[zoomzoom3]

How do I know when a "posted limit" ends?

[nsx042003]

When you see the next one I believe

[mr_chin]

When you see for example "60 KM/H MAXIMUM", means you need to slow down or can speed up to 60 km/h.

[zoomzoom3]

When you see the next one I believe

When you see for example "60 KM/H MAXIMUM", means you need to slow down or can speed up to 60 km/h.

My bad, I should have been more clear in my original post. My question is more geared towards situations where there is no "next sign" (generally rural roads). To word my question more concisely: when do posted limits stop applying and statutory limits take over?

Take Duffy Lake Rd for example. On the southern portion where the native land is, the posted limit is 30. Then it turns in 60. Then for the next hour or so, I didn't notice any posted limits, but I did notice yellow signs recommending that you turn at 70, which would suggest that the statutory highway limit began to apply at some point along the road (statutory limits for highways are 80). As you get closer to Lillooet, you begin to see signs for 60 again. I am almost certain that the statutory limit of 80 applies for the middle portion, but I don't know where the 60 ends and 80 begins to apply.

[123654123]

strong username to ask this question

[zoomzoom3]

strong username to ask this question

It's referring to the type of vehicle I drive (a Mazda), rather than my driving style...

... most of the time :hotbaby:

[CCA-Dave]

Take Duffy Lake Rd for example. On the southern portion where the native land is, the posted limit is 30. Then it turns in 60. Then for the next hour or so, I didn't notice any posted limits, but I did notice yellow signs recommending that you turn at 70, which would suggest that the statutory highway limit began to apply at some point along the road (statutory limits for highways are 80). As you get closer to Lillooet, you begin to see signs for 60 again. I am almost certain that the statutory limit of 80 applies for the middle portion, but I don't know where the 60 ends and 80 begins to apply.

You either missed a sign, or one has been taken down by a snowplow/accident/natural cause. I know for a fact the limit goes up to 80, with a posted sign, and then back down to 60. Too busy to look up exactly what km it is at, but I do have that info somewhere in the office.

-Dave

[sebberry]

I have the same beef with construction zone speed limits.

Often the workers (on one side of the road) will put a small 30km/hr sign right at ground level on the side they're working at, and forget to place one at the end on the other side of the road (presumably because they're not working on that side).

It'd be nice if construction limits applied only for 100m or so. I'm still doing 30k miles down the road until the next 50 sign.

[zulutango]

In New Zealand the end of the speed limit is always indicated by a sign and that makes it easy. Here in BC a few school zones have signs indicating "zone ends"....but then we have the idiotic system where drivers are supposed to be looking for the back of the signs on the opposite side of the road marking the start of the same zone for opposing drivers. If you are in a "municipality" then there are no signs required to tell you when you are going out of it. Speeds out of town are generally 80kmh unless otherwise posted..
Speed limits
146 (1) Subject to this section, a person must not drive or operate a motor vehicle on a highway in a municipality or treaty lands at a greater rate of speed than 50 km/h, and a person must not drive or operate a motor vehicle on a highway outside a municipality at a greater rate of speed than 80 km/h.
If you get a ticket for "speed against a Hwy sign" the specific sign must be described as part of the charge and it must have been visible to you at the time.

[sebberry]

but then we have the idiotic system where drivers are supposed to be looking for the back of the signs on the opposite side of the road marking the start of the same zone for opposing drivers. .

Where does it say in the MVA that the speed limit remains reduced until the back of the other sign?


Schools and playgrounds
147 (1) A person driving a vehicle on a regular school day and on a highway where signs are displayed stating a speed limit of 30 km/h, or on which the numerals "30" are prominently shown, must drive at a rate of speed not exceeding 30 km/h while approaching or passing the school building and school grounds to which the signs relate, between 8 a.m. and 5 p.m., or subject to subsection (1.1), between any extended times that are stated on the signs.


Once you've passed the school grounds, you're free to speed up. You don't have to wait for the back of the next sign.

The same should apply to construction zones. Once you've passed the area where work is taking place, you should be able to speed up.

[Berzerker]

The school zone is the zone between the 2 signs indicating such. Just because you pass the school does not mean the zone ends. You have to watch for the sign on the other side to let you know that the zone is cleared.

Berz out.

[sebberry]

That was my impression as well and a practice I've always followed. Then I read this portion of a judgment:


Before I conclude this judgment, I comment on the equivocal or illogical drafting of section 147(1). It seems to me that its wording could lead to its inapplication in situations to which it is likely the Legislature intended it to apply. One might have thought that having set a 30 km/h zone with a beginning and an end, the section would have clearly set a maximum speed of 30 km/h while driving in any part of the zone. But it does not so state. A vehicle is only required to drive at a speed of 30 km/h in the zone while approaching or passing the school building and school grounds.


taken from here: CanLII - 2010 BCPC 56 (CanLII) (http://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcpc/doc/2010/2010bcpc56/2010bcpc56.html)

The MVA does not state that the speed of the vehicle must not exceed the posted limit in any portion of the zone, it simply states while approaching or passing the grounds.

[zulutango]

Where does it say in the MVA that the speed limit remains reduced until the back of the other sign?



Once you've passed the school grounds, you're free to speed up. You don't have to wait for the back of the next sign.

The same should apply to construction zones. Once you've passed the area where work is taking place, you should be able to speed up.


Nope...the signs indicate the start and finish of '''that portion of the Hwy'..

(2) The minister responsible for the administration of the Transportation Act may, by causing a sign to be erected or placed on a highway limiting the rate of speed of motor vehicles or a category of motor vehicles driven or operated on that portion of the highway, increase or decrease the rate of speed at which a person may drive or operate a motor vehicle or a category of motor vehicle on that portion of the highway.
(3) If the minister responsible for the administration of the Transportation Act has caused a sign to be erected or placed on a highway limiting the rate of speed of motor vehicles or a category of motor vehicles driven or operated on that portion of the highway, a person must not, when the sign is in place on the highway, drive or operate a vehicle on that [/B[B]]portion of the highway at a greater rate of speed than that indicated on the sign for that category of motor vehicle.



If we follow your justification...if you see a speed sign and slow down to that posted speed as you pass that particular sign, you can immediately speed up again. I'd love to see you use that in court :)

[Berzerker]

Exactly. Same as construction zones. Construction zones can be kilometers long. Just because you passed a crew working doesn't mean there might not be another crew down the road. Your to remain at the construction zone speed until you have cleared the zone. If you pass the school that doesn't mean there isn't a field or park that still may be in the zone.

Berz out.

[sebberry]

If we follow your justification...if you see a speed sign and slow down to that posted speed as you pass that particular sign, you can immediately speed up again. I'd love to see you use that in court :)

The difference being that regular speed limits are either set in statute or by a sign clearly indicating the speed limit to the driver. So no, you couldn't argue that you slowed down to pass the sign.

Section 147(1) clearly states that the school zone speed limit ends once the driver passes the grounds. It is not reasonable for a driver to have to interpret a sign that may not be visible and is intended for drivers in a different direction.

If the speed limit for one direction of travel is applicable to the opposite direction, how is it that many highways have different speed limits for opposite directions in some sections?

Or... there's at least one school zone around here that has two "school zone speed limit" signs on one side of the road. If you don't know this coming from the opposite direction and speed up when you approach the first (second for oncoming), then you're speeding up too soon. Hence why the MVA states that the school zone is over once passing the grounds.

Now I see that "portion" isn't defined in the MVA, so I'd have to go by a dictionary definition which is "a part of a whole". Considering that the travel lanes are divided (or portioned), I don't consider the oncoming lanes to be the same "portion" of the highway that I am on.

[sebberry]

Your to remain at the construction zone speed until you have cleared the zone.

Absolutely. But what defines the end of the zone when the construction crew hasn't set up either an "end of construction zone" sign or a sign for the oncoming vehicles? If you're on a roadway with a speed limit set in statute (that is, no posted limits) you could be doing the construction zone speed limit for miles past the end of the zone waiting for a sign.

[zulutango]

That was my impression as well and a practice I've always followed. Then I read this portion of a judgment:



taken from here: CanLII - 2010 BCPC 56 (CanLII) (http://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcpc/doc/2010/2010bcpc56/2010bcpc56.html)

The MVA does not state that the speed of the vehicle must not exceed the posted limit in any portion of the zone, it simply states while approaching or passing the grounds.


The judgement even says you are wrong.,,,if you read it....and I quote..
[19] The other part of Mr. Ashir’s argument is that there was no direct evidence that at 50.4 meters into the zone where Mr. Ashir’s vehicle was clocked by the laser unit at a speed of 46 km/h, the vehicle was either approaching or passing the “school building and school grounds”. However, I find on my appreciation of the evidence that Mr. Ashir was approaching or passing the school building and school grounds.

[20] The school zone between the two signs was 254.3 meters in length. I infer and conclude that where a vehicle has entered the first 50.4 meters of a zone of that length in which there was a school building and school ground, it had to be either approaching or passing them. In addition, Sgt Vermette testified that the sign for southbound traffic, the direction Mr. Ashir was driving, was “just to the north of the playground for the school”. To interpret approaching or passing a school building and school grounds on those facts in any other way would be to misapply the principle of statutory interpretation from Driedger recited above

Finding

[21] To summarize, I find that Mr. Ashir was driving a vehicle in a 30 km/h school zone at a speed greater than 30 km/h on a regular school day, after 8 a.m. and before 5 p.m., while approaching or passing a school building and school grounds to which the school speed signs relate. I find him guilty of speeding contrary to section 147(1) of the Motor Vehicle Act.

[sebberry]

At 50.4 meters, there was good evidence that Mr. Ashir's vehicle had not yet passed the property line and thus had not yet left the zone. Had he passed the school grounds, he'd have passed the school zone. Besides, that case was about pro-d days, not signage placement.

Looking at Google Earth, at 50.4m he's barely into the block the school property spans http://imgur.com/g9WwDAH


So if I'm on a highway with a speed limit of 80km/hr, but the oncoming traffic has a speed limit of 90km/hr, the speed limit signage for the oncoming traffic also applies to me?

[zulutango]

At 50.4 meters, there was good evidence that Mr. Ashir's vehicle had not yet passed the property line and thus had not yet left the zone. Had he passed the school grounds, he'd have passed the school zone. Besides, that case was about pro-d days, not signage placement.

Looking at Google Earth, at 50.4m he's barely into the block the school property spans Imgur (http://imgur.com/g9WwDAH)


So if I'm on a highway with a speed limit of 80km/hr, but the oncoming traffic has a speed limit of 90km/hr, the speed limit signage for the oncoming traffic also applies to me?

must not, when the sign is in place on the highway, drive or operate a vehicle on that portion of the highway at a greater rate of speed than that indicated on the sign



If your sign indicates a maximum of 80 kmh, you must not exceed 80h....if the other drivers are facing a 90 kmh sign, then that applies to them. BTW....are there actually any places like what you are describing?
I guess one could imagine a situation where due to some sort of road design, traffic concern etc it would be advisible to have a lower limit on one side....like maybe a blind entrance/exit on a divided Hwy?

[sebberry]

And with the school zones, because there's no "end of" sign anywhere along the road, the MVA has defined the 30k limit to be in effect while passing the school grounds.

And yes, HWY1 - Northbound from McKenzie to Colwood exit is 80km/hr, but southbound most of that portion is 90km/hr. Both sides have entrances/exits. No reason that I can see for the difference.

[Soundy]

And yes, HWY1 - Northbound from McKenzie to Colwood exit is 80km/hr, but southbound most of that portion is 90km/hr. Both sides have entrances/exits. No reason that I can see for the difference.
I'm sure some Transport Minister at some point decided to do that just to drive you nuts.

[sebberry]

must not, when the sign is in place on the highway, drive or operate a vehicle on that portion of the highway at a greater rate of speed than that indicated on the sign


If your sign indicates a maximum of 80 kmh, you must not exceed 80h....if the other drivers are facing a 90 kmh sign, then that applies to them. ?

So are you conceding that two sides of the same highway are in fact separate portions of the highway?

[zulutango]

I'm sure some Transport Minister at some point decided to do that just to drive you nuts.



Ah...I think it must have been someone looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong before any transport minister had a shot at him. :)

[zulutango]

So are you conceding that two sides of the same highway are in fact separate portions of the highway?


portion
[pawr-shuh n, pohr-]
Spell Syllables
Synonyms Examples Word Origin
noun
1.
a part of any whole, either separated from or integrated with it:




If the portion of A highway requires you to not exceed 80k then you shall not. If the portion being driven on by other users requires them to not exceed 90, then they shall not. HIGHWAY...is defined as many different things under the MVA...don't have time to cut and paste.


BTW....Sebbery...if we ever meet I know that I will find that you must be my ex-wife's divorce lawyer. He too was willing to make a kamakazi sacrifice for a loosing cause. :)

[sebberry]

Right. So the sign you claim to mark the end of the school zone is in fact for the other road users on the other portion of the road.

You can't reasonably expect that the back of the sign intended for other road users applies to drivers to which it may not even be visible. Again, hence why the MVA states that the driver may resume normal speed once passed the school grounds and not the other sign.

[Soundy]

See sig below...

[zulutango]

Right. So the sign you claim to mark the end of the school zone is in fact for the other road users on the other portion of the road.

You can't reasonably expect that the back of the sign intended for other road users applies to drivers to which it may not even be visible. Again, hence why the MVA states that the driver may resume normal speed once passed the school grounds and not the other sign.


I'm sure if you ever try that on a road test you will not fail due to a "Violation", or when Police are monitoring speeds in the School Zone, they, and the Traffic Court Judge will agree with you. My real world experience differs from your theory.

[sebberry]

Every time I've seen enforcement in school zones, it's targeting vehicles that are adjacent to the grounds or building - they're not gunning the cars that have passed the grounds. How often have you targeted the cars that had passed the grounds? (serious question).

Another serious question - Because speed limits do generally apply to both directions of a road, why do we have "End of xxkm/hr" signs if the back of the sign on the other side of the road is sufficient?

[zulutango]

Easier to stop a speeding car coming towards me than one that is speeding away from me.
Here is a question for you and your theory of...past the building means speed up...most school zones have signs on them, past the buiildings and grounds, usually on the back of the school zone start signs for oncoming traffic not yet at the building or grounds. These signs say "zone ends'.....so drivers are required to keep the 30 k speed until they pass this "traffic control device". This contradicts your "theory" as this says the zone continues until you pass this sign, not just past the buildings or grounds. See my previous post on my opinion on having to look for sign backs.

[sebberry]

Easier to stop a speeding car coming towards me than one that is speeding away from me.


So... you could set up AFTER the school zone monitoring traffic in it? How many of your tickets were issued to drivers passed the school grounds but before the second sign?



Here is a question for you and your theory of...past the building means speed up...most school zones have signs on them, past the buiildings and grounds, usually on the back of the school zone start signs for oncoming traffic not yet at the building or grounds. These signs say "zone ends'.....so drivers are required to keep the 30 k speed until they pass this "traffic control device". This contradicts your "theory" as this says the zone continues until you pass this sign, not just past the buildings or grounds. See my previous post on my opinion on having to look for sign backs.

I have never seen on the back of a school zone sign "Zone ends".

http://i.imgur.com/dbb2RNu.jpg

Let's recap:

- 147-1 states that a driver must not exceed 30km/hr while approaching or passing the school grounds

- 147-1 does not define the end point of a school zone as being the other sign, nor does it make reference to not exceeding the limit "at any point" between the signs

- The case I referenced clearly states:
"One might have thought that having set a 30 km/h zone with a beginning and an end, the section would have clearly set a maximum speed of 30 km/h while driving in any part of the zone. But it does not so state. A vehicle is only required to drive at a speed of 30 km/h in the zone while approaching or passing the school building and school grounds."

- The MoTI's handbook on sign placement states that the general rule is to locate signs on the right hand side of the roadway, except in circumstances where visibility would be problematic or road design makes it advantageous to place them on the left side - even then, the "printed" side of the sign would be visible to the driver.

[wing_woo]

This was something I've always thought was stupid. There's no where defining the end of a school or playground zone.

I have occasionally seen signs indicating a speed zone is over and you can resume your speed, but I think that might have been in the US.

It seems almost like they purposely leave it ambiguous so people who don't know and don't want to chance speeding in the zone will drive at the lower speed a little longer than necessary just cause they don't know when they are allowed to resume 50km/h.

Normally, I will keep the slower speed until I pass the sign on the other side. Luckily school zone signs have a unique shape so I don't really need to turn around and see the sign on the other side. I can just recognize it from the back, but really, I think they should actually put signs indicating the end of the school/playground zone.

[underscore]

As per usual, sebberry has made the thread into something completely different from what the OP's original question was about.

[sebberry]

As per usual, sebberry has made the thread into something completely different from what the OP's original question was about.

How do I know when a "posted limit" ends?

And I've been discussing where a speed zone ends.

[underscore]

You're yakking about school zones. Meanwhile:

My bad, I should have been more clear in my original post. My question is more geared towards situations where there is no "next sign" (generally rural roads). To word my question more concisely: when do posted limits stop applying and statutory limits take over?

[sebberry]

And I'm arguing that there no "next" sign at the end of school zones :)

[zulutango]

So... you could set up AFTER the school zone monitoring traffic in it? How many of your tickets were issued to drivers passed the school grounds but before the second sign?




I have never seen on the back of a school zone sign "Zone ends".

http://i.imgur.com/dbb2RNu.jpg

Let's recap:

- 147-1 states that a driver must not exceed 30km/hr while approaching or passing the school grounds

- 147-1 does not define the end point of a school zone as being the other sign, nor does it make reference to not exceeding the limit "at any point" between the signs

- The case I referenced clearly states:
"One might have thought that having set a 30 km/h zone with a beginning and an end, the section would have clearly set a maximum speed of 30 km/h while driving in any part of the zone. But it does not so state. A vehicle is only required to drive at a speed of 30 km/h in the zone while approaching or passing the school building and school grounds."

- The MoTI's handbook on sign placement states that the general rule is to locate signs on the right hand side of the roadway, except in circumstances where visibility would be problematic or road design makes it advantageous to place them on the left side - even then, the "printed" side of the sign would be visible to the driver.


The back of the sign assembly for the opposite direction of travel terminates the 30 km/h speed zone.
From the Mininstery of Transportation website...quote "

http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/key_initiatives/legislation/mvb-amend.htm

[sebberry]

Perfect, let me know when that's included in the amended MVA :) Until then, the law that applies is what's in the MVA, not the interpretation the web guy has of it...

[Flatsix]

So... you could set up AFTER the school zone monitoring traffic in it? How many of your tickets were issued to drivers passed the school grounds but before the second sign?




I have never seen on the back of a school zone sign "Zone ends".

http://i.imgur.com/dbb2RNu.jpg

Let's recap:

- 147-1 states that a driver must not exceed 30km/hr while approaching or passing the school grounds

- 147-1 does not define the end point of a school zone as being the other sign, nor does it make reference to not exceeding the limit "at any point" between the signs

- The case I referenced clearly states:
"One might have thought that having set a 30 km/h zone with a beginning and an end, the section would have clearly set a maximum speed of 30 km/h while driving in any part of the zone. But it does not so state. A vehicle is only required to drive at a speed of 30 km/h in the zone while approaching or passing the school building and school grounds."

- The MoTI's handbook on sign placement states that the general rule is to locate signs on the right hand side of the roadway, except in circumstances where visibility would be problematic or road design makes it advantageous to place them on the left side - even then, the "printed" side of the sign would be visible to the driver.

I have not been through a school zone that does not have a school zone ends sign. I also live on Vancouver island.

Not to go off topic but are school zones in effect during pro d days, and such. I had an argument that kids needed to be in school for it to be an active school zone.

[sebberry]

I have not been through a school zone that does not have a school zone ends sign. I also live on Vancouver island.

Not to go off topic but are school zones in effect during pro d days, and such. I had an argument that kids needed to be in school for it to be an active school zone.

Could you post a Street View of such an "end" sign?

And yes, school zones are in effect on pro-D days. Check the Canli link above.

[underscore]

Perfect, let me know when that's included in the amended MVA :) Until then, the law that applies is what's in the MVA, not the interpretation the web guy has of it...

I didn't realize the Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure was just a "web guy".

[Flatsix]

Could you post a Street View of such an "end" sign?

And yes, school zones are in effect on pro-D days. Check the Canli link above.


Thanks for the info,

[Flatsix]

Maybe kids take them down? But every school zone I have seen has them

[zulutango]

Thanks for the info,


Damn it man!!! Now he's just going to switch his moanin' to another irrelevent point!!! :)

[SoNaRWaVe]

personally i have never seen an "zone end" sign. i was always taught to look for the back of the sign, which signifies the beginning of the 30km/h zone for oncoming traffic.

[nsx042003]

Richmond doesn't have the School zone ends sign

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/nsx042003/School%20zone_zpszvbufjrh.png

[Flatsix]

Did a little more searching every school zone I could find had a sign.

I like the U.S. Method. School zone in effect when children are in sight. Makes wsy more sense.

Here you have a school zone during school hours hardly any kids, summer time no school zone but kids are going to the school to play >.<

[sebberry]

Thanks for the info,

Thanks. Must be a Nanaimo thing? Never seen one around here.

I still maintain that if the MVA wanted vehicles to remain at 30km/hr until the point at which opposing traffic is met with the limit, it would be worded as such. However, it isn't - it specifically says "while passing" and this wording has been recognized and commented on by the courts.

I also think that with signage standards requiring signs to be placed on the driver's side of the highway (except where disadvantageous to do so), drivers shouldn't be required to obey signage that only appears on the other side of the road, facing other drivers.

[Flatsix]

Thanks. Must be a Nanaimo thing? Never seen one around here.

I still maintain that if the MVA wanted vehicles to remain at 30km/hr until the point at which opposing traffic is met with the limit, it would be worded as such. However, it isn't - it specifically says "while passing" and this wording has been recognized and commented on by the courts.

I also think that with signage standards requiring signs to be placed on the driver's side of the highway (except where disadvantageous to do so), drivers shouldn't be required to obey signage that only appears on the other side of the road, facing other drivers.



Sounds like you should run for transportation minister :p

I think it comes down to common sense and I doubt people would want to fork the bill for two signs on either side. I think it's easy enough to read the sign on the opposite side when you are doing 30. With kids today I go slow near school zones anyway, far too many kids like jumping out into the road or playing in the road to chance it.

[underscore]

School zone speeds are more for dodging stupid parents not paying attention to where they're aiming their car than dodging kids IMO.