Palestine & Israel [Archive] - REVscene Automotive Forum

View Full Version

fsy82

07-23-2014, 01:12 PM

I'm really surprised this hasn't been posted already on Revscene. I've been watching the non existence news report here and than I saw a news report from Aljazeera and I am just blown away with what the Israel government is getting away with. There has been over 28 UN sanctions against Israel during this assault into Gaza.

On Facebook all I see is children and the public being killed. There was a report where out of the roughly 500 people killed that 80% have been civilians.

I have a two year old and watching kids being basically murdered is ridiculous.

Discuss

fsy82

07-23-2014, 01:14 PM

UN to investigate Israel's Gaza offensive - Middle East - Al Jazeera English (http://www.aljazeera.com/humanrights/2014/07/un-investigate-israel-offensive-gaza-201472316293283952.html)

UN now is investigating Israel offensive into Gaza.

29 states voted in favour of the investigation.
17 abstained, including many EU states.
1 voted against - the US.

GabAlmighty

07-23-2014, 01:31 PM

Good thing the UN's getting involved!

xpl0sive

07-23-2014, 01:43 PM

fsy82

07-23-2014, 01:51 PM

Israel = US. There's your answer as to why they are able to get away with it. The local media will not report about it because Western Media = Western Government... and the UN is a joke to me after what happened with Iraq. UN told the US not to go into Iraq. Guess what happened?

I can't understand how a lot of Arab countries are just sitting and doing nothing when so many human rights offenses are being committed. Last week the Al Jazeera local news station got warning shots and they had to evacuate.

News reporter were interviewing four young boys playing soccer and not even half an hour later a missile strike killed the four boys in front of the reporters.

Hondaracer

07-23-2014, 01:54 PM

They were tired of Gaza firing random rockets all over the place and finally said we've had enough and moved in with their ground offensive.

Honestly, this shit isn't going to end until isreal just flattens the palastinians and even then, what are you going to do? Emalgamate the remaining "non-threats" into Israeli culture and have suicide bombers non stop?

There's no end in sight for this stuff

xpl0sive

07-23-2014, 01:55 PM

What are these Arab countries you speak of? Saudi Arabia? They have been under US control since the 80's... Iraq? They got their own problems... Iran? I don't really want to see them involved because then the US will have to step in and the crazy Iranian fucks will fire nukes. No good for anyone

meme405

07-23-2014, 01:55 PM

:Popcorn

This ought to be good.

fsy82

07-23-2014, 01:59 PM

fsy82

07-23-2014, 02:01 PM

Its not even about the "war" anymore. The stories are about innocent kids being killed. How does destroying a hospital or firing into heavily populated civilians area help their war?

Hondaracer

07-23-2014, 02:02 PM

They were exchanging fire after those kids got killed

Forever now though Gaza has been firing rockets into Israeli territory, shit
Is like WW2 with occupied France firing V2's into London

Hondaracer

07-23-2014, 02:03 PM

nma

07-23-2014, 02:10 PM

zionist bs incoming!!!!!!!

Hondaracer

07-23-2014, 02:12 PM

When it actually ditrecty involves Jews there is no conspiracy

GS8

07-23-2014, 02:14 PM

fsy82

07-23-2014, 02:14 PM

What have either side been doing for the past 10 years besides sending messages?

There has been conflict for many years but now its gotten to another level. Thats where a lot of people draw the line. First rule of war is to make sure the innocent are not killed.

There will be pro Israel and pro Palestine people on here but try to look at it this way. Look at this situation as a human being. What did a 1 year old child do to deserve to be killed? Or 4 brothers in their young teens?

Ulic Qel-Droma

07-23-2014, 02:37 PM

go back far enough and you'll see the jewish empire shrink just like Palestine did lol.

it's just an exchange of territory, done in the most old fashion way possible.

just a game us humans play over and over and over and over and over and over again.

being 2014AC vs 900BC makes no difference. technology may have changed, but the ones wielding it haven't.

we are still human. and we will conduct business like humans do.

to be honest...

(israel and all that they encompass) + (Palestinians and all that they encompass) = current result.

there is no other answer to this equation. this is literally the only way things could have turned out. no matter how many times we turn back time or try to change the dynamics of the game... the same result will happen.

like drunk driving, the problem isnt the rules or the cars or the alcohol... its people.
just like gun laws. drug laws. any other form of control. they dont work, because the issue is human nature. not anything else.

we are the reason why everything is the way it is. no more, no less.

that being said, anyone that disagrees, please provide a solution where both parties would agree and put their guns down lol.

sorry, there isnt a solution as long as homo sapiens are the actors, that was a trick question.

instead of hating on this situation, we should be proud, proud that we're not dropping nukes and defending our values (subjective to individuals/cultures/religions) and wants and needs at ANY COST even at the annihilation of the self and everyone around us.

this is literally a blessing in disguise. it provides dynamic change and advancement, hidden in a shroud of death and misery (it's okay, more babies will be borned. those civilians and soldiers will be replaced so we can perpetuate this mode of advancement).

advancement is a machine gun, and human life is the ammo. no doubt about it.

it sucks, sorta. i mean, we here in vancouver are enjoying an artificial environment built on hundreds of thousands of years of advancement built on bloodshed. who are we to say it's bad lol. we are living off of it, and so will our kids. and their kids. etc.

i mean, part of me thinks its really bad, but ... the other part of me goes... "i dont think humans have known any other way, there has never been another way? is another way just a delusional thought? some idealistic thought? lol, maybe this IS the best way..."

history proves so.

Ball.J.Inder

07-23-2014, 02:46 PM

Israeli government seems to be a little trigger happy, when they can find other ways to go after the militants without bombing the city where children are everywhere.

Hamas and the militants on the other hand have been provoking Israel for years by shooting rockets at Israeli civilians and bombing busses, yet no one on facebook or what not seemed to care about that? US funding provides Israel's offensive weapons, but the US also helped develop the Iron Dome which is why we don't see posts of dead Israeli children and civilians.

Long story short, both sides are fucked up and nothing we can do but let them fight it out. Israel will continue to defend themselves without discrepancy between civilians and militants, and palestinian militants will continually attack civilians and hide within their own people like cowards.

Presto

07-23-2014, 03:19 PM

palestinian militants will continually attack civilians and hide within their own people like cowards.

Hamas militants. The Palestinians are their meat shields.

Hamas's Civilian Death Strategy (http://online.wsj.com/articles/thane-rosenbaum-civilian-casualties-in-gaza-1405970362)

Let's state the obvious: No one likes to see dead children. Well, that's not completely true: Hamas does. They would prefer those children to be Jewish, but there is greater value to them if they are Palestinian. Outmatched by Israel's military, handicapped by rocket launchers with the steady hands of Barney Fife, Hamas is playing the long game of moral revulsion.

With this conflict about to enter its third week, winning the PR war is the best Hamas can hope to achieve. Their weapon of choice, however, seems to be the cannon fodder of their own people, performing double duty in also sounding the drumbeat of Israeli condemnation. If you can't beat Iron Dome, then deploy sacrificial children as human shields.

Civilian casualties will continue to mount. The evolving story will focus on the collateral damage of Palestinian lives. Israel's moral dilemma will receive little attention. Each time the ledgers of relative loss are reported, world public opinion will turn against the Jewish state and box Israel into an even tighter corner of the Middle East.

All the ordinary rules of warfare are upended in Gaza. Everything about this conflict is asymmetrical—Hamas wears no uniforms and they don't meet Israeli soldiers on battlefields. With the exception of kaffiyeh scarves, it isn't possible to distinguish a Hamas militant from a noncombatant pharmacist. In Vietnam, the U.S. military learned guerrilla warfare in jungles. In Gaza, the Jewish state has had to adapt to the altogether surreal terrain of apartment complexes and schoolhouses.

There are now reports that Hamas and Islamic Jihad are transporting themselves throughout Gaza in ambulances packed with children. Believe it or not, a donkey laden with explosives detonated just the other day.

The asymmetry is complicated even further by the status of these civilians. Under such maddening circumstances, are the adults, in a legal and moral sense, actual civilians? To qualify as a civilian one has to do more than simply look the part. How you came to find yourself in such a vulnerable state matters. After all, when everyone is wearing casual street clothing, civilian status is shared widely.

The people of Gaza overwhelmingly elected Hamas, a terrorist outfit dedicated to the destruction of Israel, as their designated representatives. Almost instantly Hamas began stockpiling weapons and using them against a more powerful foe with a solid track record of retaliation.

What did Gazans think was going to happen? Surely they must have understood on election night that their lives would now be suspended in a state of utter chaos. Life expectancy would be miserably low; children would be without a future. Staying alive would be a challenge, if staying alive even mattered anymore.

To make matters worse, Gazans sheltered terrorists and their weapons in their homes, right beside ottoman sofas and dirty diapers. When Israel warned them of impending attacks, the inhabitants defiantly refused to leave.

On some basic level, you forfeit your right to be called civilians when you freely elect members of a terrorist organization as statesmen, invite them to dinner with blood on their hands and allow them to set up shop in your living room as their base of operations. At that point you begin to look a lot more like conscripted soldiers than innocent civilians. And you have wittingly made yourself targets.

It also calls your parenting skills into serious question. In the U.S. if a parent is found to have locked his or her child in a parked car on a summer day with the windows closed, a social worker takes the children away from the demonstrably unfit parent. In Gaza, parents who place their children in the direct line of fire are rewarded with an interview on MSNBC where they can call Israel a genocidal murderer.

The absurdity of Israel's Gaza campaigns requires an entirely new terminology for the conduct of wars. "Enemy combatants," "theater of war," "innocent civilians," "casualties of war" all have ambiguous meaning in Gaza. There is nothing casual about why so many Gazans die; these deaths are tragically predictable and predetermined. Hamas builds tunnels for terrorists and their rockets; bomb shelters for the people of Gaza never entered the Hamas leaders' minds.

So much innocence is lost in this citizen army, which serves as the armor for demented leaders and their dwindling arsenal of rockets and martyrs. In Gaza the death toll of civilians is an endgame disguised as a tragedy. It is a sideshow—without death, Hamas has nothing to show for its efforts.

Surely there are civilians who have been killed in this conflict who have taken every step to distance themselves from this fast-moving war zone, and children whose parents are not card-carrying Hamas loyalists. These are the true innocents of Gaza. It is they for whom our sympathy should be reserved. The impossibility of identifying them, and saving them, is Israel's deepest moral dilemma.

haymura

07-23-2014, 03:21 PM

Clip - HUMMUS - YouTube

Ronin

07-23-2014, 03:40 PM

Honestly, I'm willing to let this work itself out. I'm not all that bothered by any of the Middle East anymore. There's enough stuff for us to work out here for me to use my limited amount of care on.

Yes, civilian deaths are horrible but there isn't a damn thing any of us can do about it and the West should just stay out of it anyways. Every time the West interferes with the Middle East, something else catastrophic happens so how about we just let them do their thing?

StylinRed

07-23-2014, 03:42 PM

Older members who may remember my past posts, were probably expecting me to make a thread about this but I've been refraining to do so for a couple reasons

1) being the tragic situation is just getting me too emotional to post about

2) I've been concerned that CiC's imminent joining in on the discussion will turn off everyone else to the tragedy of the situation.

So i'll try to make this short and then retreat from the discussion.

This latest incident started because 3 Israeli teens who live in colonies taken over from Palestinians were killed after hitchhiking, it's unknown who killed them or why but Israel took this opportunity to blame Hamas as it was the perfect situation to paint blame as Hamas was finally conforming with the West Bank and forming a unity government (which incensed Israel)

This caused Israeli citizens to kidnap and beat a Palestinian boy and then burning him alive.

That's what sparked the conflict, prior to that the ceasefire was seemingly working aside from the economic blockade not being lifted. But now we have a repeat of the destruction of Gaza.

And Israel keeps trying to justify murder but :seriously: you can't justify murder not even the Nazis did that. There are now Over 650 civilian deaths, thousands injured and well over 100,000 displaced within their ghetto.

Yes I call Gaza a ghetto because that's what it is...everything about it is monitored and controlled by Israel, most homes did not have running water even before this incursion and Gaza itself only has electricity for several hours a day, Hospitals are kept with inadequate supply of meds, homes are still in tatters from the prior conflicts as construction supplies are kept out of the area; food is scarce as well, that's a ghetto.

There are only 2 entrances into the ghetto and they are kept locked so the only way to get any form of supplies into the ghetto are through tunnels, tunnels which Israel has consistently layed waste to. How is it not a Ghetto? how is whats described not like Nazi ghettos which had secret routes where Jews used to bring in food or help people escape? Gaza is a ghetto.

Israel drops leaflets or makes phone calls before they bomb an area but BBC news correspondents say from the moment leaflets are dropped or people are called there is less than 1 minute before the bombs actually drop. So civilians have to run as fast as they can from one corner of the ghetto to the other...the psychological effects must be staggering.

Israel just bombed a Hospital, a hospital! There have been numerous news correspondents for agencies/channels like ABC News, CNN, Reuters who have been speaking out against what they've been witnessing on the ground (from indiscriminate attacks on civilians to Israelis cheering over the bombing of homes) those correspondents have been removed from their posts...CiC made a post about that but I've no doubt it went largely ignored due to the "CiC effect".

I know Israel is trying to make a case with the "rockets" that militants are firing in (there is some merit there) but what people don't realize is that, previously, those rockets were homemade coffee cans that don't make it past the fields into any habitable area and those that do make it through simply knock the paint off of a house (thats how weak they were)

In addition to that, the rockets had only been flying into occupied territories, cities taken over by Israel by throwing out Palestinians (Gazans) from their homes and moving Israelis in, so it would be like me throwing rocks at my home after you kicked me out of it!

I know It may sound like I'm saying 'come on so what?' but I'm not I just want a better picture of whats actually going on because people who look at the issue passingly, imagine actual military type rockets and think that they're landing into an inhabited area that's also legitimately Israels and (but they weren't)

I admit this time around though the militants seem to have stronger rockets that are reaching further in and capable of causing actual damage to the point of activating the Israeli Iron Dome.

So let me say here I don't agree with the militants and Hamas' tactics! I actually think it's the dumbest thing they could do because they know it won't do anything except illicit Israels indiscriminate murder of Palestinians.

But I understand why they're fighting back, in what I imagine they view to be, the best way they know how. After all they're psychologically tortured, economically deprived, and malnourished, uneducated people (thanks to Israel)... So who wouldn't be fighting back in anyway possible after being subjected to the atrocities they have been? even Jews fought back against the Nazis whichever way they knew how. But at least there was an end for the Jewish plight as the world came to their aid...The question is when will it come for Palestinians.

edit israel bombed a hospital again today saying that only militants were in the hospital -_-

SiRV

07-23-2014, 05:51 PM

UN has been useless for most military affairs since the Rwandan genocide... they really should be disbanded to save all govts some money.

falcon

07-23-2014, 06:24 PM

Its not even about the "war" anymore. The stories are about innocent kids being killed. How does destroying a hospital or firing into heavily populated civilians area help their war?

Hamas uses built up civilian areas to fire rockets from and base their groups. Something like 15 launchers were found in a primary school in Gaza.

This is the problem with Hamas/ They COULD fire from open unpopulated areas but they don't. They use the civilians as cover. Until now Israel has had a lot of restraint NOT firing rockets to where they were coming from. And instead of carpet bombing the areas they decided to go in on foot to limit as many casualties.

I've read hours on the topic over the last few weeks and there is so much more to everything. There is a really good AMA on Reddit that has a lot of the background info going back to the 1800's and how it got where it is today.

I don't support civilians being killed, but at what point do they go "enough is enough with all these rockets, were going in".. that happened now. Something like 2,200 rockets have been fired from Gaza into Israel since July 8th. Think about that for a minute.

Hamas as openly said they are for the complete destruction of the state of Israel and the killing of Jews. Who is the real terrorist organization? Not Israel.

falcon

07-23-2014, 06:25 PM

The whole Flotilla incident back in 2010 got me interested in investigating the Israel / Palestinian conflict. Let's just say I have my own views on this matter and they don't sway in favour of the Israeli government at all.

There are Arabs & Jews who only want to coexist in peace with each other but that will never happen with stubborn, rich, powerful sociopathical politicians who spout rhetoric like a broken record, feeling that if you throw the words against the oblivious over and over again that it will eventually stick.

Between Benny and Kerry, the latter comes off as the marionette.

Something a lot of people forget is there is something like 1.5 million Arabs living happily IN Israel, with full citizenship and democratic rights. It is not the people who want Israel to go away, it's Hamas. And until they are completely disbanded, there will never be a chance for peace.

murd0c

07-23-2014, 06:33 PM

can someone thread ban CiC from this off the bat so he doesn't destroy this one like with the others he normally does?

tiger_handheld

07-23-2014, 08:46 PM

Dan D

07-23-2014, 09:01 PM

DragonChi

07-23-2014, 09:43 PM

This Land Is Mine on Vimeo

I've Never Seen the Israel / Palestine Conflict Illustrated More Uniquely Than This (http://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/this_land_is_mine/)

CorneringArtist

07-23-2014, 10:05 PM

this may sound stupid and noob but why can't there be two states (Gaza + west bank) + Israel?
I understand both places want Jerusalem as the capital so why can't they have a east/west.

Do educate my noobness. I'm ears.

Because all parties want to lay claim to all the land as Jerusalem and the surrounding is the holy lands of three religions, .

I support Palestine getting reasonable territorial claim, but Hamas is hurting their cause. I used to think Israel's actions were justified until their attacks started to get indiscriminate. The only way this will resolve itself is if (and it's a big if) both sides sit down and talk like men, rather than just shell each others. If either side has procured surface-to-surface missiles (or in the IDF's case, using laser-guided bombs with their air force), I would not be surprised to see their use if the conflict worsens to improve accuracy at the cost of more destruction.

This can only go two ways: mutually assured destruction, or negotiation. However, both sides will be at a deadlock because of both politics, and religion.

MG1

07-23-2014, 10:33 PM

Peace will never come to that region. Not in anyone's lifetime. It exemplifies all that is wrong with humans.

No amount of suffering and pain will be enough, because none of them can say enough is enough. It's always eye for an eye. The only solution is for them to kill each other until nobody is left alive.

All we can hope for is, that all that hate and anger doesn't spill over to us. Canada, Oh Canada, I love you more than ever when I see and hear all the shit that happens elsewhere. What we bitch and whine about here is nothing compared to the shit that happens over there.

Just watched some of the protests here in this country. Damn, they're continuing that shit over here now. Come here, that's fine, but leave your shit behind!

god bless.............

CRS

07-23-2014, 10:46 PM

Its not about the land, its about religion. It is clear that muslims (and some christians) hate jews and will do whatever it takes to get rid of them. Israel is the worlds leader in technology and medical advances and last thing they want is a bunch of apes threatening Israels existance. Hamas hides behind the Palestinian children and women, and when the innocent get killed, it acts like a good propaganda source for the westerners to believe in. Gaza is the 2014 hollywood, all they do is film propaganda and stage the brutality.

You realize that this is the product of war right?

There have been so many medical and technological advances due to war and the funding and innovation it creates. I'm by no means saying that war is a good thing but with regards to advances, it produces boat loads of it.

You act like Israel is completely innocent in this but that just isn't the case. Both sides are at fault here with Israel constantly expanding (under armistice) and annexing parts of Palestine.

boostfever

07-23-2014, 11:27 PM

scottsman

07-23-2014, 11:42 PM

At the end of the day both sides are to blame but more responsibility should be with Israel to end the conflict as they are the more advanced nation in a variety of ways.

Ball.J.Inder

07-24-2014, 03:10 AM

Israel even warns palestinians before they bomb them.... Here is an example.

Warning Call to Wafa Hospital Before IDF Targets Site - YouTube

FS1992EG

07-24-2014, 03:45 AM

Israel even warns palestinians before they bomb them.... Here is an example.

Warning Call to Wafa Hospital Before IDF Targets Site - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9AHzUKYk8)

And that makes things much better. Your logic baffles me.

FS1992EG

07-24-2014, 03:47 AM

what a crock of shit, most ridiculous thing I've read in a while. strong first post.

It's about land. But they use religion/terrorism to justify their actions.

FS1992EG

07-24-2014, 03:55 AM

Its not about the land, its about religion. It is clear that muslims (and some christians) hate jews and will do whatever it takes to get rid of them. Israel is the worlds leader in technology and medical advances and last thing they want is a bunch of apes threatening Israels existance. Hamas hides behind the Palestinian children and women, and when the innocent get killed, it acts like a good propaganda source for the westerners to believe in. Gaza is the 2014 hollywood, all they do is film propaganda and stage the brutality.

Hamas represents Palestine as their government. They were elected in 2006 and Israel label them a terrorist organization. But Palestine people are boxed in like rats in a open air box. I call this occupation from my point of view and apartheid from yours.

What would you do if you were living in Richmond and could never leave Richmond ever. But before your parents and great grand parents to move around the GVRD with zero issues.

See my point.

4444

07-24-2014, 05:24 AM

Hamas are a terrorist organization (is there any debate about that), they use the nastiest of tricks (mixing their activities with human life, schools, hospitals, homes, etc) to inflict death on Israel, with whom they hate and want to see dead.

I don't want to see any Palestinians die, simple fact, but Israel, as has been mentioned, has had enough of the terrorists mixing with the innocent civilians, unfortunately, the result is what we have today, civilian deaths.

I would bet that if Israel said "all civilians go to XYZ location, we will not bomb you there" that all the shooting would come from there, as the terrorists would just go there to use a human shield.

We need to care about this because it will make crackers decide that this is a west vs. east issue, which it is and isn't - but everything is becoming more and more polarized, anti muslim, anti west, the islamification of western places by extremists (Birmingham school trojan horse incident), the crazies in Luton, the muslim and neo nazi patrols in parts of london.

As a human race, we are effectively splitting ourselves into two through the actions of extremists. I live amongst many different races, all of whom just want to mix, enjoy life, and live in peace - but then you'll get the idiots locally who go off to fight in Syria.

This Israel / Palestine issue is just more of this theme. It is really sad, especially as I'm not at all religious, and think religion is stupid (beyond teaching morals) - we just need to live in peace, and respect each other, NEVER trying to control a place that isn't of your religion.

tough, really tough.

4444

07-24-2014, 05:28 AM

And that makes things much better. Your logic baffles me.

not to want to start an argument, but it's better than just flattening it.

i assume they target locations for the purpose of disabling the terrorists, who use residential locations to store weapons.

I'd rather have a warning, as a civilian, that my place is going to get flattened, than just getting killed. I may have nothing, but at least i'd be alive.

these innocent people have nothing anyway, Hamas has made sure of that by not relinquishing power (i say this from the perspective that if Hamas truly cared about it's country and people, it'd do what's best for them in the here and now - there will never be true freedom for the Palestinian people)

dvst8

07-24-2014, 05:44 AM

For educational purposes....
Israel and Palestine An Easy Animated Explanation - YouTube

Presto

07-24-2014, 06:35 AM

^^^
What a steaming load of propaganda

Bouncing Bettys

07-24-2014, 06:59 AM

Stopped giving fucks long ago and I won't be giving them again until the entire state of Israel is deconstructed. If they insist on having a Jewish state, they can be relocated somehwere largely uninhabited or where the neighbours will tolerate them. If being against Israel makes me an anti-semite, so be it. I have trouble tolerating
anyone who can't employ logic and reason - muslims, christians, conspiracy nuts, etc I dislike them equally. There simply is no logic in maintaining a state in such a volatile region and no justification for the actions taken.

MG1

07-24-2014, 07:26 AM

.......and no justification for the actions taken.

It keeps a lot of people in power.

Like I said previously, it's all about the worst things in human behaviour. Power, greed, hate, self righteousness, inferiority/superiority complex, martyrdom, jealousy, revenge, etc. All founded in fear mongering. War is big business and tends to bring a society together. The region could be termed the devil's backyard playground. Generations of people who have never experienced peace. They know of nothing else but hurting each other in as many ways as possible.

Sad part is, the innocent always suffer, while the puppeteers keep on keeping on.

Dan D

07-24-2014, 09:15 AM

what a crock of shit, most ridiculous thing I've read in a while. strong first post.
call it "crock of shit" but these are facts

4444

07-24-2014, 09:19 AM

call it "crock of shit" but these are facts

Is this CiC in slightly less crazy clothing?

Dan D

07-24-2014, 09:27 AM

What would you do if you were living in Richmond and could never leave Richmond ever. But before your parents and great grand parents to move around the GVRD with zero issues.

See my point.

see my point now, what would you do if you were living in BC, and all the provinces around you, Washington state, and all the other states hated you because you live in BC? How would it feel to be living in such a small patch of land and be hated by a group group of people that outnumbers yours 50/1.

multicartual

07-24-2014, 09:38 AM

see my point now, what would you do if you were living in BC, and all the provinces around you, Washington state, and all the other states hated you because you live in BC? How would it feel to be living in such a small patch of land and be hated by a group group of people that outnumbers yours 50/1.

Don't bother trying to explain it to people, waste of time man.

tool001

07-24-2014, 09:48 AM

propaganda or not.

this is going way to long for israel to keep bombing gaza and killing innocent civilians in the crossfire.. sad to watch

Ulic Qel-Droma

07-24-2014, 09:49 AM

war is bad!!!

drunk driver hits innocent, "they should hang him!!!"

lol. do people not see, that this is the exact slippery slope type of thinking that 99% of revscene has?

YOU GUYS would be the ones firing rockets at each other.

everyone that is heavily opposed still has not posted a realistic solution.

hell not even realistic, they can't even post an idealistic solution.

even with free energy, elimination of rarity (ability to synthesize elements so that there is basically no more supply/demand), and free weed for all... they would still fight.

even with MORE land that magically appears for them to share or for one side to move to, they would STILL FIGHT.

this is the best POSSIBLE solution given what we have.

it's exactly like revscene's attitude toward the mainlanders in richmond. you think if such a pathetic small thing like what the mainlanders are doing in richmond "ticks" you off... what the fuck do you guys think you'd be doing if you were israeli, or Palestinian? you guys would be at each other's necks with the "i don't give a fuck, it's MY CHOICE, MY LAND, MY COUNTRY, MY CULTURE"

you don't need to look far to see why the way things are. just look at yourselves. you guys are terrorists and innocent killers, just you haven't been rattled enough to pull the trigger.

we're all terrorists and innocent killers given the right situation. just we'd view ourselves as liberators...

hypocrites.

but of course only 1% of revscene would agree with me to just be accepting and inviting.
of course that's easy to say when it's not YOUR land. but when we talk about richmond, you guys are ready to fire rockets "get the fuck out of my country". lol. lol.... LOL.

m!chael

07-24-2014, 10:09 AM

I think it's easy to get caught up in the mayhem and pick sides, but that does nothing but trivialize the hardships that both sides experience. Instead of becoming human rights experts only when lives are lost, people should be active in encouraging peace and social progress. I know that there is a strong center-left movement in Israel that has been making grounds in the last couple of years. Politicians that flat out said that the two-state solution is the only way Israel can survive into the future. People need to support these movements and politicians, and encourage the same on the Palestinian side. Palestinians need to demand more from their politicians and representatives. Hamas spends tens if not hundreds of millions building tunnels underground into Israel while complaining that they don’t have enough money to pay their civil servants.

It's easy to watch a few youtube videos and become a middle-east conflict expert, but there are real people in these conflicts. They deserve better than generalizations and catchy slogans.

Lomac

07-24-2014, 10:30 AM

Make Jerusalem and Bethlehem no-state cities, perhaps run by the UN and patrolled by peacekeepers. Revert the Palestine/Israel border to what it was like back in '47 and make sure all countries sign an agreement that places severe sanctions on either country that attempts to invade the other.

Boom.

:p

falcon

07-24-2014, 10:40 AM

this may sound stupid and noob but why can't there be two states (Gaza + west bank) + Israel?
I understand both places want Jerusalem as the capital so why can't they have a east/west.

Do educate my noobness. I'm ears.

The only reason, Hamas wants Israel gone and dead. They will never agree to a two state solution. Look up the Khartoum Resolution, Khartoum Resolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

The Arabic countries, mostly Gaza but others have shown support of this "Resoltion" which basically says; no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with it.

The three "no's"

Also, Hamas's charter is quite disturbing, read it if you have time.

StylinRed

07-24-2014, 11:44 AM

not to want to start an argument, but it's better than just flattening it.

i assume they target locations for the purpose of disabling the terrorists, who use residential locations to store weapons.

I'd rather have a warning, as a civilian, that my place is going to get flattened, than just getting killed. I may have nothing, but at least i'd be alive.

as mentioned these warnings are bs there's about 1 minutes time from the warning to the bombs landing, you've said you watch the bbc daily surely you've seen them mention this on the news?

you have to remember these are apartment buildings with large families in them how in the hell are they expected to get out and away from the blast zone in time?

these innocent people have nothing anyway, Hamas has made sure of that by not relinquishing power (i say this from the perspective that if Hamas truly cared about it's country and people, it'd do what's best for them in the here and now - there will never be true freedom for the Palestinian people)

Hamas was democratically elected...and from that moment they were ostracized by the international community (fine) but so were the Gazans
This is just like the IRA split where a faction decided to continue being warring militants while another faction was trying the legal/democratic route. after all Hamas was keeping with a ceasefire while still having members being assassinated by Israel and they were forming a unity government with the West Bank... positive steps that were stamped out with this current situation.

Are there better ways to go about occupation/invasion, especially in the case of the Palestinians? certainly but unless something changes health wise, educationally, psychologically, socially, I don't see that changing and the only way those changes can come about is if Israel stops impeding and destroying life for them especially when Palestinians & Hamas tries to change.

For educational purposes....
Israel and Palestine An Easy Animated Explanation - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0yy-pzoFg0&feature=youtu.be)

^^^
What a steaming load of propaganda

Actually that's accurate...

multicartual

07-24-2014, 11:57 AM

Look at all the time and energy you people wasted over this bullshit!

StylinRed

07-24-2014, 01:02 PM

So Israel just bombed a UN run school in Gaza which was housing families escaping the destruction 15 were killed 200 injured while the BBC was filming at the hospital an Israel tank shell hits outside the hospital. The death toll stands at over 750 now

Video in the link BBC News - Gaza UN school shelter hit, 'killing 15' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28468526)

Gaza UN school shelter hit, 'killing 15'

At least 15 people were killed and more than 200 injured when a UN-run school used as a shelter in Gaza came under fire, Gazan health officials say.

Palestinian families were in the school in Beit Hanoun, fleeing Israel's offensive against Hamas militants.

In the past 16 days of fighting, more than 750 Palestinians and 33 Israelis have been killed, officials say.

This is the buffer zone Israel has created the already densely packed Gaza. Everyone in the buffer zone is called to leave

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76483000/gif/_76483328_gaza_shejaiya_23_07_14_624map.gif

multicartual

07-24-2014, 01:09 PM

Ulic Qel-Droma

07-24-2014, 01:12 PM

excuse my ignorance but.... wouldn't the gaza strip population be exponentially shrinking?

no one can go in or leave? and i'm sure they're being killed faster than they reproduce right?

at this rate of war, when will they lose by default just from being unable to maintain their population rate to cover the amount of land they defend?

StylinRed

07-24-2014, 02:17 PM

Gaza is the muslim militant's dream come true, it is the best recruiting tool for the extremists!

It is basically like the rest of the muslim world wants those people to suffer and get killed and fight a proxy war against Israel to lose so that it helps foster worldwide extremism and solidarity between muslims. Providing a common enemy brings them together.

That place is like, performance art.

"Look at our suffering! The Jews hate us!"

You may be right as it boggles the mind that the only country willing to provide support, even if its just lip service, is Shia Iran (Palestine's sunni)
All the other countries don't care, even terror groups like the current flavour of the month ISIS says the true enemy are Shias that's why they don't care about Israel http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/.premium-1.605097

Ball.J.Inder

07-24-2014, 05:15 PM

An interesting page... whether the majority of it is real I don't know.

https://www.facebook.com/muslim4israel/timeline

CharlesInCharge

07-24-2014, 05:38 PM

Im interested in knowing more about the CIC effect :p

We basically have a culture of ignorace, Id like to speculate its because there are many mildy autistic adults in our population but the probable truth is people are heavily indoctornated not to question alternative sources.
Strangley I dont even have to post conspiracy links in the following to prove my points yet people will knowingly or unknowingly stay dumb and never adopt this truth...
The truth, Jews are being used as military and political personal for one world government aspirations.

1. First of all the original Jews of the past are mixed amoung the present day Palestians.
Israel's surprising best seller contradicts founding ideology
Israel's surprising best seller contradicts founding ideology | The Electronic Intifada (http://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-surprising-best-seller-contradicts-founding-ideology/7753)

2. When the Rothschilds owned the Bank of England it funded the Nazi regime (killing and expelling Jews) during the same time it established Isreal.

Proof of this can be found in an article by the UK Telegrpah which originated before Canada and overtime even Canada's own Conrad Black (once the world's third biggest newspaper magnate) once owned it.
It shows how the Bank of England (owned by Rothschilds as its actual British history) was funding Hitler.
Never mind the Czech gold the Nazis stole... - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/bank-of-england/10213988/Never-mind-the-Czech-gold-the-Nazis-stole....html)
During the war the BIS proclaimed that it was neutral, a view supported by the Bank of England. In fact the BIS was so entwined with the Nazi economy that it helped keep the Third Reich in business.
.....
This interest was used by the BIS to pay dividends to shareholders – which included the Bank of England.

The BBC showing Rothschilds establishment of Isreal.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-20524115
The 1917 Declaration, in the form of a letter by the then foreign secretary Arthur Balfour to Lord Rothschild, is regarded as the first significant assertion by a world power of their support for a Jewish "national home" in what was then known as Palestine.

Gaza is the muslim militant's dream come true, it is the best recruiting tool for the extremists!
.......
"Look at our suffering! The Jews hate us!"

Multicartual how would you commentary the US fundings?

Israel is still the #1 foreign recipient of US welfare
Each year, the United States gives Israel about $3.1 billion in military assistance, a commitment that stems from the 1978 Camp David accord that led to peace between Israel and Egypt. Those billions are roughly divided into two funding streams. About $800 million underwrites Israeli manufacturing of weaponry and military products. The rest finances what is essentially a gift card that the Israeli military uses to procure arms and military equipment from US military contractors. It can be safely assumed, says a US expert on aid to Israel, that all units of the Israel Defense Forces benefit from US assistance—and this obviously includes those units fighting in Gaza. So to a certain degree, the destruction in Gaza does have a made-in-the-USA stamp.

But at the same time, the US government is financing efforts to deal with the awful consequences of Israeli attacks. The UNWRA noted in a July 21 situation report that it is operating 67 shelters that are harboring more than 84,000 Palestinians. It is distributing food (in one day, nearly 55,000 tins of tuna and 16,000 loaves of bread), water, baby hygiene kits, blankets, and mattresses to these shelters. It is removing solid waste. It is running up to 21 health clinics, as security permits. The report notes that UNWRA's shelters are overwhelmed with huge numbers of displaced Palestinians

Someone calculate how many Ferrari Italia's you can buy for $250,000 a piece at 3.2 billion a year. Why all this money to support a place for people to practice Judaism?

bobbinka

07-24-2014, 06:52 PM

there he is!

Hondaracer

07-24-2014, 07:41 PM

StylinRed

07-24-2014, 08:02 PM

^^ yeah I'm sure a UN run school and a media-ridden hospital will have militants launching rockets from them

FS1992EG

07-24-2014, 08:56 PM

http://i40.tinypic.com/k013lg.gif

honestly i think this whole thing talk about "civilians" is irrelevant

neither side gives a fuck about "civilians" to me its actually kind of funny how us sitting over here in safe Canada relaxing in our homes are worried about "civilians" over there

there is no line, it's Israeli's VS Palestinians, thats it.

and i'm sure its exactly like the Israeli's have been saying, that these "targets" which have been shooting rockets from Gaza are indeed hospitals, schools, etc. Hamas just uses them thinking they wont be bombed

Your not smart.

War is about killing the enemy soldiers, not killing civilians. This ordeal is a war crime and punishable in the World Court. Israel has committed them countless time during this siege to fight the "terrorists"

Israel has never declared it's boarders and don't even recognize Palestine. When Israel pushes the Palestinians into the sea or Eygpt. They will declare themselves as a country and tell the UN that they were not subject to war crimes because they weren't declared a state, country, or nation at the time of the events.

bobbinka

07-24-2014, 09:09 PM

Your not smart.

:pokerface:

...

..

:lawl:

CharlesInCharge

07-24-2014, 09:19 PM

For all the14 dollar ballers in this forum, here's a break down visual of how much the US tax payer sends to Isreal every month... you dont want to know how many decades this has been going on for.

Doing some calculations...
3,200,000,000 billion a year welfare divided by $250,000 (price of used Ferrari Italia) = 12,800 Italia's a year.

12,800 cars divided by 12 months = 1066 Italia's a month

The US gives over 1000 Ferrari Italia's to Isreal every month, or actually 35 a day, Why?
What 1000 Ferrari's look like.

With video
Fleet of nearly 1,000 Ferraris worth more than £100m smash world record for biggest ever supercar parade | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2204109/Fleet-nearly-1-000-Ferraris-worth-100m-smash-world-record-biggest-supercar-parade.html)

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/09/16/article-2204109-150A9F3F000005DC-911_642x825.jpg

http://elitedaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Ferrari-458.jpeg
http://i.imgur.com/u2Cyumk.jpg
http://www.zerotohundred.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/ferrari_5.jpg

CivicBlues

07-25-2014, 09:43 AM

QFT:

The differences between Hamas and Israel are so profound, it’s almost as though the two aren’t living in the same century.

The Hamas war against Israel pits cheap rockets — basically the 21st-century version of an exploding cannonball — against a high-tech military so sophisticated, it can send harmless “door-knocking” bombs to land on the roofs of buildings to warn its targets inside that the next live bomb will level the place.

One side is monstrous but hapless: Hamas is looking to create mass terror through the deliberate targeting of enemy civilians, has fired 500 rockets, and has killed exactly one Israeli.

The other side is effective, at times to its own disadvantage: Israel wants to eliminate weapons caches and does whatever it can to minimize civilian casualties but has killed 200 in Gaza — almost entirely because Hamas wants to use its own people both as human shields and as public-relations weapons.

But take the war away, and what do you see about the differences between Hamas and Israel?

It was nine years ago that Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza. It was seven years ago that Hamas took control of Gaza following an election in which the terrorist group routed the Palestinian Authority (which controls the West Bank).

The area has been entirely under Palestinian dominion.

Since 2005, Israel’s overall econ$omy has grown almost 60 percent larger, with an annual GDP growth rate of 4.5 percent.

Israel, once the globe’s poorest democracy, ranks 37th among nations in overall GDP and its per-capita income of $31,000 per year makes it the 25th-richest country on Earth.

And Gaza? Its economy is largely frozen. Its per-capita income hovers around $2,000. Because its people elected a terrorist group dedicated to the destruction of Israel, almost all economic ties between the growing economic giant and the basket case have been severed.

No rational outside investor wants to have anything to do with Gaza, given its management and the simple fact that its government seems to be obsessed with getting itself into a destructive war with its neighbor every couple of years.

And not only that, but Gazans exist in a bizarre condition known nowhere else on Earth. Nearly 1.2 million of the area’s 1.5 million residents are classified as “refugees,” notwithstanding the fact that almost all of them were born there. They live in eight “refugee camps” — towns that are now 65 years old.

As Michael Bernstam of the Hoover Institution has written, “These camps were established in 1949 and have been financed ever since by the United Nations Relief and Work Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East. Yet far from seeking to help residents build a new and better life either in Gaza or elsewhere, UNRWA is paying millions of refugees to perpetuate their refugee status, generation after generation, as they await their forcible return to the land inside the State of Israel.”

Ulic Qel-Droma

07-25-2014, 09:44 AM

War is about killing the enemy soldiers, not killing civilians. This ordeal is a war crime and punishable in the World Court.

nah man.

war is about winning.

If I were at war, i'd only follow the rules so I don't make more enemies (only if it's strategically sound). but if I could break the rules and get away with it. I would. If I had to drop a small nuke meaning tons of civilian death, I would do it if necessary.

you must remember, the civilians are the backbone of their economy. if you can cripple the source, they're fucked. if it's strategically sound, and my goal is to WIN, then... yeah, sorry dude. THAT'S WAR.

if I won, fuck the world court, i'd kill em off after too if they wanna oppose me.
if I lose, then the world court can do whatever they want with me... I LOST THE WAR. I took the risk and failed.

that being said. I don't wanna go to war.

But your definition of war is fucked up.

there are no rules. you do what you can.

m!chael

07-25-2014, 10:46 AM

^^ yeah I'm sure a UN run school and a media-ridden hospital will have militants launching rockets from them

Secretary-General, Outraged at Rockets Found in United Nations-administered School in Gaza, Directs Full Review, Swift Implementation of Security Plan (http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs//2014/sgsm16045.doc.htm)

he following statement was issued today by the Spokesman for UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon:

The Secretary-General is alarmed to hear that rockets were placed in an UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East) school in Gaza and that subsequently these have gone missing. He expresses his outrage, and regret, at the placing of weapons in a UN-administered school. By doing so, those responsible are turning schools into potential military targets, and endangering the lives of innocent children, UN employees working in such facilities, and anyone using the UN schools as shelter.

The Secretary-General notes that this is inconsistent with UN Security Council resolution 1860 (2009), which calls for the prevention of arms smuggling. He demands that militant groups, who are responsible, must stop such actions and should be held accountable for endangering the lives of civilians in this manner.

The Secretary-General has asked for a full review of such incidents and how the UN responds in such instances. The United Nations is taking concerted action to increase its vigilance in preventing such episodes from happening again. To this end, the Secretary-General has directed the UN Department of Safety and Security (DSS) and the UN Mine Action Service (UNMAS) to immediately develop and implement an effective security plan for the safe and secure handling of any weapons discovered in United Nations premises. Further, he has directed UNMAS to immediately deploy personnel with expertise to deal with this situation.

The Secretary-General calls on all of those who have any influence over militant groups to send an unmistakable message that this is unacceptable.

Finally, the Secretary-General expresses his full support for the tremendous work of the staff of UNRWA, who continue to operate under deeply challenging circumstances.

I think you have a very selective view of the conflict, maybe its a confirmation bias type thing where you only go to news sources that confirm your own opinion. Who knows. Either way, there has been a lot of reports of militants firing rockets from populated neighborhoods, nearby mosques, hospitals, schools, etc. There has also been evidence that they store weapons in such places.

CivicBlues

07-25-2014, 12:45 PM

Anybody else think that CharlesInCharge and StylinRed are the same person? I don't know, I don't have any evidence to support this claim but then again I don't have any evidence to disprove it either.

So it must be true.

:suspicious:

StylinRed

07-25-2014, 02:29 PM

Secretary-General, Outraged at Rockets Found in United Nations-administered School in Gaza, Directs Full Review, Swift Implementation of Security Plan (http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs//2014/sgsm16045.doc.htm)

I stand corrected damn...I am shocked and disgusted...wow

I think you have a very selective view of the conflict, maybe its a confirmation bias type thing where you only go to news sources that confirm your own opinion. Who knows. Either way, there has been a lot of reports of militants firing rockets from populated neighborhoods, nearby mosques, hospitals, schools, etc. There has also been evidence that they store weapons in such places.
i go to most of them except for FOX and Conspiracy sites that CIC quotes (i guess you could lump fox into those types of sites)
There have always been accusations but never do you see a quote report like the one you provided above...wow

StylinRed

07-25-2014, 03:04 PM

12hr truce while a 7 day truce is being negotiated

over 800 civilians dead and 36 idf agents

BBC News - Gaza conflict: Israel and Hamas 'agree short truce' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28497439)

Gaza conflict: Israel and Hamas 'agree short truce'

Israel and Hamas have agreed to a 12-hour pause in hostilities in Gaza, reports say.

The truce is due to begin at 0800 local time (0500 GMT). Efforts to negotiate a seven-day ceasefire are still ongoing.

Earlier US Secretary of State John Kerry said he was still confident of a longer ceasefire, despite media reports that Israel had rejected one proposal.

Ronin

07-25-2014, 03:11 PM

I can see valid arguments on both sides so I just think we need to stay the fuck out of it and let whatever happens happen because regardless of how the West tries to "help", they're just going to fuck it up more.

Let them resolve it themselves. Sure, plenty of people will die but they couldn't play nice so that's the fate they resigned themselves to. TONS of people have tried to resolve this conflict and every time, it just goes back to "WELL OUR GOD SAYS THIS IS OURS!" "NO, YOUR GOD SMELLS! THIS IS OUR LAND!" and so on. If it has to do with religion, people can't act as rational human beings so just let the ideologists work it out amongst themselves who the holy land belongs to.

Until this somehow affects us in Canada, well, I just can't be bothered anymore.

StylinRed

07-25-2014, 03:47 PM

BBC Hardtalk has a new interview with the Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal

It's quite a good watch, switch to the BBC if you're by your TV

Unfortunately there are only 1-3min clips online currently

It provides a good insight to the view that Hamas is promoting

you can watch the full 30min interview here http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04dfvq9/hardtalk-khaled-meshaal-leader-of-hamas or whenever its airing on tv

Ulic Qel-Droma

07-25-2014, 08:58 PM

Semi NSFW link.

https://www.facebook.com/StandingWithIDF/photos/a.1514911128738429.1073741829.1514835498745992/1515665468662995/?type=1&theater

Just normal everyday for them.

StylinRed

07-26-2014, 04:53 PM

Ceasefire update

The ceasefire has been increased to 24hrs even though Israel continues to search & destroy tunnels and 4 rockets were fired from gaza into Israel but overall it seems like there is a respite

With the ceasefire Palestinians were able to search for survivors in the rubble and the death toll now stands at over 1,033 Gazans + 6,000 injured also 42 Israeli soldiers have died

Also France has banned pro-palestinian protests to the furor of the public and Amnesty International while peace talks are going on in Paris

BBC News - Israel agrees to 24-hour Gaza ceasefire (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28507951)
2 Israeli groups rally in protest and support of the incursion, bbc posted a picture of the protesters (candles write 'sorry' in both arabic and hebrew)

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76549000/jpg/_76549172_38be70ee-73c8-45b3-a614-2daf73a0e798.jpg

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76549000/jpg/_76549168_0efddb20-7889-4fa6-a208-33adaf2877e8.jpg

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76549000/jpg/_76549174_b3701147-5d75-44dd-a31f-87212f3c9743.jpg

Also someone uploaded the full Hardtalk interview with the Hamas leader onto youtube for those interested

edit BBC is removing it so here's another
Hamas Leader khaled Mashal - YouTube

trip

07-26-2014, 09:57 PM

not sure if this was mentioned but i figured this would go in this thread

Students offered grants if they tweet pro-Israeli propaganda - Middle East - World - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/students-offered-grants-if-they-tweet-proisraeli-propaganda-8760142.html)

rslater

07-26-2014, 11:52 PM

trip

07-27-2014, 01:27 AM

Your just as bad as them posting an article from 2013...

right!
because the date of a news article from a legitimate site that correlates to the topic matters if it wasn't written yesterday. :suspicious:

might want to stay out of mature discussions until you can differentiate "your" and "you're". might as well throw in "ridiculous" and "rediculous" in there for you too

FS1992EG

07-27-2014, 02:26 AM

Your just as bad as them posting an article from 2013...

Normalcy bias is strong with this one!

GAGAHAHA

07-27-2014, 10:31 AM

The land is yours if you can take it and defend it. Yay for the Kurds!

Look at turkey. It is still ruled by some foreign culture that came from Central Asian Turkic people. WHy don't people say free anatolia?

Look at our country Canada. It was stolen from the natives. Well.... that sucks for them. But that is a fact of life. If you can defend the land, like Colonial Canada vs America back in 1812, then the land is yours to keep.

As so long as Israel can defend itself we would have an Israel.

I'm not exactly pro jew or pro palestinian. the death toll is fucking gross. both sides are nuts. but many countries around the world recognize israeli soverignty. for now....

FS1992EG

07-27-2014, 10:42 AM

Right now, Israel looks like the bully.

Palestinians look like David and Israel looks like Galith to me.

multicartual

07-27-2014, 11:24 AM

BIG TITS

BLUNTS

TIGHT 21 YEAR OLD VAGINA

FAST CARS

MONEY

^^^

These are what we should be talking about, not about a conflict that doesn't involve pretty much anyone's ethnic or religious groups about 10,000 miles away

Mancini

07-27-2014, 12:57 PM

War-related death of civilians and children is one of the greatest tragedies on this planet. Forcing women & children to martyr themselves to get news headline sympathy is far more heinous.

Ulic Qel-Droma

07-28-2014, 12:42 AM

alls ya's dumbasses listen to this.

He is right.

Why Don't I Criticize Israel? by Exploring the Mind on SoundCloud - Hear the world?s sounds

Why Don?t I Criticize Israel? : : Sam Harris (http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel)

AUDIO TRANSCRIPT [Note: This is a verbatim transcript of a spoken podcast. However, I have added notes like this one to clarify controversial points.—SH]
I was going to do a podcast on a series of questions, but I got so many questions on the same topic that I think I’m just going to do a single response here, and we’ll do the #AskMeAnything next time.
The question I’ve now received in many forms goes something like this: Why is it that you never criticize Israel? Why is it that you never criticize Judaism? Why is it that you always take the side of the Israelis over that of the Palestinians?
Now, this is an incredibly boring and depressing question for a variety of reasons. The first, is that I have criticized both Israel and Judaism. What seems to have upset many people is that I’ve kept some sense of proportion. There are something like 15 million Jews on earth at this moment; there are a hundred times as many Muslims. I’ve debated rabbis who, when I have assumed that they believe in a God that can hear our prayers, they stop me mid-sentence and say, “Why would you think that I believe in a God who can hear prayers?” So there are rabbis—conservative rabbis—who believe in a God so elastic as to exclude every concrete claim about Him—and therefore, nearly every concrete demand upon human behavior. And there are millions of Jews, literally millions among the few million who exist, for whom Judaism is very important, and yet they are atheists. They don’t believe in God at all. This is actually a position you can hold in Judaism, but it’s a total non sequitur in Islam or Christianity.
So, when we’re talking about the consequences of irrational beliefs based on scripture, the Jews are the least of the least offenders. But I have said many critical things about Judaism. Let me remind you that parts of Hebrew Bible—books like Leviticus and Exodus and Deuteronomy—are the most repellent, the most sickeningly unethical documents to be found in any religion. They’re worse than the Koran. They’re worse than any part of the New Testament. But the truth is, most Jews recognize this and don’t take these texts seriously. It’s simply a fact that most Jews and most Israelis are not guided by scripture—and that’s a very good thing.
Of course, there are some who are. There are religious extremists among Jews. Now, I consider these people to be truly dangerous, and their religious beliefs are as divisive and as unwarranted as the beliefs of devout Muslims. But there are far fewer such people.
For those of you who worry that I never say anything critical about Israel: My position on Israel is somewhat paradoxical. There are questions about which I’m genuinely undecided. And there’s something in my position, I think, to offend everyone. So, acknowledging how reckless it is to say anything on this topic, I’m nevertheless going to think out loud about it for a few minutes.
I don’t think Israel should exist as a Jewish state. I think it is obscene, irrational and unjustifiable to have a state organized around a religion. So I don’t celebrate the idea that there’s a Jewish homeland in the Middle East. I certainly don’t support any Jewish claims to real estate based on the Bible. [Note: Read this paragraph again.]
Though I just said that I don’t think Israel should exist as a Jewish state, the justification for such a state is rather easy to find. We need look no further than the fact that the rest of the world has shown itself eager to murder the Jews at almost every opportunity. So, if there were going to be a state organized around protecting members of a single religion, it certainly should be a Jewish state. Now, friends of Israel might consider this a rather tepid defense, but it’s the strongest one I’ve got. I think the idea of a religious state is ultimately untenable.
Needless to say, in defending its territory as a Jewish state, the Israeli government and Israelis themselves have had to do terrible things. They have, as they are now, fought wars against the Palestinians that have caused massive losses of innocent life. More civilians have been killed in Gaza in the last few weeks than militants. That’s not a surprise because Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on Earth. Occupying it, fighting wars in it, is guaranteed to get woman and children and other noncombatants killed. And there’s probably little question over the course of fighting multiple wars that the Israelis have done things that amount to war crimes. They have been brutalized by this process—that is, made brutal by it. But that is largely the due to the character of their enemies. [Note: I was not giving Israel a pass to commit war crimes. I was making a point about the realities of living under the continuous threat of terrorism and of fighting multiple wars in a confined space.]
Whatever terrible things the Israelis have done, it is also true to say that they have used more restraint in their fighting against the Palestinians than we—the Americans, or Western Europeans—have used in any of our wars. They have endured more worldwide public scrutiny than any other society has ever had to while defending itself against aggressors. The Israelis simply are held to a different standard. And the condemnation leveled at them by the rest of the world is completely out of proportion to what they have actually done. [Note: I was not saying that because they are more careful than we have been at our most careless, the Israelis are above criticism. War crimes are war crimes.]
It is clear that Israel is losing the PR war and has been for years now. One of the most galling things for outside observers about the current war in Gaza is the disproportionate loss of life on the Palestinian side. This doesn’t make a lot of moral sense. Israel built bomb shelters to protect its citizens. The Palestinians built tunnels through which they could carry out terror attacks and kidnap Israelis. Should Israel be blamed for successfully protecting its population in a defensive war? I don’t think so. [Note: I was not suggesting that the deaths of Palestinian noncombatants are anything less than tragic. But if retaliating against Hamas is bound to get innocents killed, and the Israelis manage to protect their own civilians in the meantime, the loss of innocent life on the Palestinian side is guaranteed to be disproportionate.]
But there is no way to look at the images coming out Gaza—especially of infants and toddlers riddled by shrapnel—and think that this is anything other than a monstrous evil. Insofar as Israel is the agent of this evil, it seems impossible to support its behavior. And there is no question that the Palestinians have suffered terribly for decades under the occupation. This is where most critics of Israel appear to be stuck. They see these images, and they blame Israel for killing and maiming babies. They see the occupation, and they blame Israel for making Gaza a prison camp. I would argue is a kind of moral illusion, borne of a failure to look at the actual causes of this conflict, as well as of a failure to understand the intentions of the people on either side of it. [Note: I was not saying that the horror of slain children is a moral illusion; nor was I minimizing the suffering of the Palestinians under the occupation. I was claiming that Israel is not primarily to blame for all this suffering.]
The truth is that there is an obvious, undeniable, and hugely consequential moral difference between Israel and her enemies. The Israelis are surrounded by people who have explicitly genocidal intentions towards them. The charter of Hamas is explicitly genocidal. It looks forward to a time, based on Koranic prophesy, when the earth itself will cry out for Jewish blood, where the trees and the stones will say “O Muslim, there’s a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him.” This is a political document. We are talking about a government that was voted into power by a majority of the Palestinians. [Note: Yes, I know that not every Palestinian supports Hamas, but enough do to have brought them to power. Hamas is not a fringe group.]
The discourse in the Muslim world about Jews is utterly shocking. Not only is there Holocaust denial—there’s Holocaust denial that then asserts that we will do it for real if given the chance. The only thing more obnoxious than denying the Holocaust is to say that it should have happened; it didn’t happen, but if we get the chance, we will accomplish it. There are children’s shows that teach five-year-olds about the glories of martyrdom and about the necessity of killing Jews.
And this gets to the heart of the moral difference between Israel and her enemies. And this is something I discussed in The End of Faith. To see this moral difference, you have to ask what each side would do if they had the power to do it.
What would the Jews do to the Palestinians if they could do anything they wanted? Well, we know the answer to that question, because they can do more or less anything they want. The Israeli army could kill everyone in Gaza tomorrow. So what does that mean? Well, it means that, when they drop a bomb on a beach and kill four Palestinian children, as happened last week, this is almost certainly an accident. They’re not targeting children. They could target as many children as they want. Every time a Palestinian child dies, Israel edges ever closer to becoming an international pariah. So the Israelis take great pains not to kill children and other noncombatants. [Note: The word “so” in the previous sentence was regrettable and misleading. I didn’t mean to suggest that safeguarding its reputation abroad would be the only (or even primary) reason for Israel to avoid killing children. However, the point stands: Even if you want to attribute the basest motives to Israel, it is clearly in her self-interest not to kill Palestinian children.]
Now, is it possible that some Israeli soldiers go berserk under pressure and wind up shooting into crowds of rock-throwing children? Of course. You will always find some soldiers acting this way in the middle of a war. But we know that this isn’t the general intent of Israel. We know the Israelis do not want to kill non-combatants, because they could kill as many as they want, and they’re not doing it.
What do we know of the Palestinians? What would the Palestinians do to the Jews in Israel if the power imbalance were reversed? Well, they have told us what they would do. For some reason, Israel’s critics just don’t want to believe the worst about a group like Hamas, even when it declares the worst of itself. We’ve already had a Holocaust and several other genocides in the 20th century. People are capable of committing genocide. When they tell us they intend to commit genocide, we should listen. There is every reason to believe that the Palestinians would kill all the Jews in Israel if they could. Would every Palestinian support genocide? Of course not. But vast numbers of them—and of Muslims throughout the world—would. Needless to say, the Palestinians in general, not just Hamas, have a history of targeting innocent noncombatants in the most shocking ways possible. They’ve blown themselves up on buses and in restaurants. They’ve massacred teenagers. They’ve murdered Olympic athletes. They now shoot rockets indiscriminately into civilian areas. And again, the charter of their government in Gaza explicitly tells us that they want to annihilate the Jews—not just in Israel but everywhere. [Note: Again, I realize that not all Palestinians support Hamas. Nor am I discounting the degree to which the occupation, along with collateral damage suffered in war, has fueled Palestinian rage. But Palestinian terrorism (and Muslim anti-Semitism) is what has made peaceful coexistence thus far impossible.]
The truth is that everything you need to know about the moral imbalance between Israel and her enemies can be understood on the topic of human shields. Who uses human shields? Well, Hamas certainly does. They shoot their rockets from residential neighborhoods, from beside schools, and hospitals, and mosques. Muslims in other recent conflicts, in Iraq and elsewhere, have also used human shields. They have laid their rifles on the shoulders of their own children and shot from behind their bodies.
Consider the moral difference between using human shields and being deterred by them. That is the difference we’re talking about. The Israelis and other Western powers are deterred, however imperfectly, by the Muslim use of human shields in these conflicts, as we should be. It is morally abhorrent to kill noncombatants if you can avoid it. It’s certainly abhorrent to shoot through the bodies of children to get at your adversary. But take a moment to reflect on how contemptible this behavior is. And understand how cynical it is. The Muslims are acting on the assumption—the knowledge, in fact—that the infidels with whom they fight, the very people whom their religion does nothing but vilify, will be deterred by their use of Muslim human shields. They consider the Jews the spawn of apes and pigs—and yet they rely on the fact that they don’t want to kill Muslim noncombatants. [Note: The term “Muslims” in this paragraph means “Muslim combatants” of the sort that Western forces have encountered in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere. The term “jihadists” would have been too narrow, but I was not suggesting that all Muslims support the use of human shields or are anti-Semitic, at war with the West, etc.]
Now imagine reversing the roles here. Imagine how fatuous—indeed comical it would be—for the Israelis to attempt to use human shields to deter the Palestinians. Some claim that they have already done this. There are reports that Israeli soldiers have occasionally put Palestinian civilians in front of them as they’ve advanced into dangerous areas. That’s not the use of human shields we’re talking about. It’s egregious behavior. No doubt it constitutes a war crime. But Imagine the Israelis holding up their own women and children as human shields. Of course, that would be ridiculous. The Palestinians are trying to kill everyone. Killing women and children is part of the plan. Reversing the roles here produces a grotesque Monty Python skit.
If you’re going talk about the conflict in the Middle East, you have to acknowledge this difference. I don’t think there’s any ethical disparity to be found anywhere that is more shocking or consequential than this.
And the truth is, this isn’t even the worst that jihadists do. Hamas is practically a moderate organization, compared to other jihadist groups. There are Muslims who have blown themselves up in crowds of children—again, Muslim children—just to get at the American soldiers who were handing out candy to them. They have committed suicide bombings, only to send another bomber to the hospital to await the casualities—where they then blow up all the injured along with the doctors and nurses trying to save their lives.
Every day that you could read about an Israeli rocket gone astray or Israeli soldiers beating up an innocent teenager, you could have read about ISIS in Iraq crucifying people on the side of the road, Christians and Muslims. Where is the outrage in the Muslim world and on the Left over these crimes? Where are the demonstrations, 10,000 or 100,000 deep, in the capitals of Europe against ISIS? If Israel kills a dozen Palestinians by accident, the entire Muslim world is inflamed. God forbid you burn a Koran, or write a novel vaguely critical of the faith. And yet Muslims can destroy their own societies—and seek to destroy the West—and you don’t hear a peep.
So, it seems to me, that you have to side with Israel here. You have one side which if it really could accomplish its aims would simply live peacefully with its neighbors, and you have another side which is seeking to implement a seventh century theocracy in the Holy Land. There’s no peace to be found between those incompatible ideas. That doesn’t mean you can’t condemn specific actions on the part of the Israelis. And, of course, acknowledging the moral disparity between Israel and her enemies doesn’t give us any solution to the problem of Israel’s existence in the Middle East. [Note: I was not suggesting that Israel’s actions are above criticism or that their recent incursion into Gaza was necessarily justified. Nor was I saying that the status quo, wherein the Palestinians remain stateless, should be maintained. By “siding with Israel,” I am simply recognizing that they are not the primary aggressors in this conflict. They are, rather, responding to aggression—and at a terrible cost.]
Again, granted, there’s some percentage of Jews who are animated by their own religious hysteria and their own prophesies. Some are awaiting the Messiah on contested land. Yes, these people are willing to sacrifice the blood of their own children for the glory of God. But, for the most part, they are not representative of the current state of Judaism or the actions of the Israeli government. And it is how Israel deals with these people—their own religious lunatics—that will determine whether they can truly hold the moral high ground. And Israel can do a lot more than it has to disempower them. It can cease to subsidize the delusions of the Ultra-Orthodox and it can stop building settlements on contested land. [Note: Read that again.]
This incompatible religious attachments to this land has made it impossible for Muslims and Jews to negotiate like rational human beings, and it has made it impossible for them to live in peace. But the onus is still more on the side of the Muslims here. Even on their worst day, the Israelis act with greater care and compassion and self-criticism than Muslim combatants have anywhere, ever.
And again, you have to ask yourself, what do these groups want? What would they accomplish if they could accomplish anything? What would the Israelis do if they could do what they want? They would live in peace with their neighbors, if they had neighbors who would live in peace with them. They would simply continue to build out their high tech sector and thrive.
What do groups like ISIS and al-Qaeda and even Hamas want? They want to impose their religious views on the rest of humanity. They want stifle every freedom that decent, educated, secular people care about. This is not a trivial difference. And yet judging from the level of condemnation that Israel now receives, you would think the difference ran the other way.
This kind of confusion puts all of us in danger. This is the great story of our time. For the rest of our lives, and the lives of our children, we are going to be confronted by people who don’t want to live peacefully in a secular, pluralistic world, because they are desperate to get to Paradise, and they are willing to destroy the very possibility of human happiness along the way. The truth is, we are all living in Israel. It’s just that some of us haven’t realized it yet.

scottsman

07-28-2014, 06:12 PM

Good Read.

tiger_handheld

07-28-2014, 08:47 PM

Re; Hamas interview on BBC

- what does he keep calling the occupation? In his mind, he is saying an isreal should not exist?

keep in mind i'm a noob on this topic :)

StylinRed

07-28-2014, 08:52 PM

Re; Hamas interview on BBC

- what does he keep calling the occupation? In his mind, he is saying an isreal should not exist?

keep in mind i'm a noob on this topic :)

gaza/west bank are being occupied (well the settlements were withdrawn in gaza)

and everything about their economy (or lack thereof) is being controlled by israel hence why i refer to it as a ghetto and why i imagine he calls it an occupation

here's a blog that seems to explain why they still view it as an occupation http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/8807/is-gaza-still-occupied-and-why-does-it-matter (haven't read it mind you just googled it)

FS1992EG

07-28-2014, 09:35 PM

FS1992EG

07-28-2014, 09:39 PM

see my point now, what would you do if you were living in BC, and all the provinces around you, Washington state, and all the other states hated you because you live in BC? How would it feel to be living in such a small patch of land and be hated by a group group of people that outnumbers yours 50/1.

No one hates Israel, I don't hate Israel. I hate what they are doing because they seem to be on this higher than might pedestal.

FS1992EG

07-28-2014, 09:55 PM

alls ya's dumbasses listen to this.

He is right.

Why Don't I Criticize Israel? by Exploring the Mind on SoundCloud - Hear the world?s sounds (http://soundcloud.com/samharrisorg/why-dont-i-criticize-israel)

Why Don?t I Criticize Israel? : : Sam Harris (http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel)

Wow, this don't understand that if every Muslim hate Jews, why Israel continue to exist? They would wipe Israel off the map right?

They guy generalizes his words and uses them to manipulates you into hating Palestine's tactic and loving Israel because they seem to be following the rules by the book.

chunk_stir

07-28-2014, 10:11 PM

Here's a reasonable explanation of the history that has led to the conflict:
A Beginner's Guide to the Israeli Palestinian Conflict - YouTube

Here's a pro-Israel explanation of the conflict:
The Middle East Problem - YouTube

Here's a pro-Palestine explanation:
Israel and Palestine, an animated introduction - YouTube

Ulic Qel-Droma

07-28-2014, 10:37 PM

Wow, this don't understand that if every Muslim hate Jews, why Israel continue to exist? They would wipe Israel off the map right?

They guy generalizes his words and uses them to manipulates you into hating Palestine's tactic and loving Israel because they seem to be following the rules by the book.

that's because he's looking at the whole picture.

and Israel can take on the entire middle east by themselves. i'm pretty god damn sure. and the americans would back them up. thats why they continue to exist. thats the only reason they continue to exist.

if hamas threw down their weapons tomorrow, what would become of them?

if israel threw down all their weapons, what would become of them?

he is right from a "moral" and logical point of view dude. he has answered and logically broken down every single answer.

he is right, if it were up to the ones that opposed the jews... the jews would get slaughtered, every single one of them.

if it were up to the jews, there would be less fighting.

that's all it comes down to. that israel would be a better neighbour (even with their crazy extremist zealots)... vs the other side, along with everything they come with.

israel doesn't follow the rules by the book. but like he says, if you heard israel doing what the palestinians were doing, you'd think the israelis have gone mad.

but why is it ok when the palestinians do it? EVERYTHING "bad" israel has done, the Palestinians have done worse, and have OPENLY said they'd do worse if they had the chance.

I'm purely taking a stance on which side i'd take if i had to choose one of those guys to be my earthly neighbours.

one brings more direct harm. there's no doubt about it.

there is no argument.

and again, israel is around cuz their enemies cannot actually DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. they cant flatten israel. not a chance.

but israel has the power to just fucking go in and flatten ALL OF THEM. but they don't. if they played by the same rules as their enemies, all of israels enemies would be wiped off the faced of the planet in a snap of a finger.

like honestly, i was on the edge of feeling bad for the Palestinians... but then i realised I was only focusing on that area. There's a lot more to it than just the gaza strip. if you look at the whole picture... of the whole religion, and whole thing going on...

honestly. who the fuck would you rather have as a neighbour? forget who's doing what, or how you feel about what. who the fuck would you rather live with? who would you rather have living right beside you?

i tell you what, i'd have israel as a neighbouring country over any other country there in that region. for the sake of myself and other people around me. you know at least with israel you can negotiate peace. there's no negotiation with the other side. they're just gonna keep trying to kill you and never give up until you kill them. that's not the kind of game i wanna get myself into.

Ulic Qel-Droma

07-28-2014, 11:20 PM

u can also flip the roles around.

just replace israel with A and hamas with B.

now imagine the scenario where A has B surrounded. the situation is exactly the same. but A is hamas, and B is now israel.

which side would you be on?

it's easy to see people are just siding with the "side" that's taking more casualties.

what do you propose? make the war more even? let's give hamas all the skills and technology the Israelis have... isn't that a scary thought? you think the situation would be any better?

if we reversed the technologies alone, nothing else. You think everyone that supports palestine now... would have supported israel instead? cuz the deathtolls would be reversed.

as u can see this isn't about picking sides based on what they're doing. this is picking sides for the sake of harm reduction.

there simply is just less harm being done if things are the way they are right now.

StylinRed

07-28-2014, 11:59 PM

Israels neighbours can easily flatten Israel the only problem is that Israel has Nukes and they'll surely be getting a butt load of nukes launched at them if they did launch their missiles at Israel (it almost happened before)

There are jews living in peace in those so called countries that you imagine would flatten Israel if given the opportunity with equal opportunity in advancement and success in society unlike in israel

None of those neighbouring countries have created ghettos for a different religion or ethnicity that they dislike and subjugate them to continued psychological and physical torture nor have they slowly encroached on those ghettos and pollute their water sources with sewage or repress their economy... like Israel does

When those victims within the ghetto try to rise up in any way they know how its viewed as terrorism? what kind of crazy twilight zone are people living in when they believe that to be true?

A playground was shelled this past day with 10 children murdered and 46 injured
I guess we're meant to believe that hamas is hiding missiles in an open playground now

The death toll is over 1,115 Gazans now and 51 IDF soldiers and 2 Israelis

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-10-palestinians-killed-and-46-injured-in-airstrike-on-hospital-and-park-9633796.html

Ulic Qel-Droma

07-29-2014, 12:25 AM

war is war. casualties of war are just that. there's no way around that.

what do you think we north americans do when we go to war? what do you think happened in afghantistan and iraq? and all those other conflicts?

flip the scenario around and the israelis would be the ones suffering all these casualties. what's the diff? one side will always suffer those casualties... that's just war.

don't focus on which side is causing those casualties... cuz in every possible power/scenario switcharoo... one side will ALWAYS be suffering those losses.

the question is, which side would be a safer ally?

like i said. if hammas had all the power of israel. you'd be posting shit about how the israelis lost 10 children and 46 injured.

those points are... not points. war is war. you have to look at whos fighting, and what they would do if they won, or if they were given absolute power over the situation.

and like i said before in this thread... the current situation is the BEST situation possible. The death toll is over 1,115 Gazans now and 51 IDF soldiers and 2 Israelis....

would u rather it be 1,115 israeli's, and 51 hamas fighters and 2 hamas civilians?

there is no other alternative unless you want israelis to be dying just as fast as the people in gaza. is it any better that one side is suffering more losses? either side. if u had to pick. which side would u pick? why not just make both sides lose 1000+ people? would it be a more fair and happier scenario? lol... see it makes no difference!!!

but would u want to take nukes away from israelis and give it to their opponents?

FUCK NO.

StylinRed

07-29-2014, 03:16 AM

Ulic Qel-Droma

07-29-2014, 09:55 AM

You're assuming the other side would act the same way, a hypothetical with no merit... we've seen what it was like when the power was reversed, before the state of Israel was created, and everyone was living in peace after the prospect of statehood was conceivable was when we saw israeli terror groups created to attack the Brits and drive out Christians and Muslims....
So your hypothetical is inconceivable

You note that this is what war is but so what? That doesn't make it right and as people we should be arguing for an end rather than taking sides and hoping they increase their kill ratio... you're so bizarre

(I know you'll likely say people are warring by nature but I disagree)

ummm before the state of israel there was peace?

dude... you're looking at just a tiny slice of a slice of the picture... how about we look at that area... for the past 2500 years?

i think your "living in peace" is overshadowed by all the war there. there has always been more war than peace there.

I was not saying it would be better to reverse the roles. I'm saying if the roles were reversed, you'd just be rooting for the side that was taking more casualties.

i was trying to make a point that it doesn't matter. you picking sides is completely biased and ... it makes no difference.

no matter how many times you play back time. no matter how many times you change anything. one side in that area will always be getting its ass beat hard.

you either pick A or B. one of those sides will suffer massive casualties. There is NO DOUBT about it.

throughout all of history (for simplicity sake we'll only go back 2000 years)... name a period there where peace dominated for more than 1 life time. LOL never.

there IS no END. thats what i am saying. your concept of END is delusional.
what are they all gonna do? put their weapons down, pump some hardwell and drop some MDMA together?

like i said before, this is THE best scenario for everyone. it LITERALLY is the best. not theoretical best (my hardwell scenario is a pretty good theoretical best). but a realistic best. encompassing both sides, and acknowledging what both sides encompass and all their values and needs and wants and desires....

this is the best situation for both sides. they both get what they want. any other way, and one side will be taken out completely.

if there was a better way, a better scenario that both parties could agree on, THEY WOULD ALREADY BE DOING IT!!! as soon as a better plan/idea emerges that satisfies both parties... they would both immediately adapt this new better scenario... but there just ISNT one that satisfies both sides...

they both want that land. at almost any cost. so... this is what they're doing. fighting for it. and israel is winning. it's as simple as that.

they dont care about lives as much as the land. they don't care about lives as much as their culture. they ONLY CARE ABOUT control of that land.

so understand that. side A, and side B, both want that land for their own. side A and B will never merge and never share it. the best option, and a win win for both sides, is the current result: war with each other.

they both get a shot at what they want. and the risk they take to attain that goal is annihilation.

it's very simple.

BOTH SIDES...don't care about lives. they care about their goal. attaining control of that area. the cost of that goal is lives. and they're willing to expend lives to do it.

you tell me what you're gonna do? you (party C) go in between them and tell them they're not allowed to fight for the land? they're not allowed to expend lives? they must talk instead? lol... talk about what? how they're NOT gonna share? how they all want it FOR THEMSELVES? how no matter what as long as they're alive they're gonna try to take it back from the other side?

the only way is to go in with your own superior military and take it all over yourself and dominate it the way you want and FORCE peace.

it's the same reason the americans dropped a nuke on japan. japan wouldnt of given up until that happened. we (westerners) would do it again, but we're not the only one with nukes anymore. so that option isn't too viable.

the BEST scenario is another korean war. a stalemate. a border put up and a endless ceasefire/stalemate. but you just know both sides entire existence will be to plan around taking the land back... waiting for that day where the other side is weak, and they'll launch another attack... they have mini stalemates, ceasefires lol. so really it makes no diff. we all know one day north korea is gonna get crushed or try to do something stupid. why delay it. just let it happen. its INEVITABLE. 30 year ceasefire, 5 hour ceasefire. whatever, same shit. get it over with... maybe they'll come to realisation when they hit rock bottom... or they'll just embrace martyrdom.

and yes, people are warring by nature. let's replace the word warring with hunting and domination of territory. like almost any other animal.
lions spray piss and hunt food in their territory. humans do the same. instead of piss we put up walls and signs, and our hunting involves using technological advanced weapons.

as long as there is the thought of "me" and "i" and "mine", people will always treat each other like shit.

StylinRed

07-29-2014, 10:02 AM

:facepalm: I can't agree with your viewpoint I can't even see it that's how far apart we are

Noir

07-29-2014, 10:56 AM

multicartual

07-29-2014, 11:42 AM

I <3 jewish girls :)

Ulic Qel-Droma

07-29-2014, 11:47 AM

as do i.

natalie portman, gal gadot, scarlett johansson... mmmm

StylinRed

07-29-2014, 12:27 PM

Add to that list Mila Kunis :drool

but what we're really saying is we like eastern european chicks ;)

Back on topic though Israel has intensified attacks which are being said as the heaviest attacks since the start of this mess

and today the power plant, tv/radio station, greek orthodox church, mosques were bombed...

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76611000/jpg/_76611837_76611830.jpg

over 100 dead

CivicBlues

07-29-2014, 12:51 PM

multicartual

07-29-2014, 01:05 PM

Presto

07-29-2014, 01:16 PM

Welcome back, CB.

StylinRed

07-29-2014, 01:19 PM

Hey StylinRed,
Where's the separate thread for the 5,500 Muslims killed by ISIS in Iraq in the last couple months?

Where have you misplaced your outrage for the over 250,000 dead in that clusterfuck known as Syria?

Oh right, they're Muslims killing muslims, that's not as easy as harping on Jews for killing them in self-defence :considered:

i didn't create this thread

i've refrained from creating political threads for quite a long time now

i think the last one i did was about Bahrain and their slaughter of their own citizens with the help of the Saudi military (or maybe i just discussed that in one of the other topics)

i believe i have mentioned isis in some other threads about their insanity and there already was a thread about Syria which has long died away (also not started by me)

you've been here a long while you must know the plight of palestinians has always been a great concern to me hence my activity in this thread, again one which i didn't create.

maybe you should do a search or something before trying to look cute? or maybe instead of attempting personal attacks you should concentrate on the actual issue?

edit: yep i discussed isis in a couple of posts in the no need for a new thread thread, and discussed syria and bahrain in the major syrian thread that died away and the 2 bahrain threads
none of which were started by me as i've said i've long refrained from creating political topics

edit2 i didn't even make a thread about the myanmar genocide of rohingya (buddhists slaughtering muslims)

Also if you'd like to start a thread or revitalize an old one revolving around the topics you've discussed i'd be glad to participate in it

CivicBlues

07-29-2014, 01:42 PM

No worries SR,
You could have had me confused that you're not the OP here, but you are definitely the most active poster on this thread pushing the Palestinian side n'est pas?

I haven't been active here much lately, spending the past 3 years or so traveling and settling back here in Vancouver, so forgive me if I haven't been keeping up with your latest Cause célèbres.

Part of my travels took me to the Arab world (Turkey (not Arab I know), Jordan, Egypt, Israel and the West Bank), where I have to say I received some of the most hospitable encounters I have had throughout the world.

edit: I saw for myself the 10 meter high Separation Wall, and what the Palestinians had to go through to ride a bus into Israel. It is heart tugging, but then you realize if they didn't have these checks, cafes in Tel Aviv would still be exploding on a monthly basis.

However, I can't say the same about my time on the Palestinian side where I was spat on, pushed, had coffee thrown at, given the slanty eyes (I'm Asian) and generally treated with hostility in a lot of places such as East Jerusalem which sees tons of tourists. Granted, they are under "occupation" as you say but I did also encounter a ton of well adjusted Israeli-Arabs who really just wanted to get on with their own lives.

Far be it from me to see an analogous situation in Gaza, where they are without a doubt under siege. And I definitely don't condone the killing of kids from a few bad experiences on my part. But a part of me sees their almost fatalistic approach to life as almost as a contributing factor to the situation they're in now. When they parade their dead through the streets and call for a "Day of Rage" and the destruction of Israel, how is that helping anyone? Least of all themselves. How is it that the oft compared to Apartheid South Africans were able to elect Nelson Mandela, whereas the Gazans elected Hamas? Something to ponder...:suspicious:

Lomac

07-29-2014, 01:48 PM

Shit, Civicblues... you're alive! :lol

StylinRed

07-29-2014, 01:59 PM

The election of Hamas was certainly a surprise for all but I think it speaks to the hopelessness that Gazans must feel after decades of Fatah going nowhere...unfortunately the world didn't give them a chance to change their ways and immediately blacklisted them and the Gazans...the world was surprised by Sinn Fein as well

Who knows what all the violence since 2006 has done to the perceptions Palestinians have of Hamas...will they have bolstered Hamas' support? as they may be seen as the only party fighting back against Israels violence. Or will the Palestinians have lost faith in them? if the elections are held in October we'll see I guess (meant to have happened a few years ago 2010 iirc)

I can't speak for your experiences with Palestinians, that sounds horrible and unlike my own (i've got slanty eyes myself, i'm mixed) but I guess racial prejudices exist everywhere

CivicBlues

07-29-2014, 02:33 PM

Shit, Civicblues... you're alive! :lol

Yeah I pop up every couple years now to see if I left something behind :whistle:

Far be it from me to make any sort of call on this conflict. I was just a tourist. There's people far more educated and involved first hand on the subject. I can't imagine what it's like to have to be humiliated day-in-day-out at a check point by a gun-totting 18 year old Israeli just to go to work, or have to duck into a bomb shelter next to my house when I hear an air raid siren because some Palestinian feels he was slighted.

I did however, get a taste of it and it sort of reinforced my slight leaning towards the Israelis. For all it's faults (of which there are many), they've created a Democracy - one that includes Jews of all ethnicity (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, hell even Ethiopians) and from across the religious spectrum. They've even included in their nation the "enemy" - Arabs which at least on paper are equal citizens. I don't think the average Palestinian is given even the slightest consideration by Hamas, who seem to delight in their use as human shields to further their cause.

It's easy to root for the underdog. But I can't root for an underdog that has religious extremism as a state ideology. Or one that is inherently misogynistic and homophobic. Call the Israeli state racist if you must, but I bet you Dollars to Shekels that if given a choice between living under them or under the PA/Hamas, you'd be donning a kippah in no time. Heck, the Jews were the underdog for the last 70 years or so, which is why the Great Powers - ahem excuse the term - "conspired" to give them the arid wasteland which is now Israel. They, as Israelis like to say, made that desert bloom. Cross the border from Israel proper to the West Bank and there's a stark change from 1st world to 3rd world. It's like crossing the US/Mexico border on foot, which I've also done and DO NOT recommend. You sure as hell wouldn't expect the US Army to tolerate Mexicans digging tunnels and firing rockets into San Diego.

Sorry Palestinians, you poke a bear in the eye with a stick expect to get mauled.

m!chael

07-29-2014, 02:35 PM

StylinRed

07-29-2014, 02:41 PM

I did however, get a taste of it and it sort of reinforced my slight leaning towards the Israelis. For all it's faults (of which there are many), they've created a Democracy - one that includes Jews of all ethnicity (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, hell even Ethiopians) and from across the religious spectrum. They've even included in their nation the "enemy" - Arabs which at least on paper are equal citizens. I don't think the average Palestinian is given even the slightest consideration by Hamas, who seem to delight in their use as human shields to further their cause.

It's easy to root for the underdog. But I can't root for an underdog that has religious extremism as a state ideology. Or one that is inherently misogynistic and homophobic. Call the Israeli state racist if you must, but I bet you Dollars to Shekels that if given a choice between living under them or under the PA/Hamas, you'd be donning a kippah in no time. Heck, the Jews were the underdog for the last 70 years or so, which is why the Great Powers - ahem excuse the term - "conspired" to give them the arid wasteland which is now Israel. They, as Israelis like to say, made that desert bloom. Cross the border from Israel proper to the West Bank and there's a stark change from 1st world to 3rd world. It's like crossing the US/Mexico border on foot, which I've also done and DO NOT recommend. You sure as hell wouldn't expect the US Army to tolerate Mexicans digging tunnels and firing rockets into San Diego.

Sorry Palestinians, you poke a bear in the eye with a stick expect to get mauled.

edited my last post but i guess ill make it a separate post now

Keep in mind the governing Likud party of Israel rejects the notion of a Palestinian State that is up until 2009 when Netanyahu conceded the possibility of a Palestinian state with caveats (which he now says is Impossible) A view which is rejected by right wing members of his party...so it's not as if Hamas is alone in rejecting a two state policy and a hardline approach. Again I'm no fan of Hamas as I said in my first post in here I think they're going about it completely wrong but they're not the only ones to blame.

as for racism, bigotry, etc. in Israel the laws are there to protect against that i'll give that to Israel but that hasn't stopped it whatsoever
Racism in Israel

with regard to the West Bank seeming like a 3rd world country in comparison to Israel... well.. what do you expect? its not as if the West Bank is free to develop and do as they wish and most of the West Bank is overrun with settlements and buffer zones which prevent development

time to go for me for now though so you can rest easy I won't be posting in here for several hours :P

CivicBlues

07-29-2014, 02:57 PM

This is so refreshing to see, someone who actually went to Israel and the territories providing his opinion on the matter. 99% of these armchair activists have no clue what goes on there, they just regurgitate whatever propaganda they happen to read that day.

Also, good catch on the difference between Israeli-Arabs and Palestinians, a lot of people don't notice that and it's a shame. Israeli-Arabs are a great people - Israel wouldn't be the same without them.

Thanks.
Don't get me wrong, I had a great time in Israel and recommend anyone go visit once the current situation dies down. I'm not even the slight bit religious but Jerusalem is probably the most fascinating city you can visit and Tel Aviv is a basically a beautiful Mediterranean European city. Israelis are a little brusque and in your face but once you get over that they're pretty friendly. The West Bank has amazing history and scenery, but the people seem so downtrodden and resigned to their fate that I really hope they sort themselves out soon (not to mention they seem to be raising packs of delinquent kids as a result).

I've been to places even poorer and with oppressive authoritarian governments and even there the people seem happy to be alive and for what they have - including hope for the future. I can't blame Arab culture for it either as I got loads of smiles and welcomes from just a few miles away in Jordan. If the Israelis are the ones to blame for their mindset then they are truly the Big Brother's of our time - which I find hard to believe.

m!chael

07-29-2014, 03:02 PM

edited my last post but i guess ill make it a separate post now

Keep in mind the governing Likud party of Israel rejects the notion of a Palestinian State that is up until 2009 when Netanyahu conceded the possibility of a Palestinian state with caveats (which he now says is Impossible) A view which is rejected by right wing members of his party...so it's not as if Hamas is alone in rejecting a two state policy and a hardline approach. Again I'm no fan of Hamas as I said in my first post in here I think they're going about it completely wrong but they're not the only ones to blame.

as for racism, bigotry, etc. in Israel the laws are there to protect against that i'll give that to Israel but that hasn't stopped it whatsoever
Racism in Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel)

with regard to the West Bank seeming like a 3rd world country in comparison to Israel... well.. what do you expect? its not as if the West Bank is free to develop and do as they wish and most of the West Bank is overrun with settlements and buffer zones which prevent development

time to go for me for now though so you can rest easy I won't be posting in here for several hours :P

Hey man, I'm really happy you pulled up that wikipedia article to show that there is racism in Israel. CivicBlues should have known not to use his real life experience to counter your internet expertise on the matter.

CivicBlues

07-29-2014, 03:08 PM

edited my last post but i guess ill make it a separate post now

Keep in mind the governing Likud party of Israel rejects the notion of a Palestinian State that is up until 2009 when Netanyahu conceded the possibility of a Palestinian state with caveats (which he now says is Impossible) A view which is rejected by right wing members of his party...so it's not as if Hamas is alone in rejecting a two state policy and a hardline approach. Again I'm no fan of Hamas as I said in my first post in here I think they're going about it completely wrong but they're not the only ones to blame.

as for racism, bigotry, etc. in Israel the laws are there to protect against that i'll give that to Israel but that hasn't stopped it whatsoever
Racism in Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel)

with regard to the West Bank seeming like a 3rd world country in comparison to Israel... well.. what do you expect? its not as if the West Bank is free to develop and do as they wish and most of the West Bank is overrun with settlements and buffer zones which prevent development

time to go for me for now though so you can rest easy I won't be posting in here for several hours :P

I think a lot of racist attitudes may come from the old country - a great many Israelis are recent immigrants from Russia and Eastern Europe - countries not known for their racial diversity or tolerance. As they get more settled (and hopefully in more peaceful surrounds) they'll grow into the liberal society we see in Western Europe.

As for the West Bank, you're absolutely right that they've been restricted and cut off by settlements and private roads. But you've got to ask, why is that? Is it perhaps the Israelis can't trust them to even drive on the same roads with the "natives"? I have to say the settlement issue really does exacerbate things and is a huge mea culpa on the Israeli side.

StylinRed

07-29-2014, 03:10 PM

Hey man, I'm really happy you pulled up that wikipedia article to show that there is racism in Israel. CivicBlues should have known not to use his real life experience to counter your internet expertise on the matter.

its not internet expertise where i garnered that expereience though, but as cb admitted he was merely a tourist and only got to see things on the surface

even you have to admit that prejudice/bigotry has been an issue in israel when it comes to ethiopians, sephardi jews, arabs
there have been protests over it within israel in recent years even...

anyhow <3

m!chael

07-29-2014, 03:20 PM

its not internet expertise where i garnered that expereience though, but as cb admitted he was merely a tourist and only got to see things on the surface

even you have to admit that prejudice/bigotry has been an issue in israel when it comes to ethiopians, sephardi jews, arabs
there have been protests over it within israel in recent years even...

anyhow <3

I wasn't aware that you visited Israel, but if you did then that's pretty awesome. I hope that apart from all the racism and suffering you experienced you at least got to hit the beach and have some good Shawarma.

100% off the bat I will admit that there are still racism issues in Israel, but it's minuscule compared to what you're insinuating. Incidents happen, as they do in every other country, but things have gotten and are getting better on the ground. Also I can't help but lol at you bringing up Sephardi Jews being discriminated against. This shit is none existent in mainstream Israeli society, and if anything, sephardi jews were the main culprits of racism towards Russians when they immigrated to Israel en masse in the 90's.

Edit: <3 you too babe

Ulic Qel-Droma

07-29-2014, 03:20 PM

welcome back dude.

I bet you Dollars to Shekels that if given a choice between living under them or under the PA/Hamas, you'd be donning a kippah in no time.

exactly what I have been saying.

CivicBlues

07-29-2014, 03:27 PM

Hey SR,
Have you been to that part of the world? Or have family there? I'm not being facetious, I'm just curious since you seem to have a personal (?) stake in this discussion.

Anyways, with regards to the racism issue - I'm not saying there's no racism there at all. There is definitely some as with any multicultural society. But putting aside the whole Gaza incursion/Occupation hate on you have for them right now would you as a person of mixed heritage rather live in Israel or the West Bank? Or any of the other Arab States? I don't think anyone who values their freedom would choose the latter

Most places in the world are racist and and if there's one thing I discovered on my travels it's that Canada is probably the best place in the world to live as a "minority" - and yes that includes the country of your supposed "origin" as well. It's not perfect but it's the best we got.

Lomac

07-29-2014, 06:46 PM

One side of my family is Jewish, with many of my relatives living in Israel. So is it wrong that I just don't particularly care what the fuck happens over there?

Yeah, I know all about the history of the area and all that jazz, but still...

StylinRed

07-30-2014, 04:43 AM

As for the West Bank, you're absolutely right that they've been restricted and cut off by settlements and private roads. But you've got to ask, why is that? Is it perhaps the Israelis can't trust them to even drive on the same roads with the "natives"? I have to say the settlement issue really does exacerbate things and is a huge mea culpa on the Israeli side.

that's just inane...it would be like someone breaking into your house, seizing it, kicking you out to the curb, and building a moat around your house and blaming you for there being a moat :P

Hey SR,
Have you been to that part of the world? Or have family there? I'm not being facetious, I'm just curious since you seem to have a personal (?) stake in this discussion.

that's a bit too personal but i'll answer it in a pm :D

Anyways, with regards to the racism issue - I'm not saying there's no racism there at all. There is definitely some as with any multicultural society. But putting aside the whole Gaza incursion/Occupation hate on you have for them right now would you as a person of mixed heritage rather live in Israel or the West Bank? Or any of the other Arab States? I don't think anyone who values their freedom would choose the latter

I would have no problem living in Jordan or even Syria (before the current disaster there) I doubt I would have an issue living in a free Gaza or West Bank either but none of us can be certain until that day.

But I don't see how a "free" Israel is justification for their actions? If that "freedom" is built upon an ongoing slaughter and subjugation of innocents then that freedom is a false one.

4444

07-30-2014, 05:19 AM

I think you need to reevaluate the word terrorist because you seem to label someone who want to defend themselves as terrorists.

Terrorism, defined as:

"the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims."

Defense does not fall within this realm and I do not think the actions of hamas is in defense - really, can you defend yourself against israel. This isn't even a war, a war is two people fighting - israel isn't fighting the palestinians, they are fucking them over royally, resulting in thousands of deaths.

Palestine cannot defend itself, so why try, i don't say this from any perspective other than that of someone who wants the killing to stop.

Violence worked hundreds of years ago, but in this day and age you need to have the world view, which is tough when it basically boils down to two groups hating each other for being a different group. But if all Palestinians just stopped everything, gave away all their weapons, went to the UN Security Council and said 'violence is getting us killed, please help this situation' then there might be hope - that or they'd be wiped out entirely, but Israel would have no justification then.

can you honestly say, without doubt, that there is any other end to this conflict? thousands of people are dying, no one is interested in stopping Israel (which is wrong), but as long as Hamas fires at Israel, even though it is 1 puny rocket against a thousand big rockets, Israel will feel justified, and those that support Israel will probably agree. We all know this is stupid as fuck, but as long as Israel can justify their actions, they will, and Fox News will broadcast it with great aplomb (I'm right wing as hell, but hate fox news, they don't represent the right side of the political spectrum, they represent ignorant bible thumping inbred racists who happen to vote tea party / republican - but that's a side comment)

If anyone thinks this is me saying 'Israel is right, the Palestinians started this all' (CiC), then you're an idiot, what i am saying is that this needs to stop. It will not stop whilst Hamas / Palestine is armed with anything bigger than a pellet gun, they need to take the first step to stop this. Factually, Israel won't, and there is not enough world force to push anyone to stop them. Again, let me force my position to say that this is not right, but it's the only end in sight. The UN has been saying that Israel's actions are uncalled for, but nothing is happening, nor will anything happen (I hope i'm proven wrong, but then again, it'll all just start up again in 2 or 3 more years, like it has in the last 2 years and 3 years before that). Repeating the same actions with an expectation of a different result, as we all know, is defined as insanity.

I want peace, i couldn't care less who is right or wrong, i just don't care, i'm not religious, i have no personal interest in the region, but i do not ever want innocent people dying, i do not want any assets used in commerce destroyed in the name of war. I see the above as the quickest and easiest way to get to this point.

however, this will end up with the Palestinians being in their same shitty position. Guess what, we, the world, fucked up when the whole situation started 60+ years ago - the Palestinian people today are still suffering that decision, it's a totally shitty situation to be in (those words aren't strong enough), but let's be realistic here, no one will force Israel to give that land back, it's just not on the cards. We hopefully, as a world, will never make this same mistake again... but what has happened has happened.

If anyone comes back with a 'ya, but they took their land' - well, that's already been established a bazillion times and isn't an issue that will ever be resolved, unfortunately.

What makes me really sad is that we get one life (sorry to say, there aren't 72 virgins on the other side, i hope we are all intelligent enough to realize this), i'd rather try to enjoy my life and be good to my neighbour, no matter who that neighbour is, to be a better world citizen. Though, i think being a non-religious person enables me to say this, the more hard line religious groups can't seem to do this... again, if someone comes back with 'ya, but israel is oppressing the Palestinians' I'm well aware of this, but if we're all better humans, change will happen. Israel is being oppressive, that situation will not change until change is made, I've outlined the quickest way to do that above.

We cannot look at this situation as compared to our situation or whatever, we have to look at where they are now and where they will be in 1 year, 10 years, etc. as it stands, every day gets worse and worse - change needs to begin

finally, for anyone that thinks that i should tell the israelis to stop - why, they won't, no one will make them, they feel justified in their actions. they are wrong, but so are the palestinians that kidnapped and killed those 3 jewish lads, as were the israelis kidnapped that palestinian kid and murdered him - wrong after wrong after wrong does not make a right, and given the palestinians are the only ones taknig any real casualities, they have more of an interest in ending this NOW.

if you see the above post as anything other than someone that loves peace, then i pity you, as you'll end up an absolute pillock in life.

4444

07-30-2014, 05:20 AM

CivicBlues

07-30-2014, 09:40 AM

that's just inane...it would be like someone breaking into your house, seizing it, kicking you out to the curb, and building a moat around your house and blaming you for there being a moat :P

I'll give you that. The situation is messed up, if Israel truly wants a 2-state solution then they need to disband the settlements and withdraw to the pre-67 borders. Whoever would want to live in such a fortress environment is beyond my comprehension anyways.

I would have no problem living in Jordan or even Syria (before the current disaster there) I doubt I would have an issue living in a free Gaza or West Bank either but none of us can be certain until that day.

I'm assuming you're neither a woman or a homosexual, because that would be foolhardy for you to want to live in such countries. I also hope you're not too attached to notions of rule of law and social justice either, because as friendly and hospitable as Jordanians and Syrians may be I highly doubt you be counting on that if you were ever wrongly arrested or accused of something.

But I don't see how a "free" Israel is justification for their actions? If that "freedom" is built upon an ongoing slaughter and subjugation of innocents then that freedom is a false one.

I never said that their Democracy was a justification for what they're doing. I'm merely stating the fact that it's unfair to burden Israel entirely with the conflict which many seem to do. The Palestinians made their own bed and have to lie in it too. There's also a ton of interests coming from other Arab Countries that could do a ton more to help the Palestinian plight but instead seek to prolong the conflict for their own gains.

StylinRed

07-30-2014, 09:52 AM

I never said that their Democracy was a justification for what they're doing. I'm merely stating the fact that it's unfair to burden Israel entirely with the conflict which many seem to do. The Palestinians made their own bed and have to lie in it too. There's also a ton of interests coming from other Arab Countries that could do a ton more to help the Palestinian plight but instead seek to prolong the conflict for their own gains.

I agree, Hamas' tactics are just as abhorrent and leave much to be desired but I do expect Israel to take the brunt of the criticism as they're seen as the established, democratic, recognized government/nation here...they're not a terrorist organization (that only recently is "attempting" to be an actual political party) so they should be held to a higher standard imo.

But I agree absolutely blame is to be placed on both sides.

murd0c

07-30-2014, 12:53 PM

falcon

07-30-2014, 09:02 PM

Israel supplies like %90 of the electricity, so this doesn't really matter all that much. It was likely being used to house Hamas terrorists.

StylinRed

07-30-2014, 09:19 PM

Actually Gaza was only getting 4hrs of electricity use per day due to damage and shortages

Israel sells roughly 60% of Gazas total electricity use, egypt provides 10% and the rest comes from the power plant

50% of gaza city's electricity comes from the plant and 50% from Israel, power was already lacking in Gaza and now its far worse
(based on older info sorry dont have current figures)

also from the guardian
Flames and clouds of black smoke billowed over Gaza's only power plant on after it was destroyed during the most relentless and widespread Israeli bombardment of the current conflict. At least 100 people were killed on Tuesday, according to Gaza health officials.

"The power plant is finished," said its director, Mohammed al-Sharif, signalling a new crisis for Gaza's 1.8 million people, who were already enduring power cuts of more than 20 hours a day.

Amnesty International said the crippling of the power station amounted to "collective punishment of Palestinians". The strike on the plant will worsen already severe problems with Gaza's water supply, sewage treatment and power supplies to medical facilities.

"We need at least one year to repair the power plant, the turbines, the fuel tanks and the control room," said Fathi Sheik Khalil of the Gaza energy authority. "Everything was burned." He said crew members who had been trapped by the fire for several hours were evacuated.

Gaza City officials said damage to the power station could paralyse pumps and urged residents to ration water.
Gaza's only power plant destroyed in Israel's most intense air strike yet | World news | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/29/gaza-power-plant-destroyed-israeli-airstrike-100-palestinians-dead)

Israel didn't even make accusations that weapons were there it was simply acting to punish hence targeting the power station, the tv station, the radio station, the open-air food market, UN refugee building

the statement made after the attacks were simply "Bringing them to a point of breaking is not a target, but if they break we don't feel sorry,"
no mention of weapons etc. as per the usual when targeting a site

Israel Bombards Hamas Symbols, Power Plant in Gaza - WSJ (http://online.wsj.com/articles/israel-pounds-hamas-infrastructure-in-gaza-1406625853)

If you'd like to have a read of a legal discussion over the destruction of the plant you may enjoy this http://opiniojuris.org/2014/07/26/can-israel-cut-water-power-gaza/

.

Hurricane

07-30-2014, 10:45 PM

I would like to know how the 'occupiers' here would feel if the Aboriginal People started putting together military resistance and firing rockets into and blowing up bombs around Vancouver - refusing to stop until we all moved back 'home' away from North America or into the Pacific Ocean.

Would you support military action against the Indian Reserves even if it meant killing women and children in order to stop rocket attacks, kidnappings, and suicide bombers attacking your neighborhood? How about blockades and isolationist practices to prevent the buildup of weapons caches on the Reserves?

Unless you can really imagine what that might be like - you can't answer the question honestly.

I guess the most interesting part for me, is that the Aboriginal people here have a lot more of a justifiable land claim than the Palestinians do to Israel/Palestine.

One key difference? When the European settlers arrived with small-pox infested blankets and stockpiles of weapons and wiped out 98% of the Aboriginals in North America (according to some estimates) they were left with a small group of 200,000 oppressed people by the late 1800's without the potential to form any kind of meaningful opposition.

I don't think there are many Aboriginal People around who wouldn't like to have all their lands and resources back. They were conquered, and no one is ever happy about being conquered. However, land is not owned on earth, it is controlled. I think its fair to say Canada and America will not be giving back their land and the control of it to the Aboriginal peoples anytime soon. I would say the same is true for Israel.

The land in question in the Middle East was controlled by neither the Arabs or the Jews for almost 500 years leading up to WWI. The Jews do have a long history with the region, and were getting killed and expelled by the Romans in Jerusalem long before Islam became a popular religion there.

I am not pro-Israel, I am pro common sense. I wouldn't expect any free country to live with a constant organized threat of terrorism to its people and not take any kind of action. Geographically we are pretty fortunate. Do you think things would not be a little different if North America shared borders with all of the Middle Eastern nations, Pakistan, Indonesia, and a few African countries? There is an ongoing concentrated effort by the powers that be to ensure the 'threats' do not have the capabilities to reach the continent.

Many people in this thread disregard logic, facts, and hard reality in favor of heartstrings, sad images, and propaganda. Its the easy way out.

Anyone on the planet can say 'Hey, they killed a child, they are bad people' it would be virtually impossible to disagree with that statement.

Try rationalizing to someone how the death of a child was somehow necessary or at least unavoidable - much harder to do.

StylinRed

07-30-2014, 10:59 PM

The first nations did fight back and they were slaughtered...we today view that to be horribly wrong and reparations were and are being made, self rule is given, and ongoing amendments are being made/discussed.

Luckily for all of us it isn't hundreds of years ago and we've advanced as a society and can see where our ancestors went wrong...and why many of us can see the atrocities going on in Palestine/Israel and know that its wrong.

But perhaps the First Nations issue is why it's difficult for Americans to fully accept the plight of Palestinians. As they were far more brutal and less conciliatory to First Nations than Canada has been and continue to this day to harbour a great deal more hatred/racism towards the issue.

Even if you were to agree with the stance of Israel you would expect them to act within the parameters of the law no? for instance take this argument about the "warnings" before bombing http://opiniojuris.org/2014/07/30/guest-post-israels-use-law-warnings-gaza/

Noir

07-30-2014, 11:24 PM

The first nations did fight back and they were slaughtered...we today view that to be horribly wrong and reparations were and are being made, self rule is given, and ongoing amendments are being made/discussed.

Luckily for all of us it isn't hundreds of years ago and we've advanced as a society and can see where our ancestors went wrong...and why many of us can see the atrocities going on in Palestine/Israel and know that its wrong.

But perhaps the First Nations issue is why it's difficult for Americans to fully accept the plight of Palestinians. As they were far more brutal and less conciliatory to First Nations than Canada has been and continue to this day to harbour a great deal more hatred/racism towards the issue.

Even if you were to agree with the stance of Israel you would expect them to act within the parameters of the law no? for instance take this argument about the "warnings" before bombing Opinio Juris » Blog Archive Guest Post: Israel?s Use of Law and Warnings in Gaza » Opinio Juris (http://opiniojuris.org/2014/07/30/guest-post-israels-use-law-warnings-gaza/)

Reparations... pfffft!. Your copping out of his parrallel. Fuck the reparations. He's asking what if that's not what they want; what if what they want is the land you currently possess, and you out in the sea; and they're willing to bomb, extort, and terrorize you for it.

StylinRed

07-30-2014, 11:28 PM

Reparations... pfffft!. Your copping out of his parrallel. Fuck the reparations. He's asking what if that's not what they want; what if what they want is the land you currently possess, and you out in the sea; and they're willing to bomb, extort, and terrorize you for it.

there are some first nations groups which still hope to regain all their lands and have become violent over it but what has Canada done? they cordoned off areas and then negotiated, they didn't go in and slaughter civilians and infrastructure to destabilize the extremists

that's not what the palestinians want though they just want their own state and to run it freely and without the settlements

Hamas may want more than that but the governing Likud party of Israel doesn't want 2 states either... the party which is currently bombing Gaza into rubble... hmm where is your recognition of that?

But no one is on the side of Hamas here so...

Ulic Qel-Droma

07-30-2014, 11:46 PM

you assume we are not bound to make the same mistakes as our ancestors. or that we are somehow more civilized or higher in morals and reasoning.

you are wrong. we are still bound by the same bodily and mental constraints as they were. and our intellectual capacity and potential has not changed.

We're literally the same type of people, with access to slightly more technologically advanced tools.

don't make the mistake of assuming we are somehow better than the people of the past because we have better technology. Our technology comes from the compounded passing down of information and technology over the course of countless generations... where as we humans keep passing down the same genetics (some could argue, we have worse genetics now).

If we transported ourselves back in time, and replaced (insert group here), we'd do the exact same thing they did, if the circumstances were exactly the same.

Like I said before, the problem here isn't some logical mathematical problem that can be solved. The problem isn't to do with technology or information. The problem is us.
and to be honest, it might not even be a problem. I think it is actually just a part of humans. We only see a narrow slice of time, and we read about other even narrower slices of time through history books and other teachings. It is like the birth of any nation or any of the "civilized" nations we see around today. They all went through the same phase at one point. The fighting and bloodshed. It literally is how a society grows and matures. It's just a phase building to something bigger.

That being said, only one "entity" can prosper on that piece of land. To get to the next stage of peace and prosperity, there must be unity. Either through assimilation, submission, or destruction of one side. There just IS no other way. Every other solution will just inevitably lead back to square 1. That pattern of humans is most easy to predict, and it's the most time tested... with tons of examples and empirical proof in our history and current real life examples. It's just part of what makes mankind... mankind.

War is ugly and horrible, but if war was not innate to human beings, I think we would have found a way to stop repeating it by now. If we didn't have the burden of birth and death, having to relearn, reteach everything to each individual that comes into this world... and watch them repeat the same god damn mistakes over and over again because of this process... If we were all just immortal and got super old and just "learned" from our mistakes... this shit wouldn't happen.

But we do get old and die. our future generations do grow up into an unknown world, wanting to try and do everything again for the first time. They will inevitably make the same mistakes. Just like you didn't listen to your parents. Our future generations wont listen either. The problem is we can only pass down info. and data. Those are never good enough. People are skeptical. they wanna always do things their way, no matter what, until they learn from pain. learn from their mistakes.

the problem is we can't pass down experiences. therefore humans will always keep repeating the same mistake. Every human is born a fresh blank state into this world. They will go through the same growing and learning process as every other human. Humans make up societies. Societies grow based on those humans. Societies are just be a mere reflection of the freshly born people that make it up... them using the technology us older dead people left behind for them... much like a family heirloom... that's all our technology is to new people, a heirloom that they'll build on and pass down. It does NOT make them smarter or more civilized than us or anything.

I guess that was a ramble. It doesn't solve anything. But it opens the doors to understanding why these things keep happening. And it helps us look in the right direction as to how to "solve" this problem.

If I had to bet my life... I would bet my life that war will be innate to our existence on this planet, for many generations to come. I would hope I was wrong, and that we do achieve world peace some how... but then i'd die. fuck.

StylinRed

07-30-2014, 11:52 PM

Hurricane

07-31-2014, 12:15 AM

there are some first nations groups which still hope to regain all their lands and have become violent over it but what has Canada done? they cordoned off areas and then negotiated, they didn't go in and slaughter civilians and infrastructure to destabilize the extremists

that's not what the palestinians want though they just want their own state and to run it freely and without the settlements

Hamas may want more than that but the governing Likud party of Israel doesn't want 2 states either... the party which is currently bombing Gaza into rubble... hmm where is your recognition of that?

But no one is on the side of Hamas here so...

Lame response.

Canada has never faced the type of organized resistance (and frankly outright unreasonableness) from the Aboriginal population as Israel faces in Palestine.

Essentially what you're saying is that Israel should just cordon off some areas and negotiate - correct? Do you think they have not attempted to do this??? That was about 500 steps ago.

Fortunately, the people we conquered usually set up road blocks to prevent us from building new golf courses for a few weeks - as oppose to smuggling rockets in from Russia through Arctic tunnels and blowing up coffee shops on Robson St.

So again, address the actual parallel I proposed if its not too hard to wrap your brain around.

As for your lack of knowledge about what Hamas wants. Here you go:

The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988 (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp)

The Palestinians have been offered their own state a number of times over recent history. Every time they refused and shed more blood of their enemy.

They can't expect to say now, 'We want what you offered us 70 years ago, just ignore all the shit that's happened in the duration.' They don't have that kind of leverage with Israel.

Its now a propaganda game. The Palestinians think they will eventually be rescued by the international community and the Jews will be expelled from the lands. That is the only way they could ever really hope to 'win.' They are not silly enough to think they might 'accidentally' defeat the Israeli military. And if they shoot rockets into Israel for the next 500 years and kill 5000 people, they will have accomplished nothing.

There is already a ton of antisemitism sprouting up in Europe the past few weeks, and all over the world for that matter. So it's not a completely ridiculous strategy.

Unfortunately, you are a pawn in this big propaganda game if you choose to look at this whole complex mess as 'Israel should stop killing people in Gaza, and give them their freedom, they are monsters!'

StylinRed

07-31-2014, 12:28 AM

Essentially what you're saying is that Israel should just cordon off some areas and negotiate - correct? Do you think they have not attempted to do this??? That was about 500 steps ago. Israel should leave the Palestinians alone and stop controlling/limiting every step of their lives and cease in encroaching on what land they do have...but no that was never 500 steps ago

As for your lack of knowledge about what Hamas wants. Here you go:

The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988 (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp)

There's no lack of knowledge here, again no one is on the side of Hamas here their tactics are abhorrent and they don't seem to care about those who've put their faith in them.
But you also have to recognize and quit ignoring that the governing Likud party doesn't want Palestine to have their own state in either the West Bank or Gaza nor have they ever wanted the Palestinians to be assimilated into Israel as it would conflict with their national identity so what are they seeking? for Palestinians to be completely expelled from Gaza & the West Bank? Likud Charter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Likud#Charter) (covered in this thread already but i'll repeat it for you Netanyahu seemed to recognize a need for a 2 state policy but has recently rejected that notion)

Its now a propaganda game. The Palestinians think they will eventually be rescued by the international community and the Jews will be expelled from the lands. That is the only way they could ever really hope to 'win.' They are not silly enough to think they might 'accidentally' defeat the Israeli military. And if they shoot rockets into Israel for the next 500 years and kill 5000 people, they will have accomplished nothing. The palestinians? no Hamas thinks that though else the West Bank would be doing the same

There is already a ton of antisemitism sprouting up in Europe the past few weeks, and all over the world for that matter. So it's not a completely ridiculous strategy. and Islamaphobia is even worse in Europe

Unfortunately, you are a pawn in this big propaganda game if you choose to look at this whole complex mess as 'Israel should stop killing people in Gaza, and give them their freedom, they are monsters!'

Unfortunately the facts speak for themselves and Israel needs to stop collectively punishing and targeting civilians

How about giving the West Bank statehood and showing Gaza they could have the same if they played ball? but no again the Likud don't want to leave their illegal settlements and they do not want Palestinians to have statehood

Ulic Qel-Droma

07-31-2014, 12:47 AM

As you say societies grow and mature and I believe with that maturity a realization is attained (hindsight) and that maturity has shown us that the actions of our ancestors when it came to First Nations was abhorrent hence the amends and different tactics taken today

That experience can be passed down to the next generation how well it is learned is another matter...isn't that what parenting is? do all parents fail?

yeah but if you (and others) were in their shoes, you would think you'd be able to change it by doing what you felt was right... which would be to take actions into your own hands and do it the only way that makes sense at the time. fight.

just like you shouldn't drink and drive, but everyone does, at least once... at least until the roadblocks scare them or they get caught or they hit someone.

Just like you shouldn't litter. but u still did or perhaps still do.

Just like you shouldn't go to the casino cuz 99% of people lose money there. But casinos still exist cuz everyone still goes at least once.

If you were put in their scenario, in their shoes, you'd do the same thing.

It's easy to tell a drug addict to stop using drugs. or to tell a youngin they shouldn't drink or drive, or shouldn't throw garbage out the window. or whatever.

you go lecture the rebels and leaders of those organizations to learn from our past. to not repeat the same mistakes.

In their heads, they already know all those mistakes and what they entail. But they, like all people, are doing this for the first time in their lives, and they, like everyone set on doing something, are delusional and think they'll have some chance, some hope of winning or attaining some result that our ancestors couldn't achieve. cuz they think they're more special, smarter, they're better than the people of the past.

but we're not.

failed children of failed parents, usually lead a life of misery, never prospering, and will probably die an early death. Fighting and struggling uphill their whole lives.... the successful children will dominate in every field, and push them out of the picture over time.

Failed nations lead the same existence. never prospering, will collapse and fade off the face of the planet after a horrible fight and struggle to find their identity... the successful nations will dominate in every field, and push them out of the picture over time.

the only difference is the scale in how long it takes. many nations and empires have risen and fallen in the past. today is no different.

I don't see the jews ever being in a position that they were during ww2. that is a mistake they will not make again for generations to come. as for their enemies... the jews have prospered in almost every aspect of existence compared to the nations that surround them in a very short time. Maybe it is the surrounding nations that don't learn. Maybe it is they, that should let themselves be assimilated or surrender. or they can continue to fight. cuz you know, they think they can win or something.

like a guy that should obviously fold in a game of poker, but doesnt...we all see those times where the zealous delusional mindset takes over. Hope, stubbornness. Thinking you can prove the world otherwise. Thinking your special, that you deserve more.

There are bigger forces that dominate, the smart ones that do learn from the past... will always let themselves be assimilated or submit. Living a life under another identity, is always better than fighting a never ending fight to support your own cause. Living, is always better than dying. It's never worth fighting and dying for some idealistic value that only exists in your own head.

And if you disagree with that statement for whatever reason, then you'd do the same thing they would do. Fight.

So really... what would you do? rally your fellow citizens of the gaza strip and sit at the borders peacefully and rally for the right to join israel and obey their way of life... or what? sit there in peace as they encroach on your land? you know some motherfucker will snap and fight back and rally other people to follow him. It's just the way it is man. Israel has no reason to back off or submit. They are the ones in power there. Never mind what is "right" or what virtues you're standing up for...

big mother fucker pushes you out of the way and is intent on doing what he's gonna do. You gonna bow and let him walk by, or are you gonna stand there and get pummelled and hope you can win?

see what i'm getting at? either you're a pussy or you fight. you're a pussy, or potential death. either you're a pussy or you can stand up for what you believe and show them whatsup. show them that you're not gonna be pushed around you're not gonna back down.

guess what's happening.

there is an option. there ALWAYS was an option. just fucking surrender. just fucking give up. and obey the dominant forces laws and values. adopt their way. and there will be peace.

but no. everyone will always stand up and fight for what they want. they never wanna be seen bowing down and submitting.. and "admitting" they're wrong. ego. always. gets. in. the. way. period.

it only takes a small group of people that think that way, to make it bad for everyone else. the option is there, peace=giving up. just give up. just fucking give up. Raise the god damn white flag.

Japan did. sure did save them a lot of death. They're basically bitches of the USA now. But hey, they're prospering and they didn't get a 3rd nuke dropped on them... i think it's a very fair trade. Giving up and surrendering was the best thing they did...

in a way we are all failed parents. or destined to be failed parents because of this birth/death cycle. or we can just look at it not as failure, but as part of the perpetual cycle of existence. it is what it is. it exists because that is an integral part of why we continue to exist.

i am sure the great philosophers of 5000 years ago, had the very same debate we are having today. the great generals of the past all had the same strategies and thoughts of the great generals today. politicians, artists, engineers, inventors, you name it... nothing has changed. it's the same vicious cycle, painted in a different color, played at a slightly different pace.

like an old fucker with alzheimers! he keeps doing the same shit over and over and over again cuz he can't fucking remember the experience of his past. even if others tell him. even if he reads about himself. he'll just forget and try to do it again. that's exactly what we are. cant remember anything before our own lives.

ya get my drift?

StylinRed

07-31-2014, 01:56 AM

I get that, i can agree with what you said

But I don't see how we can just standby and let one side slaughter the other, with us knowing better (and honestly Jews as a people should know better given recent history)

you speak of capitulating to Israel even if they may be the big bad bully here well that's essentially the tactic that the West Bank has been taking and what has come of it? the big bad bully is just taking more and more out of them and not letting up; sure they're not slaughtering them by force but they're still doing so through encroachment and control

it sounds like you can understand why Hamas is fighting even though you view it as a failed fight, and it sounds like you can agree that israels tactics are wrong...i can agree with that

but what i cant agree with is us just sitting by and letting them sort it out through violence, we wouldn't be humane if we did (even if you view violence is being human)

anyway i won't be back for a couple weeks so I guess this thread can die down with comments by the circle jerkers over the violence but i imagine this thread and the situation will still be around when i get back :(

hopefully not though

BrRsn

07-31-2014, 10:57 AM

Might be late news, but does anyone feel this was completely unnecessary?
B.C. premier says province can be counted as ?a friend of Israel? | Globalnews.ca (http://globalnews.ca/news/1478346/b-c-premier-says-province-can-be-counted-as-a-friend-of-israel/)

also if anyone wants to watch some firsthand video of the events (i know you guys hate on VICE but no one else is providing footage like this that i can find on youtoobs). Some of the eye-witness interviews I've watched recount people claiming israeli soldiers stormed into their house, rummaged through everything, and proceeded to urinate inside peoples homes/on the Koran -- I know Hamas poses a real threat to israelis but you can't help but think there's a large religious motivation behind this too Kidnappings and Killings Spark Demonstrations in Israel: Rockets and Revenge (Dispatch 1) - YouTube

Ulic Qel-Droma

08-03-2014, 11:42 PM

double post

what i've been saying, but in a musical so that everyone can understand it.

This Land Is Mine on Vimeo

MG1

08-04-2014, 07:45 AM

^http://www.revscene.net/forums/696945-palestine-israel-2.html#post8507050 post #29.

Ulic Qel-Droma

08-04-2014, 09:25 AM

oops. my bad.

m!chael

08-05-2014, 12:08 PM

NDTV exclusive - how Hamas assembles and fires rockets - YouTube

Exclusive: Hamas rocket launch pad revealed near Gaza homes - YouTube

Ronin

08-05-2014, 04:31 PM

BrRsn

08-05-2014, 07:10 PM

The destruction of Gaza in before and after satellite images (http://sploid.gizmodo.com/the-destruction-of-gaza-in-before-and-after-satellite-i-1616438295/)

Bird's eye view of Gaza before and after.

Anyone got pics of the destruction in Israel?

there isn't any, from my understanding

90% of Hamas' rockets get intercepted by the iron dome, the majority of Israelis are living in a 'safe' environment

there's still single Palestinians trying to mount attacks from within Israel but they don't really get far. Here's a clip to the last 'attack' within Israel:

'Terrorist' Driving Bulldozer Kills 1 in Israel Bus Attack (http://mashable.com/2014/08/04/terrorist-bulldozer-israel/)

tiger_handheld

08-05-2014, 09:01 PM

I was talking to some pro-palastenians protestor and they mentioned that Isreal has occupied their land and the borders today are not what was agreed to some int'l law. Anyone know of this? Any images of the int'l borders then and what it is today?

4444

08-08-2014, 01:25 AM

RacingMetro92

08-08-2014, 07:38 AM

bbc reporting that 18 rockets sent from Gaza immediately at the end of the cease fire bc israel didn't do x, y, and z.... israel now fucking gaza over with a rocket bombardment.

now, i don't know what's going on there, none of us do, but it sounds like gaza is the little brother that you're not meant to hit, but he comes up hits you, and then you respond by smacking him and knocking him out.

as i've said before, every time gaza sends a rocket, it gives israel free reign to send thousands of rockets in - this just won't end until someone becomes the bigger man... that won't be israel.

what a clusterfuck, why are humans such fucking retards.

Imagine that your little brother is saying "I will fucking end you if you don't give me what I want" and proceeds to annoy the shit out of you in the analogy you used. Your natural response is to defend yourself from this until he stops or you take the big step and just knock him the fuck out if he pushes one too many buttons. And then your mom gets mad.

I'm pro peace too but the way these two negotiate, they will keep fighting until there's some concessions from both sides and NOT pulling shit like firing rockets minutes after a ceasefire ends.

4444

08-08-2014, 07:55 AM

Imagine that your little brother is saying "I will fucking end you if you don't give me what I want" and proceeds to annoy the shit out of you in the analogy you used. Your natural response is to defend yourself from this until he stops or you take the big step and just knock him the fuck out if he pushes one too many buttons. And then your mom gets mad.

I'm pro peace too but the way these two negotiate, they will keep fighting until there's some concessions from both sides and NOT pulling shit like firing rockets minutes after a ceasefire ends.

it seems like ur contradicting urself. you're almost defending gaza by saying they have to defend themselves, but then say they need to stop it.

i think i've made my point quite clearly, this is a vicious circle of gaza sending 1 rocket, israel saying 'they attacked us' and killing hundreds. i think it's quite easy to see how this ends, with gaza stopping their rockets.

this isn't an issue or right or wrong - i'd rather be wrong and alive than right and dead. as it stands gaza will always end up right and dead (right is a sliding scale)

RacingMetro92

08-08-2014, 09:10 AM

it seems like ur contradicting urself. you're almost defending gaza by saying they have to defend themselves, but then say they need to stop it.

i think i've made my point quite clearly, this is a vicious circle of gaza sending 1 rocket, israel saying 'they attacked us' and killing hundreds. i think it's quite easy to see how this ends, with gaza stopping their rockets.

this isn't an issue or right or wrong - i'd rather be wrong and alive than right and dead. as it stands gaza will always end up right and dead (right is a sliding scale)

That's the rub and why I can't really choose sides. At what point is too many? Every country technically has the right to defend itself, but at what point is it deemed excessive, and where is the line drawn after you've put up with rocket attacks for years knowing that you have the power to wipe them out easily?

I agree with you on that last point though.

Ronin

08-08-2014, 11:07 AM

Is the only thing keeping this from escalating public opinion? Because it seems Israel could squash Gaza like a fly if they really wanted.

wasabisashimi

08-08-2014, 01:14 PM

Nothing to see here people!, let them fight it out as long as they want. It boosts world economy from weapons sales.

Two solutions: 1) make two states if they wont live together as one, or 2) nuke one side til they are extinct because neither sides are smart enough to coexist in this world.

StylinRed

09-02-2014, 12:12 AM

So things seemed to have calmed down here since I got back so I didnt see a need to bump the dead thread.

Since this was last updated there had been some more bombings/killings and attempted ceasefires

A prominent Vancouver doctor, who is a Holocaust survivor got some international fame by issuing a statement against Israels actions Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare | Toronto Star (http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/07/22/beautiful_dream_of_israel_has_become_a_nightmare.h tml)

Soon after we got 100s of Holocaust survivors / their family members issued a joint statement in the NYTimes against Israels actions in Gaza BBC News - Holocaust families criticise Israel over Gaza (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28916761)

Other than that things seemed to have calmed down, granted there is still a humanitarian crisis in Gaza and the tourism industry in Israel has awoken once again

Well today Israel announced that it's annexing around 1,000 Acres of Palestinian farmland in not Gaza but the West Bank! where you know the government had taken up the cause of not acting like Hamas and instead take the peaceful route

Israel slammed for West Bank land expropriation - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/01/world/meast/mideast-israel-west-bank/)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-29008045

How's that for antagonizing?

m!chael

09-02-2014, 07:49 AM

Lapid condemns West Bank land appropriation | The Times of Israel (http://www.timesofisrael.com/lapid-condemns-west-bank-land-expropriation/)

On Sunday, the IDF’s Civil Administration, the military government in the West Bank, announced that per instructions from Jerusalem, “4,000 dunams at (the settlement of) Gvaot is declared as state land,” and said concerned parties had 45 days to appeal.

As I've always said, If people are so passionate about the subject, how about they stop being armchair activists and actually do something about it. This decision will most certainly be appealed, by both Israeli and Palestinian groups. Legal battles are not cheap, so put your money where your mouth is and go donate to those groups. On a side note, the politician I support came out against it. Not all Israelis (and I would argue the majority) support such land grabs.

StylinRed

09-02-2014, 08:39 AM

Lapid condemns West Bank land appropriation | The Times of Israel (http://www.timesofisrael.com/lapid-condemns-west-bank-land-expropriation/)

As I've always said, If people are so passionate about the subject, how about they stop being armchair activists and actually do something about it. This decision will most certainly be appealed, by both Israeli and Palestinian groups. Legal battles are not cheap, so put your money where your mouth is and go donate to those groups. On a side note, the politician I support came out against it. Not all Israelis (and I would argue the majority), do not support such land grabs.

I agree, I probably should have noted that many pro-peace groups including jewish groups within israel and abroad are against this move but that seems to count very little with the government.