

[JaPoola]

Apparently there was a leaked phone convo between Pro-Russian separatists. Can see the convo in the link below but don't know how reliable this is.

Malaysia Airlines MH17: Phone taps point to Pro-Russian separatists | SBS News (http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/07/18/malaysia-airlines-mh17-phone-taps-point-pro-russian-separatists)

How convenient.

[zilley]

RIP.

[iEatClams]

My girlfriend told me about the AIDS researchers as she worked/researched with one of the ones onboard. Pretty sad when you lose people who are devoting their life to help the world, and a silly "war" takes them away from us.

I find this to be the saddest part. A group of people spend their lives researching AIDS and helping the world. I feel the same when humanitarians and volunteers that get killed senselessly.

[Manic!]

How convenient.

You don't think the Ukrainians were listening to all communications of the rebels.

[Ronin]

This really could go either way. The US could have enough of this shit and declare fuck Russia and history will look back at MH17 as the "Assassination of Franz Ferdinand" this time around or...

...the world could look at this and go "Okay, maybe enough people have died over this useless dick waving contest..." and they find a peaceful end to all this Ukranian broohahah.

[rsx]

How convenient.

You don't think a country in the middle of a war won't tap the calls of their enemies?

[CP.AR]

I hope people on board didn't have to suffer. Anyone know what happens when a passenger airplane gets shot down? Do people die instantly when the plane gets hit by the missile?

if they were hit at 300, they would have had about 10-15 seconds of consciousness due to the lack of oxygen. Otherwise, those in the blast radius would die instantly (of course)

[pastarocket]

-heard on the news this morning that the UN Security Council had an emergency meeting to discuss what to do about this tragedy.

Some people need to stop playing the blame game until there is a detailed investigation about what went on. Although the investigation may take a long time given the size of the plane debris, the remoteness of the Ukraine area, and other factors, something has to be done ASAP!

International inspectors need to be given full access to the crash site to find the plane's flight recorders. Justice for the family and friends of people who lost their lives on that plane!

[FS1992EG]

This really could go either way. The US could have enough of this shit and declare fuck Russia and history will look back at MH17 as the "Assassination of Franz Ferdinand" this time around or...

...the world could look at this and go "Okay, maybe enough people have died over this useless dick waving contest..." and they find a peaceful end to all this Ukranian broohahah.

Well, if the EU didn't decide to bribe the Ukrainian government into a contract where the Ukrainian citizens get shitted on and the Ukrainian government gets rich, there wouldn't be a problem.

Everyone can be brought at a price, and I support Russia on defending the Ukrainian citizen from the Ukrainian army.

[Manic!]

Well, if the EU didn't decide to bride the Ukrainian government into a contract where the Ukrainian citizens get shitted on and the Ukrainian government gets rich, there wouldn't be a problem.

Everyone can be brought at a price, and I support Russia on defending the Ukrainian citizen from the Ukrainian army.

So who is defending the Ukrainian citizens from the pro Russia thugs?
Also the the former Ukraine president was pro Russia. Have you seen his palace? Talk about getting rich and the people getting shit on.

[nah]

So the miltary shou;dn't be looking for ID's? :suspicious:
You make a good point, but these are the same guys that took the plane down.

I rather the real investigators go through these people's belonging to ensure they go back to the family. What do you these scumbags will do to anything that's valuable?

[hud 91gt]

if they were hit at 300, they would have had about 10-15 seconds of consciousness due to the lack of oxygen. Otherwise, those in the blast radius would die instantly (of course)

That's saying the aircraft continued to fly at 30,000' unpressurized after the hit. That 10-15 seconds is also useful consciousness. Your still wide awake, just not thinking properly. I'm assuming at breakup, it probably started to fall pretty rapidly. It's quite possible the poor bastards were conscious for the free fall. At 20,000' your aware of everything for a while.... Wouldn't take long to get there.

[nah]

I really hope some good comes out of this tragedy, like Putin ousted from power.

[CRS]

I really hope some good comes out of this tragedy, like Putin ousted from power.

Without a war, this will not happen.

Even with a war, unless the Russians lose, this will not happen.

[Harvey Specter]

-heard on the news this morning that the UN Security Council had an emergency meeting to discuss what to do about this tragedy.

Some people need to stop playing the blame game until there is a detailed investigation about what went on. Although the investigation may take a long time given the size of the plane debris, the remoteness of the Ukraine area, and other factors, something has to be done ASAP!

International inspectors need to be given full access to the crash site to find the plane's flight recorders. Justice for the family and friends of people who lost their lives on that plane!

No offense but UN can't do shit and is as corrupt as the corrupt governments and officials they try to sanction.

I have no faith in any government whatsoever and I feel the families of the loved ones that lost their lives in this crash will never get justice.

[v_tec]

[Deleted]

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

List of airliner shootdown incidents - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

it's happened many times. I assume the result of this will be like every other incident...

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

as for something good coming out of this...

"oops, sorry, we'll try not to do that again"

and hopefully no more people die.

any other result will be worse, unless you want more people getting hurt.

[FS1992EG]

Has anyone made the connection between the lost Malaysian airliner missing a couple months back with this one that was shot down is the same type of plane, same Airline too.

Missing plane:
Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Shot plane:
Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I smell something fishy.

[Jgresch]

Has anyone made the connection between the lost Malaysian airliner missing a couple months back with this one that was shot down is the same type of plane, same Airline too.

Missing plane:
Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17)

Shot plane:
Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_370)

I smell something fishy.

:ahwow: omg it was the same airline?????? why are we just finding this out now?

[FS1992EG]

:ahwow: omg it was the same airline?????? why are we just finding this out now?

It's the plane model number of plane and the same Airline.

That can't be a coincidence.

[Jgresch]

It's the plane model number of plane and the same Airline.

That can't be a coincidence.

Malaysia Airlines only has 5 different aircrafts in their fleet.

[Infiniti]

It's the plane model number of plane and the same Airline.

That can't be a coincidence.

two different Boeing 777's:

MH 370 was registered 9M-MRO
MH 17 was registered 9M-MRD

Please humour me with your theory on how this cannot be coincidence?

p.s: My tinfoil hat is on standby

[FS1992EG]

two different Boeing 777's:

MH 370 was registered 9M-MRO
MH 17 was registered 9M-MRD

Please humour me with your theory on how this cannot be coincidence?

p.s: My tinfoil hat is on standby

So what your telling me is that Registration numbers can't be changed?

[Jgresch]

So what your telling me is that Registration numbers can't be changed?

Malaysia Airlines fleet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They have thirteen 777s

[Ch28]

Read this response on Reddit and thought it was spot on


Russia's pretty much heavily implicated in this, no matter how they spin it. Putin will be able to survive unscathed in Russia in large part due to the cult of personality he's developed. For the rest of the world, though, Russia is now facing a very, very serious risk of becoming an international pariah like North Korea. The more they do things like keep inspectors away from the crash site and keep or tamper with the black box, the worse it will get.

I'm very curious to see the fallout from this especially from the European nations in the next week. This seems to me a golden opportunity for Ukraine to cement ties with Europe by inviting in European forces to toss the Russian special forces "pro-Russia rebels" out for good and all. Russia doesn't like it, they will find they likely will have no leverage to contest it without starting a shooting war with European forces.

Russia needs to back off fast. They have an economy that needs outside connections. All that oil is not much use if you can't sell it (ask Iraq before the second Gulf War...), and the western nations could pretty much put an end to Russia's ability to legitimately sell oil to anybody other than the likes of North Korea. They are very exposed economically, and playing this wrong could result in the destruction of their economy and setbacks that would reverse decades of gains.

Add to that, this screws with what would seem to be Putin's grand plan of recapturing former Soviet satellite states. They are coming off heavy handed and bad. Russia can forget about getting any more of the Ukraine under control and they can expect other former client states to forge closer ties with Europe and the west.

TLDR: Putin's overplayed his hand, the grand scheme's been torpedoed because of trigger-happy people on the ground, and this has great potential to become a massive foreign relations and economic fiasco for Russia.

[FS1992EG]

Malaysia Airlines fleet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_fleet)

They have thirteen 777s

I just thought it was interesting.

[Infiniti]

Read this response on Reddit and thought it was spot on

Europe needs Russian oil. Therefore, I wouldn't expect a very tough response from them.

Its definitely bad publicity for the Putin administration as the whole situation undermines their aspirations to solidify their influence within the Ukraine (specifically the eastern regions).

I would argue that the ingredients are now present in order to create a watershed moment politically in that region, however, whats more likely to happen is another memorial with a pledge to prevent further escalations in violence and "hope an incident such as this never happens again."

Ordinary citizens are expendable in the face of larger economic schemes

[nah]

Fuck these rebels and not letting the authorities deal with the bodies properly.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/07/19/uk-ukraine-crisis-airplane-idUKKBN0FO03T20140719

As the stench of death began to pervade the area after Thursday's crash, correspondents watched rescue workers carry bodies across the fields and gather remains in black sacks.

Meeting Ukrainian President Poroshenko in Kiev, Dutch Foreign Minister Frans Timmermans said: "We are already shocked by the news we got today of bodies being dragged around, of the site not being treated properly ... People are angry, furious."

The Ukrainian security council in Kiev said staff of the emergencies ministry had found 186 bodies and had checked some 18 sq km (7 square miles) of the scattered 25-sq km crash site. But the workers were not free to conduct a normal investigation.

"The fighters have let the Emergencies Ministry workers in there but they are not allowing them to take anything from the area," security council spokesman Andriy Lysenko said. "The fighters are taking away all that has been found."

[Bouncing Bettys]

Russia spotted editing Wikipedia page about downed Malaysia Air jet | The Verge (http://mobile.theverge.com/2014/7/18/5917099/russia-spotted-editing-wikipedia-page-of-downed-malaysia-air-jet)

[StylinRed]

Russia spotted editing Wikipedia page about downed Malaysia Air jet | The Verge (http://mobile.theverge.com/2014/7/18/5917099/russia-spotted-editing-wikipedia-page-of-downed-malaysia-air-jet)

i dont get why this would get any traction...the entry before the edit was already ridiculous and needed editing (it placed accusations as fact and used questionable language) the result of edit, was also wrong, but seemed more to be out of spite of the original erroneous entry

wtf cares? its wiki..

[Excelsis]

It's the plane model number of plane and the same Airline.

That can't be a coincidence.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/30663378.jpg




:concentrate: ....

[StylinRed]

BBC has been showing a family that lost members in flight mh370 and now in mh17 as well :/

Two Australians on downed MH17 lost relatives on missing flight MH370 | World news | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/two-australians-mh17-shot-down-ukraine-relatives-mh370)

[whatheshiet]

Bodies Everywhere: Footage Of Malaysian Airline MH17 Aftermath! (*Warning* Graphic Footage) - World Star Uncut (http://www.worldstaruncut.com/uncut/71793)

[Ronin]

Has anyone made the connection between the lost Malaysian airliner missing a couple months back with this one that was shot down is the same type of plane, same Airline too.

Missing plane:
Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17)

Shot plane:
Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_370)

I smell something fishy.

Yeah okay, tin foil hat, the 777 is a very common aircraft.

How are conspiracy idiots taking hold of this one? The explanation seems pretty reasonable...just a coincidence its the same airline.

[Ronin]

So these rebel assholes accidently shot down a plane and now won't let people that know what they're doing get at the scene?

[dangonay]

So these rebel assholes accidently shot down a plane and now won't let people that know what they're doing get at the scene?

I find this beyond belief. There should have been investigators on scene hours after the crash with unimpeded access to the wreckage and security keeping everyone else out.

Even worse, I find it unbelievable that there isn't some protocol in place to handle crashes in remote or hostile areas. Finding out what happened to almost 300 innocent people should trump your fucking pathetic little uprising/cause.


What I think should have happened is a joint military response by several countries (say the US, Russia and a European country) who literally drop down right at the scene and immediately secure the area. Any rebels or others would get x amount of time to leave the area, after that you're considered hostile and could suffer severe consequences.

[Lomac]

What's funny (read: sad) is that Putin is adamant that it was the Ukraine who shot it down, yet if he truly believed that, he'd do everything he can to convince the separatists to let the investigators do their job.

[Ronin]

I wonder if governments think we're just stupid because sometimes, and I'm not just talking about Putin, they make moves that are just so blatantly ridiculous that they just have to think we're fucking stupid.

I guess I can't blame them because the majority of the world are pants on head idiots and no one ever calls them out on this shit.

It seems pretty legit that the rebels shot the plane down thinking it was a military target with arms they either seized from Ukrainian bases or got from Russia...and then knew they fucked up big.

That explanation just seems so likely that...how in the fuck do you convince the world otherwise just by saying "Oh no, those fucking Ukrainians did it. Not the cool rebel ones that are with us that have those weapons and are capable of doing so but those jackass Ukrainians that want to join stinky Europe. Because."

[StylinRed]

I was watching the BBC earlier and they said that there are investigators on the ground the problem is is that the separatists aren't allowing the investigators to remove anything from the scenes


That explanation just seems so likely that...how in the fuck do you convince the world otherwise just by saying "Oh no, those fucking Ukrainians did it. Not the cool rebel ones that are with us that have those weapons and are capable of doing so but those jackass Ukrainians that want to join stinky Europe. Because."

again from a debate seen on the bbc, 1 guest was saying exactly that "isn't it more likely that separatists with these weapons but no real knowledge on its use accidentally fired on the airliner?" and it was argued that it isn't actually known that the separatists have BUKs it's simply an accusation

[SkinnyPupp]

Read this response on Reddit and thought it was spot on
Good post. Both Russia and China are getting a lot more aggro lately, and it's a bit disconcerting

[Ronin]

From what I've been reading, apparently one of the rebels bragged that they had taken a battery of anti-air missles on their wacky Ukraine social media. I forget where I read that but take it with a grain of salt.

Either way, I don't see any reason to suspect conspiracy at all here. Nothing about this situation seems unbelievable.

[Ronin]

Bodies Everywhere: Footage Of Malaysian Airline MH17 Aftermath! (*Warning* Graphic Footage) - World Star Uncut (http://www.worldstaruncut.com/uncut/71793)

This is a Vice News video, by the way...not some shaky Russian dash cam. It's still...somewhat censored but WHAT THE FUCK

You know how if a plane crashes in the developed world, there are tons of emergency vehicles with specialized trucks with specialized equipment and people in full body condoms picking through the wreckage so they preserve everything for further investigation?

Yeah, none of that here. Just random Ukranians throwing shit into the back of a truck. They're not even wearing gloves.

[nah]

I want the Dutch army to go in there and wipe out these rebel asshats!

http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/europe/netherlands/ranks_uniforms/uniforms/pictures/Combat_field_uniforms_soldiers_Dutch_army_Netherla nds_010.jpg

[Harvey Specter]

It's a bad situation and a situation which I believe even Putin has no control over. Most of these pro-Russian militia's are independent from each other with no one supreme leader controlling them. Putin and the Russian government might get some of them to abide to a cease fire but others will continue to fight despite this incident and I believe things will continue to escalate in that region.

And I fault the EU for letting this situation get out of control. It's in their own back yard but yet EU leaders have looked the other way and continue to look at the US to do something because no one wants to to get their hands dirty and spoil their relations with Russia because of exports that are too valuable to the EU. After this incident, it's time for leaders like Merkel to step up to the plate and start going after Russia with severe sanctions.

[Ludepower]

I want the Dutch army to go in there and wipe out these rebel asshats!

http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/europe/netherlands/ranks_uniforms/uniforms/pictures/Combat_field_uniforms_soldiers_Dutch_army_Netherla nds_010.jpg

I dunno why the Dutch or Malaysia haven't been more outspoken or threaten war.

If there were 150 Americans on board. You betcha an invasion would be sent in to secure that crash site.

[Manic!]

It's a bad situation and a situation which I believe even Putin has no control over. Most of these pro-Russian militia's are independent from each other with no one supreme leader controlling them. Putin and the Russian government might get some of them to abide to a cease fire but others will continue to fight despite this incident and I believe things will continue to escalate in that region.

And I fault the EU for letting this situation get out of control. It's in their own back yard but yet EU leaders have looked the other way and continue to look at the US to do something because no one wants to to get their hands dirty and spoil their relations with Russia because of exports that are too valuable to the EU. After this incident, it's time for leaders like Merkel to step up to the plate and start going after Russia with severe sanctions.

He has lots of control because he is arming them. The BUK missile takes 6 months of training to use so some random rebel could not have used it. The rebels are in constant contact with the Russian military. Putin could close the boarder and stop supplying the rebels. That would but a big hurt on the Rebels.

[Mr.HappySilp]

It's a bad situation and a situation which I believe even Putin has no control over. Most of these pro-Russian militia's are independent from each other with no one supreme leader controlling them. Putin and the Russian government might get some of them to abide to a cease fire but others will continue to fight despite this incident and I believe things will continue to escalate in that region.

And I fault the EU for letting this situation get out of control. It's in their own back yard but yet EU leaders have looked the other way and continue to look at the US to do something because no one wants to to get their hands dirty and spoil their relations with Russia because of exports that are too valuable to the EU. After this incident, it's time for leaders like Merkel to step up to the plate and start going after Russia with severe sanctions.

Not much will happen. They will go on TV made a statment and that's about it.

[4444]

I dunno why the Dutch or Malaysia haven't been more outspoken or threaten war.

If there were 150 Americans on board. You betcha an invasion would be sent in to secure that crash site.

They need evidence to declare a valid war (let's not bring up gulf war 2, WMD)

This war could be massive. It would be west vs east again, not west vs some little backward country... Especially with china warning of not jumping to conclusions against Russia.

What will be interesting is China's response, they've been unhelpful in all world conflicts (i.e. Philippines typhoon couple years ago, nice donation arse hats), but if Russia are proven to have indirectly or directly done this, surely they need to partake in sanctions and potential action as a major player in the free world economy.

With the militants / separatists blocking access, taking black boxes, does this not seem like an indication of guilt? If u did nothing, why would u block access? Let the truth come out.

Diplomacy must lead to any action, this will be long and slow... Putin will never admit anything, and this may end up costing a lot of lives in the long term, either by significant economic sanctions which may lead to a forceful reaction by Putin, or a more immediate support for Ukraine by the west, which may lead to a full blown east/west war.

I am so saddened by all of this and the prospect of more war. We need love, not war. Hard work, not fighting. We need to accept the world we live in, not want to break it up. Accept each other's individual freedoms, and not want to change their ways, etc. but most ppl are fucking idiots, hence all the wars and death... Now of absolutely unrelated innocent people.

[rsx]

There's never going to be a WWII style war in the near future. The economies of the countries are so intertwined, it wouldn't be in their best interest. You'll most likely see economic sanctions against Russia. Military or "humanitarian" aid might increase to the Ukraine to piss off the Russians. More sabre rattling for a few weeks and then that's it.

[FS1992EG]

There's never going to be a WWII style war in the near future. The economies of the countries are so intertwined, it wouldn't be in their best interest. You'll most likely see economic sanctions against Russia. Military or "humanitarian" aid might increase to the Ukraine to piss off the Russians. More sabre rattling for a few weeks and then that's it.

There will be WW3 useless unless the citizen in every each wanting to wage war fight their government tooth and nail to stop it.

The USA debt is 17 Trillion dollars, what do they have to lose by going to war. Even if USA/Europe starts war, China will not stand for the US being in Russia and they will have a coalition with Russia.

War is a racket, look is up. The biggest benefactors of wars are the companies that provides arms to the waring states. And the losers are the lives that are sacrificed in the name of "peace".

And lastly, Sanctions by the US is an act of war. The US put sanctions on Japan and goaded them to attack Pearl Habour because of it.

[Lomac]

There will be WW3 useless unless the citizen in every each wanting to wage war fight their government tooth and nail to stop it.

The USA debt is 17 Trillion dollars, what do they have to lose by going to war. Even if USA/Europe starts war, China will not stand for the US being in Russia and they will have a coalition with Russia.

War is a racket, look is up. The biggest benefactors of wars are the companies that provides arms to the waring states. And the losers are the lives that are sacrificed in the name of "peace".

And lastly, Sanctions by the US is an act of war. The US put sanctions on Japan and goaded them to attack Pearl Habour because of it.

:suspicious:

Don't even know how to respond to this...

[EmperorIS]

There will be WW3 useless unless the citizen in every each wanting to wage war fight their government tooth and nail to stop it.

The USA debt is 17 Trillion dollars, what do they have to lose by going to war. Even if USA/Europe starts war, China will not stand for the US being in Russia and they will have a coalition with Russia.

War is a racket, look is up. The biggest benefactors of wars are the companies that provides arms to the waring states. And the losers are the lives that are sacrificed in the name of "peace".

And lastly, Sanctions by the US is an act of war. The US put sanctions on Japan and goaded them to attack Pearl Habour because of it.

Jesus Christ you are dumb.

[JD¹³]

Here's some detailed analysis of the SA-11 Gadfly missile system that was 'allegedly' used to take down MH17. Though 30 years old this is a very capable bit of kit and not something that some rebels off the street could operate. The people onboard that 777 would have had no idea what hit them.

Full article: Buk 9K37/ SA-11 Gadfly SAM | SOFREP (http://sofrep.com/36195/one-missile-298-lives-lost-profile-buk-9k37-sa-11-gadfly-sam)

http://sofrep.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/ukraine-crash-weaponry-missiles.jpg

For the question of how the United States could tell where and when the radar system was turned on and seeing thermal imaging of the airliner crashing - I can't comment on the assets they may have in the area but it's common sense to know they've had DSP satellite(s) observing the region within hours of the conflict in Ukraine beginning.

[CharlesInCharge]

Gordon Duff's article.
MH17 Working Group Established | Veterans Today (http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/19/mh17-working-group-established/)

Who is Gordon Duff

Gordon Duff is an accredited diplomat and is generally accepted as one of the top global intelligence specialists. He manages the world's largest private intelligence organization and regularly consults with governments challenged by security issues.

Gordon Duff has traveled extensively, is published around the world and is a regular guest on TV and radio in more than "several" countries.

Gordon Duff is a trained chef, wine enthusiast, avid motorcyclist and gunsmith specializing in historical weapons and restoration.

Business experience and interests are in energy and defense technology.

[dangonay]

Here's some detailed analysis of the SA-11 Gadfly missile system that was 'allegedly' used to take down MH17. Though 30 years old this is a very capable bit of kit and not something that some rebels off the street could operate. The people onboard that 777 would have had no idea what hit them.

To clarify, what I took away from this article is that the original system, developed 30 years ago, was already capable of easily shooting down an airliner.

The author made mention that the system has been refined by the Russian Federation. Obviously, sophisticated weapons (like SAMs) would get improved over time as technology allowed even though their basic design is the same.

So if an original SA-11 was already "very capable" then we can assume newer versions are even better (more accurate, lower failure rates, faster target acquisition and maybe even improved friend/foe detection).

[4444]

Gordon Duff's article.
MH17 Working Group Established | Veterans Today (http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/19/mh17-working-group-established/)

Who is Gordon Duff

Gordon Duff is an accredited diplomat and is generally accepted as one of the top global intelligence specialists. He manages the world's largest private intelligence organization and regularly consults with governments challenged by security issues.

Gordon Duff has traveled extensively, is published around the world and is a regular guest on TV and radio in more than "several" countries.

Gordon Duff is a trained chef, wine enthusiast, avid motorcyclist and gunsmith specializing in historical weapons and restoration.

Business experience and interests are in energy and defense technology.
Wtf is wrong with u? Why is everything a conspiracy which somehow involves Jewish people?

That article was written as the rambling a of a crazy old man.

[SkinnyPupp]

There will be WW3 useless unless the citizen in every each wanting to wage war fight their government tooth and nail to stop it.

The USA debt is 17 Trillion dollars, what do they have to lose by going to war. Even if USA/Europe starts war, China will not stand for the US being in Russia and they will have a coalition with Russia.

War is a racket, look is up. The biggest benefactors of wars are the companies that provides arms to the waring states. And the losers are the lives that are sacrificed in the name of "peace".

And lastly, Sanctions by the US is an act of war. The US put sanctions on Japan and goaded them to attack Pearl Habour because of it.
Looks like someone is trying to out-crazy Charles in Charge :derp:

[anxiety]

Here's some detailed analysis of the SA-11 Gadfly missile system that was 'allegedly' used to take down MH17. Though 30 years old this is a very capable bit of kit and not something that some rebels off the street could operate. The people onboard that 777 would have had no idea what hit them.

Full article: Buk 9K37/ SA-11 Gadfly SAM | SOFREP (http://sofrep.com/36195/one-missile-298-lives-lost-profile-buk-9k37-sa-11-gadfly-sam)

http://sofrep.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/ukraine-crash-weaponry-missiles.jpg

For the question of how the United States could tell where and when the radar system was turned on and seeing thermal imaging of the airliner crashing - I can't comment on the assets they may have in the area but it's common sense to know they've had DSP satellite(s) observing the region within hours of the conflict in Ukraine beginning.

I'm not an expert on planes so I thought you could comment on this. Could MH 17's pilots see something that is heading towards them in the plane's radar system even though there is nothing they can do?

[Ronin]

I seriously doubt a 777 is capable of dodging a missile. It probably depends on how the missile is guided but still the missile is travelling so much faster than the 777 is capable of maneuvering.

And commercial planes don't have what you're thinking of as radar. Its not like in a movie where an unidentified object shows up. Their screen would only have information from other planes equipped with transponders or information relayed by ATC.

[Infiniti]

RT: ?It was Putin?s missile? by Pepe Escobar | 2012: What's the 'real' truth? (http://jhaines6.wordpress.com/2014/07/19/rt-%E2%80%8Bit-was-putins-missile-by-pepe-escobar/)

take it as you will, its still an interesting read

[JD¹³]

I'm not an expert on planes so I thought you could comment on this. Could MH 17's pilots see something that is heading towards them in the plane's radar system even though there is nothing they can do?
The missile would not have appeared on their radar. It's a far more complex system in military aircraft which are tied in to countermeasures which allows a pilot to ID and defeat threats. As the missle was coming from below them they wouldn't have seen it coming at all.

Note that the SA-11 has IFF capability. Given the complexity of operation of a system like this it's my opinion that there are two options for how this went down:

1 - A trained operator targeted the airliner, saw it visually, ignored its squak ident as a commercial passenger carrier, and fired anyway.

2 - Someone was trained by an operator (Russian or Ukranian) but was unaware or uninformed on how IFF works and fired thinking it was a military transport like an Antonov.

[godwin]

Or you can try it yourself with a SAM simulator

https://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Though only covers up to Geckos. It is not as easy as people think.

IFF only applies to military aircrafts NOT civilian aircrafts. Apparently the missile launcher suspected can't tell the difference between civilian and military unless hooked up to the ATC (http://www.technologyreview.com/news/529156/how-can-a-civilian-plane-accidentally-be-shot-down/) (which I suspect they didn't as they are "non government actors")

The missile would not have appeared on their radar. It's a far more complex system in military aircraft which are tied in to countermeasures which allows a pilot to ID and defeat threats. As the missle was coming from below them they wouldn't have seen it coming at all.

Note that the SA-11 has IFF capability. Given the complexity of operation of a system like this it's my opinion that there are two options for how this went down:

1 - A trained operator targeted the airliner, saw it visually, ignored its squak ident as a commercial passenger carrier, and fired anyway.

2 - Someone was trained by an operator (Russian or Ukranian) but was unaware or uninformed on how IFF works and fired thinking it was a military transport like an Antonov.

[JD¹³]

.... unless hooked up to the ATC (which I suspect they didn't as they are "non government actors")
Touché.

[CharlesInCharge]

I blame the ZioAmericans.

Looks like someone is trying to out-crazy Charles in Charge :derp:I wonder if you're still delusional about Ukraine thinking the "revolution" was not a ZioAmerican coup.

@4444
If you genuinely have facts to present and counter my arguments, please provide them... if you dont, just keep at failing me like you always do.

Neo-Nazi leaders holding Ukraine captive: Analyst
youtube.com/watch?v=1a-EmvYlLxQ

Far-right armed with bats patrol Kiev (video)
BBC News - Ukraine: Far-right armed with bats patrol Kiev (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26394980)


Ex-Israeli soldier led militia unit in Ukraine: Reports
PressTV - Ex-Israeli soldier led militia unit in Ukraine: Reports (http://www.presstv.ir/detail/352724.html)
The ex-Israeli soldier who led a Kiev fighting unit
The ex-Israeli soldier who led a Kiev fighting unit - World Israel News | Haaretz (http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.577114)

US spent $5 billion to destabilize Ukraine
want sources? google it, this is an open statement by the "white house".

---------------

Forbes Magazine writes...
Ukraine’s new 450-seat parliament approved the appointment of the former Central Banker Yatsenyuk
What is this Jewish banker doing here with his hands? Winning the hearts of his Nazi thugs?
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BhGU3AIIgAAkPRD.jpg
Wikipedia describes Ukraine's new prime minister as
"Arseniy Petrovych Yatsenyuk was born on May 22, 1974 in Chernivtsi, Ukraine (then part of the Soviet Union). He was born to in a family of Jewish-Ukrainian[6] professors of the Chernivtsi University. His father, historian Peter Ivanovich Yatsenuk, has been a professor at the Faculty of History at Chernivtsi National University."

-------------

Ukrainian billionaire with Israeli citizenship owning the largest bank in Ukraine is appointed position as governor.
"Rule by oligarchs: Kiev appoints billionaires to govern east

The newly-appointed Dnepropetrovsk governor is Igor Kolomoysky, Ukraine’s third-wealthiest man, with an estimated fortune of $2.4 billion. He co-owns the informal commercial group Privat, which includes Ukraine’s largest bank Privatbank, which Kolomoysky heads, as well as assets in the oil, ferroalloys and food industries, agriculture and transport."

http://davidduke.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/IgorKolomoisky.jpg
Igor Kolomoisky (left), one of the men behind the planned European Jewish Parliament, raises his glass for a toast with Israeli Chief Rabbi Yona Metzger in 2010

------------
Is it tiring for you guys to keep following the same ZioAmerican news outlets, come on here to regurgitate the same story line, but to find out you were bamboozled once again?

[Gululu]

Malaysian Flight Shot Down, Attempted Putin Assassination? - YouTube

[Mr.Money]

If Russia doesn't accept blame....they should just off every rebel in sight...there shouldn't have being a whole sector in the first place...& only have the Russian army....those pieces of shit.

[GS8]

:fuuuuu:

Assuming the Russians are heavily involved (which I'm assuming they are), I will officially never touch Russian Vodka ever again. I think more of us should do the same.

Thank God I can buy local Banff Glacier Vodka instead.

Also, while it's commendable that nations will not go to war with each other as easily as in the past, it's sad that it's probably due to economic interests rather than moral interests.

[Ronin]

What if I already have bottles of vodka I brought back from Russia?

http://global3.memecdn.com/Threw-It-On-The-Ground-The-Lonley-Island_o_118858.jpg

[CharlesInCharge]

Satellite data on MH17 should be released: Analyst
Satellite data on MH17 should be released: Analyst | Veterans Today (http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/20/satellite-data-on-mh17-should-be-released-analyst/)


Malaysia and Gaza Victims of Western Aggression
NEO ? Malaysia and Gaza Victims of Western Aggression | Veterans Today (http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/20/neo-malaysia-and-gaza-victims-of-western-aggression/)
http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/MH-17-flight-paths_banner_2.jpg

[StylinRed]

I was told that Ukrainian air control was in contact with flight MH17 just before & during the incident but they've yet to release the tape/transcript?

is that bs or?

[PeanutButter]

:fuuuuu:

Assuming the Russians are heavily involved (which I'm assuming they are), I will officially never touch Russian Vodka ever again. I think more of us should do the same.

Thank God I can buy local Banff Glacier Vodka instead.

Also, while it's commendable that nations will not go to war with each other as easily as in the past, it's sad that it's probably due to economic interests rather than moral interests.

It's not really commendable, it's more sustainable.
We can't start going to war over every random act, where there is no clear evidence anyone did anything.

If Russia straight up said, "Yep, it was us. Too bad, so sad" and continues to threaten and hurt a speific country, then I can see how a War would be plausible. But, you can't expect Nations to go to War over an incident where no side really knows much.

[Mr.HappySilp]

It's not really commendable, it's more sustainable.
We can't start going to war over every random act, where there is no clear evidence anyone did anything.

If Russia straight up said, "Yep, it was us. Too bad, so sad" and continues to threaten and hurt a speific country, then I can see how a War would be plausible. But, you can't expect Nations to go to War over an incident where no side really knows much.

Even if there are prof that Russia is in it or at least be part of it, there will still be no war. This isn't like back in WW2 where nations are pretty close and mostly rely on themselves. Now there are too economy ties and business between different countries is impossible to go to war with Russia. Not to mention most likely China will back up Russia. If there is a war it won't be fought with tanks and bullets it will be digital and economic.

[4444]

I blame the ZioAmericans.

I wonder if you're still delusional about Ukraine thinking the "revolution" was not a ZioAmerican coup.

@4444
If you genuinely have facts to present and counter my arguments, please provide them... if you dont, just keep at failing me like you always do.

Neo-Nazi leaders holding Ukraine captive: Analyst
youtube.com/watch?v=1a-EmvYlLxQ

Far-right armed with bats patrol Kiev (video)
BBC News - Ukraine: Far-right armed with bats patrol Kiev (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26394980)


Ex-Israeli soldier led militia unit in Ukraine: Reports
PressTV - Ex-Israeli soldier led militia unit in Ukraine: Reports (http://www.presstv.ir/detail/352724.html)
The ex-Israeli soldier who led a Kiev fighting unit
The ex-Israeli soldier who led a Kiev fighting unit - World Israel News | Haaretz (http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.577114)


want sources? google it, this is an open statement by the "white house".

---------------

Forbes Magazine writes...
What is this Jewish banker doing here with his hands? Winning the hearts of his Nazi thugs?
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BhGU3AIIgAAkPRD.jpg
Wikipedia describes Ukraine's new prime minister as


-------------

Ukrainian billionaire with Israeli citizenship owning the largest bank in Ukraine is appointed position as governor.


http://davidduke.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/IgorKolomoisky.jpg
Igor Kolomoisky (left), one of the men behind the planned European Jewish Parliament, raises his glass for a toast with Israeli Chief Rabbi Yona Metzger in 2010

------------
Is it tiring for you guys to keep following the same ZioAmerican news outlets, come on here to regurgitate the same story line, but to find out you were bamboozled once again?

you ask me to bring you proof - i'll ask you to do the same.

here's a deal for you, i won't post anything to this thread without proof, and you do the same.

all you do is provide conspiracy theories which are mostly baseless. i try to bring in a logical argument.

in the end of the day, proof is very hard to find as it often can be questioned. the court of law is based on the agreement of a group of peers - I believe we will end up with certain 'proof' with which everyone will end up trying to poke holes in, and a consensus of western powers will agree russia did it, and that is what we will have to accept.

we, the general public, do not have the information those involved do, and it is made harder by the Russian separatist intervention that is currently occurring... or is that all a zionist conspiracy?

i'd love to know, do you function normally in society? do you have a job? do you live in a bunker with a collection of tin foil hats?

[4444]

Satellite data on MH17 should be released: Analyst
Satellite data on MH17 should be released: Analyst | Veterans Today (http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/20/satellite-data-on-mh17-should-be-released-analyst/)


Malaysia and Gaza Victims of Western Aggression
NEO ? Malaysia and Gaza Victims of Western Aggression | Veterans Today (http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/20/neo-malaysia-and-gaza-victims-of-western-aggression/)
http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/MH-17-flight-paths_banner_2.jpg

ignoring the links you've posted, bc they're as batty as you, but it is VERY interesting why the flight was so far north... it makes no sense to be that far north, right? surely they should be flying over crimea area, not the donesk area?!

[SkinnyPupp]

Don't bother having a rational argument with him. It's like trying to ask a priest to provide scientific proof of god. The two sides just can't reconcile. It's literally impossible because they literally can't be rational. They have to be, it's the only way.

[CharlesInCharge]

SkinnyPupp you also spread mainstream media propaganda and will not answer to the facts I provide.
Show me you can rub two brain cells together and explain the question I ask below.

@4444
Listen I provided proof that the Nazi's and the Zionist have collaborated together on the behalf of the ZioAmerican empire, having killed many along the way by sniping and shelling innocent people in Ukraine. This was a coup.
Your rebuttal is to totally ignore this and say "consensus of western powers" is blah blah.
Try again... tell me why the Zionist and Nazi's are working together.


edit -
Looking back at the Boston bombings, people only care about current events when its hot to talk about but are not really interested many months down the line because after I provided new evidence of that false flag, no one cared.

[4444]

@4444
Listen I provided proof that the Nazi's and the Zionist have collaborated together on the behalf of the ZioAmerican empire, having killed many along the way by sniping and shelling innocent people in Ukraine. This was a coup.
Your rebuttal is to totally ignore this and say "consensus of western powers" is blah blah.
Try again... tell me why the Zionist and Nazi's are working together.


nazi's, zionist...

proof...

your mind really is wired wrong

i am REALLY intrigued as to whether you have a normal real life or if you're a uni bomber in waiting, please tell us!

[Lomac]

ignoring the links you've posted, bc they're as batty as you, but it is VERY interesting why the flight was so far north... it makes no sense to be that far north, right? surely they should be flying over crimea area, not the donesk area?!

Not really. They were on an approved flight path, so long as they stayed above the minimum air space. There's an image i can't link to right now (stupid phone) that shows another plane on the same path minutes before the attack.

[quasi]

SkinnyPupp you also spread mainstream media propaganda and will not answer to the facts I provide.
Show me you can rub two brain cells together and explain the question I ask below..



How is it any different then the conspiracy propaganda you spread? It's funny because you constantly call people sheep yet the only difference between yourself and everyone who disagrees with you is you get your truth from a different source. You take everything your conspiracy cohorts say as gospel no matter how convoluted or how much of a reach the story is and claim everyone else is being spoon fed when the reality is you're no different except for your source.

Do I think that everything mainstream media reports is true? Hell no. For you every single event that happens in the world is a cover up, a fallacy and a lie. If you don't see a problem with that you my friend are the sheep.

Is there some truth to some of the stuff you post? There probably is but it gets buried in the bullshit. You cry wolf so much that when you actually post anything with some real merit how can anyone believe it?

[rsx]

SkinnyPupp you also spread mainstream media propaganda and will not answer to the facts I provide.
Show me you can rub two brain cells together and explain the question I ask below.

@4444
Listen I provided proof that the Nazi's and the Zionist have collaborated together on the behalf of the ZioAmerican empire, having killed many along the way by sniping and shelling innocent people in Ukraine. This was a coup.
Your rebuttal is to totally ignore this and say "consensus of western powers" is blah blah.
Try again... tell me why the Zionist and Nazi's are working together.


edit -
Looking back at the Boston bombings, people only care about current events when its hot to talk about but are not really interested many months down the line because after I provided new evidence of that false flag, no one cared.

You are so messed up in the head, it's scary.

[CharlesInCharge]

@quasi
I bring facts, people like you who talk this jazz dont.
Can you explain or refute the information i posted? On forums I deal with people like you all the time. When asked to challenge me people put their tail between their legs and leave... will you?

[quasi]

If you posted something I had an interest in I'd gladly argue my point of view. You like to throw around words like facts but when I think of facts I have to with the dictionary explanation, "something that actually exists; reality; truth". Generally speaking your not bringing facts your bringing 3rd party hear say and drawings lines between X and Y and stating it to be the truth. In fact most of your arguments are based on correlation not causation so they are actually not facts but opinions. Just because you call it a fact doesn't make it so, I know this because I keep telling my wife I have a 12" penis but she keeps saying I wish..........Fuck her it's a fact. :)

[CharlesInCharge]

Yeah just as expected. Just bump this thread if or when you're interested. Good bye

[4444]

Not really. They were on an approved flight path, so long as they stayed above the minimum air space. There's an image i can't link to right now (stupid phone) that shows another plane on the same path minutes before the attack.

i thought i saw a thing showing that compared to their normal path on that flight, the last x number of flights had been 300 miles south... but it could have come from some crack pot CiC site, which he is using as 'proof' even though it's doctored.

i'm not at all saying it's not a approved/valid path, just wondering if it's the normal one for that flight?

[dangonay]

Yeah just as expected. Just bump this thread if or when you're interested. Good bye

Fuck off, goof.

[4444]

i really want to know what CiC is like in real life, i think he'd be fascinating, in an animal experiment kind of way

[murd0c]

i really want to know what CiC is like in real life, i think he'd be fascinating, in an animal experiment kind of way

I agree, at first I thought he was just trolling but he gets way to emotionally involved to be trolling since he thinks his facts he provides us with are the truth and nothing else matters.

[4444]

murd0c, it's "facts" not facts

:)

[StylinRed]

@4444
Listen I provided proof that the Nazi's and the Zionist have collaborated together on the behalf of the ZioAmerican empire, having killed many along the way by sniping and shelling innocent people in Ukraine. This was a coup.
Your rebuttal is to totally ignore this and say "consensus of western powers" is blah blah.
Try again... tell me why the Zionist and Nazi's are working together.


Just so CiC doesn't look completely bat shit crazy (i know most will say too late)
He's speaking of some neo-nazi right wing groups within the Ukrainian uprising working alongside some jewish ukrainian groups (i don't think i would call them zionists though CiC).

They had a common goal which was to oust Yanukovych and now to push out pro-russian separatists.

"the enemy of my enemy is my friend" escapes him


That's one of the things that irks me a bit, when CiC presents lesser known facts in CiCs way, it makes everything look completely nutballs




and for those wondering why its relevant that there are/were neo-nazi groups fighting in ukraine; one of Russias justifications for intruding on the Ukraine issue is that there were neo-nazi groups working in Ukraine that were targeting Russian supporters and murdering them. A fact that was denied by the US & Ukraine even though it was covered/showcased by the BBC

[CharlesInCharge]

I some what disagree...
Anyone whose a billionaire and has dual citizenship to isreal is a fat Zionist.

The main Nazi ideology at its root is to defeat world Jewry control over governments. The last thing they'd want is to terrorize their own people, like having those epic battles with the military, then give that power to those very "Jews" that they want to eliminate.
The reality of the situation is these Nazi groups, like Europe's Golden Dawn
https://xaameriki.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/imia-001__article.jpg?w=627
youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_oRLYeSUCpk
are controlled opposition.
Once the Nazi's, with great US funds, were large enough in numbers to push for this coup... their leader [originally a chechen mercenary (AKA funded by the US by proxy again)] was later killed by the new police on an arrest order.
Some might remember him here with the hat roughing up a former government worker.
youtube.com/watch?v=v5vSCGSvf3U

During the final stages even John McCain made an appearance to speak to the crowds... theres video of him walking the in the street.
This guy gets around, within those months he even visited his terrorist buddies in Syria
http://socioecohistory.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/john_mccain_visits_al_qaeda_isis_terrorists_in_syr ia_may2013.jpg

So I dont think this is "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" kind of case at all.
Anyways this shouldnt even be a surprise as these US backed "Orange" revolutions and its leaders have been at it for years and are back at their old posts.
People on this forum are easily spoon fed by the media and see Russia as this boogyman doing evil in the world where its actually the opposite.

Enough of me revealing the obvious...

[Ronin]

I love that CiC uses the word "facts" to describe hearsay from sites that no one but him thinks is legit.

[4444]

I some what disagree...
Anyone whose a billionaire and has dual citizenship to isreal is a fat Zionist.

The main Nazi ideology at its root is to defeat world Jewry control over governments. The last thing they'd want is to terrorize their own people, like having those epic battles with the military, then give that power to those very "Jews" that they want to eliminate.
The reality of the situation is these Nazi groups, like Europe's Golden Dawn
https://xaameriki.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/imia-001__article.jpg?w=627
youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_oRLYeSUCpk
are controlled opposition.
Once the Nazi's, with great US funds, were large enough in numbers to push for this coup... their leader [originally a chechen mercenary (AKA funded by the US by proxy again)] was later killed by the new police on an arrest order.
Some might remember him here with the hat roughing up a former government worker.
youtube.com/watch?v=v5vSCGSvf3U

During the final stages even John McCain made an appearance to speak to the crowds... theres video of him walking the in the street.
This guy gets around, within those months he even visited his terrorist buddies in Syria
http://socioecohistory.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/john_mccain_visits_al_qaeda_isis_terrorists_in_syr ia_may2013.jpg

So I dont think this is "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" kind of case at all.
Anyways this shouldnt even be a surprise as these US backed "Orange" revolutions and its leaders have been at it for years and are back at their old posts.
People on this forum are easily spoon fed by the media and see Russia as this boogyman doing evil in the world where its actually the opposite.

Enough of me revealing the obvious...


I WANT TO MEET YOU, TALK TO YOU, UNDERSTAND YOUR LEVEL OF CRAZY!!!

Please let me understand this whole Zionist crazy you keep on referring to, pretty please!

[MarkyMark]

I wonder if CiC actually has normal conversations with people in real life, or is way too paranoid to talk to anyone in public unless it's about some conspiracy. Seriously Charles start a YouTube channel and I will watch

[CharlesInCharge]

Or you can use your brain to figure this stuff out yourself, you dont even have to be smart.

[quasi]

I love that CiC uses the word "facts" to describe hearsay from sites that no one but him thinks is legit.

LOL, the whole point of my post a few above. I've come to the conclusion that if he read it somewhere and regurgitated it then it is now a fact. It's OK, my son still thinks there's a Santa I'm not going to totally shit on his parade he'll figure it one day or he won't.....either way it really doesn't effect me. :)

[Lomac]

@quasi
I bring facts, people like you who talk this jazz dont.

No, you bring theories and speculation.

And I'm sorry, but as Ronin keeps pointing out in different threads, when you can't admit to the fact that you were wrong about that stupid Boston Bombing "edited" photo (remember, he works with Photoshop all day, and as a video editor, I have to watch out for similar artifacts as well), your credibility drops dramatically. You might actually be right in some of these conspiracy theory posts your keep making, but the fact that you can't even admit that you might be wrong means no one will take you seriously.

OR, how about the possibility that "Western" media is heavily biased, yet the feeds you read are absolutely, completely devoid of any bias? And I don't even mean the sort of bias that changes a headline from "Malaysian 747 Crashes" to "So-and-so-country Downs MH17 in Cold Blood!" I mean a journalist's use of trigger words. I've pointed them out for you in articles you've linked from PressTV and RT and yet you deny any of it. Once again I have to paraphrase myself; if you can't admit that you might be wrong, why should we take you seriously?



As sad as it sounds, I miss +theone+ :lol

[Lomac]

Or you can use your brain to figure this stuff out yourself, you dont even have to be smart.

Oh the irony.

[CharlesInCharge]

To Lomac


No, you bring theories and speculation.

And I'm sorry, but as Ronin keeps pointing out in different threads, when you can't admit to the fact that you were wrong about that stupid Boston Bombing "edited" photo (remember, he works with Photoshop all day, and as a video editor, I have to watch out for similar artifacts as well),

I would love to embarrass both of for being so wrong. Post the photos from that thread into the following so that everyone can see what I have to put up with.
http://www.revscene.net/forums/684324-youre-offended-word-zionist-now-debate-me-34.html


your credibility drops dramatically. You might actually be right in some of these conspiracy theory posts your keep making, but the fact that you can't even admit that you might be wrong means no one will take you seriously.



As sad as it sounds, I miss +theone+ :lolWhy dont you show me why Im wrong when I present information. The information is there to be picked and refuted... what opposing information has been provided for me to dispute in these last posts? Nothing. Just cheap shots like monkeys flinging doo doo.


edit -

OR, how about the possibility that "Western" media is heavily biased, yet the feeds you read are absolutely, completely devoid of any bias? And I don't even mean the sort of bias that changes a headline from "Malaysian 747 Crashes" to "So-and-so-country Downs MH17 in Cold Blood!" I mean a journalist's use of trigger words. I've pointed them out for you in articles you've linked from PressTV and RT and yet you deny any of it. Once again I have to paraphrase myself; if you can't admit that you might be wrong, why should we take you seriously?
I see you just added this.
How about you can type all the trigger words you like... but if it lacks any substance, its worthless.

[Lomac]

Sigh.

http://www.revscene.net/forums/684324-youre-offended-word-zionist-now-debate-me-19.html#post8311906

[CharlesInCharge]

Should we be PM'ing each other moderator?

Looks like you dropped out of the debate in the thread you pointed to. Continue this at the last page if you'd still like to be further proven wrong.
What Lomac did was take the FBI photo, resaved it in lower resolution (adding more artifacts), then tried to compare the extra artifacts to the original one with less artifacts to make his argument.

Anyway not only did I uncover my own evidence in the photos, I also found video that proves its was false flag.

[SkinnyPupp]

And CiC has ruined yet another thread...

[RRxtar]

i like the first 3 pages of current events threads.

[SkinnyPupp]

We definitely have to be more proactive with the thread banning when something like this happens. He has his own thread where he can post this shit to where people can go and enjoy if they want. He doesn't have to derail every single thread. Even in a fucking food thread, he brought up "zio american" bullshit :facepalm:

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

what if CiC is right, and we're all actually zionists?

[CorneringArtist]

No, you bring theories and speculation.

And I'm sorry, but as Ronin keeps pointing out in different threads, when you can't admit to the fact that you were wrong about that stupid Boston Bombing "edited" photo (remember, he works with Photoshop all day, and as a video editor, I have to watch out for similar artifacts as well), your credibility drops dramatically. You might actually be right in some of these conspiracy theory posts your keep making, but the fact that you can't even admit that you might be wrong means no one will take you seriously.

OR, how about the possibility that "Western" media is heavily biased, yet the feeds you read are absolutely, completely devoid of any bias? And I don't even mean the sort of bias that changes a headline from "Malaysian 747 Crashes" to "So-and-so-country Downs MH17 in Cold Blood!" I mean a journalist's use of trigger words. I've pointed them out for you in articles you've linked from PressTV and RT and yet you deny any of it. Once again I have to paraphrase myself; if you can't admit that you might be wrong, why should we take you seriously?



As sad as it sounds, I miss +theone+ :lol

I must be on his silly block list, so this will fall on deaf ears

CiC's modus operendi: Even if I'm wrong, I'll shift the goalposts, dodge questions, and claim to have won an argument I clearly lost to make sure I'm still right.

CiC, know that until you can accept that your viewpoints can be questioned, rebuked, and dismissed based on many factors, including the use of sources that are more opinion than fact, no one will take you seriously. Maintain your bubble that Jews and zionists are the anti-christ, and that Middle Eastern society is the ideal.

By the way, taking a page from RacingMetro92's book, and because you've failed to answer the question directly on multiple occasions: If Canada is being run by a ZioAmerican-backed regime, then why are you still here, using ZioAmerican-influenced resources for your own gains?

[StylinRed]

By the way, taking a page from RacingMetro92's book, and because you've failed to answer the question directly on multiple occasions: If Canada is being run by a ZioAmerican-backed regime, then why are you still here, using ZioAmerican-influenced resources for your own gains?

^^^ I know everyone enjoys the attack CiC game and CiC enjoys the "enlightening" of ppl game (and for some reason im enjoying the charity game) but come on, what you said there is basically that there should be no activists and everyone should just shut up or leave...that's almost as insane as CiC is viewed to be ;)

[CorneringArtist]

^^^ I know everyone enjoys the attack CiC game and CiC enjoys the "enlightening" of ppl game (and for some reason im enjoying the charity game) but come on, what you said there is basically that there should be no activists and everyone should just shut up or leave...that's almost as insane as CiC is viewed to be ;)

I understand the need of a devil's advocate on certain stances, but CiC takes that need for another view, and skews it so badly that you want to drop support for the alternative. However, to use the resources of a country that is influenced by the same group that you are campaigning against is hypocritical. Its the same question I ask of the Westboro Baptist Church: If they hate America so much, then why the hell are they in America? Campaign from Mexico or something.

[StylinRed]

^^ I get that too (the hypocrisy), but I suppose ppl like that feel they're on a mission which is best handled where they are (some ways true i guess?)...or at least i imagine that's what their excuse is to sleep better at night

[SkinnyPupp]

^^^ I know everyone enjoys the attack CiC game and CiC enjoys the "enlightening" of ppl game (and for some reason im enjoying the charity game) but come on, what you said there is basically that there should be no activists and everyone should just shut up or leave...that's almost as insane as CiC is viewed to be ;)
This is true. Also it may eventually lead him down a road that is very scary considering what I believe is a genuine mental condition....

[FS1992EG]

Which pointed the finger first is usually the guilty one. And the Americans were the first to point the finger at the Russian Rebels. So I would say that US had a hand in it.

[bobbinka]

:facepalm:

[FS1992EG]

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:
:facepalm:

[CharlesInCharge]

Gordon Duff
White House 'leak': Ukraine did it
PressTV - White House 'leak': Ukraine did it (http://www.presstv.ir/detail/372218.html)

@CorneringArtist
I understand the need of a devil's advocate on certain stances, but CiC takes that need for another view, and skews it so badly that you want to drop support for the alternative. However, to use the resources of a country that is influenced by the same group that you are campaigning against is hypocritical. Its the same question I ask of the Westboro Baptist Church: If they hate America so much, then why the hell are they in America? Campaign from Mexico or something.
CiC, know that until you can accept that your viewpoints can be questioned, rebuked, and dismissed based on many factors, including the use of sources that are more opinion than fact, no one will take you seriously. Maintain your bubble that Jews and zionists are the anti-christ, and that Middle Eastern society is the ideal.
I wonder if you've learnt that the Zionist movement was hijacked from its inception and that Anglo and Arab Caucasian Jews are being used as political and military personal.
Anyways, before I answer your question, how many generations of a settler are you?

[4444]

can we just limit the amount of posts CiC can do in a single thread? this is getting painful now

[SkinnyPupp]

Yes he gets banned now when he brings up the same crap. You have your own dedicated thread for this stuff Charles, keep it in there

[Ludepower]

i dont even know what the topic is about anymore...

[mb_]

Came in this thread hoping there would be an update.... soooooo, any updates?

[meme405]

Is Charles your new best friend?

Skinny you dragged Charles in here, long before CiC even made a post in this thread. Like it or not you guys just egg the guy on, and keep him here.

Also there is no way he is going to just stick to his little funhouse of horrors in the fightclub, cause nobody else goes in there to play his little game.

[murd0c]

When someone is banned from a thread can they still go into and not post or are they unable to open it at all?

[SkinnyPupp]

When someone is banned from a thread can they still go into and not post or are they unable to open it at all?
They can still view it. If he wants he can post about it in his thread.

[underscore]

Or you can try it yourself with a SAM simulator

https://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Though only covers up to Geckos. It is not as easy as people think.

IFF only applies to military aircrafts NOT civilian aircrafts. Apparently the missile launcher suspected can't tell the difference between civilian and military unless hooked up to the ATC (http://www.technologyreview.com/news/529156/how-can-a-civilian-plane-accidentally-be-shot-down/) (which I suspect they didn't as they are "non government actors")

I don't know the stats on how many people are trained to use these kinds of systems, but to me it seems pretty plausible that out of all the rebels running around the region that some are ex-military and a couple of them may be at least somewhat familiar with the systems.

[Hakkaboy]

Which pointed the finger first is usually the guilty one. And the Americans were the first to point the finger at the Russian Rebels. So I would say that US had a hand in it.

So whoever smelt it dealt it?

[godwin]

Think in the Russian air defense designers' perspective: Chances are of civilian aircraft at times of war is pretty low (not to mention private airplane ownership was unheard off when the system was designed). They also know air force is most likely way that "Westerners" will use to attack Russia, so pretty much friendlies travel from East to West and very rarely West to East. Basically these things are designed to hit anything that moves (friends or enemies). They rather have a false positive at times of war. The rest of the dials you see in the simulator have more to do with the diagnostic of the system rather than identification of the aircraft. Remember the system is analog, that's why you see so many ammeters, voltmeters etc etc

Last time those thing used at a war (with Georgia), they hit their own.

Touché.

[godwin]

Yes it is easy to fire those things. Just know discriminating between friend and foe is an art within itself. (obviously whoever fired it didn't care)

I don't know the stats on how many people are trained to use these kinds of systems, but to me it seems pretty plausible that out of all the rebels running around the region that some are ex-military and a couple of them may be at least somewhat familiar with the systems.

[FS1992EG]

So whoever smelt it dealt it?

Dr George Simon, PhD

He's been publishing a series of articles on the habitual behaviors that not only keep persons with disturbed characters from developing a sense of accountability and responsibility but which also serve as effective tactics of manipulation.

The tactic of blaming has sometimes been called projecting the blame. The term projection stems from psychodynamic psychology and refers to one of the automatic mental behaviors conceptualized by traditional theorists as ego defense mechanisms. The rationale behind that notion is that sometimes individuals unconsciously “project” onto others motivations, intentions, or actions that they actually harbor themselves but which they would feel far too unnerved or guilty about to acknowledge as their own.

Sometimes the tactic of blaming can be quite subtle. By calling attention to a wide variety of contributing circumstances, a manipulator can effectively obscure his or her role in the creation of a problem. This “it wasn’t me” tactic is hard to detect when your attention is drawn to other “culprits” through this diversionary sleight of hand.

[StylinRed]

Did you guys hear about cyclists Maarten De Jonge? he had tickets on missing flight MH370 but changed his plans last minute...he also had tickets for flight MH17 and changed his plans again :suspicious:

Maarten De Jonge cheats death twice by switching MH370 and MH17 flights | National Post (http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/20/dutch-man-cheats-death-twice-cyclist-booked-on-flights-mh370-and-mh17-but-changed-plans-at-last-minute/)

Dutch man cheats death twice: Cyclist booked on flights MH370 and MH17, but changed plans at last minute

Maarten De Jonge cheats death twice by switching MH370 and MH17 flights

A Dutch man cheated death on both recent doomed Malaysia Airlines flights after booking tickets on MH370 and MH17 but changing plans at the last minute.

Maarten De Jonge, 29, a cyclist who rides with Malaysia’s Terengganu Cycling Team, switched from MH370 in March to avoid a lengthy stopover and switched from MH17 last week to take a later flight and save money.

“It’s inconceivable,” he told Dutch public broadcaster RTV Oost. “I am very sorry for the passengers and their families, yet I am very pleased I’m unharmed.”

[xpl0sive]

I don't know the stats on how many people are trained to use these kinds of systems, but to me it seems pretty plausible that out of all the rebels running around the region that some are ex-military and a couple of them may be at least somewhat familiar with the systems.

Russia/Ukraine still has mandatory military service for everyone who does not go to University after high school. Majority of those who are involved in the conflict are 25-40 years old, and have most likely received some kind of military training.

As far as trying to figure out who shot the plane down, I doubt that will ever happen. Both sides will keep pointing fingers at each other but the real truth will stay hidden.

If Ukrainian military shot the plane down, nothing really changes. They would say "we were scared of Russia bombing us, we thought it was a military plane"

If pro-Russian separatists shot the plane down (Note these are simple people, not Russian military acting on Russian government's orders), Russia would issue a statement saying that the separatists were acting on their own with no direction from the Russian government whatsoever.

Those in this thread talking about economic sanctions, that has been tried before. Back when this conflict first started the EU threatened Russia with sanctions. Funny thing about sanctions they work both ways. EU quickly realised that they need Russia more than Russia needs them. Therefore no sanctions ensued.

It is sad that a plane full of innocent people got shot down needlessly, but such is war. When the US was in Iraq, I imagine a lot more than 300 innocent people died from their constant bombing because they were looking for "terrorists". In reality, all US was looking for was OIL.

At least in the Ukrainian conflict there are people who are fighting for their nationality, they want to be recognized for their heritage and want to be treated equally. Before the conflict began, Ukraine was denying Russian's access to pension, medical services, etc. These people were Ukrainian citizens but were of Russian heritage... of course the Western media will never talk about any of that. Their main goal is to make Russia look as evil as possible. It has been that way since the Cold War and I don't expect it to change any time soon. Unfortunately most people are too ignorant or lazy to question what the media feeds them, so we end up with generations of people who genuinely believe that Russia is some evil place on Earth where they drink Vodka and make evil plans of taking over the World....

[Noir]

Did you guys hear about cyclists Maarten De Jonge? he had tickets on missing flight MH370 but changed his plans last minute...he also had tickets for flight MH17 and changed his plans again :suspicious:

Maarten De Jonge cheats death twice by switching MH370 and MH17 flights | National Post (http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/20/dutch-man-cheats-death-twice-cyclist-booked-on-flights-mh370-and-mh17-but-changed-plans-at-last-minute/)

Feels like Final Destination.

I wouldn't wanna be on the plane the next flight this guy books.

[dangonay]

As far as trying to figure out who shot the plane down, I doubt that will ever happen. Both sides will keep pointing fingers at each other but the real truth will stay hidden.

Had the crash site been secured immediately they'd have a very good idea what happened. There would undoubtedly be shrapnel or other remains from the missile that struck the plane, which would allow investigators to say with certainty the exact type of missile it was. Knowing the missile they could then round up all the launchers in the area that could have fired the missile. It would be easy to match the missile with the launcher it came from. It's not rocket science, as they say.

[xpl0sive]

Had the crash site been secured immediately they'd have a very good idea what happened. There would undoubtedly be shrapnel or other remains from the missile that struck the plane, which would allow investigators to say with certainty the exact type of missile it was. Knowing the missile they could then round up all the launchers in the area that could have fired the missile. It would be easy to match the missile with the launcher it came from. It's not rocket science, as they say.

so you find the launcher. how do you prove who fired the missle?

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

scientific deduction DUHHH!!!

the hipbone is connected to the tail bone, the tail bone is connected to the something else... and... missile launcher found.


i wouldn't know actually. a gun and bullet i know how they do it. but missile... no idea. lol. i aint a .... wait for it...

missile scientist.

[underscore]

so you find the launcher. how do you prove who fired the missle?

Ted. Ted did it.

[StylinRed]

Had the crash site been secured immediately they'd have a very good idea what happened. There would undoubtedly be shrapnel or other remains from the missile that struck the plane, which would allow investigators to say with certainty the exact type of missile it was. Knowing the missile they could then round up all the launchers in the area that could have fired the missile. It would be easy to match the missile with the launcher it came from. It's not rocket science, as they say.

Ukraines BUK missile launchers are courtesy of Russia.. as are their missiles...

The separatists, if they do have rocket launchers (so far its only been accused) would likely have been scavenged from the area which are also from Russia...

If they were given BUKs from Russia... well those would also be from Russia...


so I don't think what you suggest would have helped?

[dangonay]

so you find the launcher. how do you prove who fired the missle?
You likely won't find the actual person, but do you really need to? All you need to know is who had possession of the launcher. Was it in Ukraine held territory or rebel held?

There are lots of ways to see where a vehicle has been. The types of dirt on the tracks. Any vegetation stuck to the vehicle. Take a sample of the fuel and compare it to tankers and other vehicles to find out who it's been grouped with.

As to whether or not a launcher fired a missile, well that's easy. There would be propellant residue on the launcher itself and even on the other missiles. Has they located the launcher they could even have followed the tracks to see where it's been and look for a patch of ground that shows evidence of a missile launch (if they haven't covered it up, which would waste valuable time when you're trying to flee a crime scene).

The bottom line, as I stated previously, is the area should have been secured immediately by a joint military group. Nobody gets in or out until cleared. Had people been watching the area then all activity (like movement of vehicles/troops) could have been monitored. There should have been planes in the air right away to start this process. As it stands, the investigation has been fucked beyond repair.

[Harvey Specter]

A haunting premonition: 'What will happen if the airplane crashes?' asks boy boarding MH17

https://s1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/O8K1SqpvjwbLYli8A9.XOg--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Y2g9NTIxO2NyPTE7Y3c9NjUwO2R4PTA7ZH k9MDtmaT11bGNyb3A7aD00NzI7cT04NTt3PTU4OQ--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_ca/News/Capress/TOK101-723_2014_121349_high.jpg

In a bedroom in a townhouse near Amsterdam, Miguel Panduwinata reached out for his mother. "Mama, may I hug you?"
Samira Calehr wrapped her arms around her 11-year-old son, who'd been oddly agitated for days, peppering her with questions about death, about his soul, about God. The next morning, she would drop Miguel and his big brother Shaka at the airport so they could catch Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, the first leg of their journey to Bali to visit their grandmother.

Her normally cheerful, well-travelled boy should have been excited. His silver suitcase sat in the living room, ready to go. Jetskiing and surfing in paradise awaited. But something was off. A day earlier, while playing soccer, Miguel had burst out: "How would you choose to die? What would happen to my body if I was buried? Would I not feel anything because our souls go back to God?"

And now, the night before his big trip, Miguel refused to release his mother from his grasp.
He's just going to miss me, Calehr told herself. So she stretched out beside him and held him all night.

It was 11 p.m. on Wednesday, July 16. Miguel, Shaka and the 296 other people aboard Flight 17 had about 15 hours left to live.

The next morning, Samira Calehr and her friend Aan ushered her sons onto the train to the airport. They were joking and laughing. Shaka, 19, had just finished his first year of college, where he was studying textile engineering, and promised to keep an eye on Miguel. Their other brother, Mika, 16, hadn't been able to get a seat on Flight 17 and would travel to Bali the next day.

At the check-in counter, Calehr fussed over her boys' luggage. Shaka, meanwhile, realized he'd forgotten to pack socks. Calehr promised to buy him some and send them along with Mika.

Finally, they were outside customs. The boys hugged Calehr goodbye and walked toward passport control.

Suddenly, Miguel whirled around and ran back, throwing his arms around his mother.

"Mama, I'm going to miss you," he said. "What will happen if the airplane crashes?"

What was this all about? she wondered.

"Don't say that," she said, squeezing him. "Everything will be OK."

Shaka tried to reassure them both. "I will take care of him," he said to his mom. "He's my baby."

She watched the two boys walk away. But Miguel kept looking back at his mother. His big brown eyes looked sad.

Then he vanished from view.

Flight 17 took off around 12:15 p.m. on what should have been an 11 hour and 45 minute flight.

It lasted two hours.

Calehr had just finished buying Shaka's socks when her phone rang. It was her friend Aan. "Where are you?" he screamed. "The plane crashed!"

She made it home just in time to faint.

She grapples now with the what-ifs, the astronomical odds, the realization that the world she knew has grown alien in a blink. She thinks about how her baby boy seemed to sense that his time on earth was running short. She imagines the futures that will never be: Shaka's dream of becoming a textile engineer, gone. Miguel's dream of becoming a go-kart race driver, gone.

How could he have known? How could she have known?
"I should have listened to him," she says softly. "I should have listened to him."

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/haunting-premonition-happen-airplane-crashes-asks-boy-boarding-072353607.html

[HonestTea]

A haunting premonition: 'What will happen if the airplane crashes?' asks boy boarding MH17

https://s1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/O8K1SqpvjwbLYli8A9.XOg--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Y2g9NTIxO2NyPTE7Y3c9NjUwO2R4PTA7ZH k9MDtmaT11bGNyb3A7aD00NzI7cT04NTt3PTU4OQ--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_ca/News/Capress/TOK101-723_2014_121349_high.jpg



https://ca.news.yahoo.com/haunting-premonition-happen-airplane-crashes-asks-boy-boarding-072353607.html

What a sad sad sad story :(

:tears:

[Gumby]

You likely won't find the actual person, but do you really need to? All you need to know is who had possession of the launcher. Was it in Ukraine held territory or rebel held?

There are lots of ways to see where a vehicle has been. The types of dirt on the tracks. Any vegetation stuck to the vehicle. Take a sample of the fuel and compare it to tankers and other vehicles to find out who it's been grouped with.

As to whether or not a launcher fired a missile, well that's easy. There would be propellant residue on the launcher itself and even on the other missiles. Has they located the launcher they could even have followed the tracks to see where it's been and look for a patch of ground that shows evidence of a missile launch (if they haven't covered it up, which would waste valuable time when you're trying to flee a crime scene).

The bottom line, as I stated previously, is the area should have been secured immediately by a joint military group. Nobody gets in or out until cleared. Had people been watching the area then all activity (like movement of vehicles/troops) could have been monitored. There should have been planes in the air right away to start this process. As it stands, the investigation has been fucked beyond repair.
I know you've done vehicular accident reconstruction before, but not air crash investigation! :p