[death_blossom]

it's been a long time coming, but it seems like nowadays the American car manufacturers are building sports cars that not only go fast in a straight line, but can handle as well. they seem to be leading the way in the new car segment with cars that can actually go fast around the track.

"back in the day", we all used to laugh at domestics cuz all they could (mostly) do was go fast in a straight line. but now, it's not the case. with cars like the new Camaro Z28, C7 Z06, Mustang GT350, etc, there isn't much in the Import market that can match it in performance in their respective price ranges.

only car that can match or best the cars above is the Nissan GT-R, but the price of the GT-R is much more than what it was back in 2008. Honda/Acura keeps promising us an NSX, Toyota is hinting at a new Supra with the FT-one concept. but they are a long time away from hitting the dealerships.

in the lower end, Ford really has great offerings as well. They have the Fiesta and Focus ST, which walks all over the new Civic Si and FRS/BRZ. I guess the imports still have some life with the STi, although the EVO will be gone soon. the new Mustang GT has independent rear suspension now, so I bet it'll handle almost as good as an STi, cheaper to boot.

what else am I missing? I just wanted to throw this out there to get a discussion going, and see what else is left in the import market that caters to enthusiasts.

[jjson]

Mazdaspeed 3 is currently unavailable until 2016? Read somewhere it's coming with AWD and around 300hp. So that will likely be the next STi competitor.

Honda needs to bring turbo charging applications over to North America. 2-3 bump in HP for each new MY is not acceptable.

[Timpo]

It's not that American cars couldn't handle well, Ford GT40 smoked Ferrari 4 years in a row. Shelby Dayton did handle decent too.
I'm sure Panoz Esperante GTR would out handle most Lamborghinis and Ferraris.

I think people are making fun of Mustang and Camaro because they were in fact, shit.
Do I prefer it over GTR and other sportscars? No, because American muscle cars can be bought for $20+k with V6 model. Which makes higher model unattractive because it would lack exclusivity and average joe will look at GT500 as a normal Mustang or a Mustang with some accessories.

[pastarocket]

What about the Lexus RC F compared to the Z28? The Camaro wins out over the RC F if you're compare them solely on performance and price:

Z28: $77,700 CAD MSRP, 505 hp V8.

RC F: $80,00 CAD MSRP, 467 hp V8.


However, I would think the RC F is a more reliable car than the Mustang.

[right angle]

Wasn't the GTR 100k in 2008? Isnt it like 105 now.

[Energy]

Great, hopefully the competition forces the imports to catch up in price and performance which is good for all us.

[asian_XL]

YEN is so cheap, price should drop 20-30%, but in real it doesn't

[TheStig]

Wasn't the GTR 100k in 2008? Isnt it like 105 now.

Even lower, it started out with an MSRP in Canada of $81,900 for the 2009s. It was good value for the money back then, especially given the competitors at the time.

[dared3vil0]

Define sports car. Are we talking GTR vs Z06/ZR1, or are we talking 370z/Genesis Coupe vs Camaro/Mustang/etc?

If we're talking the latter, I think the Z is the best non V8 of the bunch out there, however they are way over priced. Iirc a Z's base price is like $32,000 (?) where as a Gen coupe, Camaro etc. can be had for ~24,000. Is the Z worth the extra $8,000? I don't think so. If they were all roughly the same price, Z is the hands down winner.

[death_blossom]

^
yah, that's what I was getting at. for the past couple of years, our beloved Japanese brands are losing territory in the performance car market. the near future is not looking so bright at the moment.

still waiting to see a turbocharged FRS/BRZ myself.

[Timpo]

Define sports car. Are we talking GTR vs Z06/ZR1, or are we talking 370z/Genesis Coupe vs Camaro/Mustang/etc?

If we're talking the latter, I think the Z is the best non V8 of the bunch out there, however they are way over priced. Iirc a Z's base price is like $32,000 (?) where as a Gen coupe, Camaro etc. can be had for ~24,000. Is the Z worth the extra $8,000? I don't think so. If they were all roughly the same price, Z is the hands down winner.Nissan 370Z
$39,998-$47,998

2015 Nissan 370Z® Coupe Sports Car | Nissan Canada (http://www.nissan.ca/en/sportscars/z-coupe?next=header.vehicles.postcard.vlp.image)

[ilvtofu]

It's obvious Ford and GM are doing well with their performance products but I think the Hellcats are worth noting too. They seem like nothing more than drag cars at first but from what I've heard from auto journalists they seem to be pretty fun in the twisties too, especially when you consider the luxury/size/weight of them.

Personally I have little to no brand affinity, in my early teens I lusted after Subarus and every Subaru was an awesome car to me even if it was just a bog standard Forester. I'm a lot more objective now and I tend to judge cars on individual model achievements just because I've learned sticking stubbornly to a brand will likely get you into an undesirable car. If you're a fan of 90's/early 2000's Hondas, and you go buy any 2014 model Honda today you'll be sorely disappointed if you thought you're getting a driver's car in any way/shape/form. Honda has sunken to where it's at simply because of apathy. For so many years they were able to move units based on their former reputation of reliability and decent handling cars, the Honda/Acura brand is shit compared to where they were 10-15 years ago and the former execs know it.

I'm impressed by how Mazda makes desirable and enjoyable to drive cars that are in pedestrian market segments such as the 3, 6, or CX5. I'm also impressed at cars like the new F-150 which has been commended for it's steering and way it drives which is rare when you're talking about full size trucks. To me this simply means the company gives a crap, it's easy for a company to build a halo car and spend money in marketing how that 'DNA' translates into their econoboxes, but only a handful of lower-tier cars are engineered that way. Anyone who's driven a regular Nissan knows the GTR is as related to a Versa as an emu is to a peregrine falcon

[Gucci Mane]

[hchang]

[Gucci Mane]

whats going on with the forum? so many blank posts.. i had something typed out in my last one but nothing showed up.

[SkinnyPupp]

There was a bug for an hour or so, but it has been corrected. Sorry about that

[dared3vil0]

Nissan 370Z
$39,998-$47,998

2015 Nissan 370Z® Coupe Sports Car | Nissan Canada (http://www.nissan.ca/en/sportscars/z-coupe?next=header.vehicles.postcard.vlp.image)

HOLY SHIT that's insane.

[Timpo]

HOLY SHIT that's insane.Why?
They both come with 350hp V6 and performance is very similar, I think Nissan did a good job on pricing. :suspicious:

Porsche 911 Carrera
$ 96,200
https://s1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/WChkhaKIRWz7WJK5YD8Nrw--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Y2g9OTIwO2NyPTE7Y3c9MTUwMDtkeD0wO2 R5PTA7Zmk9dWxjcm9wO2g9NzAwO3E9NzU7dz0xMTQx/http://l.yimg.com/os/publish-images/autos/2014-11-17/17d5e960-6e88-11e4-b737-695d188046e4_2015-Porsche-911-Carrera-GTS89.jpg

Nissan 370Z Nismo
$ 47,998
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zg9y1tUeQT8/U3ewME4wdXI/AAAAAAAAKaU/OltPN64O1sY/s1600/Nissan-FAIRLADY-370Z-Nismo-2015-08.jpg

[richardmozis]

Why?
They both come with 350hp V6

:suspicious:

[Timpo]

:suspicious:

oh shit I mean 6 cyl

[dared3vil0]

Where's Marco911 when you need him...

[supafamous]

2015 Chevy Corvette Z06 Dyno Shows 585 HP At The Wheels (http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1095793_2015-chevy-corvette-z06-dyno-shows-585-hp-at-the-wheels)

This just in - a Z06 with 20 miles on the motor puts out 585hp at the wheels. Whoa nelly.

[frost91]

it's been a long time coming, but it seems like nowadays the American car manufacturers are building sports cars that not only go fast in a straight line, but can handle as well. they seem to be leading the way in the new car segment with cars that can actually go fast around the track.

"back in the day", we all used to laugh at domestics cuz all they could (mostly) do was go fast in a straight line. but now, it's not the case. with cars like the new Camaro Z28, C7 Z06, Mustang GT350, etc, there isn't much in the Import market that can match it in performance in their respective price ranges.

only car that can match or best the cars above is the Nissan GT-R, but the price of the GT-R is much more than what it was back in 2008. Honda/Acura keeps promising us an NSX, Toyota is hinting at a new Supra with the FT-one concept. but they are a long time away from hitting the dealerships.

in the lower end, Ford really has great offerings as well. They have the Fiesta and Focus ST, which walks all over the new Civic Si and FRS/BRZ. I guess the imports still have some life with the STi, although the EVO will be gone soon. the new Mustang GT has independent rear suspension now, so I bet it'll handle almost as good as an STi, cheaper to boot.

what else am I missing? I just wanted to throw this out there to get a discussion going, and see what else is left in the import market that caters to enthusiasts.

holy crap where have you been hiding!!!!

[GotRice?]

american cars can be fast and handle way better than ever before... but it is still not as refine as a import from europe and japan that is in the same class...

[Tone Loc]

Agreed... I've always been an import fanboy, but let's face it.

The Japanese manufacturers are becoming super complacent, they are now relying on brand cachet and perceptions of reliability to sell cars rather than simply making "good" cars. Minus the 370Z, Miata, and FRS/BRZ, the Japanese don't really have any real sports cars in their lineups available in US/Canada. Not to mention that cars that were once somewhat sporty - Honda Civic, I'm looking at you - are really gutless, insulated, and boring. The Civic Si is less boring but I'd rather take an '00 EM1 SiR any day. In fact if you look at road tests comparing the two, the EM1 hold its own against the new Si, and even beating it in certain performance benchmarks.

Contrast this to the 1990s-2000s, when every manufacturer had one or more "performance" car. The Integra, Prelude, Civic Si, Supra, Celica, MR2, Miata, RX7, 240SX, 300ZX, etc. And cars that weren't performance cars were still fun to drive, easy to work on, and super reliable. Compare this to now... don't even get me started on "current" Evos and STIs that are simply bastardized, bloated versions of what they used to be - stripped-down rally cars for the street.

IMO car manufacturers only do well when they have something to prove, in contrast look at how far Hyundai and Kia have come in the past 10 years. They went from selling the $7,000 Hyundai Accent POS to the Genesis/Equus, which is basically a BMW 5/7 series for almost half the price. Ditto for the Americans, they finally realized that their pre-recession cars were all crap, in terms of technology, interior, fit/finish, engine choices, etc. and now they are working overtime to change the public perception of that... they are doing what Honda/Toyota did in the 80s-90s and are giving a relatively high-value car for a low price.

[SkinnyPupp]

american cars can be fast and handle way better than ever before... but it is still not as refine as a import from europe and japan that is in the same class...
Source?

[StylinRed]

well toyota/lexus' plan for the next several years is to become a lot more performance oriented so hopefully thats the same for the other brands

although the other brands are hurting from domestics and korean cars...they may not want to risk pouring money out

[versep]

What about the Lexus RC F compared to the Z28? The Camaro wins out over the RC F if you're compare them solely on performance and price:

Z28: $77,700 CAD MSRP, 505 hp V8.

RC F: $80,00 CAD MSRP, 467 hp V8.


However, I would think the RC F is a more reliable car than the Mustang.

The two you mentioned are different animals targeted at different customers.

http://www.chevrolet.com/content/dam/Chevrolet/northamerica/usa/nscwebsite/en/Home/Vehicles/Cars/2014_Camaro_Z28/Model_Overview/01_images/2014-chevrolet-camaro-z28-track-car-mo-interior-1480x551-01.jpg
http://image.motortrend.com/f/roadtests/coupes/1401_2015_lexus_rc_f_first_look/60284186/2015-lexus-rc-f-interior.jpg

I'm not saying one is better than the other, but depending on what you are looking for in a 80k car, the Lexus probably makes more sense. Whereas the Z28 gets people who can't actually afford an 80k car, excited.

Just my opinion

[trollguy]

BUT THE INTERIOR!

amirite

[nsx042003]

^
yah, that's what I was getting at. for the past couple of years, our beloved Japanese brands are losing territory in the performance car market. the near future is not looking so bright at the moment.

still waiting to see a turbocharged FRS/BRZ myself.

It's like the 1990s all over again. japanese sports cars didn't improve much and price stays high. i hope it doesnt happen though.

[GotRice?]

Source?

@3:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpIpUqwaNcY

not just that but u jump into a american car like a caddy or a lincoln then jump into a import like a Audi, BMW, Merc, Lexus and Infiniti even a Hyundai Equus / KIA K9 the material feels nicer, looks more high end, and the american car just look like a rental...

as for the fifth gen camaro that technically is not a american car, it might be built here but it weren't design here... quote from wikipedia "GM Holden in Australia led the final design, engineering, and development of the Camaro"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Camaro

[JipJopJones]

Citing Top Gear as a source is not exactly reliable information.

Don't get me wrong... It's a great show, very entertaining. I'd hardly call it "informative" though. (Yes it can be at times, but much of what is said should be taken with at least a few grains of salt)

[SkinnyPupp]

LOL @ using Top Gear's opinion on American cars (or any cars really... The show is more about entertainment than informational)

[flagella]

Goodness, yes the domestic cars have improved (about fucking time after they have been so shitty for such a long time), but to say that they have surpassed import performance cars is premature. It will take much longer time to prove that statement, which I'm highly dubious if it'll really ever come true, at least in the foreseeable future.

[multicartual]

Oh man Death Blossom, long time dude!!!

[multicartual]

BUT THE INTERIOR!

amirite


Car dudes will sit on a torn bench seat with a moldy dashboard if they feel a particular connection with a car. Meanwhile, you'll be in a parking lot going through the manual on how to use the 7" LCD in your dashboard to set the time forward for daylight savings; any sort of hooning requires you have to come to a stop and push 3 different buttons in sequence while saying hail mary's.

[death_blossom]

the Honda/Acura brand is shit compared to where they were 10-15 years ago and the former execs know it.

you probably heard the same rumor where some former Honda execs went to the new ones to scold them and tell them how they're ruining the company.

[death_blossom]

holy crap where have you been hiding!!!!

where have YOU been hiding! lol.

[Tone Loc]

you probably heard the same rumor where some former Honda execs went to the new ones to scold them and tell them how they're ruining the company.

Apparently it actually did happen:

http://www.autonews.com/article/20141112/OEM11/141119935/former-honda-executives-chide-ceo-ito-over-quality-recalls

FTA:

Honda achieved industry-leading levels of quality over the past three decades through forming "keiretsu" -- bringing parts makers closer to the core through cross-shareholdings to allow close cooperation in designing components. Toyota and Nissan had similar set-ups.

But, as cars have become less mechanical and more technical -- and quality is seen as a given -- the focus has shifted to who can offer buyers "more car" at an affordable price.

That has prompted automakers like Honda to focus on core technology such as hybrid propulsion and hydrogen fuel-cell cars, while commodity parts such as doors, seats, and even transmission, are now procured more widely rather than from "keiretsu" suppliers, with the risk they may be cheaper rather than better.

Cliffs:

People want a lot of car for a relatively low price.
Somehow a nav system, automatic climate control, leather seats, bluetooth this, power that, is seen as a "necessity" in a sub-20,000 dollar economy car.
Manufacturers struggle to deliver this, and the quality of other parts (parts the average buyer won't ever see, touch, fix, or repair) suffers.

IMO if consumers weren't so damn unrealistic (aka asking for BMW levels of luxury from an Accord) the Japanese wouldn't have this problem. Personally I would rather have a super reliable, fun to drive, well-built car with barely any "features" than a fully loaded car that is a complete shitpile...

[versep]

Apparently it actually did happen:

http://www.autonews.com/article/20141112/OEM11/141119935/former-honda-executives-chide-ceo-ito-over-quality-recalls

FTA:



Cliffs:

People want a lot of car for a relatively low price.
Somehow a nav system, automatic climate control, leather seats, bluetooth this, power that, is seen as a "necessity" in a sub-20,000 dollar economy car.
Manufacturers struggle to deliver this, and the quality of other parts (parts the average buyer won't ever see, touch, fix, or repair) suffers.

IMO if consumers weren't so damn unrealistic (aka asking for BMW levels of luxury from an Accord) the Japanese wouldn't have this problem. Personally I would rather have a super reliable, fun to drive, well-built car with barely any "features" than a fully loaded car that is a complete shitpile...

I think that was a market trend started by the automakers themselves.

I remember seeing entry level automakers boasting about how they can include luxurious features on their cars at a fraction of a price, compared to their German counterparts.

This has made the German throne sitters a little uncomfortable, but in the end, it is the boasting automakers who need to deliver more and more for less and less.

[Liquid_o2]

Meh, I test drove a ton of import and domestic cars when I was looking at getting a new car this summer. Fiesta ST, Focus ST, BRZ, Mustang. Ended up with a Civic Si when comparing price, features, power, fun factor, reliability, etc. Yah a bunch of the cars had faster 0-60 times than the Civic but I don't go to the track. The Mustang was probably the nicest out of the coupes I drove, but I wanted a 4 door. Honda still comes through with a reliable car that has excellent fit and finish, plus that 6 speed gearbox :fuckyea:

Had a 2013 Dodge Charger as a rental in LA a few weeks back. The materials inside felt so cheap, tons of thin plastic. I was hammering my foot on the gas and the 8 speed automatic could never find the right gear, was super hard to accelerate on the highway.

Overall, domestics are making strides, and are in a much better position than they were 7-8 years ago, but there is still something about driving an import that I can't move away from.

[Hondaracer]

A civic SI isn't exactly a Z06..

Grocery getter's are still grocery getter's, I don't think there's much argument that interior wise lower end imports are still far nicer, but it's getting to the point where price point isn't getting you that much more value in imports than domestic.

Hell, a guy I work with just spent 36k on a 2014 Toyota Tacoma. Another guy on our site bought a 2014 dodge 1500 Laramie, loaded with every option brand new for 34

Imo and it's been documented as well, Toyota's quality is not the thing of legends like it used to be, and when your in the same price range, options win imo

[multicartual]

I would rather have a super reliable, fun to drive, well-built car with barely any "features" than a fully loaded car that is a complete shitpile...


Give me a V8, RWD, 4 doors and a stick shift, fuck I barely even need a stereo if the exhaust sounds good!

[GS8]

Give me a V8, RWD, 4 doors and a stick shift, fuck I barely even need a stereo if the exhaust sounds good!

Then you want this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pv7CksbT58

2015s are available with a 6M transmission

Can't get this in Canada though. One hell of a deal.

GM and Chrysler rode their ego laden ass through the 80s and 90s just by waving the US flag. In no time did their shit products bite them back and inevitably leading to Chapter 11s. They could have better tapped into their global operations. By the time cars like the Pontiac G8 and 2nd gen Cadillac CTS came around, it was WAY too late. GM tapped out Holden till their death (no more RWD Commodore).

I'd say it wasn't until the ATS came in that everyone turned around and said 'Whoa, now THIS is a real car'. Yes, GM made some cars with brute power, awesome sound and good dynamics but as far as making a car that appeals to almost everyone, the ATS is really hard to beat.

When the 2010 Buick Regals came out (rebadged Opels), Yanks complained there were too many buttons but back track through time and Yanks also complained the Saturn (Opel) Astra had too many buttons and only ONE cup holder.

I wouldn't say the Domestics have caught up, I'd say the Imports lagged. With prices rising, people just want value for the dollar. If you can get a fully loaded Ford Escape for the price of barely optioned BMW X3, why not?

[extracrunchie]

What happened to domestic cars must produce highly fuel efficient cars? I thought it was a mandatory thing back then.

I mean I don't mind a v8, I just can't afford the gas :fullofwin:

[death_blossom]

^
That's a "fleet thing". A car manufacturer has to reach a certain average MPG across their entire model range. So they can have a lot of fuel efficient models to lower their overall average.

[frost91]

^
That's a "fleet thing". A car manufacturer has to reach a certain average MPG across their entire model range. So they can have a lot of fuel efficient models to lower their overall average.

your number still the same? i'll text you......msg me your daily schedule we'll try and have lunch

[Timpo]

why are American cars domestic cars?

Do people in Mexico call American cars domestic as well?

I'm quite certain that Chinese people don't call Korea cars domestic cars?

[Timpo]

Here are some real domestic cars http://www.canadabodybuilding.com/images/smilies/waveflag.gif

Campagna T-REX
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2013/05/lead22-2013-campagna-t-rex-16s.jpg

HTT Plethore
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8032/7974244762_37065524d6_z.jpg

Bricklin SV-1
http://www.ridelust.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/sv-1.jpg

Manic GT
http://gomotors.net/pics/Manic/manic-gt-05.jpg

Magnum MK5
https://madwhips.s3.amazonaws.com/photo_2472_magnum_mk5_115460_wt.jpg

Felino CB7
http://www.gtspirit.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Felino-CB7-7-640x422.jpg

ZENN EV
http://www.inhabitat.com/wp-content/uploads/zenn_driving_5_4x6.jpg

De Macross GT1
http://www.speedfans.fr/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/789.jpg

[death_blossom]

wow, Timpo is trolling hard with this most recent post. but I will bite.

"domestic" is a term that is used in North America to describe American car makes. many journalists and other also refer to the big 3 as "American" car makers. and to answer your other question, yes, Japanese or Korean can also call their own cars as domestic, but choose not to.

[Timpo]

wow, Timpo is trolling hard with this most recent post. but I will bite.

"domestic" is a term that is used in North America to describe American car makes. many journalists and other also refer to the big 3 as "American" car makers. and to answer your other question, yes, Japanese or Korean can also call their own cars as domestic, but choose not to.

oh fuck that shit, although I don't know for sure, Mexicans don't call big 3 domestic.

GM, Ford and Chrysler are American car manufactures, not Canadian.
People mix American/Canadian together for some reason.

Germans don't call Ferrari and Lamborghini "domestic" vehicles and Italians don't call Peugeot and Renault "domestic" too.

Americans probably don't even call Canadian cars "domestic" either.