[theurgy1]

Hey guys,

I figure I would post up here what I have recently found and won in my fight against ICBC upon paying up the PST on my recently purchased Honda Ruckus.

I recently purchased a Honda Ruckus 49cc scooter from a friend, prior to purchasing it, as what would any good person do, I did a budget on what I wanted to spend for it, including insurance and any of the taxes it takes to transfer over to my name.
I first called ICBC and inquired about what PST tax rate I should be paying when transferring over this scooter and was very assuredly told it was 12% PST.
Not entirely thrilled about having to pay so much in taxes, I began to research on the Ministry Of Finance website and came across the following published documentation:
http://www.sbr.gov.bc.ca/documents_library/bulletins/pst_308.pdf
Where it clearly states:


Definitions
a passenger vehicle is a motor vehicle designed primarily as a means of transport for
individuals, including trucks and vans that are ¾-ton or less. Trucks and vans that are
larger than ¾-ton, camperized vans, motor homes, buses, ambulances, hearses and
motorcycles with engines of 250 cc or less are not passenger vehicles. For more
information on what is a passenger vehicle, please see Bulletin PST 116, Motor Vehicle
Dealers and Leasing Companies.



I then dug deeper into the Bulletin PST 116:

http://www.sbr.gov.bc.ca/documents_library/bulletins/pst_116.pdf


Passenger Vehicles
In this bulletin, a vehicle is a passenger vehicle if the vehicle is:
 a truck or van that is ¾-ton or less,
 a station wagon, or
 a motor vehicle designed primarily as a means of transport for individuals, other than:
• a motor home, bus, ambulance or hearse
• a motorcycle with an engine capacity of 250 cc or less

That last line is especially important here. The tax documentation is laid out such that the base rate of PST is 7%, except for Passenger Vehicles which are 12% and defined in the documentation I linked to.
Therefore from here one would assume that a 49cc scooter like mine (which are actually very popular in this city), would not be considered a Passenger Vehicle and as such would be charged at 7%.

I sent my findings and inquired with the Ministry Of Finance's help email (CTBTaxQuestions@gov.bc.ca) and surprisingly got a response back in 48 hours from the Ministry Of Finance Rulings and Interpretations Team confirming what I had assumed. That my 49cc scooter was in fact not defined as passenger vehicle and should therefore not be charged the 12%.

Here comes the problem, I showed up to an Autoplan broker (BCAA in Richmond to be exact) and started filing my paperwork and the agent immediately started entering it the 12% tax rate.
I explained to him what I had found, and even mentioned the ruling from the Ministry Of Finance that stated that I should be charged the 7% rate.
He brought in his manager, who also immediately assumed that it was 12%, and I correctly him as well, and also quoted the email I had received from my ruling.
Both were completely unaware but helpful and willing to confirm with ICBC if this was in fact the case (I had to say their service was great, so this is not a knock on them).

The agent who at this point was trying to look into their ICBC front page documentation about what the tax rate and the exceptions, really couldn't find any mention about the 249 cc or less motorcycle designation.
He then called ICBC helpline and inquired with them, who then stated that is was 12%, and at this point, the agent started fighting the case for me. Acknowledging my emails and communications.
The ICBC agent and the BCAA agent both asked me to forward the email I had received from the Ministry Of Finance to them.
The ICBC agent at this point brought in his manager who also read this email and had a long pause upon the realization that it's possible that since April 1, 2014 they might possibly have been charging people 12% instead of 7% PST.
The issue here is that the computer system that ICBC uses would not in any way acknowledge or accept a 7% tax rate.
The BCAA agent in fact had to really do a lot of side setup to make it accept the rate.
So this is definitely a systemic issue on ICBC's part.

I want to bring this to light, as I am sure that a lot of people have been paying the full tax rate and could potentially be owed money back from either the government or ICBC.

In the end, I ended up only paying the 7% rate. The agent at BCAA laughed and congratulated me on finding this and "stumping ICBC".

[radioman]

http://x3.cdn03.imgwykop.pl/c3201142/comment_bULUMsuheuYtfl1oEoJirfA3bQFTfAHA.gif

[RRxtar]

:notbad:

I have 2 trucks purchased recently that are over 3/4 ton. Will have to look into this more.


Good find OP :thumbs:




maybe take this to the news?

[noclue]

Take this to the news they love to shit on ICBC.

[illwdt]

Good on yeah, bro. Keep up the good work!

: )

[Soundy]

In light of the other recent story about ICBC overcharging on some coverages, yeah, I'd think the news would eat this up.

Edit: in before the usual anti-ICBC, anti-establishment bullshit - it's a systemic error, it's been found, it will be fixed, and no doubt people will be reimbursed as appropriate. It CAN happen in any bureaucracy, it DOES happen from time to time... get over it.

[RRxtar]

Blame the antiHSTers who forced the change in the Pst system

[Eff-1]

As someone who has bought and sold a few 250cc bikes, this is great to know. Good work and thanks to OP.

[ziggyx]

ICBC will have to do a ton of reimbursements/refunds to a lot of people if this is brought out to the public. Good find OP.

[Zordon]

Very interesting indeed. I've always advised 12% PST based on the bulletins they released when we transitioned back into PST. We went from TDP to PST2 and they've never said anything about exceptions.

I'll see what i can find out tomorrow.


Taxes are collected on behalf of the Consumer Taxation Branch by ICBC and i would assume it would be refunded by CTB (not sure how this would work). Usually you would have to write into CTB with a copy of your APV9T (transfer tax form) and explain your situation.

[theurgy1]

I've sent a message to CBC News Vancouver, anyone have any other news orgs i should send a message out to?

[Soundy]

I've sent a message to CBC News Vancouver, anyone have any other news orgs i should send a message out to?
http://bc.ctvnews.ca/2.1141/steele-on-your-side

[68style]

Dammit,I imported a 250cc motorcycle awhile back and paid 12% on it... now the question is how to claim back that 5%! I mean at the end of the day it's only $60... but still!

[EmperorIS]

Dammit,I imported a 250cc motorcycle awhile back and paid 12% on it... now the question is how to claim back that 5%! I mean at the end of the day it's only $60... but still!

$60 alot man :( a full tank of gas .. or almost a weeks worth of food for me :(

[theurgy1]

Exactly... it's your money. I've sent this to a number of news agencies and have gotten some responses back.
If this story breaks, I can assume that this will force ICBC to go back to into their previous systems and most likely issue reimbursements.
Kind of embarrassing considering their last issue with overcharging their customers.

[Eff-1]

Dammit,I imported a 250cc motorcycle awhile back and paid 12% on it... now the question is how to claim back that 5%! I mean at the end of the day it's only $60... but still!

I'm not sure if this is only valid for transactions after April 1, 2014 or does it apply to transactions earlier than that?

[Sunfighter]

Great job, OP.

[RRxtar]

Dammit,I imported a 250cc motorcycle awhile back and paid 12% on it... now the question is how to claim back that 5%! I mean at the end of the day it's only $60... but still!
Would be about $800 for me for one truck last september

[68style]

I'm not sure if this is only valid for transactions after April 1, 2014 or does it apply to transactions earlier than that?

I think OP might have put the wrong date? Nothing happened in April 2014 that I know of... but the HST went buh-bye in April of 2013 which is probably what he meant to put?

I don't blame the HST for this as someone mentioned above though... this was a little scam left behind from the government to even things out between private sales and dealer sales with a LOT of pressure from the automobile dealers association of BC being applied... huge scam. It's a total scam you have to pay any tax whatsoever on a used vehicle in the first place let alone keeping it at 12% even after HST got scrapped (for better or worse).

[Zordon]

Tax refunds are not done through ICBC.

If you believe you've been taxed incorrectly, please fill out this form and submit it to Consumer Taxation Branch for a refund.

http://www.sbr.gov.bc.ca/documents_library/forms/0355MVFILL.pdf

Besides the definition, I could not find anything that clearly indicates the before mentioned vehicles should be taxed 7%. If someone could please find a clear statement of that with the percentage of tax that should be charged for non-passenger vehicles.

Here's what a found:

Passenger vehicles may be subject to luxury surtax. Non-passenger vehicles are not subject to luxury surtax.

The following are considered non-passenger vehicles:

•golf carts
•snowmobiles and snow vehicles
•all-terrain vehicles and work-utility vehicles
•camperized vans
•motorhomes
•tractors (farm and industrial)
•buses
•ambulances
•hearses
•motorcycles with engine capacity of 250 cc or less
•trailers
•trucks and vans greater than 3/4 ton


Luxury surtax applies to passenger vehicles when the
value for tax exceeds:
$55,000 to $55,999.99 7% plus 1%
$56,000 to $56,999.99 7% plus 2%
$57,000 and over 7% plus 3%

For tax purposes, a passenger vehicle is defined as
a motor vehicle designed primarily as a means of
transport for individuals. For example, trucks and
vans larger than three-quarter ton, camperized vans,
motor homes, buses and motorcycles with engines of
250 cc or less are not passenger vehicles.

Will private vehicles sales be taxed at 7% or 12%? And will it be PST or a separate tax?

The following transactions are currently subject to the 12% tax on designated property (TDP):

vehicles, boats and aircraft purchased at a private sale in B.C.
vehicles purchased at a private sale in another province and then brought or sent into B.C.
vehicles brought or sent into B.C. that were received as a gift (some exemptions apply)
As part of the re-implementation of the PST, effective April 1, 2013, the 12% tax rate on these transactions will continue as PST under the new PST legislation.

Note: the 12% rate will only apply where the sale is not subject to GST. This ensures private sales are subject to a similar tax treatment as sales by GST registered businesses.




OP can you please post your email from CTB?

[meme405]

Nice find OP, good on your for doing your homework. I certainly would have just phoned, and when someone told me the percentage, I would have just assumed they were correct.

$60 alot man :( a full tank of gas .. or almost a weeks worth of food for me :(

LOLWUT?

[theurgy1]

Tax refunds are not done through ICBC.

If you believe you've been taxed incorrectly, please fill out this form and submit it to Consumer Taxation Branch for a refund.

http://www.sbr.gov.bc.ca/documents_library/forms/0355MVFILL.pdf

Besides the definition, I could not find anything that clearly indicates the before mentioned vehicles should be taxed 7%. If someone could please find a clear statement of that with the percentage of tax that should be charged for non-passenger vehicles.

Here's what a found:

OP can you please post your email from CTB?

Here's how it breaks down.
Go to the finance page:
Revenue Division (http://www.fin.gov.bc.ca/rev.htm)

Click on the Provincial Sales Tax link:
Provincial Sales Tax - Consumer Taxes (http://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/topic.page?id=589542DDDB6347F7A7C80C1783F4BA6D)


Provincial sales tax (PST) is a retail sales tax that is payable when a taxable good or service is acquired for personal use or business use, unless a specific exemption applies.
The PST generally applies to:
the purchase or lease of new and used goods in B.C.
goods brought, sent or delivered into B.C. for use in B.C.
the purchase of:
software
services to goods such as vehicle maintenance, furniture assembly, computer repair
accommodation
legal services
telecommunication services, including Internet services and certain digital and electronic media content such as music and movies
gifts of vehicles, boats and aircraft
If your business is required to register to collect PST, you must charge and collect PST at the time the tax is payable, unless a specific exemption applies. You report and pay the PST you collect as well as the PST you may owe on items you use in your business.

Tax Rates
Generally, the rate of PST is 7% on the purchase or lease price of goods and services, except for the following:
Accommodation (PDF) is 8% plus up to 2% municipal and regional district tax
Vehicles (PDF) is 7% - 10% or 12%
.. I cropped out the rest as it doesn't apply.

Now when you click on the link for Vehicles, they then define what a vehicle is, which I've mentioned in my first post.

Here is the email I received from the Ministry Of Finance (I will edit it to remove specific people's names).


From: CTBTaxQuestions FIN:EX
Sent: Aug 13 (5 days ago)
To: me
Thank you for your inquiry.

British Columbia’s provincial sales tax (PST) is now in effect at a general tax rate of seven percent. You can access the legislation and regulations at the following links:

· Provincial Sales Tax Act (PSTA)

· Provincial Sales Tax Exemption and Refund Regulation (PSTERR)

· Provincial Sales Tax Regulation (PSTR)


PST applies to retail sales and leases of tangible personal property (TPP -- goods), software, related services, legal services, telecommunication services, and accommodation, unless a specific exemption applies.


The nature of the exclusions from the definition of “passenger vehicle” is confirmed by the bulleted list that you cite from Bulletin PST 116 - Motor Vehicle Dealers and Leasing Companies.

You indicate that the scooter has an engine of 49cc. The scooter would generally fall into the class of vehicles known as motorcycles. As the scooter has an engine less than 250cc, the scooter does not qualify as a “passenger vehicle” for the purposes of the PSTA. Consequently, PST is due at the rate of 7%.

You may provide this ruling to the ICBC agent at the time that you register the scooter if there is any disagreement on the matter (they should be aware of this, as it is not an unusual matter).

If you have further questions, please contact our phone staff at 1-877-388-4440. Phone staff are available from 8:30am to 4:30pm, Monday to Friday.

To receive updates about the re-implementation of the PST, please visit the following web page and click the button to “Subscribe To Receive Updates” which is located near the top right of the page.

More information on British Columbia’s return to the PST, including information on transitional provisions, registration information and collecting and remitting the PST, can be found in a new series of PST Bulletins and Notices. In addition, please see our Forms Page and Small Business Guide to PST.

This correspondence describes how the Ministry interprets the relevant tax provisions for information purposes only. This response may be impacted by variations in circumstance, subsequent changes to legislation or subsequent court decisions. The Ministry is not responsible for updating this response if there are any subsequent changes to the law. This response is provided as an aid to understanding the legislation and is not intended to replace the legislation.

Rulings and Interpretations Team
Ministry of Finance
Consumer Taxes - Taxes & Rebates (http://www.gov.bc.ca/consumertaxes)

[Zordon]

Based on that email, it did not mention anything about private sale. Their email is correct when saying that tax is 7% based on...

PST applies to retail sales and leases of tangible personal property (TPP -- goods), software, related services, legal services, telecommunication services, and accommodation, unless a specific exemption applies.


7% PST is charged when you purchase through a dealer or a business with a GST/PST number.

You indicate that the scooter has an engine of 49cc. The scooter would generally fall into the class of vehicles known as motorcycles. As the scooter has an engine less than 250cc, the scooter does not qualify as a “passenger vehicle” for the purposes of the PSTA. Consequently, PST is due at the rate of 7%.

^This is also correct if it was from a dealer. If it was something else and over the specific threshold, it would be more than 7% plus luxury tax.

Private sale is still 12%. The person who emailed you based their findings on a retail transaction and not a private sale transaction.

I would email them back and have them clarify.


Bottom line, you got lucky that you got away with 7% on a private sale as there is a tax rate difference for dealer sales vs private sales.

[theurgy1]

When I sent them the email, I clearly indicated that this was a sale from a private individual to another private individual.

Retail doesn't necessarily mean a brick and motor store under the tax designation. It means someone placed an item up for sale and sold it. There is no specification with regards to who sells it, whether it be a licensed retailer or a private individual.

[Great68]

I think OP might have put the wrong date? Nothing happened in April 2014 that I know of... but the HST went buh-bye in April of 2013 which is probably what he meant to put?

I don't blame the HST for this as someone mentioned above though... this was a little scam left behind from the government to even things out between private sales and dealer sales with a LOT of pressure from the automobile dealers association of BC being applied... huge scam. It's a total scam you have to pay any tax whatsoever on a used vehicle in the first place let alone keeping it at 12% even after HST got scrapped (for better or worse).

Agreed.

Paying sales tax on the private sale of a used good, which had already had sales tax paid when it was first sold is just pure double-dipping by the government.

And the new definition of "related individual" is extremely narrow. For example, an Aunt or Uncle now cannot gift a vehicle to a Niece or Nephew. A blood relative is not enough of a "related individual"? What the fuck?

[Zordon]

When I sent them the email, I clearly indicated that this was a sale from a private individual to another private individual.

Retail doesn't necessarily mean a brick and motor store under the tax designation. It means someone placed an item up for sale and sold it. There is no specification with regards to who sells it, whether it be a licensed retailer or a private individual.

Like i said, that email you copied from CTB did not specify if it was retail (GST/PST registrant) or private sale (non-GST/PST registrant). I would suggest you have them clarify that.

There is a difference in taxes for Transferable Designated Property for specific items being sold through a store versus private when it comes down to registering.

I don't disagree that paying 12% on a used car, scooter, or motorcycle sucks. I'm just stating the facts so that people do not get misled.

Before PST2, it used to be called TDP. By merging the two back to PST is confusing and frustrating for most people to comprehend because it was previously 7% back before HST.

[theurgy1]

Like i said, that email you copied from CTB did not specify if it was retail (GST/PST registrant) or private sale (non-GST/PST registrant). I would suggest you have them clarify that.

There is a difference in taxes for Transferable Designated Property for specific items being sold through a store versus private when it comes down to registering.

I don't disagree that paying 12% on a used car, scooter, or motorcycle sucks. I'm just stating the facts so that people do not get mislead.

Before PST2, it used to be called TDP. By merging the two back to PST is confusing and frustrating for most people to comprehend because it was previously 7% back before HST.

These are all great questions and here's what I've been able to find.
I would start here:
http://www.sbr.gov.bc.ca/business/Consumer_Taxes/Designated_Property/designated_property.htm

Tax on Designated Property (Vehicles, Boats and Aircraft)
The Tax on Designated Property (TDP) is a 12% provincial tax that applies to the following circumstances from July 1, 2010 to
March 31, 2013:
vehicles, boats and aircraft purchased at a private sale in B.C., and
vehicles purchased, or acquired as a gift, from a private individual or non GST/HST registrant in another province and then brought or sent into B.C.
The TDP doesn’t apply to:
boats or aircraft acquired from a private individual or non GST/HST registrant in another province and then brought or sent into B.C., or
vehicles, boats or aircraft imported into B.C. from outside Canada.
For information about how tax applies to these circumstances on or after April 1, 2013, read:
PST on Vehicles (Bulletin PST 308) (PDF)

So we then go to PST 308.
It has the definitions required about what a "passenger vehicle" is.
In this document it clearly states the conditions to which it applies, which apply to private sale.
The fact that it defines a passenger vehicle as:
Trucks and vans that are
larger than ¾-ton, camperized vans, motor homes, buses, ambulances, hearses and
motorcycles with engines of 250 cc or less are not passenger vehicles.

Clearly means that the sale of a 49cc scooter in my specific case, even though it is a private sale, is NOT a passenger vehicle. And is therefore not subject to the definitions outlined in this document pertaining to a private sale.

[Zordon]

But no where does it state that private sale for ....Trucks and vans that are
larger than ¾-ton, camperized vans, motor homes, buses, ambulances, hearses and
motorcycles with engines of 250 cc or less are not passenger vehicles. ...are subjected to 7% PST instead of 12%.

[theurgy1]

It doesn't have to.
The base rate for ANY privately sold item is 7% PST.
The exceptions to that base rate are vehicles which are 12%.
From the provided documentation, they define what a vehicle is, in this case my scooter is NOT a vehicle. Therefore it defaults back to the 7% rate.

It's a pretty simple concept to get around.

[Zordon]

I think you're reaching a conclusion based on the definition of passenger vehicle. Here is a direct quote from the PDF you supplied.

Vehicles Purchased at a Private SaleIf you purchase a vehicle at a private sale in BC, you are required to pay PST at the rate of 12%
on the purchase price of the vehicle, unless a specific exemption applies (see the section below,
Exemptions).
Please note: For the purposes of calculating the PST, if the seller accepts goods as a trade-in
as part of the consideration, the value of the trade-in may reduce the purchase price of the
vehicle. For more information on trade-ins, see the section below, Trade-ins.
For information on how to pay the PST due on private sales of vehicles, see the section below,
Paying the PST.
Vehicles Purchased from GST Registrants
If you purchase a vehicle from a GST registrant (e.g. a motor vehicle dealer) in BC, please see
Bulletin PST 116, Motor Vehicle Dealers and Leasing Companies.

No where in that quote did it mention passenger vehicle. There is also no where on that document that lists a scooter as an exemption.


Nonetheless, this is a good mature debate and for everyone's sake, I hope i'm wrong.

[theurgy1]

Passenger Vehicle and Vehicle are the same in this document.
This is why they define it in the beginning.
It is also why they refer over to the Bulletin PST 308 document to be used as a reference on what is a Vehicle in this case.

Why define it otherwise?

[Zordon]

They have to define it other wise because of Luxury Tax. See page 1 of this thread.

[theurgy1]

The purpose of the "exemptions list" is to allow for very specific exceptions, such as "Members of the Diplomatic and Consular Corps" and "Exemptions for First Nations".

It is easier to define what is a vehicle than to attempt to define what is not a vehicle.
They don't have to go ahead and clearly define everything. They just need to state that for the purpose of that document, a Passenger Vehicle or Vehicle is this...
The assumption after that is anything falling out of those parameters are NOT considered vehicle with regards to that document and therefore not subject to the terms outlined.

And yes I agree, this is very good debate.

[theurgy1]

Well it appears the Ministry of Finance was pressured by ICBC to look into my ruling and have sent me this particular e-mail:


Retraction

This message regards the below correspondence between you and the Ministry:

In reviewing that ruling we identified the following statement as incorrect:

Consequently, PST is due at the rate of 7%.

You may provide this ruling to the ICBC agent at the time that you register the scooter if there is any disagreement on the matter (they should be aware of this, as it is not an unusual matter).

This should read:

However, while a scooter is not a “passenger vehicle”, it is a “vehicle” as defined by the Motor Vehicle Act. All private sales of “vehicles” in British Columbia – including the scooter in question – are subject to PST at the rate of 12%.

We have struck through the incorrect part in the ruling below and inserted the correct information. This message retracts and replaces the ruling sent to you on August 15, 2014. We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused.

This correspondence describes how the Ministry interprets the relevant tax provisions for information purposes only. This response may be impacted by variations in circumstance, subsequent changes to legislation or subsequent court decisions. The Ministry is not responsible for updating this response if there are any subsequent changes to the law. This response is provided as an aid to understanding the legislation and is not intended to replace the legislation.

Rulings and Interpretations Team
Ministry of Finance
Consumer Taxes - Taxes & Rebates (http://www.gov.bc.ca/consumertaxes)


It appears I might have jumped the gun here.
I have sent a followup to this email asking what this means in terms of what I've paid and if I'm required to pay a difference charge.
I mean I'm not to heartbroken over it, the difference is negligible in my mind.
However I'm a bit peeved that they've gone ahead and retracted what I thought was a solid ruling.

[Eff-1]

Well good for you anyways in looking into it. For what it's worth, this is one of the better threads I've seen around here in a long time. I especially enjoyed the debate between OP and bklam. I thought both raised really good points and I has no idea how this would fall out.

[SpartanAir]

Good find OP.

But we all know paying taxes again on a used vehicle that someone paid taxes on when bought new is fucking bullshit. If I were to buy another high priced item on craigslist in a private sale, like say a $10,000 piano, am I paying taxes? Of course not. Only because you have to register the car through the government agency to the new owner is it an opportunity for them to charge you more money, aka taxes all over again.

I also find it convenient that, before HST, you only paid 7% PST on used vehicles. Then HST came along, and we're paying 12%. Then the HST went away. As if it's not enough of a scam already, ICBC is like "hey, it was so nice getting all that extra cash on used vehicles, so let's not go back to the way it used to be, and charge both taxes on used vehicles."

Fucking bullshit.

[theurgy1]

Firstly.. the taxes are collected by ICBC on behalf for the BC Ministry of Finance. This is not an ICBC thing (for once), it's actually the car dealership lobby that had pressured the government to bump up the tax from 7% to 12% because they are forced to charge both PST and GST and they deemed it unfair competition.

[Dee-Zvic]

I'm glad you were able to get one up on the government because it really is silly that we continually have to pay tax on an asset where tax has already been paid, every time a vehicle is transferred the new owner has to pay tax... doesn't make sense.

Anyhow, having said this I'm quite sure you got lucky here. A perfect storm with the broker not being informed and you having some sort of support paperwork. Out of interest I decided to read the links you sent and from what I gather it doesn't look like your purchase fell within the guidelines for the need to differentiate passenger or non-passenger vehicles as it would only be for situations when a GST registrant is selling a vehicle. Your specific scenario should've fallen under the "Vehicles (Sold as a Private sale in BC)" which if you look In Bulletin 116 (the link you sent), under the Applicable PST Rate on page 4 it clearly shows 12%. There is no talk about passenger or non-passenger, it's just simply vehicles all encompassing.

Good on you for getting the 7% but I wouldn't want someone else going through this process to learn they'd end up having to pay 12%, so guys do your homework to be sure.

[theurgy1]

You evidently haven't read my latest post.
I got a retraction from the MoF and as such have to settle the difference by submitting a casual remittance to pay the outstanding taxes.

It was a fluke and sadly I lost.

I still think that paying 12% taxes on any used vehicle is a load of crap.

[SpeedStars]

Can't people still sell vehicles for $10 :whistle:

[theurgy1]

Nope, the government is really cracking down on that.
They tax you on either what you sold it for, or what is considered "fair market value" if you sold it for less.
If it's sold for less, then there has to be a justification as to why it was sold for less.

[whitev70r]

Oh man ... am considering buying a used car and just found out that there is no tax advantage if you buy through personal or dealer. This was a quiet thing when we went through the GST PST kerfuffle. 12% on used car is really BS!

[murd0c]

Advantage with going through personal is being able to write you bought the car for less on the bill of sale.

[Dragon-88]

When I bought my Husky, I claimed I only paid $500. They asked why, and I said it needed work. They said okay, no major justification needed.

My bike didn't need any work and then I declared its value at $4K when I insured it. I did get a new paint job but it was like a $300 job.

[smoothie.]

When I bought my Husky, I claimed I only paid $500. They asked why, and I said it needed work. They said okay, no major justification needed.

My bike didn't need any work and then I declared its value at $4K when I insured it. I did get a new paint job but it was like a $300 job.

admitting to fraud on a public forum isnt the smartest thing...

[Tone Loc]

Good find OP.

But we all know paying taxes again on a used vehicle that someone paid taxes on when bought new is fucking bullshit. If I were to buy another high priced item on craigslist in a private sale, like say a $10,000 piano, am I paying taxes? Of course not. Only because you have to register the car through the government agency to the new owner is it an opportunity for them to charge you more money, aka taxes all over again.

I also find it convenient that, before HST, you only paid 7% PST on used vehicles. Then HST came along, and we're paying 12%. Then the HST went away. As if it's not enough of a scam already, ICBC is like "hey, it was so nice getting all that extra cash on used vehicles, so let's not go back to the way it used to be, and charge both taxes on used vehicles."

Fucking bullshit.

Lol @ "unfair competition". These new/used car dealers with all their lobbying bullshit just makes me laugh. Hey, instead of lobbying for laws that ultimately screw the consumer, try fixing your broken industry first. Maybe if the majority of used car salespeople weren't slimeballs, more of us people who actually know about cars wouldn't exclusively go the private route...

[Y2K_o__o]

Agreed.

Paying sales tax on the private sale of a used good, which had already had sales tax paid when it was first sold is just pure double-dipping by the government.

And the new definition of "related individual" is extremely narrow. For example, an Aunt or Uncle now cannot gift a vehicle to a Niece or Nephew. A blood relative is not enough of a "related individual"? What the fuck?

Used car tax will not drop to pre-HST levels - British Columbia - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/used-car-tax-will-not-drop-to-pre-hst-levels-1.1352334)

"B.C. Finance Minister Mike de Jong says the aim was to level the playing field on all used car sales. (CBC)"

Car dealers have calculated their risk for car storage / inventory when buying cars out OR from trade-in program, and sometimes their offers are just low-balling. If car dealers want to stay competitive, fine... lower your price to play the game. Buying from private sales owner has higher risk too, and that's essentially why they are relatively cheaper.

[und3f3at3d]

This is just gonna encourage even more people to claim lower amounts on the selling price. Plus as a seller, how can they investigate and justify what you sold it for? If I needed the cash quick or I just needed to get rid of it, Im pretty sure they cant force you to pay extra tax to cover the amount the govt shouldve collected if it sold it for market value.

[RRxtar]

ICBC can request bank statements if they decide to investigate (which apparently they are doing now). If you claim you sold the car for $1200 but your bank statement shows a cheque deposited for $5000 and the seller has a cheque withdrawl for $5000, you gon have some splainin to do.

[Timpo]

any updates? is ICBC paying back overcharged tax?

[Kalize]

When I bought my Husky, I claimed I only paid $500. They asked why, and I said it needed work. They said okay, no major justification needed.

My bike didn't need any work and then I declared its value at $4K when I insured it. I did get a new paint job but it was like a $300 job.


Lol. Hopefully the government hasn't read what you just typed. They do check everything you declare. Wait for the letter in the mail.

[lowside67]

You evidently haven't read my latest post.
I got a retraction from the MoF and as such have to settle the difference by submitting a casual remittance to pay the outstanding taxes.

It was a fluke and sadly I lost.

I still think that paying 12% taxes on any used vehicle is a load of crap.
any updates? is ICBC paying back overcharged tax?
Maybe you should actually read the whole thread before posting.

[Zordon]

Oh man ... am considering buying a used car and just found out that there is no tax advantage if you buy through personal or dealer. This was a quiet thing when we went through the GST PST kerfuffle. 12% on used car is really BS!

Besides the tax, an advantage of going through private is that you don't have to pay the used car dealer's documentation fee. I was dinged $500 when i bought my Cube.

[whitev70r]

Besides the tax, an advantage of going through private is that you don't have to pay the used car dealer's documentation fee. I was dinged $500 when i bought my Cube.

Isn't that negotiable into the final price? What exactly is documentation fee? Carfax, Lien search, etc.? I've seen it from $399-$500. Or is it to cover the paperwork? At one time, the profit margin covered the salesperson's precious time to do this. Can someone who sells cars school me and convince me why this is worth it going through a dealer.

[Dragon-88]

Lol. Hopefully the government hasn't read what you just typed. They do check everything you declare. Wait for the letter in the mail.

You can't trace cash deals.. :toot:

[und3f3at3d]

You can't trace cash deals.. :toot:

Only if both parties are careful about it, if they see the buyer withdraw 10,000 then the seller deposits 10,000 within a short time frame of the transfer papers then youre gonna hvae a hard time explaining

But of course if you space the withdrawals and deposits apart then it would be much more difficult...