[BeefCake4000]

https://youtu.be/28rJqj-7pEY

[Presto]

Why Fentanyl Is So Much More Deadly Than Heroin (http://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalton/2016/04/09/why-fentanyl-is-so-much-more-deadly-than-heroin/)

When prescription opioids started getting too difficult or too expensive to procure, people addicted to them started turning to heroin–a shift that’s created an “epidemic” of heroin use in whole new groups of people. Now, a new opioid is rising in use and overdose: Fentanyl, a synthetic opioid, is 50-100 times more potent than morphine, according to a recent statement on fentanyl by the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), and 25-50 times more potent than heroin. And its presence seems to be rising sharply, which means that, given its potency, deaths from the drug are also rising.

In 2014, 18,000 people died of opioids, and another 8,000 from heroin. It’s not clear how many people are dying from fentanyl overdoses each day now, but the numbers are climbing sharply in pockets across the U.S. and Canada. Fentanyl is often, without the buyer’s knowledge, mixed with heroin or cocaine, because it’s cheaper than either of them, and much stronger. Here’s what we know about why fentanyl is so powerful, in the body and as a new presence in society.

What does fentanyl do in the brain?

There’s no difference in the way in which fentanyl works on the brain from any of the other opioids–it crosses the blood-brain barrier, just like they all do, and binds with the brain’s μ-opioid receptors. From here, it creates analgesia and euphoria.

“What makes it more or less euphoric than other opioids is how quickly it binds” says Lewis Nelson, MD, medical toxicologist and emergency physician at NYU’s School of Medicine. “If I give you morphine intravenously, it circulates in the blood, then it crosses blood-brain barrier and binds the opioid receptors. But it takes a little while. Heroin crosses much more rapidly–so it’s really euphoric. And fentanyl is very rapid, and therefore very euphoric.”

And fentanyl’s potency is much greater than the other opioids’–that is, it takes much, much less of the drug to have the same effect. So it’s also lethal at much lower doses than even heroin. Micrograms of fentanyl are effective, rather than milligrams of the other opioids:

This difference in fentanyl’s potency is critical–it takes very little to have the same effect as other opioids. The reason so many are dying is because the dose is relatively uncontrolled with street fentanyl, and small excesses can lead to overdose. There’s nothing inherently more dangerous about fentanyl than other opioids except the way it is dosed and sold. This should not suggest that the other opioids are not dangerous; they all are.

The physical effects

Aside from producing an intense high quickly, Fentanyl also produces a number of other effects–nausea, vomiting, analgesia, sedation and respiratory depression among them, according to drugabuse.gov. And like other opioids, it causes death via respiratory arrest (one’s breathing slows to a stop), rather than cardiac arrest.

“The only thing killing you is respiratory depression,” says Nelson. “If I took a few times the therapeutic dose of an opioid, my breathing would slow, and I might die in several hours–it’s a slow spiral toward death. If you took 10 times the dose, you’d likely die, and if you took 100 times, you’d die immediately.” Fentanyl is just a more rapid version of the same kind of death, from respiratory depression.

Where it comes from and where it’s going

Fentanyl was once largely extracted from pharmaceuticals–the fentanyl patch, for instance, used to have a reservoir of the drug that was plainly visible, so one could simply suck the liquid out with a syringe. But now the patches have the drug embedded in a mesh, so are more difficult to extract. So fentanyl for street sale often seems to be made in China and imported to the U.S. through Mexico. And because it’s synthesized, rather than plant-derived, it’s worth the effort.

“From the dealer’s perspective, heroin is still hard to make,” says Nelson. “You have to grow it, extract it, convert it, transport into the country. Fentanyl is so much easier. And because it’s 50x more potent than heroin, the volumes are much easier to transport–you can put it in a car instead of truck, or a plane instead of a boat.”

And use of the drug, and of course overdoses, are rising in pockets around the country. Northern California just reported a spike in fentanyl-related deaths–and 48 overdoses and 12 deaths since late March 2016 alone. In Philadelphia, there was a 300% rise in fentanyl deaths from 2013 to 2014. Young people are trying the drug, just like with heroin, but so are middle-aged people, either wittingly or unwittingly. The problem is that not everyone is going out to buy it intentionally–many are in the market for something else, but getting the drug cut with fentanyl. Or worse, only fentanyl.

“In Sacramento, it’s not fentanyl being sold as heroin even, but it’s being pressed into pill and sold as Norco [a combination of hydrocodone and acetaminophen],” says Nelson. “If counterfeit pills are out there, it is a real problem given the large number of people who ingest rather than inject opioids.” Again, in some of these cases, there’s only fentanyl present, and none of the drug that’s being marketed.

Long-term use of fentanyl is probably somewhat rarer than heroin or other opioids, just by virtue of the fact that it’s so potent that the margin of error is quite small. “A milligram of a drug is a the size of a pinhead. A microgram is thousand times less than that,” says Nelson. “Fentanyl is always mixed into something else. So you’re putting a lot of trust in your dealer. If you make a batch with just a little more, then you see overdose increases in spots in city.” So there are a lot of ways in which the use of fentanyl can go wrong.

Fentanyl will likely grow much more widespread before it peters out. And the fix probably lies not on the street or drug labs, but in exam rooms in doctor’s offices. Changing our prescribing practices would prevent many more addictions than any other avenue, says Nelson. “We are turning out opioid addicts pretty quickly in this country. De novo use is always going to be around–kids are curious and they try something–and the DEA can’t really do anything about that. It’s a Sisyphean task. But stopping the other addicts that form–those who get addicted through prescribing practices–happens by improving the way we practice medicine.”

It would take a lot of people working together to shift how we use opioids in this country. It’s possible, but it won’t happen overnight. “Constituencies on both sides are lining up. But it’s hard, because there are so many players,” says Nelson. “Doctors are involved, patient advocacy groups are involved. Pharma is involved, the government is involved. The problem is incredibly complicated.”

[StylinRed]

there's an even deadlier one that has been found in labs here, W-18, which is used to make fake fentanyl/heroin

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/everything-we-know-so-far-about-w-18-the-drug-thats-100-times-more-powerful-than-fentanyl

W-18 is a novel psychoactive substance that comes in powder form, and likely derives from Chinese labs where little-known drugs and analogues of known drugs are mass-produced and sold online. It is 10,000 times more powerful than morphine and 100 times more powerful than fentanyl, greatly increasing the likelihood of overdose and death.

[elite_baller46]

haha I got offered it by my close friend. shit is killer

[Armind]

:inoutugh:

[swiftshift]

:inoutugh:

PJSalt

[Presto]

Chinese government to work with Canada on stopping flow of fentanyl (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/chinese-government-to-work-with-canada-on-stopping-flow-of-fentanyl-1.3866135)

The Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the Chinese Ministry of Public Security have agreed to work together to help slow the flow of illicit drugs into Canada.

The two governments now have a memorandum of understanding in place to coordinate policing to crack down on illicit fentanyl and other opioids.

"Fentanyl and other opioids pose a grave threat to the safety of Canadian communities," said RCMP Commissioner Bob Paulson in a statement.

"Our meeting this week was an important step forward and highlights the commitment between our two organizations to enhance operational collaboration, identify key areas of concern and work towards a coordinated approach to combat fentanyl trafficking."

From January 1 to the end of October, 622 British Columbians died of illicit drug overdoses, with fentanyl being detected in about 60 per cent of those cases. There were 397 illicit drug deaths in the first 10 months of 2015.

British Columbia declared a public health emergency in April, after a sharp increase in drug-related deaths across the province. The province also relaxed rules around the availability of naloxone, a drug that can reverse some of the effects of an overdose.

The B.C. government has been concerned about China because of the lack of regulations around fentanyl.

The RCMP has seen a recent increase in illicit drugs arriving in Canada. In June, one kilogram of carfentanil from China was seized by the Canada Border Services Agency in Vancouver.

On October 10, Vancouver Island RCMP seized a kilogram of fentanyl during a routine traffic stop. On November 3, a package of Furanyl-fentanyl from China was intercepted at the Vancouver International Mail Centre.

"In China, compounds like fentanyl and their analogs are not controlled substances like they are here in Canada. People are free to make it, sell it and distribute it," said B.C. Health minister Terry Lake. "We think this will go a long way in stemming the flow of deadly fentanyl into British Columbia."

Lake and Premier Christy Clark were in Ottawa last week to ask for more federal action on dealing with the opioid crisis. B.C. has asked the federal government to create regulations around pill presses, often used to put illicit drugs into pill form, before being sold on the black market.

British Columbia is also 30 per cent short of capacity for RCMP drug enforcement officers.

"One of the other things we have asked the federal government for is to make sure the federal drug enforcement RCMP resources are brought up to 100 per cent," said Lake.

https://i.cbc.ca/1.3864830.1479941614!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/original_620/amount-of-fentanyl-it-takes-to-kill-a-person.jpg

RCMP ain't stopping shit. The extreme potency of fentanyl makes it really easy to transport. It's not hard to make, and it'll keep coming. Dumping money into enforcement and emergency services to deal with this is a losing battle. It's really time to look at legalization of hard drugs to regulate it, and provide rehabilitation to those that need it.

[highfive]

^ Why would you regulate it? Look at alcohol for example, legal and regulated yet people still abuse it drink and drive.

Laws need to be harder on criminals. Hell, if you're caught selling this, punishment is death. It'll make people think twice before touching this product.

[DragonChi]

Yeah, that policy is sure working for; China, Mexico, or any other country that has a "war on drugs".

Maybe because regulation, and eventually legalization to rehabilitation is the way to reduce it's negative impact. In my opinion.

Cases:
Prohibition America.
90s Netherlands issue with heroin.

[iPee]

Just had friend pass away recently and attended funernal this morning, Fentanyl related.

[Great68]

Laws need to be harder on criminals. Hell, if you're caught selling this, punishment is death. It'll make people think twice before touching this product.

Right, because Capital Punishment has proven to be sooooo effective at stopping crimes in countries that have it.

US States with Capital Punishment are completely murder, rape & drug free right?

[6o4__boi]

Lost a friend over this as well.

It's crazy how it's seeped into rec user market and it's pretty much in everything regardless of if you knew the supplier or not. It's all fun and games and you think you're well connected and it's just another night of partying and then all of a sudden, it's not.

And that's just among rec users. It's a full-blown epidemic at the street level (junkies) and the rates of people OD'ing is unreal.

[jasonturbo]

WTB: Fentanyl

:pokerface:

[Presto]

Here's some follow-up to the last article:

Stopping the supply of fentanyl won't be easy, experts say (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/stopping-the-supply-of-fentanyl-won-t-be-easy-experts-say-1.3867973)

The problem is fentanyl is difficult to detect, highly potent and can be easily synthesized

Although a new agreement between the RCMP and China aims to stop the flow of fentanyl into Canada, an expert says it won't be easy.

An agreement yesterday formalized a partnership between the RCMP and the Chinese Ministry of Public Safety to limit the trafficking of fentanyl into Canada.

RCMP national drug program coordinator Sgt. Luc Chicoine said the agreement caps over five and a half years of work between the two organizations.

"We've been working with China very closely for the last several years in terms of assisting them and identifying what our problems are," he said.

"What we have seen in China has been a shift. You have to remember that fentanyl is not a drug of abuse in China. So for them, they're trying to address our problems from their country — which is huge, way bigger than we are in terms of population."

Fentanyl is not a controlled substance in China but drugs manufactured for legal use can be diverted for illegal trafficking purposes.

There have been seizures of drugs enroute from China, which can also be easily ordered online.

Simon Fraser University criminology professor Rob Gordon said the drug trade route between Canada and China is nothing new.

"We have had this great North American trade route, this North Pacific trade route in drugs and people," he said. "What is new ... is nobody really understands the volume of stuff."

Chicoine agreed.

He was unable to say exactly how much fentanyl was coming in from China partly because the drug is so difficult to detect. It can be mailed in a package as small as a greeting card, he said.

Gordon said it's added a new dimension to trafficking.

"Because it doesn't require a huge amount of volume to make a huge amount of profit, it's relatively simple to move the stuff undetected," he said.

"It's not like you're transferring bales of marijuana from A to B."

The second problem, Gordon added, is since the drug is chemically-derived rather than plant-based, it can be manufactured anywhere with a laboratory with the right chemicals.

"The fact that it's coming from China is a function of convenience," Gordon explained. "The chemicals that you need for the synthesis of the drug are easily obtained in China and might be more difficult to obtain here."

Gordon predicted other suppliers could easily fill the gap China leaves behind and the drug could even by synthesized here.

Although he called the agreement a massive symbolic win for the government in its fight against fentanyl, Gordon was skeptical it will stem the flow substantially.

"It's one thing in the equation but its not on its own going to do very much in the long term," he said. "These guys are very adept at finding alternative sources."

People are living in a dreamworld if they think some talk with China is going to do anything, at all, to slow the flow of synthetic drugs.

Locking people up is just dealing with the symptoms of the problem. How much money is spent on combating this? Officers aren't cheap, and neither are medical services. Then, if you lock people up, there's costs in incarcerating them. Also, there are other costs like theft and property damage from addicts trying to get their hands on something to sell or trade. It would be interesting to see the bill for all this, and weigh it against options like legalization.

[Mr.Money]

Damn!,what kind of power are the Gangs of China in if they can mass produce a drug like Fentanyl without anybody being caught on the large scale?,Goverments give an easy to pass to optain the chemicals and mixing agents?

Shit they could catch a celebrities kid smoking marijuana,But lets stay way from Fentanyl producers....the Same Drug K2 or Spice thats just as addictive and deadly is produced there also and put in a fancy packaging.

[The_Situation]

Going to try this at Contact this year. See what's all the hype for.

[corollagtSr5]

https://news.vice.com/article/ungass-portugal-what-happened-after-decriminalization-drugs-weed-to-heroin

You can read about Portugal and their success to decriminalization. While drugs is still illegal and traffickers still jailed. Users that are caught using are sent into rehab instead of jail and all together has seen a decline in usage over the years since.

[whitev70r]

Lost a friend over this as well.

It's crazy how it's seeped into rec user market and it's pretty much in everything regardless of if you knew the supplier or not. It's all fun and games and you think you're well connected and it's just another night of partying and then all of a sudden, it's not.

And that's just among rec users. It's a full-blown epidemic at the street level (junkies) and the rates of people OD'ing is unreal.

Someone school me. Is fetanyl coming in as an impurity laced in heroine? If so, damn, don't drug dealers even have some sort of 'code' that you don't do this ... I mean from a purely economic point of view, you're killing your long term customers for heaven's sakes.

Or, is it coming in as fetanyl and people are still using it intentionally knowing how deadly it is?

[jasonturbo]

Someone school me. Is fetanyl coming in as an impurity laced in heroine? If so, damn, don't drug dealers even have some sort of 'code' that you don't do this ... I mean from a purely economic point of view, you're killing your long term customers for heaven's sakes.

Or, is it coming in as fetanyl and people are still using it intentionally knowing how deadly it is?

Second one, people are buying fentanyl because they want fentanyl.

If anything, fentanyl has probably pushed a lot of would-be heroin dealers to being fentanyl dealers - the same types that would have been selling oxy's a couple years ago.

Shit's cray, why can't people just stick to coke jeez.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRu_-9MBpd4

[!LittleDragon]

Damn!,what kind of power are the Gangs of China in if they can mass produce a drug like Fentanyl without anybody being caught on the large scale?,Goverments give an easy to pass to optain the chemicals and mixing agents?

Shit they could catch a celebrities kid smoking marijuana,But lets stay way from Fentanyl producers....the Same Drug K2 or Spice thats just as addictive and deadly is produced there also and put in a fancy packaging.

From what I saw on CBC, the Fentanyl is legally produced in China. It's a legit medical drug with legit medical uses. What doesn't make its way to the western medical system somehow ends up in the hands of drug dealers to be diluted and sold as fake heroin.

I guess not being trained chemists, they don't know how much to dilute it?

[Hondaracer]

the bi-products to make Fentynal are not regulated in china as they are in Canada, therefor 3rd party producers can create Fentynal and ship it outside of China

Fentynal and Heroin are both Opiates, they arent passed off for one another, you're just getting an opiate either way, the strength is what is different.

[ToneCapone]

I guess not being trained chemists, they don't know how much to dilute it?

this. the reason for all the deaths.

A good friend got hooked on fake oxy 80's which we later found out was fentanyl. If you swallow a whole pill like a normal oxy it will kill you. You can only rail a part of it - at least that's how he was doin it. This shit took a guy that was healthy and on top of his game and turned him into a complete junky over the course of 1-2 years. Be very careful with drugs these days. High potency is the exact reason its being sold (lower cost + high drug effect = very dangerous for the consumer).

[Berzerker]

WTB: Fentanyl

:pokerface:

I don't have any Fentanyl but I do have some totally pure MMA.

Trust me.

Berz out.

[Berzerker]

Someone school me. Is fetanyl coming in as an impurity laced in heroine? If so, damn, don't drug dealers even have some sort of 'code' that you don't do this ... I mean from a purely economic point of view, you're killing your long term customers for heaven's sakes.

Or, is it coming in as fetanyl and people are still using it intentionally knowing how deadly it is?



Fentanyl is its own drug.
You need less of it to get the same effect as or more of than what's out there now. What that means is, you can dilute your product (less cost to you) and increase the high. This does 2 things. Puts money in your pocket and makes people higher (happier). Fentanyl is also MUCH more addictive than other substances. So not only are the people getting higher, for cheaper and the occasional users are now becoming addicts.
The fact that is so potent is where the problem is. When you put it in a pill form you can NEVER assure that your mixture is completely mixed evenly. Mixing powders is impossible to spread it evenly. You are going to have some pills that have barely any and your gonna have some that will kill you.

Stay safe out there. Honestly at this point I'm glad this wasn't around during my rave days. I wouldn't even think of doing drugs these days.

Berz out.

[Hondaracer]

yea your typical weekend warrior who bucks a couple rails in a bar bathroom is absolutely insane to keep on keeping on at the moment...

[Berzerker]

Exactly the way I see it. It's scary right now.

Berz out.

[Berzerker]

On a related note I'm not sure if anyone remembers that couple from North Van who OD'd awhile back but there was new information that came out. They weren't just casual users. The guy was an addict. Started off with pain meds from an construction accident and turned into an addiction. Percs and Oxy's. He had been to treatment and yet still was a user. Sad when something simple like a back injury turns into a life changing ailment. Especially when it's the doctors who are the pimps in the situation and keep prescribing to people who are clearly addicted.

Berz out.

[N.V.M.]

There seems to be a lot of concern and empathy for junkies. I'm not one of them.

[blkgsr]

my wife told me a stat the other day....there was an OD in vancouver ever 5 mins after welfare checks last week

one guy OD'd 10 times in 24 hrs

[Traum]

my wife told me a stat the other day....there was an OD in vancouver ever 5 mins after welfare checks last week

one guy OD'd 10 times in 24 hrs
When funding for social workers gets slashed back that much, addicts and mentally ill people have nobody to turn to / count on for help. I'm not saying social programs can eliminate addiction problems, but I do believe it has a measurable effect in reducing the numbers to a certain extent.

ER visits are known to be extremely expensive. And what ends up happening right now is, the money that is saved from cutting back on social programs are nowhere nearly enough to make up for the costs of these people hitting ER on a repeated basis. In the end, it ends up costing the province more money, and the healthcare system gets overloaded as well.

[Galactic_Phantom]

ER visits are known to be extremely expensive. And what ends up happening right now is, the money that is saved from cutting back on social programs are nowhere nearly enough to make up for the costs of these people hitting ER on a repeated basis. In the end, it ends up costing the province more money, and the healthcare system gets overloaded as well.

Exactly why Insite needs to exist. It ends up saving more money on healthcare costs for these pieces of shit.

[donk.]

Natural selection.

[Mr.Money]

Natural selection.


There seems to be a lot of concern and empathy for junkies. I'm not one of them.



i also got fucked over when a junkie smashed my car window for the 25 cents he saw on the chair....Fuck them and there waste of life. :pokerface:

also the person next week at metrotown parking lot got his sunroof smashed in and took even longer to repair it then a normal driver window.

[DragonChi]

There seems to be a lot of concern and empathy for junkies. I'm not one of them.

We could start killing junkies like the Philippines, if that makes you feel better. :)

[acrophobia]

We could start killing junkies like the Philippines, if that makes you feel better. :)

With drugs like fentanyl becoming increasingly popular, "we" don't need to do a thing; the addicts are removing themselves more frequently already :okay:

[MG1]

It's not always addicts.... one day a kid you know will be at a party and someone will give that kid drugs laced with whatever.......... dead the first time.

That's what's scary about this. Kids are dumb. Hell, even adults are dumb.

[k2_alpha]

Keep in mind opiates don't kill you directly. Opiates affect the nervous system; causing you to not to breathe. Narcan blocks the opiate receptors in you brain. Thus "waking" you up. However, Narcan has a half life of roughly 20-30 mins. Heroin, Fentanyl, and now Carfentanyl last in the body much longer.

If you want to save an opiate patient, you breathe for them. Make sure they have enough oxygen.

Majority of the attention is focused on the users in DT east side and in Surrey Whalley area. The user's here are mostly harden users. There are also lots of resources available there. Shelters all now have Narcan, oxygen, and bag valve mask (bag thing that a person squeezes to push air into somebody's lungs). Also, there are extra ambulance/fire staff working.

These users know the risk. These guys OD multiple times. It is not something new.

The scary part is the depressant drugs (Fentanyl and Carfentanyl) are now appearing in non depressant drugs. Cocaine, Meth, MDMA. Most recreational users do not have the tolerance. They go down quick and hard.

For example:
Grieving Kamloops parents call for action after 27-year-old son dies from taking fentanyl-laced cocaine at wedding - Kamloops This Week (http://www.kamloopsthisweek.com/grieving-kamloops-parents-calls-action-27-year-old-son-dies-taking-fentanyl-laced-cocaine-wedding/)

If you are doing drugs, take a small bit first. Test the drug. It may save your life.

(I'm the guy that rides in the big white truck when you get hurt)

[k2_alpha]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2agmAPEA1Q

A quick glimpse on how long time users walk, talk, and move.
This unfortunately is now the norm at St Paul ER

[Mr.HappySilp]

Maybe we should follow in philiphine hard on drugs approach. If you are caught selling that shit you get a bullet in your head. Anyone can kill you and is not against the law to do so.

Philippines drugs war: The woman who kills dealers for a living - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-37172002)
Drug deaths in the Philippines: Is President Duterte's war on drugs out of control? - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/03/asia/philippines-war-on-drugs/)

Let's be honest here. The gov have no way stop Fentanyl from coming into Canada. Hiring more security staff, giving the affected medical care is an endless pit. You can spend 100^9999 trillion dollars and it won't stop anything. The only want is to get tough. Is tough but what can we do.

[Adorkami]

My wife is a nurse and for some of there procedures they use fentanyl, because of what's going on the majority are really paranoid something will happen to them. I had a co worker die to it around a year ago(was mixed with coke) wasn't a hardcore drug addict. Only way accidental overdoses will dramatically reduce is if the government regulates them rather than criminalizes them. I'm sure some would be paranoid that the government is giving them something evil but would be a lot safer if the impurities are removed and people had a better idea of how much to take because the drug purity would remain constant.

[whitev70r]

(I'm the guy that rides in the big white truck when you get hurt)

I assume that means you're a paramedic. Honestly, how do you guys do it?

I saw the video and you save one, he goes out and gets another fix, OD again, and you bring him back. It seems the health care system is really stressed and overloaded.

[Traum]

I saw the video and you save one, he goes out and gets another fix, OD again, and you bring him back. It seems the health care system is really stressed and overloaded.
Even as a casual observer (and regular citizen, obviously), that was such a frustrating sight to see. On one hand, I am sympathetic to the fact that these guys probably couldn't help themselves. And yet on the other hand, you know they are knowingly doing this to themselves, with the result that regular citizens are footing the bill for their lack of responsibility.

:yuno:

[i-vtecyo]

I assume that means you're a paramedic. Honestly, how do you guys do it?

I saw the video and you save one, he goes out and gets another fix, OD again, and you bring him back. It seems the health care system is really stressed and overloaded.

Its really tough and frustrating for the paramedics working in the downtown east side. Its a huge crisis over there and giving people narcan kits isnt a permanent solution but rather it gives them false confidence that they're safe and in fact, it actually encourages them to inject more frequently leading to more OD's. They start relying on others to narcan them but what happens when no one is around? For example, many in-sites are always full and these guys are so impatient that they start injecting in the main lobby and eventually backing up into the streets/alleys/public washrooms with no supervision and they OD. Also, with the narcan kits, some ppl carrying them wont even call for help because they think they're "doctors" but yet they dont know that narcan is excreted quickly.

In addition, these guys still believe that they're buying heroin but the truth is that 99.9% its fentanyl and maybe even carfentenil plus everything is laced with fentanyl now such as cocaine, crystal meth, and even marijuana. Maybe if we can start providing these guys with what they want instead of throwing out narcan kits and opening more in-sites, it'll prevent a lot of trips to the ER because this way they will know what they're taking as well as their tolerance.

[Hondaracer]

definately dont envy paramedics, they deserve every dollar/raise/etc. they make.

[Great68]

I just can't help but feeling really unconcerned about this whole Fentanyl thing myself.

I mean I don't like hearing about people OD'ing and dying, especially the "casual" users, but at the same time I'm so far removed from even knowing any "casual" users in my life that I just can't get into caring about it too much.

This will sound callous, but this seems like a problem that will eventually fix itself....

[Tapioca]

I just can't help but feeling really unconcerned about this whole Fentanyl thing myself.

I mean I don't like hearing about people OD'ing and dying, especially the "casual" users, but at the same time I'm so far removed from even knowing any "casual" users in my life that I just can't get into caring about it too much.

This will sound callous, but this seems like a problem that will eventually fix itself....

I'm kind of with you there, but this situation, or crisis if you want to call it that, has really brought to the forefront how many recreational drug users there are in this province.

That's the scary thing - relatives, colleagues, clients - people who seem to be regular people in control of their lives are using drugs.

[Berzerker]

This is the kind of story that hits home and shows that it can affect anyone even casual users.

Kamloops man dies of fentanyl-related overdose after Kelowna wedding - British Columbia - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/overdose-death-kelowna-wedding-1.3784975)

Few guys go up to the room for a bump during the wedding party and end up ODing. No one deserves to have to deal with that aftermath.

Berz out.

[stylez2k4]

the bi-products to make Fentynal are not regulated in china as they are in Canada, therefor 3rd party producers can create Fentynal and ship it outside of China

Fentynal and Heroin are both Opiates, they arent passed off for one another, you're just getting an opiate either way, the strength is what is different.

Just a minor thing. Heroin is an opiate but Fentanyl is not. Heroin and Fentanyl are opioids.

[stylez2k4]

Maybe we should follow in philiphine hard on drugs approach. If you are caught selling that shit you get a bullet in your head. Anyone can kill you and is not against the law to do so.

Philippines drugs war: The woman who kills dealers for a living - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-37172002)
Drug deaths in the Philippines: Is President Duterte's war on drugs out of control? - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/03/asia/philippines-war-on-drugs/)

Let's be honest here. The gov have no way stop Fentanyl from coming into Canada. Hiring more security staff, giving the affected medical care is an endless pit. You can spend 100^9999 trillion dollars and it won't stop anything. The only want is to get tough. Is tough but what can we do.


Except the tough approach hasn't been shown to work. Just look the US and their war on drugs.

I just can't help but feeling really unconcerned about this whole Fentanyl thing myself.

I mean I don't like hearing about people OD'ing and dying, especially the "casual" users, but at the same time I'm so far removed from even knowing any "casual" users in my life that I just can't get into caring about it too much.

This will sound callous, but this seems like a problem that will eventually fix itself....

It does affect you though even if its indirectly. It is our tax money and social resources that goes into dealing with the addicts.

[adambomb]

Do you live in Vancouver and live a clean lifestyle? That's great! :thumbsup:

Time for you to pay up for the citizens who don't.

This afternoon, city council voted to approve the 2017 budget which will include an additional 0.5 property tax increase to help pay for the response to the ongoing opioid crisis. Overall, property taxes in Vancouver will go up 3.9 per cent.

Vancouver approves property tax increase for opioid crisis response - NEWS 1130 (http://www.news1130.com/2016/12/13/vancouver-approves-property-tax-increase-pay-opioid-crisis-response/)

[dvst8]

IDo you live in Vancouver and live a clean lifestyle? That's great! :thumbsup:

Time for you to pay up for the citizens who don't.

Vancouver approves property tax increase for opioid crisis response - NEWS 1130 (http://www.news1130.com/2016/12/13/vancouver-approves-property-tax-increase-pay-opioid-crisis-response/)

Whoever thought this out is a mf-ing genius.....FailFish

[Presto]

:facepalm:
FFS

[6o4__boi]

mfw i don't live in Vancouver anymore

:awwyeah:

[meme405]

Haha. Hilarious how this comes at a time when we were just discussing in another thread how Out-of-bounds skiiers should/shouldn't have to pay for the costs related to their rescue.

I'm 100% more in favor of paying for saving the life of a lost outdoor enthusiast (who 99.9% of the time will not make the same mistake twice), than a drug addict (who will probably make the same mistake next week as well).

For the record the statement above does not mean I am entirely against paying for extra help dealing with this fentanyl problem, but I think people will admit there is a lot more willful ignorance by a drug user than a skiier who gets stuck out of bounds.

[Great68]

Haha. Hilarious how this comes at a time when we were just discussing in another thread how Out-of-bounds skiiers should/shouldn't have to pay for the costs related to their rescue.

I'm 100% more in favor of paying for saving the life of a lost outdoor enthusiast (who 99.9% of the time will not make the same mistake twice), than a drug addict (who will probably make the same mistake next week as well).

For the record the statement above does not mean I am entirely against paying for extra help dealing with this fentanyl problem, but I think people will admit there is a lot more willful ignorance by a drug user than a skiier who gets stuck out of bounds.

Drug addicts making the same mistake next week?
I'm hearing stories of these junkies getting revived from OD's 3 to 4 times a day

[meme405]

Drug addicts making the same mistake next week?
I'm hearing stories of these junkies getting revived from OD's 3 to 4 times a day

Okay, at that point, we don't need to increase boots on the ground, or mobile vans with life saving equipment.

For a million bucks we need to build a small warehouse with 100 padded cells in it... That's how you would save a motherfuckers life in that case.

[Hondaracer]

i wouldnt have such a problem with it if they actually came out and said exactly where the money will go

in typical Vancouver fasion enable a tax with zero plan

[adambomb]

I hope the money goes towards the gentrification of the Downtown Eastside. :rant

Spend that money and mow down all those SRO's and put up glass towers for sale at market rates for the working class, thus earning more of that delicious property tax the local gov't loves so much. Do not mix social housing with market housing. Eliminate the stolen goods exchange that masquerades as the "DTES street market", Build some high rise social housing projects near the north end of the Oak Street bridge, south of Kent Street on that unused dirt and move the drug infused ghetto to a controlled neighbourhood with CCTV cameras.

I know, my ideas will never happen.

We can just throw more money at the DTES and continue to allow the dealers to keep flooding the DTES with fentanyl and use this money so first responders get relief and the same addict can get revived for the 3rd time in a day. SeemsGood

[fishCak3s]

I rather pay a bit more on a tax that I get an idea where the money is going than paying taxes that I have no idea where the surplus went (ie: all the $ the government raked in from the housing market).

[carisear]

I hope the money goes towards the gentrification of the Downtown Eastside. :rant

Spend that money and mow down all those SRO's and put up glass towers for sale at market rates for the working class, thus earning more of that delicious property tax the local gov't loves so much. Do not mix social housing with market housing. Eliminate the stolen goods exchange that masquerades as the "DTES street market", Build some high rise social housing projects near the north end of the Oak Street bridge, south of Kent Street on that unused dirt and move the drug infused ghetto to a controlled neighbourhood with CCTV cameras.

I know, my ideas will never happen.

We can just throw more money at the DTES and continue to allow the dealers to keep flooding the DTES with fentanyl and use this money so first responders get relief and the same addict can get revived for the 3rd time in a day. SeemsGood

i'm thanking and failing you at the same time. I agree with most of your points, but don't put that shit in marpole. it's already gregor's dumping ground. LEAVE MARPOLE ALONE.

[GLOW]

i wouldnt have such a problem with it if they actually came out and said exactly where the money will go

in typical Vancouver fasion enable a tax with zero plan

that's b/c your head would explode from rage/anger if you found out how it was actually being spent. SwiftRage LUL

[Mr.HappySilp]

I'm 100% more in favor of paying for saving the life of a lost outdoor enthusiast (who 99.9% of the time will not make the same mistake twice), than a drug addict (who will probably make the same mistake next week as well).




You mean in the next hour right @@

[drunkhomer]

why don't we instead of spending millions dollars on bike lanes and instead use it to help fight the drug crisis...

[MelonBoy]

From what I saw on CBC, the Fentanyl is legally produced in China. It's a legit medical drug with legit medical uses. What doesn't make its way to the western medical system somehow ends up in the hands of drug dealers to be diluted and sold as fake heroin.

I guess not being trained chemists, they don't know how much to dilute it?


Diluting/repackaging is the problem. No drug dealer is gonna cut one pill at a time and mix the perfect amount per pill. They will just grind it up and mix it in batches. When they repackage the pill. They really don't know how much is fent or w/e they diluted it with...

[DragonChi]

Money won't do anything to change our drug problem.

Policy and stigma change will.

[DragonChi]

When they mix it, the filler and fent isn't uniformly distributed either. So it makes the problem worse because every pill is a different dose.

Different drug, same principle.

https://youtu.be/zZMETFXFE24?t=429

Holy shit just watched that Vice video OP posted. Depressing af. Damn man, people with addiction struggle everyday. Even the addicts say it, OD or quit. That seems to be the only reasonable way to address this. The video says that people that want to recover have to want it themselves, you can't do the work for them. I believe that's 100% true.

[68style]

The drug is going to naloxone for first responders... I know guys who administer upwards of 20 naloxone kits in a single shift now... Sometimes a person has so much in their system they need 3+ doses! Then they go to the hospital and the next day theyw're back out and Od'd on fentanyl again. It's literally a crisis at this point.

If anything this will finally push the government toward regulating drugs somehow.

[GLOW]

why don't we instead of spending millions dollars on bike lanes and instead use it to help fight the drug crisis...

but bike lanes are very important
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/H5RrU146124/maxresdefault.jpg
http://dandyhorsemagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Sherbourne-bike-lane21.jpg

[Shorn]

a bit late to this thread.. but i have a bit of unique perspective on the issue. i'm a paramedic and i also work in dispatch operations with BC Ambulance Service.

there's some people in this thread who are suggesting that are suggesting that this problem will go away eventually if we just let junkies die, etc. as someone who's basically dedicated their career to saving lives (or at least try), i couldn't disagree more.

every human life is worth something, to someone, everyone has mothers, fathers, kids, siblings, family, friends who care about them. the fact is that these people made a wrong decision in life and with so many of these people we've brought back, they're telling us that they WANT to get clean, and they WANT to stop, but maybe what some of you haven't seen in real life before is that these people NEED their next fix or else they have real, physical, sometimes life threatening symptoms from withdrawal, and this withdrawal is so bad that even though they fully know their next hit could be their last with the whole fentanyl thing, they still HAVE to go for it.

what's the solution? i don't know, that's above my pay grade (though i think the problem begins at the border). what i DO know is that letting these people die is definitely not the answer.

as for the property tax increase to fight this crisis, FYI its going straight to the first responders, aka Vancouver Fire & Rescue. they are funding a 3 man full time medic truck (not naloxone/narcan, which is a dirt cheap drug), which is complete bullshit because right now what we lack is not firefighters, it's paramedics. ambulances are often in vancouver funneled from as far as mission and agassiz and even further because of how busy we are. a normal 12 hour shift in vancouver generally means you leave the station at the beginning, and you don't make it back to quarters until past the end of your shift. whereas firefighters will actually get sleep on a night shift. to put things in perspective, there are a total of 6 ambulance stations in proper vancouver, and 20 fire halls.

of course, this is getting a little too deep in the political rivalry between fire and paramedics. but the fact is, we don't NEED firefighters to attend medical emergencies. the only reason they do now is 1) maintain their massive funding because there simply aren't that many fires anymore and 2) they can often get to a scene faster than us because of how busy we are and how many ambulances we actually lack. they don't have the medical training and tools like we do, and it's in the best interest of patient care to leave medical emergencies to us.

i will admit though that firefighters are much better at PR than the ambulance service which helps them a lot.

anyway enough of a rant, just thought you guys would like more perspective on this whole situation.

[subordinate]

Great post Shorn, 100% agreed. There needs to be more paramedics/ambulances.

[68style]

Paramedics need a calendar like firefighters.

Seriosusly though, everyone gets mad at firefighters getting all the prestige and the least of the work... police also feel the same way. The lack of emergency responders here has left it that a lot of the naloxone is being administered by police officers now. That's not right, they're not trained for this sort of stuff... something has to change pretty fast. Unfortunately, "fast" is not in a government's vocabulary.

[meme405]

what's the solution? i don't know, that's above my pay grade (though i think the problem begins at the border). what i DO know is that letting these people die is definitely not the answer.

Can I ask this: If you were to lock these people up and very closely administer them drugs as you wean them off. Would this work?

There has been articles in the past which have looked at this, and it is a solution the province employs. This article describes the issue of needing additional beds:

Are there enough beds for drug treatment in B.C.? - British Columbia - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/are-there-enough-beds-for-drug-treatment-in-b-c-1.3756420)

If this solution is one that works, then I would happily pay an additional .5% tax (make it province wide), and instead of just reviving these junkies and letting them lose to trip on this shit an hour later, after you revive them handcuff them to a bed and re-rehabilitate the shit out of them.

What I don't like is the idea of paying taxes which only half-assed patch up the problem, and lets be clear I think that's exactly what the government does with everything.

The reason why these people continue to do this, is we afford them way too much luxury to do so. I mean it's like the son of rich parents, they give him everything in the world regardless of how much wrong or right he does, they bail him out of trouble whenever he gets into it, and support him no matter the travesty of what he does. At some point those parents need to cut that kid off and let him learn a lesson on his own.

Probably not a good metaphor as I am not condoning letting these junkies die in the streets, but what I am implying, is just reviving them and letting them loose in the streets again just to do that shit again isn't a solution either.

[Shorn]

Can I ask this: If you were to lock these people up and very closely administer them drugs as you wean them off. Would this work?

There has been articles in the past which have looked at this, and it is a solution the province employs. This article describes the issue of needing additional beds:

Are there enough beds for drug treatment in B.C.? - British Columbia - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/are-there-enough-beds-for-drug-treatment-in-b-c-1.3756420)

If this solution is one that works, then I would happily pay an additional .5% tax (make it province wide), and instead of just reviving these junkies and letting them lose to trip on this shit an hour later, after you revive them handcuff them to a bed and re-rehabilitate the shit out of them.

What I don't like is the idea of paying taxes which only half-assed patch up the problem, and lets be clear I think that's exactly what the government does with everything.

The reason why these people continue to do this, is we afford them way too much luxury to do so. I mean it's like the son of rich parents, they give him everything in the world regardless of how much wrong or right he does, they bail him out of trouble whenever he gets into it, and support him no matter the travesty of what he does. At some point those parents need to cut that kid off and let him learn a lesson on his own.

Probably not a good metaphor as I am not condoning letting these junkies die in the streets, but what I am implying, is just reviving them and letting them loose in the streets again just to do that shit again isn't a solution either.

So basically what you're suggesting is involuntary rehab. I think this is done in some places in the US, and I'm not sure how well it works. I mean you can broadly divide repeat overdose victims into 2 groups, the people who want to stop but can't, and the people who have some sort of mental illness and does not want to stop at all. I think that involuntary rehab would work only for the first group, since the second group would be much more likely to relapse.

Now is it morally correct? Some would say that yes, these people lost their right to freedom when they started incurring costs for society. Others would argue that basic liberties such as being free from imprisonment should be guaranteed unless you've been convicted/charged of a crime.

Now legally, police can apprehend anybody that is acting in a manner that endangers their own or other's safety under the Mental Health Act section 28 (commonly known as being sectioned). Generally this is used for forcing mentally ill patients to go to the hospital with us, but I could foresee it being used for involuntary rehab as well.

So would it work? I think it would definitely cause a decrease in general of overdoses, but morally, I'm not so sure about. It would be a better use of funds than a shiny new fire truck though.

[ToneCapone]

Nine people die of drug overdoses in Vancouver last night - NEWS 1130 (http://www.news1130.com/2016/12/16/nine-people-die-drug-overdoses-vancouver-last-night/)

9 people in one night.. damn. I thought 3 from the cold was bad enough

[Berzerker]

Just saw this myself. The 3 from the cold are sad. People froze to death. That's a shitty way to go. The overdose victims? :pokerface:

Berz out.

[Hondaracer]

http://www.news1130.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/sites/9/2016/12/16/palmer.jpg

Gregor: Things are all going to plan, at this rate we will meet the homelessness goal!

[Mr.Money]

there is beds for overnight freezing weather but crazy people gonna crazy people..."I don't like it there".

[adambomb]

What about the people who choose to get high? Those who know they're addicted, know that there is help available to get clean, yet choose to get a $10 bag despite the consequences. How do you handle those people and the continuing drain they have on first responders? :squint:

For those that don't know, the next income assistance day in BC is Wednesday Dec 21, 2016. Those who want to do drugs, will get their drugs. Most likely at midnight on Tuesday when the funds go into their accounts, some will most likely get revived 2-3 times that night. fix after fix after fix. ResidentSleeper

[GabAlmighty]

Not much sympathy from me here. Everyone at some point made a choice. A lot of my friends are casual/somewhat habitual users and I'm scared for the day when I have to deal with it. I'll be sad and upset they're gone, but I'm going to find it hard to be sympathetic.

Agreed on the entire "need more paramedics" statement.

[meme405]

So basically what you're suggesting is involuntary rehab. I think this is done in some places in the US, and I'm not sure how well it works. I mean you can broadly divide repeat overdose victims into 2 groups, the people who want to stop but can't, and the people who have some sort of mental illness and does not want to stop at all. I think that involuntary rehab would work only for the first group, since the second group would be much more likely to relapse.

Now is it morally correct? Some would say that yes, these people lost their right to freedom when they started incurring costs for society. Others would argue that basic liberties such as being free from imprisonment should be guaranteed unless you've been convicted/charged of a crime.

Now legally, police can apprehend anybody that is acting in a manner that endangers their own or other's safety under the Mental Health Act section 28 (commonly known as being sectioned). Generally this is used for forcing mentally ill patients to go to the hospital with us, but I could foresee it being used for involuntary rehab as well.

So would it work? I think it would definitely cause a decrease in general of overdoses, but morally, I'm not so sure about. It would be a better use of funds than a shiny new fire truck though.

I agree morally you are approaching a line which is continuously getting thinner and thinner; however, I think the greater good is still the winning factor here, and the greater good is the fact that you would be saving many of these people's lives.

You describe the two groups, well it sounds the second group has made a conscious decision, they are going to do this until it takes their life. In that case just let them do it. I'm sorry but it's tough to continue defending someone who doesn't seem to want your defense. Someone who has put themselves to the brink of self destruction and death, been saved, put through an entire rehabilitation program, and then decided; "yeah fuck it, gimme drugs". That person is damaged beyond the help that we as a society can provide for them.

It comes back to a similar moral dilemma as assisted suicide; someone is suffering immensely, and yet we as a society continue to revive and save them, when in reality maybe they have just come to terms with it, and would rather it just be done.

[68style]

^ usually these people have some sort of mental trauma man, they don't see the world the same as the rest of us or are able to control their thoughts like us.

You could easily switch your whole middle paragraph out, take out "repeated drug user" and insert "physically and mentally disabled" person there too and with that sort of mentality they should all be killed and left to die too since they're, theoretically, unable to contribute to society, are a continuous drain financially to the system and nothing will ever change.

There no halfway point for human life, you're either for saving everyone or you're for an elitist system where someone arbitrarily decides that certain groups of people aren't worth it. Where do you draw the line? Is it the same as the next person or the person after that? Hitler also thought the line was drawn somewhere too and believed fervently in it... Slippery slope.

[mikemhg]

there is beds for overnight freezing weather but crazy people gonna crazy people..."I don't like it there".

LOL, have you ever been to one of these overnight shelters before? If not, you probably wouldn't want to sleep there either. To many of those on the streets our shelters are more dangerous and nasty than sleeping in the alley.

[Mr.Money]

LOL, have you ever been to one of these overnight shelters before? If not, you probably wouldn't want to sleep there either. To many of those on the streets our shelters are more dangerous and nasty than sleeping in the alley.

100% of the people with colds or illness coughing 24 hours ,Pissing,spitting on the floor...It's a pool of sickness.

[ZN6]

http://www.news1130.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/sites/9/2016/12/16/palmer.jpg

Gregor: Things are all going to plan, at this rate we will meet the homelessness goal!

Actually, by his facial expression, he's probably thinking: "I wonder if your wife will be happier banging a man who actually had hair. Like me for example."

[ZN6]

Any way, back on topic. As I grow older, I find I have less and less empathy which I know is a bad thing. At the same time, how do you help addicts who don't want to get clean. There comes a point when a guy OD's multiple times and the paramedic has to be thinking: What's the damn point? The guy on the next shift's gotta do the same thing to this guy a couple of hours away.

I'll do my part to help those in need who can't help themselves out of circumstance, but I now refuse to help those who can't help themselves by their own choice.

[Gnomes]

A St Paul hospital ER nurse says there are addicts who hang around at the hospital getting high on fentanyl knowing they will be resuscitated. One druggie was admitted 3 times in a 24 hour period.

[godwin]

The fall out of this will affect disproportionately the sick and the elderly. Since ambulance care is first come first serve, if all ambulances are attending to drug overdoses, the resources will be stretched thin for things like heart attacks.. Good luck if you or any of your family members have a cardiac event at home this Christmas..

Either way we have to treat them.. do we use the Emergency services which cost several magnitude than out patient services operationally? or build facilities which cost money up front, but lessen the blight. It is not "bleeding" heart but the latter is more cost effective. Heck if you count up each service call by Ambulance, Fire Truck, ER visit.. just one call can easily be close to 10k all said and done (that's a lot of rent!).. I rather have them at a facility with supervision than splurging on trucks running around the city.

Honestly there is an elephant in the room here, for people out of province we should bill the province of origin for the care.

Not much sympathy from me here. Everyone at some point made a choice. A lot of my friends are casual/somewhat habitual users and I'm scared for the day when I have to deal with it. I'll be sad and upset they're gone, but I'm going to find it hard to be sympathetic.

Agreed on the entire "need more paramedics" statement.

[k2_alpha]

The fall out of this will affect disproportionately the sick and the elderly. Since ambulance care is first come first serve, if all ambulances are attending to drug overdoses, the resources will be stretched thin for things like heart attacks.. Good luck if you or any of your family members have a cardiac event at home this Christmas..

As mentioned by Shorn before, ambulances or AKA cars are being pulled in from other districts. The ambulance system is provincial system. Hence cars from as far away as Pemberton are doing calls in Vancouver. Cars from Mission are being pulled into Surrey for calls. The "back fill" are cars from areas further areas. Chiliwack cars in Langley - Hope cars in Chiliwack and so forth.

An overdose call in the current DTES typically goes like this:

Patient administers the drug
Drug affects begin
The desired "high" begins
The undesired effects begins - Respiratory system begins to be affected -Breathing Rates decrease/Respiratory arrest begins - Hypoxia begins (oxygen starvation)
OD is noticed by bystanders or shelter staff or community support workers
911 is called on behalf the patient
If Naloxone AKA Narcan is present, 0.4mg is administered intramuscularly doses are in 0.4mg. More than one dose may be administered.
Depending if equipped personnel are present, oxygen may be given to the patient by Bag Valve Mask (BVM)

Vancouver Fire Department (VFD) arrive. Usually in a team of 4.
If patient is still in respiratory arrest VFD will take over scene and begin to provide assisted ventilations with BVM and oxygen. VFD may choose to admin more Narcan Intramuscularly

Primary Care Paramedics (PCP) usually a team of 2 from BC Ambulance Service (BCAS) arrive and take over scene
Additional dose of Naloxone is typically given intramuscularly. Intravenous (IV) line maybe started. Narcan may be given via IV
Advance Life Care Paramedics (ACP) arrive and receive report from PCP about care
ACP will decide if patient needs more Naloxone is needed, if patient needs to be attached to Life Pack 12 for cardiac monitoring, if advanced airway is needed

Patients typically rouse from OD
VFD is cleared by BCAS
ACP clears from call
Patient decides if he wants to be taken to the hospital - PCP transport patient to hospital
PCP provides report to ER Triage Nurse
Patient care is now handed over to ER Department

[Shorn]

The fall out of this will affect disproportionately the sick and the elderly. Since ambulance care is first come first serve, if all ambulances are attending to drug overdoses, the resources will be stretched thin for things like heart attacks.. Good luck if you or any of your family members have a cardiac event at home this Christmas..

just wanted to say it's not quite first come first serve - all 911 calls are triaged using an internationally recognized triage system. an unconscious not breathing overdose will receive the highest priority, which trumps anything else. so if there is an ambulance responding to a chest pain call, and an overdose comes in that's close by, that ambulance will get diverted there instead.

[Presto]

Shorn, what are your thoughts on decriminalizing and regulating all drugs?

If we can learn anything from history, it's that prohibition doesn't work. If they can't get it legally, people will get they need from illicit sources. In the case of the alcohol prohibition, consumers risked blindness, paralysis, or even death. Yet, they still wanted it.

Pumping more funds into emergency services is just dealing with the symptoms, and doing nothing to address the problem.

[k2_alpha]

Overdose calls are considered highly advanced calls. However, with the recent "epidemic" these calls are now routine for most Metro Vancouver paramedics. Just the sheer number of attending these calls.

There are lots to consider during these calls.

Things such as scene safety - Are there used needles around? Are there any people that do not like Emergency Responders?

Managing the people present on scene -If the patient OD in a shelter, there are the people that use the shelter, typically 2 shelter staff, 4 VFD, 2 PCP, 2 ACP and of course the patient.

Managing the oxygen levels and ventilations - the person providing assisted ventilations are essentially breathing for the patient.

Managing the temporary reversal of the narcotic overdose. Narcan dislodges opiates in the opiate receptors in the brain. Also, continues to occupy the receptors temporarily. Narcan half life is typically lasts 30-80 mins in most patients. However, most opiate half life is much longer. For example, Fentanyl half life is around 220 mins. Thus, the patient may OD again after the initial OD reversal.

While Narcan is touted at the miracle drug, it has some very bad effects as well. As explained above, Narcan dislodges opiates in the receptors. If a large dose is administered, too much opiate may be dislodged. Pushing the patient into withdrawal.

Also, OD in the DTES are typically in an enclosed small space with lots of people. Narcotic OD patients typically hypoxic at some time during the OD. This may lead to violent awakenings. Punching and kicking while not present in all OD calls, are quite common. More prevalent in patients who suffer longer hypoxia time and those who have not OD as often.



Trying to demystify OD calls in DTES. Tried to explain the best I can with out using medical jargon. Hope it helps!

[Shorn]

Shorn, what are your thoughts on decriminalizing and regulating all drugs?

If we can learn anything from history, it's that prohibition doesn't work. If they can't get it legally, people will get they need from illicit sources. In the case of the alcohol prohibition, consumers risked blindness, paralysis, or even death. Yet, they still wanted it.

Pumping more funds into emergency services is just dealing with the symptoms, and doing nothing to address the problem.

i support decriminalization of all drugs. i think drug use is a public health issue, not a criminal one. for instance, portugal did it in 2000, and it worked great for them. overdose deaths down, overall drug use down.

i think it would take a lot of work for it to be implemented here though, with public opinion and all that. but if anywhere in canada, vancouver is the most likely to happen.. with the fentanyl crisis maybe people will start realizing that what we're doing now isn't working.

[Soundy]

Those who want to do drugs, will get their drugs. Most likely at midnight on Tuesday when the funds go into their accounts, some will most likely get revived 2-3 times that night. fix after fix after fix. ResidentSleeper
It's all good bro, the good taxpayers of the CoV will be picking up the costs from here on out.

Glad I live in Abby.

[godwin]

That's what I was trying to say. It is NOT just the taxpayer of CoV.. it is the whole province.. then it is the whole country. Resources are pulled all over the province.

A ER doc get paid 200k ~ a year.. now say it goes to 300k for overtime etc.. where does that 100k comes from? Not from CoV. Province will just work with what they have.. now something will have to get chopped.. certainly not in Vancouver.. Maybe Abby?

On the long run it is cheaper to house them properly.. rather than to let the addicts use emerg services.

Yes we need addiction treatment spaces but we can't pull them out of thin air. WE already hired a lot of specialist from the south to cover.

It's all good bro, the good taxpayers of the CoV will be picking up the costs from here on out.

Glad I live in Abby.

[CivicBlues]

Glad I live in Abby.

Said no one ever? :fuckthatshit:

[Soundy]

That's what I was trying to say. It is NOT just the taxpayer of CoV.. it is the whole province.. then it is the whole country. Resources are pulled all over the province.


Did you miss the part where CoV homeowners are getting smacked with a property tax increase to cover the additional EMS costs for the spike in overdoses? Better them than me.

Sent from my SM-N900W8 using Tapatalk

[6o4__boi]

Addicts now using needles from naloxone kits to shoot drugs, say paramedics | Globalnews.ca (http://globalnews.ca/news/3152603/addicts-now-using-needles-from-naloxone-kits-to-shoot-drugs-say-paramedics/)

http://i.giphy.com/NRXleEopnqL3a.gif

[Traum]

Addicts now using needles from naloxone kits to shoot drugs, say paramedics | Globalnews.ca (http://globalnews.ca/news/3152603/addicts-now-using-needles-from-naloxone-kits-to-shoot-drugs-say-paramedics/)

Upsetting. Makes you wonder why we should continue spending our tax dollars to save their sorry OD a$$es.

[i-vtecyo]

Dw, the nalaxone kits are only approx. $15 each and its coming from tax payers money.

Like i said before, throwing narcan at this situation is actually giving them a sense of false security. it actually encourages them to inject more frequently thinking that they're safe, in fact, according to that article, they even resort to using 1cc vanish points from the antidote kit to inject when there are lots of free needles at safe injection sites....

A new medic truck staffed with 3 firemen is also a horrible hasty decision because it doesnt benefit ANYONE in any OTHER medical emergency besides drug overdose related (even more specifically, narcotic drug overdoses). Gregor tried to pull the "What if ur family had a medical emergency but first responders were delayed as they were too busy dealing with OD's?" Well first of all, im glad no one in my family or any of my friends are addicted to opiods.. Secondly, fire lacks medical equipment and training such as different type of drugs to intervene with other types of emergencies and in addition, an EMR course is only 2 weeks in duration or a FR course is only 1 week. Finally, a new medic truck continues to lack the ability to transport as they are STILL required to wait for paramedics to arrive..

Only a small % of these guys want help and the rest of them would rather die before they seek change. Maybe instead of throwing all our hard earned tax money on this whole population, they should find a better place to start.. Maybe by focusing on the group that actually wants help whether its opening more rehabs centers as the wait list is approximately 6 months and most of them die before they even get in to the program.

[corollagtSr5]

British Columbians open to legalizing hard drugs, survey says - British Columbia - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/british-columbians-open-to-legalizing-hard-drugs-survey-says-1.3915457?campaign_id=A100)

[N.V.M.]

British Columbians open to legalizing hard drugs, survey says - British Columbia - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/british-columbians-open-to-legalizing-hard-drugs-survey-says-1.3915457?campaign_id=A100)

They surveyed 500 people and claim 2/3's of British Columbians support this. Fuck that. What a bunch of shit.

[DragonChi]

I wonder how they got that sample. Phone calls, or survey outside a weed shop?

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15727115_253052511775073_2874339168872171145_n.jpg ?oh=9cdcdfbb22a4c5cd79a256cc109407c0&oe=58E053F9

Have not fact checked, but seems in line with what I've read.

[Presto]

Legalize all of it!

Apart from all the other common-sense reasons, it's a purely fiscal, non-bleeding heart perspective that makes sense.

[flagella]

I wonder how they got that sample. Phone calls, or survey outside a weed shop?

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15727115_253052511775073_2874339168872171145_n.jpg ?oh=9cdcdfbb22a4c5cd79a256cc109407c0&oe=58E053F9

Have not fact checked, but seems in line with what I've read.

Is this a joke? It's probably not even fucking true first of all. And also, there are many more factors that play into drug issues in the states, one of which being its proximity to Mexico.

[DragonChi]

Portugal decriminalised drugs 14 years ago ? and now hardly anyone dies from overdosing | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/portugal-decriminalised-drugs-14-years-ago-and-now-hardly-anyone-dies-from-overdosing-10301780.html)

google is such a wonderful thing.

[corollagtSr5]

When you think about it, if a person leads to the path of drugs and gets prosecuted he can no longer get a decent job, which leads to crime. If it's decriminalized the person can get treated through rehab instead of being prosecuted. The person than can continue on to living a normal life and contributing to society. Instead of looking at these people as criminals they look at them as health/medical issue and how they should treat them instead of putting them in a cage and having to deal with it themselves. Portugal led this path.

[BeefCake4000]

https://youtu.be/F1ojeXgyAu0

[MrPhreak]

.

[quasi]

^^

The problem with that strategy is if people aren't ready to quit they aren't going to quit. That also perpetuates the problem of the system throwing good money after bad by spending money to try and rehabilitate those who won't accept it, rehab isn't cheap.

I think it's good in theory but cost out versus reward it just isn't there. In my experience the best way to help someone is by not helping them at all. If you turn your back on them give them no avenue to turn to either they'll come around or they won't but the choice is theirs and theirs only.

[6o4__boi]

- Dig a massive hole
- Free all you can do fentanyl
- Build condo on top
- Profit

But in all seriousness, fuck junkies. I'm sick of society babying these plugs. Yeah your life sucks but so does every Dick and Harry and their mothers. Except most aren't dumb enough to do stuff that'd end em on the spot and need a revival every second hour every day.

[hchang]

You can't help somebody who doesn't want help.

It's the life they chose, yes a burden to our tax dollars but its something we have to live with. I'd rather tax dollars be spent taking care of our own, rather than other countries who should be fending for themselves.

[CivicBlues]

Is anyone else starting to think this crisis was started by the guberment to kill off junkies and to solve the homeless problem? Kinda like CIA and crack-cocaine in the 80s?

#CiC#Consipracy#thetruthisoutthere WutFace

[6o4__boi]

Didn't we already establish that it was started by developers who wanted the prime lands junkies are roosting on?

:troll:

[Drow]

if junkies knew they wouldnt get any help if they OD, theyd prob be more careful and not junk out as much

[Hondaracer]

if junkies knew they wouldnt get any help if they OD, theyd prob be more careful and not junk out as much

Doubt it.

[MrPhreak]

.

[Mr.HappySilp]

Why not ship them off to a remote island and air bite them some basic supplies each month. Every six months have docs go check on them. Those that no longer addicted can come back. Those that aren't stay on the island. If they die then so be it.

[MarkyMark]

if junkies knew they wouldnt get any help if they OD, theyd prob be more careful and not junk out as much

I highly doubt that even crosses their mind as they light up the crack pipe.

[ssjGoku69]

:derp:Why not ship them off to a remote island and air bite them some basic supplies each month. Every six months have docs go check on them. Those that no longer addicted can come back. Those that aren't stay on the island. If they die then so be it.

Soo.. Australia?

[ZN6]

:derp:

Soo.. Australia?

LOL i thought the exact same thing.

[ZN6]

Is anyone else starting to think this crisis was started by the guberment to kill off junkies and to solve the homeless problem? Kinda like CIA and crack-cocaine in the 80s?

#CiC#Consipracy#thetruthisoutthere WutFace

It *is* keeping the paramedics busy and driving spending.

[Spoon]

Why not ship them off to a remote island and air bite them some basic supplies each month. Every six months have docs go check on them. Those that no longer addicted can come back. Those that aren't stay on the island. If they die then so be it.

Might as well monetize it. Survivors or Hunger Games? :considered:

[Hondaracer]

Instead of helping out people like in that video (a Canadian citizen with 3 children) were more concerned with hosting them refugees in the Davie sandman at $300/night

People like that in addiction were at one time decent people, addictions hit all sorts of people and while I used to be moreso on the end of let them all die, it's a really sad state of affairs we're currently in

[Manic!]

Instead of helping out people like in that video (a Canadian citizen with 3 children) were more concerned with hosting them refugees in the Davie sandman at $300/night

People like that in addiction were at one time decent people, addictions hit all sorts of people and while I used to be moreso on the end of let them all die, it's a really sad state of affairs we're currently in

This cost over a 100K for the few weeks it was up.

Nanaimo city hall closes over drug-use site safety worry (http://www.timescolonist.com/news/local/nanaimo-city-hall-closes-over-drug-use-site-safety-worry-1.5796288)

refugees may cost us some money at first but they will become productive members of society and pay taxes. Junkies on the other hand will just continue to drain resources.