[IMASA]

EPA Says Diesel VWs Had Software That Allowed Them to Cheat Emissions Tests (http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/news/a26745/epa-vw-violation/)


The VW Group is coming under scrutiny from the EPA for equipping 482,000 diesel cars from 2009 until 2015 with software that would only have the cars meet emissions regulations when they were being tested.

When the cars were not in a test environment, the EPA says that the device was turned off and the cars are producing 40 times the pollution they were during the tests when being used on the roads.​ The defeat device is not something that was described by VW to the EPA before the cars went on sale, which is another violation. Apparently, the device had two modes, with one mode that would detect when the car was being tested and restrict the emissions, and another that detected road driving and would have the car producing far more emissions than during emissions testing.

The EPA says VW admitted that the device existed when they were threatened with not being allowed to sell 2016 model year diesels in the US.

Here are the cars impacted:

http://roa.h-cdn.co/assets/15/38/1442592687-screen-shot-2015-09-18-at-121045-pm.png

This could result in an $18 billion fine for the automaker. The EPA is ordering all the cars to be recalled.



Been researching VW oil burners for a few weeks before I saw this today. Wow...

[Akinari]

Well someone's getting fired. Or jailed.

[CorneringArtist]

So that makes me one of those coal-burning, environment-killing motherfuckers...:troll:

[Presto]

Good thing Aircare is done. What would VW do? They'd have to remove the cheat, and then the cars will pass, but probably run like SHIT.

[Spoon]

Well someone's getting fired. Or jailed.

If they put custom software on it, it means they know about it and was patching things up to bring it to market.

Similar to how Hyundai was cheating mileage claims, the cost for the fines are probably factored in and they decided that it was cheaper to pay the penalties.

Nobody's going to jail. :rukidding:

[Hehe]

If they put custom software on it, it means they know about it and was patching things up to bring it to market.

Similar to how Hyundai was cheating mileage claims, the cost for the fines are probably factored in and they decided that it was cheaper to pay the penalties.

Nobody's going to jail. :rukidding:

Although I doubt anyone is going to jail, but I think EPA should be more harsh in this case to prevent manufacturers to cheat in the future.

According to US law today, EPA can fine VW around 18 billion USD if they choose to. If I were the head of EPA, I wouldn't want to go easy on this one; slap a fat ticket plus the cost of recalling all vehicles.

[Jmac]

The cost of recalling the vehicles is likely well under $100M considering no physical parts need to be replaced.

EPA should lay the banhammer down.

[supafamous]

The cost of recalling the vehicles is likely well under $100M considering no physical parts need to be replaced.

EPA should lay the banhammer down.

Since the fix would be to run in "emissions compliant" mode the performance hit to these cars would likely result in a class action lawsuit from their owners so the cost of the recall is likely to go into the billions. That or VW has to retrofit a urea injection system onto each car which likely runs into the low thousands per car.

482,000 * $2500 per recall = $1.2B

I hope the EPA lays the hammer on them - GM got a $900M fine for ignition switches and I'd imagine the fine for this will be even higher.

[cunninglinguist]

Jeezus, this is going to be a PR nightmare.

[jasonturbo]

Does anyone else wonder if this will somehow result in a class action lawsuit from the owners who cared about the environment?

[Galactic_Phantom]

Does anyone else wonder if this will somehow result in a class action lawsuit from the owners who cared about the environment?

Doubt it. What legal stance do they have? Contract was made with dealerships, not vw. Wouldn't they have to prove they suffered some sort of loss through this misrepresentation?

[jasonturbo]

Legal stance is based on misrepresentation of course, that misrepresentation could come about from any form of VW advertisements/literature. (Which would make the company liable, not the dealers)

Damages, here are a few;
- Resale values will be impacted
- Additional repairs costs incurred in states where emissions testing is performed and owners had their cars fail which resulted in them buying new catalytic converters etc.
- Owners paying more money for a diesel thinking it would result in lower environmental impact only to find its worse than the gasoline version they could have bought.

Just googled it and...

Hagens Berman Files National Lawsuit Against Volkswagen Group of America for Emissions-Cheating Software, Polluting Cars | Business Wire (http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20150918005867/en/Hagens-Berman-Files-National-Lawsuit-Volkswagen-Group#.Vf7zGUKDTww)

Its already started lol.

[Tone Loc]

Volkswagen Drops 23% After Admitting Diesel Emissions Cheat - Bloomberg Business (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-21/volkswagen-drops-15-after-admitting-u-s-diesel-emissions-cheat)

Share price shortly after Dieselgate:

http://i.imgur.com/3j2ic1G.png

That's not gone well...

[heleu]

I think the price of used TDIs on craigslist just went up...

[jasonturbo]

So let's assume they can "update/flash" the problem away.

How does the new emissions friendly calibration impact MPG and power?

They won't just be able to reduce emissions with calibration and not simultaneously impact other factors - if they could, there would have been no reason to be sneaky. So imagine you're an owner and your golf is 20% less fuel efficient after the emissions friendly calibration, you're pissed, and the company is now up shit creek for misrepresentation based on advertised MPG.

Really curious to see how VW works with the EPA to address the issue while also avoiding having to payout a massive lawsuit to owners.

1/5th of market cap wiped out, the potential fine alone is a maximum of 20B, this doesn't include recall or lawsuit costs.

[heleu]

Agreed. Also, if you owned a TDI, why would you bring your car in for the "fix" knowing that your car would have worse fuel economy and/or power?

Only the biggest tree-hugging greenies are going to do that....

I read that in the US, 1/5 VW sold is TDI. Apparently it's even higher in Canada. This is going to hurt the company image, regardless of the fine they pay.

[CorneringArtist]

Agreed. Also, if you owned a TDI, why would you bring your car in for the "fix" knowing that your car would have worse fuel economy and/or power?

Only the biggest tree-hugging greenies are going to do that....

I read that in the US, 1/5 VW sold is TDI. Apparently it's even higher in Canada. This is going to hurt the company image, regardless of the fine they pay.

Yep, I'm never going to have this fix done if it results in a performance reduction. In fact, I might just get an aftermarket ECU tune done and delete the stifling emissions components with a catback (DPF included), and get even more power and surprisingly enough, improved fuel economy. The setup is cheaper than replacing a grenaded DPF while improving reliability.

[tinico]

When i hear a story like that, I can't help but think someone did not get his hand greased as agreed and laid it all out for VW to bit the dust. To bad... reminds me of stories of sports athletes being doped, then x may years later "scandal! the athlete was doped"

[westopher]

Since the fix would be to run in "emissions compliant" mode the performance hit to these cars would likely result in a class action lawsuit from their owners so the cost of the recall is likely to go into the billions. That or VW has to retrofit a urea injection system onto each car which likely runs into the low thousands per car.

482,000 * $2500 per recall = $1.2B

I hope the EPA lays the hammer on them - GM got a $900M fine for ignition switches and I'd imagine the fine for this will be even higher.
GM also tried to avoid the recall based on the fact that paying out the amount of settlements to families of people killed in related accidents would be cheaper than the recall.

[asahai69]

Have a 2014 jetta tdi and a 2014 passat tdi in the family. will be interesting to see how this pans out

[Jmac]

So let's assume they can "update/flash" the problem away.

How does the new emissions friendly calibration impact MPG and power?

They won't just be able to reduce emissions with calibration and not simultaneously impact other factors - if they could, there would have been no reason to be sneaky. So imagine you're an owner and your golf is 20% less fuel efficient after the emissions friendly calibration, you're pissed, and the company is now up shit creek for misrepresentation based on advertised MPG.

Really curious to see how VW works with the EPA to address the issue while also avoiding having to payout a massive lawsuit to owners.

1/5th of market cap wiped out, the potential fine alone is a maximum of 20B, this doesn't include recall or lawsuit costs.
In all likelihood, the advertised fuel economy (also measured by the EPA) was done in "clean emissions" mode.

[AWDTurboLuvr]

Since the fix would be to run in "emissions compliant" mode the performance hit to these cars would likely result in a class action lawsuit from their owners so the cost of the recall is likely to go into the billions. That or VW has to retrofit a urea injection system onto each car which likely runs into the low thousands per car.

482,000 * $2500 per recall = $1.2B

I hope the EPA lays the hammer on them - GM got a $900M fine for ignition switches and I'd imagine the fine for this will be even higher.

482K vehicles? Try 11 million worldwide. They just set aside ~$7B USD to fix the problem and for PR. As if things couldn't get worse for VW....

[SpartanAir]

Here's the lawyer talking about the issue and the class-action suit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOTRyvgX6bo

And the premium people paid for a TDI engine over a gas engine:

CleanDiesel Price Premiums
Model Base Mid-level Top-line
VW Jetta $2,860 $4,300 $6,315
VW Beetle $4,635 n/a $2,640
VW Golf $2,950 $1,000 $1,000
VW Passat $5,755 $4,750 $6,855
Audi A3 $2,805 $3,095 $2,925


Sounds like if they tune the engine back down all the cars will run like shit, so who the hell would still want them? It will be interesting to see how much each owner could get from the lawsuit...

[akira112]

11 million engines, this is bad.

[supafamous]

http://i.imgur.com/8zZUEuJ.png

Share price down from $170 to $106 in two days. Not sure how much worse it's going to get for these guys.

Re: 11 million engines. I'm not clear if they're saying that all 11 million have just the software cheat or that they have the cheat as well. It doesn't seem like it was necessary with the cars with the urea system.

[ZN6]

http://i.imgur.com/8zZUEuJ.png

Share price down from $170 to $106 in two days. Not sure how much worse it's going to get for these guys.

Re: 11 million engines. I'm not clear if they're saying that all 11 million have just the software cheat or that they have the cheat as well. It doesn't seem like it was necessary with the cars with the urea system.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/46/67/21/466721560abcc8e4f9d1fcfefcb90103.jpg

That is rough for VAG.

[josel_atr]

Anatomy of a cheat: Here?s what Volkswagen did and how they got caught | Financial Post (http://business.financialpost.com/business-insider/anatomy-of-a-cheat-heres-what-volkswagen-did-and-how-they-get-caught)

plus VW CEO just stepped down

[Timpo]

Suzuki sells VW shares
Suzuki to Sell Its 1.5% Stake in Volkswagen - WSJ (http://www.wsj.com/articles/suzuki-to-sell-its-1-5-stake-in-volkswagen-1443264209)

VW ordered to sell Suzuki shares
VW Ordered to Sell $3.8 Billion Suzuki Stake as Tie-Up Ends - Bloomberg Business (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-08-30/vw-ordered-to-sell-back-suzuki-stake-ending-four-year-dispute)

[Timpo]

lol looks like VW will be the next Ford, GM and Chrysler.

[Timpo]

oh shit, does this mean Prius won the battle?

I know VW was trying to fight against Prius by building fuel efficient diesel lineups.

[white rocket]

Apparently the CEO that stepped down is now under criminal investigation. Audi TDI models are affected. Heard it on CBC this morning.

[SumAznGuy]

I was wondering if the Audi TDi's were also under investigation.

[Timpo]

what about Porsche Cayenne diesel?

[white rocket]

what about Porsche Cayenne diesel?

I have one on order for a client. Due on January 16th. He called me today freaking out looking to cancel the order. LOL!

There isn't any info on any affected Porsche vehicle at this point.

[CorneringArtist]

Unless the affected motors move into the V6's, from what I've read the defeat device was installed in 1.6 and 2.0L four cylinder vehicles so far (I also learned that Audi had a 2.0 TDI TT...)

[white rocket]

^^yes, that's what I was thinking as well.

[IMASA]

Consumer Reports did a test
This Is How Much Fuel Economy And Performance Drops When VW Diesels Stop Cheating (http://jalopnik.com/this-is-how-much-fuel-economy-and-performance-drops-whe-1735705959)

Here are the numbers: On the 2011 Jetta TDI, 0-60 times increased from 9.9 to 10.5 seconds but the 2015 Jetta’s acceleration numbers were unaltered.

But the biggest changes occurred in fuel economy. Especially on the highway where the 2015 Jetta’s MPGs dropped from 53 to 50 and the 2011 Sportwagen’s plummeted from 50 to 46 MPG.

[twitchyzero]

Four more carmakers join diesel emissions row | Environment | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/09/mercedes-honda-mazda-mitsubishi-diesel-emissions-row)

[Presto]

It just keeps getting worse for VW. The EPA has reported the cheating software in the 3 liter diesels in Audis and Porsches:


US pollution regulators said late Monday that the Volkswagen emissions-test cheating scandal now includes Porsche, the brand that was run by VW's new CEO.

The Environmental Protection Agency said the cheating software to rig pollution tests was in 3.0 liter diesel engines in Audis and Porsches for model years 2014 to 2016.

"VW has once again failed its obligation to comply with the law that protects clean air for all Americans," Cynthia Giles, assistant administrator at the EPA's enforcement unit, said in a statement.

The agency said these diesel models contain the so-called "defeat device" cheating software: the 2014 VW Touareg; the 2015 Porsche Cayenne; and the 2016 Audi A6 Quattro, A7 Quattro, A8, A8L, and Q5.

Martin Winterkorn said he was "shocked by the events of the past few days."
That the scandal has now hit Porsche calls into question VW's new chief executive, Matthias Müller. Before recently being elevated to VW's top position to clean up the emissions scandal, he was the head of Porsche.
VW, however, disputed the EPA's assertion. The automaker said vehicles with the 3.0 liter diesel V6 engines "had a software function which had not been adequately described in the application process." The company said it is working with US pollution regulators to "clarify" the situation.

"Volkswagen AG wishes to emphasize that no software has been installed in the 3-liter V6 diesel power units to alter emissions characteristics in a forbidden manner," VW said.

The EPA countered:

VW's software on these vehicles includes one or more Auxiliary Emission Control Devices (AECD) that the company failed to disclose, describe and justify in their applications for certificate of conformity for each model. Every manufacturer must apply to EPA for and be approved for a certificate of conformity for each model each year, otherwise it is illegal to introduce the cars into commerce. An AECD designed to circumvent emissions test is a defeat device.
Porsche also said it is innocent. "We are surprised to learn this information. Until this notice, all of our information was that the Porsche Cayenne diesel is fully compliant," Porsche said in a statement.

In September, VW admitted that as many as 11 million diesel vehicles, from years 2009 to 2015, had the cheating software installed. The software would rig emissions tests by forcing the engine to pollute less during testing but allow the car to function much better and pollute more on the road. The US government said that the software allowed the vehicles to spew toxic nitrogen oxide up to nine times beyond EPA standards.

For its part, VW says it's a victim of "rogue" engineers who tinkered with the software unbeknownst to VW executives. The company insists this "was not a corporate decision."

The automaker has set aside as much as $7.4 billion to address the scandal, which includes criminal investigations on both sides of the pond.

The latest revelations affect about 10,000 cars in the US.

[Jmac]

Bullshit on the "rogue" engineers. Maybe corporate didn't explicitly ask for such a device, but we all know what happens when corporate tries to force unattainable goals in unreasonable timelines on employees. "Creative" solutions are the result. And corporate is responsible for the end product.

[extracrunchie]

Can't believe they are blaming it on engineers........

[tonyzoomzoom]

With a big enough payout under the table, I'm sure they can find a scapegoat.

[white rocket]

Anything other than full admission and disclosure from corporate is going to look like a cop out. But "rogue" engineers? Come on! That's just a terrible story.

[Hehe]

Well, it's easier than admitting that they purposely cheated. :fuckthatshit:

[white rocket]

I'm curious if the 2016 Porsche Cayenne will be affected. Article says 2015 Cayenne but then mentioned 2016 as a blanket statement. It hasn't been built yet so I'm wondering if they will be changing what they need to change to comply before the build date.

[IMASA]

Anything other than full admission and disclosure from corporate is going to look like a cop out. But "rogue" engineers? Come on! That's just a terrible story.

One Man Established the Culture That Led to VW's Emissions Scandal (http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a27197/bob-lutz-vw-diesel-fiasco/)

Coming from Lutz, it could be BS, but I wouldn't be surprised if Piech told them engineers, "get it to pass w/o urea or I'll replace yo ass".